{"id":150697,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150697","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0141d3f813821f8ac91bc002822e084d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6ca595a3337a5a3375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:36:42 - 09:50:46","影片長度":"00:14:04","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":844,"end_time":"2024-04-01T09:50:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T09:36:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":172,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時36分）謝謝主席。有請邱部長，還有國科會李處長，謝謝。"],["主席：請邱部長還有國科會處長。"],["邱部長國正：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。今天最主要是問國防自主，不過因為剛剛黃仁委員問到營區的問題，所以我突然想到一件事情，就是現在軍方對於公務電腦等等，對於數位部所稱的資通危害產品應該是不能使用。我想問的是，一般在入營的時候，或者一般的官兵，他們私人的手機當然是不能帶進去，他們私人的手機在還沒帶進去之前，可能是放在一個固定的地方，那他們私人的手機，現在針對這些資安危害的產品，你們有辦法禁止他們使用還是沒有辦法？"],["邱部長國正：有辦法，因為我們現在有時候召開會議，他就算有手機，一定是放在外面的置物櫃裡面，這是第一個。第二個，如果我們發覺他有的話，我們會嚴懲，有很多管道，包含各級的分層負責，在這一方面管控是絕對嚴格的，但有時候他這個弄完出去，我不推責任嘛，所以剛才講的這個問題我們也要追查。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為剛剛才突然想到這件事情，這是事前預防的部分，所以我覺得在這方面可能還要再加強。","接下來，我想要問，這一次你們在這個國防自主的報告裡面有提到，要整合國科會、經濟部等等各部會的協作，譬如以國造衛星來講，中科院可能因為有飛彈相關的技術，所以它可以做一些導引，又或者說像國科會這邊有太空中心、衛星等等之類的，工研院應該也會有一些AI相關的可以整合，所以聽起來它是一個跨領域，目前我們的人才看起來也是足夠的，然後也在各部會。我這邊唯一想問的問題是，因為在企業界我們都知道，在跨部會合作的時候，譬如說每一個人本來都是待在自己的部門，很容易會有本位主義，所以想問，不是說資深的人，而是一些專業的人才，目前不管是在國科會這邊還是在國防部這邊，有沒有規劃，譬如說讓他們在不同的部會待一陣子之後再回來？有沒有這樣的一些計畫？"],["邱部長國正：據目前我所瞭解的，協調合作是必要的，至於未來長期對於人事的交流，目前我們還沒有這樣做，我們只跟國防部有關的單位有這種交流，一般其他部會到目前是沒有，但通力合作是一直在進行的。我跟委員舉個例子，當初全民防衛動員署成立的原因在哪裡？就是裡面有各部會的人，這樣可以做到假如每次來都在同一個辦公室共同辦公，這樣的話速度會變快，未來如果人員要交流的話，那可能就不光是國防部或某個部門意願的問題，所以可能整個人事方面都會要通盤檢討，但我們也期望如此，每個部會裡面都有某些專業人員，目前的克服方法就是多做協調，已經看到一些成果了。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，感謝，就是現在有共同辦公的部分，這應該是滿重要的，那接下來希望會有更多的一些交流，是因為有時候有一些部門他們可能對國防部不夠瞭解。","接下來我想要問的就是紅隼，我們現在有火箭彈，這個算是非常重要的一個研發，成本又不會太高，然後又可以廣發到現在後備旅或者基層的士兵。因為以現在國防部的這個角度來看，我們要有紅隼的火箭彈，基本上應該就是要實兵、實彈然後實地，這樣才可以發揮功效。所以我想個別問一下，我想先問一下實兵的部分，因為像後備旅的基幹，按照之前的新聞報導，後備旅的基幹招募上好像是有點比較困難，除了招募困難之外，如果說現在要廣泛的能夠實兵，讓這些人都可以訓練，是所有人都可以訓練，還是說特定階層的訓練，然後訓練的時程大概是多久，現在有沒有這方面的計畫？"],["邱部長國正：我初步跟委員報告，通常的訓練、哪一種裝備，要看他未來要擔任的職務來訓練的，這個大概沒有辦法全部普遍，當然我們期望能夠有，就跟步槍一樣，每個不管你是什麼職務，一定有射擊過。但紅隼火箭彈的話，因為它針對的目標不同，不見得每個人都人手一具，但我們不能講因此就沒有訓練，為什麼？因為當一旦要用到了，可能旁邊有什麼狀況，他拿到了，讓任何人都能夠操作，那訓練頻次或者科目、時數，一定會有所調整，這就是初步跟委員做說明。","另外，剛剛問到關於哪些後備能夠用，後備也在用，但它有沒有實彈，這我要確定一下，它也會練這個操作，操作原因就剛剛跟委員報告，將來要用哪個不知道，雖然你的專業是火箭彈兵，但是可能旁邊一有什麼狀況，旁邊的兵也要幫助他，或者繼續他的任務的話，拿起來也能夠用，就所謂的一專多能啦！部隊裡面一專多能的著眼就在這個地方。"],["沈委員伯洋：感謝，現在實兵的部分，當初這個武器的研發，就是希望能夠比較廣泛的使用嘛！因為畢竟中科院做出來可以成本弄得比較低，所以想知道說他們現在到底有多少人是能夠使用，然後以及有沒有這方面的規劃而已。","接下來我想問第二個就是實彈的部分，我看相關的報導說是在2026年以前要做交付，因為現在會有兩種，一種是它存放，就是它準備，就是戰備用的；有一些它是訓練用的。現在這個比例上來講，已經有開始在抓這個相關的比例，然後是要存放在哪裡，以及哪些是要拿來訓練用的，有沒有這方面的規劃？"],["邱部長國正：是這樣，通常一個戰備存量是基本首要考慮的，有基本存量，不能講說存滿了再做訓練，所以它一定有個比例，但比例多寡，我要確定一下，各單位他們有定依據，但絕對是以戰備為考量，戰備存量當中在儲存的時候，可能少部分要拿來做訓練，加上這個配比多寡，看它彈種研發狀況、產量狀況來做確定。"],["沈委員伯洋：我問這個問題很大的一個原因，是因為假設我們要抓一個訓練的數量，我們要希望能夠實地嘛！那實地，現在因為一些火砲訓練場滿常被抗議的，國軍又常講，就是我在這邊寫的「仗在哪裡打，部隊就在哪裡訓」嘛！所以現在彈藥儲存、相關的安全措施，以及如果我們是要儲存在一個有一定距離的地方，這個目前的規劃是如何？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我們目前遇到很現實的問題，也是很困難的問題，我們目前克服的方法是怎麼樣呢？跟一般民間多協調溝通，要用的話、產生噪音等等，先告知，然後協調。第二個，就我們自己的選擇地點跟安排的時間，我們要做拿捏，或許一天當中，本來只有一個單位去，今天也打，那明天另外一個單位又打，讓人家覺得說頻次那麼高，這樣不妥，而且不見得有那麼多場地可用，所以我們調配以後，有什麼好處呢？一天當中有很多單位在，但我們把這梯次間隔分開，它在打當中，後面就已經在訓，也不會浪費時間，也不會浪費我們場地運用的頻段數，也儘量不造成民間的干擾，所以目前我們做法都如此。","至於儲存方面的話，委員也很瞭解，譬如附近只要一存彈藥，居民就會叫，我們也要跟他做說明，儲存的方向不管是集中儲存、各種彈種的庫，或者它單位裡要用的，以它為主，但不見得在這個營區在哪個地點來做放置，絕對要考量，將來如果運用起來，不會產生不方便。舉個簡單例子，很多不管是飛彈等等，不見得在營區，這個單位是用飛彈的單位，但這個彈不見得在裡面，但這是它的任務，未來一有狀況，它可能就要出去了，出去地點的那個附近，我們這樣來規劃安排。"],["沈委員伯洋：感謝，有一些細節我們不一定要在國會殿堂裡面講，但是就是希望儲存相關的一些事情，還有訓練上的準備，我們之後可以在辦公室再來討論這件事情，我覺得這滿重要，因為畢竟真的就是需要實兵、實彈跟實地的訓練。","接下來我想問一下中科院，因為我最近一直在看中科院相關的一些報告，我想先問一個問題，第一個是監察院之前在講說打破進用計畫，訂定高齡人員不任主管職的原則。