{"id":150737,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150737","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c07f6cae704d78792c9e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a67a419371ec2b560b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:46:34 - 10:59:30","影片長度":"00:12:56","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":776,"end_time":"2024-04-01T10:59:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T10:46:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":434,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時46分）謝謝主席，有請我們立法院周萬來秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有司法院書記廳廳長。"],["主席：好，請廳長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有法務部陳明堂次長。"],["主席：好，請陳次長上臺。"],["周秘書長萬來：周委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝秘書長，還有兩位列席的官員。我先讓大家來回憶一個影片，來看看一個新的法要推出，各黨的反應會是怎麼樣，然後他的反應到底值不值得大家來做討論。我先讓大家看一段2016年的時候，民進黨提出版本，甚至本席也提出版本，當初國民黨政策會執行長賴士葆委員、我尊敬的委員他的想法。","（播放影片）"],["莊委員瑞雄：賴士葆委員講得非常平和，這也是當初民進黨提出版本跟本席提出版本時，我再去反省的地方。另外，國民黨立法委員林德福委員，當初他的講法是說這可能涉及到個資法的問題，法官、檢察官都不能這樣管到個人，立法權都不能擴張無限大，就算是個人有犯法，也是由司法檢調系統處理，輪不到你立委。這是林德福委員所說，這是在第9屆2016年時，他還私底下跟我說：「你們真的要這麼做嗎？我們立法院真的有那麼大？」我跟他說，我們再討論看看，這是在第9屆的時候。在第8屆的時候，我相信林佳龍委員當初在當立法委員的時候也有提出類似這樣一個版本。","本席為什麼今天要提出這些來就教周秘書長、陳次長、還有書記廳廳長，能做書記廳廳長，都是很厲害的，你知道嗎？法學素養都非常深厚。也就是說，大家一直在講說大法官、大法官、大法官會議，有時候是講大法官，大法官是很大的，38年第1號釋憲解釋就已經出來了，為什麼他大？大家一直在講說大法官統一解釋憲法以及法律跟命令到底有沒有牴觸，這個都專屬他的權限，從過去整個威權時代，當時就是威權，政府、總統一黨獨大，說要怎樣就要怎樣，所以大家甚至說大法官不只是叫做「憲法的守護神」，還叫「人權的守護者」，到現在大家都這樣講。為什麼他大？甚至大過於法律，就算你法院三審判決已經確定了，有人聲請大法官釋憲，說你這個適用法律有所違背的話，甚至確定判決，都可以來聲請再審跟非常上訴。好了，確定判決都可以當做不算，被當成一個救濟的理由，大法官都可以來救濟，甚至你一個政黨違憲，也可以把你給解散掉，總統、副總統都可以來做彈劾，這個就是他尊崇的地位。","我們今天來看看大法官會議解釋第585號裡面講到「立法院調查權行使之方式，並不以要求有關機關就立法院行使職權所涉及事項提供參考資料或向有關機關調閱文件原本之文件調閱權為限」，也就是說，立法院當然要有調閱權，立法院本來就可以有調查權，這整個權限才會完整，這個到現在來看的話，雖然國民黨有好像看起來是進步的法案，跟2016年、2012年的民進黨法案一樣，我還是表達贊同，國會要有這個調查權，但問題是說這個界限到什麼地方？立法院不是說你要怎樣就可以怎樣，你去看看釋字第585號解釋到最後跟你講說「並得對違反協助調查義務者，於科處罰鍰之範圍內，施以合理之強制手段」，也就是說，最高手段叫做你只能罰鍰而已，到這裡而已，2016年到最後為什麼民進黨多數卻沒辦法通過？蔡英文揭示的是人民的國會、改革的國會、開放的國會，我也都知道，但就是社會沒有共識，當初是這樣來的，不然要通過，我們多數就通過了，大家還是要反省嘛！","所以我的意思就是說，我們去看看、後來事後去討論，大法官會議的解釋很明文地跟我們這樣講，最高手段就是科處罰鍰、違憲。甚至於整個大法官會議解釋裡面的微言大義是在講說：「必須符合民主原則。其個案調查事項之範圍，不能違反權力分立與制衡原則，亦不得侵害其他憲法機關之權力核心範圍，或對其他憲法機關權力之行使造成實質妨礙。如就各項調查方法所規定之程序，有涉及限制人民權利者」，夭壽喔！「必須符合憲法上比例原則、法律明確性原則及正當法律程序之要求」。今天這一些事項哪有像國民黨委員講的：「這都跟憲法沒關係」？這每一條都跟憲法有關係，怎麼跟憲法會沒有關係？次長，不是這樣子嗎？"],["陳次長明堂：其實如委員所說的，第585號解釋的第二段就講到這個問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：真的。"],["陳次長明堂：要有憲法上的明確性、比例原則、正當法律等等這些的要求。"],["莊委員瑞雄：大法官、司法院不是不能挑戰，他們也是人，怎麼不能挑戰？只是提到那個職務時，當初我也一直google，為什麼他當初要叫做大法官？