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12:50:40","影片長度":"00:06:44","會議時間":"2024-03-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「社會安全網缺失檢討及具體改進作法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就「出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n三、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結案18案（報告事項）。【第18案，如經復議則不予處理】\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-9"},"date":"2024-03-28","duration":404,"end_time":"2024-03-28T12:50:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-28T12:43:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1855,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時44分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。今天還是要針對社安網的檢討來做一些討論，目前其實是有做一個七大缺失的檢討，我們就針對社安網其中兩個說要檢討的缺失來做討論。第一個就是收出養制度以及居托人員管理制度，我們先來討論一下法規面，兒少權法第十七條是這樣說的，「依前項第一款規定進行訪視者，應評估出養之必要性，並給予必要之協助；其無出養之必要者，應建議法院不為收養之認可」，所以關鍵就在於出養必要性的定義到底是什麼。根據相關期刊論文的討論，除了要評估經濟條件之外，也要去考量他的身心狀況。像兒盟在萬國法律也有說，考量心理健康這件事情是比外質條件更重要的，我想部長您應該非常清楚這件事情。","我們現在已經非常清楚了，必要性是在這個哦！可是我們現在看到這一個檢討報告，新北市社會局說專家檢視都有依現行的法令來辦理，而且我知道當時阿嬤是說因為經濟因素，所以看起來我們的評估主因只有經濟因素嗎？這個報告到底是新北市做的，還是兒盟做的？我想衛福部應該要針對兒少權法的修法去進行更全面的討論，這個部分應該要納入考量，我們會後再約時間來討論修法的方向和主軸。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["張委員雅琳：繼續請教部長，這個法規怎麼訂，社會可以再做一些討論，但是有一個很重要的關鍵就是地方怎麼執行，所以我想問的是，我們雖然可以儘量去做到法規面很好，但是地方就是執行不力的時候，衛福部到底有什麼工具可以來糾正地方呢？可不可以請部長說明一下？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實我們跟地方的關係，大部分都基於合作啦！如果有什麼問題的話，我們就是透過協商來處理，但是衛福部這邊對地方的業務仍然有一個督導、考核的機制，所以我們每年……"],["張委員雅琳：這個考核實際上會有什麼樣子的實質影響？因為還是要考量到實質影響才有辦法積極地面對。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，少數會涉及到補助的部分，但是多數來講的話，給它面子的……"],["張委員雅琳：我想這可能也是必要手段啦！從這件事情上面，我們發現地方政府的確在執行上有一些需要去積極檢討的地方，我也希望衛福部在必要的時候可以使用相關的工具，這樣才能夠確保我們在第一線真的可以接住每一個孩子，我們都不希望再有下一個剴剴，所以我們必須要強硬地來做這件事情。","再來，針對於居家托育人員的一些檢討，現在的狀況是這樣子，我們會委託各縣市的居托中心來做這些保母的管理，如果這件事情沒有牽扯到收出養，就會回到一般的全日托或是一般日托的狀況。我想問的是，在這件事情上面，在居托管理的第十八條有講說一年要訪4次，除了收托人數之外，其他的考評都是一樣的，全日托跟一般的都是一樣的，那這件事情我想要問，全日托的保母考核是不是可以再強化一點？因為他們是24小時不間斷地持續勞動，是不是有相關的輔導機制可以來協助這些保母，或者是我們接受安置兒少保母的時候，可以去強化訓練跟托育品質的管控？這件事情我相信政府應該要來做啦！不能夠只有交給一般的民間團體，部長可以回應一下嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前大部分都有這個機制，但是委員，我跟你報告，這一次臺北市的居托中心它也犯了一個錯誤，因為這個保母是收養兩個以上的小孩，他把他放在不同的樓層，這個本身就有問題。第二個問題是，當居托中心去做檢查的時候，後來發現其中有個條件是不好的，有濃濃菸味，為什麼他第一次去檢查的時候只看一樓？