{"id":150641,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150641","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8fc09d97f3151fdf6bcfeb2cd79ad565b83f090e56da198af8ba9b0039caa7a6243cac83bf874b865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:02:28 - 13:22:16","影片長度":"00:19:48","會議時間":"2024-03-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「社會安全網缺失檢討及具體改進作法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就「出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n三、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結案18案（報告事項）。【第18案，如經復議則不予處理】\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-9"},"date":"2024-03-28","duration":1188,"end_time":"2024-03-28T13:22:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-28T13:02:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1942,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時2分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長，今天針對主席排的這個專案，還有最近食安的問題，本席要再提醒部長，和部長討論。先請教部長，剴剴案是不是符合脆弱家庭的服務對象？"],["薛部長瑞元：是的。"],["劉委員建國：新北市社福中心訪視剴剴的外祖母家時，針對被兒福安置到臺北市的愷愷，新北市到底有沒有持續訪視的責任和義務？"],["薛部長瑞元：理論上應該有，他們必須去追蹤。如果因為跨轄不方便的話，應該要透過和臺北市聯繫，把案子轉給臺北市。"],["劉委員建國：有規範需要訪視幾次嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：一個月一次。"],["劉委員建國：剴剴被安置到臺北市多長時間？就你們的掌握，新北市社福中心的社工去那邊訪視幾次？"],["薛部長瑞元：安置到臺北市大概三個月，但是社福中心並沒有去訪視。"],["劉委員建國：安置到臺北市三個月，對不對？之後呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：新北市的社福中心從來沒有去訪視過。"],["劉委員建國：從來沒有去訪視？連一次都沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：而且他們也沒有通知臺北市這是脆弱家庭的兒童。"],["劉委員建國：他們也沒有通知臺北市，剴剴是脆弱家庭的兒童？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。所以臺北市也沒有辦法接手一個月去訪視一次。"],["劉委員建國：變成臺北市因為這樣，也沒有履行他們應該遵守的相關規範，就是最少一個月去一次，反是就是這三個月，臺北市和新北市的社福中心都沒有去做訪視。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，只有兒福聯盟有去看。"],["劉委員建國：這件事情是這樣的，剴剴媽媽懷孕的時候，有向兒福聯盟聯繫諮詢，生產之後又與兒盟簽下出養合約。在懷孕與生產期間，兒福聯盟到底有沒有積極輔導媽媽？還是讓她改變心意，留下孩子自己照顧？"],["薛部長瑞元：兒福聯盟是因為合約還沒有簽妥，後來媽媽就失聯了，所以兒……"],["劉委員建國：對，他們是在生產後簽的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。她那時候有表達這個意願，所以就簽字，兒福聯盟也有接手。但是因為牽涉到之後出養的法律程序問題，結果媽媽卻聯繫不到，所以兒福聯盟後來就結案，小孩子回到他的原生家庭，由外祖母找保母照顧。在這中間，新北市社福中心就積極和外祖母聯繫，希望改變監護人，因為媽媽已經不見，所以希望由外祖母當監護人，如果外祖母同意當監護人，就可以再重啟出養的程序。"],["劉委員建國：外祖母成為監護人之後，就可以再啟動出養程序？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，就可以重新啟動。後來也就……"],["劉委員建國：但是那天我們有討論到，本席是比對前後的訊息，就我們了解，外祖母確實有經濟上的困難，對不對？但是她也有幫剴剴聘用他們信賴的保母，應該是這樣嘛！然後外祖母好像也特別提出，是不是一樣給這個保母照顧，還希望有補助。她有提出類似這樣的訴求，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：就那天部長答復本席的，差那5,000元，所以去找臺北市那個保母。"],["薛部長瑞元：從錢的角度來看的話，的確是有這樣的差距，但這是不是主要的原因，我們並不是很清楚，不過兒福聯盟的報告有提到，當時在換手，也就是從第三個保母到第四個保母的過程中，他們有和新北市的社福中心討論過，但是新北市社福中心的報告中並沒有提到這件事情，所以我們不清楚到底有沒有討論。","理論上應該是用外祖母原來聘用的保母，因為他已經照顧一段時間，如果要轉手到另外一個保母，應該要做非常謹慎的評估，因為原本的保母已經照顧一年了。後來新北市給我們的報告中有提到未來的改進措施，也建議照顧者和這個小孩子應該要有更好的依附關係，可是這就互相矛盾了嘛！"],["劉委員建國：對啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：當時兒福聯盟對這件事情的說明是，因為原來的周姓保母和小孩子有太多的界線不分明，但是新北市的報告又說要建立依附關係，這就互相矛盾啊！"],["劉委員建國：本席很認真地在聽你敘述，聽這種矛盾的事情，竟然還聽這麼久，讓本席也變得矛盾。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊！所以我們才會在今天的檢討報告中，針對這一點對新北市提出質疑，到底你們是要怎麼樣？是要讓他有依附關係，這樣對小孩子比較好？還是不要有太深的依附關係，讓他出養時不會造成阻礙？這個新……"],["劉委員建國：所以部長，這件事你們要非常慎重、嚴謹的徹查。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊！"],["劉委員建國：新北市到底是怎麼評估這樣的脆弱家庭？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有資料。"],["劉委員建國：對，沒有資料嘛！這個問題就非常嚴重了，這是一條生命。"],["薛部長瑞元：是啊！對。"],["劉委員建國：再繼續請教部長，新北市的部分，部長一定要非常嚴謹去徹查，要把真相公諸於世。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：臺北市送到市議會的專案報告中提到，這個劉姓保母在100年7月考取保母人員技術證資格，部長可以參閱這份資料。並於111年檢附三個月內警察刑事紀錄證明、體檢報告等，向社會局提出登記證的申請，並告知申請保母是為了符合兒盟合作保母資格，當時有特別說這句話，就是畫紅線的部分。","臺北市的報告說，北市居家托育服務中心到劉女的托育地進行四項環境安全檢核，並在111年11月10日核發居家式的托育服務證書，這個流程沒有問題，對不對？但是在此之前，我們在委員會還看到一些相關資料，我們都以為是兒福聯盟主動找上這名有合格執照的劉姓保母，但其實好像不然，看這個樣子好像是這個保母在取得服務資格前，就已經和兒福聯盟有某種程度的連結。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們不清楚實際原因啦！她去申請保母的資格，只是為了和兒福聯盟合作？還是有其他的原因？因為她總共收了三個小孩，其中一個並不是被安置的，等於是家長……"],["劉委員建國：對，就是一般的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。所以看起來並不完全是只為了照顧兒福聯盟轉介過來的小孩。"],["劉委員建國：但是她還沒有取得這個托育服務證書之前，她在申請時有特別說到，就是要符合兒盟合作保母的資格，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊！但這應該只是原因之一啦！因為她收的不完全都是兒福的個案。"],["劉委員建國：不論是兒福的孩子，或是任何一個機構的孩子，會轉介到機構照顧，層次上就不一樣嘛！也就是說，這類孩子的原生家庭已經出現問題，原本就不是一般保母可以照顧的，你看媒體報導，當他們詢問劉姓保母的動機時，她還理直氣壯回應，別的小孩的父母親都會好好巴結保母，希望保母能夠好好照顧小孩，部長應該有看到吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：是的。"],["劉委員建國：但是這個小孩的爸爸媽媽不在，沒有人來巴結她，所以她一看到小孩就想揍，她一直為了錢在「扣扣總」，要不是為了「孫中山」，她根本不想照顧。怎麼會有這種人呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：這應該已經屬於反社會人格偏差。"],["劉委員建國：這是一個脆弱家庭的小朋友，父親不曉得去向，母親被通緝中，這個小朋友遇到這樣的狀況已經讓人很心疼，怎麼還遇到有這種心態的保母？這樣根本不符合兒福機構聘用保母的最基本條件嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！不過像這種反社會人格的人，老實說平常是看不出來的，因為他不會寫在臉上，說自己是壞人。"],["劉委員建國：但是她照顧三個人，其中一個也有出問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是沒有啦！"],["劉委員建國：應該是沒有？你們是揣測？還是調查？「應該是沒有」要講清楚，是沒有？還是應該沒有？這四個字有落差。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們沒有接到這一類的通報，三個小孩當中，有一個很快就出養了，另外一個是社區的，那個小孩並沒有被通報，所以主要是剴剴。"],["劉委員建國：兒福機構在找保母，應該有一定程度的規範，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：衛福部還頒佈直轄縣市運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則，這是你們當時的規範。這個處理原則第三點就提到，主管機關得自行或委託相關專業機構、團體辦理下列事項：(一)建立並至少每六個月盤點適合照顧安置個案之居托人員名單。這個部分有做嗎？"],["李次長麗芬：這個部分，因為臺北市認為他們現在的安置資源已經足夠，包括機構、寄養家庭，所以他們就沒有建立這樣的名單。"],["劉委員建國：我們不是有個處理原則？"],["李次長麗芬：是啊！"],["劉委員建國：所以它只是原則？"],["李次長麗芬：對。當他們要運用安置資源，如果是運用保母的話，我們請他們要依這個原則辦理。臺北市覺得他們的資源夠了，不需要用到保母，所以他們就沒有做。"],["劉委員建國：如果資源夠了，還會發生這樣的事情嗎？這叫資源夠了？這些機構的小朋友，他們的家庭背景本身就有一些問題，所以在照顧上就要比一般小朋友更專業，對不對？所以(二)又提到，主管機關要提供居托人員照顧家外安置兒童相關專業訓練。","另外，第五點也規定，經主管機關交付安置個案之居托人員，於首次照顧安置個案前接受職前訓練課程建議至少六小時。對吧？"],["李次長麗芬：對。"],["劉委員建國：這個案例有做嗎？"],["李次長麗芬：臺北市沒有……"],["薛部長瑞元：臺北市沒有。"],["劉委員建國：你們三個人說的角度和立場好像不太一樣。"],["李次長麗芬：應該是說，因為現在兒盟用的這個保母並不是在這個原則下建立的保母名單。為什麼沒有這個名單？因為臺北市覺得不需要建立，他們的安置資源已經夠了，所以出事的這個保母，其實她不是在這個原則下接受過訓練的保母。"],["劉委員建國：本席該怎麼問你們？因為這樣的說法很奇怪。他們的資源足夠，所以就不需要遵守這樣的原則，結果導致小朋友出了這樣的問題。"],["李次長麗芬：因為這是新北市出養的個案，他們請兒盟處理，兒盟就自己去找保母，所以這個保母就沒有接受過這項訓練，他們也沒有詢問臺北市有沒有比較好的保母。"],["劉委員建國：次長，你這樣的答復好像是說，臺北市覺得他們的資源夠了，所以他們就不需要遵守這個原則，你的邏輯是這樣喔！你這樣答復是一件很奇怪的事情喔！"],["李次長麗芬：沒有。如果他們要運用保母的話……"],["劉委員建國：這個原則到底該不該遵守？不能說他們是有足夠的資源或是沒有足夠資源，而是這個原則就必須遵守，應該是這樣才對嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：這是委託安置啦！也就是臺北市認為他們的機構、寄養家庭是足夠的，所以他們不需要再用保母做這類的安置，因此就沒有提供現有的保母系統去接受政府委託安置的case，所以他們就沒有去做這樣的訓練。"],["劉委員建國：所以就部長和次長的答復來看，就是有這樣的盲點，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。