{"id":150736,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150736","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c03d9710bef8211a6f0ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a6a31332d4c37b8b925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:50:41 - 10:59:00","影片長度":"00:08:19","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案」案。(詢答及處理)）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":499,"end_time":"2024-04-01T10:59:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T10:50:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時50分）謝謝主席，請龔主委及胡次長。"],["主席：再請兩位，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委、次長，對於重大的交通建設，大家都努力在爭取，但是也要特別提醒，不管是藍綠白朝野各政黨，所有重大建設其實都牽涉到資源上的分配及一些相關的，我們認為都要審慎思考及評估。就像我看到2019年當時的韓國瑜、現在的院長要選總統的時候，還特別講到高鐵應該用長遠的角度來思考，不要造成盲腸線的高鐵，主委同不同意類似這樣的看法？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所有的交通建設有地方上的需求，經過可行性評估及綜合規劃認為可行，我們就全力來支持。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以每一個重大建設都要審慎去做思考及評估，才能夠把國家有限的資源達到最大、最大的效益，這是大家高度的共識。","你們的報告第四點裡面有提到高鐵的經費來源，我問一下，如果這樣的經費，將來要花到多少？現在看來主要是花東段，如果高鐵要環過去，因為已經做到宜蘭、也做到屏東，花東段的話，未來要不要再增加1兆、2兆的經費？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：專業上可能要請交通部來回答。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請次長。"],["胡次長湘麟：跟賴委員報告，目前我們對於宜蘭接到屏東，中間經過花蓮、臺東的這一段還沒有做相關的評估。"],["賴委員瑞隆：還沒有做評估，所以依照過去的做法，要先做評估？"],["胡次長湘麟：是，我們要做可行性研究跟……"],["賴委員瑞隆：做完評估，才會有經費，才會有相關的可行性整個出來？"],["胡次長湘麟：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以應該循這樣的程序來走。"],["胡次長湘麟：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我要講的是，如果現在以這樣的特別條例的方式去訂定的話，看來主要是針對花東這一塊，如果是這樣的話，其他每個地方要是都要比照這樣的方式處理，國發會或交通部會不會很困擾？主委先講好了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所有的重大公共建設或交通建設，我們還是認為要循現在的程序，因為以交通部來講，他們有一個全臺灣的運輸交通白皮書，現在白皮書規劃出來以後，比如全臺灣可能一日生活圈6個小時，我們就用一塊、一塊的拼圖把它做好，循現在的程序來辦理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：循相關的程序來走，要不然以主席的選區──臺中很重要，高雄也很重要，如果總共22個縣市每個都提一個特別條例來做相關的處理，我看整個也會很亂，同時間行政院、國發會恐怕也會非常地忙碌，這樣是一個適合的方式嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，所以我們才說施政有其原來的發展，願景，這個發展願景就循序漸進，一步、一步地……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以建設可以持續來推動，但是依相關程序走，用這樣的特別條例不是一個好的方式。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，因為我們全臺灣的建設能量也有限制，不可能同時間擴張1倍、2倍做處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。我再問，你們的報告裡面也提到相關的權責機構，西部的高鐵從臺北到高雄這一段都是由交通部負責，如果唯獨這樣，會變成未來這一段是國發會負責嗎？如果條例這樣通過，是國發會負責，還是交通部負責？