{"id":150612,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150612","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8fc09d97f3151fdf81c06b0cbbdb2a7aeef14c05a86b4f80f8ba9b0039caa7a6620d634c767349af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"11:23:36 - 11:29:42","影片長度":"00:06:06","會議時間":"2024-03-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部、教育部、衛生福利部、內政部警政署就「青少年法治教育與犯罪防制成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於法務部及所屬主管預算凍結項目共6案。\n【其中各案如經院會復議，則不予審查、處理】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-10"},"date":"2024-03-28","duration":366,"end_time":"2024-03-28T11:29:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-28T11:23:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1060,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（11時23分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請法務部部長？"],["主席：有請法務部蔡部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長好，今天在這個委員會當中，大家對敦品中學的事件都已經討論非常多了，我就跳過去，我只想瞭解一下，我查了一下歷史，有關少年在矯正學校裡面聚眾滋事，比較大的就是1996年在新竹；2015年成年受刑人挾持典獄長是在我們高雄；現在就是敦品。部長，你知道嗎？青少年的受刑人跟成年受刑人要集體擾事，你覺得他們的差異點在哪裡？"],["蔡部長清祥：青少年當然比較衝動一點，所以有時候可以事先做防範，那成年者的危險性會更高，我想他們還是有不同的特質，還有管理上的不同……"],["柯委員志恩：我想部長你可能對青少年不太清楚，因為目前來說的話，青少年為什麼……以昨天敦品來看，3個小時的處理，你知道就發展心理學來說，青少年除了有一些以自我為中心之外，他們還有假想性觀眾這樣的情節，更何況是從眾，所以他們其實在叫囂、聚眾時，對他們來說是一個英雄化的化身，他們是從眾，他們會非常希望能夠引起非常大的注意力，跟成年人目的性的想要越獄是完全不一樣的。","我接下來再請問部長，如果你沒有搞清楚青少年為什麼會犯罪，我們只知道他犯罪完之後，從後續的行為表現來看我們要做怎麼樣的處理、做怎麼樣的懲戒，這樣永遠沒辦法解決問題。","接下來看下面一個，雖然犯罪的少年犯不斷增加，這個數據會說話，數據增加有它的背景，那你有沒有看過、有沒有去分析過他犯罪的樣態，有沒有不一樣？1996年跟今天，你們有沒有去做分析？樣態有沒有什麼不一樣？"],["蔡部長清祥：確實有不同，現在的樣態，詐欺犯反而是增加的，過去是毒品比較嚴重。"],["柯委員志恩：還有青少年如果陷入在比較是傷人，刺傷人傷的話，他們的殘酷指數跟過去來說是完全不一樣的，一般來說，如果有憂鬱或自殘，他覺得看著血的流出會比他的心痛更能夠紓解，我只是說，不是只有人數增加，你們要分析他們不同的樣態和殘酷指數。","我就要回歸到割喉案，那個是既準又快速，這在過去是很少發生的，不是只有臺灣發生，是全世界都發生，所以我今天站在這個地方，我不去討論敦品，你們已經討論非常多了，我是從青少年的心理發展探討，如果說法務部在這一方面沒有辦法做到預防，他們從眾、自戀，他們以自我為中心、有假想性的觀眾，所以他們發生事情時需要透過英雄化展現，而你們沒有辦法好好在這個地方做預先的防範、瞭解他們的心理，我告訴你們，法務部對於這些人的方式真的有點落伍了。","接下來我們就來看看，很多人就是要以割喉案為案，我記得教育部部長馬上就說：喔，我們中間有個銜接點，我們應該立刻給他回到學校。部長，如果是一個非常嚴重，而且已經是到割喉這樣的案件，類似這樣比較殘酷的暴力行為，你認為從少觀所……因為少觀所最多只能關個3個月吧，然後矯正學校大概最多2年，而且2年還很少，這樣類別的人回到學校去或是後續的接觸，你覺得同意嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為時間是法律規定的、法官所判決的，對於他回歸以後的銜接是很重要的。"],["柯委員志恩：是。"],["蔡部長清祥：出校以前我們就要……"],["柯委員志恩：你覺得應該被放回學校嗎？在這個比較殘忍的樣態上，你覺得適合回學校嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：也要尊重他，到底他是要就學還是要訓練……"],["柯委員志恩：他要回學校又可以英雄化的象徵，你不知道，他只要能夠被懲處，把他懲處的最嚴重，則是更英雄的表徵啊！