事實上像今天這個case，是新北市介紹過來的，因為跑到臺北市，但臺北市沒有用這種居家托育的系統進行安置，所以變成由兒福聯盟自己去找一般的保母進行安置，問題就在這個地方，一般的保母並沒有接受這種特殊訓練。"],["劉委員建國：部長這樣的答復會產生兩個盲點，一個是公務機關，一個是兒福機構，通通一直存在這個盲點。這個盲點到底要怎麼解決？今天如果沒有這兩個盲點，可能就沒有這些事情了。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。所以我們現在就是要調整這個機制。"],["劉委員建國：因為你們第五點又寫到，經主管機關交付安置個案之居托人員，於首次照顧安置個案前接受職前訓練課程建議至少六小時。然後安置個案類型、創傷經驗及問題輔導，這都是比一般保母的職訓還要專業的課程，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。所以我們未來要做的事情，就是要補好這一塊。第一個，如果要接受這種政府委託家外安置的case，你應該要受到比較強的教育訓練。第二個，如果有跨轄時，一定要把訊息送過去，假設今天新北市有把屬於脆家個案需要另外安置的訊息給臺北市，臺北市說我們沒有保母可以做這件事情，因為我們不需要，但是我們有寄養家庭，這個小孩子就會送到寄養家庭，根本就不會發生今天的事情。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！所以前面的認定資源足夠，但是後面該做的動作沒有去做，簡單說就是這樣。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。因為他們沒有接收到這個訊息。"],["劉委員建國：請部長把案件查個清清楚楚，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好的。"],["劉委員建國：該去除的盲點就要去除！最後一個問題，主席已經站起來了，因為時間的關係，本席還要針對食安的問題詢問。本席說的話，大家要聽進去，本席最討厭已經提醒的事情，明明可以去做一些防範，但是卻不夠積極，這樣不好。","本席現在不是在說食安署沒有做這些事情，本席的意思是食安的問題會擴散，而且現在又發生這樣的事情，所以很多事情可能要更積極的做相關防範和預警。寶林茶室這件事情，衛福部昨天有開記者會，表示米酵菌酸可能是造成這次事件的主因，實驗室的檢驗可能要兩週才可以確定……"],["薛部長瑞元：可能啦！"],["劉委員建國：是不是可以加快？因為這麼廣泛的一個……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們拿到檢體後就馬上進行檢驗，但是因為目前其他物質引起中毒的可能性也沒有排除，其他物質包括農藥等等，這些我們都有先做。"],["劉委員建國：本席再提醒一點，根據食安法第十三條規定，經中央主管機關公告類別及規模之食品業者應該投保產品的責任保險，這家有投保嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分我們會請相關單位去開罰。"],["劉委員建國：有投保嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：他們有投保，但是保險到期後沒有續保。"],["劉委員建國：那怎麼辦？就本席的資訊，他們3月底就要結束營業，現在都已經要停業了。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是他們現在還在營業，所以要馬上……。"],["劉委員建國：他們是去年10月就到期了嘛！今年已經進入第一季，他們第一季就要結束營業。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：你們可以依據第四十七條，處3萬元以上300萬元以下罰款，對不對？情節重大者還可以令其歇業、停業。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。停業對他們已經沒有意義，現在就是要處以罰鍰。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！已經沒有意義。本席覺得現在連罰鍰都可能罰不到，你們有沒有啟動防脫產的機制？"],["薛部長瑞元：儘量啦！因為要先送出處分，如果沒有太大的問題，我們就直接送行政執行，進入強制執行的階段。"],["劉委員建國：是不是該啟動防脫產機制？不然因為這個事件死亡的民眾，還有在醫院的……"],["薛部長瑞元：對。我們會提醒臺北市衛生局。"],["劉委員建國：好的，請部長具體掌握狀況，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好的，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。有必要的話，請衛福部會後再向委員說明。","本日會議詢答全部結束。委員黃珊珊、楊曜、邱鎮軍、張啓楷、陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員黃珊珊書面質詢：","衛福部應是第一線人員的後盾、完善相關流程的把關者，從個案檢討通案，守護兒童平安","一、今日之所以針對社會安全網召開專題報告，無非就是針對近期爆出震驚社會的虐童致死案件。不過雖然說是「近期爆出」，但其實剴剴案早在去年12月就已經發生悲劇。","Q1 請問衛福部，過去3個月，針對此案有何作為？還是衛福部在案發3個月後，等到輿論燒起來了，才終於針對此案舉行檢討會議？","二、依據<社政單位兒少保護案件通報處理、調查及處遇服務作業程序>規定，應於重大兒虐事件發生30天內完成調查報告。然衛福部在3月新聞報導延燒後，才緊急召開會議檢討兒少安置、收出養及居家托育制度不全，未能針對兒少政策缺失做出即時回應，顯然有怠惰之嫌。","Q2 請問衛福部，理應於30天內完成的調查報告在哪裡？如果依法應該限期提出調查報告的是地方政府，那衛福部究竟有沒有在媒體揭露案件之前就掌握狀況？","三、本席從此次個案中，看到中央與地方的失職。首先是地方政府，做為兒少事件的第一線主管機關，絕對就是事主而非公親。重大兒虐事件檢討會議，從來就是地方政府決定是否召開，本席在台北市副市長任內，召開了多少次、從來都沒有需要請示中央過。另一方面，衛福部對於出養機構（兒福聯盟）與地方政府的失能，無法有效監督與協助，放任案件無疾而終。","四、同時，衛福部做為中央的社政主管機關，在整個事件被揭露後，和臺北市政府社會局在過程中都未維護社工權益，躲在本案社工後面，放任本案社工面對輿論壓力、吸引炮火。甚至到社工被警方上銬「作秀」、畫面全國播放後，衛福部還是完全沒有發揮做為第一線社工人員後盾的角色。","Q3 全台社工工會已於在3月20日前往衛福部抗議。請問衛福部，做為長官若是沒有肩膀，如何讓基層願意全心全力投入工作？衛福部有沒有積極向民眾宣導不應在司法判決結果出爐前「私刑正義」？有沒有向警方針對上銬供媒體拍攝提出抗議？還是就只有日前由李麗芬次長對外表示「不願意苛責單一社工，或由單一社工負起所有責任」？","五、不僅如此，衛福部臨時抱佛腳做出的會議結論，要求社工增加訪視頻率，各縣市也分別提出增加訪視的次數。這完全就和發生社會重大刑案，內政部就會要求增加警察巡邏次數、提高見警率一樣，壓榨基層人力來表現好像政府有在做事。","Q4 事實上，見警率也一直被詬病，並沒有證據證明能夠提升治安。請問衛福部，「科學理性務實」應該是政府施政的首要考量，針對兒童虐待案件，提高社工的訪視頻率、把社工當作訪視員，就能夠有效降低風險嗎？衛福部是否應該要訂定相關指引，讓基層人力能夠得到高效率的運用，而不讓社工淪為應付政府目標數字、流於形式的工具？","六、政府針對社會安全網的破洞，居然提出簡單粗暴的「增加基層工作量」做為解方，同時也看不到政府做為第一線人員後盾的肩膀，讓基層人員擔心工作量加倍、個案量不減，人力卻依然有限，進而萌生退意。","Q5 「強化社會安全網第二期計畫」自2021年至今已經執行3年多了，該計畫預計要在2025年達到增加7,797名各式人力的目標。請問衛福部，目前基層人力的補充是否有符合進度預期？社安網計畫的社工進用率有達標嗎？","Q6 立法院的預算中心在2021年社安網計畫二期才執行第一年時就指出，該計畫有超過40%的經費要用於人力進用，而當時就已經出現人力進用的進度落後、尚有缺額的問題。請問衛福部，過了3年，衛福部對於一樣的問題還是束手無策，問題出在哪裡？","Q7 如果人力問題是因為地方政府執行不力，那衛福部難道能夠兩手一攤就認為不關自己的事了嗎？還是要積極面對問題、解決問題。請衛福部在2週內針對如何督促與協助地方政府如期補足人力、支持第一線社會安全網運作，提出改善規劃的書面報告。","七、最後還有一個人力問題，衛福部日前檢討會議的結論之一，是針對3歲以下安置兒童，衛生局可以不經父母同意就為其指定幼兒專責醫師。然而經過前段時間社工遭到獵巫咎責，尤其衛福部也並沒有站出來保護第一線人員的基本權益，讓幼兒專責醫師現在也是人心惶惶，已經傳出部分醫師醞釀要退出幼兒專責醫師。","Q8 請問衛福部是否知道，擔任幼兒專責醫師，接收每個派案，醫師只能拿到1000元個管費？衛福部認為這個費用相較於投入與風險，有合理、真的能夠吸引醫師加入嗎？還是又只能用評鑑等手法來「拗」醫院？","八、本席要強調，無論是社工還是幼兒專責醫師，絕對都不是賴清德副總統口中的「做功德」，而是確實付出專業、投注精神勞動，同時承擔許多無形風險。政府支持不足就已經是最大的罪過，更何況是甩鍋給基層。無論在經費還是權益方面，衛福部都應作為第一線人員的後盾，並且從中央完善相關流程，把關並監督地方政府確實織起綿密的社會安全網，從個案檢討通案，才能真正守護兒童平安，不能每次都是「今日公祭，明日忘記」。"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","一、如何落實社會福利服務中心的社工督導機制？","問題：在衛福部3/24所發佈的新聞稿中指出，認為兒福聯盟的社工督導機制不一難以發揮功能，督導機制個別差異性大，未規範明確督導機制、頻率及方式，無法即時且適時提供社工支持與指導，督導系統負有維護服務品質穩定之責，實應檢討並重新建置完善機制；而社會福利中心，亦有督導機制，全國已完成布建共計156處社會福利服務中心，請問衛福部，目前全國的社會福利中心總計有幾位社工督導？各中心是否皆有設置社工督導，是否有發生找不到社工督導的狀況發生？各中心每名社工督導監督社工的最高與最低比例為何？如何避免社工督導一人督導過多社工的情況發生？社會福利中心是否有明確督導機制、頻率及方式？社工督導是否有負責個案或是兼任行政職，導致業務量大，無法確實落實監督的職責？畢竟，督導機制的運作，是影響社工員服務品質與效能的重要關建要素之一。","二、全國各縣市社工進用率逐年下滑，原因為何？","問題：各地方政府的社工的服務案件、工作壓力、工作環境，皆是留不住社工人力原因，根據衛福部資料，2021年全國社工的需求人數是2,960人，去年的需求則是到4,190人，兩年內增加了1.4倍，但是去年的進用率卻是下降的，需求增加、進用率下降，是否代表現職社工的負擔又加重？請問衛福部，全國各縣市社工進用率逐年下滑，原因為何？","三、我國於補足社工人力上仍有努力空間，衛福部要如何因應？","問題：據衛福部社會救助司同仁的研究，2022年專職社工共有1萬7,015人，服務比為1：1352，日本1：481、美國1：465、香港1：281，顯見我國的社工人力仍有進步空間，且根據媒體報導，台大社工系的學生指出，2022年有21人申請轉系，佔比38.18%、2023年申請轉出15人，占比26.79%，顯示部分大學社工系也留不住學生，請問衛福部，眾多資料顯示，社工人力不足，且問題越來越嚴重，請教部長，衛福部的因應措施為何？會不會像護理師人力荒一樣，降低國家考試標準？","四、衛福部近期新聞稿皆指出社工人員缺乏足夠教育訓練，在社工人力缺乏下，社工有時間去從事教育訓練？","問題：近來衛福部針對出養童致死案所發佈之新聞稿，多數皆指出社工人員缺乏足夠教育訓練，針對此事，衛福部是否應該與各大專院校研議，從社工養成的學習歷程中，是否增加學分、課程，來持續精進社工養成過程？","而現職社工部分，在社工人力缺乏下，一味的要求社工從事在職訓練，只會增加社工負擔，加速離職潮，衛福部認為，社工訓練欠缺充足的出養必要性評估課程，及對於案童安置照顧期間的風險辨識、兒少保護議題、特殊需求兒少議題、特殊事件的處理等相關課程與訓練，亦無相關評核機制檢視訓練有否達到提升專業知能之效益，在考量現職社工的業務負擔下，如何讓社工從事教育訓練？"],["委員邱鎮軍書面質詢：","Q1：有鑑於網路社群屢屢見到學生抱怨遭到霸凌，但學校卻刻意壓案，未向上通報社會安全網，渠等無法受到社會安全網保護，又不敢向家長反應，導致痛苦並尋短，請衛福部說明目前社會安全網絡，針對學校霸凌事件，如何強化預防及主動發掘與協助輔導？","Q2：針對本次台北市發生寶林茶室（餐廳）重大食安事件，已導致2死4重症共12例食物中毒案，相關系統通報作業都在媒體報導曝光後才進行，後知後覺，請衛福部確實檢討事件處理程序是否有應檢討改善之缺失，提出如何於事前與事後加強相關因應措施之具體改善作為。","Q3：另據媒體報導寶林茶室（餐廳）並未投保「產品責任險」或「公共意外責任險」，請衛福部說明前項保險是否為強制投保，如未投保將給予何種懲處？如何避免再度發生食品業者未投保之情形？","Q4：針對寶林茶室本次中毒事件，原因究竟為何？