主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以我們才說希望所有交通建設的主管機關還是有一致性，因為它是單純的交通事項，交通部現在已經有一個完整的藍圖規劃，他們也按照他們的節奏在做一些研究，甚至如果真的有需要的話，就會跨到可行性去做研究，而研究會循正常的管道報到行政院，我們來做審議、協助。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以如果將來要做這樣的建設，應該是走可行性的部分，由交通部循著過去的程序，就像過去的高鐵從臺北到臺中、到高雄，以這樣的方式來進行，因為這樣才是一個正辦的方式，現在如果採用這種特別條例的部分，國發認為其實不是一個比較好的方式，是嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對！因為我們覺得已經有既有的機制了，這個機制現在看起來還算順利，也沒有什麼窒礙難行的地方。"],["賴委員瑞隆：次長要不要說一下，如果都這樣改的話，將來會不會有點混亂？交通部跟國發會各自主導一部分，會不會很混亂？"],["胡次長湘麟：這部分是會造成處理程序上的一些困擾。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以次長、交通部的意見也希望這個統籌是由交通部來處理，依相關的程序來辦理，對不對？"],["胡次長湘麟：如果按照現有的程序，我們認為是比較妥適的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我也要提啦！其實在憲法第七十條規定：「立法院對於行政院所提預算案，不得為增加支出之提議」，我也認為行政跟立法是相互尊重的，我認為如果以這樣的條例通過的話，像這樣加下去，當然次長很客氣沒有講，看來可能是1兆、2兆的經費，這恐怕是另外一個變相的，由立法院去要求行政院做一個支出的決議，將來這些的責任是由誰來負擔，會很混亂，即將來這件事情在政策上決策的成敗負擔歸誰會很混亂。每個立委、每個選區競相加碼，反而會造成行政權跟立法權混亂的狀況，我認為其實不是個好方法，還是應該回到由行政機關依相關的程序走，立法委員當然可以爭取，這幾年我跟好多位委員，包括楊瓊瓔委員，我們爭取到好多的經費，都是在循溝通的角度，不斷地在協調之後，說服行政機關啟動相關程序，像可行性等等，再來編列經費，我認為這個才是一個正辦，由行政體系來走，而立法院站在建議跟監督的角度，我認為這才是正辦；如果動輒都是由立法院來發動，行政跟立法權會相互混亂掉，將來這件事情的對錯由誰來負責，當時是由立法院通過要求做的，如果最後發現有很大的一些問題的時候，這個責任應該由誰來負？所以我認為新的國會起來，這個界限還是要拉清楚，不然將來權力分立的原則整個會破壞掉，我認為對整個臺灣不見得是個好事情。","最後一點，我想要用一點時間再問一下。我看到昨天有個新聞出來，韓國的政府看見了我們的風力發電做得很好，他們在2030年要達到14倍以上，包括日本也看到臺灣做了283支的風電，他們現在做53支，日本跟韓國都看到了臺灣在風電這邊的速度相當快，他們非常認同，顯見臺灣的風電政策是走在正確的道路上，而日本、韓國都在跟進著臺灣。主委，怎麼來看待這樣的新聞？跟未來臺灣是不是應該加速整個綠電的推動？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是！因為離岸風電從2016年開始，我們就積極地開始推動，現在也算是有階段性的一些成果了，經濟部也在辦理第三階段區塊開發的相關規劃，我們希望大家也可以儘量往這個方向來進行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：臺灣走在一個正確的道路上，特別是綠電，這是全世界的趨勢，臺灣現在是領先的，連日本、韓國都在跟進臺灣的腳步，我也希望國發會、經濟部、各部會應該持續來推動，這個政策方向絕對是正確的，大家應該要全力推動，讓臺灣在綠能、在能源這塊繼續走在世界的前端，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來我們請林俊憲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,730 --> 00:00:14,385\n請做詢答我們現場還有兩位委員我們到何信聰委員詢答結束之後我們再休息五分鐘謝謝好謝謝主席我們請廣儲委跟胡次長我們再請兩位謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:19,819 --> 00:00:41,396\n主委、次長我想這個重大的交通建設想大家都努力在爭取但是其實也要特別提醒不管是藍綠白、朝野各政黨所有重大建設其實都牽扯到了這個資源上的分配還有一些相關我們認為其實都要審慎來做一個思考跟評估就像我還看到這個2019年的時候當時的韓國瑜現在院長當時要選總統的時候他還特別講到了這個高鐵\n\n3\n00:00:48,202 --> 00:00:56,138\n應該用長遠的角度來思考,不要造成一個盲藏線的高鐵。主委同不同意類似這樣的看法?\n\n4\n00:00:57,901 --> 00:01:25,116\n所有的這個交通建設有地方上的需求然後我們經過可行性評估跟綜合化可行我們就全力來支持所以每一個重大建設都要審慎去做思考跟評估這個才能夠把國家的有限的資源達到最大最大的一個效益我想這是大家的高度的一個共識那依現在因為我看到你報告裡面有提到這個你的第三點裡面有這個提到就是說\n\n5\n00:01:26,276 --> 00:01:42,307\n第4點,你的高鐵的經費來源的部分,那我問一下,如果這樣的經費將來要花到多少?現在看來主要是花東段,如果高鐵要還過去的話,因為你已經做到宜蘭也做到屏東,未來這個要不要增加一兆兩兆的經費?