因為在111跟112年我們可以看到這邊圈起來的100跟92嘛！說真的，這個我是覺得滿重創中科院的形象，因為這是112年2月的時候，大概也過了一年，想問一下目前改進的措施方向。"],["張院長忠誠：委員好，我是中科院院長。感謝監察院的指導，報告委員，我們高齡回聘的任用，完全是依據中高齡就業促進法的法規來做，當然到目前為止，因為監察院認為這些高齡回聘不適合當主管，所以經過監察院指導之後，高齡回聘人員就回歸專業，主管就不再任用了。到目前為止，因為我的火炸藥是非常重要的一個工作，為了安全起見，只有一位目前還留在化學所所長，他是高齡回聘，其他的高齡都已經回歸到專業去，不再擔任主管一職，大概是這樣子。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，我比較想知道的是因為這件事情，那時候我看到報告，是覺得滿扯的啦！我們以預防的角度來講，為什麼在這個之前明明規定在那邊，然後卻發生這樣的事情？"],["張院長忠誠：報告委員，因為他擔任領導幹部，最主要是給他權力來做指導，主要是基於這個考量啦！當然如果說你沒有給他一個主官的職位，他沒有辦法對部屬做專業指導。但是監察院這個說法，我們就遵照監察院的作法，因為我們為了要培育後進，它主要認為擔任主管會擋到後進的升遷，並沒有說我的方法不對，所以要回歸專業，不擔任主管，大概是這樣，並沒有說違法，這是因為海空戰力整個提高，大家的產值增加到六倍，所以當時也是因應，為什麼把高齡回聘留下來，就是要藉助他的專業來趕快促進整個任務的執行，大概是這樣，所以之前沒有這個問題，是這兩年發生的事情。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，這一些忠誠的研究人員，因為之前發生的這些事情，可能會想要出走或什麼等等之類的，希望能夠在接下來兩個月，看中科院能不能有這方面一些比較具體的計畫，就是說OK，這個監察院報告出來了，我們的改進措施是什麼，然後我們怎麼讓這些忠誠的研發人員的職涯發展能夠再上來，好嗎？"],["張院長忠誠：是的，委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。","最後一個問題一樣是監察院的報告，還有一點點時間。就是旋轉門的規定，當時大概有36家得標的廠商跟中科院現職的員工是配偶或一等親的，這個件數目前金額是19.6億元，當然說真的，也是一個不合宜的事情，也一樣的問題就是在於說目前這個改進的方向大概是什麼樣子？"],["張院長忠誠：跟委員報告，因為監察院調查大概是兩年前的事情，我們完全做了改進，舉個例子，我們中科院所有人員都要利益迴避，當初訂定是院長、董事長，部分人員並沒有完全訂定。到112年底，我把這個規定重新調整，所有人必須要利益迴避，我們的一級主管、一級副主管，他的二等親及配偶不得參與全院的購案；二級主管的一等親及配偶不得參與該所、該單位的購案，誰要是違反都有明確的規定來處分，這些都大幅度的更正了。"],["沈委員伯洋：不好意思，主席，再給我20秒。","還有一個相關的問題，可能我們之後再來討論，就是如果這些廠商，譬如說本來有親屬關係的，他離開了，那離開了之後，現在會因為他一離開，中科院馬上又回去跟這個廠商再繼續合作嗎？這方面有沒有一些數據？"],["張院長忠誠：有的，我們對於現職人員跟離開的人員，離開3年內不得擔任5年內他親自從事的工作，這是規定。剛才委員講的是屬於利益迴避這部分，中科院的公務人員及院長，還有董事、監事，這個是絕對要合乎法規，但是針對法規沒有規定的人員，我們也採取了他離開的時候也是3年、5年內不能等等，同理，他也不能來標我中科院的購案，所以這方面都有做管制，跟委員做報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，沒問題嘛！接下來還有一些後續的問題，我就用書面再來問。"],["張院長忠誠：謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝院長、謝謝部長。"],["邱部長國正：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：請羅美玲委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":240,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","王定宇","徐巧芯","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林憶君","王鴻薇"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家\n科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132201_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"150697","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150697","tool":"pyannote","id":"150697-pyannote"},"job_id":"VC2zKfdkqTNKDn7P","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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00:01:21,327\n有辦法,因為我們現在有所會議,它就算有所謂,一定放在外交支付櫃裡面,這第一個。第二個,如果我們發覺它有的話,我們會做一個嚴審。所以很多管道,包含各級的分層負責,在這方面管控,是絕對嚴格。但有時候它弄完以後出去,我不推責任,所以剛才講這個問題,我們也要追查。\n\n5\n00:01:24,850 --> 00:01:43,452\n因為這是事前預防的部分所以我覺得可能在這一個方面可能還要再加強因為剛剛才突然想到這件事情那接下來我想要問這一個就是因為這一次我們在講這個國防自主的報告裡面有提到就是要整合國歌會、經濟部等等各部會的一個協作\n\n6\n00:01:44,133 --> 00:01:46,475\n以國造衛星為例,中科院有飛彈相關技術可以做導引,國科會有太空中心、衛星等,工研院也會有AI相關的可以整合。\n\n7\n00:02:00,203 --> 00:02:16,861\n所以聽起來他是一個跨領域應該是一個目前我們的人才看起來也是足夠然後也在各部會但我這邊唯一想問的問題就是因為在企業界我們都知道就在跨部會的合作的時候如果因為譬如說每一個人都本來都是待在自己的部門那很容易會有本位主義啦\n\n8\n00:02:17,441 --> 00:02:31,222\n所以想問說一些不是說資深的而是說一些專業的人才目前有沒有在不管是在國科會這邊還是在國防部這邊有沒有規劃讓他們在譬如說不同的部會待一陣子之後然後再回來有沒有這樣的一些計畫\n\n9\n00:02:32,219 --> 00:02:59,799\n目前我了解講說協調合作是必要的至於未來長期的做一個交流對於人事的一個交流目前我們還沒有想做但我們只跟國防部有關的單位有這種交流的但一般其他部會到目前沒有但通力合作這是一直在進行的我就跟委員舉個例子當初這個全民防衛動員署它成立原因在哪裡就裡面都有各部會的\n\n10\n00:03:00,620 --> 00:03:28,437\n現在可以做到講每次都來做一個叫一個同一個辦公室來共同辦公這樣的話會快那未來如果人員交流的話那可能就不光是國防部或某個部門他們意願的問題這可能跟整個人事方面都會要通盤檢討但我們也期望如此每個部會面都有一個某一些專業人員但目前的克服方法就是多做協調已經看一些成果了\n\n11\n00:03:28,737 --> 00:03:29,137\n沈伯洋議員\n\n12\n00:03:51,100 --> 00:04:15,688\n廣發到現在這個後備旅或基層的這個士兵那因為呢以這個現在國防部的這個角度來看我們要有這一個紅准的火箭彈基本上應該就是要實兵然後實彈然後實地那這樣才可以發揮功效那所以我想個別問一下我想先問一下實兵的部分就是因為現在後備旅的基幹按照之前的新聞報導後備旅的基幹招募上好像是有點比較困難\n\n13\n00:04:16,889 --> 00:04:33,105\n現在除了招募困難之外,那如果說現在要廣泛的能夠實兵,讓這些人都可以訓練,是所有人都可以訓練,還是說特定階層的訓練,然後訓練的時程大概是多久,現在有沒有這方面的計畫?