他明明知道還有收托的小孩子在同一個建築裡面，應該要一起去看，而且是同一個保母啊！"],["張委員雅琳：了解，那我想問說……"],["薛部長瑞元：所以執行有問題的話，這個在……"],["張委員雅琳：對，那就是回到我們上面講的嘛！法規這樣子訂，那地方執行不力的時候，我們應該要有一些積極的作為，因為這樣才能夠真正地去接住每一個孩子。","抱歉，我再占用一點點時間。我們目前的法是沒有規定不約訪這件事情，現在就是因為第二次要去看保母的時候，保母就說他確診了，所以沒有辦法看，但是如果我們是不約訪的狀況，搞不好是有機會救回這個小孩的，所以我們現在在修托育專法，是不是可以增訂居托中心不約訪的訪視條文？我們是不是可以增訂這一點？不要再用公文的方式來通知各個保母，我們用不約訪的入法來強化它的正當性，這個部分可不可以請部長來說明一下？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個在專法的草案裡面，討論的時候是沒有討論到啦！不過委員的意見我們會斟酌。"],["張委員雅琳：這個部分我希望可以強制地去思考，好不好？因為約訪可能會有一些可以做好準備的，不約訪才能夠真正地面對問題，才能夠真正地去照顧到每一個小孩，這一點再請部長審慎地思考，把它放入專法裡面，我也會在我的版本提出這個條例，到時候也請部長支持，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，我們再來討論，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員。","接下來請賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員不在。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","接下來請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":526,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","林淑芬","陳菁徽","王育敏","廖偉翔","涂權吉","王正旭","盧縣一","郭昱晴","鄭天財Sra 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\"失\", \"start\": 7.464, \"end\": 7.484, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 7.484, \"end\": 7.504, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 7.504, \"end\": 7.524, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 7.524, \"end\": 7.544, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 7.544, \"end\": 7.584, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 7.584, \"end\": 7.704, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 7.704, \"end\": 7.724, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 7.724, \"end\": 7.784, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 7.784, \"end\": 7.864, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 7.864, \"end\": 7.905, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"齁\"}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 7.905, \"end\": 7.925, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 7.925, \"end\": 8.045, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 8.045, \"end\": 8.065, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 8.065, \"end\": 8.085, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 8.085, \"end\": 