\n\n6\n00:01:45,455 --> 00:02:10,258\n這個專業上就可能交通部來回答來請次長是跟代委員報告目前我們對於說宜蘭街道街道屏東的中間經過花蓮台東的這段目前我們還沒有做相關的評估還沒有做評估所以要先做依照過去的要先做這個評估我們要做可行性所以評估才會有經費才會有相關的一些可行性整個出來是所以應該循這樣的程序來走是\n\n7\n00:02:10,618 --> 00:02:28,473\n那我要講的是因為如果現在做這樣的一個做一個這樣的特別條例的方式去做訂定的話看來主要是針對花東這一塊的啦那如果這樣的話那其他每個地方如果都要比照這樣的方式處理的話那國發會或交通部會不會很困擾\n\n8\n00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:57,548\n主委先講好了主委所以我們還是所有的重大的公共建設也好或者是交通建設我們還是認為就是說循現展因為以交通部來講他們全台灣有一個運輸交通的一個白皮書那現在白皮書規劃出來以後比如說全台灣可能一日生活圈6個小時那怎麼樣我們就一塊一塊拼圖把它做好那循現在的這個所以循相關的程序來走啦\n\n9\n00:02:58,328 --> 00:03:15,424\n不然以主席的選區臺中很重要高雄這邊也很重要如果每個總共22個縣市啦如果每個縣市都來提一個特別條例來做這個相關的處理的話那我看這個整個也會很亂啦同時間整個行政院包括國發會恐怕也會非常的忙碌這樣是一個適合的方式嗎\n\n10\n00:03:17,092 --> 00:03:36,945\n對,所以我們才說施政還是有它的這個原來的發展願景,那這個發展願景來講的話就循序漸進所以建設可以持續來推動,但是意向要持續走,那用這樣特別條例不是一個好的方式因為我們全台灣的這個建設的能量也是有它的限制,不可能同時間擴張一倍兩倍這樣來做一些處理\n\n11\n00:03:39,306 --> 00:03:56,315\n好,那,所以這個,那我再問吼,包括你們也提到你們報告裡面吼,這個相關的權責機構,西部的這邊的高鐵吼,從台北到高雄這一段,是由交通部來負責,那唯獨這樣會變成是,未來這一段是國發會負責嗎?如果這個條例這樣通過,是國發會負責還是交通部來負責?\n\n12\n00:04:01,558 --> 00:04:27,884\n所以我們才說希望這個所謂的交通建設主管機關還是希望有一致性因為它是單純的交通事項那交通部現在已經有它一個完整的一個藍圖規劃那他們也按照他們的節奏在做一些研究甚至你如果要真的需要的話就會跨到可行性去做研究那研究他會循正常的管道報告行政來我們來做審議協助\n\n13\n00:04:29,604 --> 00:04:50,529\n所以如果將來要做這樣的建設也應該是走我可行性相關的部分然後由交通部去循這個過去的程序來走就像從過去的高鐵從台北到台中到高雄這樣的方式來進行包括要到用這樣才是一個正辦的方式那如果用採用現在採用這種特別條例的部分國發認為其實不是一個比較好的方式是嗎\n\n14\n00:04:51,762 --> 00:05:20,228\n對因為我們覺得就是說已經既有的機制了嘛那這個機制現在看起來就是還算順利就是也沒有什麼自愛難行的地方次長要不要說一下如果這樣的狀況都這樣改的話會不會將來會有點混亂交通部跟國發會各自主導一部分會不會很混亂這部分是會造成一些處理程序上的一些困擾所以次長交通部這邊的意見希望這個統籌是由交通部來處理以相關的程序來辦理嘛對不對\n\n15\n00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:44,571\n如果說按照現有的程序我們認為是比較妥適的好我也要提其實在憲法第70條的時候其實有一條是立法院對行政院所提的預算案不得為增加之出之提議我也認為其實行政跟立法是相互尊重的那我認為如果以這樣的東西不斷通過的話它動輒像這樣加下去當然次長很客氣沒有講\n\n16\n00:05:45,111 --> 00:06:03,953\n看來可能是一兆兩兆的一個經費的話這恐怕是另外一個變相的由立法院去要求行政院做一個這個支出的一個決議那這樣的時候將來這些的責任是由誰來負擔會很混亂就是說將來這件事情的政策上的一個決策的成敗的負擔由誰會很混亂那每個立委每個選區進香加碼\n\n17\n00:06:05,695 --> 00:06:24,108\n我認為這個反而造成了行政權跟立法前一些混亂的一些狀況我認為其實不是個好方法我認為還是應該回到由行政機關依相關的審議所立法委員但爭取這幾年我跟好多位委員包括楊俊宏我們爭取到好多的經費都是在尋溝通的角度\n\n18\n00:06:24,508 --> 00:06:48,116\n去不斷地去協調之後然後說服行政機關那開始的他整個啟動相關程序可行性啦然後等等然後再來編列經費我認為這個才是一個正辦由行政體系來走而立法院做一個建議跟監督的這樣的角度來走我認為這才是正辦如果動輒都是由立法院來發動那不斷地由那這個行政跟立法權會相互混亂掉那將來這件事情的對錯由誰來負責\n\n19\n00:06:51,298 --> 00:07:15,276\n當時是由立法院通過要求做的那這個責任是應該由誰來負?