青少年耶！你知不知道這個心態啊？他回學校就可以更「大尾」耶！"],["蔡部長清祥：我們會通知學校要密切注意。"],["柯委員志恩：天啊！你通知學校……"],["蔡部長清祥：他要就學，不能不讓他去……"],["柯委員志恩：所以這就是你們要有一個評估機制，不能他要就學……"],["蔡部長清祥：有、有。"],["柯委員志恩：他是根據他15歲、16歲、17歲的判斷，你就把他放回學校去，你把學校的安全放在什麼地方？而且教育部，我說實在的，要有什麼基地？還希望民間團體去做，你覺得有可能嗎？有24小時的嗎？要設在哪裡？部長，我只覺得每一次犯罪問題出來，你們就講了一大堆，像剛剛提到那些關於少輔會做的事情，又包括諮商、輔導、社會安全網，這有可能嗎？這是我所點出最大的問題，你們都是從行為發生之後來看怎麼防堵、怎麼樣戒備，你們沒有看到行為之前他們整個的發展，他不適合回學校。如果你們沒有好好的來做一些評估的話，像這種暴力犯罪，你們真的需要有一個更中介的地方，但是我求教育部，真的是很困難！因為你們目前連地點、連做了什麼地方、有沒有24小時，都沒有！還要寄望民間團體來做這種事情，哪有可能？法務部應該要承擔起這個部分，我還是強烈要求心理的評估，不見得學校就是最終他們可以去的，也不是尊重的問題，這要有專業的評估，不要因為他想去學校而造就他的英雄傾向，反而讓我們其他人變成狗熊，好不好？鍾佳濱委員剛才提到了，這絕對不是養幾隻小狗就可以撫慰他們受傷、創傷的心靈，這是兩碼事情。"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯委員，謝謝蔡部長。","接下來有請羅委員廷瑋發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","柯志恩","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","張雅琳","吳沛憶","鄭天財Sra 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\"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 45.323, \"end\": 45.463, \"score\": 0.608}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 45.463, \"end\": 45.923, \"score\": 0.638}, {\"word\": \"異\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 45.923, \"end\": 46.063, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 46.063, \"end\": 48.184, \"score\": 0.676}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"青\", \"start\": 48.184, \"end\": 48.324, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 48.324, \"end\": 48.504, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 48.504, \"end\": 48.784, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 48.784, \"end\": 49.245, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 49.245, \"end\": 50.045, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"衝\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 50.045, \"end\": 51.326, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 51.326, \"end\": 51.506, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 51.506, 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\"start\": 59.89, \"end\": 60.03, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 60.03, \"end\": 60.13, \"score\": 0.634}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 60.13, \"end\": 