我到現在還搞不清楚為什麼名字要叫「大法官」？但是確實他權限就很大，大到本席剛剛所提到的那一些。召委本身也是學法，這個界限其實大家都要守住，它在講的就是這個社會有沒有共識。民進黨到現在的版本，我跟召委報告，我們現在版本一改再改、一直改。我秀我的版本給你看，當年國會改革的版本我也有啊，我跟顧立雄的版本就是我主提的，我們也有反省啊，就是說要到哪裡，那個手段最高能到什麼地方，我們認為沒有共識就推下來，召委，不是我們不會過，是大家去想到說這個界限範圍到哪裡，你這個法律規範的射程到哪裡，像國民黨現在的版本，不是只有政府機關喔！你看司法人、一般老百姓，當然召委講說那個不是你的版本，但國民黨版本你也很清楚，真的我們立法院的射程有辦法這樣規範，國會大到把公司行號、中小企業（臺灣百分之九十幾全部都是中小企業）全部都找過來，到最後不給我據實陳述，決議完就罰鍰、移送檢調，開什麼玩笑！檢察官膽敢如此，立法院一定跳出來說你都濫權，竟然我們自己要立這樣的法律，想起來我就怕，你知道嗎？要慎思。","召委，我們兩個都是學法律的，我們不要亂，這個部分有太多的政治口水。你說大法官當然有時候他也會介入，他也會有很多政治性的啦！像當年我們在討論同婚，本來大法官會議針對整個婚姻制度作出幾號解釋，到最後自己也把它推翻掉、說不行，現在可以同婚，大家都可以組成幸福的家庭，大家認為這是進步的喔！可是這一件事情，如果說我們今天立法通過的話，把老百姓也可以找到國會來，沒有聽我立法院的，到最後立法院就作成決議罰錢30萬，不然嘿嘿，藐視國會，還可以抓去關，立法院到時候會被人家吐口水，我跟你們說，各政黨真的要小心。當年你可以去講說我們大家共同來思考，讓國會改革可以更進步，讓國會的調查權、讓國會整個權限更完整，這個都好事嘛！但問題就是說，當我們超過半數的時候、絕對多數的時候，秘書長，我們也不敢做，你知不知道？秘書長你今年幾歲了？"],["周秘書長萬來：我72歲。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟你講，所以我尊重你們就是這樣，你們這叫做國之老臣，也不一定是哪一個黨派的，該守住的界線還是要守住，大家都要去集思廣益。一個政黨是多大？立法委員可以幹多久？沒這種事，那個底線，國家這個法制，連這部憲法是從中國那邊帶過來，38年第一次釋憲到現在，現在幾號了？七百幾了，好久沒有念書了，也不曉得幾號了，我的意思就是說這樣幾號一直下來、一直下來、一直下來，這是為什麼？就是不管是誰當家、誰威權、誰極權，至少有這個憲法，就是人民權利的一個保障，大法官會議你們大家都不遵守，不管它，誰最大？我們來聯手、來弄一個法律懲罰人民，很爽。不能為了跟民進黨這個執政黨去對抗，然後把我們該守的憲法的底線把它給逾越了，還是要有社會共識，表決如果會過，我們也是尊重你們，我跟你保證到時候你會被人家「訐譙」，我跟你說。","但是對於本院的一些興革事項，我也要來請教我們秘書長，次長跟廳長請回。秘書長我簡單地問，我們2月份政府機關的資安聯防的情資裡面，你看我們被攻擊的部分差不多就四萬多件，資訊蒐集的部分29%，入侵嘗試類的差不多21%，入侵攻擊類15%，像這些來講，臺灣資安大聯盟也拜會了立法院的3個黨團，大家也應該有一個共識，我們為了確保有效地推動整個資通安全的維護事項，現在公務機關都置一個資通安全長……"],["周秘書長萬來：對，資安長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：就這個部分，我要聽你的看法，對我們立法院裡面的資通安全，我們現在當然有啦！資訊系統規劃、設計、分析、建置、維護，這些有啊，我現在說安全的部分，我要聽你的講法，秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為我知道你們版本有資安長，立法院現在資安是由副秘書長兼任，因為有涉及維安各方面都是副秘書長的權責，你們版本來我要看一下到底資安的職掌到底是什麼，我們會再研議看看。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們現在很怕一些東西外流、駭客，就是說我們要怎麼把我們的資通安全，強化我們立法院的資安韌性，有效去強化整個資通安全的維護，我相信這個有待周秘書長全面性地做一個規劃，然後把這些執行資通安全的業務做得更完善，不然國會的議事運作，資通安全這個部分，我覺得秘書長要好好加強。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝、謝謝，因為你們版本有，我已經看到新聞稿，我也特別去瞭解一下。謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：大家支持，把立法院的整個資安韌性建立起來，我相信這個沒有人會反對啦，好不好？"],["周秘書長萬來：好，謝謝你。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們接下來請羅智強委員發言，羅委員發言結束後，依照剛剛的宣示，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","劉建國"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊\n瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院\n職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四\n條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條\n之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五\n條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