{"id":150721,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150721","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c01617b3e10894eb1191bc002822e084d0f8ba9b0039caa7a64d0750d4c0dcedb15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:18:52 - 10:31:42","影片長度":"00:12:50","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":770,"end_time":"2024-04-01T10:31:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T10:18:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":338,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時18分）謝謝主席，我想請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。很高興看到你今天在備詢臺上面，銷假上班，為了國家付出是值得肯定的。首先，我想要請問一下，今天王鴻薇委員有發一個新聞稿，他談到中科院過去在採購飛彈原物料的時候，承攬外購的一家公司叫做豐益公司，它所提供的原料「過氯酸銨」來自中國大陸，有這樣的疑似情形。請問一下，可不可以說明一下有沒有這樣的事？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，是不是請中科院回復？"],["徐委員巧芯：是，請說，中科院。"],["張院長忠誠：確實有這個情況。"],["徐委員巧芯：確實有這個情況。"],["張院長忠誠：是我們在110年的購案，111年它交貨的時候，9月我們就發現它裡面有……"],["徐委員巧芯：發現之後把它停權3年，對不對？"],["張院長忠誠：停權3年。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是還有案外案，就是被停權以後，它同一個地址，疑似親屬關係的久鼎聯合有限公司，還有同一位負責人的永冠應材有限公司，是不是還有繼續承攬國防部的案子？"],["趙主任亞平：委員好，我是國防採購室主任。是的，我們有清查，一個是久鼎，一個是永冠。確實從去年到今年，目前有承包十幾個案子。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那豐益被停權3年之後，是不是也繼續承攬國防部的案子？"],["趙主任亞平：據我們清查，有的，在停權之後有7案。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，知道了。部長，我這邊想要問，為什麼我們會讓有國安疑慮的廠商持續承攬國防部的生意？因為其實類似的狀況不是只有在國防部，在其他很多的部會裡面都有狀況，比如有一家A廠商，它發生問題之後被停權了，A廠商就用他的親戚朋友當人頭，然後在同一個地點設立公司，再持續來承包，這樣變成我們的處罰等於是沒有用處啊！這個到底是無法可管呢？還是我們在整個確認的過程當中太輕忽了，部長？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員講，無法可管還不至於，但在管理方法上，可能有遺漏，就是說已經限制了，它怎麼還會流進來？"],["徐委員巧芯：是啊。"],["邱部長國正：不管它假借什麼名義，所以這我要……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們要精進檢討，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：我請他說明一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，請簡單說明，我後面還有題目。"],["趙主任亞平：跟委員報告，它是被中科院停權，因為中科院是行政法人，它的自治條例裡面，採購的這部分不適用政府採購法，所以它被停權是……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有沒有黑名單？這樣會不會進黑名單？"],["趙主任亞平：中科院有管制。"],["徐委員巧芯：主要是中科院在這個情況發生之後，在其他國防部的採購裡面，該公司會不會被列為黑名單或是收到通知？大家就不要再跟它採購了嘛。"],["趙主任亞平：是，我們都有請中科院把這些黑名單提供給我們，我們會做管制。"],["徐委員巧芯：是以後才要做，還是過去本來就應該做，但卻沒有做呢？"],["趙主任亞平：過去沒有，但是我們會落實，從現在開始會落實。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，未來拜託，在這方面應該要精進、檢討、改善，要落實好嗎？"],["趙主任亞平：是，一定，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：我後面還有其他的題目，中科院請先回。部長，我想要問，最近發生中國大陸的無人機屢次進入我們金門營區拍攝，這個週末又傳出了二膽島遭空拍機攝錄的這個情況。我們可以看一下過去幾次，我大概先列了6次，或許不止喔！這是新聞有報導的大陸無人機騷擾我們國家離島的紀錄，可以看到過去有一陣子是用石頭丟，但是後來我們整個國防部精進之後，開始有相關的作為。我們先看一下這一次的事件，地點在二膽島，影片前面是一艘兩棲登陸艇送了彈藥上岸，臺階旁邊放的是彈藥箱，士兵正在從軍艦上面搬彈藥下來，請問為什麼當下沒有做任何的處置？"],["邱部長國正：是，我跟委員報告，剛才委員前面講了，一樣，就是經驗的累積，我們訂出很明確的方法。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["邱部長國正：所以我們也澈底檢討，嚴格講起來就訓練不足。"],["徐委員巧芯：訓練不足？"],["邱部長國正：對，我們會持續強化，我很坦誠。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，因為金門這邊的說法，本來是說因為遠距拍攝逆光，所以沒有發現。部長，您會認同這樣子的一個說法嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我絕對不認同，所以現在我跟幹部要求，假如你有錯就要改，但不要隱瞞，所以很多的事情一出來，又造成其他更大的一個錯誤，這是我們真的……"],["徐委員巧芯：是，我非常肯定部長現在的說法，因為這個說法跟我們看過的影片有落差，至少有兩名我們的士兵抬頭望向無人機的這個方位，所以您要告訴我們說他們都不知道的話，這個是大家比較難接受的，所以訓練不足是一個問題，其實部長過去已經有多次談到這樣的一個狀況，比如2023年10月你說反制無人機規定，有逾越的話，信號彈、該警告的，這邊彈藥就出去了。今年3月7號您也談到了，以前開槍、開砲是第一擊要反制，現在無人機也來了，我們把它打掉，我們不是第一擊，它才是第一擊，我們界定得很清楚。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：包含航空、海航、無人機、無人艦，有實體就要處理，處理原則還是一樣，該警告、喊話、打信號彈，讓對方知道我們已經注意到，這個要有應對的方法。我們要問的是，按照規定的處置作為，無人機防禦系統的建案作業112年獲裝以後，我們有優先配賦外島防區用，外島都有部署干擾槍，也可以併用7.62公厘以下的輕兵器，執行視距之內的應處。請問在這一點上面，我們這次沒有做到，要如何改進？"],["邱部長國正：這個跟委員報告，通盤檢討還是訓練不足，哪怕它沒有發，我都跟他講，你要列一個替代的方案，就是目的要達到，讓它的空拍機不能在我們上空，所以事實上當天我聽到金防部的回應，誠如剛剛委員講的，我就起疑，想說就算是陽光照，這個無人機也不是定點在這個地方，所以我就多加一個要更加強化的作法，就是不能光講不練，我會派國防部、陸軍司令部全程盯著這個訓練的每一個步驟，按照我們的要求，也有編組，如果沒有干擾槍，何況它有，如果有，你不見得要現場用，或者在哪一邊可以來做一個支持，信號彈不見得每一個人統統有，但你一發覺的時候，一通報，這個地方信號彈就會出去，這個動作不夠熟練的，我們要強化，給它步步到位。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，這部分一定要強化，而且要訓練，雖然它最後沒有造成實質上攻擊的狀態。"],["邱部長國正：瞭解。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是這個影片出去之後，對方用這種嘲諷跟羞辱的方式對待我們的國軍，我們也是非常看不下去的，甚至我們的士兵離開，彈藥箱就放在旁邊，也沒有任何人去做處理，這個事情也是相當地離譜，所以我們要求國防部在我們的這些外島，針對無人機來騷擾的狀況，整個SOP、整個訓練都要非常地清楚，因為這個從過去、從去年開始到現在，已經非常多次了，這樣子的情況發生到第6次，我們的處理竟然還是這種情況，我相信國人看到都會覺得非常地訝異，所以我想請部長再進一步說明，未來我們在這些教育訓練的檢討上面，你們有什麼樣的方針可以解決這樣子的一個問題？