60.35, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 60.35, \"end\": 61.311, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 61.311, \"end\": 61.911, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 61.911, \"end\": 62.412, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 62.412, \"end\": 62.512, \"score\": 0.675}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 62.512, \"end\": 62.632, \"score\": 0.515}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 62.632, \"end\": 62.792, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 62.792, \"end\": 62.872, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 62.872, \"end\": 62.892, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 62.892, \"end\": 62.912, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 62.912, \"end\": 63.492, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"青\", \"start\": 63.492, \"end\": 63.632, \"score\": 0.622}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 63.632, \"end\": 63.792, \"score\": 0.584}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 63.792, \"end\": 63.892, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 63.892, \"end\": 64.012, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 64.012, \"end\": 64.092, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 64.092, \"end\": 64.333, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 64.333, \"end\": 64.633, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 64.633, \"end\": 64.653, \"score\": 0.983}]}, {\"start\": 65.313, \"end\": 69.097, \"text\": \"因為目前來說的話青少年為什麼以昨天蹲餅來看的話三個小時的處理你知道青少年常常就發展心理學來臉裡面來說的話他們除了有一些以自我為中心之外他們還有假想性的觀眾這樣的一個情節更何況說是從眾所以他們其實在叫囂在聚眾的時候對他們來說是他們英雄化的一個化身\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 65.313, \"end\": 65.874, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 65.874, \"end\": 66.074, \"score\": 0.61}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 66.074, \"end\": 66.194, 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357.41, \"score\": 0.254}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 357.41, \"end\": 357.43, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"蔡\", \"start\": 357.43, \"end\": 357.45, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 357.45, \"end\": 357.47, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,628 --> 00:00:09,399\n謝謝主席,我們是不是請法務部?