請衛福部於檢驗結果出來後，務必強化未來針對該等因素之相關預防作業，包括餐廳食材之準備程序改善作業提出具體作為。","Q5：請衛福部針對社會安全網，社工待遇偏低、社工人員編制不足、業務負擔過重；照護機構照護員人數不足，訓練不足，影響社會安全網實際運作之情形，提出具體改善作為。","Q6：請衛福部針對幼兒保母品質良莠不齊，提出具體改善作為說明。"],["委員張啓楷書面質詢：","本院張委員啓楷，有鑒於近期剴剴案等事件引起一連串對我國相關政策及社會安全網之檢討，目前國內中途之家與托育設施多由衛福部委請各民間NGO團體辦理，但履有監管或資源錯置、疊床架屋等問題，因此建請衛福部研議增設公辦中途之家與托育設施，特向衛福部提出質詢。"],["委員陳冠廷書面質詢：","議程：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「社會安全網缺失檢討及具體改進作法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。","二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就「出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告」進行專題報告，並備質詢。","一、保母疑虐童致死案，社會安全網、訪視機制有無精進之處？","去年十二月，一名一歲男童遭保母疑似虐待致死，很遺憾發生這樣的事情，我們認為政府機關應當檢討整個事件環節，政府應當照顧孩童、政府應當保護孩童，政府應當避免這樣的事情發生。","回顧案件發生經過，去年十二月二十四日男童因呼吸困難送醫後死亡，並發現有受虐跡象，然而自九月兒福聯盟送出養後，應當每月機構社工訪視，而台北市社會局社工，於出養後也應當每三個月訪視。我們知道機構、縣市政府社會局都會做到定期訪視，而這樣個別訪視的動作，有沒有機會共同合作？","我們認為或許可以由地方政府與服務機構一同協商，甚至由衛福部協調，訂定、調整相關辦法，共同訂定應訪視次數、政府督導查訪次數，合力分工協調，這樣才可減輕個別單位單一社工的訪視壓力，也避免社工訪視不正確的情形發生。","既然各單位都有在做訪視，與其在各單位增加次數，不如共同協調合作，在整體社工人數仍然不足時，增加整體的訪視次數，但共同合作分擔單一單位訪視頻率，若能協調機構與政府單位一同合作，不僅能減輕個別社工的壓力，同時也能讓每一次社工訪視更為精確。","其次，我們看到這次疑似虐童案，原訂12月社工的訪視，因為保母的推託，造成訪視時間的延宕，不僅不能在憾事發生時及時發現，也讓訪視對象有機會拖延、避免被社工察覺異狀。","因此，我們也認為未來應該明訂，在保母或寄養家庭拒訪時，可以透過公權力，進行訪視，若發現保母或是寄養家庭，在訪視前，不斷拒絕、不斷推辭，在這樣情況下，希望可以訂定相關法規，讓社工藉由通報機制，請地方政府尋求警察的協助，進行必要之訪視，這部分也請相關單位研擬，是否可以訂定相關規範？增加強制作為，以避免類似照顧者藉由拒訪，來避免虐童案件被發現。","最後，我們在上次專報時也提過，社工訪視制度，是否也可以納入不預告訪視？透過不預告訪視，除了可以讓社工看到最真實的照顧關係，也可以避免照顧者在訪視時，掩蓋、或是避開一些不想被注意的細節。","因此，我們希望相關單位，除了增加整體訪視的次數，也可以協調各單位協調分工，減輕個別社工訪視的壓力，同時也精進訪視的工作，如拒訪時的處理辦法、或是增加不預告訪視，以獲得最真實的訪視資訊，我們希望相關單位都能將以上建議納入考慮。"],["主席：現在做以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢及未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於二週內以書面答復。委員另要求期限者，從其所定。本次會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（13時22分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":526,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","林淑芬","陳菁徽","王育敏","廖偉翔","涂權吉","王正旭","盧縣一","郭昱晴","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 1166.698, \"end\": 1166.858, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1166.858, \"end\": 1167.258, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 1167.258, \"end\": 1167.438, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 1167.438, \"end\": 1168.999, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1168.999, \"end\": 1169.499, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 1169.499, \"end\": 1169.819, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 1169.819, \"end\": 1169.979, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 1169.979, \"end\": 1170.179, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1170.179, \"end\": 1170.279, \"score\": 0.64}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1170.279, \"end\": 1170.339, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1170.339, \"end\": 1171.84, \"score\": 0.947}, 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\"start\": 1176.741, \"end\": 1177.441, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"往\", \"start\": 1177.441, \"end\": 1177.642, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1177.642, \"end\": 1178.142, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1178.142, \"end\": 1178.762, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1178.762, \"end\": 1178.982, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 1178.982, \"end\": 1179.082, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1179.082, \"end\": 1179.162, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1179.162, \"end\": 1179.262, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1179.262, \"end\": 1179.362, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"臺\"}, {\"word\": \"北\", \"start\": 1179.362, \"end\": 1179.422, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 1179.422, \"end\": 1179.562, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"衛\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 1179.562, \"end\": 1179.862, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 1179.862, \"end\": 1180.222, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1180.222, \"end\": 1180.322, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1180.322, \"end\": 1180.642, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 1180.642, \"end\": 1180.823, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 1180.823, \"end\": 1181.403, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1181.403, \"end\": 1181.763, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1181.763, \"end\": 1182.283, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 1182.283, \"end\": 1182.543, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"掌\", \"start\": 1182.543, \"end\": 1182.703, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"握\", \"start\": 1182.703, \"end\": 1182.843, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 1182.843, \"end\": 1183.023, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1183.023, \"end\": 1183.123, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1183.123, \"end\": 1183.243, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1183.243, \"end\": 1184.244, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1184.244, \"end\": 1184.384, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1184.384, \"end\": 1184.524, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 1184.524, \"end\": 1184.664, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 1184.664, \"end\": 1184.684, \"score\": 0.005}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,434 --> 00:00:27,783\n好,謝謝主席。有請部長。請薛部長。委員好。部長好。部長今天針對主席排的這個專案還有另外在建立一個實案的問題還是要再提醒部長跟部長來討論。\n\n2\n00:00:29,676 --> 00:00:39,980\n我先請教部長凱凱安是不是確定符合這個脆弱家庭的服務對象?是那新北市政府中心有訪視外租母家的時候就凱凱的外租母家的時候\n\n3\n00:00:41,485 --> 00:00:57,178\n針對被兒童安置到臺北市的凱凱,新北市到底有沒有持續訪視的責任還有義務?理論上應該有,必須要去追,如果說他因為跨峽不方便的話,那應該要透過跟臺北市的聯繫把案子轉給臺北市有規範需要訪視到幾次嗎?\n\n4\n00:01:02,041 --> 00:01:29,715\n一個月一次一個月一次那凱凱被安置到臺北市多長時間啊這個新北市社福的社工去那邊幾次訪視幾次有沒有掌握去安置到臺北市去大概有三個月但是那個社福中心這邊並沒有去訪視去安置到臺北市有三個月時間嘛對不對後面對不起啊那個新北市的社福中心從來沒有去訪視過\n\n5\n00:01:31,109 --> 00:01:48,821\n從來沒有去恍事到連一次都沒有就對了而且他也沒有通知臺北市說這個是催家的兒童催後家庭兒童他也沒有通知臺北市這個是改改是催後家庭的兒童所以臺北市這邊也沒有辦法接手說一個月去一次\n\n6\n00:01:49,827 --> 00:02:06,057\n好,也變成臺北市也因為這樣也沒有去履行他應該我們所訂的相關的一些規範嘛就最少一個月去一次就對了就三個月反正就沒有臺北市跟新北市的相關的市府中心有去做訪視有去看而已\n\n7\n00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:31,966\n好沒關係好那這件事情是這樣嘛母親在懷孕期間凱凱的媽媽在懷孕她的時候有聯繫到兒童福利聯盟做相關的諮詢在生產之後又與兒女簽下這個出養的合約所以在懷孕與生產期間兒童到底有沒有去積極的輔導媽媽還是讓她有改變的這樣的心理留下孩子自己照顧\n\n8\n00:02:33,310 --> 00:02:41,998\n兒童福利聯盟是因為那個合約還沒有簽妥,這一個媽媽後來就失聯了對,他是在生產後簽的啦\n\n9\n00:02:44,407 --> 00:03:08,014\n他那時候有表達這個意願也簽了啦,兒童福利聯盟也接手了但是後來要,因為這個會牽涉到後面的出養的法律程序的問題結果媽媽就連續不到了,後來兒童福利聯盟就把他結案掉小孩子就回到他們的原生家庭由外祖母去找這個保母來照顧\n\n10\n00:03:09,834 --> 00:03:31,004\n這中間的話新北市的社福中心的話就積極的跟這個外祖母去聯繫希望改定監護人因為媽媽已經不見了所以希望說外祖母來做監護人那外祖母如果同意當監護人的時候他就可以再重啟所謂的出養的一個程序這個\n\n11\n00:03:36,567 --> 00:03:48,138\n外祖母已經成為監護人這樣的一個資格之後那這個出養程序他就可以再啟動但是外祖母那一天我們討論嘛我是這樣來比對嘛\n\n12\n00:03:52,302 --> 00:03:55,824\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就«出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告》\n\n13\n00:04:15,713 --> 00:04:41,115\n為什麼就那天部長打呼我的嗎?