8.105, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 8.105, \"end\": 8.125, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 30.505, \"end\": 58.805, \"text\": \"我們就針對這個社安網其中的兩個缺失來兩個說要檢討的缺失來做討論第一個就是收出養制度以及居托人員管理制度那我想先在討論這件事情我們先來討論一下法規面我們的《兒上全法》第17條是這樣子說的就是說依據前項的第一款規定進行訪視者應評估出養之必要性並給予相關的協助那如果沒有出養的必要的話就建議法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 30.505, \"end\": 30.725, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 30.725, \"end\": 30.905, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 30.905, \"end\": 32.567, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 32.567, \"end\": 33.227, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"網\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 33.227, \"end\": 33.347, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 33.347, \"end\": 33.487, \"score\": 0.986}, 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\"愿不為收養之任可所以這關鍵就在於出養的必要性的定義到底是什麼那我想根據一些相關的期刊、論文都在討論就是說應該要評估除了經濟條件之外也要去考量他的身心狀況那像是這個額蒙在萬國法律也有說就是說要考量心理健康這件事情是比外職條件更重要的我想部長您應該非常清楚這件事情\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"愿\", \"start\": 59.565, \"end\": 60.046, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 60.046, \"end\": 60.406, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 60.406, \"end\": 60.806, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"養\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 60.806, \"end\": 60.946, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 60.946, \"end\": 61.146, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 61.146, \"end\": 61.627, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 61.627, \"end\": 61.727, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 61.727, \"end\": 62.347, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"鍵\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 62.347, \"end\": 62.448, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 62.448, \"end\": 62.468, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 399.908, \"end\": 400.048, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 400.048, \"end\": 400.068, \"score\": 0.286}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,162 --> 