中\n華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案；\n三、審查(一)委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(三)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案【僅進\n行詢答】","agenda_id":"1132301_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"150737","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150737","tool":"pyannote","id":"150737-pyannote"},"job_id":"s1oNE4m9qaHKXlIU","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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{\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 718.032, \"end\": 718.553, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 718.553, \"end\": 718.693, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 718.693, \"end\": 718.893, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"治\", \"start\": 718.893, \"end\": 719.033, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 719.033, \"end\": 719.233, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 719.233, \"end\": 720.533, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 720.533, \"end\": 720.713, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 720.713, \"end\": 722.274, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 722.274, \"end\": 722.454, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 722.454, \"end\": 722.594, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 722.594, \"end\": 722.754, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 722.754, \"end\": 723.334, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 723.334, \"end\": 723.514, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 723.514, \"end\": 723.915, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 723.915, \"end\": 724.095, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"演\", \"start\": 724.095, \"end\": 724.455, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"繹\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 724.455, \"end\": 724.675, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 724.675, \"end\": 724.695, \"score\": 0.995}]}, {\"start\": 725.609, \"end\": 745.604, \"text\": \"我們現在很怕一些東西外流害客就是說我們要怎麼把我們的資通安全強化我們立法院這樣的一個治安的一個韌性這個有效去強化這整個資通安全的一個維護我相信這個有待這個周秘書長全面性的做一個規劃然後把這些執行資通安全的一個業務把它做一個更完善或國會的議事運作\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 725.609, \"end\": 725.689, \"score\": 0.609}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 725.689, \"end\": 725.969, \"score\": 0.636}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 725.969, \"end\": 