如果最後發現有很大的一些問題的時候所以我認為不應該新的國會起來要把這個界線還是要拉清楚不然將來那個權力分立的原則整個會破壞掉我認為對整個台灣不見得是個好事情最後一點點我想要用一點時間再問一下我看到昨天有個新聞出來韓國的政府他們看見了風力發電做得很好他們在20300要達到14倍以上\n\n20\n00:07:17,879 --> 00:07:37,460\n這個包括日本也看到了台灣做了283支的風電他們現在做53日本跟韓國都看到了台灣在風電這邊的速度相當快他們非常認同所以顯見台灣的風電政策是走在正確的道路上而日本韓國都在跟進著台灣主委怎麼來看待這樣的新聞跟未來台灣是不是應該加速整個綠電的推動\n\n21\n00:07:38,741 --> 00:07:54,561\n是,因為離岸風電從2016年開始我們就積極地開始推動那現在也算是有階段性的一些成果了那現在經濟部也在辦第三階的這個區塊開發的一些相關規劃那我們希望大家也可以盡量往這個方向來進行\n\n22\n00:07:55,162 --> 00:07:55,182\n好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n730\t14385\t請做詢答我們現場還有兩位委員我們到何信聰委員詢答結束之後我們再休息五分鐘謝謝好 謝謝主席我們請廣儲委跟胡次長我們再請兩位 謝謝\n19819\t41396\t主委、次長我想這個重大的交通建設想大家都努力在爭取但是其實也要特別提醒不管是藍綠白、朝野各政黨所有重大建設其實都牽扯到了這個資源上的分配還有一些相關我們認為其實都要審慎來做一個思考跟評估就像我還看到這個2019年的時候當時的韓國瑜現在院長當時要選總統的時候他還特別講到了這個高鐵\n48202\t56138\t應該用長遠的角度來思考,不要造成一個盲藏線的高鐵。主委同不同意類似這樣的看法?\n57901\t85116\t所有的這個交通建設有地方上的需求然後我們經過可行性評估跟綜合化可行我們就全力來支持所以每一個重大建設都要審慎去做思考跟評估這個才能夠把國家的有限的資源達到最大最大的一個效益我想這是大家的高度的一個共識那依現在因為我看到你報告裡面有提到這個你的第三點裡面有這個提到就是說\n86276\t102307\t第4點,你的高鐵的經費來源的部分,那我問一下,如果這樣的經費將來要花到多少?現在看來主要是花東段,如果高鐵要還過去的話,因為你已經做到宜蘭也做到屏東,未來這個要不要增加一兆兩兆的經費?\n105455\t130258\t這個專業上就可能交通部來回答來請次長是跟代委員報告目前我們對於說宜蘭街道街道屏東的中間經過花蓮台東的這段目前我們還沒有做相關的評估還沒有做評估所以要先做依照過去的要先做這個評估我們要做可行性所以評估才會有經費才會有相關的一些可行性整個出來是所以應該循這樣的程序來走是\n130618\t148473\t那我要講的是因為如果現在做這樣的一個做一個這樣的特別條例的方式去做訂定的話看來主要是針對花東這一塊的啦那如果這樣的話那其他每個地方如果都要比照這樣的方式處理的話那國發會或交通部會不會很困擾\n150360\t177548\t主委先講好了主委所以我們還是所有的重大的公共建設也好或者是交通建設我們還是認為就是說循現展因為以交通部來講他們全台灣有一個運輸交通的一個白皮書那現在白皮書規劃出來以後比如說全台灣可能一日生活圈6個小時那怎麼樣我們就一塊一塊拼圖把它做好那循現在的這個所以循相關的程序來走啦\n178328\t195424\t不然以主席的選區臺中很重要高雄這邊也很重要如果每個總共22個縣市啦如果每個縣市都來提一個特別條例來做這個相關的處理的話那我看這個整個也會很亂啦同時間整個行政院包括國發會恐怕也會非常的忙碌這樣是一個適合的方式嗎\n197092\t216945\t對,所以我們才說施政還是有它的這個原來的發展願景,那這個發展願景來講的話就循序漸進所以建設可以持續來推動,但是意向要持續走,那用這樣特別條例不是一個好的方式因為我們全台灣的這個建設的能量也是有它的限制,不可能同時間擴張一倍兩倍這樣來做一些處理\n219306\t236315\t好,那,所以這個,那我再問吼,包括你們也提到你們報告裡面吼,這個相關的權責機構,西部的這邊的高鐵吼,從台北到高雄這一段,是由交通部來負責,那唯獨這樣會變成是,未來這一段是國發會負責嗎?如果這個條例這樣通過,是國發會負責還是交通部來負責?\n241558\t267884\t所以我們才說希望這個所謂的交通建設主管機關還是希望有一致性因為它是單純的交通事項那交通部現在已經有它一個完整的一個藍圖規劃那他們也按照他們的節奏在做一些研究甚至你如果要真的需要的話就會跨到可行性去做研究那研究他會循正常的管道報告行政來我們來做審議協助\n269604\t290529\t所以如果將來要做這樣的建設也應該是走我可行性相關的部分然後由交通部去循這個過去的程序來走就像從過去的高鐵從台北到台中到高雄這樣的方式來進行包括要到用這樣才是一個正辦的方式那如果用採用現在採用這種特別條例的部分國發認為其實不是一個比較好的方式是嗎\n291762\t320228\t對 因為我們覺得就是說已經既有的機制了嘛那這個機制現在看起來就是還算順利就是也沒有什麼自愛難行的地方次長要不要說一下如果這樣的狀況都這樣改的話會不會將來會有點混亂交通部跟國發會各自主導一部分會不會很混亂這部分是會造成一些處理程序上的一些困擾所以次長交通部這邊的意見希望這個統籌是由交通部來處理以相關的程序來辦理嘛 對不對\n321360\t344571\t如果說按照現有的程序我們認為是比較妥適的好 我也要提其實在憲法第70條的時候其實有一條是立法院對行政院所提的預算案不得為增加之出之提議我也認為其實行政跟立法是相互尊重的那我認為如果以這樣的東西不斷通過的話它動輒像這樣加下去當然次長很客氣沒有講\n345111\t363953\t看來可能是一兆兩兆的一個經費的話這恐怕是另外一個變相的由立法院去要求行政院做一個這個支出的一個決議那這樣的時候將來這些的責任是由誰來負擔會很混亂就是說將來這件事情的政策上的一個決策的成敗的負擔由誰會很混亂那每個立委每個選區進香加碼\n365695\t384108\t我認為這個反而造成了行政權跟立法前一些混亂的一些狀況我認為其實不是個好方法我認為還是應該回到由行政機關依相關的審議所立法委員但爭取這幾年我跟好多位委員包括楊俊宏我們爭取到好多的經費都是在尋溝通的角度\n384508\t408116\t去不斷地去協調之後然後說服行政機關那開始的他整個啟動相關程序可行性啦然後等等然後再來編列經費我認為這個才是一個正辦由行政體系來走而立法院做一個建議跟監督的這樣的角度來走我認為這才是正辦如果動輒都是由立法院來發動那不斷地由那這個行政跟立法權會相互混亂掉那將來這件事情的對錯由誰來負責\n411298\t435276\t當時是由立法院通過要求做的那這個責任是應該由誰來負?