有查一口清嗎?去找臺北市那個保姆?從錢的角度來看的話,的確是有這樣的差距啦但是是不是他就是主要的原因,這個我們並沒有說很清楚不過從兒童聯盟他們的報告裡面有提到過當時在換手,也就是從第三個保姆到第四個保姆\n\n14\n00:04:42,755 --> 00:05:07,125\n這一個過程當中他有跟新北市的社福中心有討論過但是新北市的社福中心的報告裡面都沒有提到這件事情所以到底有沒有討論並不清楚理論上來講的話如果要這一個原來的這一個外祖母所聘用的這一個保母已經在照顧的時候\n\n15\n00:05:08,174 --> 00:05:33,842\n要轉手到另外一個保母的話應該是要做非常謹慎的評估因為他已經照顧一年了那後來新北市給我們的報告裡面提到說未來的改進措施的時候也在建議說這個保母要就是說這個照顧者跟這個小孩子應該要有更好的一個關係醫護關係啊這個就互相矛盾了對\n\n16\n00:05:34,902 --> 00:05:58,588\n真實的案件你說這個兒童福利聯盟對這件事情的說明是說因為這個原來的這個周姓保姆的話跟小孩子有太多的界限不分明但是新北市的報告裡面又說要建立依附關係這互相的矛盾啊\n\n17\n00:05:59,088 --> 00:06:18,811\n所以我很認真在聽你的敘述啊我聽矛盾的事情竟然還要聽這麼久我也變成矛盾了所以最後的話我們為什麼在我們今天的檢討報告裡面對新北市的我們這一點就提出質疑啊到底你是要怎樣?是要讓他有依附關係?\n\n18\n00:06:20,012 --> 00:06:45,277\n是對小孩子比較好還是說不要有太甚的醫護關係所以讓他出養是比較不會造成一種阻礙所以部長這個你們要慎重非常嚴謹的去徹查吧新北市到底是怎樣去評估這樣的一個脆弱家庭沒有資料對沒有資料嘛這問題就非常嚴重了嘛這是一條生命\n\n19\n00:06:48,735 --> 00:06:57,218\n我再來繼續請教部長這是新北市的這個部長一定要非常的嚴謹去徹查要把這個真相公諸於世\n\n20\n00:06:58,974 --> 00:07:26,290\n臺北市有送到四一會的一個專案報告中有提到這個流行保姆在一百年的七月考取保姆人員技術證的資格在這個資料可以部長參閱了並於一百一十一年檢護三個月內警察請示紀錄證明、體檢報告等向社會局提出登記證的申請並告知申請保姆是為了並告知喔並告知來申請保姆是為了符合兒母合作保姆資格\n\n21\n00:07:27,725 --> 00:07:48,077\n特別講到這句話紅線的部分然後臺北市的報告說本市居家托育服務中心到流女的托育地也進行四項的環境安全檢核所以也在111年的11月10號荷花居家市的托育服務證書這個流程沒問題對不對但是\n\n22\n00:07:51,579 --> 00:08:12,522\n但是我們在此之前在委員會還有看到相關的一些資料我們都會以為說兒童福利聯盟找上這名有合格執照的流行保姆好像兒童主動去找他的但其實好像不然我看這個樣子好像是這個保姆在取得服務資格前應該就已經跟兒童福利聯盟有某種程度上的連結\n\n23\n00:08:15,218 --> 00:08:30,363\n這實際上的原因我們是不清楚就是說他去申請保姆的資格是只有for這個兒童福利聯盟的合作還是還有其他原因因為事實上他總共收了三個小孩\n\n24\n00:08:31,744 --> 00:08:53,926\n那其中有一個是這個不是這一種安置的是等於是一般的嘛所以看起來也不完全是為了只是要照顧兒童福利聯盟所轉介過來的但是他還沒有取得這個托育服務證書之前他去申請他又特別講到就是要符合兒童合作保母的資格\n\n25\n00:08:55,627 --> 00:09:20,425\n但是這應該只是原因之一啦因為事實上他收的不完全都是兒童我想不論兒童的孩子或是任何一個機構的孩子本身會轉介到機構中這樣的一個照顧就會有層次上的不一樣嘛應該是這樣子嘛也就是說這樣的孩子他在原生家庭就已經出了問題嘛所以照顧上就不是一般的保母可以去照顧嘛所以\n\n26\n00:09:22,304 --> 00:09:48,545\n你看那個媒體報導齁,寫說尋問牛女的動機,這個保母動機他還理直氣壯地回說別人的小孩的父母親都會好好巴結保母希望保母能夠好好照顧小孩,這部長應該有看到吧但是這個小孩沒有爸爸媽媽在,沒有人來巴結他所以他一看到小孩就想揍他他一直為了錢在口中,要不是為了孫中山他根本不想照顧他\n\n27\n00:09:51,377 --> 00:10:15,347\n這就應該是已經是屬於社會人格偏差的這是一個脆弱家庭的小朋友然後又有父親也不曉得去向然後母親也通緝中這個小朋友遇到這個狀況已經讓人家很心疼了怎麼還會遇到真的伯母有這樣的心態\n\n28\n00:10:17,723 --> 00:10:37,055\n這個根本沒有做好這個兒童機構聘用保姆的一個最少的一個基本的條件嗎?對啦,不過像這種反社會人格的,老實講的話,你平常你還是看不出來,因為他不會寫在這裡說,我...不是啊,但是他講什麼,裡面也出問題\n\n29\n00:10:39,679 --> 00:11:03,674\n應該是沒有啦應該是沒有?你們是揣測還是調查?沒有沒有,你的應該沒有講清楚,是沒有還是應該沒有?這四個是有落差?我們沒有接到這一類的通報,三個有一個是很快就已經出養,另外一個是社區的這一個部分,那一個的小孩子應該是沒有看到有通報,所以主要是凱凱這一個\n\n30\n00:11:06,479 --> 00:11:18,226\n所以我們兒務機構在找保姆應該有一定程度的規範嘛對不對你衛務部還有頒布一個叫慈祥縣市運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則嘛\n\n31\n00:11:19,562 --> 00:11:41,539\n這都是你們當時的規範嘛這處理的原則第三點就提到主管機關得自行或委託相關專業機構、團體辦理下列事項第一,建立至少並建立並至少每六個月盤點適合照顧安置個案之拘托人員名單這個有做嗎?現實有做,台北市沒有對,應該是沒有,他們有做嗎?台北市沒有,因為他們認為是養家庭\n\n32\n00:11:46,710 --> 00:12:02,110\n這個部分臺北市他們認為他們現在的安置資源已經足夠了包括機構包括寄養家庭所以他們目前就沒有這份的名單沒有去建立這樣的名單不是我們不是有個處理原則是啊所以它是原則\n\n33\n00:12:03,975 --> 00:12:23,994\n對,就是如果他要運用安置資源要運用到保姆的話那我們要請他要依這個原則來辦理那臺北市覺得他們資源夠了沒有要用到保姆所以他們就沒有所以今天資源夠還發生這樣的事情這叫資源夠了這些機構小朋友家庭背景上\n\n34\n00:12:25,115 --> 00:12:49,113\n他本身就是有些問題嘛在照顧上就是要比照顧一般小朋友要更專業嘛對不對所以你們第三點又提到喔主管機關要提供這個居托人員照顧家外安置兒童的相關專業的訓練嘛第一點也規定經主管機關交付安置個案之居托人員與首次照顧安置個案前接受職前訓練課程建立至少要6小時對嗎?他這個有嗎?\n\n35\n00:12:56,136 --> 00:13:13,921\n因為現在兒童福利聯盟用的這個保姆他並不是在這個原則下所建立的保姆名單那為什麼沒有這個名單因為臺北市覺得不需要去建立他的安置資源已經夠了所以目前這個這個\n\n36\n00:13:16,341 --> 00:13:37,772\n有出這個事件的這個保姆他其實是不在這個原則下有接受訓練過的保姆你看我該怎麼再問你們我覺得這樣講好像很奇怪他的資源足夠了所以他就不需要來遵守這樣的原則所以導致這樣的一個小朋友就出了這樣的問題\n\n37\n00:13:39,454 --> 00:14:05,102\n因為這個是新北然後出養那他是請兒童那兒童他就自己去找保姆對所以就這個保姆就沒有接受過這個訓練的那他也沒有去跟臺北市說有沒有比較好的一個保姆他也沒有去做這樣一個詢問不是啊次長你這樣保姆好像說新北市他去臺北市\n\n38\n00:14:05,543 --> 00:14:23,703\n他覺得他支援夠了所以他就不需要遵守這個原則你的邏輯是這樣喔你打呼我這樣是很奇怪一件事情喔這個原則到底該不該遵守應該不能講說他有足夠支援或沒有支援的情況之下這個原則就是必須要遵守應該是這樣才對嘛\n\n39\n00:14:27,260 --> 00:14:44,296\n我想這個是委託安置啦那也就是說臺北市認為他可能說他的機構是夠的他的寄養價值是夠的所以他不需要再用保母來做這一種安置所以他基本上就沒有提供\n\n40\n00:14:45,397 --> 00:15:08,107\n現有的保姆系統去做接受這種政府委託安置的案例,他就沒有去做這個訓練所以部長跟市長打互吼就是有這樣的一個盲點嗎?對,但是事實上像今天這個案例是新北市這邊介紹過來的,跑到臺北市來的\n\n41\n00:15:09,447 --> 00:15:30,362\n阿臺北市就沒有用這種居家托育的系統來做安置嘛所以譬如說以兒童福利聯盟就自己找一般的保母來做這個安置問題就在這個地方阿這些一般的保母並沒有去接受這種特殊的訓練\n\n42\n00:15:32,148 --> 00:15:39,278\n你這樣不小心又發生兩個盲點一個是公務機關一個是這個兒童機構通通一直存在這種盲點\n\n43\n00:15:40,684 --> 00:15:55,272\n這個盲點到底要怎麼解決?今天如果沒有這樣的盲點,可能就沒有這件事情嗎?因為你們第五點又寫這樣,經由主管機關交付安置個案追劇動員,與首次照顧安置個案前接受諮詢訓練要6個小時,對不對?然後安置個案的類型,創傷經驗及問題輔導,這個要比一般保姆的執訓還要專業課程\n\n44\n00:16:04,357 --> 00:16:20,503\n所以我們未來等於說未來要做的事情就要補好這一塊第一個如果要接受這種政府委託的家外安置的case的時候你應該要受到比較強的一個教育訓練那第二個這一個\n\n45\n00:16:21,912 --> 00:16:44,441\n如果有跨峽的時候一定要把這個訊息送過去因為如果我們假設嘛如果今天新北市有把這個他屬於翠家所以他需要另外的一個安置這個訊息有給臺北市臺北市說我沒有保姆來做這件事情因為我不需要但是我有寄養家庭那這個小孩子就會跑到寄養家庭去了\n\n46\n00:16:45,061 --> 00:17:08,347\n根本就不會發生今天的事情所以他前置認定他支援足夠後置他該做的動作也沒有去做了簡單講就這樣嘛我請部長就好好反正把它查得清清楚楚啦好不好然後該補的該把這個盲點把它去除掉也是要去除掉了吧我最後一個問題主席已經站起來了因為時間關係齁我還針對這個實案的問題我那天\n\n47\n00:17:12,714 --> 00:17:31,623\n我實在我在講的話可能大家就把它聽進去了而且我最討厭我有提醒的事情明明我們可以去做一些緩緩然後不夠積極這樣就不好因為我現在不是在講食安署沒有做這個事情我是說食安的這種東西會拖啦\n\n48\n00:17:32,603 --> 00:17:38,967\n今天這個事情,我不曉得衛福部昨天有開啦,就針對這個保齡茶室,表示可能是這個米酵菌酸嘛對不對,應該造成這次阻音嘛,然後我們實驗室的檢驗可能要兩週才可以確定嘛,是不是可以加快一點?\n\n49\n00:18:00,424 --> 00:18:28,096\n因為這個這麼廣泛的一個這個拿到了我們就趕快來進行開始做檢驗但是因為目前其他的物質引起來的中毒的可能性也沒有排除所以其他物質包括農藥等等這一些我們就先做了好我再要提醒一點如果根據食安法的這個食安條規定經專管公告類別及規模支持品業者應該投保產品的責任保險\n\n50\n00:18:30,438 --> 00:18:58,174\n這我們會去開罰啦,這一個部分的話我們會請...不是不是,有投保嗎?他有投保,但是保險到期他沒有續保那怎麼辦?而且你現在續保他,我的訊息他是3月底就要結束營業,不是他要照啊?但是他現在就要,所以馬上就是要去做...他是去年10月就到期了嗎?對去年10月喔?對那本年已經進了第一季喔,他第一季就要結束營業喔?對\n\n51\n00:19:00,112 --> 00:19:16,452\n你那麼可以依據47條去處3萬元以上、3百萬元以下罰款嗎?對不對?那情節中大者還可以歇業嗎?停業嗎?停業已經對他沒有意義了對嘛,已經沒有意義了所以現在就是要去罰款我覺得現在連罰款都可能也罰不到了\n\n52\n00:19:17,475 --> 00:19:44,684\n有沒有啟動防拖的機制?因為你先要做處分出去的話,那如果沒有什麼太大問題,我們直接就做那個行政執行嘛。對。就進入強制執行。是不是該啟動那個防拖的機制?對。對啊,不然這些已經因為這樣過往的,還有在醫院的。我們會跟臺北市衛生局會跟他提醒。好,請部長具體掌握啦,好不好?好。好,謝謝主席,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8434\t27783\t好,謝謝主席。有請部長。請薛部長。委員好。部長好。部長今天針對主席排的這個專案還有另外在建立一個實案的問題還是要再提醒部長跟部長來討論。\n29676\t39980\t我先請教部長凱凱安是不是確定符合這個脆弱家庭的服務對象?是那新北市政府中心有訪視外租母家的時候就凱凱的外租母家的時候\n41485\t57178\t針對被兒童安置到臺北市的凱凱,新北市到底有沒有持續訪視的責任還有義務?