00:00:08,125\n謝謝趙偉那我們有請部長請薛部長委員好部長好那就是我們今天還是來針對社安網的一些檢討來做一些討論齁那就是目前呢我們其實是有做一個七大缺失的一個檢討嘛那我想我今天齁等我一下檢報出來了\n\n2\n00:00:30,505 --> 00:00:58,805\n我們就針對這個社安網其中的兩個缺失來兩個說要檢討的缺失來做討論第一個就是收出養制度以及居托人員管理制度那我想先在討論這件事情我們先來討論一下法規面我們的《兒上全法》第17條是這樣子說的就是說依據前項的第一款規定進行訪視者應評估出養之必要性並給予相關的協助那如果沒有出養的必要的話就建議法\n\n3\n00:00:59,565 --> 00:01:26,648\n愿不為收養之任可所以這關鍵就在於出養的必要性的定義到底是什麼那我想根據一些相關的期刊、論文都在討論就是說應該要評估除了經濟條件之外也要去考量他的身心狀況那像是這個額蒙在萬國法律也有說就是說要考量心理健康這件事情是比外職條件更重要的我想部長您應該非常清楚這件事情\n\n4\n00:01:27,930 --> 00:01:51,392\n但是我們現在已經非常清楚了必要性是在這個可是我們現在看到了這一個檢討報告這檢討報告新北市社會局說專家檢視都由依現行的法令來辦理而且我知道當時阿嬤是說是因為經濟因素所以看起來我們的評估主因只有經濟因素嗎那這個報告到底是新北市做的還是兒童做的\n\n5\n00:01:52,513 --> 00:02:13,178\n所以我想衛福部應該要針對兒少全法去做一個更全面的進行修法的討論這個部分也應該要納入這個考量那也請就是在我們會後再要約時間來討論這個修法的方向跟主軸那繼續請教部長就是這個法規怎麼定那社會可以再做一些討論但是我想很一個重要關鍵地方怎麼執行\n\n6\n00:02:14,819 --> 00:02:15,940\n其實我們跟地方的這些關係大部分都基於合作\n\n7\n00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:31,180\n主席主席\n\n8\n00:02:57,436 --> 00:03:21,944\n我想這也可能是必要手段啦必要手段我想我們這件事情從這件事情上面我們也發現地方政府的確在執行上面有一些我們還需要去積極檢討的地方那我也希望衛福部可以用必要時候相關的工具啦因為這樣才能夠確保我們在第一線的時候真的可以接住我們每一個孩子我們都不需要再有下一個凱凱那我們必須真的要強硬的來做這件事情\n\n9\n00:03:22,964 --> 00:03:47,900\n那再來就是針對於居家的托育人員的一些檢討我們現在的狀況是這樣子就是說我們會委託各縣市的居托中心來做這些保姆的管理那如果這件事情沒有牽扯到收出養就會回到一般的全日托或是一般的日托的狀況那我想問的就是說在這件事情上面我們在這個居托的管理的第18條是有講說一年要訪4次\n\n10\n00:03:49,400 --> 00:04:17,151\n那除了就是收託的人數之外其他都是考評是一樣的就是全日託跟一般的都是一樣的那這件事情我想問我們全日託的保母考核是不是可以再強化一點就例如說因為他們是24小時不間斷的勤修勞動我們是不是有相關的輔導機制可以來協助這些保母或者是說我們接受安置的兒少的保母的時候我們可以去強化訓練跟托育的品質的管控呢\n\n11\n00:04:18,431 --> 00:04:35,146\n這件事情我相信政府應該要來做不能夠只有交給一般的民間團體所以部長可以回應一下嗎目前大部分都有這個機制但是委員我要跟你報告這一次臺北市的居托中心他也犯了一個錯誤因為這一個保姆收養是兩個以上的小孩對\n\n12\n00:04:36,667 --> 00:04:52,993\n他把它放在不同的樓層這個本身就有問題第二個問題是當他居託中心去做檢查的時候後來發現說其中有的地方是條件是不好的濃濃煙味這個為什麼\n\n13\n00:04:56,615 --> 00:05:10,325\n第一次他去檢查的時候為什麼只看一樓他明明知道說還有他的收託的這個小孩子在同一個建築裡面啊應該要一起去看而且是同一個保姆啊\n\n14\n00:05:11,192 --> 00:05:32,660\n了解了解那我想問說執行有問題的話對那就是回到我們上面講的嘛我們法規這樣子定那地方執行不利的時候我們應該有一些積極的作為啦因為這樣才能夠真正的去接觸我們每一個孩子那抱歉我再佔用一點點時間喔就是說因為我們在我們的法律法裡面是有我們目前的法是沒有規定不約訪這件事情\n\n15\n00:05:34,267 --> 00:05:48,101\n但是現在就是因為第二次他保姆要去看保姆的時候保姆就說他確診啦所以沒有辦法看但是如果我們是不約訪的狀況搞不好我們是有機會救回這個小孩的\n\n16\n00:05:49,042 --> 00:06:06,549\n未來就是我們現在修這個托育專法是不是可以增訂居托中心不約訪的訪視條文我們是不是可以增訂這一點不要再用公文的方式來通知各個保姆所以我們用不約訪的路法來強化它的正當性這個部分可不可以請部長來說明一下\n\n17\n00:06:09,045 --> 