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，就以往經驗的累積，我已經做了一個很具體地說明，訓練是依據狀況來設定，就是說什麼狀況是由他們第一線以往的經驗來設定，不是由我們後方來講，像他們在前線，有無人機這一定有狀況，有狀況以後我要怎麼處理，我們本來有分工，連長怎麼做、副連長怎麼做、排長怎麼做，我們現在都有規定了，我絕對不是推給他們，這個問題就是癥結所在，有規定，他沒有照規定，或沒有演練。"],["徐委員巧芯：執行嘛！"],["邱部長國正：對，所以這一方面我跟委員保證，也跟我們各單位，我會繼續努力，一定把這個弄到定位為止。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，這部分一定要加油！我另外一個問題是，先前在不斷追查之下，我們才發現號稱天下第一營的憲兵211營，它的編現比只有67.8%，即便未來提高到72.2%，離我們一般期待的85%，還是少了很多，如果再扣掉休假官兵數字的話，那又不一樣了，再加上我們戰鬥部隊的編現比可能會更少。就你們提供的勤務表平均數字裡面的一個情況來看，就是現有的兵力每個連不到70人，我們如果再扣掉實際上還有10%的人請假、不在營內等等，這樣的人數是足夠的嗎？部長。"],["邱部長國正：我們現在針對這個案子也要核算，一個人不得超過每天三班，每一班一站有站二歇六，所以當初犯的錯誤在哪裡？他們變成彈性調整，因為今天要出去射擊，所以他們留少部分人來站衛兵造成的，這幾天我也特別在指揮所裡面或者在會議桌上跟他們強調，任務是不可改變的，規定你不要去變更，在這當中，作法有兩項：第一個，我們的兵源怎麼補充給它應急。第二個，你補充不要造成其他問題，從甲單位調幾個人到乙單位來，那乙單位解決了，甲單位問題又來了。"],["徐委員巧芯：這就是我接下來要問的事情，我們的憲兵營是不是要從5,600人擴編到1萬600人？"],["邱部長國正：目前還沒有……"],["徐委員巧芯：上次賴士葆委員質詢的時候，國防部回應說是這樣子的。"],["邱部長國正：對，沒有錯，但是它是分年的，不是馬上。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，這個最後是要分嘛！"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：那憲指部呢？這個應該新增的兵源是以義務役為主，但是因應擴編的人力，我們是不是也調了很多志願役的官兵去協助？會不會發生剛才部長講的這個情況？就是我們要因應新的義務役、憲兵擴編，包含261到264，總共有4個營要新增嘛，那我們可能從332、211、229、239跟238等等，調領導幹部去協助這個新的營區或新的連的需求，但他們也有很重要的勤務啊！如果這樣做的話，我們現在就連總統府的211編現比都只有62%，連站哨跟辦業務的人都不夠，那請問擴編之後的人力，根據現在規劃要怎麼樣補齊，才能在不影響原本業務還有其他營的業務狀況之下，維持整個憲兵的運作？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，所以剛剛為什麼一定要分年。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["邱部長國正：在遇到什麼問題以後，我們要解決，也不能造成其他問題的這種原則下，我們就要一步一步來落實。剛剛已經講了有人員調配，但是調配我也特別講了，不要用挖東牆補西牆的概念，造成其他問題，我們有經驗啦。像這幾年後備部隊調整，原本地區後備指揮部是沒有兵源，或者只有很少數兵源，我們也陸續調整，今年調整4個，明年調整4個，分年也可以調整到定位，絕對把握這原則，不會為了補救這個問題造成其他問題，這我們一定要強化。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，最後問一下，因為憲兵只有臺北的五個營兵有支領戰鬥加給，其他的憲兵隊沒有這個俸給，未來有沒有考慮提升。"],["邱部長國正：這個一定要考慮。"],["徐委員巧芯：一定要考慮嗎？簡單回答一下，好不好？戰鬥加給部分。"],["呂參謀長正芳：目前我們確實如委員所說，就只有這五個營有戰鬥加給，其他縣市憲兵隊的部分目前是沒有加給，我們也在積極爭取中。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們也會來支持，因為憲兵工作也相當的辛苦，如果未來要支應整個擴編的話，那相對應的戰鬥加給該給的應該要給，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在先宣告，目前我們收到臨時提案一案，待會兒林楚茵委員質詢結束以後進行處理，處理完畢休息5分鐘。","現在請洪申翰委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":240,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","王定宇","徐巧芯","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林憶君","王鴻薇"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家\n科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132201_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"150721","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150721","tool":"pyannote","id":"150721-pyannote"},"job_id":"tpNGCGLiJ183h91K","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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嚴格講起來就是訓練不足訓練不足對 我們會繼續講話因為呢 這個金門這邊的說法 本來是說因為遠距拍攝逆光 所以沒有發現部長您會認同這樣子的一個說法嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 253.151, \"end\": 253.211, \"score\": 0.684}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 253.211, \"end\": 253.231, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 253.231, \"end\": 253.331, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 253.331, \"end\": 253.471, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 253.471, \"end\": 253.671, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 253.671, \"end\": 254.251, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 254.251, \"end\": 254.431, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 254.431, \"end\": 254.772, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 254.772, \"end\": 254.912, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 254.912, \"end\": 255.352, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 255.352, \"end\": 256.412, \"score\": 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\"text\": \"我們就針對這案子也要核算一個人不得超過每天三班每一班一站有三兩歇六所以當初犯的錯誤在哪裡他們也變一個彈性調整因為今天要出去涉及所以我們留少部分人來做站位兵造成的那這幾天我也特別在指揮所裡面或者在會議桌裡我一直跟他們強調任務是不可改變的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 567.452, \"end\": 567.892, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 567.892, \"end\": 568.533, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 