理論上應該有,必須要去追,如果說他因為跨峽不方便的話,那應該要透過跟臺北市的聯繫把案子轉給臺北市有規範需要訪視到幾次嗎?\n62041\t89715\t一個月一次一個月一次那凱凱被安置到臺北市多長時間啊這個新北市社福的社工去那邊幾次訪視幾次有沒有掌握去安置到臺北市去大概有三個月但是那個社福中心這邊並沒有去訪視去安置到臺北市有三個月時間嘛對不對後面對不起啊那個新北市的社福中心從來沒有去訪視過\n91109\t108821\t從來沒有去恍事到連一次都沒有就對了而且他也沒有通知臺北市說這個是催家的兒童催後家庭兒童他也沒有通知臺北市這個是改改是催後家庭的兒童所以臺北市這邊也沒有辦法接手說一個月去一次\n109827\t126057\t好,也變成臺北市也因為這樣也沒有去履行他應該我們所訂的相關的一些規範嘛就最少一個月去一次就對了就三個月反正就沒有臺北市跟新北市的相關的市府中心有去做訪視有去看而已\n126360\t151966\t好沒關係好那這件事情是這樣嘛母親在懷孕期間凱凱的媽媽在懷孕她的時候有聯繫到兒童福利聯盟做相關的諮詢在生產之後又與兒女簽下這個出養的合約所以在懷孕與生產期間兒童到底有沒有去積極的輔導媽媽還是讓她有改變的這樣的心理留下孩子自己照顧\n153310\t161998\t兒童福利聯盟是因為那個合約還沒有簽妥,這一個媽媽後來就失聯了對,他是在生產後簽的啦\n164407\t188014\t他那時候有表達這個意願也簽了啦,兒童福利聯盟也接手了但是後來要,因為這個會牽涉到後面的出養的法律程序的問題結果媽媽就連續不到了,後來兒童福利聯盟就把他結案掉小孩子就回到他們的原生家庭由外祖母去找這個保母來照顧\n189834\t211004\t這中間的話新北市的社福中心的話就積極的跟這個外祖母去聯繫希望改定監護人因為媽媽已經不見了所以希望說外祖母來做監護人那外祖母如果同意當監護人的時候他就可以再重啟所謂的出養的一個程序這個\n216567\t228138\t外祖母已經成為監護人這樣的一個資格之後那這個出養程序他就可以再啟動但是外祖母那一天我們討論嘛我是這樣來比對嘛\n232302\t235824\t二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就 «出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告》\n255713\t281115\t為什麼就那天部長打呼我的嗎?有查一口清嗎?去找臺北市那個保姆?從錢的角度來看的話,的確是有這樣的差距啦但是是不是他就是主要的原因,這個我們並沒有說很清楚不過從兒童聯盟他們的報告裡面有提到過當時在換手,也就是從第三個保姆到第四個保姆\n282755\t307125\t這一個過程當中他有跟新北市的社福中心有討論過但是新北市的社福中心的報告裡面都沒有提到這件事情所以到底有沒有討論並不清楚理論上來講的話如果要這一個原來的這一個外祖母所聘用的這一個保母已經在照顧的時候\n308174\t333842\t要轉手到另外一個保母的話應該是要做非常謹慎的評估因為他已經照顧一年了那後來新北市給我們的報告裡面提到說未來的改進措施的時候也在建議說這個保母要就是說這個照顧者跟這個小孩子應該要有更好的一個關係醫護關係啊這個就互相矛盾了對\n334902\t358588\t真實的案件你說這個兒童福利聯盟對這件事情的說明是說因為這個原來的這個周姓保姆的話跟小孩子有太多的界限不分明但是新北市的報告裡面又說要建立依附關係這互相的矛盾啊\n359088\t378811\t所以我很認真在聽你的敘述啊我聽矛盾的事情竟然還要聽這麼久我也變成矛盾了所以最後的話我們為什麼在我們今天的檢討報告裡面對新北市的我們這一點就提出質疑啊到底你是要怎樣?是要讓他有依附關係?\n380012\t405277\t是對小孩子比較好還是說不要有太甚的醫護關係所以讓他出養是比較不會造成一種阻礙所以部長這個你們要慎重非常嚴謹的去徹查吧新北市到底是怎樣去評估這樣的一個脆弱家庭沒有資料對沒有資料嘛這問題就非常嚴重了嘛這是一條生命\n408735\t417218\t我再來繼續請教部長這是新北市的這個部長一定要非常的嚴謹去徹查要把這個真相公諸於世\n418974\t446290\t臺北市有送到四一會的一個專案報告中有提到這個流行保姆在一百年的七月考取保姆人員技術證的資格在這個資料可以部長參閱了並於一百一十一年檢護三個月內警察請示紀錄證明、體檢報告等向社會局提出登記證的申請並告知申請保姆是為了並告知喔並告知來申請保姆是為了符合兒母合作保姆資格\n447725\t468077\t特別講到這句話紅線的部分然後臺北市的報告說本市居家托育服務中心到流女的托育地也進行四項的環境安全檢核所以也在111年的11月10號荷花居家市的托育服務證書這個流程沒問題對不對但是\n471579\t492522\t但是我們在此之前在委員會還有看到相關的一些資料我們都會以為說兒童福利聯盟找上這名有合格執照的流行保姆好像兒童主動去找他的但其實好像不然我看這個樣子好像是這個保姆在取得服務資格前應該就已經跟兒童福利聯盟有某種程度上的連結\n495218\t510363\t這實際上的原因我們是不清楚就是說他去申請保姆的資格是只有for這個兒童福利聯盟的合作還是還有其他原因因為事實上他總共收了三個小孩\n511744\t533926\t那其中有一個是這個不是這一種安置的是等於是一般的嘛所以看起來也不完全是為了只是要照顧兒童福利聯盟所轉介過來的但是他還沒有取得這個托育服務證書之前他去申請他又特別講到就是要符合兒童合作保母的資格\n535627\t560425\t但是這應該只是原因之一啦因為事實上他收的不完全都是兒童我想不論兒童的孩子或是任何一個機構的孩子本身會轉介到機構中這樣的一個照顧就會有層次上的不一樣嘛應該是這樣子嘛也就是說這樣的孩子他在原生家庭就已經出了問題嘛所以照顧上就不是一般的保母可以去照顧嘛所以\n562304\t588545\t你看那個媒體報導齁,寫說尋問牛女的動機,這個保母動機他還理直氣壯地回說別人的小孩的父母親都會好好巴結保母希望保母能夠好好照顧小孩,這部長應該有看到吧但是這個小孩沒有爸爸媽媽在,沒有人來巴結他所以他一看到小孩就想揍他他一直為了錢在口中,要不是為了孫中山他根本不想照顧他\n591377\t615347\t這就應該是已經是屬於社會人格偏差的這是一個脆弱家庭的小朋友然後又有父親也不曉得去向然後母親也通緝中這個小朋友遇到這個狀況已經讓人家很心疼了怎麼還會遇到真的伯母有這樣的心態\n617723\t637055\t這個根本沒有做好這個兒童機構聘用保姆的一個最少的一個基本的條件嗎?對啦,不過像這種反社會人格的,老實講的話,你平常你還是看不出來,因為他不會寫在這裡說,我...不是啊,但是他講什麼,裡面也出問題\n639679\t663674\t應該是沒有啦應該是沒有?你們是揣測還是調查?沒有沒有,你的應該沒有講清楚,是沒有還是應該沒有?這四個是有落差?我們沒有接到這一類的通報,三個有一個是很快就已經出養,另外一個是社區的這一個部分,那一個的小孩子應該是沒有看到有通報,所以主要是凱凱這一個\n666479\t678226\t所以我們兒務機構在找保姆應該有一定程度的規範嘛對不對你衛務部還有頒布一個叫慈祥縣市運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則嘛\n679562\t701539\t這都是你們當時的規範嘛這處理的原則第三點就提到主管機關得自行或委託相關專業機構、團體辦理下列事項第一,建立至少並建立並至少每六個月盤點適合照顧安置個案之拘托人員名單這個有做嗎?現實有做,台北市沒有對,應該是沒有,他們有做嗎?台北市沒有,因為他們認為是養家庭\n706710\t722110\t這個部分臺北市他們認為他們現在的安置資源已經足夠了包括機構包括寄養家庭所以他們目前就沒有這份的名單沒有去建立這樣的名單不是我們不是有個處理原則是啊所以它是原則\n723975\t743994\t對,就是如果他要運用安置資源要運用到保姆的話那我們要請他要依這個原則來辦理那臺北市覺得他們資源夠了沒有要用到保姆所以他們就沒有所以今天資源夠還發生這樣的事情這叫資源夠了這些機構小朋友家庭背景上\n745115\t769113\t他本身就是有些問題嘛在照顧上就是要比照顧一般小朋友要更專業嘛對不對所以你們第三點又提到喔主管機關要提供這個居托人員照顧家外安置兒童的相關專業的訓練嘛第一點也規定經主管機關交付安置個案之居托人員與首次照顧安置個案前接受職前訓練課程建立至少要6小時對嗎?他這個有嗎?\n776136\t793921\t因為現在兒童福利聯盟用的這個保姆他並不是在這個原則下所建立的保姆名單那為什麼沒有這個名單因為臺北市覺得不需要去建立他的安置資源已經夠了所以目前這個這個\n796341\t817772\t有出這個事件的這個保姆他其實是不在這個原則下有接受訓練過的保姆你看我該怎麼再問你們我覺得這樣講好像很奇怪他的資源足夠了所以他就不需要來遵守這樣的原則所以導致這樣的一個小朋友就出了這樣的問題\n819454\t845102\t因為這個是新北然後出養那他是請兒童那兒童他就自己去找保姆對所以就這個保姆就沒有接受過這個訓練的那他也沒有去跟臺北市說有沒有比較好的一個保姆他也沒有去做這樣一個詢問不是啊次長你這樣保姆好像說新北市他去臺北市\n845543\t863703\t他覺得他支援夠了所以他就不需要遵守這個原則你的邏輯是這樣喔你打呼我這樣是很奇怪一件事情喔這個原則到底該不該遵守應該不能講說他有足夠支援或沒有支援的情況之下這個原則就是必須要遵守應該是這樣才對嘛\n867260\t884296\t我想這個是委託安置啦那也就是說臺北市認為他可能說他的機構是夠的他的寄養價值是夠的所以他不需要再用保母來做這一種安置所以他基本上就沒有提供\n885397\t908107\t現有的保姆系統去做接受這種政府委託安置的案例,他就沒有去做這個訓練所以部長跟市長打互吼就是有這樣的一個盲點嗎?對,但是事實上像今天這個案例是新北市這邊介紹過來的,跑到臺北市來的\n909447\t930362\t阿臺北市就沒有用這種居家托育的系統來做安置嘛所以譬如說以兒童福利聯盟就自己找一般的保母來做這個安置問題就在這個地方阿這些一般的保母並沒有去接受這種特殊的訓練\n932148\t939278\t你這樣不小心又發生兩個盲點一個是公務機關一個是這個兒童機構通通一直存在這種盲點\n940684\t955272\t這個盲點到底要怎麼解決?今天如果沒有這樣的盲點,可能就沒有這件事情嗎?因為你們第五點又寫這樣,經由主管機關交付安置個案追劇動員,與首次照顧安置個案前接受諮詢訓練要6個小時,對不對?然後安置個案的類型,創傷經驗及問題輔導,這個要比一般保姆的執訓還要專業課程\n964357\t980503\t所以我們未來等於說未來要做的事情就要補好這一塊第一個如果要接受這種政府委託的家外安置的case的時候你應該要受到比較強的一個教育訓練那第二個這一個\n981912\t1004441\t如果有跨峽的時候一定要把這個訊息送過去因為如果我們假設嘛如果今天新北市有把這個他屬於翠家所以他需要另外的一個安置這個訊息有給臺北市臺北市說我沒有保姆來做這件事情因為我不需要但是我有寄養家庭那這個小孩子就會跑到寄養家庭去了\n1005061\t1028347\t根本就不會發生今天的事情所以他前置認定他支援足夠後置他該做的動作也沒有去做了簡單講就這樣嘛我請部長就好好反正把它查得清清楚楚啦好不好然後該補的該把這個盲點把它去除掉也是要去除掉了吧我最後一個問題主席已經站起來了因為時間關係齁我還針對這個實案的問題我那天\n1032714\t1051623\t我實在我在講的話可能大家就把它聽進去了而且我最討厭我有提醒的事情明明我們可以去做一些緩緩然後不夠積極這樣就不好因為我現在不是在講食安署沒有做這個事情我是說食安的這種東西會拖啦\n1052603\t1058967\t今天這個事情,我不曉得衛福部昨天有開啦,就針對這個保齡茶室,表示可能是這個米酵菌酸嘛對不對,應該造成這次阻音嘛,然後我們實驗室的檢驗可能要兩週才可以確定嘛,是不是可以加快一點?\n1080424\t1108096\t因為這個這麼廣泛的一個這個拿到了我們就趕快來進行開始做檢驗但是因為目前其他的物質引起來的中毒的可能性也沒有排除所以其他物質包括農藥等等這一些我們就先做了好我再要提醒一點如果根據食安法的這個食安條規定經專管公告類別及規模支持品業者應該投保產品的責任保險\n1110438\t1138174\t這我們會去開罰啦,這一個部分的話我們會請...不是不是,有投保嗎?他有投保,但是保險到期他沒有續保那怎麼辦?而且你現在續保他,我的訊息他是3月底就要結束營業,不是他要照啊?但是他現在就要,所以馬上就是要去做...他是去年10月就到期了嗎?對去年10月喔?對那本年已經進了第一季喔,他第一季就要結束營業喔?對\n1140112\t1156452\t你那麼可以依據47條去處3萬元以上、3百萬元以下罰款嗎?對不對?那情節中大者還可以歇業嗎?停業嗎?停業已經對他沒有意義了對嘛,已經沒有意義了所以現在就是要去罰款我覺得現在連罰款都可能也罰不到了\n1157475\t1184684\t有沒有啟動防拖的機制?因為你先要做處分出去的話,那如果沒有什麼太大問題,我們直接就做那個行政執行嘛。對。就進入強制執行。是不是該啟動那個防拖的機制?對。對啊,不然這些已經因為這樣過往的,還有在醫院的。我們會跟臺北市衛生局會跟他提醒。好,請部長具體掌握啦,好不好?好。好,謝謝主席,謝謝。\n1186852\t1187585\t謝謝\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席。有請部長。請薛部長。委員好。部長好。部長今天針對主席排的這個專案還有另外在建立一個實案的問題還是要再提醒部長跟部長來討論。\n我先請教部長凱凱安是不是確定符合這個脆弱家庭的服務對象?是那新北市政府中心有訪視外租母家的時候就凱凱的外租母家的時候\n針對被兒童安置到臺北市的凱凱,新北市到底有沒有持續訪視的責任還有義務?理論上應該有,必須要去追,如果說他因為跨峽不方便的話,那應該要透過跟臺北市的聯繫把案子轉給臺北市有規範需要訪視到幾次嗎?