有請法務部蔡部長\n\n2\n00:00:13,407 --> 00:00:37,639\n委員好部長好我想今天在這個委員會當中大家對於端品中學的這個事件都已經討論非常多了我就跳過去我只想了解一下我們我查一下的歷史在跟有關於少年就是在我們矯正學校裡面聚眾的這個姿勢的話比較大的就在1996年大概就是在新竹然後呢接下來成年甲齒典獄長大概在2015在我們高雄然後現在就是端品\n\n3\n00:00:38,419 --> 00:01:04,653\n部長你知道嗎青少年的受刑人跟成年受刑人他們要集體擾事你覺得他們的差異點在哪裡青少年當然比較衝動一點所以有時候可以事先做防範那成年的當然他的威脅性會更高所以我想他們還是有不同的特質還有那我想部長你可能對青少年就不太清楚\n\n4\n00:01:05,313 --> 00:01:09,097\n因為目前來說的話青少年為什麼以昨天蹲餅來看的話三個小時的處理你知道青少年常常就發展心理學來臉裡面來說的話他們除了有一些以自我為中心之外他們還有假想性的觀眾這樣的一個情節更何況說是從眾所以他們其實在叫囂在聚眾的時候對他們來說是他們英雄化的一個化身\n\n5\n00:01:28,777 --> 00:01:43,681\n所以他們是從眾他們會非常的希望能夠引撫非常大的一個一個注意力跟成年人成年人目的性的想要越獄那個是完全不一樣的方法我接下來再請問部長如果你沒有搞清楚青少年為什麼會犯罪永遠我們只是他犯罪完之後你從後續的行為表現來看看我們要做怎麼樣的處理做怎麼樣懲戒你永遠沒辦法解決問題接下來我們來看下面一個\n\n6\n00:01:53,443 --> 00:02:21,899\n雖然是我們這個犯罪的這個已經是少年犯不斷的一個增加這些我想這個數據會來說法數據增加有他的背景那你有沒有看過有沒有去分析過他犯罪的樣態有沒有不一樣跟1996年跟今天你們有沒有去做一個分析樣態有沒有什麼不一樣確實有不同那現在的樣態炸氣犯反而是增加的多的那過去的話是像毒品會比較嚴重\n\n7\n00:02:23,161 --> 00:02:47,735\n還有青少年如果再陷入在一個比較是對傷人的話次傷人傷人的話他們的殘酷的指數跟過去來說是完全不一樣的就像是我們一般來說目前如果說你有憂鬱或幹嘛你的自殘他會看著血的流出他會覺得比他的心痛來說更能夠紓解所以我只是說不是只有人數增加你要分析他們不同的樣態那個殘酷指數就像我就要回歸到我們有關於戈壕案的部分\n\n8\n00:02:50,256 --> 00:02:54,501\n即準確及快速,這在過去來說是很少去發生的。這是不是只有台灣發生,是全世界的一個發生。所以我今天站在這個地方,我不去討論燈品裡面討論非常多了。我是從青少年的發展的一個心理,如果說我們法務部在這一方面沒有辦法去做到,他們從眾,他們自戀,\n\n9\n00:03:09,540 --> 00:03:26,045\n他們以自我為中心他們假想形成觀眾所以他們發生事情的時候他們是需要透過這個部分來英雄化這個部分然後呢你沒有辦法好好在這個地方做預先的反犯瞭解他們的心理我告訴你我們法務部對於這些人的這些方式來說真的是有點落伍了\n\n10\n00:03:26,365 --> 00:03:41,215\n那接下來我們就來看看很多人就想以歌喉案為案的話我記得教育部部長馬上就說我們中間有個銜接點我們立刻應該給他回到學校部長你認為如果是一個非常嚴重而且已經是到歌喉這樣的案件當中你覺得讓他\n\n11\n00:03:42,576 --> 00:03:57,922\n類似像這樣比較殘酷的這個暴力的行為你認為從少官因為少官所最多只能給我關個三個月吧然後呢矯正學校大概最多兩年而且兩年還很少以這樣子的一個類別的人回到學校去或回到後續的接觸你覺得同意嗎\n\n12\n00:03:59,534 --> 00:04:13,660\n時間因為這是法律規定法官所判決的但是對於他回歸以後的銜接這是很重要的是對他出校以前你覺得應該放回學校嗎在這個樣態上面比較殘忍的狀況你覺得適合回學校嗎\n\n13\n00:04:17,542 --> 00:04:31,733\n也要尊重他到底他是要救學還是要他要回學校又可以英雄化的象徵你不知道他只要是被能夠懲處你把他懲處得最嚴重他是更英雄的表徵啊青少年啊你知不知道這個心態啊他回學校去又可以\n\n14\n00:04:32,193 --> 00:04:32,853\n有可能嗎?你有24小時的嗎?要設在哪裡?\n\n15\n00:04:56,081 --> 00:05:00,703\n部長我只覺得每一次犯罪這個問題出來你們就講了一大堆像剛剛提到的那些什麼有關於這個少府會少府會做的事情又是要包括資商要輔導要社會安全法靠柯領所以這是我所點出最大的問題你們都是從行為發生之後來看看怎麼防堵怎麼樣來戒備你們沒有看到行為之前他們整個的一個發展他不適合回學校\n\n16\n00:05:21,990 --> 00:05:35,599\n這個東西你如果沒有好好的來做一些評估的話他是這樣這種暴力犯罪的話你真的需要有一個更終極的地方但是我求教育部真的是很困難因為你們現在目前連地點連做了什麼地方有沒有24小時都沒有還要寄望民間團體來做這種事情靠柯領所以法務部你應該承擔起這個部分我還是強烈的要求評估心理的評估\n\n17\n00:05:45,425 --> 00:05:57,470\n不見的學校就是最終他們可以的,也不是尊重的問題,只有專業的評估,不要因為他想學校造就他的英雄傾向而讓我們其他人反而變成狗熊,好不好?