568.533, \"end\": 568.693, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 568.693, \"end\": 568.793, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 568.793, \"end\": 568.993, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 568.993, \"end\": 569.373, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 569.373, \"end\": 569.673, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 569.673, \"end\": 570.253, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 570.253, \"end\": 570.494, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 570.494, \"end\": 570.694, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": 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\"就是說我們要因應新的義務役然後我們的憲兵擴編所以我們必須從包含是261到264總共4個營要新增嘛那我們可能從包含332、211、229跟239、238等等他們也有很重要的勤務啊去調我們的領導幹部去協助這個新的營區或新的連的需求\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 639.625, \"end\": 639.645, \"score\": 0.005}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 639.645, \"end\": 639.765, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 639.765, \"end\": 639.925, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 639.925, \"end\": 640.106, \"score\": 0.631}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 640.106, \"end\": 640.526, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 640.526, \"end\": 640.746, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 640.746, \"end\": 640.926, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"役\", \"start\": 640.926, \"end\": 641.467, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 641.467, \"end\": 641.607, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 641.607, \"end\": 641.747, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"我\", 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\"營\"}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 643.869, \"end\": 643.989, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 643.989, \"end\": 644.009, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 644.009, \"end\": 644.029, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 644.029, \"end\": 644.069, \"score\": 0.233}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 644.069, \"end\": 644.129, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 644.129, \"end\": 644.149, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 663.226, \"end\": 667.29, \"text\": \"那如果這樣做的話我們現在就連總統府的211邊線比都只有62%連站哨跟辦業務的人都不夠那請問這樣子我們擴編之後的人力我們現在規劃要怎麼樣補齊才能在不影響原本業務還有呢是其他營的業務的狀況之下那維持整個憲兵的運作\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 663.226, \"end\": 663.386, \"score\": 0.696}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 663.386, \"end\": 663.526, \"score\": 0.564}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 663.526, \"end\": 663.546, \"score\": 0.218}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 663.546, \"end\": 663.626, \"score\": 0.75}, 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\"end\": 765.61, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,512 --> 00:00:00,995\n邱國正、經濟部次長報告\n\n2\n00:00:13,499 --> 00:00:41,111\n徐委員好委員好很高興看到你今天在備詢談上面銷價上班為了國家付出是值得肯定的那我首先呢想要請問一下今天呢王洪威委員他有發一個新聞稿他談到呢中科院過去在採購飛彈原物料的時候那全欄外購的一家公司叫做豐益公司他所提供的原料過濾酸胺來自中國大陸有這樣的疑似情形請問一下可不可以說明一下有沒有這樣的事\n\n3\n00:00:41,431 --> 00:01:04,378\n我跟委員講那是請中科院您了解是吧是請說來中科院確實有這個情況確實有這個情況我們在110年的公案111年他交貨的時候9月我們就發現他發現之後把他停存三年嘛對不對停存三年但是還有按外案就是被停存以後他同一個地址\n\n4\n00:01:04,778 --> 00:01:33,931\n移世親屬關係的九鼎聯合有限公司還有他有同一位負責人的永冠印柴有限公司是不是還有繼續承攬國防部的案子委員好我是國防採購室主任是的我們有清查一個是九鼎一個是永冠確實在從去年到今年目前都有十幾個案子那瘋疫被停權三年之後是不是也繼續承攬國防部的案子\n\n5\n00:01:34,876 --> 00:01:54,797\n我們清查有的在停權之後有期案知道了那部長我這邊想要問說為什麼我們會讓有國安疑慮的廠商持續承攬國防部的生意因為其實類似的狀況不是只有在國防部在其他很多的部會裡面都有狀況就比如說有一家A廠商那他有問題之後被停權了\n\n6\n00:01:55,598 --> 00:01:56,658\n那這個到底是無法可管呢還是我們在整個確認過程當中太輕忽了部長\n\n7\n00:02:12,685 --> 00:02:27,484\n我跟委員講無法可管不至於但在管理的方法可能當然又有遺漏就是說已經限制他怎麼還會流進來不管他假借什麼名義所以這我要我請你們瞭解不瞭解好不好你們要精進檢討來請簡單說明後面還有題目\n\n8\n00:02:31,189 --> 00:02:47,927\n他是被中科院所停權因為中科院是行政法人他政治條例裡面他的採購這部分他不是用政府採購法所以說他都被停權你們有沒有黑名單嗎?這樣會不會進黑名單?中科院有管制\n\n9\n00:02:48,467 --> 00:02:49,828\n是以後才要做還是過去本來就應該做但卻沒有做呢?