00:06:25,877\n這個在這個專法的草案裡面討論的時候是沒有討論到不過委員的意見我們會做斟酌這個部分我希望還是可以去強制的去思考好不好就是因為必須我想約訪就可能會有一些可以做好準備的\n\n18\n00:06:26,477 --> 00:06:40,068\n則不約訪才能夠真正的面對那個問題才能夠真正的去照顧到我們每一個小孩這一點再請部長去審慎的思考把它放入專法裡面那我也會在我的版本提出這個條例那到時候也請部長支持謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5162\t8125\t謝謝趙偉 那我們有請部長請薛部長委員好部長好 那就是我們今天還是來針對社安網的一些檢討來做一些討論齁那就是目前呢 我們其實是有做一個七大缺失的一個檢討嘛那我想我今天齁等我一下 檢報出來了\n30505\t58805\t我們就針對這個社安網其中的兩個缺失來兩個說要檢討的缺失來做討論第一個就是收出養制度以及居托人員管理制度那我想先在討論這件事情我們先來討論一下法規面我們的《兒上全法》第17條是這樣子說的就是說依據前項的第一款規定進行訪視者應評估出養之必要性並給予相關的協助那如果沒有出養的必要的話就建議法\n59565\t86648\t愿不為收養之任可所以這關鍵就在於出養的必要性的定義到底是什麼那我想根據一些相關的期刊、論文都在討論就是說應該要評估除了經濟條件之外也要去考量他的身心狀況那像是這個額蒙在萬國法律也有說就是說要考量心理健康這件事情是比外職條件更重要的我想部長您應該非常清楚這件事情\n87930\t111392\t但是我們現在已經非常清楚了必要性是在這個可是我們現在看到了這一個檢討報告這檢討報告新北市社會局說專家檢視都由依現行的法令來辦理而且我知道當時阿嬤是說是因為經濟因素所以看起來我們的評估主因只有經濟因素嗎那這個報告到底是新北市做的還是兒童做的\n112513\t133178\t所以我想衛福部應該要針對兒少全法去做一個更全面的進行修法的討論這個部分也應該要納入這個考量那也請就是在我們會後再要約時間來討論這個修法的方向跟主軸那繼續請教部長就是這個法規怎麼定那社會可以再做一些討論但是我想很一個重要關鍵地方怎麼執行\n134819\t135940\t其實我們跟地方的這些關係大部分都基於合作\n150840\t151180\t主席主席\n177436\t201944\t我想這也可能是必要手段啦必要手段我想我們這件事情從這件事情上面我們也發現地方政府的確在執行上面有一些我們還需要去積極檢討的地方那我也希望衛福部可以用必要時候相關的工具啦因為這樣才能夠確保我們在第一線的時候真的可以接住我們每一個孩子我們都不需要再有下一個凱凱那我們必須真的要強硬的來做這件事情\n202964\t227900\t那再來就是針對於居家的托育人員的一些檢討我們現在的狀況是這樣子就是說我們會委託各縣市的居托中心來做這些保姆的管理那如果這件事情沒有牽扯到收出養就會回到一般的全日托或是一般的日托的狀況那我想問的就是說在這件事情上面我們在這個居托的管理的第18條是有講說一年要訪4次\n229400\t257151\t那除了就是收託的人數之外其他都是考評是一樣的就是全日託跟一般的都是一樣的那這件事情我想問我們全日託的保母考核是不是可以再強化一點就例如說因為他們是24小時不間斷的勤修勞動我們是不是有相關的輔導機制可以來協助這些保母或者是說我們接受安置的兒少的保母的時候我們可以去強化訓練跟托育的品質的管控呢\n258431\t275146\t這件事情我相信政府應該要來做不能夠只有交給一般的民間團體所以部長可以回應一下嗎目前大部分都有這個機制但是委員我要跟你報告這一次臺北市的居托中心他也犯了一個錯誤因為這一個保姆收養是兩個以上的小孩對\n276667\t292993\t他把它放在不同的樓層這個本身就有問題第二個問題是當他居託中心去做檢查的時候後來發現說其中有的地方是條件是不好的濃濃煙味這個為什麼\n296615\t310325\t第一次他去檢查的時候為什麼只看一樓他明明知道說還有他的收託的這個小孩子在同一個建築裡面啊應該要一起去看而且是同一個保姆啊\n311192\t332660\t了解了解那我想問說執行有問題的話對那就是回到我們上面講的嘛我們法規這樣子定那地方執行不利的時候我們應該有一些積極的作為啦因為這樣才能夠真正的去接觸我們每一個孩子那抱歉我再佔用一點點時間喔就是說因為我們在我們的法律法裡面是有我們目前的法是沒有規定不約訪這件事情\n334267\t348101\t但是現在就是因為第二次他保姆要去看保姆的時候保姆就說他確診啦所以沒有辦法看但是如果我們是不約訪的狀況搞不好我們是有機會救回這個小孩的\n349042\t366549\t未來就是我們現在修這個托育專法是不是可以增訂居托中心不約訪的訪視條文我們是不是可以增訂這一點不要再用公文的方式來通知各個保姆所以我們用不約訪的路法來強化它的正當性這個部分可不可以請部長來說明一下\n369045\t385877\t這個在這個專法的草案裡面討論的時候是沒有討論到不過委員的意見我們會做斟酌這個部分我希望還是可以去強制的去思考好不好就是因為必須我想約訪就可能會有一些可以做好準備的\n386477\t400068\t則不約訪才能夠真正的面對那個問題才能夠真正的去照顧到我們每一個小孩這一點再請部長去審慎的思考把它放入專法裡面那我也會在我的版本提出這個條例那到時候也請部長支持謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝趙偉 