{"id":150715,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150715","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0ecd8e79c3925dbc591bc002822e084d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6429250ef736007d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:04:13 - 10:18:33","影片長度":"00:14:20","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":860,"end_time":"2024-04-01T10:18:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T10:04:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":239,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時4分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：王召委好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。我先跟您請教一下，今年的漢光40號演習是先電腦兵推、再實兵驗證，我們好像前年還是去年反過來，因為那時遇到疫情的關係，我可不可以請教一下，今年有沒有跟以往不同的科目？能不能讓納稅人瞭解？就是我們每一年不同的想定、不同的科目大概都會根據臺海的局勢做判斷嘛，今年的漢光40號有沒有新的科目？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，為什麼每一年都要做漢光演習？就是針對當時或這一年，或者去年漢光推演完以後的結論，哪些需要精進，就加在下一年裡面。"],["王委員定宇：以往我們漢光演習設定的是10年後……"],["邱部長國正：都有。"],["王委員定宇：以前啦！今年設定的是當下的情況還是未來的情況？"],["邱部長國正：今年就針對當下的。"],["王委員定宇：今年設定的是當下的情況？"],["邱部長國正：以前有未來5年的裝備如何、敵情會怎麼樣，要預判，後來也有改變，就拿當下、明年它可能會怎樣……"],["王委員定宇：部長方不方便透露今年有沒有什麼新的科目，表示我們國防部、我們軍中現在重視這個議題，我們把它納進去，來看看我們整個兵推的狀況有沒有什麼改進的地方？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，這個一定會有，但是這個科目的來源或者哪邊強化，這都算一個改變，但是改變不是我覺得這個重要它就重要，而是隨著環境的變遷，我們會有一些科目加進來。"],["王委員定宇：今年有沒有把中國的滾裝貨輪加進去？因為以往「由演轉戰」是中國設定的模式，我們後來看到中國大量製造他們的滾裝貨輪，那一台上面裝甲車、人員就直接上去了，長得像民間的船，它沒動手，你還不能先動它。我們在漢光演習裡面有沒有把這個放到我們設想的狀況裡面？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，這個是必然的，因為任何一個敵情的變化也就是我們想定的依據，所以它一有變化，我們當然會做個調整，至於調整哪個項目、怎麼調整它的強度，那就是另外我們要做的討論，這個再私下……"],["王委員定宇：我們現在一年期的義務役第一批已經下部隊了嘛？新訓結束了嘛？上次在203旅那邊，我看他們已經完訓了。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["王委員定宇：這次漢光演習有沒有用到他們？"],["邱部長國正：他只要有參與的話……"],["王委員定宇：應該有參與到一些科目啦！"],["邱部長國正：只要他的職務有參與的，那也一樣就參與了，就算比較不熟……"],["王委員定宇：因為我們前兩年有特別把後備戰力編整了，我印象是編了一個砲兵營，把它放在漢光不知道是38號還是39號來做驗證，那我們今年不管是後備戰力、現在的新式訓練，或者是義務役從4個月恢復為原來的1年期，第一次的新訓已經下部隊了，在這次的漢光演習裡面，他們有沒有什麼角色？"],["邱部長國正：分兩個，一個是電腦兵推，一個是實兵，假使說他在這次的實兵演習當中的職務、這個部隊就要做一個實兵操演的單位的話，他必然要參加，至於以往講的好像有參與或刻意動員一個單位，這也是可以做的，但要刻意動員也要符合……"],["王委員定宇：你說「刻意」就是我們把後備軍人召集之後編成一個砲兵營嘛！"],["邱部長國正：就是召集一個單位，設定它要參加漢光演習，這是一個方法。有些時候是漢光定了以後，剛好有一個單位……"],["王委員定宇：今年有沒有把後備單獨編成一個單位的情形？"],["邱部長國正：今年應該也是會有啦！"],["王委員定宇：白署長，今年有嗎？"],["白署長捷隆：有。我們每年的漢光實兵演習都有配合同心動員演習，沒有問題，每年都在做。"],["王委員定宇：今年動多少？動一個營還是多少人？"],["白署長捷隆：我再跟您報告，但是我們逐年都調整增加。"],["王委員定宇：上次動員的我看是砲兵兵科。"],["白署長捷隆：都有、都有。"],["王委員定宇：這次……"],["白署長捷隆：各兵科都有。"],["王委員定宇：各兵科都有？"],["白署長捷隆：對！"],["王委員定宇：你先請回。我請教部長，今年友軍來觀摩的有沒有新增加一些盟友、自由民主聯盟的成員來觀摩我們的漢光演習？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，以往觀摩等等都是在交流的範疇之一，但是今年的人數或是有什麼變更，我會派人到……"],["王委員定宇：因為美國從NDAA還有一些法案通過之後，法律上是允許他們的現役將領可以來臺灣，實質上這個當然還是保持低調，有或沒有我們也不在這邊證實，但我的意思是說，今年的漢光40號有沒有印太司令部？因為4月10日美國和日本的安保條約可能會有改變，改成四星上將的指揮權直接放在日本，包含轄下的沖繩等等，今年我們的漢光40號剛好是它在印太地區不管是編組、指揮權各方面，美軍其實有做了相當大的更新，今年有沒有印太司令部？他們的法律是允許的，我是問他們印太司令部有沒有派現役的人來？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，每一年的漢光他們要派什麼人來，之前都有協調過……"],["王委員定宇：都要協調？"],["邱部長國正：對，一定會協調，所以它派哪些人來，我們只要知道了，都會跟委員做報告，但目前……"],["王委員定宇：不方便講你可以不講，我的意思是說……"],["邱部長國正：對，我們要是知道，會私下……"],["王委員定宇：邏輯上是這樣子，two plus two，不管是美日；日本、印度；美國、印度；菲律賓、日本、美國，這些高峰會裡面的前三名主題都有臺海安全、和平穩定……"],["邱部長國正：對，沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：都在講我們家的事情，不太可能跟我們家都毫無聯繫嘛！"],["邱部長國正：不會。"],["王委員定宇：部隊就是你有想定、你有計畫，透過演練去確認計畫可不可行，再進行修正，它會有個過程，所以漢光對臺灣來講是年度重要的軍演，周邊國家關切的是臺海和平穩定，南海、東海等等都在我們周邊，所以光用邏輯來想，如果沒有這樣的觀摩跟互相聯繫的話，那是極度的空洞，也危險啦！所以我才會就教部長說，今年的漢光40號，因為印太司令部透過美國、日本的元首高峰會，要把駐日美軍從三星，他是中將，把他提升到四星上將等等，這個變動有沒有跟我們今年漢光40號，它派人來觀摩的規模、內容等等有所不同，有沒有不一樣的地方？"],["邱部長國正：它的一個原則不會變，不一樣的像是哪一個單位人數多一點或少一點，是這樣子。"],["王委員定宇：但是會有啦！"],["邱部長國正：一定會有。"],["王委員定宇：但是細節你們還要再談。"