\n\n10\n00:03:10,123 --> 00:03:22,327\n過去沒有但是我們會落實所以未來拜託在這方面應該要精進檢討改善要落實好嗎我後面有其他的題目中科院請先回那部長我想要問最近這個週末發生這個有談到中國大陸的這個無人機那屢次進入我們金門營區來拍攝過去那又傳出了這個二膽島遭空拍機射入的這個情況\n\n11\n00:03:35,552 --> 00:04:00,493\n我們可以看一下過去幾次其實我大概先列了6次或許不止這是新聞有報導的大陸無人機騷擾我們國家離島的這個記錄可以看到過去有一陣子是用石頭丟但後來我們整個國防部精進之後開始我們有相關的作為我們先看一下這次的事件地點在二膽島影片前面是一艘兩棲登陸艇送了彈藥上岸\n\n12\n00:04:02,955 --> 00:04:04,057\n為什麼當下沒有做任何的處置?\n\n13\n00:04:13,151 --> 00:04:27,676\n所以我跟委員報告剛才委員前面講的經驗累積我們定出一個很明確的方法所以這我也徹底檢討嚴格講起來就是訓練不足訓練不足對我們會繼續講話因為呢這個金門這邊的說法本來是說因為遠距拍攝逆光所以沒有發現部長您會認同這樣子的一個說法嗎\n\n14\n00:04:35,239 --> 00:04:43,584\n我非常肯定部長現在的說法因為這個說法跟我們看過影片來講有落差啊因為至少有兩名我們的士兵他有抬頭望向無人機的這個方位所以您要告訴我們說他們都不知道的話這個是大家比較難接受的\n\n15\n00:05:03,996 --> 00:05:18,367\n所以訓練不足是一個問題因為其實部長您已經過去多次有談到這樣的一個狀況比如2023年10月你說反制無人軍有規定有預約的話信號彈該警告這邊彈藥就出去了今年3月7號您也談到了\n\n16\n00:05:20,208 --> 00:05:40,951\n以前開槍開炮是第一集要反制現在無人機也來了我們把他打掉我們不是第一集他才是第一集我們把界定看得很清楚包含航空海航無人機無人艦有實體就要處理處理原則還是一樣該警告喊話打信號彈讓對方知道我們已經注意到這個要有應對的方法\n\n17\n00:05:41,311 --> 00:06:03,338\n那我們要問的是按照規定的處置作為無人機防禦系統的建安作業112年貨裝以後我們有優先配附外島區的防用那這個外島都有配干擾槍部署也可以並用7.62公里以下的輕兵器實行試劇之內的應處請問在這點上面我們這次沒有做到要如何改進\n\n18\n00:06:04,264 --> 00:06:32,443\n所以各位報告,通盤檢討還是訓練不足他有沒有,哪怕沒有發,我也都跟他講你要練一個替代的一個方案就目的要達到,讓他空拍機不能再往上空所以我今天昨天接到的狀況,事實上當天啦我聽到經防部的回應,就剛剛陳福光委員講的嘛我就起疑,我想說就算這個陽光照他無人機不是定點在這個地方啊\n\n19\n00:06:33,143 --> 00:06:53,923\n所以我就再得到一個多加一個要更加強化的做法就是不能光講不練我會派國防部陸軍司令部全程把他盯到這個訓練的一個步調按照我們的要求有編組如果沒有干擾強何況他有如果有為什麼要\n\n20\n00:06:55,225 --> 00:06:55,905\n這部分一定要強化而且要訓練\n\n21\n00:07:12,541 --> 00:07:32,070\n因為最後雖然他沒有造成我們實質上說有對方有攻擊可是這個影片出去之後對方用這種嘲諷跟羞辱的方式對待我們的國軍我們看了之後也是非常看不下去的甚至我們的士兵離開那彈藥箱就放在旁邊也沒有任何人去做處理這個事情也是相當的離譜\n\n22\n00:07:32,990 --> 00:07:47,426\n所以我們要要求國防部在我們的這些外導針對無人機來騷擾的過程當中整個SOP整個訓練要非常的清楚因為這個從過去去年開始到現在已經非常多次了\n\n23\n00:07:48,007 --> 00:08:03,449\n現在發生了這樣子到第6次竟然我們的處理還是這種情況我相信國人看到都會覺得非常的訝異所以我想請部長再進一步做一下說明我們未來在這些教育訓練檢討上面你們有什麼樣的方針可以解決這樣子的一個問題\n\n24\n00:08:04,090 --> 00:08:27,763\n我跟委員報告,就以往經驗累積我已經做一個很具體的說明,就是你狀況設定訓練是依據狀況來設定以後,就是什麼狀況由第一線他們的以往經驗來設定,不是往後方來講,像大家在前線有無人機這一定狀況,這有狀況以後我要怎麼處理,處理文牌有分工,聯長怎麼做,副聯長怎麼做,排長怎麼做,好\n\n25\n00:08:28,303 --> 00:08:44,306\n我們家都有規定,但我覺得推給他們,這問題就是癥結所在,有規定他們沒有照規定或沒有決定,所以我在這方面我跟委員保證,也跟我們各單位我會去努力把這一定給弄到定位為止\n\n26\n00:08:44,807 --> 00:08:59,672\n好這部分一定要加油那呢我們另外一個問題是先前在不斷追查之下我們才發現號稱天下第一營的憲兵211營它的邊線比只有67.8%那即便未來提到72.2%離我們一般期待的85%還是少了很多\n\n27\n00:09:04,153 --> 00:09:24,884\n如果再扣掉休假官兵數字的話那又不一樣再加上我們的戰鬥部隊的邊線比可能會更少那就你們所提供的勤務表的平均數字裡面一個情況就是現有兵力每個連不到70人那我們如果再扣掉實際上還有百分之10的人請假等等的不在營內這樣的人數是足夠的嗎部長\n\n28\n00:09:27,452 --> 00:09:51,585\n我們就針對這案子也要核算一個人不得超過每天三班每一班一站有三兩歇六所以當初犯的錯誤在哪裡他們也變一個彈性調整因為今天要出去涉及所以我們留少部分人來做站位兵造成的那這幾天我也特別在指揮所裡面或者在會議桌裡我一直跟他們強調任務是不可改變的\n\n29\n00:09:52,445 --> 00:10:11,817\n規定你不要去變更在這個做法當中有兩項第一個我們必然補充給他應急第二個你補充不要造成其他問題從假單位掉幾個單位到乙單位來乙單位解決假單位問題又來這就是我接下來要問的事情就是說我們的憲兵營是不是要從5600人擴編到10600人\n\n30\n00:10:15,479 --> 00:10:37,104\n目前還沒有那個上次那個賴世保委員質詢的時候國防部的回應說是這樣子的對沒有錯但是他分年的對對對這個是最後我們要分碼號那縣指部呢這個應該新增的兵員是以義務役為主嘛但是因應擴編的人力我們是不是也調了很多的志願的役的官兵去協助會不會發生剛才部長您講的這個情況\n\n31\n00:10:39,625 --> 00:10:44,149\n就是說我們要因應新的義務役然後我們的憲兵擴編所以我們必須從包含是261到264總共4個營要新增嘛那我們可能從包含332、211、229跟239、238等等他們也有很重要的勤務啊去調我們的領導幹部去協助這個新的營區或新的連的需求\n\n32\n00:11:03,226 --> 00:11:07,290\n那如果這樣做的話我們現在就連總統府的211邊線比都只有62%連站哨跟辦業務的人都不夠那請問這樣子我們擴編之後的人力我們現在規劃要怎麼樣補齊才能在不影響原本業務還有呢是其他營的業務的狀況之下那維持整個憲兵的運作\n\n33\n00:11:25,686 --> 00:11:43,644\n我跟委員報告,所以剛才我已經分臉了在遇到什麼問題以後不要解決也不能造成其他問題的這個狀況下這種原則下我們就要一步一步來落實剛剛你講的由這個人員調配調配我也特別講你不要把這個東牆補西牆的概念造成其他問題\n\n34\n00:11:45,486 --> 00:12:01,323\n我們有經驗,像這幾年做後備部隊調整,原本第一區後備指揮部是沒有兵員的,或者很少做兵員,我們也要陸續調整今年調整四個,明年調整四個,分年也可以調整到定位,絕對把握原則,不會把問題\n\n35\n00:12:03,866 --> 00:12:28,172\n為了補救這個問題造成其他問題這我們一定要強化最後問一下因為我們憲兵只有台北的五個營兵他們有這個支領戰鬥家級我們五個營而已那其他的憲兵隊的部分沒有這個縫擠那未來有沒有考慮做提升這個一定要考慮一定要考慮嗎那簡單回答一下好不好戰鬥家級部分\n\n36\n00:12:28,869 --> 00:12:45,610\n目前我們現在就是確實如委員所說就這個五個營有戰鬥佳績那我們其他是憲兵隊的部分目前是沒有佳績那我們也在爭取中好我們也會來支持好不好因為憲兵工作也相當的辛苦那如果未來要支應整個的擴編的話那相對應的戰鬥佳績該給的應該要給謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n512\t995\t邱國正、經濟部次長報告\n13499\t41111\t徐委員好委員好很高興看到你今天在備詢談上面銷價上班為了國家付出是值得肯定的那我首先呢想要請問一下今天呢王洪威委員他有發一個新聞稿他談到呢中科院過去在採購飛彈原物料的時候那全欄外購的一家公司叫做豐益公司他所提供的原料過濾酸胺來自中國大陸有這樣的疑似情形請問一下可不可以說明一下有沒有這樣的事\n41431\t64378\t我跟委員講 那是請中科院您了解是吧是 請說 來中科院確實有這個情況確實有這個情況我們在110年的公案111年他交貨的時候9月我們就發現他發現之後把他停存三年嘛對不對停存三年但是還有按外案就是被停存以後他同一個地址\n64778\t93931\t移世親屬關係的九鼎聯合有限公司還有他有同一位負責人的永冠印柴有限公司是不是還有繼續承攬國防部的案子委員好我是國防採購室主任是的我們有清查一個是九鼎一個是永冠確實在從去年到今年目前都有十幾個案子那瘋疫被停權三年之後是不是也繼續承攬國防部的案子\n94876\t114797\t我們清查有的在停權之後有期案知道了那部長我這邊想要問說為什麼我們會讓有國安疑慮的廠商持續承攬國防部的生意因為其實類似的狀況不是只有在國防部在其他很多的部會裡面都有狀況就比如說有一家A廠商那他有問題之後被停權了\n115598\t116658\t那這個到底是無法可管呢還是我們在整個確認過程當中太輕忽了部長\n132685\t147484\t我跟委員講無法可管不至於但在管理的方法可能當然又有遺漏就是說已經限制他怎麼還會流進來不管他假借什麼名義所以這我要我請你們瞭解不瞭解好不好你們要精進檢討來請簡單說明後面還有題目\n151189\t167927\t他是被中科院所停權因為中科院是行政法人他政治條例裡面他的採購這部分他不是用政府採購法所以說他都被停權你們有沒有黑名單嗎?