那我們有請部長請薛部長委員好部長好 那就是我們今天還是來針對社安網的一些檢討來做一些討論齁那就是目前呢 我們其實是有做一個七大缺失的一個檢討嘛那我想我今天齁等我一下 檢報出來了\n我們就針對這個社安網其中的兩個缺失來兩個說要檢討的缺失來做討論第一個就是收出養制度以及居托人員管理制度那我想先在討論這件事情我們先來討論一下法規面我們的《兒上全法》第17條是這樣子說的就是說依據前項的第一款規定進行訪視者應評估出養之必要性並給予相關的協助那如果沒有出養的必要的話就建議法\n愿不為收養之任可所以這關鍵就在於出養的必要性的定義到底是什麼那我想根據一些相關的期刊、論文都在討論就是說應該要評估除了經濟條件之外也要去考量他的身心狀況那像是這個額蒙在萬國法律也有說就是說要考量心理健康這件事情是比外職條件更重要的我想部長您應該非常清楚這件事情\n但是我們現在已經非常清楚了必要性是在這個可是我們現在看到了這一個檢討報告這檢討報告新北市社會局說專家檢視都由依現行的法令來辦理而且我知道當時阿嬤是說是因為經濟因素所以看起來我們的評估主因只有經濟因素嗎那這個報告到底是新北市做的還是兒童做的\n所以我想衛福部應該要針對兒少全法去做一個更全面的進行修法的討論這個部分也應該要納入這個考量那也請就是在我們會後再要約時間來討論這個修法的方向跟主軸那繼續請教部長就是這個法規怎麼定那社會可以再做一些討論但是我想很一個重要關鍵地方怎麼執行\n其實我們跟地方的這些關係大部分都基於合作\n主席主席\n我想這也可能是必要手段啦必要手段我想我們這件事情從這件事情上面我們也發現地方政府的確在執行上面有一些我們還需要去積極檢討的地方那我也希望衛福部可以用必要時候相關的工具啦因為這樣才能夠確保我們在第一線的時候真的可以接住我們每一個孩子我們都不需要再有下一個凱凱那我們必須真的要強硬的來做這件事情\n那再來就是針對於居家的托育人員的一些檢討我們現在的狀況是這樣子就是說我們會委託各縣市的居托中心來做這些保姆的管理那如果這件事情沒有牽扯到收出養就會回到一般的全日托或是一般的日托的狀況那我想問的就是說在這件事情上面我們在這個居托的管理的第18條是有講說一年要訪4次\n那除了就是收託的人數之外其他都是考評是一樣的就是全日託跟一般的都是一樣的那這件事情我想問我們全日託的保母考核是不是可以再強化一點就例如說因為他們是24小時不間斷的勤修勞動我們是不是有相關的輔導機制可以來協助這些保母或者是說我們接受安置的兒少的保母的時候我們可以去強化訓練跟托育的品質的管控呢\n這件事情我相信政府應該要來做不能夠只有交給一般的民間團體所以部長可以回應一下嗎目前大部分都有這個機制但是委員我要跟你報告這一次臺北市的居托中心他也犯了一個錯誤因為這一個保姆收養是兩個以上的小孩對\n他把它放在不同的樓層這個本身就有問題第二個問題是當他居託中心去做檢查的時候後來發現說其中有的地方是條件是不好的濃濃煙味這個為什麼\n第一次他去檢查的時候為什麼只看一樓他明明知道說還有他的收託的這個小孩子在同一個建築裡面啊應該要一起去看而且是同一個保姆啊\n了解了解那我想問說執行有問題的話對那就是回到我們上面講的嘛我們法規這樣子定那地方執行不利的時候我們應該有一些積極的作為啦因為這樣才能夠真正的去接觸我們每一個孩子那抱歉我再佔用一點點時間喔就是說因為我們在我們的法律法裡面是有我們目前的法是沒有規定不約訪這件事情\n但是現在就是因為第二次他保姆要去看保姆的時候保姆就說他確診啦所以沒有辦法看但是如果我們是不約訪的狀況搞不好我們是有機會救回這個小孩的\n未來就是我們現在修這個托育專法是不是可以增訂居托中心不約訪的訪視條文我們是不是可以增訂這一點不要再用公文的方式來通知各個保姆所以我們用不約訪的路法來強化它的正當性這個部分可不可以請部長來說明一下\n這個在這個專法的草案裡面討論的時候是沒有討論到不過委員的意見我們會做斟酌這個部分我希望還是可以去強制的去思考好不好就是因為必須我想約訪就可能會有一些可以做好準備的\n則不約訪才能夠真正的面對那個問題才能夠真正的去照顧到我們每一個小孩這一點再請部長去審慎的思考把它放入專法裡面那我也會在我的版本提出這個條例那到時候也請部長支持謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.162 --> 00:08.125\n謝謝趙偉那我們有請部長請薛部長委員好部長好那就是我們今天還是來針對社安網的一些檢討來做一些討論齁那就是目前呢我們其實是有做一個七大缺失的一個檢討嘛那我想我今天齁等我一下檢報出來了\n\n00:30.505 --> 00:58.805\n我們就針對這個社安網其中的兩個缺失來兩個說要檢討的缺失來做討論第一個就是收出養制度以及居托人員管理制度那我想先在討論這件事情我們先來討論一下法規面我們的《兒上全法》第17條是這樣子說的就是說依據前項的第一款規定進行訪視者應評估出養之必要性並給予相關的協助那如果沒有出養的必要的話就建議法\n\n00:59.565 --> 