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["王委員定宇：時間也差不多，以部隊作業來講，我瞭解國軍其實蠻科學的，都會蠻提早就作業的，不可能到現在還沒作業，如果不方便說，我尊重，但是應該要有。"],["邱部長國正：是，剛剛委員講的這幾個原則絕對沒有錯，你跟哪個單位好像可以很接近，那一定要參與，但參與的程度、人數、層級，這都是私下我們會談的。"],["王委員定宇：今年會不會特別高？"],["邱部長國正：這個……"],["王委員定宇：規模、層級會不會比以往特別高？"],["邱部長國正：我只能講，會有所調整啦！反正就是……"],["王委員定宇：臺下有人在點頭，我就不要點名了，但是我的意思是，規模就是來的人數，而觀摩團的層級，層級是他的官階，如果有比以往提高的話，是合理的現象，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：是，我瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：我接下來要請教有關軍品驗證的問題，其他不相關的人員就先請回。在三年多前，大概四年前我們通過了國防產業促進條例，在這個條例裡面，我們為了建構我們的國防產業，事實上國防產業對經濟是很重要的。之前不久美國有一個報告，因為俄烏戰爭，各地才發現戰備軍需不足、無人載具的應用等等，所以他們推估2027年到2029年全球的國防產業產值是遠高過電動汽車，這個數字就很驚人。臺灣的中小企業、國內的精密機械，我們的IT、我們的晶片，臺灣在經濟上有我們的強項，所以我們在當時推動國防產業促進條例的時候，裡面要建構我們的國防產業供應鏈，要建構要先看它的能耐，它的能耐經過軍品驗證，這些品項驗證了，未來我們採購是以驗證過的廠商為優先採購，這是一套邏輯、當時法的邏輯。","這個法還有一些施行細則，通過那麼久了，目前我們公告的列管軍品清單有717項，還在審議當中的有156項，也就是這些品項未來通過了，不管是陸、海、空軍，我們要採購這樣的零組件時，甲、乙、丙級的供應商，它有驗證的，我們就優先跟它採購。本席當時在質詢有提醒，儘量讓通過驗證的廠商多幾家，你不能讓一家去壟斷你，因為這個驗證通過，你只能跟它買，如果只有一家驗證過，它講10塊就10塊、講100塊就100塊的話，對買方，也就是對我們國軍是不利的。所以驗證，它的程度達標了、它的品質也達標了，這個螺絲、這個車葉、這個砲管達標了，我們希望多幾家，這樣才會產生雖然是符合軍品驗證的廠商，但是它達標的廠商夠多，也可以達到一定的競爭，否則國防部會被綁死了。","所以現在我們看到國防部核發，就是我們公告要列管的軍品有717項，結果你們現在廠商合格證總共是12家、89張。部長，你會不會擔心這些拿到合格證的就是單一廠商，無法不跟它買，依法你一定只能跟它買，你要跟它議價，可是它因為就一家嘛，有的真的只有它會做，那它賣貴一點，我們也拿它沒皮條。這個現象有沒有辦法改善？多一些認證，讓它產生一些競爭，部長，你怎麼看這個問題？"],["邱部長國正：剛剛委員已經講了，就是家數越多，我們可以選擇的機率就……"],["王委員定宇：當然。"],["邱部長國正：但是目前這個工作持續在進行，據我目前瞭解，要來參與國防工業、共同來發展的這些家數不多，已經有一千多家，然後……"],["王委員定宇：一千多家？我們現在只發12張而已耶！"],["邱部長國正：參加說明會的有一千多家。"],["王委員定宇：是品項還是廠商？"],["邱部長國正：我們說明會時來參與的。"],["王委員定宇：來參與的有一千多家？"],["邱部長國正：對，但參與就代表他們有這個興趣。"],["王委員定宇：有意願嘛！"],["邱部長國正：對，然後我們按照這個程序一步一步，儘量讓他們能夠參與。"],["王委員定宇：我提醒部長，我們現在對美採購是由戰規司，武器國造是由軍備局，我一直提醒軍備局的就是，在這個驗證上，當然品質、各方面的能力，還有資安，一定要達標，但是另外一面我們要儘量去輔導，同樣一個品項最好多幾家達標，多幾家達標之後才會產生競爭，品質才會提升、價格才會制衡，否則我們只能跟它買，我們現在規定就只能跟它買，又只有它達標，那未來會產生一種制度性的壟斷，這個對國軍是不利的。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["王委員定宇：另外，現在真的核發的家數太少，我不知道問題在哪裡，局長剛到任多久？應該快半年了嘛！"],["林局長文祥：9個月。"],["王委員定宇：9個月了嘛！"],["林局長文祥：是。"],["王委員定宇：來，我請教一下，剛才部長講有一千多家有興趣，到目前只核發12家，是卡在哪裡？"],["鄧司長克雄：報告委員，我是資源司司長。跟委員報告，其實透過我們的全球資訊網，還有我們舉辦的廠商說明會，我們都是積極地去鼓勵廠商來申請認證，但是因為我們國防的列管軍品是屬於關鍵模組以上的軍品，所以關鍵模組以下的另外有一個管道來參與……"],["王委員定宇：有列管的才有走這條路……"],["鄧司長克雄：對、對、對，所以……"],["王委員定宇：列管以下的都採購了。"],["鄧司長克雄：關鍵模組以上的廠商本來就有限，我們現在雖然有12家過，但是12家已經涵蓋了航太、造船及地面裝備，相關這些重要的、我們指標性的專案領域都能夠涵蓋，當然我們也希望它的家數越來越多……"],["王委員定宇：我是建議……"],["鄧司長克雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：部長，我最後一句話建議，第一個，我們要站在國軍最大的利益去思考，我們是一個buyer、我們是一個買方，賣方越競爭對我們是越好，所以軍品採購列管以上的走國防產業促進條例的相關認證，以下的當然就公開招標，認證除了能力，我認為資安一定要放進去，能力以外，怎麼樣讓它有這樣的競爭關係，這是一個政策的思考。另外，當我們對外採購的時候，現在很多都採軍售，有的採商售，一樣以buyer、以我們國防部的利益為優先，如果美方供應走軍售，因為卡到俄烏戰爭，一直delay的時候，你要去看它的那些品項，同樣的價格、一樣的品質要怎麼樣確保國軍得到比較好的，包含交貨時間、包含品質，都要給綜合的規劃，而不是死板板的綁在那裡，到最後我們國軍自己綁手綁腳，得利的是賣方，而不是買方，這個給部長做為建議，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：是，跟委員報告，這一定的，我們buyer最後一定是制人，而不能夠制於人……"],["王委員定宇：對。"],["邱部長國正：多重考量應該不會受制於人，這樣的話等於太愚蠢了。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":240,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","王定宇","徐巧芯","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林憶君","王鴻薇"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家\n科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132201_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"150715","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150715","tool":"pyannote","id":"150715-pyannote"},"job_id":"1AvztbELKBUtRdPl","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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00:00:41,923\n今年的漢光40號有沒有新的科目?