我出國跟委員報告,通常訓練哪種裝備,他要在未來擔任的職務來訓練的。\n\n14\n00:04:38,551 --> 00:05:00,747\n這個大概沒有辦法全部普遍當然我們期望能夠有就跟步槍一樣每一個不管你有什麼職務一定有設計過但紅水火箭彈的話因為它針對的目標不同那是不是每一個人他人手一具不見得但我不能講因此就沒有訓練為什麼因為如果一旦要用到了可能旁邊有什麼狀況他拿到了\n\n15\n00:05:01,267 --> 00:05:16,479\n讓任何人都能夠操作那訓練的這個頻次或者科目時數一定會有所調整這初步跟委員做說明啊另外剛剛有關於問到講說哪些這個後備啊什麼的能夠用\n\n16\n00:05:17,119 --> 00:05:41,314\n後備也在用,但他有沒有實戰,這我要給他確定一下,他也會練操作,操作原因就剛剛跟委員報告,現在哪個用不知道,雖然你的專業是火箭彈兵,但是可能旁邊一有什麼狀況以後,旁邊的兵員幫助他,或者繼續他的任務的話,拿起來也能夠用,就所謂的一專多能,部隊員一專多能的著眼在這個地方。\n\n17\n00:05:42,514 --> 00:05:58,742\n感謝因為現在實兵的部分因為當初這個武器的研發就是希望能夠比較廣泛的使用嘛因為它的成本畢竟中科院做出來可以成本弄得比較低所以想知道說他們現在到底有多少人是能夠使用然後以及有沒有這方面的規劃而已但接下來我想問第二個就是實彈的部分\n\n18\n00:05:59,142 --> 00:06:00,002\n通常一個戰備存量是基本要考慮的\n\n19\n00:06:24,372 --> 00:06:45,812\n有機能存量在同時不能講說存滿了在做訓練所以他一定有個比例但比例多寡我要確定各單位可能他們是有定的依據但決定的是以戰備為考量戰備存量當中在儲存的時候訓練他可能少部分但拿來做訓練加上這個配比多寡看他彈種研發的狀況產量的狀況來做一個確定\n\n20\n00:06:49,415 --> 00:07:13,733\n那我問這個問題很大的一個原因是因為假設我們要抓一個訓練的數量那因為我們要希望能夠實地嘛那實地現在因為一些火炮訓練場蠻常被抗議的那國軍又常講就是我在這邊寫著仗在哪裡打部隊在哪裡訓嘛所以就是說現在就是說彈藥儲存還有以及相關的安全措施還有以及就是說如果我們是要儲存在一個有一定距離的地方這個相關目前的規劃是如何\n\n21\n00:07:14,175 --> 00:07:39,932\n我跟委員報告就是我們目前遇到很現實的問題也是很困難的問題我目前克服的方法是怎麼樣的多協調溝通跟一般民間要用的話產生噪音等等先告知要協調第二個就是我們自己選擇地點跟安排的時間我們要做哪裡或許一天當中本來就一個單位去今天也打明天另外一個單位又打\n\n22\n00:07:40,512 --> 00:08:05,867\n讓人家覺得說評次那麼高,想法不妥,而且場地不見得有那麼多場地可用,所以我們要把它調配以後有什麼好處呢?一天當中有很多單位在,但我們把這個提示間隔分開,它在打當中,後面就已經在訓,也不會浪費這個時間,也不會浪費我們場地的運用的評段數,也盡量不造成民間的一個\n\n23\n00:08:06,527 --> 00:08:06,887\n沈伯洋議員\n\n24\n00:08:25,436 --> 00:08:54,218\n或者它單位裡要用的以它為主但不見得在這個營區在哪個地點來做放置絕對要考量加上如果運用起來不會產生不方便所以也有很多可以舉個簡單例子很多不管是飛彈啊等等不見得在營區這個單位是用飛彈的單位但這個彈不見得在裡面但是未來它的任務一有狀況以後它可能就要出去的那出去地點那個附近我們這樣來規劃安排\n\n25\n00:08:55,900 --> 00:08:56,200\n中科院\n\n26\n00:09:17,266 --> 00:09:31,764\n中科院這一邊因為我最近一直在看中科院相關的一些報告我想先問一個問題就是說第一個是監察院之前在講說這一個說打破這一個禁用計畫訂定高齡人員不認主管職的一個原則\n\n27\n00:09:33,626 --> 00:09:48,336\n現在因為在111跟112年我們可以看到這邊圈起來的192那說真的這個我是覺得蠻重創中科院的一個形象那因為這是112年大概二月的時候大概也過了一年想問一下目前改進的這個措施方向\n\n28\n00:09:49,703 --> 00:10:13,978\n我是中科院院長感謝監察院的指導報告委員我們高齡回聘的任用完全是依據中高年就業促進法的法規來做當然到目前為止因為監察院認為說這些高齡回聘不適合當主管所以說經過監察院指導之後高齡回聘委員回歸於專業主管就\n\n29\n00:10:16,099 --> 00:10:30,089\n目前為止因為我的火炸藥是一個非常重要的一個工作為了安全起見只有一位目前還留在化學所長他的高齡回避其他的高齡都已經回歸了回歸到專業區不再擔任主管一職\n\n30\n00:10:31,704 --> 00:10:31,884\n包委員\n\n31\n00:10:47,130 --> 00:11:13,310\n我們就是他擔任領導幹部最主要是給他的權力來做指導這主要是基於這個考量那其他的當然如果說你沒有給他一個主觀的職位他沒有辦法對部署出來做專業指導但是金財安這樣這個說法我們就遵照金財安的做法因為我們為了要培育後進所以他主要認為單任主管會擋到後進的這個並沒有說我的方法不對因為即使所以我要回歸專業不擔任主管\n\n32\n00:11:15,311 --> 00:11:30,439\n大概是這樣並沒有說違法或者說是因為海工戰力提升的整個提高大家的產值增加到6倍所以當時也是因應為什麼把高齡分別留下來就要進入他專業來趕快促進整個任務的執行所以之前沒有這個問題所以這兩年發生的事情\n\n33\n00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:52,835\n好,那因為這樣一些中層的研究人員當然因為之前發生的這些事情可能會想要出走或什麼等等之類的所以希望能夠在接下來兩個月看中科院能不能有這方面的一些比較具體的計畫就是說OK,我們這個監察院報告出來的我們的改進措施是什麼然後我們怎麼讓這些中層的研發人員的指壓發展能夠再上來,好不好?是的委員謝謝\n\n34\n00:11:54,296 --> 00:12:18,892\n最後一個問題也是監察院的報告還有一點點時間就是說這個旋轉門的規定當時大概有36家得標的廠商跟中科院限職的員工是配偶或一等親的這個件數目前金額是19.6億元那這個當然其實說真的也是一個不合宜的事情那也一樣的問題就在於說目前這個改進的方向大概是什麼樣子\n\n35\n00:12:19,412 --> 00:12:48,812\n國務委員報告當然這是因為大概是階層調查是兩年前的事情那我們完全做了改進舉個例我們中科院所有人員都要立意迴避當時因為地地是院長董事長部分的並沒有完全立定我到112年年底把這個規定重新調整所有人必須要立意迴避我們的一級主管一級副主管不得他的二等星級配偶不得參與全院的勾案\n\n36\n00:12:49,412 --> 00:13:17,882\n那二級主管一等親籍配偶不得參與該所該單位的公關誰要是違反都有明確的規定來處分這些都大幅度的更正了不好意思主席再給我20秒就是說還有一個相關的問題就可能我們之後再來討論就是說那如果這些廠商比如說他本來有這個親屬關係的他離開了那離開了之後我們現在有會因為他一離開我們馬上又跟這個廠商又回去再繼續跟中科院合作\n\n37\n00:13:18,582 --> 00:13:42,397\n這方面有沒有一些數據?