鍾佳濱委員剛剛提到了,這絕對不是養幾隻小狗可以來撫慰他們受傷、創傷的心靈,這是兩碼事情。好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝蔡部長。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6628\t9399\t謝謝主席,我們是不是請法務部?有請法務部蔡部長\n13407\t37639\t委員好部長好我想今天在這個委員會當中大家對於端品中學的這個事件都已經討論非常多了我就跳過去我只想了解一下我們我查一下的歷史在跟有關於少年就是在我們矯正學校裡面聚眾的這個姿勢的話比較大的就在1996年大概就是在新竹然後呢接下來成年甲齒典獄長大概在2015在我們高雄然後現在就是端品\n38419\t64653\t部長你知道嗎青少年的受刑人跟成年受刑人他們要集體擾事你覺得他們的差異點在哪裡青少年當然比較衝動一點所以有時候可以事先做防範那成年的當然他的威脅性會更高所以我想他們還是有不同的特質還有那我想部長你可能對青少年就不太清楚\n65313\t69097\t因為目前來說的話青少年為什麼以昨天蹲餅來看的話三個小時的處理你知道青少年常常就發展心理學來臉裡面來說的話他們除了有一些以自我為中心之外他們還有假想性的觀眾這樣的一個情節更何況說是從眾所以他們其實在叫囂在聚眾的時候對他們來說是他們英雄化的一個化身\n88777\t103681\t所以他們是從眾他們會非常的希望能夠引撫非常大的一個一個注意力跟成年人成年人目的性的想要越獄那個是完全不一樣的方法我接下來再請問部長如果你沒有搞清楚青少年為什麼會犯罪永遠我們只是他犯罪完之後你從後續的行為表現來看看我們要做怎麼樣的處理做怎麼樣懲戒你永遠沒辦法解決問題接下來我們來看下面一個\n113443\t141899\t雖然是我們這個犯罪的這個已經是少年犯不斷的一個增加這些我想這個數據會來說法數據增加有他的背景那你有沒有看過有沒有去分析過他犯罪的樣態有沒有不一樣跟1996年跟今天你們有沒有去做一個分析樣態有沒有什麼不一樣確實有不同那現在的樣態炸氣犯反而是增加的多的那過去的話是像毒品會比較嚴重\n143161\t167735\t還有青少年如果再陷入在一個比較是對傷人的話次傷人傷人的話他們的殘酷的指數跟過去來說是完全不一樣的就像是我們一般來說目前如果說你有憂鬱或幹嘛你的自殘他會看著血的流出他會覺得比他的心痛來說更能夠紓解所以我只是說不是只有人數增加你要分析他們不同的樣態那個殘酷指數就像我就要回歸到我們有關於戈壕案的部分\n170256\t174501\t即準確及快速,這在過去來說是很少去發生的。這是不是只有台灣發生,是全世界的一個發生。所以我今天站在這個地方,我不去討論燈品裡面討論非常多了。我是從青少年的發展的一個心理,如果說我們法務部在這一方面沒有辦法去做到,他們從眾,他們自戀,\n189540\t206045\t他們以自我為中心他們假想形成觀眾所以他們發生事情的時候他們是需要透過這個部分來英雄化這個部分然後呢你沒有辦法好好在這個地方做預先的反犯瞭解他們的心理我告訴你我們法務部對於這些人的這些方式來說真的是有點落伍了\n206365\t221215\t那接下來我們就來看看很多人就想以歌喉案為案的話我記得教育部部長馬上就說我們中間有個銜接點我們立刻應該給他回到學校部長你認為如果是一個非常嚴重而且已經是到歌喉這樣的案件當中你覺得讓他\n222576\t237922\t類似像這樣比較殘酷的這個暴力的行為你認為從少官因為少官所最多只能給我關個三個月吧然後呢矯正學校大概最多兩年而且兩年還很少以這樣子的一個類別的人回到學校去或回到後續的接觸你覺得同意嗎\n239534\t253660\t時間因為這是法律規定法官所判決的但是對於他回歸以後的銜接這是很重要的是對他出校以前你覺得應該放回學校嗎在這個樣態上面比較殘忍的狀況你覺得適合回學校嗎\n257542\t271733\t也要尊重他到底他是要救學還是要他要回學校又可以英雄化的象徵你不知道他只要是被能夠懲處你把他懲處得最嚴重他是更英雄的表徵啊青少年啊你知不知道這個心態啊他回學校去又可以\n272193\t272853\t有可能嗎?你有24小時的嗎?要設在哪裡?\n296081\t300703\t部長我只覺得每一次犯罪這個問題出來你們就講了一大堆像剛剛提到的那些什麼有關於這個少府會少府會做的事情又是要包括資商要輔導要社會安全法靠柯領所以這是我所點出最大的問題你們都是從行為發生之後來看看怎麼防堵怎麼樣來戒備你們沒有看到行為之前他們整個的一個發展他不適合回學校\n321990\t335599\t這個東西你如果沒有好好的來做一些評估的話他是這樣這種暴力犯罪的話你真的需要有一個更終極的地方但是我求教育部真的是很困難因為你們現在目前連地點連做了什麼地方有沒有24小時都沒有還要寄望民間團體來做這種事情靠柯領所以法務部你應該承擔起這個部分我還是強烈的要求評估心理的評估\n345425\t357470\t不見的學校就是最終他們可以的,也不是尊重的問題,只有專業的評估,不要因為他想學校造就他的英雄傾向而讓我們其他人反而變成狗熊,好不好?鍾佳濱委員剛剛提到了,這絕對不是養幾隻小狗可以來撫慰他們受傷、創傷的心靈,這是兩碼事情。