726.069, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"怕\", \"start\": 726.069, 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{\"word\": \"效\", \"start\": 737.298, \"end\": 737.458, \"score\": 0.716}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 737.458, \"end\": 737.838, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 737.838, \"end\": 738.219, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 738.219, \"end\": 738.599, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 738.599, \"end\": 738.739, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 738.739, \"end\": 738.899, \"score\": 0.683}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 738.899, \"end\": 739.039, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 739.039, \"end\": 739.119, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 739.119, \"end\": 740.08, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 740.08, \"end\": 740.18, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 740.18, \"end\": 740.36, \"score\": 0.7}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 740.36, \"end\": 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743.543, \"score\": 0.472}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 743.543, \"end\": 743.623, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 743.623, \"end\": 743.723, \"score\": 0.655}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 743.723, \"end\": 743.883, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 743.883, \"end\": 743.903, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 743.903, \"end\": 744.403, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 744.403, \"end\": 744.423, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 744.423, \"end\": 744.523, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 744.523, \"end\": 744.543, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 744.543, \"end\": 744.684, \"score\": 0.587}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 744.684, \"end\": 744.864, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 744.864, \"end\": 744.884, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 744.884, \"end\": 744.984, \"score\": 0.643}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 744.984, \"end\": 745.124, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 745.124, \"end\": 745.204, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 745.204, \"end\": 745.224, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 745.224, \"end\": 