有的,這個我們對於現職人員跟離開的人員離開三年內不得待任五年內他親自從事的工作這是規定那真正的是該委員講的是屬於利益迴避這部分我們中科院的公務人員及院長還有董事監事這個是絕對要合乎法規但是\n\n38\n00:13:43,177 --> 00:13:43,297\n謝謝委員謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1251\t3193\t謝謝主席,那有請邱部長還有這個國科會的這個李處長,謝謝請邱部長還有國科會處長\n17239\t38314\t沈委員好部長好那這個因為今天最主要是問國防自主不過因為剛剛黃仁委員問到這一個營區的問題所以我想突然想到一件事情就是在於說就是現在軍方對於這個公務的電腦等等之類的一定對於這個速發部速衛部所稱的這個自通危害產品應該是不能使用\n38974\t58192\t但我想問的就是說一般就是在露營的時候或者說一般的官兵他們的手機私人的手機當然是不能帶進去嘛那他們私人手機在還沒帶進去之前可能是放在一個固定的地方那他們私人手機現在針對這些資安危害的產品是我們有辦法是禁止他們使用還是沒有辦法\n58832\t81327\t有辦法,因為我們現在有所會議,它就算有所謂,一定放在外交支付櫃裡面,這第一個。第二個,如果我們發覺它有的話,我們會做一個嚴審。所以很多管道,包含各級的分層負責,在這方面管控,是絕對嚴格。但有時候它弄完以後出去,我不推責任,所以剛才講這個問題,我們也要追查。\n84850\t103452\t因為這是事前預防的部分所以我覺得可能在這一個方面可能還要再加強因為剛剛才突然想到這件事情那接下來我想要問這一個就是因為這一次我們在講這個國防自主的報告裡面有提到就是要整合國歌會、經濟部等等各部會的一個協作\n104133\t106475\t以國造衛星為例,中科院有飛彈相關技術可以做導引,國科會有太空中心、衛星等,工研院也會有AI相關的可以整合。\n120203\t136861\t所以聽起來他是一個跨領域應該是一個目前我們的人才看起來也是足夠然後也在各部會但我這邊唯一想問的問題就是因為在企業界我們都知道就在跨部會的合作的時候如果 因為譬如說每一個人都本來都是待在自己的部門那很容易會有本位主義啦\n137441\t151222\t所以想問說一些不是說資深的而是說一些專業的人才目前有沒有在不管是在國科會這邊還是在國防部這邊有沒有規劃讓他們在譬如說不同的部會待一陣子之後然後再回來有沒有這樣的一些計畫\n152219\t179799\t目前我了解講說協調合作是必要的至於未來長期的做一個交流對於人事的一個交流目前我們還沒有想做但我們只跟國防部有關的單位有這種交流的但一般其他部會到目前沒有但通力合作這是一直在進行的我就跟委員舉個例子當初這個全民防衛動員署它成立原因在哪裡就裡面都有各部會的\n180620\t208437\t現在可以做到講每次都來做一個叫一個同一個辦公室來共同辦公這樣的話會快那未來如果人員交流的話那可能就不光是國防部或某個部門他們意願的問題這可能跟整個人事方面都會要通盤檢討但我們也期望如此每個部會面都有一個某一些專業人員但目前的克服方法就是多做協調已經看一些成果了\n208737\t209137\t沈伯洋議員\n231100\t255688\t廣發到現在這個後備旅或基層的這個士兵那因為呢以這個現在國防部的這個角度來看我們要有這一個紅准的火箭彈基本上應該就是要實兵然後實彈然後實地那這樣才可以發揮功效那所以我想個別問一下我想先問一下實兵的部分就是因為現在後備旅的基幹按照之前的新聞報導後備旅的基幹招募上好像是有點比較困難\n256889\t273105\t現在除了招募困難之外,那如果說現在要廣泛的能夠實兵,讓這些人都可以訓練,是所有人都可以訓練,還是說特定階層的訓練,然後訓練的時程大概是多久,現在有沒有這方面的計畫?我出國跟委員報告,通常訓練哪種裝備,他要在未來擔任的職務來訓練的。\n278551\t300747\t這個大概沒有辦法全部普遍當然我們期望能夠有就跟步槍一樣每一個不管你有什麼職務一定有設計過但紅水火箭彈的話因為它針對的目標不同那是不是每一個人他人手一具不見得但我不能講因此就沒有訓練為什麼因為如果一旦要用到了可能旁邊有什麼狀況他拿到了\n301267\t316479\t讓任何人都能夠操作那訓練的這個頻次或者科目時數一定會有所調整這初步跟委員做說明啊另外剛剛有關於問到講說哪些這個後備啊什麼的能夠用\n317119\t341314\t後備也在用,但他有沒有實戰,這我要給他確定一下,他也會練操作,操作原因就剛剛跟委員報告,現在哪個用不知道,雖然你的專業是火箭彈兵,但是可能旁邊一有什麼狀況以後,旁邊的兵員幫助他,或者繼續他的任務的話,拿起來也能夠用,就所謂的一專多能,部隊員一專多能的著眼在這個地方。\n342514\t358742\t感謝 因為現在實兵的部分因為當初這個武器的研發就是希望能夠比較廣泛的使用嘛因為它的成本畢竟中科院做出來可以成本弄得比較低所以想知道說他們現在到底有多少人是能夠使用然後以及有沒有這方面的規劃而已但接下來我想問第二個就是實彈的部分\n359142\t360002\t通常一個戰備存量是基本要考慮的\n384372\t405812\t有機能存量在同時不能講說存滿了在做訓練所以他一定有個比例但比例多寡我要確定各單位可能他們是有定的依據但決定的是以戰備為考量戰備存量當中在儲存的時候訓練他可能少部分但拿來做訓練加上這個配比多寡看他彈種研發的狀況產量的狀況來做一個確定\n409415\t433733\t那我問這個問題很大的一個原因是因為假設我們要抓一個訓練的數量那因為我們要希望能夠實地嘛那實地現在因為一些火炮訓練場蠻常被抗議的那國軍又常講就是我在這邊寫著仗在哪裡打部隊在哪裡訓嘛所以就是說現在就是說彈藥儲存還有以及相關的安全措施還有以及就是說如果我們是要儲存在一個有一定距離的地方這個相關目前的規劃是如何\n434175\t459932\t我跟委員報告就是我們目前遇到很現實的問題也是很困難的問題我目前克服的方法是怎麼樣的多協調溝通跟一般民間要用的話產生噪音等等先告知要協調第二個就是我們自己選擇地點跟安排的時間我們要做哪裡或許一天當中本來就一個單位去今天也打明天另外一個單位又打\n460512\t485867\t讓人家覺得說評次那麼高,想法不妥,而且場地不見得有那麼多場地可用,所以我們要把它調配以後有什麼好處呢?一天當中有很多單位在,但我們把這個提示間隔分開,它在打當中,後面就已經在訓,也不會浪費這個時間,也不會浪費我們場地的運用的評段數,也盡量不造成民間的一個\n486527\t486887\t沈伯洋議員\n505436\t534218\t或者它單位裡要用的以它為主但不見得在這個營區在哪個地點來做放置絕對要考量加上如果運用起來不會產生不方便所以也有很多可以舉個簡單例子很多不管是飛彈啊等等不見得在營區這個單位是用飛彈的單位但這個彈不見得在裡面但是未來它的任務一有狀況以後它可能就要出去的那出去地點那個附近我們這樣來規劃安排\n535900\t536200\t中科院\n557266\t571764\t中科院這一邊因為我最近一直在看中科院相關的一些報告我想先問一個問題就是說第一個是監察院之前在講說這一個說打破這一個禁用計畫訂定高齡人員不認主管職的一個原則\n573626\t588336\t現在因為在111跟112年我們可以看到這邊圈起來的192那說真的這個我是覺得蠻重創中科院的一個形象那因為這是112年大概二月的時候大概也過了一年想問一下目前改進的這個措施方向\n589703\t613978\t我是中科院院長感謝監察院的指導報告委員我們高齡回聘的任用完全是依據中高年就業促進法的法規來做當然到目前為止因為監察院認為說這些高齡回聘不適合當主管所以說經過監察院指導之後高齡回聘委員回歸於專業主管就\n616099\t630089\t目前為止因為我的火炸藥是一個非常重要的一個工作為了安全起見只有一位目前還留在化學所長他的高齡回避其他的高齡都已經回歸了回歸到專業區不再擔任主管一職\n631704\t631884\t包委員\n647130\t673310\t我們就是他擔任領導幹部最主要是給他的權力來做指導這主要是基於這個考量那其他的當然如果說你沒有給他一個主觀的職位他沒有辦法對部署出來做專業指導但是金財安這樣這個說法我們就遵照金財安的做法因為我們為了要培育後進所以他主要認為單任主管會擋到後進的這個並沒有說我的方法不對因為即使所以我要回歸專業不擔任主管\n675311\t690439\t大概是這樣並沒有說違法或者說是因為海工戰力提升的整個提高大家的產值增加到6倍所以當時也是因應為什麼把高齡分別留下來就要進入他專業來趕快促進整個任務的執行所以之前沒有這個問題所以這兩年發生的事情\n693240\t712835\t好,那因為這樣一些中層的研究人員當然因為之前發生的這些事情可能會想要出走或什麼等等之類的所以希望能夠在接下來兩個月看中科院能不能有這方面的一些比較具體的計畫就是說OK,我們這個監察院報告出來的我們的改進措施是什麼然後我們怎麼讓這些中層的研發人員的指壓發展能夠再上來,好不好?