這樣會不會進黑名單?中科院有管制\n168467\t169828\t是以後才要做還是過去本來就應該做但卻沒有做呢?\n190123\t202327\t過去沒有但是我們會落實所以未來拜託在這方面應該要精進檢討改善要落實好嗎我後面有其他的題目中科院請先回那部長我想要問最近這個週末發生這個有談到中國大陸的這個無人機那屢次進入我們金門營區來拍攝過去那又傳出了這個二膽島遭空拍機射入的這個情況\n215552\t240493\t我們可以看一下過去幾次其實我大概先列了6次或許不止這是新聞有報導的大陸無人機騷擾我們國家離島的這個記錄可以看到過去有一陣子是用石頭丟但後來我們整個國防部精進之後開始我們有相關的作為我們先看一下這次的事件地點在二膽島影片前面是一艘兩棲登陸艇送了彈藥上岸\n242955\t244057\t為什麼當下沒有做任何的處置?\n253151\t267676\t所以我跟委員報告 剛才委員前面講的經驗累積 我們定出一個很明確的方法所以這我也徹底檢討 嚴格講起來就是訓練不足訓練不足對 我們會繼續講話因為呢 這個金門這邊的說法 本來是說因為遠距拍攝逆光 所以沒有發現部長您會認同這樣子的一個說法嗎\n275239\t283584\t我非常肯定部長現在的說法因為這個說法跟我們看過影片來講有落差啊因為至少有兩名我們的士兵他有抬頭望向無人機的這個方位所以您要告訴我們說他們都不知道的話這個是大家比較難接受的\n303996\t318367\t所以訓練不足是一個問題因為其實部長您已經過去多次有談到這樣的一個狀況比如2023年10月你說反制無人軍有規定有預約的話信號彈該警告這邊彈藥就出去了今年3月7號您也談到了\n320208\t340951\t以前開槍開炮是第一集要反制現在無人機也來了我們把他打掉我們不是第一集他才是第一集我們把界定看得很清楚包含航空海航無人機無人艦有實體就要處理處理原則還是一樣該警告喊話打信號彈讓對方知道我們已經注意到這個要有應對的方法\n341311\t363338\t那我們要問的是按照規定的處置作為無人機防禦系統的建安作業112年貨裝以後我們有優先配附外島區的防用那這個外島都有配干擾槍部署也可以並用7.62公里以下的輕兵器實行試劇之內的應處請問在這點上面我們這次沒有做到要如何改進\n364264\t392443\t所以各位報告,通盤檢討還是訓練不足他有沒有,哪怕沒有發,我也都跟他講你要練一個替代的一個方案就目的要達到,讓他空拍機不能再往上空所以我今天昨天接到的狀況,事實上當天啦我聽到經防部的回應,就剛剛陳福光委員講的嘛我就起疑,我想說就算這個陽光照他無人機不是定點在這個地方啊\n393143\t413923\t所以我就再得到一個多加一個要更加強化的做法就是不能光講不練我會派國防部陸軍司令部全程把他盯到這個訓練的一個步調按照我們的要求有編組如果沒有干擾強何況他有如果有為什麼要\n415225\t415905\t這部分一定要強化而且要訓練\n432541\t452070\t因為最後雖然他沒有造成我們實質上說有對方有攻擊可是這個影片出去之後對方用這種嘲諷跟羞辱的方式對待我們的國軍我們看了之後也是非常看不下去的甚至我們的士兵離開那彈藥箱就放在旁邊也沒有任何人去做處理這個事情也是相當的離譜\n452990\t467426\t所以我們要要求國防部在我們的這些外導針對無人機來騷擾的過程當中整個SOP整個訓練要非常的清楚因為這個從過去去年開始到現在已經非常多次了\n468007\t483449\t現在發生了這樣子到第6次竟然我們的處理還是這種情況我相信國人看到都會覺得非常的訝異所以我想請部長再進一步做一下說明我們未來在這些教育訓練檢討上面你們有什麼樣的方針可以解決這樣子的一個問題\n484090\t507763\t我跟委員報告,就以往經驗累積我已經做一個很具體的說明,就是你狀況設定訓練是依據狀況來設定以後,就是什麼狀況由第一線他們的以往經驗來設定,不是往後方來講,像大家在前線有無人機這一定狀況,這有狀況以後我要怎麼處理,處理文牌有分工,聯長怎麼做,副聯長怎麼做,排長怎麼做,好\n508303\t524306\t我們家都有規定,但我覺得推給他們,這問題就是癥結所在,有規定他們沒有照規定或沒有決定,所以我在這方面我跟委員保證,也跟我們各單位我會去努力把這一定給弄到定位為止\n524807\t539672\t好 這部分一定要加油那呢 我們另外一個問題是先前在不斷追查之下我們才發現號稱天下第一營的憲兵211營它的邊線比只有67.8%那即便未來提到72.2%離我們一般期待的85%還是少了很多\n544153\t564884\t如果再扣掉休假官兵數字的話那又不一樣再加上我們的戰鬥部隊的邊線比可能會更少那就你們所提供的勤務表的平均數字裡面一個情況就是現有兵力每個連不到70人那我們如果再扣掉實際上還有百分之10的人請假等等的不在營內這樣的人數是足夠的嗎部長\n567452\t591585\t我們就針對這案子也要核算一個人不得超過每天三班每一班一站有三兩歇六所以當初犯的錯誤在哪裡他們也變一個彈性調整因為今天要出去涉及所以我們留少部分人來做站位兵造成的那這幾天我也特別在指揮所裡面或者在會議桌裡我一直跟他們強調任務是不可改變的\n592445\t611817\t規定你不要去變更在這個做法當中有兩項第一個我們必然補充給他應急第二個你補充不要造成其他問題從假單位掉幾個單位到乙單位來乙單位解決假單位問題又來這就是我接下來要問的事情就是說我們的憲兵營是不是要從5600人擴編到10600人\n615479\t637104\t目前還沒有那個上次那個賴世保委員質詢的時候國防部的回應說是這樣子的對沒有錯但是他分年的對對對這個是最後我們要分碼號那縣指部呢這個應該新增的兵員是以義務役為主嘛但是因應擴編的人力我們是不是也調了很多的志願的役的官兵去協助會不會發生剛才部長您講的這個情況\n639625\t644149\t就是說我們要因應新的義務役然後我們的憲兵擴編所以我們必須從包含是261到264總共4個營要新增嘛那我們可能從包含332、211、229跟239、238等等他們也有很重要的勤務啊去調我們的領導幹部去協助這個新的營區或新的連的需求\n663226\t667290\t那如果這樣做的話我們現在就連總統府的211邊線比都只有62%連站哨跟辦業務的人都不夠那請問這樣子我們擴編之後的人力我們現在規劃要怎麼樣補齊才能在不影響原本業務還有呢是其他營的業務的狀況之下那維持整個憲兵的運作\n685686\t703644\t我跟委員報告,所以剛才我已經分臉了在遇到什麼問題以後不要解決也不能造成其他問題的這個狀況下這種原則下我們就要一步一步來落實剛剛你講的由這個人員調配調配我也特別講你不要把這個東牆補西牆的概念造成其他問題\n705486\t721323\t我們有經驗,像這幾年做後備部隊調整,原本第一區後備指揮部是沒有兵員的,或者很少做兵員,我們也要陸續調整今年調整四個,明年調整四個,分年也可以調整到定位,絕對把握原則,不會把問題\n723866\t748172\t為了補救這個問題造成其他問題這我們一定要強化最後問一下因為我們憲兵只有台北的五個營兵他們有這個支領戰鬥家級我們五個營而已那其他的憲兵隊的部分沒有這個縫擠那未來有沒有考慮做提升這個一定要考慮一定要考慮嗎那簡單回答一下好不好戰鬥家級部分\n748869\t765610\t目前我們現在就是確實如委員所說就這個五個營有戰鬥佳績那我們其他是憲兵隊的部分目前是沒有佳績那我們也在爭取中好我們也會來支持好不好因為憲兵工作也相當的辛苦那如果未來要支應整個的擴編的話那相對應的戰鬥佳績該給的應該要給謝謝\n","txt":"邱國正、經濟部次長報告\n徐委員好委員好很高興看到你今天在備詢談上面銷價上班為了國家付出是值得肯定的那我首先呢想要請問一下今天呢王洪威委員他有發一個新聞稿他談到呢中科院過去在採購飛彈原物料的時候那全欄外購的一家公司叫做豐益公司他所提供的原料過濾酸胺來自中國大陸有這樣的疑似情形請問一下可不可以說明一下有沒有這樣的事\n我跟委員講 那是請中科院您了解是吧是 請說 來中科院確實有這個情況確實有這個情況我們在110年的公案111年他交貨的時候9月我們就發現他發現之後把他停存三年嘛對不對停存三年但是還有按外案就是被停存以後他同一個地址\n移世親屬關係的九鼎聯合有限公司還有他有同一位負責人的永冠印柴有限公司是不是還有繼續承攬國防部的案子委員好我是國防採購室主任是的我們有清查一個是九鼎一個是永冠確實在從去年到今年目前都有十幾個案子那瘋疫被停權三年之後是不是也繼續承攬國防部的案子\n我們清查有的在停權之後有期案知道了那部長我這邊想要問說為什麼我們會讓有國安疑慮的廠商持續承攬國防部的生意因為其實類似的狀況不是只有在國防部在其他很多的部會裡面都有狀況就比如說有一家A廠商那他有問題之後被停權了\n那這個到底是無法可管呢還是我們在整個確認過程當中太輕忽了部長\n我跟委員講無法可管不至於但在管理的方法可能當然又有遺漏就是說已經限制他怎麼還會流進來不管他假借什麼名義所以這我要我請你們瞭解不瞭解好不好你們要精進檢討來請簡單說明後面還有題目\n他是被中科院所停權因為中科院是行政法人他政治條例裡面他的採購這部分他不是用政府採購法所以說他都被停權你們有沒有黑名單嗎?