745.424, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 745.424, \"end\": 745.544, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 745.544, \"end\": 745.564, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 745.564, \"end\": 745.584, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 745.584, \"end\": 745.604, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"楊\"}, {\"word\": \"瓊\"}, {\"word\": \"瓔\"}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 754.713, \"end\": 754.813, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 754.813, \"end\": 754.893, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"擬\"}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 754.893, \"end\": 754.913, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,210 --> 00:00:04,592\n稍後在羅志強委員訓導完畢之後,我們休息五分鐘。謝謝主席,有請我們立法院周萬來秘書長。請周秘書長。我們司法院,書記聽聽長好不好。\n\n2\n00:00:49,949 --> 00:01:13,576\n回憶一個影片來看看一個法新的法要推出以後各黨的反應會是怎麼樣然後他的反應到底值不值得大家來做討論那我先讓大家看一段這個16年的時候民進黨提出版本甚至本席也提出版本當初國民黨政策會執行長賴世保委員這我尊敬的委員他的想法\n\n3\n00:01:14,907 --> 00:01:39,649\n除非先修憲把監察院整個監察權拿掉因為你部分的調查官員調查人民也好那這些來講的話都基本上都是監察院在行使的一定感覺說立法院是在擴權這個賴司法委員講得非常平和啦這個也當初啊民進黨提出的版本跟本席提出版本的時候啊我再去反省的地方另外啊\n\n4\n00:01:42,609 --> 00:02:07,362\n國民黨的立法委員林德福委員他當初他的講法是說這可能涉及到各執法的問題法官檢察官都不能這樣管治到個人立法權都不能擴張無限大就算是個人有犯法也是由司法檢調系統處理輪不到你立委這林德福委員這在大陸在1996年的時候他還在書店跟我說你真的要這樣寵\n\n5\n00:02:11,833 --> 00:02:15,996\n二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具«立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n6\n00:02:41,189 --> 00:03:08,407\n大家一直在講說大法官大法官大法官會議啊有誰要講大法官有誰要講大法官大法官是很大的啊三十八年第一號釋憲解釋就已經出來了那為什麼他大大家一直在講說大法官同意解釋憲法解釋憲法的法律跟命令到底有沒有抵觸這個都專屬他的權限我們還從過去整個威權時代啊有的多因為那時候都那時候都\n\n7\n00:03:09,207 --> 00:03:35,284\n威權、政府、總統、一黨獨大說要怎樣就要怎樣。所以大家甚至把大法官就說,你叫做不只是憲法的守護神,你還叫人權的守護者。到現在大家也這樣說。那為什麼他大?他就大到你的法律,就算你法院三審判決已經確定了有人申請大法官釋憲,所以你說這個適用法律有所違背的話,甚至那個確定判決都可以來申請再審跟非常上訴。好啦。\n\n8\n00:03:37,492 --> 00:03:37,612\n二）委員傅崐萁\n\n9\n00:03:53,743 --> 00:04:20,267\n大光輝解釋558號裡面他去講到說立法院調查權的行使的方式並不以要求有權機關就立法行使立法權行使權所涉及的事項提供參考資料或向有關機關調位文件原本的文件調位權違憲也就是說立法院當然要有調閱權立法院本來就可以有調查權這整個權限才會完整嘛\n\n10\n00:04:21,168 --> 00:04:29,938\n這個到現在來看的話雖然國民黨有更好像看起來是進步的法案跟16年到12年民進黨法案一樣我還是表達贊同國會要有這個調查權但問題是說這個界限到什麼地方啊立法院不是說你要安坐就可以安坐捏你去看看喔\n\n11\n00:04:43,222 --> 00:05:00,217\n四字五八五解釋他到最後跟你講說並得對違反協助調查義務者於科處罰款的範圍內施以合理的強制手段也就是說最高手段說叫做你只能罰款而已啦到這裡而已16年到最後為什麼民進黨多數沒辦法通過\n\n12\n00:05:06,348 --> 00:05:25,939\n蔡英文揭示的是人民的國會、改革的國會、開放的國會啊。我們也都知道啊。但是就是社會沒有共識啊。當初是這樣來的啊。不然要過一個多數我們就過啊。大家還是要反省嘛。所以我的意思就是說我們去看看我們後來事後去討論大法官會議解釋就很明文的跟我們這樣講。