是的委員謝謝\n714296\t738892\t最後一個問題也是監察院的報告還有一點點時間就是說這個旋轉門的規定當時大概有36家得標的廠商跟中科院限職的員工是配偶或一等親的這個件數目前金額是19.6億元那這個當然其實說真的也是一個不合宜的事情那也一樣的問題就在於說目前這個改進的方向大概是什麼樣子\n739412\t768812\t國務委員報告當然這是因為大概是階層調查是兩年前的事情那我們完全做了改進舉個例我們中科院所有人員都要立意迴避當時因為地地是院長董事長部分的並沒有完全立定我到112年年底把這個規定重新調整所有人必須要立意迴避我們的一級主管一級副主管不得他的二等星級配偶不得參與全院的勾案\n769412\t797882\t那二級主管一等親籍配偶不得參與該所該單位的公關誰要是違反都有明確的規定來處分這些都大幅度的更正了不好意思主席再給我20秒就是說還有一個相關的問題就可能我們之後再來討論就是說那如果這些廠商比如說他本來有這個親屬關係的他離開了那離開了之後我們現在有會因為他一離開我們馬上又跟這個廠商又回去再繼續跟中科院合作\n798582\t822397\t這方面有沒有一些數據?有的,這個我們對於現職人員跟離開的人員離開三年內不得待任五年內他親自從事的工作這是規定那真正的是該委員講的是屬於利益迴避這部分我們中科院的公務人員及院長還有董事監事這個是絕對要合乎法規但是\n823177\t823297\t謝謝委員謝謝主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席,那有請邱部長還有這個國科會的這個李處長,謝謝請邱部長還有國科會處長\n沈委員好部長好那這個因為今天最主要是問國防自主不過因為剛剛黃仁委員問到這一個營區的問題所以我想突然想到一件事情就是在於說就是現在軍方對於這個公務的電腦等等之類的一定對於這個速發部速衛部所稱的這個自通危害產品應該是不能使用\n但我想問的就是說一般就是在露營的時候或者說一般的官兵他們的手機私人的手機當然是不能帶進去嘛那他們私人手機在還沒帶進去之前可能是放在一個固定的地方那他們私人手機現在針對這些資安危害的產品是我們有辦法是禁止他們使用還是沒有辦法\n有辦法,因為我們現在有所會議,它就算有所謂,一定放在外交支付櫃裡面,這第一個。第二個,如果我們發覺它有的話,我們會做一個嚴審。所以很多管道,包含各級的分層負責,在這方面管控,是絕對嚴格。但有時候它弄完以後出去,我不推責任,所以剛才講這個問題,我們也要追查。\n因為這是事前預防的部分所以我覺得可能在這一個方面可能還要再加強因為剛剛才突然想到這件事情那接下來我想要問這一個就是因為這一次我們在講這個國防自主的報告裡面有提到就是要整合國歌會、經濟部等等各部會的一個協作\n以國造衛星為例,中科院有飛彈相關技術可以做導引,國科會有太空中心、衛星等,工研院也會有AI相關的可以整合。\n所以聽起來他是一個跨領域應該是一個目前我們的人才看起來也是足夠然後也在各部會但我這邊唯一想問的問題就是因為在企業界我們都知道就在跨部會的合作的時候如果 因為譬如說每一個人都本來都是待在自己的部門那很容易會有本位主義啦\n所以想問說一些不是說資深的而是說一些專業的人才目前有沒有在不管是在國科會這邊還是在國防部這邊有沒有規劃讓他們在譬如說不同的部會待一陣子之後然後再回來有沒有這樣的一些計畫\n目前我了解講說協調合作是必要的至於未來長期的做一個交流對於人事的一個交流目前我們還沒有想做但我們只跟國防部有關的單位有這種交流的但一般其他部會到目前沒有但通力合作這是一直在進行的我就跟委員舉個例子當初這個全民防衛動員署它成立原因在哪裡就裡面都有各部會的\n現在可以做到講每次都來做一個叫一個同一個辦公室來共同辦公這樣的話會快那未來如果人員交流的話那可能就不光是國防部或某個部門他們意願的問題這可能跟整個人事方面都會要通盤檢討但我們也期望如此每個部會面都有一個某一些專業人員但目前的克服方法就是多做協調已經看一些成果了\n沈伯洋議員\n廣發到現在這個後備旅或基層的這個士兵那因為呢以這個現在國防部的這個角度來看我們要有這一個紅准的火箭彈基本上應該就是要實兵然後實彈然後實地那這樣才可以發揮功效那所以我想個別問一下我想先問一下實兵的部分就是因為現在後備旅的基幹按照之前的新聞報導後備旅的基幹招募上好像是有點比較困難\n現在除了招募困難之外,那如果說現在要廣泛的能夠實兵,讓這些人都可以訓練,是所有人都可以訓練,還是說特定階層的訓練,然後訓練的時程大概是多久,現在有沒有這方面的計畫?我出國跟委員報告,通常訓練哪種裝備,他要在未來擔任的職務來訓練的。\n這個大概沒有辦法全部普遍當然我們期望能夠有就跟步槍一樣每一個不管你有什麼職務一定有設計過但紅水火箭彈的話因為它針對的目標不同那是不是每一個人他人手一具不見得但我不能講因此就沒有訓練為什麼因為如果一旦要用到了可能旁邊有什麼狀況他拿到了\n讓任何人都能夠操作那訓練的這個頻次或者科目時數一定會有所調整這初步跟委員做說明啊另外剛剛有關於問到講說哪些這個後備啊什麼的能夠用\n後備也在用,但他有沒有實戰,這我要給他確定一下,他也會練操作,操作原因就剛剛跟委員報告,現在哪個用不知道,雖然你的專業是火箭彈兵,但是可能旁邊一有什麼狀況以後,旁邊的兵員幫助他,或者繼續他的任務的話,拿起來也能夠用,就所謂的一專多能,部隊員一專多能的著眼在這個地方。\n感謝 因為現在實兵的部分因為當初這個武器的研發就是希望能夠比較廣泛的使用嘛因為它的成本畢竟中科院做出來可以成本弄得比較低所以想知道說他們現在到底有多少人是能夠使用然後以及有沒有這方面的規劃而已但接下來我想問第二個就是實彈的部分\n通常一個戰備存量是基本要考慮的\n有機能存量在同時不能講說存滿了在做訓練所以他一定有個比例但比例多寡我要確定各單位可能他們是有定的依據但決定的是以戰備為考量戰備存量當中在儲存的時候訓練他可能少部分但拿來做訓練加上這個配比多寡看他彈種研發的狀況產量的狀況來做一個確定\n那我問這個問題很大的一個原因是因為假設我們要抓一個訓練的數量那因為我們要希望能夠實地嘛那實地現在因為一些火炮訓練場蠻常被抗議的那國軍又常講就是我在這邊寫著仗在哪裡打部隊在哪裡訓嘛所以就是說現在就是說彈藥儲存還有以及相關的安全措施還有以及就是說如果我們是要儲存在一個有一定距離的地方這個相關目前的規劃是如何\n我跟委員報告就是我們目前遇到很現實的問題也是很困難的問題我目前克服的方法是怎麼樣的多協調溝通跟一般民間要用的話產生噪音等等先告知要協調第二個就是我們自己選擇地點跟安排的時間我們要做哪裡或許一天當中本來就一個單位去今天也打明天另外一個單位又打\n讓人家覺得說評次那麼高,想法不妥,而且場地不見得有那麼多場地可用,所以我們要把它調配以後有什麼好處呢?一天當中有很多單位在,但我們把這個提示間隔分開,它在打當中,後面就已經在訓,也不會浪費這個時間,也不會浪費我們場地的運用的評段數,也盡量不造成民間的一個\n沈伯洋議員\n或者它單位裡要用的以它為主但不見得在這個營區在哪個地點來做放置絕對要考量加上如果運用起來不會產生不方便所以也有很多可以舉個簡單例子很多不管是飛彈啊等等不見得在營區這個單位是用飛彈的單位但這個彈不見得在裡面但是未來它的任務一有狀況以後它可能就要出去的那出去地點那個附近我們這樣來規劃安排\n中科院\n中科院這一邊因為我最近一直在看中科院相關的一些報告我想先問一個問題就是說第一個是監察院之前在講說這一個說打破這一個禁用計畫訂定高齡人員不認主管職的一個原則\n現在因為在111跟112年我們可以看到這邊圈起來的192那說真的這個我是覺得蠻重創中科院的一個形象那因為這是112年大概二月的時候大概也過了一年想問一下目前改進的這個措施方向\n我是中科院院長感謝監察院的指導報告委員我們高齡回聘的任用完全是依據中高年就業促進法的法規來做當然到目前為止因為監察院認為說這些高齡回聘不適合當主管所以說經過監察院指導之後高齡回聘委員回歸於專業主管就\n目前為止因為我的火炸藥是一個非常重要的一個工作為了安全起見只有一位目前還留在化學所長他的高齡回避其他的高齡都已經回歸了回歸到專業區不再擔任主管一職\n包委員\n我們就是他擔任領導幹部最主要是給他的權力來做指導這主要是基於這個考量那其他的當然如果說你沒有給他一個主觀的職位他沒有辦法對部署出來做專業指導但是金財安這樣這個說法我們就遵照金財安的做法因為我們為了要培育後進所以他主要認為單任主管會擋到後進的這個並沒有說我的方法不對因為即使所以我要回歸專業不擔任主管\n大概是這樣並沒有說違法或者說是因為海工戰力提升的整個提高大家的產值增加到6倍所以當時也是因應為什麼把高齡分別留下來就要進入他專業來趕快促進整個任務的執行所以之前沒有這個問題所以這兩年發生的事情\n好,那因為這樣一些中層的研究人員當然因為之前發生的這些事情可能會想要出走或什麼等等之類的所以希望能夠在接下來兩個月看中科院能不能有這方面的一些比較具體的計畫就是說OK,我們這個監察院報告出來的我們的改進措施是什麼然後我們怎麼讓這些中層的研發人員的指壓發展能夠再上來,好不好?