\n\n4\n00:00:55,752 --> 00:01:10,100\n是設定的是10年後?都有我們今年設定的是當下的情況還是未來的情況?今年就針對當下的我們今年設定的是當下的情況以前有未來5年的裝備如何?底情會怎麼樣?預判\n\n5\n00:01:15,722 --> 00:01:39,607\n部長方便透露今年有沒有什麼新的科目?表示說我們國防部、我們軍中現在重視這個議題,我們把他納進去來看看我們整個兵推的狀況有沒有什麼改進的方法?國防委員報告這一定會有,但這個科目來源或者想哪邊強化這都算一個改變,但是改變不是,我覺得重要的就重要了現在環境的變遷,我們有一些科目加進來\n\n6\n00:01:40,467 --> 00:01:43,908\n我們在漢光裡面有沒有把這個放到我們設想的狀況裡面?\n\n7\n00:02:08,437 --> 00:02:35,379\n我認為這是必然的因為任何一個敵情的變化也就我們要設想定一個依據所以它一有變化我們當然會做個調整但是調整哪一個項目怎麼調整它的強度那就另外我們要做討論那今年的韓光我們的EWE我們現在一年期的EWE第一批已經下部隊了那個新訓結束了上次在兩棟山嶼那邊我看他們已經完訓了這一次有沒有用到他們\n\n8\n00:02:36,300 --> 00:03:04,536\n他只要有參與的話應該有參與到一些科目他只要他的職務有參與的那也一樣就參與了就算比較不熟因為我們在前兩年有特別把後備戰力把它編整我印象是編了一個砲兵營把它放到漢光38號還是39號來做驗證那我們今年不管是後備戰力或者我們現在新式的訓練或者是我們這一個EWE從四個月恢復為原來一年期\n\n9\n00:03:05,276 --> 00:03:23,044\n第一次的這個新訓已經下部隊的這一次漢光裡面他們有沒有什麼角色分兩個一個是電腦兵推一個實兵假如說他在這個實兵當中他的職務而這個部隊就要做一個實兵操演的單位的話他必然要參加\n\n10\n00:03:24,204 --> 00:03:52,094\n那至於以往講好像他這個有參與或刻意動員一個單位這也是可以做但要刻意動員的話也要符合我們曾經你說刻意就是我們把後備軍人召集之後召集一個單位就設定他要參加漢光這是一個方法有些人漢光定了以後剛好這時候有一個單位那今年有沒有這個情形把後備單獨編整一個單位應該也是會有那個白署長我們今年有嗎\n\n11\n00:03:52,794 --> 00:04:08,647\n有,我們每年的漢光實名演習都有配合同心的動員演習這沒有問題每年都在做今天動一個營還多少人我再跟您報告但是我們逐年都調整增加上一次動員我看的是砲兵兵科的\n\n12\n00:04:15,028 --> 00:04:29,892\n那今年有軍來觀摩的有沒有新增加一些盟友啦、自由民主聯盟的成員來觀察我們的、觀摩我們的這個漢光演習?我跟你們講以往這個觀摩等等都是在交流的範疇之一\n\n13\n00:04:31,132 --> 00:04:54,642\n那今年有什麼人數或者什麼變更我會拍得到因為美國從NDA還有一些法案通過之後法律上是允許他們的現役將領可以來台灣實質上當然這個還是保持低調有或沒有我們也不在那邊證實但我的意思是說今年的漢光40號有沒有印太司令部因為美軍現在4月10號\n\n14\n00:04:56,883 --> 00:05:18,728\n美國跟日本的安保條約可能會有改變那改成四星上將的指揮權直接放在日本包含峽下的沖繩阿等等那今年我們的漢光這個40號剛好是它在印太地區不管是編組啦指揮權啦各方面美軍其實有做了相當大的更新\n\n15\n00:05:20,236 --> 00:05:42,789\n今年有沒有印太司令部,他們的法律是允許的,他們印太司令部有沒有派現役的人來?我跟委員報告,每一年他漢光要做事,他要派什麼人來,之前都有協調過,一定會協調,所以他派哪些人來,我們只要知道了,都會跟委員做報告,但目前...你不方便講你可以不講了,我意思是說...我們要知道...\n\n16\n00:05:45,222 --> 00:05:58,891\n2plus2不管是美日、日本、印度、美國、印度、菲律賓、日本、美國這些高峰會裡面的前三名主題都有台海安全和和平穩定那都在講我們家的事情不太可能跟我們家都毫無聯繫嘛\n\n17\n00:06:00,672 --> 00:06:20,043\n那部隊就是你有想定你有計畫透過演練去確認計畫可不可行再進行修正他會有個過程所以漢光對台灣來講是年度重要的軍演那周邊國家關切的是台海和平穩定南海東海等等都在我們周邊所以\n\n18\n00:06:21,277 --> 00:06:30,523\n光用邏輯來想如果沒有這樣的觀摩跟互相的聯繫的話那是極度的空洞也危險所以我才會就叫部長說\n\n19\n00:06:32,287 --> 00:06:53,237\n今年的漢光40號因為印太司令部透過美國日本的元首高峰會要把駐日美軍從三星他是中將把提升到四星上將等等這個變動有沒有跟我們今年漢光40號他派人來的觀摩的規模內容等等有所不同有沒有不一樣的地方\n\n20\n00:06:54,124 --> 00:07:15,701\n他一個原則不會變,哪個單位人數多一點少一點但是會有,但是細節你們還要再談,時間也差不多了,其實應該以部隊作業來講我了解國軍其實蠻科學的,都會蠻提早就作業的不可能到現在還沒作業,如果不方便說我尊重,但是應該要有\n\n21\n00:07:16,261 --> 00:07:16,722\n今年會不會特別高?\n\n22\n00:07:29,874 --> 00:07:31,896\n那我接下來請教有關我們軍品這個驗證的問題那其他相關的就先請回\n\n23\n00:07:59,236 --> 00:08:20,755\n我們在三年多前大概四年前我們通過了國防產業促進條例在這個條例裡面我們為了建構我們的國防產業事實上國防產業對經濟是很重要的之前不久美國一個報告因為俄烏戰爭因為各地才發現戰備軍需不足無人載具的應用等等等等\n\n24\n00:08:21,255 --> 00:08:39,254\n所以他們推估到2027年到2029年全球的國防產業產值是遠高過電動汽車這個數字就很驚人所以臺灣中小企業國內的精密機械我們的IT我們的晶片臺灣在經濟上有我們的強項\n\n25\n00:08:41,016 --> 00:08:53,583\n所以我們在當時推動國防產業促進條例的時候裡面要建構我們的國防產業供應鏈那要建構要先看它的能耐你的能耐經過軍品驗證這些品項驗證了那未來我們採購是以驗證過的廠商為優先採購這是一套邏輯當時法的邏輯\n\n26\n00:09:03,048 --> 00:09:28,535\n這個法還有一些施行細則通過那麼久了目前我們公告的列管軍品清單有717項還在審議當中的有156項也就這些品項未來通過了我不管是陸海空軍我要採購這樣的零組件甲乙丙級的供應商他有驗證的我們就優先跟他採購那本席當時在質詢有提醒\n\n27\n00:09:29,813 --> 00:09:32,795\n我只能跟他買如果就一家一家驗證過他講10塊就10塊講100塊就100塊的話對買方也就對我們國軍是不利的\n\n28\n00:09:44,901 --> 00:10:05,363\n所以驗證它的程度達標了它的品質也達標了這個螺絲這個車頁這個砲管它達標了我們希望多幾家這樣才會產生雖然是符合軍品驗證的廠商但是它達標的廠商夠多也可以達到一定的競爭否則國防部會被綁死了所以現在\n\n29\n00:10:06,804 --> 00:10:23,405\n我們看到國防部核發就是說我們公告的公告要列管的軍品有717項結果你們現在廠商合格證的總共是12加89張部長你會不會擔心今天拿到合格證的就單一廠商\n\n30\n00:10:24,326 --> 00:10:48,179\n我這個不跟他買齁依法我一定只能跟他買我要跟他議價可是他因為就一家嘛有的真的就他會做那他賣過一天我也拿他沒皮條齁這個現象有沒有辦法改善多一些認證讓他產生一些競爭部長你怎麼看這個問題所以剛剛委員講的齁就是加數越多我們可以選擇的這個機率就當然那所以講那是目前\n\n31\n00:10:49,239 --> 00:11:03,559\n這是工作持續在進行的。