\n\n13\n00:05:27,759 --> 00:05:47,466\n你最高手段就是科處華環違憲甚至於整個大法公會議解釋裡面的危言大義是在講說你必須要去符合民主原則各案的調查事項的範圍你不能去違反權力分立跟制衡的原則也不得侵害其他憲法機關的權力核心範圍\n\n14\n00:05:48,826 --> 00:06:13,281\n或對其他憲法機關權利的行使造成實質妨礙如就各項調查方法所規定的程序有涉及限制人民權利者要求必須要符合憲法的比例原則法律明確性跟正當法律程序的要求今天這一些事項哪有說像國民黨委員講的這都跟憲法無關的這特條嘛跟憲法有關的跟憲法太無關的市長不是這樣子嗎\n\n15\n00:06:17,362 --> 00:06:34,221\n其實如委員所說的啦,那到585號解釋的第二段就講到這個問題。真的?要有這個憲法上的明確性、比例言者、政黨法律等等這些的要求。大法官司法院不是不能挑戰,你也人他不能挑戰,只是那個職務的時候,\n\n16\n00:06:36,083 --> 00:07:05,007\n當初我也一直在搜尋我為什麼當初要叫做大法官我到現在也搜不出為什麼他命要做大法官但是他確實權限就很大嘛大到我本期剛所提到的那一些嘛所以張偉南本身也是學法啦這個界線齁其實大家都要守住啦他其實在講的就是說這個社會有沒有共識民進黨到現在版本齁我跟著我報告我現在的版本齁我再蓋再蓋再一直蓋我秀我的版本給你看啦\n\n17\n00:07:05,885 --> 00:07:10,787\n我當年國會改革的版本我也有啊我跟顧立雄就是主題的啊我也有反省啊就是我們要搞對的那個手段最高能到什麼地方我們認為沒有共識就推下來稍微不是我們賣過是大家去想到說這個界限範圍到哪裡你這個法律規範要去設成到哪裡像國民黨現在的版本是不只是政府機關喔\n\n18\n00:07:36,161 --> 00:07:55,106\n你看司法人一般老百姓當然趙偉有講說那個不是你的版本啦齁但國民黨版本你也很清楚嘛真的我們立法院我們設成有辦法這樣規範國會大道把公私行號台灣中小企業百分之九十起全部都去中小企業捏我全部都給你調來搞不好嘿嘿不給我據實陳述決議完罰完\n\n19\n00:08:03,086 --> 00:08:05,987\n一送檢調那開什麼玩笑嘛檢察官膽敢如此立法院一定跳出來說你這都爛權那竟然我們自己要立這樣的一個法律我想起來我就怕你知道嗎要善施啊稍微我們兩個都噁心了我們不可以要亂了這個部分有太多的政治口水\n\n20\n00:08:26,704 --> 00:08:37,570\n因為大法官當然有時候他也會介入啦他也會很多政治性的啦就像當年我們在討論同婚本來大法官會議針對整個婚姻制度做出幾套解釋他到最後也自己把他推翻掉啊他說不行\n\n21\n00:09:01,391 --> 00:09:01,591\n議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具\n\n22\n00:09:30,839 --> 00:09:31,960\n五）委員\n\n23\n00:09:51,041 --> 00:09:56,649\n那個底線齁國家這個法制齁連這部憲法是從中國那邊帶過來38年第一次釋憲到現在現在幾乎七百幾了齁\n\n24\n00:10:01,107 --> 00:10:06,311\n您好久沒有念書了,也不曉得幾號了。我的意思就是說,這樣幾號一直下來、一直下來、一直下來,就是為什麼?就是不管是誰當家、誰威權、誰集權,至少有這個憲法,就是做人民權利的一個保障嘛。大法官會,你們大家都不要跟主席說什麼人最大,我們來聯手,我們來做這個法律,來懲罰人民,很爽。\n\n25\n00:10:25,134 --> 00:10:28,236\n不能為了跟民進黨這個執政黨去對抗然後把我們該守的憲法的一個底線把它給預約了還是要有社會共識不要管哪個鬼我也給你尊重啊你保證到時你就被人趕走我跟你講但是呢對於本院的一些心格事項啊我也要來請教我們秘書長就是說兩位我們那個次長跟廳長請回喔\n\n26\n00:10:50,894 --> 00:11:03,445\n議長我簡單的問啦就是我們二月份政府機關的那個資安聯訪的一個情資裡面啊你看被攻擊的部分你看到它的四萬幾件資訊收集的部分29%入侵嘗試類的差不多21%入侵攻擊類15%像這些來講喔台灣資安大聯盟也敗壞了立法院的三個黨團啦\n\n27\n00:11:11,112 --> 00:11:12,032\n議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉\n\n28\n00:11:39,385 --> 00:12:04,695\n因為我知道你們版本有治安長是立法院現在是治安是由副名長兼任由副名長兼任治安因為有涉及維安各方面都是副名長他的權利但是你們版本我來看一下到底治安的這個他的職長到底是什麼那我們會再演繹看看\n\n29\n00:12:05,609 --> 00:12:25,604\n我們現在很怕一些東西外流害客就是說我們要怎麼把我們的資通安全強化我們立法院這樣的一個治安的一個韌性這個有效去強化這整個資通安全的一個維護我相信這個有待這個周秘書長全面性的做一個規劃然後把這些執行資通安全的一個業務把它做一個更完善或國會的議事運作\n\n30\n00:12:34,713 --> 00:12:34,913\n議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1210\t4592\t稍後在羅志強委員訓導完畢之後,我們休息五分鐘。謝謝主席,有請我們立法院周萬來秘書長。請周秘書長。我們司法院,書記聽聽長好不好。