\n一個月一次一個月一次那凱凱被安置到臺北市多長時間啊這個新北市社福的社工去那邊幾次訪視幾次有沒有掌握去安置到臺北市去大概有三個月但是那個社福中心這邊並沒有去訪視去安置到臺北市有三個月時間嘛對不對後面對不起啊那個新北市的社福中心從來沒有去訪視過\n從來沒有去恍事到連一次都沒有就對了而且他也沒有通知臺北市說這個是催家的兒童催後家庭兒童他也沒有通知臺北市這個是改改是催後家庭的兒童所以臺北市這邊也沒有辦法接手說一個月去一次\n好,也變成臺北市也因為這樣也沒有去履行他應該我們所訂的相關的一些規範嘛就最少一個月去一次就對了就三個月反正就沒有臺北市跟新北市的相關的市府中心有去做訪視有去看而已\n好沒關係好那這件事情是這樣嘛母親在懷孕期間凱凱的媽媽在懷孕她的時候有聯繫到兒童福利聯盟做相關的諮詢在生產之後又與兒女簽下這個出養的合約所以在懷孕與生產期間兒童到底有沒有去積極的輔導媽媽還是讓她有改變的這樣的心理留下孩子自己照顧\n兒童福利聯盟是因為那個合約還沒有簽妥,這一個媽媽後來就失聯了對,他是在生產後簽的啦\n他那時候有表達這個意願也簽了啦,兒童福利聯盟也接手了但是後來要,因為這個會牽涉到後面的出養的法律程序的問題結果媽媽就連續不到了,後來兒童福利聯盟就把他結案掉小孩子就回到他們的原生家庭由外祖母去找這個保母來照顧\n這中間的話新北市的社福中心的話就積極的跟這個外祖母去聯繫希望改定監護人因為媽媽已經不見了所以希望說外祖母來做監護人那外祖母如果同意當監護人的時候他就可以再重啟所謂的出養的一個程序這個\n外祖母已經成為監護人這樣的一個資格之後那這個出養程序他就可以再啟動但是外祖母那一天我們討論嘛我是這樣來比對嘛\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就 «出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告》\n為什麼就那天部長打呼我的嗎?有查一口清嗎?去找臺北市那個保姆?從錢的角度來看的話,的確是有這樣的差距啦但是是不是他就是主要的原因,這個我們並沒有說很清楚不過從兒童聯盟他們的報告裡面有提到過當時在換手,也就是從第三個保姆到第四個保姆\n這一個過程當中他有跟新北市的社福中心有討論過但是新北市的社福中心的報告裡面都沒有提到這件事情所以到底有沒有討論並不清楚理論上來講的話如果要這一個原來的這一個外祖母所聘用的這一個保母已經在照顧的時候\n要轉手到另外一個保母的話應該是要做非常謹慎的評估因為他已經照顧一年了那後來新北市給我們的報告裡面提到說未來的改進措施的時候也在建議說這個保母要就是說這個照顧者跟這個小孩子應該要有更好的一個關係醫護關係啊這個就互相矛盾了對\n真實的案件你說這個兒童福利聯盟對這件事情的說明是說因為這個原來的這個周姓保姆的話跟小孩子有太多的界限不分明但是新北市的報告裡面又說要建立依附關係這互相的矛盾啊\n所以我很認真在聽你的敘述啊我聽矛盾的事情竟然還要聽這麼久我也變成矛盾了所以最後的話我們為什麼在我們今天的檢討報告裡面對新北市的我們這一點就提出質疑啊到底你是要怎樣?是要讓他有依附關係?\n是對小孩子比較好還是說不要有太甚的醫護關係所以讓他出養是比較不會造成一種阻礙所以部長這個你們要慎重非常嚴謹的去徹查吧新北市到底是怎樣去評估這樣的一個脆弱家庭沒有資料對沒有資料嘛這問題就非常嚴重了嘛這是一條生命\n我再來繼續請教部長這是新北市的這個部長一定要非常的嚴謹去徹查要把這個真相公諸於世\n臺北市有送到四一會的一個專案報告中有提到這個流行保姆在一百年的七月考取保姆人員技術證的資格在這個資料可以部長參閱了並於一百一十一年檢護三個月內警察請示紀錄證明、體檢報告等向社會局提出登記證的申請並告知申請保姆是為了並告知喔並告知來申請保姆是為了符合兒母合作保姆資格\n特別講到這句話紅線的部分然後臺北市的報告說本市居家托育服務中心到流女的托育地也進行四項的環境安全檢核所以也在111年的11月10號荷花居家市的托育服務證書這個流程沒問題對不對但是\n但是我們在此之前在委員會還有看到相關的一些資料我們都會以為說兒童福利聯盟找上這名有合格執照的流行保姆好像兒童主動去找他的但其實好像不然我看這個樣子好像是這個保姆在取得服務資格前應該就已經跟兒童福利聯盟有某種程度上的連結\n這實際上的原因我們是不清楚就是說他去申請保姆的資格是只有for這個兒童福利聯盟的合作還是還有其他原因因為事實上他總共收了三個小孩\n那其中有一個是這個不是這一種安置的是等於是一般的嘛所以看起來也不完全是為了只是要照顧兒童福利聯盟所轉介過來的但是他還沒有取得這個托育服務證書之前他去申請他又特別講到就是要符合兒童合作保母的資格\n但是這應該只是原因之一啦因為事實上他收的不完全都是兒童我想不論兒童的孩子或是任何一個機構的孩子本身會轉介到機構中這樣的一個照顧就會有層次上的不一樣嘛應該是這樣子嘛也就是說這樣的孩子他在原生家庭就已經出了問題嘛所以照顧上就不是一般的保母可以去照顧嘛所以\n你看那個媒體報導齁,寫說尋問牛女的動機,這個保母動機他還理直氣壯地回說別人的小孩的父母親都會好好巴結保母希望保母能夠好好照顧小孩,這部長應該有看到吧但是這個小孩沒有爸爸媽媽在,沒有人來巴結他所以他一看到小孩就想揍他他一直為了錢在口中,要不是為了孫中山他根本不想照顧他\n這就應該是已經是屬於社會人格偏差的這是一個脆弱家庭的小朋友然後又有父親也不曉得去向然後母親也通緝中這個小朋友遇到這個狀況已經讓人家很心疼了怎麼還會遇到真的伯母有這樣的心態\n這個根本沒有做好這個兒童機構聘用保姆的一個最少的一個基本的條件嗎?對啦,不過像這種反社會人格的,老實講的話,你平常你還是看不出來,因為他不會寫在這裡說,我...不是啊,但是他講什麼,裡面也出問題\n應該是沒有啦應該是沒有?你們是揣測還是調查?沒有沒有,你的應該沒有講清楚,是沒有還是應該沒有?這四個是有落差?我們沒有接到這一類的通報,三個有一個是很快就已經出養,另外一個是社區的這一個部分,那一個的小孩子應該是沒有看到有通報,所以主要是凱凱這一個\n所以我們兒務機構在找保姆應該有一定程度的規範嘛對不對你衛務部還有頒布一個叫慈祥縣市運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則嘛\n這都是你們當時的規範嘛這處理的原則第三點就提到主管機關得自行或委託相關專業機構、團體辦理下列事項第一,建立至少並建立並至少每六個月盤點適合照顧安置個案之拘托人員名單這個有做嗎?現實有做,台北市沒有對,應該是沒有,他們有做嗎?台北市沒有,因為他們認為是養家庭\n這個部分臺北市他們認為他們現在的安置資源已經足夠了包括機構包括寄養家庭所以他們目前就沒有這份的名單沒有去建立這樣的名單不是我們不是有個處理原則是啊所以它是原則\n對,就是如果他要運用安置資源要運用到保姆的話那我們要請他要依這個原則來辦理那臺北市覺得他們資源夠了沒有要用到保姆所以他們就沒有所以今天資源夠還發生這樣的事情這叫資源夠了這些機構小朋友家庭背景上\n他本身就是有些問題嘛在照顧上就是要比照顧一般小朋友要更專業嘛對不對所以你們第三點又提到喔主管機關要提供這個居托人員照顧家外安置兒童的相關專業的訓練嘛第一點也規定經主管機關交付安置個案之居托人員與首次照顧安置個案前接受職前訓練課程建立至少要6小時對嗎?他這個有嗎?\n因為現在兒童福利聯盟用的這個保姆他並不是在這個原則下所建立的保姆名單那為什麼沒有這個名單因為臺北市覺得不需要去建立他的安置資源已經夠了所以目前這個這個\n有出這個事件的這個保姆他其實是不在這個原則下有接受訓練過的保姆你看我該怎麼再問你們我覺得這樣講好像很奇怪他的資源足夠了所以他就不需要來遵守這樣的原則所以導致這樣的一個小朋友就出了這樣的問題\n因為這個是新北然後出養那他是請兒童那兒童他就自己去找保姆對所以就這個保姆就沒有接受過這個訓練的那他也沒有去跟臺北市說有沒有比較好的一個保姆他也沒有去做這樣一個詢問不是啊次長你這樣保姆好像說新北市他去臺北市\n他覺得他支援夠了所以他就不需要遵守這個原則你的邏輯是這樣喔你打呼我這樣是很奇怪一件事情喔這個原則到底該不該遵守應該不能講說他有足夠支援或沒有支援的情況之下這個原則就是必須要遵守應該是這樣才對嘛\n我想這個是委託安置啦那也就是說臺北市認為他可能說他的機構是夠的他的寄養價值是夠的所以他不需要再用保母來做這一種安置所以他基本上就沒有提供\n現有的保姆系統去做接受這種政府委託安置的案例,他就沒有去做這個訓練所以部長跟市長打互吼就是有這樣的一個盲點嗎?對,但是事實上像今天這個案例是新北市這邊介紹過來的,跑到臺北市來的\n阿臺北市就沒有用這種居家托育的系統來做安置嘛所以譬如說以兒童福利聯盟就自己找一般的保母來做這個安置問題就在這個地方阿這些一般的保母並沒有去接受這種特殊的訓練\n你這樣不小心又發生兩個盲點一個是公務機關一個是這個兒童機構通通一直存在這種盲點\n這個盲點到底要怎麼解決?今天如果沒有這樣的盲點,可能就沒有這件事情嗎?因為你們第五點又寫這樣,經由主管機關交付安置個案追劇動員,與首次照顧安置個案前接受諮詢訓練要6個小時,對不對?然後安置個案的類型,創傷經驗及問題輔導,這個要比一般保姆的執訓還要專業課程\n所以我們未來等於說未來要做的事情就要補好這一塊第一個如果要接受這種政府委託的家外安置的case的時候你應該要受到比較強的一個教育訓練那第二個這一個\n如果有跨峽的時候一定要把這個訊息送過去因為如果我們假設嘛如果今天新北市有把這個他屬於翠家所以他需要另外的一個安置這個訊息有給臺北市臺北市說我沒有保姆來做這件事情因為我不需要但是我有寄養家庭那這個小孩子就會跑到寄養家庭去了\n根本就不會發生今天的事情所以他前置認定他支援足夠後置他該做的動作也沒有去做了簡單講就這樣嘛我請部長就好好反正把它查得清清楚楚啦好不好然後該補的該把這個盲點把它去除掉也是要去除掉了吧我最後一個問題主席已經站起來了因為時間關係齁我還針對這個實案的問題我那天\n我實在我在講的話可能大家就把它聽進去了而且我最討厭我有提醒的事情明明我們可以去做一些緩緩然後不夠積極這樣就不好因為我現在不是在講食安署沒有做這個事情我是說食安的這種東西會拖啦\n今天這個事情,我不曉得衛福部昨天有開啦,就針對這個保齡茶室,表示可能是這個米酵菌酸嘛對不對,應該造成這次阻音嘛,然後我們實驗室的檢驗可能要兩週才可以確定嘛,是不是可以加快一點?\n因為這個這麼廣泛的一個這個拿到了我們就趕快來進行開始做檢驗但是因為目前其他的物質引起來的中毒的可能性也沒有排除所以其他物質包括農藥等等這一些我們就先做了好我再要提醒一點如果根據食安法的這個食安條規定經專管公告類別及規模支持品業者應該投保產品的責任保險\n這我們會去開罰啦,這一個部分的話我們會請...不是不是,有投保嗎?他有投保,但是保險到期他沒有續保那怎麼辦?而且你現在續保他,我的訊息他是3月底就要結束營業,不是他要照啊?但是他現在就要,所以馬上就是要去做...他是去年10月就到期了嗎?對去年10月喔?對那本年已經進了第一季喔,他第一季就要結束營業喔?對\n你那麼可以依據47條去處3萬元以上、3百萬元以下罰款嗎?對不對?那情節中大者還可以歇業嗎?停業嗎?停業已經對他沒有意義了對嘛,已經沒有意義了所以現在就是要去罰款我覺得現在連罰款都可能也罰不到了\n有沒有啟動防拖的機制?因為你先要做處分出去的話,那如果沒有什麼太大問題,我們直接就做那個行政執行嘛。對。就進入強制執行。是不是該啟動那個防拖的機制?對。對啊,不然這些已經因為這樣過往的,還有在醫院的。我們會跟臺北市衛生局會跟他提醒。好,請部長具體掌握啦,好不好?好。好,謝謝主席,謝謝。\n謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.434 --> 00:27.783\n好,謝謝主席。有請部長。請薛部長。委員好。部長好。部長今天針對主席排的這個專案還有另外在建立一個實案的問題還是要再提醒部長跟部長來討論。\n\n00:29.676 --> 00:39.980\n我先請教部長凱凱安是不是確定符合這個脆弱家庭的服務對象?是那新北市政府中心有訪視外租母家的時候就凱凱的外租母家的時候\n\n00:41.485 --> 00:57.178\n針對被兒童安置到臺北市的凱凱,新北市到底有沒有持續訪視的責任還有義務?理論上應該有,必須要去追,如果說他因為跨峽不方便的話,那應該要透過跟臺北市的聯繫把案子轉給臺北市有規範需要訪視到幾次嗎?\n\n01:02.041 --> 01:29.715\n一個月一次一個月一次那凱凱被安置到臺北市多長時間啊這個新北市社福的社工去那邊幾次訪視幾次有沒有掌握去安置到臺北市去大概有三個月但是那個社福中心這邊並沒有去訪視去安置到臺北市有三個月時間嘛對不對後面對不起啊那個新北市的社福中心從來沒有去訪視過\n\n01:31.109 --> 01:48.821\n從來沒有去恍事到連一次都沒有就對了而且他也沒有通知臺北市說這個是催家的兒童催後家庭兒童他也沒有通知臺北市這個是改改是催後家庭的兒童所以臺北市這邊也沒有辦法接手說一個月去一次\n\n01:49.827 --> 02:06.057\n好,也變成臺北市也因為這樣也沒有去履行他應該我們所訂的相關的一些規範嘛就最少一個月去一次就對了就三個月反正就沒有臺北市跟新北市的相關的市府中心有去做訪視有去看而已\n\n02:06.360 --> 02:31.966\n好沒關係好那這件事情是這樣嘛母親在懷孕期間凱凱的媽媽在懷孕她的時候有聯繫到兒童福利聯盟做相關的諮詢在生產之後又與兒女簽下這個出養的合約所以在懷孕與生產期間兒童到底有沒有去積極的輔導媽媽還是讓她有改變的這樣的心理留下孩子自己照顧\n\n02:33.310 --> 02:41.998\n兒童福利聯盟是因為那個合約還沒有簽妥,這一個媽媽後來就失聯了對,他是在生產後簽的啦\n\n02:44.407 --> 03:08.014\n他那時候有表達這個意願也簽了啦,兒童福利聯盟也接手了但是後來要,因為這個會牽涉到後面的出養的法律程序的問題結果媽媽就連續不到了,後來兒童福利聯盟就把他結案掉小孩子就回到他們的原生家庭由外祖母去找這個保母來照顧\n\n03:09.834 --> 03:31.004\n這中間的話新北市的社福中心的話就積極的跟這個外祖母去聯繫希望改定監護人因為媽媽已經不見了所以希望說外祖母來做監護人那外祖母如果同意當監護人的時候他就可以再重啟所謂的出養的一個程序這個\n\n03:36.567 --> 03:48.138\n外祖母已經成為監護人這樣的一個資格之後那這個出養程序他就可以再啟動但是外祖母那一天我們討論嘛我是這樣來比對嘛\n\n03:52.302 --> 03:55.824\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就«出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告》\n\n04:15.713 --> 04:41.115\n為什麼就那天部長打呼我的嗎?