如果最後發現有很大的一些問題的時候所以我認為不應該新的國會起來要把這個界線還是要拉清楚不然將來那個權力分立的原則整個會破壞掉我認為對整個台灣不見得是個好事情最後一點點我想要用一點時間再問一下我看到昨天有個新聞出來韓國的政府他們看見了風力發電做得很好他們在20300要達到14倍以上\n437879\t457460\t這個包括日本也看到了台灣做了283支的風電他們現在做53日本跟韓國都看到了台灣在風電這邊的速度相當快他們非常認同所以顯見台灣的風電政策是走在正確的道路上而日本韓國都在跟進著台灣主委怎麼來看待這樣的新聞跟未來台灣是不是應該加速整個綠電的推動\n458741\t474561\t是,因為離岸風電從2016年開始我們就積極地開始推動那現在也算是有階段性的一些成果了那現在經濟部也在辦第三階的這個區塊開發的一些相關規劃那我們希望大家也可以盡量往這個方向來進行\n475162\t475182\t好 謝謝\n","txt":"請做詢答我們現場還有兩位委員我們到何信聰委員詢答結束之後我們再休息五分鐘謝謝好 謝謝主席我們請廣儲委跟胡次長我們再請兩位 謝謝\n主委、次長我想這個重大的交通建設想大家都努力在爭取但是其實也要特別提醒不管是藍綠白、朝野各政黨所有重大建設其實都牽扯到了這個資源上的分配還有一些相關我們認為其實都要審慎來做一個思考跟評估就像我還看到這個2019年的時候當時的韓國瑜現在院長當時要選總統的時候他還特別講到了這個高鐵\n應該用長遠的角度來思考,不要造成一個盲藏線的高鐵。主委同不同意類似這樣的看法?\n所有的這個交通建設有地方上的需求然後我們經過可行性評估跟綜合化可行我們就全力來支持所以每一個重大建設都要審慎去做思考跟評估這個才能夠把國家的有限的資源達到最大最大的一個效益我想這是大家的高度的一個共識那依現在因為我看到你報告裡面有提到這個你的第三點裡面有這個提到就是說\n第4點,你的高鐵的經費來源的部分,那我問一下,如果這樣的經費將來要花到多少?現在看來主要是花東段,如果高鐵要還過去的話,因為你已經做到宜蘭也做到屏東,未來這個要不要增加一兆兩兆的經費?\n這個專業上就可能交通部來回答來請次長是跟代委員報告目前我們對於說宜蘭街道街道屏東的中間經過花蓮台東的這段目前我們還沒有做相關的評估還沒有做評估所以要先做依照過去的要先做這個評估我們要做可行性所以評估才會有經費才會有相關的一些可行性整個出來是所以應該循這樣的程序來走是\n那我要講的是因為如果現在做這樣的一個做一個這樣的特別條例的方式去做訂定的話看來主要是針對花東這一塊的啦那如果這樣的話那其他每個地方如果都要比照這樣的方式處理的話那國發會或交通部會不會很困擾\n主委先講好了主委所以我們還是所有的重大的公共建設也好或者是交通建設我們還是認為就是說循現展因為以交通部來講他們全台灣有一個運輸交通的一個白皮書那現在白皮書規劃出來以後比如說全台灣可能一日生活圈6個小時那怎麼樣我們就一塊一塊拼圖把它做好那循現在的這個所以循相關的程序來走啦\n不然以主席的選區臺中很重要高雄這邊也很重要如果每個總共22個縣市啦如果每個縣市都來提一個特別條例來做這個相關的處理的話那我看這個整個也會很亂啦同時間整個行政院包括國發會恐怕也會非常的忙碌這樣是一個適合的方式嗎\n對,所以我們才說施政還是有它的這個原來的發展願景,那這個發展願景來講的話就循序漸進所以建設可以持續來推動,但是意向要持續走,那用這樣特別條例不是一個好的方式因為我們全台灣的這個建設的能量也是有它的限制,不可能同時間擴張一倍兩倍這樣來做一些處理\n好,那,所以這個,那我再問吼,包括你們也提到你們報告裡面吼,這個相關的權責機構,西部的這邊的高鐵吼,從台北到高雄這一段,是由交通部來負責,那唯獨這樣會變成是,未來這一段是國發會負責嗎?如果這個條例這樣通過,是國發會負責還是交通部來負責?\n所以我們才說希望這個所謂的交通建設主管機關還是希望有一致性因為它是單純的交通事項那交通部現在已經有它一個完整的一個藍圖規劃那他們也按照他們的節奏在做一些研究甚至你如果要真的需要的話就會跨到可行性去做研究那研究他會循正常的管道報告行政來我們來做審議協助\n所以如果將來要做這樣的建設也應該是走我可行性相關的部分然後由交通部去循這個過去的程序來走就像從過去的高鐵從台北到台中到高雄這樣的方式來進行包括要到用這樣才是一個正辦的方式那如果用採用現在採用這種特別條例的部分國發認為其實不是一個比較好的方式是嗎\n對 因為我們覺得就是說已經既有的機制了嘛那這個機制現在看起來就是還算順利就是也沒有什麼自愛難行的地方次長要不要說一下如果這樣的狀況都這樣改的話會不會將來會有點混亂交通部跟國發會各自主導一部分會不會很混亂這部分是會造成一些處理程序上的一些困擾所以次長交通部這邊的意見希望這個統籌是由交通部來處理以相關的程序來辦理嘛 對不對\n如果說按照現有的程序我們認為是比較妥適的好 