01:26.648\n愿不為收養之任可所以這關鍵就在於出養的必要性的定義到底是什麼那我想根據一些相關的期刊、論文都在討論就是說應該要評估除了經濟條件之外也要去考量他的身心狀況那像是這個額蒙在萬國法律也有說就是說要考量心理健康這件事情是比外職條件更重要的我想部長您應該非常清楚這件事情\n\n01:27.930 --> 01:51.392\n但是我們現在已經非常清楚了必要性是在這個可是我們現在看到了這一個檢討報告這檢討報告新北市社會局說專家檢視都由依現行的法令來辦理而且我知道當時阿嬤是說是因為經濟因素所以看起來我們的評估主因只有經濟因素嗎那這個報告到底是新北市做的還是兒童做的\n\n01:52.513 --> 02:13.178\n所以我想衛福部應該要針對兒少全法去做一個更全面的進行修法的討論這個部分也應該要納入這個考量那也請就是在我們會後再要約時間來討論這個修法的方向跟主軸那繼續請教部長就是這個法規怎麼定那社會可以再做一些討論但是我想很一個重要關鍵地方怎麼執行\n\n02:14.819 --> 02:15.940\n其實我們跟地方的這些關係大部分都基於合作\n\n02:30.840 --> 02:31.180\n主席主席\n\n02:57.436 --> 03:21.944\n我想這也可能是必要手段啦必要手段我想我們這件事情從這件事情上面我們也發現地方政府的確在執行上面有一些我們還需要去積極檢討的地方那我也希望衛福部可以用必要時候相關的工具啦因為這樣才能夠確保我們在第一線的時候真的可以接住我們每一個孩子我們都不需要再有下一個凱凱那我們必須真的要強硬的來做這件事情\n\n03:22.964 --> 03:47.900\n那再來就是針對於居家的托育人員的一些檢討我們現在的狀況是這樣子就是說我們會委託各縣市的居托中心來做這些保姆的管理那如果這件事情沒有牽扯到收出養就會回到一般的全日托或是一般的日托的狀況那我想問的就是說在這件事情上面我們在這個居托的管理的第18條是有講說一年要訪4次\n\n03:49.400 --> 04:17.151\n那除了就是收託的人數之外其他都是考評是一樣的就是全日託跟一般的都是一樣的那這件事情我想問我們全日託的保母考核是不是可以再強化一點就例如說因為他們是24小時不間斷的勤修勞動我們是不是有相關的輔導機制可以來協助這些保母或者是說我們接受安置的兒少的保母的時候我們可以去強化訓練跟托育的品質的管控呢\n\n04:18.431 --> 04:35.146\n這件事情我相信政府應該要來做不能夠只有交給一般的民間團體所以部長可以回應一下嗎目前大部分都有這個機制但是委員我要跟你報告這一次臺北市的居托中心他也犯了一個錯誤因為這一個保姆收養是兩個以上的小孩對\n\n04:36.667 --> 04:52.993\n他把它放在不同的樓層這個本身就有問題第二個問題是當他居託中心去做檢查的時候後來發現說其中有的地方是條件是不好的濃濃煙味這個為什麼\n\n04:56.615 --> 05:10.325\n第一次他去檢查的時候為什麼只看一樓他明明知道說還有他的收託的這個小孩子在同一個建築裡面啊應該要一起去看而且是同一個保姆啊\n\n05:11.192 --> 05:32.660\n了解了解那我想問說執行有問題的話對那就是回到我們上面講的嘛我們法規這樣子定那地方執行不利的時候我們應該有一些積極的作為啦因為這樣才能夠真正的去接觸我們每一個孩子那抱歉我再佔用一點點時間喔就是說因為我們在我們的法律法裡面是有我們目前的法是沒有規定不約訪這件事情\n\n05:34.267 --> 05:48.101\n但是現在就是因為第二次他保姆要去看保姆的時候保姆就說他確診啦所以沒有辦法看但是如果我們是不約訪的狀況搞不好我們是有機會救回這個小孩的\n\n05:49.042 --> 06:06.549\n未來就是我們現在修這個托育專法是不是可以增訂居托中心不約訪的訪視條文我們是不是可以增訂這一點不要再用公文的方式來通知各個保姆所以我們用不約訪的路法來強化它的正當性這個部分可不可以請部長來說明一下\n\n06:09.045 --> 06:25.877\n這個在這個專法的草案裡面討論的時候是沒有討論到不過委員的意見我們會做斟酌這個部分我希望還是可以去強制的去思考好不好就是因為必須我想約訪就可能會有一些可以做好準備的\n\n06:26.477 --> 06:40.068\n則不約訪才能夠真正的面對那個問題才能夠真正的去照顧到我們每一個小孩這一點再請部長去審慎的思考把它放入專法裡面那我也會在我的版本提出這個條例那到時候也請部長支持謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.162,"end":8.125,"text":"謝謝趙偉 那我們有請部長請薛部長委員好部長好 那就是我們今天還是來針對社安網的一些檢討來做一些討論齁那就是目前呢 我們其實是有做一個七大缺失的一個檢討嘛那我想我今天齁等我一下 