有查一口清嗎?去找臺北市那個保姆?從錢的角度來看的話,的確是有這樣的差距啦但是是不是他就是主要的原因,這個我們並沒有說很清楚不過從兒童聯盟他們的報告裡面有提到過當時在換手,也就是從第三個保姆到第四個保姆\n\n04:42.755 --> 05:07.125\n這一個過程當中他有跟新北市的社福中心有討論過但是新北市的社福中心的報告裡面都沒有提到這件事情所以到底有沒有討論並不清楚理論上來講的話如果要這一個原來的這一個外祖母所聘用的這一個保母已經在照顧的時候\n\n05:08.174 --> 05:33.842\n要轉手到另外一個保母的話應該是要做非常謹慎的評估因為他已經照顧一年了那後來新北市給我們的報告裡面提到說未來的改進措施的時候也在建議說這個保母要就是說這個照顧者跟這個小孩子應該要有更好的一個關係醫護關係啊這個就互相矛盾了對\n\n05:34.902 --> 05:58.588\n真實的案件你說這個兒童福利聯盟對這件事情的說明是說因為這個原來的這個周姓保姆的話跟小孩子有太多的界限不分明但是新北市的報告裡面又說要建立依附關係這互相的矛盾啊\n\n05:59.088 --> 06:18.811\n所以我很認真在聽你的敘述啊我聽矛盾的事情竟然還要聽這麼久我也變成矛盾了所以最後的話我們為什麼在我們今天的檢討報告裡面對新北市的我們這一點就提出質疑啊到底你是要怎樣?是要讓他有依附關係?\n\n06:20.012 --> 06:45.277\n是對小孩子比較好還是說不要有太甚的醫護關係所以讓他出養是比較不會造成一種阻礙所以部長這個你們要慎重非常嚴謹的去徹查吧新北市到底是怎樣去評估這樣的一個脆弱家庭沒有資料對沒有資料嘛這問題就非常嚴重了嘛這是一條生命\n\n06:48.735 --> 06:57.218\n我再來繼續請教部長這是新北市的這個部長一定要非常的嚴謹去徹查要把這個真相公諸於世\n\n06:58.974 --> 07:26.290\n臺北市有送到四一會的一個專案報告中有提到這個流行保姆在一百年的七月考取保姆人員技術證的資格在這個資料可以部長參閱了並於一百一十一年檢護三個月內警察請示紀錄證明、體檢報告等向社會局提出登記證的申請並告知申請保姆是為了並告知喔並告知來申請保姆是為了符合兒母合作保姆資格\n\n07:27.725 --> 07:48.077\n特別講到這句話紅線的部分然後臺北市的報告說本市居家托育服務中心到流女的托育地也進行四項的環境安全檢核所以也在111年的11月10號荷花居家市的托育服務證書這個流程沒問題對不對但是\n\n07:51.579 --> 08:12.522\n但是我們在此之前在委員會還有看到相關的一些資料我們都會以為說兒童福利聯盟找上這名有合格執照的流行保姆好像兒童主動去找他的但其實好像不然我看這個樣子好像是這個保姆在取得服務資格前應該就已經跟兒童福利聯盟有某種程度上的連結\n\n08:15.218 --> 08:30.363\n這實際上的原因我們是不清楚就是說他去申請保姆的資格是只有for這個兒童福利聯盟的合作還是還有其他原因因為事實上他總共收了三個小孩\n\n08:31.744 --> 08:53.926\n那其中有一個是這個不是這一種安置的是等於是一般的嘛所以看起來也不完全是為了只是要照顧兒童福利聯盟所轉介過來的但是他還沒有取得這個托育服務證書之前他去申請他又特別講到就是要符合兒童合作保母的資格\n\n08:55.627 --> 09:20.425\n但是這應該只是原因之一啦因為事實上他收的不完全都是兒童我想不論兒童的孩子或是任何一個機構的孩子本身會轉介到機構中這樣的一個照顧就會有層次上的不一樣嘛應該是這樣子嘛也就是說這樣的孩子他在原生家庭就已經出了問題嘛所以照顧上就不是一般的保母可以去照顧嘛所以\n\n09:22.304 --> 09:48.545\n你看那個媒體報導齁,寫說尋問牛女的動機,這個保母動機他還理直氣壯地回說別人的小孩的父母親都會好好巴結保母希望保母能夠好好照顧小孩,這部長應該有看到吧但是這個小孩沒有爸爸媽媽在,沒有人來巴結他所以他一看到小孩就想揍他他一直為了錢在口中,要不是為了孫中山他根本不想照顧他\n\n09:51.377 --> 10:15.347\n這就應該是已經是屬於社會人格偏差的這是一個脆弱家庭的小朋友然後又有父親也不曉得去向然後母親也通緝中這個小朋友遇到這個狀況已經讓人家很心疼了怎麼還會遇到真的伯母有這樣的心態\n\n10:17.723 --> 10:37.055\n這個根本沒有做好這個兒童機構聘用保姆的一個最少的一個基本的條件嗎?對啦,不過像這種反社會人格的,老實講的話,你平常你還是看不出來,因為他不會寫在這裡說,我...不是啊,但是他講什麼,裡面也出問題\n\n10:39.679 --> 11:03.674\n應該是沒有啦應該是沒有?你們是揣測還是調查?沒有沒有,你的應該沒有講清楚,是沒有還是應該沒有?這四個是有落差?我們沒有接到這一類的通報,三個有一個是很快就已經出養,另外一個是社區的這一個部分,那一個的小孩子應該是沒有看到有通報,所以主要是凱凱這一個\n\n11:06.479 --> 11:18.226\n所以我們兒務機構在找保姆應該有一定程度的規範嘛對不對你衛務部還有頒布一個叫慈祥縣市運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則嘛\n\n11:19.562 --> 11:41.539\n這都是你們當時的規範嘛這處理的原則第三點就提到主管機關得自行或委託相關專業機構、團體辦理下列事項第一,建立至少並建立並至少每六個月盤點適合照顧安置個案之拘托人員名單這個有做嗎?現實有做,台北市沒有對,應該是沒有,他們有做嗎?台北市沒有,因為他們認為是養家庭\n\n11:46.710 --> 12:02.110\n這個部分臺北市他們認為他們現在的安置資源已經足夠了包括機構包括寄養家庭所以他們目前就沒有這份的名單沒有去建立這樣的名單不是我們不是有個處理原則是啊所以它是原則\n\n12:03.975 --> 12:23.994\n對,就是如果他要運用安置資源要運用到保姆的話那我們要請他要依這個原則來辦理那臺北市覺得他們資源夠了沒有要用到保姆所以他們就沒有所以今天資源夠還發生這樣的事情這叫資源夠了這些機構小朋友家庭背景上\n\n12:25.115 --> 12:49.113\n他本身就是有些問題嘛在照顧上就是要比照顧一般小朋友要更專業嘛對不對所以你們第三點又提到喔主管機關要提供這個居托人員照顧家外安置兒童的相關專業的訓練嘛第一點也規定經主管機關交付安置個案之居托人員與首次照顧安置個案前接受職前訓練課程建立至少要6小時對嗎?他這個有嗎?\n\n12:56.136 --> 13:13.921\n因為現在兒童福利聯盟用的這個保姆他並不是在這個原則下所建立的保姆名單那為什麼沒有這個名單因為臺北市覺得不需要去建立他的安置資源已經夠了所以目前這個這個\n\n13:16.341 --> 13:37.772\n有出這個事件的這個保姆他其實是不在這個原則下有接受訓練過的保姆你看我該怎麼再問你們我覺得這樣講好像很奇怪他的資源足夠了所以他就不需要來遵守這樣的原則所以導致這樣的一個小朋友就出了這樣的問題\n\n13:39.454 --> 14:05.102\n因為這個是新北然後出養那他是請兒童那兒童他就自己去找保姆對所以就這個保姆就沒有接受過這個訓練的那他也沒有去跟臺北市說有沒有比較好的一個保姆他也沒有去做這樣一個詢問不是啊次長你這樣保姆好像說新北市他去臺北市\n\n14:05.543 --> 14:23.703\n他覺得他支援夠了所以他就不需要遵守這個原則你的邏輯是這樣喔你打呼我這樣是很奇怪一件事情喔這個原則到底該不該遵守應該不能講說他有足夠支援或沒有支援的情況之下這個原則就是必須要遵守應該是這樣才對嘛\n\n14:27.260 --> 14:44.296\n我想這個是委託安置啦那也就是說臺北市認為他可能說他的機構是夠的他的寄養價值是夠的所以他不需要再用保母來做這一種安置所以他基本上就沒有提供\n\n14:45.397 --> 15:08.107\n現有的保姆系統去做接受這種政府委託安置的案例,他就沒有去做這個訓練所以部長跟市長打互吼就是有這樣的一個盲點嗎?對,但是事實上像今天這個案例是新北市這邊介紹過來的,跑到臺北市來的\n\n15:09.447 --> 15:30.362\n阿臺北市就沒有用這種居家托育的系統來做安置嘛所以譬如說以兒童福利聯盟就自己找一般的保母來做這個安置問題就在這個地方阿這些一般的保母並沒有去接受這種特殊的訓練\n\n15:32.148 --> 15:39.278\n你這樣不小心又發生兩個盲點一個是公務機關一個是這個兒童機構通通一直存在這種盲點\n\n15:40.684 --> 15:55.272\n這個盲點到底要怎麼解決?今天如果沒有這樣的盲點,可能就沒有這件事情嗎?因為你們第五點又寫這樣,經由主管機關交付安置個案追劇動員,與首次照顧安置個案前接受諮詢訓練要6個小時,對不對?然後安置個案的類型,創傷經驗及問題輔導,這個要比一般保姆的執訓還要專業課程\n\n16:04.357 --> 16:20.503\n所以我們未來等於說未來要做的事情就要補好這一塊第一個如果要接受這種政府委託的家外安置的case的時候你應該要受到比較強的一個教育訓練那第二個這一個\n\n16:21.912 --> 16:44.441\n如果有跨峽的時候一定要把這個訊息送過去因為如果我們假設嘛如果今天新北市有把這個他屬於翠家所以他需要另外的一個安置這個訊息有給臺北市臺北市說我沒有保姆來做這件事情因為我不需要但是我有寄養家庭那這個小孩子就會跑到寄養家庭去了\n\n16:45.061 --> 17:08.347\n根本就不會發生今天的事情所以他前置認定他支援足夠後置他該做的動作也沒有去做了簡單講就這樣嘛我請部長就好好反正把它查得清清楚楚啦好不好然後該補的該把這個盲點把它去除掉也是要去除掉了吧我最後一個問題主席已經站起來了因為時間關係齁我還針對這個實案的問題我那天\n\n17:12.714 --> 17:31.623\n我實在我在講的話可能大家就把它聽進去了而且我最討厭我有提醒的事情明明我們可以去做一些緩緩然後不夠積極這樣就不好因為我現在不是在講食安署沒有做這個事情我是說食安的這種東西會拖啦\n\n17:32.603 --> 17:38.967\n今天這個事情,我不曉得衛福部昨天有開啦,就針對這個保齡茶室,表示可能是這個米酵菌酸嘛對不對,應該造成這次阻音嘛,然後我們實驗室的檢驗可能要兩週才可以確定嘛,是不是可以加快一點?\n\n18:00.424 --> 18:28.096\n因為這個這麼廣泛的一個這個拿到了我們就趕快來進行開始做檢驗但是因為目前其他的物質引起來的中毒的可能性也沒有排除所以其他物質包括農藥等等這一些我們就先做了好我再要提醒一點如果根據食安法的這個食安條規定經專管公告類別及規模支持品業者應該投保產品的責任保險\n\n18:30.438 --> 18:58.174\n這我們會去開罰啦,這一個部分的話我們會請...不是不是,有投保嗎?他有投保,但是保險到期他沒有續保那怎麼辦?而且你現在續保他,我的訊息他是3月底就要結束營業,不是他要照啊?但是他現在就要,所以馬上就是要去做...他是去年10月就到期了嗎?對去年10月喔?對那本年已經進了第一季喔,他第一季就要結束營業喔?對\n\n19:00.112 --> 19:16.452\n你那麼可以依據47條去處3萬元以上、3百萬元以下罰款嗎?對不對?那情節中大者還可以歇業嗎?停業嗎?停業已經對他沒有意義了對嘛,已經沒有意義了所以現在就是要去罰款我覺得現在連罰款都可能也罰不到了\n\n19:17.475 --> 19:44.684\n有沒有啟動防拖的機制?因為你先要做處分出去的話,那如果沒有什麼太大問題,我們直接就做那個行政執行嘛。對。就進入強制執行。是不是該啟動那個防拖的機制?對。對啊,不然這些已經因為這樣過往的,還有在醫院的。我們會跟臺北市衛生局會跟他提醒。好,請部長具體掌握啦,好不好?好。好,謝謝主席,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.434,"end":27.783,"text":"好,謝謝主席。有請部長。請薛部長。委員好。部長好。部長今天針對主席排的這個專案還有另外在建立一個實案的問題還是要再提醒部長跟部長來討論。"},{"start":29.676,"end":39.98,"text":"我先請教部長凱凱安是不是確定符合這個脆弱家庭的服務對象?是那新北市政府中心有訪視外租母家的時候就凱凱的外租母家的時候"},{"start":41.485,"end":57.178,"text":"針對被兒童安置到臺北市的凱凱,新北市到底有沒有持續訪視的責任還有義務?理論上應該有,必須要去追,如果說他因為跨峽不方便的話,那應該要透過跟臺北市的聯繫把案子轉給臺北市有規範需要訪視到幾次嗎?"},{"start":62.041,"end":89.715,"text":"一個月一次一個月一次那凱凱被安置到臺北市多長時間啊這個新北市社福的社工去那邊幾次訪視幾次有沒有掌握去安置到臺北市去大概有三個月但是那個社福中心這邊並沒有去訪視去安置到臺北市有三個月時間嘛對不對後面對不起啊那個新北市的社福中心從來沒有去訪視過"},{"start":91.109,"end":108.821,"text":"從來沒有去恍事到連一次都沒有就對了而且他也沒有通知臺北市說這個是催家的兒童催後家庭兒童他也沒有通知臺北市這個是改改是催後家庭的兒童所以臺北市這邊也沒有辦法接手說一個月去一次"},{"start":109.827,"end":126.057,"text":"好,也變成臺北市也因為這樣也沒有去履行他應該我們所訂的相關的一些規範嘛就最少一個月去一次就對了就三個月反正就沒有臺北市跟新北市的相關的市府中心有去做訪視有去看而已"},{"start":126.36,"end":151.966,"text":"好沒關係好那這件事情是這樣嘛母親在懷孕期間凱凱的媽媽在懷孕她的時候有聯繫到兒童福利聯盟做相關的諮詢在生產之後又與兒女簽下這個出養的合約所以在懷孕與生產期間兒童到底有沒有去積極的輔導媽媽還是讓她有改變的這樣的心理留下孩子自己照顧"},{"start":153.31,"end":161.998,"text":"兒童福利聯盟是因為那個合約還沒有簽妥,這一個媽媽後來就失聯了對,他是在生產後簽的啦"},{"start":164.407,"end":188.014,"text":"他那時候有表達這個意願也簽了啦,兒童福利聯盟也接手了但是後來要,因為這個會牽涉到後面的出養的法律程序的問題結果媽媽就連續不到了,後來兒童福利聯盟就把他結案掉小孩子就回到他們的原生家庭由外祖母去找這個保母來照顧"},{"start":189.834,"end":211.004,"text":"這中間的話新北市的社福中心的話就積極的跟這個外祖母去聯繫希望改定監護人因為媽媽已經不見了所以希望說外祖母來做監護人那外祖母如果同意當監護人的時候他就可以再重啟所謂的出養的一個程序這個"},{"start":216.567,"end":228.138,"text":"外祖母已經成為監護人這樣的一個資格之後那這個出養程序他就可以再啟動但是外祖母那一天我們討論嘛我是這樣來比對嘛"},{"start":232.302,"end":235.824,"text":"二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就 «出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告》"},{"start":255.713,"end":281.115,"text":"為什麼就那天部長打呼我的嗎?