據我目前了解,要參與國防工業共同發展的家數不多,已經有一千多家了。\n\n32\n00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:26,055\n一千多家,我們現在只發12張而已。參加說明會的有一千多家來參加。是品項還是?我們在說明會來參與的。來參與的一千多家。但參與代表他們有這個信心。有意願。我按照這個程序來一步一步,盡量讓他們能夠參與。我提醒部長,我們現在大概對媒採購是由戰規司。\n\n33\n00:11:28,297 --> 00:11:53,905\n武器國造是用軍備局我一直提醒軍備局就是在這個驗證上當然品質各方面的能力還有資安一定要達標但是另外一面我們要盡量去輔導同樣一個品項最好多幾家達標那多幾家達標之後才會產生競爭品質才會提升價格才會制衡否則我們只能跟他買我們現在規定只能跟他買又只有他達標\n\n34\n00:11:55,726 --> 00:11:56,247\n主席主席\n\n35\n00:12:19,881 --> 00:12:46,260\n是,報委員,我是資源室司長,跟大家跟委員報告,其實我們透過我們的全球資訊網,還有我們舉辦廠商說明會,我們都是積極的去鼓勵,去鼓勵廠商來升級認證,但是因為我們的國防那個列管軍品,它是屬於關鍵模組以上的一個軍品,所以它並關鍵模組以下,它另外有一個管道來採用。有列管的才有走這條路,列管以下的\n\n36\n00:12:46,340 --> 00:12:49,162\n我是建議,不然我最後一句話建議就是說第一個,我們要站在國軍最大的利益去思考,我們是一個buyer,我們是一個買方\n\n37\n00:13:12,297 --> 00:13:36,987\n賣方越競爭對我們是越好所以軍民採購列管以上的走這個國防產業促進條例的相關認證以下的當然就公開招標那認證除了能力啦我還知道資安一定要放進去能力以外怎麼樣讓他有這樣的競爭關係這是一個政策的思考另外當我們對外採購的時候我們現在很多都採軍售有的採商售\n\n38\n00:13:37,807 --> 00:13:37,947\n王定宇\n\n39\n00:14:04,813 --> 00:14:05,173\n給部長做建議\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n475\t1700\t好,謝謝主席,麻煩部長\n11240\t38360\t部長早我先跟您請教一下今年的漢光40號今年的漢光演習是先電腦兵推再實兵驗證我們好像前年還去年反過來那時候遇到疫情的關係我是不是可以請教一下今年有沒有跟以往不同的科目能不能讓納稅人了解就是說我們每一年不同的想定不同的科目大概都會根據台海的局勢做判斷\n39161\t41923\t今年的漢光40號有沒有新的科目?\n55752\t70100\t是設定的是10年後?都有我們今年設定的是當下的情況還是未來的情況?今年就針對當下的我們今年設定的是當下的情況以前有未來5年的裝備如何?底情會怎麼樣?預判\n75722\t99607\t部長方便透露今年有沒有什麼新的科目?表示說我們國防部、我們軍中現在重視這個議題,我們把他納進去來看看我們整個兵推的狀況有沒有什麼改進的方法?國防委員報告這一定會有,但這個科目來源或者想哪邊強化這都算一個改變,但是改變不是,我覺得重要的就重要了現在環境的變遷,我們有一些科目加進來\n100467\t103908\t我們在漢光裡面有沒有把這個放到我們設想的狀況裡面?\n128437\t155379\t我認為這是必然的因為任何一個敵情的變化也就我們要設想定一個依據所以它一有變化我們當然會做個調整但是調整哪一個項目怎麼調整它的強度那就另外我們要做討論那今年的韓光我們的EWE我們現在一年期的EWE第一批已經下部隊了那個新訓結束了上次在兩棟山嶼那邊我看他們已經完訓了這一次有沒有用到他們\n156300\t184536\t他只要有參與的話應該有參與到一些科目他只要他的職務有參與的那也一樣就參與了就算比較不熟因為我們在前兩年有特別把後備戰力把它編整我印象是編了一個砲兵營把它放到漢光38號還是39號來做驗證那我們今年不管是後備戰力或者我們現在新式的訓練或者是我們這一個EWE從四個月恢復為原來一年期\n185276\t203044\t第一次的這個新訓已經下部隊的這一次漢光裡面他們有沒有什麼角色分兩個一個是電腦兵推一個實兵假如說他在這個實兵當中他的職務而這個部隊就要做一個實兵操演的單位的話他必然要參加\n204204\t232094\t那至於以往講好像他這個有參與或刻意動員一個單位這也是可以做但要刻意動員的話也要符合我們曾經你說刻意就是我們把後備軍人召集之後召集一個單位就設定他要參加漢光這是一個方法有些人漢光定了以後剛好這時候有一個單位那今年有沒有這個情形把後備單獨編整一個單位應該也是會有那個白署長我們今年有嗎\n232794\t248647\t有,我們每年的漢光實名演習都有配合同心的動員演習這沒有問題每年都在做今天動一個營還多少人我再跟您報告但是我們逐年都調整增加上一次動員我看的是砲兵兵科的\n255028\t269892\t那今年有軍來觀摩的有沒有新增加一些盟友啦、自由民主聯盟的成員來觀察我們的、觀摩我們的這個漢光演習?我跟你們講以往這個觀摩等等都是在交流的範疇之一\n271132\t294642\t那今年有什麼人數或者什麼變更我會拍得到因為美國從NDA還有一些法案通過之後法律上是允許他們的現役將領可以來台灣實質上當然這個還是保持低調有或沒有我們也不在那邊證實但我的意思是說今年的漢光40號有沒有印太司令部因為美軍現在4月10號\n296883\t318728\t美國跟日本的安保條約可能會有改變那改成四星上將的指揮權直接放在日本包含峽下的沖繩阿等等那今年我們的漢光這個40號剛好是它在印太地區不管是編組啦指揮權啦各方面美軍其實有做了相當大的更新\n320236\t342789\t今年有沒有印太司令部,他們的法律是允許的,他們印太司令部有沒有派現役的人來?我跟委員報告,每一年他漢光要做事,他要派什麼人來,之前都有協調過,一定會協調,所以他派哪些人來,我們只要知道了,都會跟委員做報告,但目前...你不方便講你可以不講了,我意思是說...我們要知道...\n345222\t358891\t2plus2不管是美日、日本、印度、美國、印度、菲律賓、日本、美國這些高峰會裡面的前三名主題都有台海安全和和平穩定那都在講我們家的事情不太可能跟我們家都毫無聯繫嘛\n360672\t380043\t那部隊就是你有想定你有計畫透過演練去確認計畫可不可行再進行修正他會有個過程所以漢光對台灣來講是年度重要的軍演那周邊國家關切的是台海和平穩定南海東海等等都在我們周邊所以\n381277\t390523\t光用邏輯來想如果沒有這樣的觀摩跟互相的聯繫的話那是極度的空洞也危險所以我才會就叫部長說\n392287\t413237\t今年的漢光40號因為印太司令部透過美國日本的元首高峰會要把駐日美軍從三星他是中將把提升到四星上將等等這個變動有沒有跟我們今年漢光40號他派人來的觀摩的規模內容等等有所不同有沒有不一樣的地方\n414124\t435701\t他一個原則不會變,哪個單位人數多一點少一點但是會有,但是細節你們還要再談,時間也差不多了,其實應該以部隊作業來講我了解國軍其實蠻科學的,都會蠻提早就作業的不可能到現在還沒作業,如果不方便說我尊重,但是應該要有\n436261\t436722\t今年會不會特別高?