這樣會不會進黑名單?中科院有管制\n是以後才要做還是過去本來就應該做但卻沒有做呢?\n過去沒有但是我們會落實所以未來拜託在這方面應該要精進檢討改善要落實好嗎我後面有其他的題目中科院請先回那部長我想要問最近這個週末發生這個有談到中國大陸的這個無人機那屢次進入我們金門營區來拍攝過去那又傳出了這個二膽島遭空拍機射入的這個情況\n我們可以看一下過去幾次其實我大概先列了6次或許不止這是新聞有報導的大陸無人機騷擾我們國家離島的這個記錄可以看到過去有一陣子是用石頭丟但後來我們整個國防部精進之後開始我們有相關的作為我們先看一下這次的事件地點在二膽島影片前面是一艘兩棲登陸艇送了彈藥上岸\n為什麼當下沒有做任何的處置?\n所以我跟委員報告 剛才委員前面講的經驗累積 我們定出一個很明確的方法所以這我也徹底檢討 嚴格講起來就是訓練不足訓練不足對 我們會繼續講話因為呢 這個金門這邊的說法 本來是說因為遠距拍攝逆光 所以沒有發現部長您會認同這樣子的一個說法嗎\n我非常肯定部長現在的說法因為這個說法跟我們看過影片來講有落差啊因為至少有兩名我們的士兵他有抬頭望向無人機的這個方位所以您要告訴我們說他們都不知道的話這個是大家比較難接受的\n所以訓練不足是一個問題因為其實部長您已經過去多次有談到這樣的一個狀況比如2023年10月你說反制無人軍有規定有預約的話信號彈該警告這邊彈藥就出去了今年3月7號您也談到了\n以前開槍開炮是第一集要反制現在無人機也來了我們把他打掉我們不是第一集他才是第一集我們把界定看得很清楚包含航空海航無人機無人艦有實體就要處理處理原則還是一樣該警告喊話打信號彈讓對方知道我們已經注意到這個要有應對的方法\n那我們要問的是按照規定的處置作為無人機防禦系統的建安作業112年貨裝以後我們有優先配附外島區的防用那這個外島都有配干擾槍部署也可以並用7.62公里以下的輕兵器實行試劇之內的應處請問在這點上面我們這次沒有做到要如何改進\n所以各位報告,通盤檢討還是訓練不足他有沒有,哪怕沒有發,我也都跟他講你要練一個替代的一個方案就目的要達到,讓他空拍機不能再往上空所以我今天昨天接到的狀況,事實上當天啦我聽到經防部的回應,就剛剛陳福光委員講的嘛我就起疑,我想說就算這個陽光照他無人機不是定點在這個地方啊\n所以我就再得到一個多加一個要更加強化的做法就是不能光講不練我會派國防部陸軍司令部全程把他盯到這個訓練的一個步調按照我們的要求有編組如果沒有干擾強何況他有如果有為什麼要\n這部分一定要強化而且要訓練\n因為最後雖然他沒有造成我們實質上說有對方有攻擊可是這個影片出去之後對方用這種嘲諷跟羞辱的方式對待我們的國軍我們看了之後也是非常看不下去的甚至我們的士兵離開那彈藥箱就放在旁邊也沒有任何人去做處理這個事情也是相當的離譜\n所以我們要要求國防部在我們的這些外導針對無人機來騷擾的過程當中整個SOP整個訓練要非常的清楚因為這個從過去去年開始到現在已經非常多次了\n現在發生了這樣子到第6次竟然我們的處理還是這種情況我相信國人看到都會覺得非常的訝異所以我想請部長再進一步做一下說明我們未來在這些教育訓練檢討上面你們有什麼樣的方針可以解決這樣子的一個問題\n我跟委員報告,就以往經驗累積我已經做一個很具體的說明,就是你狀況設定訓練是依據狀況來設定以後,就是什麼狀況由第一線他們的以往經驗來設定,不是往後方來講,像大家在前線有無人機這一定狀況,這有狀況以後我要怎麼處理,處理文牌有分工,聯長怎麼做,副聯長怎麼做,排長怎麼做,好\n我們家都有規定,但我覺得推給他們,這問題就是癥結所在,有規定他們沒有照規定或沒有決定,所以我在這方面我跟委員保證,也跟我們各單位我會去努力把這一定給弄到定位為止\n好 這部分一定要加油那呢 我們另外一個問題是先前在不斷追查之下我們才發現號稱天下第一營的憲兵211營它的邊線比只有67.8%那即便未來提到72.2%離我們一般期待的85%還是少了很多\n如果再扣掉休假官兵數字的話那又不一樣再加上我們的戰鬥部隊的邊線比可能會更少那就你們所提供的勤務表的平均數字裡面一個情況就是現有兵力每個連不到70人那我們如果再扣掉實際上還有百分之10的人請假等等的不在營內這樣的人數是足夠的嗎部長\n我們就針對這案子也要核算一個人不得超過每天三班每一班一站有三兩歇六所以當初犯的錯誤在哪裡他們也變一個彈性調整因為今天要出去涉及所以我們留少部分人來做站位兵造成的那這幾天我也特別在指揮所裡面或者在會議桌裡我一直跟他們強調任務是不可改變的\n規定你不要去變更在這個做法當中有兩項第一個我們必然補充給他應急第二個你補充不要造成其他問題從假單位掉幾個單位到乙單位來乙單位解決假單位問題又來這就是我接下來要問的事情就是說我們的憲兵營是不是要從5600人擴編到10600人\n目前還沒有那個上次那個賴世保委員質詢的時候國防部的回應說是這樣子的對沒有錯但是他分年的對對對這個是最後我們要分碼號那縣指部呢這個應該新增的兵員是以義務役為主嘛但是因應擴編的人力我們是不是也調了很多的志願的役的官兵去協助會不會發生剛才部長您講的這個情況\n就是說我們要因應新的義務役然後我們的憲兵擴編所以我們必須從包含是261到264總共4個營要新增嘛那我們可能從包含332、211、229跟239、238等等他們也有很重要的勤務啊去調我們的領導幹部去協助這個新的營區或新的連的需求\n那如果這樣做的話我們現在就連總統府的211邊線比都只有62%連站哨跟辦業務的人都不夠那請問這樣子我們擴編之後的人力我們現在規劃要怎麼樣補齊才能在不影響原本業務還有呢是其他營的業務的狀況之下那維持整個憲兵的運作\n我跟委員報告,所以剛才我已經分臉了在遇到什麼問題以後不要解決也不能造成其他問題的這個狀況下這種原則下我們就要一步一步來落實剛剛你講的由這個人員調配調配我也特別講你不要把這個東牆補西牆的概念造成其他問題\n我們有經驗,像這幾年做後備部隊調整,原本第一區後備指揮部是沒有兵員的,或者很少做兵員,我們也要陸續調整今年調整四個,明年調整四個,分年也可以調整到定位,絕對把握原則,不會把問題\n為了補救這個問題造成其他問題這我們一定要強化最後問一下因為我們憲兵只有台北的五個營兵他們有這個支領戰鬥家級我們五個營而已那其他的憲兵隊的部分沒有這個縫擠那未來有沒有考慮做提升這個一定要考慮一定要考慮嗎那簡單回答一下好不好戰鬥家級部分\n目前我們現在就是確實如委員所說就這個五個營有戰鬥佳績那我們其他是憲兵隊的部分目前是沒有佳績那我們也在爭取中好我們也會來支持好不好因為憲兵工作也相當的辛苦那如果未來要支應整個的擴編的話那相對應的戰鬥佳績該給的應該要給謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.512 --> 00:00.995\n邱國正、經濟部次長報告\n\n00:13.499 --> 00:41.111\n徐委員好委員好很高興看到你今天在備詢談上面銷價上班為了國家付出是值得肯定的那我首先呢想要請問一下今天呢王洪威委員他有發一個新聞稿他談到呢中科院過去在採購飛彈原物料的時候那全欄外購的一家公司叫做豐益公司他所提供的原料過濾酸胺來自中國大陸有這樣的疑似情形請問一下可不可以說明一下有沒有這樣的事\n\n00:41.431 --> 01:04.378\n我跟委員講那是請中科院您了解是吧是請說來中科院確實有這個情況確實有這個情況我們在110年的公案111年他交貨的時候9月我們就發現他發現之後把他停存三年嘛對不對停存三年但是還有按外案就是被停存以後他同一個地址\n\n01:04.778 --> 01:33.931\n移世親屬關係的九鼎聯合有限公司還有他有同一位負責人的永冠印柴有限公司是不是還有繼續承攬國防部的案子委員好我是國防採購室主任是的我們有清查一個是九鼎一個是永冠確實在從去年到今年目前都有十幾個案子那瘋疫被停權三年之後是不是也繼續承攬國防部的案子\n\n01:34.876 --> 01:54.797\n我們清查有的在停權之後有期案知道了那部長我這邊想要問說為什麼我們會讓有國安疑慮的廠商持續承攬國防部的生意因為其實類似的狀況不是只有在國防部在其他很多的部會裡面都有狀況就比如說有一家A廠商那他有問題之後被停權了\n\n01:55.598 --> 01:56.658\n那這個到底是無法可管呢還是我們在整個確認過程當中太輕忽了部長\n\n02:12.685 --> 02:27.484\n我跟委員講無法可管不至於但在管理的方法可能當然又有遺漏就是說已經限制他怎麼還會流進來不管他假借什麼名義所以這我要我請你們瞭解不瞭解好不好你們要精進檢討來請簡單說明後面還有題目\n\n02:31.189 --> 02:47.927\n他是被中科院所停權因為中科院是行政法人他政治條例裡面他的採購這部分他不是用政府採購法所以說他都被停權你們有沒有黑名單嗎?這樣會不會進黑名單?中科院有管制\n\n02:48.467 --> 02:49.828\n是以後才要做還是過去本來就應該做但卻沒有做呢?\n\n03:10.123 --> 03:22.327\n過去沒有但是我們會落實所以未來拜託在這方面應該要精進檢討改善要落實好嗎我後面有其他的題目中科院請先回那部長我想要問最近這個週末發生這個有談到中國大陸的這個無人機那屢次進入我們金門營區來拍攝過去那又傳出了這個二膽島遭空拍機射入的這個情況\n\n03:35.552 --> 04:00.493\n我們可以看一下過去幾次其實我大概先列了6次或許不止這是新聞有報導的大陸無人機騷擾我們國家離島的這個記錄可以看到過去有一陣子是用石頭丟但後來我們整個國防部精進之後開始我們有相關的作為我們先看一下這次的事件地點在二膽島影片前面是一艘兩棲登陸艇送了彈藥上岸\n\n04:02.955 --> 04:04.057\n為什麼當下沒有做任何的處置?