有查一口清嗎?去找臺北市那個保姆?從錢的角度來看的話,的確是有這樣的差距啦但是是不是他就是主要的原因,這個我們並沒有說很清楚不過從兒童聯盟他們的報告裡面有提到過當時在換手,也就是從第三個保姆到第四個保姆"},{"start":282.755,"end":307.125,"text":"這一個過程當中他有跟新北市的社福中心有討論過但是新北市的社福中心的報告裡面都沒有提到這件事情所以到底有沒有討論並不清楚理論上來講的話如果要這一個原來的這一個外祖母所聘用的這一個保母已經在照顧的時候"},{"start":308.174,"end":333.842,"text":"要轉手到另外一個保母的話應該是要做非常謹慎的評估因為他已經照顧一年了那後來新北市給我們的報告裡面提到說未來的改進措施的時候也在建議說這個保母要就是說這個照顧者跟這個小孩子應該要有更好的一個關係醫護關係啊這個就互相矛盾了對"},{"start":334.902,"end":358.588,"text":"真實的案件你說這個兒童福利聯盟對這件事情的說明是說因為這個原來的這個周姓保姆的話跟小孩子有太多的界限不分明但是新北市的報告裡面又說要建立依附關係這互相的矛盾啊"},{"start":359.088,"end":378.811,"text":"所以我很認真在聽你的敘述啊我聽矛盾的事情竟然還要聽這麼久我也變成矛盾了所以最後的話我們為什麼在我們今天的檢討報告裡面對新北市的我們這一點就提出質疑啊到底你是要怎樣?是要讓他有依附關係?"},{"start":380.012,"end":405.277,"text":"是對小孩子比較好還是說不要有太甚的醫護關係所以讓他出養是比較不會造成一種阻礙所以部長這個你們要慎重非常嚴謹的去徹查吧新北市到底是怎樣去評估這樣的一個脆弱家庭沒有資料對沒有資料嘛這問題就非常嚴重了嘛這是一條生命"},{"start":408.735,"end":417.218,"text":"我再來繼續請教部長這是新北市的這個部長一定要非常的嚴謹去徹查要把這個真相公諸於世"},{"start":418.974,"end":446.29,"text":"臺北市有送到四一會的一個專案報告中有提到這個流行保姆在一百年的七月考取保姆人員技術證的資格在這個資料可以部長參閱了並於一百一十一年檢護三個月內警察請示紀錄證明、體檢報告等向社會局提出登記證的申請並告知申請保姆是為了並告知喔並告知來申請保姆是為了符合兒母合作保姆資格"},{"start":447.725,"end":468.077,"text":"特別講到這句話紅線的部分然後臺北市的報告說本市居家托育服務中心到流女的托育地也進行四項的環境安全檢核所以也在111年的11月10號荷花居家市的托育服務證書這個流程沒問題對不對但是"},{"start":471.579,"end":492.522,"text":"但是我們在此之前在委員會還有看到相關的一些資料我們都會以為說兒童福利聯盟找上這名有合格執照的流行保姆好像兒童主動去找他的但其實好像不然我看這個樣子好像是這個保姆在取得服務資格前應該就已經跟兒童福利聯盟有某種程度上的連結"},{"start":495.218,"end":510.363,"text":"這實際上的原因我們是不清楚就是說他去申請保姆的資格是只有for這個兒童福利聯盟的合作還是還有其他原因因為事實上他總共收了三個小孩"},{"start":511.744,"end":533.926,"text":"那其中有一個是這個不是這一種安置的是等於是一般的嘛所以看起來也不完全是為了只是要照顧兒童福利聯盟所轉介過來的但是他還沒有取得這個托育服務證書之前他去申請他又特別講到就是要符合兒童合作保母的資格"},{"start":535.627,"end":560.425,"text":"但是這應該只是原因之一啦因為事實上他收的不完全都是兒童我想不論兒童的孩子或是任何一個機構的孩子本身會轉介到機構中這樣的一個照顧就會有層次上的不一樣嘛應該是這樣子嘛也就是說這樣的孩子他在原生家庭就已經出了問題嘛所以照顧上就不是一般的保母可以去照顧嘛所以"},{"start":562.304,"end":588.545,"text":"你看那個媒體報導齁,寫說尋問牛女的動機,這個保母動機他還理直氣壯地回說別人的小孩的父母親都會好好巴結保母希望保母能夠好好照顧小孩,這部長應該有看到吧但是這個小孩沒有爸爸媽媽在,沒有人來巴結他所以他一看到小孩就想揍他他一直為了錢在口中,要不是為了孫中山他根本不想照顧他"},{"start":591.377,"end":615.347,"text":"這就應該是已經是屬於社會人格偏差的這是一個脆弱家庭的小朋友然後又有父親也不曉得去向然後母親也通緝中這個小朋友遇到這個狀況已經讓人家很心疼了怎麼還會遇到真的伯母有這樣的心態"},{"start":617.723,"end":637.055,"text":"這個根本沒有做好這個兒童機構聘用保姆的一個最少的一個基本的條件嗎?對啦,不過像這種反社會人格的,老實講的話,你平常你還是看不出來,因為他不會寫在這裡說,我...不是啊,但是他講什麼,裡面也出問題"},{"start":639.679,"end":663.674,"text":"應該是沒有啦應該是沒有?你們是揣測還是調查?沒有沒有,你的應該沒有講清楚,是沒有還是應該沒有?這四個是有落差?我們沒有接到這一類的通報,三個有一個是很快就已經出養,另外一個是社區的這一個部分,那一個的小孩子應該是沒有看到有通報,所以主要是凱凱這一個"},{"start":666.479,"end":678.226,"text":"所以我們兒務機構在找保姆應該有一定程度的規範嘛對不對你衛務部還有頒布一個叫慈祥縣市運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則嘛"},{"start":679.562,"end":701.539,"text":"這都是你們當時的規範嘛這處理的原則第三點就提到主管機關得自行或委託相關專業機構、團體辦理下列事項第一,建立至少並建立並至少每六個月盤點適合照顧安置個案之拘托人員名單這個有做嗎?現實有做,台北市沒有對,應該是沒有,他們有做嗎?台北市沒有,因為他們認為是養家庭"},{"start":706.71,"end":722.11,"text":"這個部分臺北市他們認為他們現在的安置資源已經足夠了包括機構包括寄養家庭所以他們目前就沒有這份的名單沒有去建立這樣的名單不是我們不是有個處理原則是啊所以它是原則"},{"start":723.975,"end":743.994,"text":"對,就是如果他要運用安置資源要運用到保姆的話那我們要請他要依這個原則來辦理那臺北市覺得他們資源夠了沒有要用到保姆所以他們就沒有所以今天資源夠還發生這樣的事情這叫資源夠了這些機構小朋友家庭背景上"},{"start":745.115,"end":769.113,"text":"他本身就是有些問題嘛在照顧上就是要比照顧一般小朋友要更專業嘛對不對所以你們第三點又提到喔主管機關要提供這個居托人員照顧家外安置兒童的相關專業的訓練嘛第一點也規定經主管機關交付安置個案之居托人員與首次照顧安置個案前接受職前訓練課程建立至少要6小時對嗎?他這個有嗎?"},{"start":776.136,"end":793.921,"text":"因為現在兒童福利聯盟用的這個保姆他並不是在這個原則下所建立的保姆名單那為什麼沒有這個名單因為臺北市覺得不需要去建立他的安置資源已經夠了所以目前這個這個"},{"start":796.341,"end":817.772,"text":"有出這個事件的這個保姆他其實是不在這個原則下有接受訓練過的保姆你看我該怎麼再問你們我覺得這樣講好像很奇怪他的資源足夠了所以他就不需要來遵守這樣的原則所以導致這樣的一個小朋友就出了這樣的問題"},{"start":819.454,"end":845.102,"text":"因為這個是新北然後出養那他是請兒童那兒童他就自己去找保姆對所以就這個保姆就沒有接受過這個訓練的那他也沒有去跟臺北市說有沒有比較好的一個保姆他也沒有去做這樣一個詢問不是啊次長你這樣保姆好像說新北市他去臺北市"},{"start":845.543,"end":863.703,"text":"他覺得他支援夠了所以他就不需要遵守這個原則你的邏輯是這樣喔你打呼我這樣是很奇怪一件事情喔這個原則到底該不該遵守應該不能講說他有足夠支援或沒有支援的情況之下這個原則就是必須要遵守應該是這樣才對嘛"},{"start":867.26,"end":884.296,"text":"我想這個是委託安置啦那也就是說臺北市認為他可能說他的機構是夠的他的寄養價值是夠的所以他不需要再用保母來做這一種安置所以他基本上就沒有提供"},{"start":885.397,"end":908.107,"text":"現有的保姆系統去做接受這種政府委託安置的案例,他就沒有去做這個訓練所以部長跟市長打互吼就是有這樣的一個盲點嗎?對,但是事實上像今天這個案例是新北市這邊介紹過來的,跑到臺北市來的"},{"start":909.447,"end":930.362,"text":"阿臺北市就沒有用這種居家托育的系統來做安置嘛所以譬如說以兒童福利聯盟就自己找一般的保母來做這個安置問題就在這個地方阿這些一般的保母並沒有去接受這種特殊的訓練"},{"start":932.148,"end":939.278,"text":"你這樣不小心又發生兩個盲點一個是公務機關一個是這個兒童機構通通一直存在這種盲點"},{"start":940.684,"end":955.272,"text":"這個盲點到底要怎麼解決?今天如果沒有這樣的盲點,可能就沒有這件事情嗎?因為你們第五點又寫這樣,經由主管機關交付安置個案追劇動員,與首次照顧安置個案前接受諮詢訓練要6個小時,對不對?然後安置個案的類型,創傷經驗及問題輔導,這個要比一般保姆的執訓還要專業課程"},{"start":964.357,"end":980.503,"text":"所以我們未來等於說未來要做的事情就要補好這一塊第一個如果要接受這種政府委託的家外安置的case的時候你應該要受到比較強的一個教育訓練那第二個這一個"},{"start":981.912,"end":1004.441,"text":"如果有跨峽的時候一定要把這個訊息送過去因為如果我們假設嘛如果今天新北市有把這個他屬於翠家所以他需要另外的一個安置這個訊息有給臺北市臺北市說我沒有保姆來做這件事情因為我不需要但是我有寄養家庭那這個小孩子就會跑到寄養家庭去了"},{"start":1005.061,"end":1028.347,"text":"根本就不會發生今天的事情所以他前置認定他支援足夠後置他該做的動作也沒有去做了簡單講就這樣嘛我請部長就好好反正把它查得清清楚楚啦好不好然後該補的該把這個盲點把它去除掉也是要去除掉了吧我最後一個問題主席已經站起來了因為時間關係齁我還針對這個實案的問題我那天"},{"start":1032.714,"end":1051.623,"text":"我實在我在講的話可能大家就把它聽進去了而且我最討厭我有提醒的事情明明我們可以去做一些緩緩然後不夠積極這樣就不好因為我現在不是在講食安署沒有做這個事情我是說食安的這種東西會拖啦"},{"start":1052.603,"end":1058.967,"text":"今天這個事情,我不曉得衛福部昨天有開啦,就針對這個保齡茶室,表示可能是這個米酵菌酸嘛對不對,應該造成這次阻音嘛,然後我們實驗室的檢驗可能要兩週才可以確定嘛,是不是可以加快一點?"},{"start":1080.424,"end":1108.096,"text":"因為這個這麼廣泛的一個這個拿到了我們就趕快來進行開始做檢驗但是因為目前其他的物質引起來的中毒的可能性也沒有排除所以其他物質包括農藥等等這一些我們就先做了好我再要提醒一點如果根據食安法的這個食安條規定經專管公告類別及規模支持品業者應該投保產品的責任保險"},{"start":1110.438,"end":1138.174,"text":"這我們會去開罰啦,這一個部分的話我們會請...不是不是,有投保嗎?他有投保,但是保險到期他沒有續保那怎麼辦?而且你現在續保他,我的訊息他是3月底就要結束營業,不是他要照啊?但是他現在就要,所以馬上就是要去做...他是去年10月就到期了嗎?對去年10月喔?對那本年已經進了第一季喔,他第一季就要結束營業喔?對"},{"start":1140.112,"end":1156.452,"text":"你那麼可以依據47條去處3萬元以上、3百萬元以下罰款嗎?對不對?那情節中大者還可以歇業嗎?停業嗎?停業已經對他沒有意義了對嘛,已經沒有意義了所以現在就是要去罰款我覺得現在連罰款都可能也罰不到了"},{"start":1157.475,"end":1184.684,"text":"有沒有啟動防拖的機制?因為你先要做處分出去的話,那如果沒有什麼太大問題,我們直接就做那個行政執行嘛。對。就進入強制執行。是不是該啟動那個防拖的機制?對。對啊,不然這些已經因為這樣過往的,還有在醫院的。我們會跟臺北市衛生局會跟他提醒。好,請部長具體掌握啦,好不好?好。好,謝謝主席,謝謝。"},{"start":1186.852,"end":1187.585,"text":"謝謝"}]}}}}