\n449874\t451896\t那我接下來請教有關我們軍品這個驗證的問題那其他相關的就先請回\n479236\t500755\t我們在三年多前大概四年前我們通過了國防產業促進條例在這個條例裡面我們為了建構我們的國防產業事實上國防產業對經濟是很重要的之前不久美國一個報告因為俄烏戰爭因為各地才發現戰備軍需不足無人載具的應用等等等等\n501255\t519254\t所以他們推估到2027年到2029年全球的國防產業產值是遠高過電動汽車這個數字就很驚人所以臺灣中小企業國內的精密機械我們的IT我們的晶片臺灣在經濟上有我們的強項\n521016\t533583\t所以我們在當時推動國防產業促進條例的時候 裡面要建構我們的國防產業供應鏈那要建構要先看它的能耐 你的能耐經過軍品驗證 這些品項驗證了那未來我們採購是以驗證過的廠商為優先採購 這是一套邏輯 當時法的邏輯\n543048\t568535\t這個法還有一些施行細則通過那麼久了目前我們公告的列管軍品清單有717項還在審議當中的有156項也就這些品項未來通過了我不管是陸海空軍我要採購這樣的零組件甲乙丙級的供應商他有驗證的我們就優先跟他採購那本席當時在質詢有提醒\n569813\t572795\t我只能跟他買如果就一家一家驗證過他講10塊就10塊講100塊就100塊的話對買方也就對我們國軍是不利的\n584901\t605363\t所以驗證它的程度達標了它的品質也達標了這個螺絲這個車頁這個砲管它達標了我們希望多幾家這樣才會產生雖然是符合軍品驗證的廠商但是它達標的廠商夠多也可以達到一定的競爭否則國防部會被綁死了所以現在\n606804\t623405\t我們看到國防部核發就是說我們公告的公告要列管的軍品有717項結果你們現在廠商合格證的總共是12加89張部長你會不會擔心今天拿到合格證的就單一廠商\n624326\t648179\t我這個不跟他買齁依法我一定只能跟他買我要跟他議價可是他因為就一家嘛有的真的就他會做那他賣過一天我也拿他沒皮條齁這個現象有沒有辦法改善多一些認證讓他產生一些競爭部長你怎麼看這個問題所以剛剛委員講的齁就是加數越多我們可以選擇的這個機率就當然那所以講那是目前\n649239\t663559\t這是工作持續在進行的。據我目前了解,要參與國防工業共同發展的家數不多,已經有一千多家了。\n664720\t686055\t一千多家,我們現在只發12張而已。參加說明會的有一千多家來參加。是品項還是?我們在說明會來參與的。來參與的一千多家。但參與代表他們有這個信心。有意願。我按照這個程序來一步一步,盡量讓他們能夠參與。我提醒部長,我們現在大概對媒採購是由戰規司。\n688297\t713905\t武器國造是用軍備局我一直提醒軍備局就是在這個驗證上當然品質各方面的能力還有資安一定要達標但是另外一面我們要盡量去輔導同樣一個品項最好多幾家達標那多幾家達標之後才會產生競爭品質才會提升價格才會制衡否則我們只能跟他買我們現在規定只能跟他買又只有他達標\n715726\t716247\t主席主席\n739881\t766260\t是,報委員,我是資源室司長,跟大家跟委員報告,其實我們透過我們的全球資訊網,還有我們舉辦廠商說明會,我們都是積極的去鼓勵,去鼓勵廠商來升級認證,但是因為我們的國防那個列管軍品,它是屬於關鍵模組以上的一個軍品,所以它並關鍵模組以下,它另外有一個管道來採用。有列管的才有走這條路,列管以下的\n766340\t769162\t我是建議,不然我最後一句話建議就是說第一個,我們要站在國軍最大的利益去思考,我們是一個buyer,我們是一個買方\n792297\t816987\t賣方越競爭對我們是越好所以軍民採購列管以上的走這個國防產業促進條例的相關認證以下的當然就公開招標那認證除了能力啦我還知道資安一定要放進去能力以外怎麼樣讓他有這樣的競爭關係這是一個政策的思考另外當我們對外採購的時候我們現在很多都採軍售有的採商售\n817807\t817947\t王定宇\n844813\t845173\t給部長做建議\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席,麻煩部長\n部長早我先跟您請教一下今年的漢光40號今年的漢光演習是先電腦兵推再實兵驗證我們好像前年還去年反過來那時候遇到疫情的關係我是不是可以請教一下今年有沒有跟以往不同的科目能不能讓納稅人了解就是說我們每一年不同的想定不同的科目大概都會根據台海的局勢做判斷\n今年的漢光40號有沒有新的科目?\n是設定的是10年後?都有我們今年設定的是當下的情況還是未來的情況?今年就針對當下的我們今年設定的是當下的情況以前有未來5年的裝備如何?底情會怎麼樣?預判\n部長方便透露今年有沒有什麼新的科目?表示說我們國防部、我們軍中現在重視這個議題,我們把他納進去來看看我們整個兵推的狀況有沒有什麼改進的方法?國防委員報告這一定會有,但這個科目來源或者想哪邊強化這都算一個改變,但是改變不是,我覺得重要的就重要了現在環境的變遷,我們有一些科目加進來\n我們在漢光裡面有沒有把這個放到我們設想的狀況裡面?\n我認為這是必然的因為任何一個敵情的變化也就我們要設想定一個依據所以它一有變化我們當然會做個調整但是調整哪一個項目怎麼調整它的強度那就另外我們要做討論那今年的韓光我們的EWE我們現在一年期的EWE第一批已經下部隊了那個新訓結束了上次在兩棟山嶼那邊我看他們已經完訓了這一次有沒有用到他們\n他只要有參與的話應該有參與到一些科目他只要他的職務有參與的那也一樣就參與了就算比較不熟因為我們在前兩年有特別把後備戰力把它編整我印象是編了一個砲兵營把它放到漢光38號還是39號來做驗證那我們今年不管是後備戰力或者我們現在新式的訓練或者是我們這一個EWE從四個月恢復為原來一年期\n第一次的這個新訓已經下部隊的這一次漢光裡面他們有沒有什麼角色分兩個一個是電腦兵推一個實兵假如說他在這個實兵當中他的職務而這個部隊就要做一個實兵操演的單位的話他必然要參加\n那至於以往講好像他這個有參與或刻意動員一個單位這也是可以做但要刻意動員的話也要符合我們曾經你說刻意就是我們把後備軍人召集之後召集一個單位就設定他要參加漢光這是一個方法有些人漢光定了以後剛好這時候有一個單位那今年有沒有這個情形把後備單獨編整一個單位應該也是會有那個白署長我們今年有嗎\n有,我們每年的漢光實名演習都有配合同心的動員演習這沒有問題每年都在做今天動一個營還多少人我再跟您報告但是我們逐年都調整增加上一次動員我看的是砲兵兵科的\n那今年有軍來觀摩的有沒有新增加一些盟友啦、自由民主聯盟的成員來觀察我們的、觀摩我們的這個漢光演習?我跟你們講以往這個觀摩等等都是在交流的範疇之一\n那今年有什麼人數或者什麼變更我會拍得到因為美國從NDA還有一些法案通過之後法律上是允許他們的現役將領可以來台灣實質上當然這個還是保持低調有或沒有我們也不在那邊證實但我的意思是說今年的漢光40號有沒有印太司令部因為美軍現在4月10號\n美國跟日本的安保條約可能會有改變那改成四星上將的指揮權直接放在日本包含峽下的沖繩阿等等那今年我們的漢光這個40號剛好是它在印太地區不管是編組啦指揮權啦各方面美軍其實有做了相當大的更新\n今年有沒有印太司令部,他們的法律是允許的,他們印太司令部有沒有派現役的人來?我跟委員報告,每一年他漢光要做事,他要派什麼人來,之前都有協調過,一定會協調,所以他派哪些人來,我們只要知道了,都會跟委員做報告,但目前...你不方便講你可以不講了,我意思是說...我們要知道...\n2plus2不管是美日、日本、印度、美國、印度、菲律賓、日本、美國這些高峰會裡面的前三名主題都有台海安全和和平穩定那都在講我們家的事情不太可能跟我們家都毫無聯繫嘛\n那部隊就是你有想定你有計畫透過演練去確認計畫可不可行再進行修正他會有個過程所以漢光對台灣來講是年度重要的軍演那周邊國家關切的是台海和平穩定南海東海等等都在我們周邊所以\n光用邏輯來想如果沒有這樣的觀摩跟互相的聯繫的話那是極度的空洞也危險所以我才會就叫部長說\n今年的漢光40號因為印太司令部透過美國日本的元首高峰會要把駐日美軍從三星他是中將把提升到四星上將等等這個變動有沒有跟我們今年漢光40號他派人來的觀摩的規模內容等等有所不同有沒有不一樣的地方\n他一個原則不會變,哪個單位人數多一點少一點但是會有,但是細節你們還要再談,時間也差不多了,其實應該以部隊作業來講我了解國軍其實蠻科學的,都會蠻提早就作業的不可能到現在還沒作業,如果不方便說我尊重,但是應該要有\n今年會不會特別高?