\n\n04:13.151 --> 04:27.676\n所以我跟委員報告剛才委員前面講的經驗累積我們定出一個很明確的方法所以這我也徹底檢討嚴格講起來就是訓練不足訓練不足對我們會繼續講話因為呢這個金門這邊的說法本來是說因為遠距拍攝逆光所以沒有發現部長您會認同這樣子的一個說法嗎\n\n04:35.239 --> 04:43.584\n我非常肯定部長現在的說法因為這個說法跟我們看過影片來講有落差啊因為至少有兩名我們的士兵他有抬頭望向無人機的這個方位所以您要告訴我們說他們都不知道的話這個是大家比較難接受的\n\n05:03.996 --> 05:18.367\n所以訓練不足是一個問題因為其實部長您已經過去多次有談到這樣的一個狀況比如2023年10月你說反制無人軍有規定有預約的話信號彈該警告這邊彈藥就出去了今年3月7號您也談到了\n\n05:20.208 --> 05:40.951\n以前開槍開炮是第一集要反制現在無人機也來了我們把他打掉我們不是第一集他才是第一集我們把界定看得很清楚包含航空海航無人機無人艦有實體就要處理處理原則還是一樣該警告喊話打信號彈讓對方知道我們已經注意到這個要有應對的方法\n\n05:41.311 --> 06:03.338\n那我們要問的是按照規定的處置作為無人機防禦系統的建安作業112年貨裝以後我們有優先配附外島區的防用那這個外島都有配干擾槍部署也可以並用7.62公里以下的輕兵器實行試劇之內的應處請問在這點上面我們這次沒有做到要如何改進\n\n06:04.264 --> 06:32.443\n所以各位報告,通盤檢討還是訓練不足他有沒有,哪怕沒有發,我也都跟他講你要練一個替代的一個方案就目的要達到,讓他空拍機不能再往上空所以我今天昨天接到的狀況,事實上當天啦我聽到經防部的回應,就剛剛陳福光委員講的嘛我就起疑,我想說就算這個陽光照他無人機不是定點在這個地方啊\n\n06:33.143 --> 06:53.923\n所以我就再得到一個多加一個要更加強化的做法就是不能光講不練我會派國防部陸軍司令部全程把他盯到這個訓練的一個步調按照我們的要求有編組如果沒有干擾強何況他有如果有為什麼要\n\n06:55.225 --> 06:55.905\n這部分一定要強化而且要訓練\n\n07:12.541 --> 07:32.070\n因為最後雖然他沒有造成我們實質上說有對方有攻擊可是這個影片出去之後對方用這種嘲諷跟羞辱的方式對待我們的國軍我們看了之後也是非常看不下去的甚至我們的士兵離開那彈藥箱就放在旁邊也沒有任何人去做處理這個事情也是相當的離譜\n\n07:32.990 --> 07:47.426\n所以我們要要求國防部在我們的這些外導針對無人機來騷擾的過程當中整個SOP整個訓練要非常的清楚因為這個從過去去年開始到現在已經非常多次了\n\n07:48.007 --> 08:03.449\n現在發生了這樣子到第6次竟然我們的處理還是這種情況我相信國人看到都會覺得非常的訝異所以我想請部長再進一步做一下說明我們未來在這些教育訓練檢討上面你們有什麼樣的方針可以解決這樣子的一個問題\n\n08:04.090 --> 08:27.763\n我跟委員報告,就以往經驗累積我已經做一個很具體的說明,就是你狀況設定訓練是依據狀況來設定以後,就是什麼狀況由第一線他們的以往經驗來設定,不是往後方來講,像大家在前線有無人機這一定狀況,這有狀況以後我要怎麼處理,處理文牌有分工,聯長怎麼做,副聯長怎麼做,排長怎麼做,好\n\n08:28.303 --> 08:44.306\n我們家都有規定,但我覺得推給他們,這問題就是癥結所在,有規定他們沒有照規定或沒有決定,所以我在這方面我跟委員保證,也跟我們各單位我會去努力把這一定給弄到定位為止\n\n08:44.807 --> 08:59.672\n好這部分一定要加油那呢我們另外一個問題是先前在不斷追查之下我們才發現號稱天下第一營的憲兵211營它的邊線比只有67.8%那即便未來提到72.2%離我們一般期待的85%還是少了很多\n\n09:04.153 --> 09:24.884\n如果再扣掉休假官兵數字的話那又不一樣再加上我們的戰鬥部隊的邊線比可能會更少那就你們所提供的勤務表的平均數字裡面一個情況就是現有兵力每個連不到70人那我們如果再扣掉實際上還有百分之10的人請假等等的不在營內這樣的人數是足夠的嗎部長\n\n09:27.452 --> 09:51.585\n我們就針對這案子也要核算一個人不得超過每天三班每一班一站有三兩歇六所以當初犯的錯誤在哪裡他們也變一個彈性調整因為今天要出去涉及所以我們留少部分人來做站位兵造成的那這幾天我也特別在指揮所裡面或者在會議桌裡我一直跟他們強調任務是不可改變的\n\n09:52.445 --> 10:11.817\n規定你不要去變更在這個做法當中有兩項第一個我們必然補充給他應急第二個你補充不要造成其他問題從假單位掉幾個單位到乙單位來乙單位解決假單位問題又來這就是我接下來要問的事情就是說我們的憲兵營是不是要從5600人擴編到10600人\n\n10:15.479 --> 10:37.104\n目前還沒有那個上次那個賴世保委員質詢的時候國防部的回應說是這樣子的對沒有錯但是他分年的對對對這個是最後我們要分碼號那縣指部呢這個應該新增的兵員是以義務役為主嘛但是因應擴編的人力我們是不是也調了很多的志願的役的官兵去協助會不會發生剛才部長您講的這個情況\n\n10:39.625 --> 10:44.149\n就是說我們要因應新的義務役然後我們的憲兵擴編所以我們必須從包含是261到264總共4個營要新增嘛那我們可能從包含332、211、229跟239、238等等他們也有很重要的勤務啊去調我們的領導幹部去協助這個新的營區或新的連的需求\n\n11:03.226 --> 11:07.290\n那如果這樣做的話我們現在就連總統府的211邊線比都只有62%連站哨跟辦業務的人都不夠那請問這樣子我們擴編之後的人力我們現在規劃要怎麼樣補齊才能在不影響原本業務還有呢是其他營的業務的狀況之下那維持整個憲兵的運作\n\n11:25.686 --> 11:43.644\n我跟委員報告,所以剛才我已經分臉了在遇到什麼問題以後不要解決也不能造成其他問題的這個狀況下這種原則下我們就要一步一步來落實剛剛你講的由這個人員調配調配我也特別講你不要把這個東牆補西牆的概念造成其他問題\n\n11:45.486 --> 12:01.323\n我們有經驗,像這幾年做後備部隊調整,原本第一區後備指揮部是沒有兵員的,或者很少做兵員,我們也要陸續調整今年調整四個,明年調整四個,分年也可以調整到定位,絕對把握原則,不會把問題\n\n12:03.866 --> 12:28.172\n為了補救這個問題造成其他問題這我們一定要強化最後問一下因為我們憲兵只有台北的五個營兵他們有這個支領戰鬥家級我們五個營而已那其他的憲兵隊的部分沒有這個縫擠那未來有沒有考慮做提升這個一定要考慮一定要考慮嗎那簡單回答一下好不好戰鬥家級部分\n\n12:28.869 --> 12:45.610\n目前我們現在就是確實如委員所說就這個五個營有戰鬥佳績那我們其他是憲兵隊的部分目前是沒有佳績那我們也在爭取中好我們也會來支持好不好因為憲兵工作也相當的辛苦那如果未來要支應整個的擴編的話那相對應的戰鬥佳績該給的應該要給謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.512,"end":0.995,"text":"邱國正、經濟部次長報告"},{"start":13.499,"end":41.111,"text":"徐委員好委員好很高興看到你今天在備詢談上面銷價上班為了國家付出是值得肯定的那我首先呢想要請問一下今天呢王洪威委員他有發一個新聞稿他談到呢中科院過去在採購飛彈原物料的時候那全欄外購的一家公司叫做豐益公司他所提供的原料過濾酸胺來自中國大陸有這樣的疑似情形請問一下可不可以說明一下有沒有這樣的事"},{"start":41.431,"end":64.378,"text":"我跟委員講 那是請中科院您了解是吧是 請說 來中科院確實有這個情況確實有這個情況我們在110年的公案111年他交貨的時候9月我們就發現他發現之後把他停存三年嘛對不對停存三年但是還有按外案就是被停存以後他同一個地址"},{"start":64.778,"end":93.931,"text":"移世親屬關係的九鼎聯合有限公司還有他有同一位負責人的永冠印柴有限公司是不是還有繼續承攬國防部的案子委員好我是國防採購室主任是的我們有清查一個是九鼎一個是永冠確實在從去年到今年目前都有十幾個案子那瘋疫被停權三年之後是不是也繼續承攬國防部的案子"},{"start":94.876,"end":114.797,"text":"我們清查有的在停權之後有期案知道了那部長我這邊想要問說為什麼我們會讓有國安疑慮的廠商持續承攬國防部的生意因為其實類似的狀況不是只有在國防部在其他很多的部會裡面都有狀況就比如說有一家A廠商那他有問題之後被停權了"},{"start":115.598,"end":116.658,"text":"那這個到底是無法可管呢還是我們在整個確認過程當中太輕忽了部長"},{"start":132.685,"end":147.484,"text":"我跟委員講無法可管不至於但在管理的方法可能當然又有遺漏就是說已經限制他怎麼還會流進來不管他假借什麼名義所以這我要我請你們瞭解不瞭解好不好你們要精進檢討來請簡單說明後面還有題目"},{"start":151.189,"end":167.927,"text":"他是被中科院所停權因為中科院是行政法人他政治條例裡面他的採購這部分他不是用政府採購法所以說他都被停權你們有沒有黑名單嗎?