我也要提其實在憲法第70條的時候其實有一條是立法院對行政院所提的預算案不得為增加之出之提議我也認為其實行政跟立法是相互尊重的那我認為如果以這樣的東西不斷通過的話它動輒像這樣加下去當然次長很客氣沒有講\n看來可能是一兆兩兆的一個經費的話這恐怕是另外一個變相的由立法院去要求行政院做一個這個支出的一個決議那這樣的時候將來這些的責任是由誰來負擔會很混亂就是說將來這件事情的政策上的一個決策的成敗的負擔由誰會很混亂那每個立委每個選區進香加碼\n我認為這個反而造成了行政權跟立法前一些混亂的一些狀況我認為其實不是個好方法我認為還是應該回到由行政機關依相關的審議所立法委員但爭取這幾年我跟好多位委員包括楊俊宏我們爭取到好多的經費都是在尋溝通的角度\n去不斷地去協調之後然後說服行政機關那開始的他整個啟動相關程序可行性啦然後等等然後再來編列經費我認為這個才是一個正辦由行政體系來走而立法院做一個建議跟監督的這樣的角度來走我認為這才是正辦如果動輒都是由立法院來發動那不斷地由那這個行政跟立法權會相互混亂掉那將來這件事情的對錯由誰來負責\n當時是由立法院通過要求做的那這個責任是應該由誰來負?如果最後發現有很大的一些問題的時候所以我認為不應該新的國會起來要把這個界線還是要拉清楚不然將來那個權力分立的原則整個會破壞掉我認為對整個台灣不見得是個好事情最後一點點我想要用一點時間再問一下我看到昨天有個新聞出來韓國的政府他們看見了風力發電做得很好他們在20300要達到14倍以上\n這個包括日本也看到了台灣做了283支的風電他們現在做53日本跟韓國都看到了台灣在風電這邊的速度相當快他們非常認同所以顯見台灣的風電政策是走在正確的道路上而日本韓國都在跟進著台灣主委怎麼來看待這樣的新聞跟未來台灣是不是應該加速整個綠電的推動\n是,因為離岸風電從2016年開始我們就積極地開始推動那現在也算是有階段性的一些成果了那現在經濟部也在辦第三階的這個區塊開發的一些相關規劃那我們希望大家也可以盡量往這個方向來進行\n好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.730 --> 00:14.385\n請做詢答我們現場還有兩位委員我們到何信聰委員詢答結束之後我們再休息五分鐘謝謝好謝謝主席我們請廣儲委跟胡次長我們再請兩位謝謝\n\n00:19.819 --> 00:41.396\n主委、次長我想這個重大的交通建設想大家都努力在爭取但是其實也要特別提醒不管是藍綠白、朝野各政黨所有重大建設其實都牽扯到了這個資源上的分配還有一些相關我們認為其實都要審慎來做一個思考跟評估就像我還看到這個2019年的時候當時的韓國瑜現在院長當時要選總統的時候他還特別講到了這個高鐵\n\n00:48.202 --> 00:56.138\n應該用長遠的角度來思考,不要造成一個盲藏線的高鐵。主委同不同意類似這樣的看法?\n\n00:57.901 --> 01:25.116\n所有的這個交通建設有地方上的需求然後我們經過可行性評估跟綜合化可行我們就全力來支持所以每一個重大建設都要審慎去做思考跟評估這個才能夠把國家的有限的資源達到最大最大的一個效益我想這是大家的高度的一個共識那依現在因為我看到你報告裡面有提到這個你的第三點裡面有這個提到就是說\n\n01:26.276 --> 01:42.307\n第4點,你的高鐵的經費來源的部分,那我問一下,如果這樣的經費將來要花到多少?現在看來主要是花東段,如果高鐵要還過去的話,因為你已經做到宜蘭也做到屏東,未來這個要不要增加一兆兩兆的經費?\n\n01:45.455 --> 02:10.258\n這個專業上就可能交通部來回答來請次長是跟代委員報告目前我們對於說宜蘭街道街道屏東的中間經過花蓮台東的這段目前我們還沒有做相關的評估還沒有做評估所以要先做依照過去的要先做這個評估我們要做可行性所以評估才會有經費才會有相關的一些可行性整個出來是所以應該循這樣的程序來走是\n\n02:10.618 --> 02:28.473\n那我要講的是因為如果現在做這樣的一個做一個這樣的特別條例的方式去做訂定的話看來主要是針對花東這一塊的啦那如果這樣的話那其他每個地方如果都要比照這樣的方式處理的話那國發會或交通部會不會很困擾\n\n02:30.360 --> 02:57.548\n主委先講好了主委所以我們還是所有的重大的公共建設也好或者是交通建設我們還是認為就是說循現展因為以交通部來講他們全台灣有一個運輸交通的一個白皮書那現在白皮書規劃出來以後比如說全台灣可能一日生活圈6個小時那怎麼樣我們就一塊一塊拼圖把它做好那循現在的這個所以循相關的程序來走啦\n\n02:58.328 --> 03:15.424\n不然以主席的選區臺中很重要高雄這邊也很重要如果每個總共22個縣市啦如果每個縣市都來提一個特別條例來做這個相關的處理的話那我看這個整個也會很亂啦同時間整個行政院包括國發會恐怕也會非常的忙碌這樣是一個適合的方式嗎\n\n03:17.092 --> 03:36.945\n對,所以我們才說施政還是有它的這個原來的發展願景,那這個發展願景來講的話就循序漸進所以建設可以持續來推動,但是意向要持續走,那用這樣特別條例不是一個好的方式因為我們全台灣的這個建設的能量也是有它的限制,不可能同時間擴張一倍兩倍這樣來做一些處理\n\n03:39.306 --> 03:56.315\n好,那,所以這個,那我再問吼,包括你們也提到你們報告裡面吼,這個相關的權責機構,西部的這邊的高鐵吼,從台北到高雄這一段,是由交通部來負責,那唯獨這樣會變成是,未來這一段是國發會負責嗎?如果這個條例這樣通過,是國發會負責還是交通部來負責?