是的委員謝謝\n最後一個問題也是監察院的報告還有一點點時間就是說這個旋轉門的規定當時大概有36家得標的廠商跟中科院限職的員工是配偶或一等親的這個件數目前金額是19.6億元那這個當然其實說真的也是一個不合宜的事情那也一樣的問題就在於說目前這個改進的方向大概是什麼樣子\n國務委員報告當然這是因為大概是階層調查是兩年前的事情那我們完全做了改進舉個例我們中科院所有人員都要立意迴避當時因為地地是院長董事長部分的並沒有完全立定我到112年年底把這個規定重新調整所有人必須要立意迴避我們的一級主管一級副主管不得他的二等星級配偶不得參與全院的勾案\n那二級主管一等親籍配偶不得參與該所該單位的公關誰要是違反都有明確的規定來處分這些都大幅度的更正了不好意思主席再給我20秒就是說還有一個相關的問題就可能我們之後再來討論就是說那如果這些廠商比如說他本來有這個親屬關係的他離開了那離開了之後我們現在有會因為他一離開我們馬上又跟這個廠商又回去再繼續跟中科院合作\n這方面有沒有一些數據?有的,這個我們對於現職人員跟離開的人員離開三年內不得待任五年內他親自從事的工作這是規定那真正的是該委員講的是屬於利益迴避這部分我們中科院的公務人員及院長還有董事監事這個是絕對要合乎法規但是\n謝謝委員謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.251 --> 00:03.193\n謝謝主席,那有請邱部長還有這個國科會的這個李處長,謝謝請邱部長還有國科會處長\n\n00:17.239 --> 00:38.314\n沈委員好部長好那這個因為今天最主要是問國防自主不過因為剛剛黃仁委員問到這一個營區的問題所以我想突然想到一件事情就是在於說就是現在軍方對於這個公務的電腦等等之類的一定對於這個速發部速衛部所稱的這個自通危害產品應該是不能使用\n\n00:38.974 --> 00:58.192\n但我想問的就是說一般就是在露營的時候或者說一般的官兵他們的手機私人的手機當然是不能帶進去嘛那他們私人手機在還沒帶進去之前可能是放在一個固定的地方那他們私人手機現在針對這些資安危害的產品是我們有辦法是禁止他們使用還是沒有辦法\n\n00:58.832 --> 01:21.327\n有辦法,因為我們現在有所會議,它就算有所謂,一定放在外交支付櫃裡面,這第一個。第二個,如果我們發覺它有的話,我們會做一個嚴審。所以很多管道,包含各級的分層負責,在這方面管控,是絕對嚴格。但有時候它弄完以後出去,我不推責任,所以剛才講這個問題,我們也要追查。\n\n01:24.850 --> 01:43.452\n因為這是事前預防的部分所以我覺得可能在這一個方面可能還要再加強因為剛剛才突然想到這件事情那接下來我想要問這一個就是因為這一次我們在講這個國防自主的報告裡面有提到就是要整合國歌會、經濟部等等各部會的一個協作\n\n01:44.133 --> 01:46.475\n以國造衛星為例,中科院有飛彈相關技術可以做導引,國科會有太空中心、衛星等,工研院也會有AI相關的可以整合。\n\n02:00.203 --> 02:16.861\n所以聽起來他是一個跨領域應該是一個目前我們的人才看起來也是足夠然後也在各部會但我這邊唯一想問的問題就是因為在企業界我們都知道就在跨部會的合作的時候如果因為譬如說每一個人都本來都是待在自己的部門那很容易會有本位主義啦\n\n02:17.441 --> 02:31.222\n所以想問說一些不是說資深的而是說一些專業的人才目前有沒有在不管是在國科會這邊還是在國防部這邊有沒有規劃讓他們在譬如說不同的部會待一陣子之後然後再回來有沒有這樣的一些計畫\n\n02:32.219 --> 02:59.799\n目前我了解講說協調合作是必要的至於未來長期的做一個交流對於人事的一個交流目前我們還沒有想做但我們只跟國防部有關的單位有這種交流的但一般其他部會到目前沒有但通力合作這是一直在進行的我就跟委員舉個例子當初這個全民防衛動員署它成立原因在哪裡就裡面都有各部會的\n\n03:00.620 --> 03:28.437\n現在可以做到講每次都來做一個叫一個同一個辦公室來共同辦公這樣的話會快那未來如果人員交流的話那可能就不光是國防部或某個部門他們意願的問題這可能跟整個人事方面都會要通盤檢討但我們也期望如此每個部會面都有一個某一些專業人員但目前的克服方法就是多做協調已經看一些成果了\n\n03:28.737 --> 03:29.137\n沈伯洋議員\n\n03:51.100 --> 04:15.688\n廣發到現在這個後備旅或基層的這個士兵那因為呢以這個現在國防部的這個角度來看我們要有這一個紅准的火箭彈基本上應該就是要實兵然後實彈然後實地那這樣才可以發揮功效那所以我想個別問一下我想先問一下實兵的部分就是因為現在後備旅的基幹按照之前的新聞報導後備旅的基幹招募上好像是有點比較困難\n\n04:16.889 --> 04:33.105\n現在除了招募困難之外,那如果說現在要廣泛的能夠實兵,讓這些人都可以訓練,是所有人都可以訓練,還是說特定階層的訓練,然後訓練的時程大概是多久,現在有沒有這方面的計畫?我出國跟委員報告,通常訓練哪種裝備,他要在未來擔任的職務來訓練的。\n\n04:38.551 --> 05:00.747\n這個大概沒有辦法全部普遍當然我們期望能夠有就跟步槍一樣每一個不管你有什麼職務一定有設計過但紅水火箭彈的話因為它針對的目標不同那是不是每一個人他人手一具不見得但我不能講因此就沒有訓練為什麼因為如果一旦要用到了可能旁邊有什麼狀況他拿到了\n\n05:01.267 --> 05:16.479\n讓任何人都能夠操作那訓練的這個頻次或者科目時數一定會有所調整這初步跟委員做說明啊另外剛剛有關於問到講說哪些這個後備啊什麼的能夠用\n\n05:17.119 --> 05:41.314\n後備也在用,但他有沒有實戰,這我要給他確定一下,他也會練操作,操作原因就剛剛跟委員報告,現在哪個用不知道,雖然你的專業是火箭彈兵,但是可能旁邊一有什麼狀況以後,旁邊的兵員幫助他,或者繼續他的任務的話,拿起來也能夠用,就所謂的一專多能,部隊員一專多能的著眼在這個地方。\n\n05:42.514 --> 05:58.742\n感謝因為現在實兵的部分因為當初這個武器的研發就是希望能夠比較廣泛的使用嘛因為它的成本畢竟中科院做出來可以成本弄得比較低所以想知道說他們現在到底有多少人是能夠使用然後以及有沒有這方面的規劃而已但接下來我想問第二個就是實彈的部分\n\n05:59.142 --> 06:00.002\n通常一個戰備存量是基本要考慮的\n\n06:24.372 --> 06:45.812\n有機能存量在同時不能講說存滿了在做訓練所以他一定有個比例但比例多寡我要確定各單位可能他們是有定的依據但決定的是以戰備為考量戰備存量當中在儲存的時候訓練他可能少部分但拿來做訓練加上這個配比多寡看他彈種研發的狀況產量的狀況來做一個確定\n\n06:49.415 --> 07:13.733\n那我問這個問題很大的一個原因是因為假設我們要抓一個訓練的數量那因為我們要希望能夠實地嘛那實地現在因為一些火炮訓練場蠻常被抗議的那國軍又常講就是我在這邊寫著仗在哪裡打部隊在哪裡訓嘛所以就是說現在就是說彈藥儲存還有以及相關的安全措施還有以及就是說如果我們是要儲存在一個有一定距離的地方這個相關目前的規劃是如何\n\n07:14.175 --> 07:39.932\n我跟委員報告就是我們目前遇到很現實的問題也是很困難的問題我目前克服的方法是怎麼樣的多協調溝通跟一般民間要用的話產生噪音等等先告知要協調第二個就是我們自己選擇地點跟安排的時間我們要做哪裡或許一天當中本來就一個單位去今天也打明天另外一個單位又打\n\n07:40.512 --> 08:05.867\n讓人家覺得說評次那麼高,想法不妥,而且場地不見得有那麼多場地可用,所以我們要把它調配以後有什麼好處呢?