這樣會不會進黑名單?中科院有管制"},{"start":168.467,"end":169.828,"text":"是以後才要做還是過去本來就應該做但卻沒有做呢?"},{"start":190.123,"end":202.327,"text":"過去沒有但是我們會落實所以未來拜託在這方面應該要精進檢討改善要落實好嗎我後面有其他的題目中科院請先回那部長我想要問最近這個週末發生這個有談到中國大陸的這個無人機那屢次進入我們金門營區來拍攝過去那又傳出了這個二膽島遭空拍機射入的這個情況"},{"start":215.552,"end":240.493,"text":"我們可以看一下過去幾次其實我大概先列了6次或許不止這是新聞有報導的大陸無人機騷擾我們國家離島的這個記錄可以看到過去有一陣子是用石頭丟但後來我們整個國防部精進之後開始我們有相關的作為我們先看一下這次的事件地點在二膽島影片前面是一艘兩棲登陸艇送了彈藥上岸"},{"start":242.955,"end":244.057,"text":"為什麼當下沒有做任何的處置?"},{"start":253.151,"end":267.676,"text":"所以我跟委員報告 剛才委員前面講的經驗累積 我們定出一個很明確的方法所以這我也徹底檢討 嚴格講起來就是訓練不足訓練不足對 我們會繼續講話因為呢 這個金門這邊的說法 本來是說因為遠距拍攝逆光 所以沒有發現部長您會認同這樣子的一個說法嗎"},{"start":275.239,"end":283.584,"text":"我非常肯定部長現在的說法因為這個說法跟我們看過影片來講有落差啊因為至少有兩名我們的士兵他有抬頭望向無人機的這個方位所以您要告訴我們說他們都不知道的話這個是大家比較難接受的"},{"start":303.996,"end":318.367,"text":"所以訓練不足是一個問題因為其實部長您已經過去多次有談到這樣的一個狀況比如2023年10月你說反制無人軍有規定有預約的話信號彈該警告這邊彈藥就出去了今年3月7號您也談到了"},{"start":320.208,"end":340.951,"text":"以前開槍開炮是第一集要反制現在無人機也來了我們把他打掉我們不是第一集他才是第一集我們把界定看得很清楚包含航空海航無人機無人艦有實體就要處理處理原則還是一樣該警告喊話打信號彈讓對方知道我們已經注意到這個要有應對的方法"},{"start":341.311,"end":363.338,"text":"那我們要問的是按照規定的處置作為無人機防禦系統的建安作業112年貨裝以後我們有優先配附外島區的防用那這個外島都有配干擾槍部署也可以並用7.62公里以下的輕兵器實行試劇之內的應處請問在這點上面我們這次沒有做到要如何改進"},{"start":364.264,"end":392.443,"text":"所以各位報告,通盤檢討還是訓練不足他有沒有,哪怕沒有發,我也都跟他講你要練一個替代的一個方案就目的要達到,讓他空拍機不能再往上空所以我今天昨天接到的狀況,事實上當天啦我聽到經防部的回應,就剛剛陳福光委員講的嘛我就起疑,我想說就算這個陽光照他無人機不是定點在這個地方啊"},{"start":393.143,"end":413.923,"text":"所以我就再得到一個多加一個要更加強化的做法就是不能光講不練我會派國防部陸軍司令部全程把他盯到這個訓練的一個步調按照我們的要求有編組如果沒有干擾強何況他有如果有為什麼要"},{"start":415.225,"end":415.905,"text":"這部分一定要強化而且要訓練"},{"start":432.541,"end":452.07,"text":"因為最後雖然他沒有造成我們實質上說有對方有攻擊可是這個影片出去之後對方用這種嘲諷跟羞辱的方式對待我們的國軍我們看了之後也是非常看不下去的甚至我們的士兵離開那彈藥箱就放在旁邊也沒有任何人去做處理這個事情也是相當的離譜"},{"start":452.99,"end":467.426,"text":"所以我們要要求國防部在我們的這些外導針對無人機來騷擾的過程當中整個SOP整個訓練要非常的清楚因為這個從過去去年開始到現在已經非常多次了"},{"start":468.007,"end":483.449,"text":"現在發生了這樣子到第6次竟然我們的處理還是這種情況我相信國人看到都會覺得非常的訝異所以我想請部長再進一步做一下說明我們未來在這些教育訓練檢討上面你們有什麼樣的方針可以解決這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":484.09,"end":507.763,"text":"我跟委員報告,就以往經驗累積我已經做一個很具體的說明,就是你狀況設定訓練是依據狀況來設定以後,就是什麼狀況由第一線他們的以往經驗來設定,不是往後方來講,像大家在前線有無人機這一定狀況,這有狀況以後我要怎麼處理,處理文牌有分工,聯長怎麼做,副聯長怎麼做,排長怎麼做,好"},{"start":508.303,"end":524.306,"text":"我們家都有規定,但我覺得推給他們,這問題就是癥結所在,有規定他們沒有照規定或沒有決定,所以我在這方面我跟委員保證,也跟我們各單位我會去努力把這一定給弄到定位為止"},{"start":524.807,"end":539.672,"text":"好 這部分一定要加油那呢 我們另外一個問題是先前在不斷追查之下我們才發現號稱天下第一營的憲兵211營它的邊線比只有67.8%那即便未來提到72.2%離我們一般期待的85%還是少了很多"},{"start":544.153,"end":564.884,"text":"如果再扣掉休假官兵數字的話那又不一樣再加上我們的戰鬥部隊的邊線比可能會更少那就你們所提供的勤務表的平均數字裡面一個情況就是現有兵力每個連不到70人那我們如果再扣掉實際上還有百分之10的人請假等等的不在營內這樣的人數是足夠的嗎部長"},{"start":567.452,"end":591.585,"text":"我們就針對這案子也要核算一個人不得超過每天三班每一班一站有三兩歇六所以當初犯的錯誤在哪裡他們也變一個彈性調整因為今天要出去涉及所以我們留少部分人來做站位兵造成的那這幾天我也特別在指揮所裡面或者在會議桌裡我一直跟他們強調任務是不可改變的"},{"start":592.445,"end":611.817,"text":"規定你不要去變更在這個做法當中有兩項第一個我們必然補充給他應急第二個你補充不要造成其他問題從假單位掉幾個單位到乙單位來乙單位解決假單位問題又來這就是我接下來要問的事情就是說我們的憲兵營是不是要從5600人擴編到10600人"},{"start":615.479,"end":637.104,"text":"目前還沒有那個上次那個賴世保委員質詢的時候國防部的回應說是這樣子的對沒有錯但是他分年的對對對這個是最後我們要分碼號那縣指部呢這個應該新增的兵員是以義務役為主嘛但是因應擴編的人力我們是不是也調了很多的志願的役的官兵去協助會不會發生剛才部長您講的這個情況"},{"start":639.625,"end":644.149,"text":"就是說我們要因應新的義務役然後我們的憲兵擴編所以我們必須從包含是261到264總共4個營要新增嘛那我們可能從包含332、211、229跟239、238等等他們也有很重要的勤務啊去調我們的領導幹部去協助這個新的營區或新的連的需求"},{"start":663.226,"end":667.29,"text":"那如果這樣做的話我們現在就連總統府的211邊線比都只有62%連站哨跟辦業務的人都不夠那請問這樣子我們擴編之後的人力我們現在規劃要怎麼樣補齊才能在不影響原本業務還有呢是其他營的業務的狀況之下那維持整個憲兵的運作"},{"start":685.686,"end":703.644,"text":"我跟委員報告,所以剛才我已經分臉了在遇到什麼問題以後不要解決也不能造成其他問題的這個狀況下這種原則下我們就要一步一步來落實剛剛你講的由這個人員調配調配我也特別講你不要把這個東牆補西牆的概念造成其他問題"},{"start":705.486,"end":721.323,"text":"我們有經驗,像這幾年做後備部隊調整,原本第一區後備指揮部是沒有兵員的,或者很少做兵員,我們也要陸續調整今年調整四個,明年調整四個,分年也可以調整到定位,絕對把握原則,不會把問題"},{"start":723.866,"end":748.172,"text":"為了補救這個問題造成其他問題這我們一定要強化最後問一下因為我們憲兵只有台北的五個營兵他們有這個支領戰鬥家級我們五個營而已那其他的憲兵隊的部分沒有這個縫擠那未來有沒有考慮做提升這個一定要考慮一定要考慮嗎那簡單回答一下好不好戰鬥家級部分"},{"start":748.869,"end":765.61,"text":"目前我們現在就是確實如委員所說就這個五個營有戰鬥佳績那我們其他是憲兵隊的部分目前是沒有佳績那我們也在爭取中好我們也會來支持好不好因為憲兵工作也相當的辛苦那如果未來要支應整個的擴編的話那相對應的戰鬥佳績該給的應該要給謝謝"}]}}}}