\n那我接下來請教有關我們軍品這個驗證的問題那其他相關的就先請回\n我們在三年多前大概四年前我們通過了國防產業促進條例在這個條例裡面我們為了建構我們的國防產業事實上國防產業對經濟是很重要的之前不久美國一個報告因為俄烏戰爭因為各地才發現戰備軍需不足無人載具的應用等等等等\n所以他們推估到2027年到2029年全球的國防產業產值是遠高過電動汽車這個數字就很驚人所以臺灣中小企業國內的精密機械我們的IT我們的晶片臺灣在經濟上有我們的強項\n所以我們在當時推動國防產業促進條例的時候 裡面要建構我們的國防產業供應鏈那要建構要先看它的能耐 你的能耐經過軍品驗證 這些品項驗證了那未來我們採購是以驗證過的廠商為優先採購 這是一套邏輯 當時法的邏輯\n這個法還有一些施行細則通過那麼久了目前我們公告的列管軍品清單有717項還在審議當中的有156項也就這些品項未來通過了我不管是陸海空軍我要採購這樣的零組件甲乙丙級的供應商他有驗證的我們就優先跟他採購那本席當時在質詢有提醒\n我只能跟他買如果就一家一家驗證過他講10塊就10塊講100塊就100塊的話對買方也就對我們國軍是不利的\n所以驗證它的程度達標了它的品質也達標了這個螺絲這個車頁這個砲管它達標了我們希望多幾家這樣才會產生雖然是符合軍品驗證的廠商但是它達標的廠商夠多也可以達到一定的競爭否則國防部會被綁死了所以現在\n我們看到國防部核發就是說我們公告的公告要列管的軍品有717項結果你們現在廠商合格證的總共是12加89張部長你會不會擔心今天拿到合格證的就單一廠商\n我這個不跟他買齁依法我一定只能跟他買我要跟他議價可是他因為就一家嘛有的真的就他會做那他賣過一天我也拿他沒皮條齁這個現象有沒有辦法改善多一些認證讓他產生一些競爭部長你怎麼看這個問題所以剛剛委員講的齁就是加數越多我們可以選擇的這個機率就當然那所以講那是目前\n這是工作持續在進行的。據我目前了解,要參與國防工業共同發展的家數不多,已經有一千多家了。\n一千多家,我們現在只發12張而已。參加說明會的有一千多家來參加。是品項還是?我們在說明會來參與的。來參與的一千多家。但參與代表他們有這個信心。有意願。我按照這個程序來一步一步,盡量讓他們能夠參與。我提醒部長,我們現在大概對媒採購是由戰規司。\n武器國造是用軍備局我一直提醒軍備局就是在這個驗證上當然品質各方面的能力還有資安一定要達標但是另外一面我們要盡量去輔導同樣一個品項最好多幾家達標那多幾家達標之後才會產生競爭品質才會提升價格才會制衡否則我們只能跟他買我們現在規定只能跟他買又只有他達標\n主席主席\n是,報委員,我是資源室司長,跟大家跟委員報告,其實我們透過我們的全球資訊網,還有我們舉辦廠商說明會,我們都是積極的去鼓勵,去鼓勵廠商來升級認證,但是因為我們的國防那個列管軍品,它是屬於關鍵模組以上的一個軍品,所以它並關鍵模組以下,它另外有一個管道來採用。有列管的才有走這條路,列管以下的\n我是建議,不然我最後一句話建議就是說第一個,我們要站在國軍最大的利益去思考,我們是一個buyer,我們是一個買方\n賣方越競爭對我們是越好所以軍民採購列管以上的走這個國防產業促進條例的相關認證以下的當然就公開招標那認證除了能力啦我還知道資安一定要放進去能力以外怎麼樣讓他有這樣的競爭關係這是一個政策的思考另外當我們對外採購的時候我們現在很多都採軍售有的採商售\n王定宇\n給部長做建議\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.475 --> 00:01.700\n好,謝謝主席,麻煩部長\n\n00:11.240 --> 00:38.360\n部長早我先跟您請教一下今年的漢光40號今年的漢光演習是先電腦兵推再實兵驗證我們好像前年還去年反過來那時候遇到疫情的關係我是不是可以請教一下今年有沒有跟以往不同的科目能不能讓納稅人了解就是說我們每一年不同的想定不同的科目大概都會根據台海的局勢做判斷\n\n00:39.161 --> 00:41.923\n今年的漢光40號有沒有新的科目?\n\n00:55.752 --> 01:10.100\n是設定的是10年後?都有我們今年設定的是當下的情況還是未來的情況?今年就針對當下的我們今年設定的是當下的情況以前有未來5年的裝備如何?底情會怎麼樣?預判\n\n01:15.722 --> 01:39.607\n部長方便透露今年有沒有什麼新的科目?表示說我們國防部、我們軍中現在重視這個議題,我們把他納進去來看看我們整個兵推的狀況有沒有什麼改進的方法?國防委員報告這一定會有,但這個科目來源或者想哪邊強化這都算一個改變,但是改變不是,我覺得重要的就重要了現在環境的變遷,我們有一些科目加進來\n\n01:40.467 --> 01:43.908\n我們在漢光裡面有沒有把這個放到我們設想的狀況裡面?\n\n02:08.437 --> 02:35.379\n我認為這是必然的因為任何一個敵情的變化也就我們要設想定一個依據所以它一有變化我們當然會做個調整但是調整哪一個項目怎麼調整它的強度那就另外我們要做討論那今年的韓光我們的EWE我們現在一年期的EWE第一批已經下部隊了那個新訓結束了上次在兩棟山嶼那邊我看他們已經完訓了這一次有沒有用到他們\n\n02:36.300 --> 03:04.536\n他只要有參與的話應該有參與到一些科目他只要他的職務有參與的那也一樣就參與了就算比較不熟因為我們在前兩年有特別把後備戰力把它編整我印象是編了一個砲兵營把它放到漢光38號還是39號來做驗證那我們今年不管是後備戰力或者我們現在新式的訓練或者是我們這一個EWE從四個月恢復為原來一年期\n\n03:05.276 --> 03:23.044\n第一次的這個新訓已經下部隊的這一次漢光裡面他們有沒有什麼角色分兩個一個是電腦兵推一個實兵假如說他在這個實兵當中他的職務而這個部隊就要做一個實兵操演的單位的話他必然要參加\n\n03:24.204 --> 03:52.094\n那至於以往講好像他這個有參與或刻意動員一個單位這也是可以做但要刻意動員的話也要符合我們曾經你說刻意就是我們把後備軍人召集之後召集一個單位就設定他要參加漢光這是一個方法有些人漢光定了以後剛好這時候有一個單位那今年有沒有這個情形把後備單獨編整一個單位應該也是會有那個白署長我們今年有嗎\n\n03:52.794 --> 04:08.647\n有,我們每年的漢光實名演習都有配合同心的動員演習這沒有問題每年都在做今天動一個營還多少人我再跟您報告但是我們逐年都調整增加上一次動員我看的是砲兵兵科的\n\n04:15.028 --> 04:29.892\n那今年有軍來觀摩的有沒有新增加一些盟友啦、自由民主聯盟的成員來觀察我們的、觀摩我們的這個漢光演習?我跟你們講以往這個觀摩等等都是在交流的範疇之一\n\n04:31.132 --> 04:54.642\n那今年有什麼人數或者什麼變更我會拍得到因為美國從NDA還有一些法案通過之後法律上是允許他們的現役將領可以來台灣實質上當然這個還是保持低調有或沒有我們也不在那邊證實但我的意思是說今年的漢光40號有沒有印太司令部因為美軍現在4月10號\n\n04:56.883 --> 05:18.728\n美國跟日本的安保條約可能會有改變那改成四星上將的指揮權直接放在日本包含峽下的沖繩阿等等那今年我們的漢光這個40號剛好是它在印太地區不管是編組啦指揮權啦各方面美軍其實有做了相當大的更新\n\n05:20.236 --> 05:42.789\n今年有沒有印太司令部,他們的法律是允許的,他們印太司令部有沒有派現役的人來?我跟委員報告,每一年他漢光要做事,他要派什麼人來,之前都有協調過,一定會協調,所以他派哪些人來,我們只要知道了,都會跟委員做報告,但目前...你不方便講你可以不講了,我意思是說...我們要知道...\n\n05:45.222 --> 05:58.891\n2plus2不管是美日、日本、印度、美國、印度、菲律賓、日本、美國這些高峰會裡面的前三名主題都有台海安全和和平穩定那都在講我們家的事情不太可能跟我們家都毫無聯繫嘛\n\n06:00.672 --> 06:20.043\n那部隊就是你有想定你有計畫透過演練去確認計畫可不可行再進行修正他會有個過程所以漢光對台灣來講是年度重要的軍演那周邊國家關切的是台海和平穩定南海東海等等都在我們周邊所以\n\n06:21.277 --> 06:30.523\n光用邏輯來想如果沒有這樣的觀摩跟互相的聯繫的話那是極度的空洞也危險所以我才會就叫部長說\n\n06:32.287 --> 06:53.237\n今年的漢光40號因為印太司令部透過美國日本的元首高峰會要把駐日美軍從三星他是中將把提升到四星上將等等這個變動有沒有跟我們今年漢光40號他派人來的觀摩的規模內容等等有所不同有沒有不一樣的地方\n\n06:54.124 --> 07:15.701\n他一個原則不會變,哪個單位人數多一點少一點但是會有,但是細節你們還要再談,時間也差不多了,其實應該以部隊作業來講我了解國軍其實蠻科學的,都會蠻提早就作業的不可能到現在還沒作業,如果不方便說我尊重,但是應該要有\n\n07:16.261 --> 07:16.722\n今年會不會特別高?