一天當中有很多單位在,但我們把這個提示間隔分開,它在打當中,後面就已經在訓,也不會浪費這個時間,也不會浪費我們場地的運用的評段數,也盡量不造成民間的一個\n\n08:06.527 --> 08:06.887\n沈伯洋議員\n\n08:25.436 --> 08:54.218\n或者它單位裡要用的以它為主但不見得在這個營區在哪個地點來做放置絕對要考量加上如果運用起來不會產生不方便所以也有很多可以舉個簡單例子很多不管是飛彈啊等等不見得在營區這個單位是用飛彈的單位但這個彈不見得在裡面但是未來它的任務一有狀況以後它可能就要出去的那出去地點那個附近我們這樣來規劃安排\n\n08:55.900 --> 08:56.200\n中科院\n\n09:17.266 --> 09:31.764\n中科院這一邊因為我最近一直在看中科院相關的一些報告我想先問一個問題就是說第一個是監察院之前在講說這一個說打破這一個禁用計畫訂定高齡人員不認主管職的一個原則\n\n09:33.626 --> 09:48.336\n現在因為在111跟112年我們可以看到這邊圈起來的192那說真的這個我是覺得蠻重創中科院的一個形象那因為這是112年大概二月的時候大概也過了一年想問一下目前改進的這個措施方向\n\n09:49.703 --> 10:13.978\n我是中科院院長感謝監察院的指導報告委員我們高齡回聘的任用完全是依據中高年就業促進法的法規來做當然到目前為止因為監察院認為說這些高齡回聘不適合當主管所以說經過監察院指導之後高齡回聘委員回歸於專業主管就\n\n10:16.099 --> 10:30.089\n目前為止因為我的火炸藥是一個非常重要的一個工作為了安全起見只有一位目前還留在化學所長他的高齡回避其他的高齡都已經回歸了回歸到專業區不再擔任主管一職\n\n10:31.704 --> 10:31.884\n包委員\n\n10:47.130 --> 11:13.310\n我們就是他擔任領導幹部最主要是給他的權力來做指導這主要是基於這個考量那其他的當然如果說你沒有給他一個主觀的職位他沒有辦法對部署出來做專業指導但是金財安這樣這個說法我們就遵照金財安的做法因為我們為了要培育後進所以他主要認為單任主管會擋到後進的這個並沒有說我的方法不對因為即使所以我要回歸專業不擔任主管\n\n11:15.311 --> 11:30.439\n大概是這樣並沒有說違法或者說是因為海工戰力提升的整個提高大家的產值增加到6倍所以當時也是因應為什麼把高齡分別留下來就要進入他專業來趕快促進整個任務的執行所以之前沒有這個問題所以這兩年發生的事情\n\n11:33.240 --> 11:52.835\n好,那因為這樣一些中層的研究人員當然因為之前發生的這些事情可能會想要出走或什麼等等之類的所以希望能夠在接下來兩個月看中科院能不能有這方面的一些比較具體的計畫就是說OK,我們這個監察院報告出來的我們的改進措施是什麼然後我們怎麼讓這些中層的研發人員的指壓發展能夠再上來,好不好?是的委員謝謝\n\n11:54.296 --> 12:18.892\n最後一個問題也是監察院的報告還有一點點時間就是說這個旋轉門的規定當時大概有36家得標的廠商跟中科院限職的員工是配偶或一等親的這個件數目前金額是19.6億元那這個當然其實說真的也是一個不合宜的事情那也一樣的問題就在於說目前這個改進的方向大概是什麼樣子\n\n12:19.412 --> 12:48.812\n國務委員報告當然這是因為大概是階層調查是兩年前的事情那我們完全做了改進舉個例我們中科院所有人員都要立意迴避當時因為地地是院長董事長部分的並沒有完全立定我到112年年底把這個規定重新調整所有人必須要立意迴避我們的一級主管一級副主管不得他的二等星級配偶不得參與全院的勾案\n\n12:49.412 --> 13:17.882\n那二級主管一等親籍配偶不得參與該所該單位的公關誰要是違反都有明確的規定來處分這些都大幅度的更正了不好意思主席再給我20秒就是說還有一個相關的問題就可能我們之後再來討論就是說那如果這些廠商比如說他本來有這個親屬關係的他離開了那離開了之後我們現在有會因為他一離開我們馬上又跟這個廠商又回去再繼續跟中科院合作\n\n13:18.582 --> 13:42.397\n這方面有沒有一些數據?有的,這個我們對於現職人員跟離開的人員離開三年內不得待任五年內他親自從事的工作這是規定那真正的是該委員講的是屬於利益迴避這部分我們中科院的公務人員及院長還有董事監事這個是絕對要合乎法規但是\n\n13:43.177 --> 13:43.297\n謝謝委員謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.251,"end":3.193,"text":"謝謝主席,那有請邱部長還有這個國科會的這個李處長,謝謝請邱部長還有國科會處長"},{"start":17.239,"end":38.314,"text":"沈委員好部長好那這個因為今天最主要是問國防自主不過因為剛剛黃仁委員問到這一個營區的問題所以我想突然想到一件事情就是在於說就是現在軍方對於這個公務的電腦等等之類的一定對於這個速發部速衛部所稱的這個自通危害產品應該是不能使用"},{"start":38.974,"end":58.192,"text":"但我想問的就是說一般就是在露營的時候或者說一般的官兵他們的手機私人的手機當然是不能帶進去嘛那他們私人手機在還沒帶進去之前可能是放在一個固定的地方那他們私人手機現在針對這些資安危害的產品是我們有辦法是禁止他們使用還是沒有辦法"},{"start":58.832,"end":81.327,"text":"有辦法,因為我們現在有所會議,它就算有所謂,一定放在外交支付櫃裡面,這第一個。第二個,如果我們發覺它有的話,我們會做一個嚴審。所以很多管道,包含各級的分層負責,在這方面管控,是絕對嚴格。但有時候它弄完以後出去,我不推責任,所以剛才講這個問題,我們也要追查。"},{"start":84.85,"end":103.452,"text":"因為這是事前預防的部分所以我覺得可能在這一個方面可能還要再加強因為剛剛才突然想到這件事情那接下來我想要問這一個就是因為這一次我們在講這個國防自主的報告裡面有提到就是要整合國歌會、經濟部等等各部會的一個協作"},{"start":104.133,"end":106.475,"text":"以國造衛星為例,中科院有飛彈相關技術可以做導引,國科會有太空中心、衛星等,工研院也會有AI相關的可以整合。"},{"start":120.203,"end":136.861,"text":"所以聽起來他是一個跨領域應該是一個目前我們的人才看起來也是足夠然後也在各部會但我這邊唯一想問的問題就是因為在企業界我們都知道就在跨部會的合作的時候如果 因為譬如說每一個人都本來都是待在自己的部門那很容易會有本位主義啦"},{"start":137.441,"end":151.222,"text":"所以想問說一些不是說資深的而是說一些專業的人才目前有沒有在不管是在國科會這邊還是在國防部這邊有沒有規劃讓他們在譬如說不同的部會待一陣子之後然後再回來有沒有這樣的一些計畫"},{"start":152.219,"end":179.799,"text":"目前我了解講說協調合作是必要的至於未來長期的做一個交流對於人事的一個交流目前我們還沒有想做但我們只跟國防部有關的單位有這種交流的但一般其他部會到目前沒有但通力合作這是一直在進行的我就跟委員舉個例子當初這個全民防衛動員署它成立原因在哪裡就裡面都有各部會的"},{"start":180.62,"end":208.437,"text":"現在可以做到講每次都來做一個叫一個同一個辦公室來共同辦公這樣的話會快那未來如果人員交流的話那可能就不光是國防部或某個部門他們意願的問題這可能跟整個人事方面都會要通盤檢討但我們也期望如此每個部會面都有一個某一些專業人員但目前的克服方法就是多做協調已經看一些成果了"},{"start":208.737,"end":209.137,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":231.1,"end":255.688,"text":"廣發到現在這個後備旅或基層的這個士兵那因為呢以這個現在國防部的這個角度來看我們要有這一個紅准的火箭彈基本上應該就是要實兵然後實彈然後實地那這樣才可以發揮功效那所以我想個別問一下我想先問一下實兵的部分就是因為現在後備旅的基幹按照之前的新聞報導後備旅的基幹招募上好像是有點比較困難"},{"start":256.889,"end":273.105,"text":"現在除了招募困難之外,那如果說現在要廣泛的能夠實兵,讓這些人都可以訓練,是所有人都可以訓練,還是說特定階層的訓練,然後訓練的時程大概是多久,現在有沒有這方面的計畫?