\n31800\t49684\t議員楊瓊瓊\n49949\t73576\t回憶一個影片來看看一個法新的法要推出以後各黨的反應會是怎麼樣然後他的反應到底值不值得大家來做討論那我先讓大家看一段這個16年的時候民進黨提出版本甚至本席也提出版本當初國民黨政策會執行長賴世保委員這我尊敬的委員他的想法\n74907\t99649\t除非先修憲把監察院整個監察權拿掉因為你部分的調查官員調查人民也好那這些來講的話都基本上都是監察院在行使的一定感覺說立法院是在擴權這個賴司法委員講得非常平和啦這個也當初啊民進黨提出的版本跟本席提出版本的時候啊我再去反省的地方另外啊\n102609\t127362\t國民黨的立法委員林德福委員他當初他的講法是說這可能涉及到各執法的問題法官檢察官都不能這樣管治到個人立法權都不能擴張無限大就算是個人有犯法也是由司法檢調系統處理輪不到你立委這林德福委員這在大陸在1996年的時候他還在書店跟我說你真的要這樣寵\n131833\t135996\t二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 «立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n161189\t188407\t大家一直在講說大法官大法官大法官會議啊有誰要講大法官有誰要講大法官大法官是很大的啊三十八年第一號釋憲解釋就已經出來了那為什麼他大大家一直在講說大法官同意解釋憲法解釋憲法的法律跟命令到底有沒有抵觸這個都專屬他的權限我們還從過去整個威權時代啊有的多因為那時候都那時候都\n189207\t215284\t威權、政府、總統、一黨獨大說要怎樣就要怎樣。所以大家甚至把大法官就說,你叫做不只是憲法的守護神,你還叫人權的守護者。到現在大家也這樣說。那為什麼他大?他就大到你的法律,就算你法院三審判決已經確定了有人申請大法官釋憲,所以你說這個適用法律有所違背的話,甚至那個確定判決都可以來申請再審跟非常上訴。好啦。\n217492\t217612\t二）委員傅崐萁\n233743\t260267\t大光輝解釋558號裡面他去講到說立法院調查權的行使的方式並不以要求有權機關就立法行使立法權行使權所涉及的事項提供參考資料或向有關機關調位文件原本的文件調位權違憲也就是說立法院當然要有調閱權立法院本來就可以有調查權這整個權限才會完整嘛\n261168\t269938\t這個到現在來看的話雖然國民黨有更好像看起來是進步的法案跟16年到12年民進黨法案一樣我還是表達贊同國會要有這個調查權但問題是說這個界限到什麼地方啊立法院不是說你要安坐就可以安坐捏你去看看喔\n283222\t300217\t四字五八五解釋他到最後跟你講說並得對違反協助調查義務者於科處罰款的範圍內施以合理的強制手段也就是說最高手段說叫做你只能罰款而已啦到這裡而已16年到最後為什麼民進黨多數沒辦法通過\n306348\t325939\t蔡英文揭示的是人民的國會、改革的國會、開放的國會啊。我們也都知道啊。但是就是社會沒有共識啊。當初是這樣來的啊。不然要過一個多數我們就過啊。大家還是要反省嘛。所以我的意思就是說我們去看看我們後來事後去討論大法官會議解釋就很明文的跟我們這樣講。\n327759\t347466\t你最高手段就是科處華環違憲甚至於整個大法公會議解釋裡面的危言大義是在講說你必須要去符合民主原則各案的調查事項的範圍你不能去違反權力分立跟制衡的原則也不得侵害其他憲法機關的權力核心範圍\n348826\t373281\t或對其他憲法機關權利的行使造成實質妨礙如就各項調查方法所規定的程序有涉及限制人民權利者要求必須要符合憲法的比例原則法律明確性跟正當法律程序的要求今天這一些事項哪有說像國民黨委員講的這都跟憲法無關的這特條嘛跟憲法有關的跟憲法太無關的市長不是這樣子嗎\n377362\t394221\t其實如委員所說的啦,那到585號解釋的第二段就講到這個問題。真的?要有這個憲法上的明確性、比例言者、政黨法律等等這些的要求。大法官司法院不是不能挑戰,你也人他不能挑戰,只是那個職務的時候,\n396083\t425007\t當初我也一直在搜尋我為什麼當初要叫做大法官我到現在也搜不出為什麼他命要做大法官但是他確實權限就很大嘛大到我本期剛所提到的那一些嘛所以張偉南本身也是學法啦這個界線齁其實大家都要守住啦他其實在講的就是說這個社會有沒有共識民進黨到現在版本齁我跟著我報告我現在的版本齁我再蓋 再蓋 再一直蓋我秀我的版本給你看啦\n425885\t430787\t我當年國會改革的版本我也有啊我跟顧立雄就是主題的啊我也有反省啊就是我們要搞對的那個手段最高能到什麼地方我們認為沒有共識就推下來稍微不是我們賣過是大家去想到說這個界限範圍到哪裡你這個法律規範要去設成到哪裡像國民黨現在的版本是不只是政府機關喔\n456161\t475106\t你看司法人一般老百姓當然趙偉有講說那個不是你的版本啦齁但國民黨版本你也很清楚嘛真的我們立法院我們設成有辦法這樣規範國會大道把公私行號台灣中小企業百分之九十起全部都去中小企業捏我全部都給你調來搞不好嘿嘿不給我據實陳述決議完罰完\n483086\t485987\t一送檢調那開什麼玩笑嘛檢察官膽敢如此立法院一定跳出來說你這都爛權那竟然我們自己要立這樣的一個法律我想起來我就怕你知道嗎要善施啊稍微我們兩個都噁心了我們不可以 要亂了這個部分有太多的政治口水\n506704\t517570\t因為大法官當然有時候他也會介入啦他也會很多政治性的啦就像當年我們在討論同婚本來大法官會議針對整個婚姻制度做出幾套解釋他到最後也自己把他推翻掉啊他說不行\n519241\t539923\t議員楊瓊瓔\n541391\t541591\t議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具\n570839\t571960\t五）委員\n591041\t596649\t那個底線齁國家這個法制齁連這部憲法是從中國那邊帶過來38年第一次釋憲到現在現在幾乎七百幾了齁\n601107\t606311\t您好久沒有念書了,也不曉得幾號了。我的意思就是說,這樣幾號一直下來、一直下來、一直下來,就是為什麼?就是不管是誰當家、誰威權、誰集權,至少有這個憲法,就是做人民權利的一個保障嘛。大法官會,你們大家都不要跟主席說什麼人最大,我們來聯手,我們來做這個法律,來懲罰人民,很爽。