\n\n07:29.874 --> 07:31.896\n那我接下來請教有關我們軍品這個驗證的問題那其他相關的就先請回\n\n07:59.236 --> 08:20.755\n我們在三年多前大概四年前我們通過了國防產業促進條例在這個條例裡面我們為了建構我們的國防產業事實上國防產業對經濟是很重要的之前不久美國一個報告因為俄烏戰爭因為各地才發現戰備軍需不足無人載具的應用等等等等\n\n08:21.255 --> 08:39.254\n所以他們推估到2027年到2029年全球的國防產業產值是遠高過電動汽車這個數字就很驚人所以臺灣中小企業國內的精密機械我們的IT我們的晶片臺灣在經濟上有我們的強項\n\n08:41.016 --> 08:53.583\n所以我們在當時推動國防產業促進條例的時候裡面要建構我們的國防產業供應鏈那要建構要先看它的能耐你的能耐經過軍品驗證這些品項驗證了那未來我們採購是以驗證過的廠商為優先採購這是一套邏輯當時法的邏輯\n\n09:03.048 --> 09:28.535\n這個法還有一些施行細則通過那麼久了目前我們公告的列管軍品清單有717項還在審議當中的有156項也就這些品項未來通過了我不管是陸海空軍我要採購這樣的零組件甲乙丙級的供應商他有驗證的我們就優先跟他採購那本席當時在質詢有提醒\n\n09:29.813 --> 09:32.795\n我只能跟他買如果就一家一家驗證過他講10塊就10塊講100塊就100塊的話對買方也就對我們國軍是不利的\n\n09:44.901 --> 10:05.363\n所以驗證它的程度達標了它的品質也達標了這個螺絲這個車頁這個砲管它達標了我們希望多幾家這樣才會產生雖然是符合軍品驗證的廠商但是它達標的廠商夠多也可以達到一定的競爭否則國防部會被綁死了所以現在\n\n10:06.804 --> 10:23.405\n我們看到國防部核發就是說我們公告的公告要列管的軍品有717項結果你們現在廠商合格證的總共是12加89張部長你會不會擔心今天拿到合格證的就單一廠商\n\n10:24.326 --> 10:48.179\n我這個不跟他買齁依法我一定只能跟他買我要跟他議價可是他因為就一家嘛有的真的就他會做那他賣過一天我也拿他沒皮條齁這個現象有沒有辦法改善多一些認證讓他產生一些競爭部長你怎麼看這個問題所以剛剛委員講的齁就是加數越多我們可以選擇的這個機率就當然那所以講那是目前\n\n10:49.239 --> 11:03.559\n這是工作持續在進行的。據我目前了解,要參與國防工業共同發展的家數不多,已經有一千多家了。\n\n11:04.720 --> 11:26.055\n一千多家,我們現在只發12張而已。參加說明會的有一千多家來參加。是品項還是?我們在說明會來參與的。來參與的一千多家。但參與代表他們有這個信心。有意願。我按照這個程序來一步一步,盡量讓他們能夠參與。我提醒部長,我們現在大概對媒採購是由戰規司。\n\n11:28.297 --> 11:53.905\n武器國造是用軍備局我一直提醒軍備局就是在這個驗證上當然品質各方面的能力還有資安一定要達標但是另外一面我們要盡量去輔導同樣一個品項最好多幾家達標那多幾家達標之後才會產生競爭品質才會提升價格才會制衡否則我們只能跟他買我們現在規定只能跟他買又只有他達標\n\n11:55.726 --> 11:56.247\n主席主席\n\n12:19.881 --> 12:46.260\n是,報委員,我是資源室司長,跟大家跟委員報告,其實我們透過我們的全球資訊網,還有我們舉辦廠商說明會,我們都是積極的去鼓勵,去鼓勵廠商來升級認證,但是因為我們的國防那個列管軍品,它是屬於關鍵模組以上的一個軍品,所以它並關鍵模組以下,它另外有一個管道來採用。有列管的才有走這條路,列管以下的\n\n12:46.340 --> 12:49.162\n我是建議,不然我最後一句話建議就是說第一個,我們要站在國軍最大的利益去思考,我們是一個buyer,我們是一個買方\n\n13:12.297 --> 13:36.987\n賣方越競爭對我們是越好所以軍民採購列管以上的走這個國防產業促進條例的相關認證以下的當然就公開招標那認證除了能力啦我還知道資安一定要放進去能力以外怎麼樣讓他有這樣的競爭關係這是一個政策的思考另外當我們對外採購的時候我們現在很多都採軍售有的採商售\n\n13:37.807 --> 13:37.947\n王定宇\n\n14:04.813 --> 14:05.173\n給部長做建議\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.475,"end":1.7,"text":"好,謝謝主席,麻煩部長"},{"start":11.24,"end":38.36,"text":"部長早我先跟您請教一下今年的漢光40號今年的漢光演習是先電腦兵推再實兵驗證我們好像前年還去年反過來那時候遇到疫情的關係我是不是可以請教一下今年有沒有跟以往不同的科目能不能讓納稅人了解就是說我們每一年不同的想定不同的科目大概都會根據台海的局勢做判斷"},{"start":39.161,"end":41.923,"text":"今年的漢光40號有沒有新的科目?"},{"start":55.752,"end":70.1,"text":"是設定的是10年後?都有我們今年設定的是當下的情況還是未來的情況?今年就針對當下的我們今年設定的是當下的情況以前有未來5年的裝備如何?底情會怎麼樣?預判"},{"start":75.722,"end":99.607,"text":"部長方便透露今年有沒有什麼新的科目?表示說我們國防部、我們軍中現在重視這個議題,我們把他納進去來看看我們整個兵推的狀況有沒有什麼改進的方法?國防委員報告這一定會有,但這個科目來源或者想哪邊強化這都算一個改變,但是改變不是,我覺得重要的就重要了現在環境的變遷,我們有一些科目加進來"},{"start":100.467,"end":103.908,"text":"我們在漢光裡面有沒有把這個放到我們設想的狀況裡面?"},{"start":128.437,"end":155.379,"text":"我認為這是必然的因為任何一個敵情的變化也就我們要設想定一個依據所以它一有變化我們當然會做個調整但是調整哪一個項目怎麼調整它的強度那就另外我們要做討論那今年的韓光我們的EWE我們現在一年期的EWE第一批已經下部隊了那個新訓結束了上次在兩棟山嶼那邊我看他們已經完訓了這一次有沒有用到他們"},{"start":156.3,"end":184.536,"text":"他只要有參與的話應該有參與到一些科目他只要他的職務有參與的那也一樣就參與了就算比較不熟因為我們在前兩年有特別把後備戰力把它編整我印象是編了一個砲兵營把它放到漢光38號還是39號來做驗證那我們今年不管是後備戰力或者我們現在新式的訓練或者是我們這一個EWE從四個月恢復為原來一年期"},{"start":185.276,"end":203.044,"text":"第一次的這個新訓已經下部隊的這一次漢光裡面他們有沒有什麼角色分兩個一個是電腦兵推一個實兵假如說他在這個實兵當中他的職務而這個部隊就要做一個實兵操演的單位的話他必然要參加"},{"start":204.204,"end":232.094,"text":"那至於以往講好像他這個有參與或刻意動員一個單位這也是可以做但要刻意動員的話也要符合我們曾經你說刻意就是我們把後備軍人召集之後召集一個單位就設定他要參加漢光這是一個方法有些人漢光定了以後剛好這時候有一個單位那今年有沒有這個情形把後備單獨編整一個單位應該也是會有那個白署長我們今年有嗎"},{"start":232.794,"end":248.647,"text":"有,我們每年的漢光實名演習都有配合同心的動員演習這沒有問題每年都在做今天動一個營還多少人我再跟您報告但是我們逐年都調整增加上一次動員我看的是砲兵兵科的"},{"start":255.028,"end":269.892,"text":"那今年有軍來觀摩的有沒有新增加一些盟友啦、自由民主聯盟的成員來觀察我們的、觀摩我們的這個漢光演習?