好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝蔡部長。\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請法務部?有請法務部蔡部長\n委員好部長好我想今天在這個委員會當中大家對於端品中學的這個事件都已經討論非常多了我就跳過去我只想了解一下我們我查一下的歷史在跟有關於少年就是在我們矯正學校裡面聚眾的這個姿勢的話比較大的就在1996年大概就是在新竹然後呢接下來成年甲齒典獄長大概在2015在我們高雄然後現在就是端品\n部長你知道嗎青少年的受刑人跟成年受刑人他們要集體擾事你覺得他們的差異點在哪裡青少年當然比較衝動一點所以有時候可以事先做防範那成年的當然他的威脅性會更高所以我想他們還是有不同的特質還有那我想部長你可能對青少年就不太清楚\n因為目前來說的話青少年為什麼以昨天蹲餅來看的話三個小時的處理你知道青少年常常就發展心理學來臉裡面來說的話他們除了有一些以自我為中心之外他們還有假想性的觀眾這樣的一個情節更何況說是從眾所以他們其實在叫囂在聚眾的時候對他們來說是他們英雄化的一個化身\n所以他們是從眾他們會非常的希望能夠引撫非常大的一個一個注意力跟成年人成年人目的性的想要越獄那個是完全不一樣的方法我接下來再請問部長如果你沒有搞清楚青少年為什麼會犯罪永遠我們只是他犯罪完之後你從後續的行為表現來看看我們要做怎麼樣的處理做怎麼樣懲戒你永遠沒辦法解決問題接下來我們來看下面一個\n雖然是我們這個犯罪的這個已經是少年犯不斷的一個增加這些我想這個數據會來說法數據增加有他的背景那你有沒有看過有沒有去分析過他犯罪的樣態有沒有不一樣跟1996年跟今天你們有沒有去做一個分析樣態有沒有什麼不一樣確實有不同那現在的樣態炸氣犯反而是增加的多的那過去的話是像毒品會比較嚴重\n還有青少年如果再陷入在一個比較是對傷人的話次傷人傷人的話他們的殘酷的指數跟過去來說是完全不一樣的就像是我們一般來說目前如果說你有憂鬱或幹嘛你的自殘他會看著血的流出他會覺得比他的心痛來說更能夠紓解所以我只是說不是只有人數增加你要分析他們不同的樣態那個殘酷指數就像我就要回歸到我們有關於戈壕案的部分\n即準確及快速,這在過去來說是很少去發生的。這是不是只有台灣發生,是全世界的一個發生。所以我今天站在這個地方,我不去討論燈品裡面討論非常多了。我是從青少年的發展的一個心理,如果說我們法務部在這一方面沒有辦法去做到,他們從眾,他們自戀,\n他們以自我為中心他們假想形成觀眾所以他們發生事情的時候他們是需要透過這個部分來英雄化這個部分然後呢你沒有辦法好好在這個地方做預先的反犯瞭解他們的心理我告訴你我們法務部對於這些人的這些方式來說真的是有點落伍了\n那接下來我們就來看看很多人就想以歌喉案為案的話我記得教育部部長馬上就說我們中間有個銜接點我們立刻應該給他回到學校部長你認為如果是一個非常嚴重而且已經是到歌喉這樣的案件當中你覺得讓他\n類似像這樣比較殘酷的這個暴力的行為你認為從少官因為少官所最多只能給我關個三個月吧然後呢矯正學校大概最多兩年而且兩年還很少以這樣子的一個類別的人回到學校去或回到後續的接觸你覺得同意嗎\n時間因為這是法律規定法官所判決的但是對於他回歸以後的銜接這是很重要的是對他出校以前你覺得應該放回學校嗎在這個樣態上面比較殘忍的狀況你覺得適合回學校嗎\n也要尊重他到底他是要救學還是要他要回學校又可以英雄化的象徵你不知道他只要是被能夠懲處你把他懲處得最嚴重他是更英雄的表徵啊青少年啊你知不知道這個心態啊他回學校去又可以\n有可能嗎?你有24小時的嗎?要設在哪裡?\n部長我只覺得每一次犯罪這個問題出來你們就講了一大堆像剛剛提到的那些什麼有關於這個少府會少府會做的事情又是要包括資商要輔導要社會安全法靠柯領所以這是我所點出最大的問題你們都是從行為發生之後來看看怎麼防堵怎麼樣來戒備你們沒有看到行為之前他們整個的一個發展他不適合回學校\n這個東西你如果沒有好好的來做一些評估的話他是這樣這種暴力犯罪的話你真的需要有一個更終極的地方但是我求教育部真的是很困難因為你們現在目前連地點連做了什麼地方有沒有24小時都沒有還要寄望民間團體來做這種事情靠柯領所以法務部你應該承擔起這個部分我還是強烈的要求評估心理的評估\n不見的學校就是最終他們可以的,也不是尊重的問題,只有專業的評估,不要因為他想學校造就他的英雄傾向而讓我們其他人反而變成狗熊,好不好?鍾佳濱委員剛剛提到了,這絕對不是養幾隻小狗可以來撫慰他們受傷、創傷的心靈,這是兩碼事情。好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝蔡部長。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.628 --> 00:09.399\n謝謝主席,我們是不是請法務部?