\n\n04:01.558 --> 04:27.884\n所以我們才說希望這個所謂的交通建設主管機關還是希望有一致性因為它是單純的交通事項那交通部現在已經有它一個完整的一個藍圖規劃那他們也按照他們的節奏在做一些研究甚至你如果要真的需要的話就會跨到可行性去做研究那研究他會循正常的管道報告行政來我們來做審議協助\n\n04:29.604 --> 04:50.529\n所以如果將來要做這樣的建設也應該是走我可行性相關的部分然後由交通部去循這個過去的程序來走就像從過去的高鐵從台北到台中到高雄這樣的方式來進行包括要到用這樣才是一個正辦的方式那如果用採用現在採用這種特別條例的部分國發認為其實不是一個比較好的方式是嗎\n\n04:51.762 --> 05:20.228\n對因為我們覺得就是說已經既有的機制了嘛那這個機制現在看起來就是還算順利就是也沒有什麼自愛難行的地方次長要不要說一下如果這樣的狀況都這樣改的話會不會將來會有點混亂交通部跟國發會各自主導一部分會不會很混亂這部分是會造成一些處理程序上的一些困擾所以次長交通部這邊的意見希望這個統籌是由交通部來處理以相關的程序來辦理嘛對不對\n\n05:21.360 --> 05:44.571\n如果說按照現有的程序我們認為是比較妥適的好我也要提其實在憲法第70條的時候其實有一條是立法院對行政院所提的預算案不得為增加之出之提議我也認為其實行政跟立法是相互尊重的那我認為如果以這樣的東西不斷通過的話它動輒像這樣加下去當然次長很客氣沒有講\n\n05:45.111 --> 06:03.953\n看來可能是一兆兩兆的一個經費的話這恐怕是另外一個變相的由立法院去要求行政院做一個這個支出的一個決議那這樣的時候將來這些的責任是由誰來負擔會很混亂就是說將來這件事情的政策上的一個決策的成敗的負擔由誰會很混亂那每個立委每個選區進香加碼\n\n06:05.695 --> 06:24.108\n我認為這個反而造成了行政權跟立法前一些混亂的一些狀況我認為其實不是個好方法我認為還是應該回到由行政機關依相關的審議所立法委員但爭取這幾年我跟好多位委員包括楊俊宏我們爭取到好多的經費都是在尋溝通的角度\n\n06:24.508 --> 06:48.116\n去不斷地去協調之後然後說服行政機關那開始的他整個啟動相關程序可行性啦然後等等然後再來編列經費我認為這個才是一個正辦由行政體系來走而立法院做一個建議跟監督的這樣的角度來走我認為這才是正辦如果動輒都是由立法院來發動那不斷地由那這個行政跟立法權會相互混亂掉那將來這件事情的對錯由誰來負責\n\n06:51.298 --> 07:15.276\n當時是由立法院通過要求做的那這個責任是應該由誰來負?如果最後發現有很大的一些問題的時候所以我認為不應該新的國會起來要把這個界線還是要拉清楚不然將來那個權力分立的原則整個會破壞掉我認為對整個台灣不見得是個好事情最後一點點我想要用一點時間再問一下我看到昨天有個新聞出來韓國的政府他們看見了風力發電做得很好他們在20300要達到14倍以上\n\n07:17.879 --> 07:37.460\n這個包括日本也看到了台灣做了283支的風電他們現在做53日本跟韓國都看到了台灣在風電這邊的速度相當快他們非常認同所以顯見台灣的風電政策是走在正確的道路上而日本韓國都在跟進著台灣主委怎麼來看待這樣的新聞跟未來台灣是不是應該加速整個綠電的推動\n\n07:38.741 --> 07:54.561\n是,因為離岸風電從2016年開始我們就積極地開始推動那現在也算是有階段性的一些成果了那現在經濟部也在辦第三階的這個區塊開發的一些相關規劃那我們希望大家也可以盡量往這個方向來進行\n\n07:55.162 --> 07:55.182\n好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.73,"end":14.385,"text":"請做詢答我們現場還有兩位委員我們到何信聰委員詢答結束之後我們再休息五分鐘謝謝好 謝謝主席我們請廣儲委跟胡次長我們再請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":19.819,"end":41.396,"text":"主委、次長我想這個重大的交通建設想大家都努力在爭取但是其實也要特別提醒不管是藍綠白、朝野各政黨所有重大建設其實都牽扯到了這個資源上的分配還有一些相關我們認為其實都要審慎來做一個思考跟評估就像我還看到這個2019年的時候當時的韓國瑜現在院長當時要選總統的時候他還特別講到了這個高鐵"},{"start":48.202,"end":56.138,"text":"應該用長遠的角度來思考,不要造成一個盲藏線的高鐵。主委同不同意類似這樣的看法?"},{"start":57.901,"end":85.116,"text":"所有的這個交通建設有地方上的需求然後我們經過可行性評估跟綜合化可行我們就全力來支持所以每一個重大建設都要審慎去做思考跟評估這個才能夠把國家的有限的資源達到最大最大的一個效益我想這是大家的高度的一個共識那依現在因為我看到你報告裡面有提到這個你的第三點裡面有這個提到就是說"},{"start":86.276,"end":102.307,"text":"第4點,你的高鐵的經費來源的部分,那我問一下,如果這樣的經費將來要花到多少?現在看來主要是花東段,如果高鐵要還過去的話,因為你已經做到宜蘭也做到屏東,未來這個要不要增加一兆兩兆的經費?"