我跟你們講以往這個觀摩等等都是在交流的範疇之一"},{"start":271.132,"end":294.642,"text":"那今年有什麼人數或者什麼變更我會拍得到因為美國從NDA還有一些法案通過之後法律上是允許他們的現役將領可以來台灣實質上當然這個還是保持低調有或沒有我們也不在那邊證實但我的意思是說今年的漢光40號有沒有印太司令部因為美軍現在4月10號"},{"start":296.883,"end":318.728,"text":"美國跟日本的安保條約可能會有改變那改成四星上將的指揮權直接放在日本包含峽下的沖繩阿等等那今年我們的漢光這個40號剛好是它在印太地區不管是編組啦指揮權啦各方面美軍其實有做了相當大的更新"},{"start":320.236,"end":342.789,"text":"今年有沒有印太司令部,他們的法律是允許的,他們印太司令部有沒有派現役的人來?我跟委員報告,每一年他漢光要做事,他要派什麼人來,之前都有協調過,一定會協調,所以他派哪些人來,我們只要知道了,都會跟委員做報告,但目前...你不方便講你可以不講了,我意思是說...我們要知道..."},{"start":345.222,"end":358.891,"text":"2plus2不管是美日、日本、印度、美國、印度、菲律賓、日本、美國這些高峰會裡面的前三名主題都有台海安全和和平穩定那都在講我們家的事情不太可能跟我們家都毫無聯繫嘛"},{"start":360.672,"end":380.043,"text":"那部隊就是你有想定你有計畫透過演練去確認計畫可不可行再進行修正他會有個過程所以漢光對台灣來講是年度重要的軍演那周邊國家關切的是台海和平穩定南海東海等等都在我們周邊所以"},{"start":381.277,"end":390.523,"text":"光用邏輯來想如果沒有這樣的觀摩跟互相的聯繫的話那是極度的空洞也危險所以我才會就叫部長說"},{"start":392.287,"end":413.237,"text":"今年的漢光40號因為印太司令部透過美國日本的元首高峰會要把駐日美軍從三星他是中將把提升到四星上將等等這個變動有沒有跟我們今年漢光40號他派人來的觀摩的規模內容等等有所不同有沒有不一樣的地方"},{"start":414.124,"end":435.701,"text":"他一個原則不會變,哪個單位人數多一點少一點但是會有,但是細節你們還要再談,時間也差不多了,其實應該以部隊作業來講我了解國軍其實蠻科學的,都會蠻提早就作業的不可能到現在還沒作業,如果不方便說我尊重,但是應該要有"},{"start":436.261,"end":436.722,"text":"今年會不會特別高?"},{"start":449.874,"end":451.896,"text":"那我接下來請教有關我們軍品這個驗證的問題那其他相關的就先請回"},{"start":479.236,"end":500.755,"text":"我們在三年多前大概四年前我們通過了國防產業促進條例在這個條例裡面我們為了建構我們的國防產業事實上國防產業對經濟是很重要的之前不久美國一個報告因為俄烏戰爭因為各地才發現戰備軍需不足無人載具的應用等等等等"},{"start":501.255,"end":519.254,"text":"所以他們推估到2027年到2029年全球的國防產業產值是遠高過電動汽車這個數字就很驚人所以臺灣中小企業國內的精密機械我們的IT我們的晶片臺灣在經濟上有我們的強項"},{"start":521.016,"end":533.583,"text":"所以我們在當時推動國防產業促進條例的時候 裡面要建構我們的國防產業供應鏈那要建構要先看它的能耐 你的能耐經過軍品驗證 這些品項驗證了那未來我們採購是以驗證過的廠商為優先採購 這是一套邏輯 當時法的邏輯"},{"start":543.048,"end":568.535,"text":"這個法還有一些施行細則通過那麼久了目前我們公告的列管軍品清單有717項還在審議當中的有156項也就這些品項未來通過了我不管是陸海空軍我要採購這樣的零組件甲乙丙級的供應商他有驗證的我們就優先跟他採購那本席當時在質詢有提醒"},{"start":569.813,"end":572.795,"text":"我只能跟他買如果就一家一家驗證過他講10塊就10塊講100塊就100塊的話對買方也就對我們國軍是不利的"},{"start":584.901,"end":605.363,"text":"所以驗證它的程度達標了它的品質也達標了這個螺絲這個車頁這個砲管它達標了我們希望多幾家這樣才會產生雖然是符合軍品驗證的廠商但是它達標的廠商夠多也可以達到一定的競爭否則國防部會被綁死了所以現在"},{"start":606.804,"end":623.405,"text":"我們看到國防部核發就是說我們公告的公告要列管的軍品有717項結果你們現在廠商合格證的總共是12加89張部長你會不會擔心今天拿到合格證的就單一廠商"},{"start":624.326,"end":648.179,"text":"我這個不跟他買齁依法我一定只能跟他買我要跟他議價可是他因為就一家嘛有的真的就他會做那他賣過一天我也拿他沒皮條齁這個現象有沒有辦法改善多一些認證讓他產生一些競爭部長你怎麼看這個問題所以剛剛委員講的齁就是加數越多我們可以選擇的這個機率就當然那所以講那是目前"},{"start":649.239,"end":663.559,"text":"這是工作持續在進行的。據我目前了解,要參與國防工業共同發展的家數不多,已經有一千多家了。"},{"start":664.72,"end":686.055,"text":"一千多家,我們現在只發12張而已。參加說明會的有一千多家來參加。是品項還是?我們在說明會來參與的。來參與的一千多家。但參與代表他們有這個信心。有意願。我按照這個程序來一步一步,盡量讓他們能夠參與。我提醒部長,我們現在大概對媒採購是由戰規司。"},{"start":688.297,"end":713.905,"text":"武器國造是用軍備局我一直提醒軍備局就是在這個驗證上當然品質各方面的能力還有資安一定要達標但是另外一面我們要盡量去輔導同樣一個品項最好多幾家達標那多幾家達標之後才會產生競爭品質才會提升價格才會制衡否則我們只能跟他買我們現在規定只能跟他買又只有他達標"},{"start":715.726,"end":716.247,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":739.881,"end":766.26,"text":"是,報委員,我是資源室司長,跟大家跟委員報告,其實我們透過我們的全球資訊網,還有我們舉辦廠商說明會,我們都是積極的去鼓勵,去鼓勵廠商來升級認證,但是因為我們的國防那個列管軍品,它是屬於關鍵模組以上的一個軍品,所以它並關鍵模組以下,它另外有一個管道來採用。有列管的才有走這條路,列管以下的"},{"start":766.34,"end":769.162,"text":"我是建議,不然我最後一句話建議就是說第一個,我們要站在國軍最大的利益去思考,我們是一個buyer,我們是一個買方"},{"start":792.297,"end":816.987,"text":"賣方越競爭對我們是越好所以軍民採購列管以上的走這個國防產業促進條例的相關認證以下的當然就公開招標那認證除了能力啦我還知道資安一定要放進去能力以外怎麼樣讓他有這樣的競爭關係這是一個政策的思考另外當我們對外採購的時候我們現在很多都採軍售有的採商售"},{"start":817.807,"end":817.947,"text":"王定宇"},{"start":844.813,"end":845.173,"text":"給部長做建議"}]}}}}