有請法務部蔡部長\n\n00:13.407 --> 00:37.639\n委員好部長好我想今天在這個委員會當中大家對於端品中學的這個事件都已經討論非常多了我就跳過去我只想了解一下我們我查一下的歷史在跟有關於少年就是在我們矯正學校裡面聚眾的這個姿勢的話比較大的就在1996年大概就是在新竹然後呢接下來成年甲齒典獄長大概在2015在我們高雄然後現在就是端品\n\n00:38.419 --> 01:04.653\n部長你知道嗎青少年的受刑人跟成年受刑人他們要集體擾事你覺得他們的差異點在哪裡青少年當然比較衝動一點所以有時候可以事先做防範那成年的當然他的威脅性會更高所以我想他們還是有不同的特質還有那我想部長你可能對青少年就不太清楚\n\n01:05.313 --> 01:09.097\n因為目前來說的話青少年為什麼以昨天蹲餅來看的話三個小時的處理你知道青少年常常就發展心理學來臉裡面來說的話他們除了有一些以自我為中心之外他們還有假想性的觀眾這樣的一個情節更何況說是從眾所以他們其實在叫囂在聚眾的時候對他們來說是他們英雄化的一個化身\n\n01:28.777 --> 01:43.681\n所以他們是從眾他們會非常的希望能夠引撫非常大的一個一個注意力跟成年人成年人目的性的想要越獄那個是完全不一樣的方法我接下來再請問部長如果你沒有搞清楚青少年為什麼會犯罪永遠我們只是他犯罪完之後你從後續的行為表現來看看我們要做怎麼樣的處理做怎麼樣懲戒你永遠沒辦法解決問題接下來我們來看下面一個\n\n01:53.443 --> 02:21.899\n雖然是我們這個犯罪的這個已經是少年犯不斷的一個增加這些我想這個數據會來說法數據增加有他的背景那你有沒有看過有沒有去分析過他犯罪的樣態有沒有不一樣跟1996年跟今天你們有沒有去做一個分析樣態有沒有什麼不一樣確實有不同那現在的樣態炸氣犯反而是增加的多的那過去的話是像毒品會比較嚴重\n\n02:23.161 --> 02:47.735\n還有青少年如果再陷入在一個比較是對傷人的話次傷人傷人的話他們的殘酷的指數跟過去來說是完全不一樣的就像是我們一般來說目前如果說你有憂鬱或幹嘛你的自殘他會看著血的流出他會覺得比他的心痛來說更能夠紓解所以我只是說不是只有人數增加你要分析他們不同的樣態那個殘酷指數就像我就要回歸到我們有關於戈壕案的部分\n\n02:50.256 --> 02:54.501\n即準確及快速,這在過去來說是很少去發生的。這是不是只有台灣發生,是全世界的一個發生。所以我今天站在這個地方,我不去討論燈品裡面討論非常多了。我是從青少年的發展的一個心理,如果說我們法務部在這一方面沒有辦法去做到,他們從眾,他們自戀,\n\n03:09.540 --> 03:26.045\n他們以自我為中心他們假想形成觀眾所以他們發生事情的時候他們是需要透過這個部分來英雄化這個部分然後呢你沒有辦法好好在這個地方做預先的反犯瞭解他們的心理我告訴你我們法務部對於這些人的這些方式來說真的是有點落伍了\n\n03:26.365 --> 03:41.215\n那接下來我們就來看看很多人就想以歌喉案為案的話我記得教育部部長馬上就說我們中間有個銜接點我們立刻應該給他回到學校部長你認為如果是一個非常嚴重而且已經是到歌喉這樣的案件當中你覺得讓他\n\n03:42.576 --> 03:57.922\n類似像這樣比較殘酷的這個暴力的行為你認為從少官因為少官所最多只能給我關個三個月吧然後呢矯正學校大概最多兩年而且兩年還很少以這樣子的一個類別的人回到學校去或回到後續的接觸你覺得同意嗎\n\n03:59.534 --> 04:13.660\n時間因為這是法律規定法官所判決的但是對於他回歸以後的銜接這是很重要的是對他出校以前你覺得應該放回學校嗎在這個樣態上面比較殘忍的狀況你覺得適合回學校嗎\n\n04:17.542 --> 04:31.733\n也要尊重他到底他是要救學還是要他要回學校又可以英雄化的象徵你不知道他只要是被能夠懲處你把他懲處得最嚴重他是更英雄的表徵啊青少年啊你知不知道這個心態啊他回學校去又可以\n\n04:32.193 --> 04:32.853\n有可能嗎?你有24小時的嗎?要設在哪裡?\n\n04:56.081 --> 05:00.703\n部長我只覺得每一次犯罪這個問題出來你們就講了一大堆像剛剛提到的那些什麼有關於這個少府會少府會做的事情又是要包括資商要輔導要社會安全法靠柯領所以這是我所點出最大的問題你們都是從行為發生之後來看看怎麼防堵怎麼樣來戒備你們沒有看到行為之前他們整個的一個發展他不適合回學校\n\n05:21.990 --> 05:35.599\n這個東西你如果沒有好好的來做一些評估的話他是這樣這種暴力犯罪的話你真的需要有一個更終極的地方但是我求教育部真的是很困難因為你們現在目前連地點連做了什麼地方有沒有24小時都沒有還要寄望民間團體來做這種事情靠柯領所以法務部你應該承擔起這個部分我還是強烈的要求評估心理的評估\n\n05:45.425 --> 05:57.470\n不見的學校就是最終他們可以的,也不是尊重的問題,只有專業的評估,不要因為他想學校造就他的英雄傾向而讓我們其他人反而變成狗熊,好不好?鍾佳濱委員剛剛提到了,這絕對不是養幾隻小狗可以來撫慰他們受傷、創傷的心靈,這是兩碼事情。好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝蔡部長。\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.628,"end":9.399,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請法務部?