},{"start":105.455,"end":130.258,"text":"這個專業上就可能交通部來回答來請次長是跟代委員報告目前我們對於說宜蘭街道街道屏東的中間經過花蓮台東的這段目前我們還沒有做相關的評估還沒有做評估所以要先做依照過去的要先做這個評估我們要做可行性所以評估才會有經費才會有相關的一些可行性整個出來是所以應該循這樣的程序來走是"},{"start":130.618,"end":148.473,"text":"那我要講的是因為如果現在做這樣的一個做一個這樣的特別條例的方式去做訂定的話看來主要是針對花東這一塊的啦那如果這樣的話那其他每個地方如果都要比照這樣的方式處理的話那國發會或交通部會不會很困擾"},{"start":150.36,"end":177.548,"text":"主委先講好了主委所以我們還是所有的重大的公共建設也好或者是交通建設我們還是認為就是說循現展因為以交通部來講他們全台灣有一個運輸交通的一個白皮書那現在白皮書規劃出來以後比如說全台灣可能一日生活圈6個小時那怎麼樣我們就一塊一塊拼圖把它做好那循現在的這個所以循相關的程序來走啦"},{"start":178.328,"end":195.424,"text":"不然以主席的選區臺中很重要高雄這邊也很重要如果每個總共22個縣市啦如果每個縣市都來提一個特別條例來做這個相關的處理的話那我看這個整個也會很亂啦同時間整個行政院包括國發會恐怕也會非常的忙碌這樣是一個適合的方式嗎"},{"start":197.092,"end":216.945,"text":"對,所以我們才說施政還是有它的這個原來的發展願景,那這個發展願景來講的話就循序漸進所以建設可以持續來推動,但是意向要持續走,那用這樣特別條例不是一個好的方式因為我們全台灣的這個建設的能量也是有它的限制,不可能同時間擴張一倍兩倍這樣來做一些處理"},{"start":219.306,"end":236.315,"text":"好,那,所以這個,那我再問吼,包括你們也提到你們報告裡面吼,這個相關的權責機構,西部的這邊的高鐵吼,從台北到高雄這一段,是由交通部來負責,那唯獨這樣會變成是,未來這一段是國發會負責嗎?如果這個條例這樣通過,是國發會負責還是交通部來負責?"},{"start":241.558,"end":267.884,"text":"所以我們才說希望這個所謂的交通建設主管機關還是希望有一致性因為它是單純的交通事項那交通部現在已經有它一個完整的一個藍圖規劃那他們也按照他們的節奏在做一些研究甚至你如果要真的需要的話就會跨到可行性去做研究那研究他會循正常的管道報告行政來我們來做審議協助"},{"start":269.604,"end":290.529,"text":"所以如果將來要做這樣的建設也應該是走我可行性相關的部分然後由交通部去循這個過去的程序來走就像從過去的高鐵從台北到台中到高雄這樣的方式來進行包括要到用這樣才是一個正辦的方式那如果用採用現在採用這種特別條例的部分國發認為其實不是一個比較好的方式是嗎"},{"start":291.762,"end":320.228,"text":"對 因為我們覺得就是說已經既有的機制了嘛那這個機制現在看起來就是還算順利就是也沒有什麼自愛難行的地方次長要不要說一下如果這樣的狀況都這樣改的話會不會將來會有點混亂交通部跟國發會各自主導一部分會不會很混亂這部分是會造成一些處理程序上的一些困擾所以次長交通部這邊的意見希望這個統籌是由交通部來處理以相關的程序來辦理嘛 對不對"},{"start":321.36,"end":344.571,"text":"如果說按照現有的程序我們認為是比較妥適的好 我也要提其實在憲法第70條的時候其實有一條是立法院對行政院所提的預算案不得為增加之出之提議我也認為其實行政跟立法是相互尊重的那我認為如果以這樣的東西不斷通過的話它動輒像這樣加下去當然次長很客氣沒有講"},{"start":345.111,"end":363.953,"text":"看來可能是一兆兩兆的一個經費的話這恐怕是另外一個變相的由立法院去要求行政院做一個這個支出的一個決議那這樣的時候將來這些的責任是由誰來負擔會很混亂就是說將來這件事情的政策上的一個決策的成敗的負擔由誰會很混亂那每個立委每個選區進香加碼"},{"start":365.695,"end":384.108,"text":"我認為這個反而造成了行政權跟立法前一些混亂的一些狀況我認為其實不是個好方法我認為還是應該回到由行政機關依相關的審議所立法委員但爭取這幾年我跟好多位委員包括楊俊宏我們爭取到好多的經費都是在尋溝通的角度"},{"start":384.508,"end":408.116,"text":"去不斷地去協調之後然後說服行政機關那開始的他整個啟動相關程序可行性啦然後等等然後再來編列經費我認為這個才是一個正辦由行政體系來走而立法院做一個建議跟監督的這樣的角度來走我認為這才是正辦如果動輒都是由立法院來發動那不斷地由那這個行政跟立法權會相互混亂掉那將來這件事情的對錯由誰來負責"},{"start":411.298,"end":435.276,"text":"當時是由立法院通過要求做的那這個責任是應該由誰來負?如果最後發現有很大的一些問題的時候所以我認為不應該新的國會起來要把這個界線還是要拉清楚不然將來那個權力分立的原則整個會破壞掉我認為對整個台灣不見得是個好事情最後一點點我想要用一點時間再問一下我看到昨天有個新聞出來韓國的政府他們看見了風力發電做得很好他們在20300要達到14倍以上"},{"start":437.879,"end":457.46,"text":"這個包括日本也看到了台灣做了283支的風電他們現在做53日本跟韓國都看到了台灣在風電這邊的速度相當快他們非常認同所以顯見台灣的風電政策是走在正確的道路上而日本韓國都在跟進著台灣主委怎麼來看待這樣的新聞跟未來台灣是不是應該加速整個綠電的推動"},{"start":458.741,"end":474.561,"text":"是,因為離岸風電從2016年開始我們就積極地開始推動那現在也算是有階段性的一些成果了那現在經濟部也在辦第三階的這個區塊開發的一些相關規劃那我們希望大家也可以盡量往這個方向來進行"},{"start":475.162,"end":475.182,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}}}}