我出國跟委員報告,通常訓練哪種裝備,他要在未來擔任的職務來訓練的。"},{"start":278.551,"end":300.747,"text":"這個大概沒有辦法全部普遍當然我們期望能夠有就跟步槍一樣每一個不管你有什麼職務一定有設計過但紅水火箭彈的話因為它針對的目標不同那是不是每一個人他人手一具不見得但我不能講因此就沒有訓練為什麼因為如果一旦要用到了可能旁邊有什麼狀況他拿到了"},{"start":301.267,"end":316.479,"text":"讓任何人都能夠操作那訓練的這個頻次或者科目時數一定會有所調整這初步跟委員做說明啊另外剛剛有關於問到講說哪些這個後備啊什麼的能夠用"},{"start":317.119,"end":341.314,"text":"後備也在用,但他有沒有實戰,這我要給他確定一下,他也會練操作,操作原因就剛剛跟委員報告,現在哪個用不知道,雖然你的專業是火箭彈兵,但是可能旁邊一有什麼狀況以後,旁邊的兵員幫助他,或者繼續他的任務的話,拿起來也能夠用,就所謂的一專多能,部隊員一專多能的著眼在這個地方。"},{"start":342.514,"end":358.742,"text":"感謝 因為現在實兵的部分因為當初這個武器的研發就是希望能夠比較廣泛的使用嘛因為它的成本畢竟中科院做出來可以成本弄得比較低所以想知道說他們現在到底有多少人是能夠使用然後以及有沒有這方面的規劃而已但接下來我想問第二個就是實彈的部分"},{"start":359.142,"end":360.002,"text":"通常一個戰備存量是基本要考慮的"},{"start":384.372,"end":405.812,"text":"有機能存量在同時不能講說存滿了在做訓練所以他一定有個比例但比例多寡我要確定各單位可能他們是有定的依據但決定的是以戰備為考量戰備存量當中在儲存的時候訓練他可能少部分但拿來做訓練加上這個配比多寡看他彈種研發的狀況產量的狀況來做一個確定"},{"start":409.415,"end":433.733,"text":"那我問這個問題很大的一個原因是因為假設我們要抓一個訓練的數量那因為我們要希望能夠實地嘛那實地現在因為一些火炮訓練場蠻常被抗議的那國軍又常講就是我在這邊寫著仗在哪裡打部隊在哪裡訓嘛所以就是說現在就是說彈藥儲存還有以及相關的安全措施還有以及就是說如果我們是要儲存在一個有一定距離的地方這個相關目前的規劃是如何"},{"start":434.175,"end":459.932,"text":"我跟委員報告就是我們目前遇到很現實的問題也是很困難的問題我目前克服的方法是怎麼樣的多協調溝通跟一般民間要用的話產生噪音等等先告知要協調第二個就是我們自己選擇地點跟安排的時間我們要做哪裡或許一天當中本來就一個單位去今天也打明天另外一個單位又打"},{"start":460.512,"end":485.867,"text":"讓人家覺得說評次那麼高,想法不妥,而且場地不見得有那麼多場地可用,所以我們要把它調配以後有什麼好處呢?一天當中有很多單位在,但我們把這個提示間隔分開,它在打當中,後面就已經在訓,也不會浪費這個時間,也不會浪費我們場地的運用的評段數,也盡量不造成民間的一個"},{"start":486.527,"end":486.887,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":505.436,"end":534.218,"text":"或者它單位裡要用的以它為主但不見得在這個營區在哪個地點來做放置絕對要考量加上如果運用起來不會產生不方便所以也有很多可以舉個簡單例子很多不管是飛彈啊等等不見得在營區這個單位是用飛彈的單位但這個彈不見得在裡面但是未來它的任務一有狀況以後它可能就要出去的那出去地點那個附近我們這樣來規劃安排"},{"start":535.9,"end":536.2,"text":"中科院"},{"start":557.266,"end":571.764,"text":"中科院這一邊因為我最近一直在看中科院相關的一些報告我想先問一個問題就是說第一個是監察院之前在講說這一個說打破這一個禁用計畫訂定高齡人員不認主管職的一個原則"},{"start":573.626,"end":588.336,"text":"現在因為在111跟112年我們可以看到這邊圈起來的192那說真的這個我是覺得蠻重創中科院的一個形象那因為這是112年大概二月的時候大概也過了一年想問一下目前改進的這個措施方向"},{"start":589.703,"end":613.978,"text":"我是中科院院長感謝監察院的指導報告委員我們高齡回聘的任用完全是依據中高年就業促進法的法規來做當然到目前為止因為監察院認為說這些高齡回聘不適合當主管所以說經過監察院指導之後高齡回聘委員回歸於專業主管就"},{"start":616.099,"end":630.089,"text":"目前為止因為我的火炸藥是一個非常重要的一個工作為了安全起見只有一位目前還留在化學所長他的高齡回避其他的高齡都已經回歸了回歸到專業區不再擔任主管一職"},{"start":631.704,"end":631.884,"text":"包委員"},{"start":647.13,"end":673.31,"text":"我們就是他擔任領導幹部最主要是給他的權力來做指導這主要是基於這個考量那其他的當然如果說你沒有給他一個主觀的職位他沒有辦法對部署出來做專業指導但是金財安這樣這個說法我們就遵照金財安的做法因為我們為了要培育後進所以他主要認為單任主管會擋到後進的這個並沒有說我的方法不對因為即使所以我要回歸專業不擔任主管"},{"start":675.311,"end":690.439,"text":"大概是這樣並沒有說違法或者說是因為海工戰力提升的整個提高大家的產值增加到6倍所以當時也是因應為什麼把高齡分別留下來就要進入他專業來趕快促進整個任務的執行所以之前沒有這個問題所以這兩年發生的事情"},{"start":693.24,"end":712.835,"text":"好,那因為這樣一些中層的研究人員當然因為之前發生的這些事情可能會想要出走或什麼等等之類的所以希望能夠在接下來兩個月看中科院能不能有這方面的一些比較具體的計畫就是說OK,我們這個監察院報告出來的我們的改進措施是什麼然後我們怎麼讓這些中層的研發人員的指壓發展能夠再上來,好不好?是的委員謝謝"},{"start":714.296,"end":738.892,"text":"最後一個問題也是監察院的報告還有一點點時間就是說這個旋轉門的規定當時大概有36家得標的廠商跟中科院限職的員工是配偶或一等親的這個件數目前金額是19.6億元那這個當然其實說真的也是一個不合宜的事情那也一樣的問題就在於說目前這個改進的方向大概是什麼樣子"},{"start":739.412,"end":768.812,"text":"國務委員報告當然這是因為大概是階層調查是兩年前的事情那我們完全做了改進舉個例我們中科院所有人員都要立意迴避當時因為地地是院長董事長部分的並沒有完全立定我到112年年底把這個規定重新調整所有人必須要立意迴避我們的一級主管一級副主管不得他的二等星級配偶不得參與全院的勾案"},{"start":769.412,"end":797.882,"text":"那二級主管一等親籍配偶不得參與該所該單位的公關誰要是違反都有明確的規定來處分這些都大幅度的更正了不好意思主席再給我20秒就是說還有一個相關的問題就可能我們之後再來討論就是說那如果這些廠商比如說他本來有這個親屬關係的他離開了那離開了之後我們現在有會因為他一離開我們馬上又跟這個廠商又回去再繼續跟中科院合作"},{"start":798.582,"end":822.397,"text":"這方面有沒有一些數據?有的,這個我們對於現職人員跟離開的人員離開三年內不得待任五年內他親自從事的工作這是規定那真正的是該委員講的是屬於利益迴避這部分我們中科院的公務人員及院長還有董事監事這個是絕對要合乎法規但是"},{"start":823.177,"end":823.297,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝主席"}]}}}}