有請法務部蔡部長"},{"start":13.407,"end":37.639,"text":"委員好部長好我想今天在這個委員會當中大家對於端品中學的這個事件都已經討論非常多了我就跳過去我只想了解一下我們我查一下的歷史在跟有關於少年就是在我們矯正學校裡面聚眾的這個姿勢的話比較大的就在1996年大概就是在新竹然後呢接下來成年甲齒典獄長大概在2015在我們高雄然後現在就是端品"},{"start":38.419,"end":64.653,"text":"部長你知道嗎青少年的受刑人跟成年受刑人他們要集體擾事你覺得他們的差異點在哪裡青少年當然比較衝動一點所以有時候可以事先做防範那成年的當然他的威脅性會更高所以我想他們還是有不同的特質還有那我想部長你可能對青少年就不太清楚"},{"start":65.313,"end":69.097,"text":"因為目前來說的話青少年為什麼以昨天蹲餅來看的話三個小時的處理你知道青少年常常就發展心理學來臉裡面來說的話他們除了有一些以自我為中心之外他們還有假想性的觀眾這樣的一個情節更何況說是從眾所以他們其實在叫囂在聚眾的時候對他們來說是他們英雄化的一個化身"},{"start":88.777,"end":103.681,"text":"所以他們是從眾他們會非常的希望能夠引撫非常大的一個一個注意力跟成年人成年人目的性的想要越獄那個是完全不一樣的方法我接下來再請問部長如果你沒有搞清楚青少年為什麼會犯罪永遠我們只是他犯罪完之後你從後續的行為表現來看看我們要做怎麼樣的處理做怎麼樣懲戒你永遠沒辦法解決問題接下來我們來看下面一個"},{"start":113.443,"end":141.899,"text":"雖然是我們這個犯罪的這個已經是少年犯不斷的一個增加這些我想這個數據會來說法數據增加有他的背景那你有沒有看過有沒有去分析過他犯罪的樣態有沒有不一樣跟1996年跟今天你們有沒有去做一個分析樣態有沒有什麼不一樣確實有不同那現在的樣態炸氣犯反而是增加的多的那過去的話是像毒品會比較嚴重"},{"start":143.161,"end":167.735,"text":"還有青少年如果再陷入在一個比較是對傷人的話次傷人傷人的話他們的殘酷的指數跟過去來說是完全不一樣的就像是我們一般來說目前如果說你有憂鬱或幹嘛你的自殘他會看著血的流出他會覺得比他的心痛來說更能夠紓解所以我只是說不是只有人數增加你要分析他們不同的樣態那個殘酷指數就像我就要回歸到我們有關於戈壕案的部分"},{"start":170.256,"end":174.501,"text":"即準確及快速,這在過去來說是很少去發生的。這是不是只有台灣發生,是全世界的一個發生。所以我今天站在這個地方,我不去討論燈品裡面討論非常多了。我是從青少年的發展的一個心理,如果說我們法務部在這一方面沒有辦法去做到,他們從眾,他們自戀,"},{"start":189.54,"end":206.045,"text":"他們以自我為中心他們假想形成觀眾所以他們發生事情的時候他們是需要透過這個部分來英雄化這個部分然後呢你沒有辦法好好在這個地方做預先的反犯瞭解他們的心理我告訴你我們法務部對於這些人的這些方式來說真的是有點落伍了"},{"start":206.365,"end":221.215,"text":"那接下來我們就來看看很多人就想以歌喉案為案的話我記得教育部部長馬上就說我們中間有個銜接點我們立刻應該給他回到學校部長你認為如果是一個非常嚴重而且已經是到歌喉這樣的案件當中你覺得讓他"},{"start":222.576,"end":237.922,"text":"類似像這樣比較殘酷的這個暴力的行為你認為從少官因為少官所最多只能給我關個三個月吧然後呢矯正學校大概最多兩年而且兩年還很少以這樣子的一個類別的人回到學校去或回到後續的接觸你覺得同意嗎"},{"start":239.534,"end":253.66,"text":"時間因為這是法律規定法官所判決的但是對於他回歸以後的銜接這是很重要的是對他出校以前你覺得應該放回學校嗎在這個樣態上面比較殘忍的狀況你覺得適合回學校嗎"},{"start":257.542,"end":271.733,"text":"也要尊重他到底他是要救學還是要他要回學校又可以英雄化的象徵你不知道他只要是被能夠懲處你把他懲處得最嚴重他是更英雄的表徵啊青少年啊你知不知道這個心態啊他回學校去又可以"},{"start":272.193,"end":272.853,"text":"有可能嗎?你有24小時的嗎?要設在哪裡?"},{"start":296.081,"end":300.703,"text":"部長我只覺得每一次犯罪這個問題出來你們就講了一大堆像剛剛提到的那些什麼有關於這個少府會少府會做的事情又是要包括資商要輔導要社會安全法靠柯領所以這是我所點出最大的問題你們都是從行為發生之後來看看怎麼防堵怎麼樣來戒備你們沒有看到行為之前他們整個的一個發展他不適合回學校"},{"start":321.99,"end":335.599,"text":"這個東西你如果沒有好好的來做一些評估的話他是這樣這種暴力犯罪的話你真的需要有一個更終極的地方但是我求教育部真的是很困難因為你們現在目前連地點連做了什麼地方有沒有24小時都沒有還要寄望民間團體來做這種事情靠柯領所以法務部你應該承擔起這個部分我還是強烈的要求評估心理的評估"},{"start":345.425,"end":357.47,"text":"不見的學校就是最終他們可以的,也不是尊重的問題,只有專業的評估,不要因為他想學校造就他的英雄傾向而讓我們其他人反而變成狗熊,好不好?鍾佳濱委員剛剛提到了,這絕對不是養幾隻小狗可以來撫慰他們受傷、創傷的心靈,這是兩碼事情。好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝蔡部長。"}]}}}}