檢報出來了"},{"start":30.505,"end":58.805,"text":"我們就針對這個社安網其中的兩個缺失來兩個說要檢討的缺失來做討論第一個就是收出養制度以及居托人員管理制度那我想先在討論這件事情我們先來討論一下法規面我們的《兒上全法》第17條是這樣子說的就是說依據前項的第一款規定進行訪視者應評估出養之必要性並給予相關的協助那如果沒有出養的必要的話就建議法"},{"start":59.565,"end":86.648,"text":"愿不為收養之任可所以這關鍵就在於出養的必要性的定義到底是什麼那我想根據一些相關的期刊、論文都在討論就是說應該要評估除了經濟條件之外也要去考量他的身心狀況那像是這個額蒙在萬國法律也有說就是說要考量心理健康這件事情是比外職條件更重要的我想部長您應該非常清楚這件事情"},{"start":87.93,"end":111.392,"text":"但是我們現在已經非常清楚了必要性是在這個可是我們現在看到了這一個檢討報告這檢討報告新北市社會局說專家檢視都由依現行的法令來辦理而且我知道當時阿嬤是說是因為經濟因素所以看起來我們的評估主因只有經濟因素嗎那這個報告到底是新北市做的還是兒童做的"},{"start":112.513,"end":133.178,"text":"所以我想衛福部應該要針對兒少全法去做一個更全面的進行修法的討論這個部分也應該要納入這個考量那也請就是在我們會後再要約時間來討論這個修法的方向跟主軸那繼續請教部長就是這個法規怎麼定那社會可以再做一些討論但是我想很一個重要關鍵地方怎麼執行"},{"start":134.819,"end":135.94,"text":"其實我們跟地方的這些關係大部分都基於合作"},{"start":150.84,"end":151.18,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":177.436,"end":201.944,"text":"我想這也可能是必要手段啦必要手段我想我們這件事情從這件事情上面我們也發現地方政府的確在執行上面有一些我們還需要去積極檢討的地方那我也希望衛福部可以用必要時候相關的工具啦因為這樣才能夠確保我們在第一線的時候真的可以接住我們每一個孩子我們都不需要再有下一個凱凱那我們必須真的要強硬的來做這件事情"},{"start":202.964,"end":227.9,"text":"那再來就是針對於居家的托育人員的一些檢討我們現在的狀況是這樣子就是說我們會委託各縣市的居托中心來做這些保姆的管理那如果這件事情沒有牽扯到收出養就會回到一般的全日托或是一般的日托的狀況那我想問的就是說在這件事情上面我們在這個居托的管理的第18條是有講說一年要訪4次"},{"start":229.4,"end":257.151,"text":"那除了就是收託的人數之外其他都是考評是一樣的就是全日託跟一般的都是一樣的那這件事情我想問我們全日託的保母考核是不是可以再強化一點就例如說因為他們是24小時不間斷的勤修勞動我們是不是有相關的輔導機制可以來協助這些保母或者是說我們接受安置的兒少的保母的時候我們可以去強化訓練跟托育的品質的管控呢"},{"start":258.431,"end":275.146,"text":"這件事情我相信政府應該要來做不能夠只有交給一般的民間團體所以部長可以回應一下嗎目前大部分都有這個機制但是委員我要跟你報告這一次臺北市的居托中心他也犯了一個錯誤因為這一個保姆收養是兩個以上的小孩對"},{"start":276.667,"end":292.993,"text":"他把它放在不同的樓層這個本身就有問題第二個問題是當他居託中心去做檢查的時候後來發現說其中有的地方是條件是不好的濃濃煙味這個為什麼"},{"start":296.615,"end":310.325,"text":"第一次他去檢查的時候為什麼只看一樓他明明知道說還有他的收託的這個小孩子在同一個建築裡面啊應該要一起去看而且是同一個保姆啊"},{"start":311.192,"end":332.66,"text":"了解了解那我想問說執行有問題的話對那就是回到我們上面講的嘛我們法規這樣子定那地方執行不利的時候我們應該有一些積極的作為啦因為這樣才能夠真正的去接觸我們每一個孩子那抱歉我再佔用一點點時間喔就是說因為我們在我們的法律法裡面是有我們目前的法是沒有規定不約訪這件事情"},{"start":334.267,"end":348.101,"text":"但是現在就是因為第二次他保姆要去看保姆的時候保姆就說他確診啦所以沒有辦法看但是如果我們是不約訪的狀況搞不好我們是有機會救回這個小孩的"},{"start":349.042,"end":366.549,"text":"未來就是我們現在修這個托育專法是不是可以增訂居托中心不約訪的訪視條文我們是不是可以增訂這一點不要再用公文的方式來通知各個保姆所以我們用不約訪的路法來強化它的正當性這個部分可不可以請部長來說明一下"},{"start":369.045,"end":385.877,"text":"這個在這個專法的草案裡面討論的時候是沒有討論到不過委員的意見我們會做斟酌這個部分我希望還是可以去強制的去思考好不好就是因為必須我想約訪就可能會有一些可以做好準備的"},{"start":386.477,"end":400.068,"text":"則不約訪才能夠真正的面對那個問題才能夠真正的去照顧到我們每一個小孩這一點再請部長去審慎的思考把它放入專法裡面那我也會在我的版本提出這個條例那到時候也請部長支持謝謝"}]}}}}