\n625134\t628236\t不能為了跟民進黨這個執政黨去對抗 然後把我們該守的憲法的一個底線 把它給預約了還是要有社會共識 不要管哪個鬼 我也給你尊重啊你保證到時你就被人趕走 我跟你講 但是呢對於本院的一些心格事項啊 我也要來請教我們秘書長就是說兩位我們那個次長跟廳長請回喔\n650894\t663445\t議長我簡單的問啦就是我們二月份政府機關的那個資安聯訪的一個情資裡面啊你看被攻擊的部分你看到它的四萬幾件資訊收集的部分29%入侵嘗試類的差不多21%入侵攻擊類15%像這些來講喔台灣資安大聯盟也敗壞了立法院的三個黨團啦\n671112\t672032\t議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉\n699385\t724695\t因為我知道你們版本有治安長是立法院現在是治安是由副名長兼任由副名長兼任治安因為有涉及維安各方面都是副名長他的權利但是你們版本我來看一下到底治安的這個他的職長到底是什麼那我們會再演繹看看\n725609\t745604\t我們現在很怕一些東西外流害客就是說我們要怎麼把我們的資通安全強化我們立法院這樣的一個治安的一個韌性這個有效去強化這整個資通安全的一個維護我相信這個有待這個周秘書長全面性的做一個規劃然後把這些執行資通安全的一個業務把它做一個更完善或國會的議事運作\n754713\t754913\t議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具\n","txt":"稍後在羅志強委員訓導完畢之後,我們休息五分鐘。謝謝主席,有請我們立法院周萬來秘書長。請周秘書長。我們司法院,書記聽聽長好不好。\n議員楊瓊瓊\n回憶一個影片來看看一個法新的法要推出以後各黨的反應會是怎麼樣然後他的反應到底值不值得大家來做討論那我先讓大家看一段這個16年的時候民進黨提出版本甚至本席也提出版本當初國民黨政策會執行長賴世保委員這我尊敬的委員他的想法\n除非先修憲把監察院整個監察權拿掉因為你部分的調查官員調查人民也好那這些來講的話都基本上都是監察院在行使的一定感覺說立法院是在擴權這個賴司法委員講得非常平和啦這個也當初啊民進黨提出的版本跟本席提出版本的時候啊我再去反省的地方另外啊\n國民黨的立法委員林德福委員他當初他的講法是說這可能涉及到各執法的問題法官檢察官都不能這樣管治到個人立法權都不能擴張無限大就算是個人有犯法也是由司法檢調系統處理輪不到你立委這林德福委員這在大陸在1996年的時候他還在書店跟我說你真的要這樣寵\n二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 «立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n大家一直在講說大法官大法官大法官會議啊有誰要講大法官有誰要講大法官大法官是很大的啊三十八年第一號釋憲解釋就已經出來了那為什麼他大大家一直在講說大法官同意解釋憲法解釋憲法的法律跟命令到底有沒有抵觸這個都專屬他的權限我們還從過去整個威權時代啊有的多因為那時候都那時候都\n威權、政府、總統、一黨獨大說要怎樣就要怎樣。所以大家甚至把大法官就說,你叫做不只是憲法的守護神,你還叫人權的守護者。到現在大家也這樣說。那為什麼他大?他就大到你的法律,就算你法院三審判決已經確定了有人申請大法官釋憲,所以你說這個適用法律有所違背的話,甚至那個確定判決都可以來申請再審跟非常上訴。好啦。\n二）委員傅崐萁\n大光輝解釋558號裡面他去講到說立法院調查權的行使的方式並不以要求有權機關就立法行使立法權行使權所涉及的事項提供參考資料或向有關機關調位文件原本的文件調位權違憲也就是說立法院當然要有調閱權立法院本來就可以有調查權這整個權限才會完整嘛\n這個到現在來看的話雖然國民黨有更好像看起來是進步的法案跟16年到12年民進黨法案一樣我還是表達贊同國會要有這個調查權但問題是說這個界限到什麼地方啊立法院不是說你要安坐就可以安坐捏你去看看喔\n四字五八五解釋他到最後跟你講說並得對違反協助調查義務者於科處罰款的範圍內施以合理的強制手段也就是說最高手段說叫做你只能罰款而已啦到這裡而已16年到最後為什麼民進黨多數沒辦法通過\n蔡英文揭示的是人民的國會、改革的國會、開放的國會啊。我們也都知道啊。但是就是社會沒有共識啊。當初是這樣來的啊。不然要過一個多數我們就過啊。大家還是要反省嘛。所以我的意思就是說我們去看看我們後來事後去討論大法官會議解釋就很明文的跟我們這樣講。\n你最高手段就是科處華環違憲甚至於整個大法公會議解釋裡面的危言大義是在講說你必須要去符合民主原則各案的調查事項的範圍你不能去違反權力分立跟制衡的原則也不得侵害其他憲法機關的權力核心範圍\n或對其他憲法機關權利的行使造成實質妨礙如就各項調查方法所規定的程序有涉及限制人民權利者要求必須要符合憲法的比例原則法律明確性跟正當法律程序的要求今天這一些事項哪有說像國民黨委員講的這都跟憲法無關的這特條嘛跟憲法有關的跟憲法太無關的市長不是這樣子嗎\n其實如委員所說的啦,那到585號解釋的第二段就講到這個問題。真的?要有這個憲法上的明確性、比例言者、政黨法律等等這些的要求。大法官司法院不是不能挑戰,你也人他不能挑戰,只是那個職務的時候,\n當初我也一直在搜尋我為什麼當初要叫做大法官我到現在也搜不出為什麼他命要做大法官但是他確實權限就很大嘛大到我本期剛所提到的那一些嘛所以張偉南本身也是學法啦這個界線齁其實大家都要守住啦他其實在講的就是說這個社會有沒有共識民進黨到現在版本齁我跟著我報告我現在的版本齁我再蓋 再蓋 再一直蓋我秀我的版本給你看啦\n我當年國會改革的版本我也有啊我跟顧立雄就是主題的啊我也有反省啊就是我們要搞對的那個手段最高能到什麼地方我們認為沒有共識就推下來稍微不是我們賣過是大家去想到說這個界限範圍到哪裡你這個法律規範要去設成到哪裡像國民黨現在的版本是不只是政府機關喔\n你看司法人一般老百姓當然趙偉有講說那個不是你的版本啦齁但國民黨版本你也很清楚嘛真的我們立法院我們設成有辦法這樣規範國會大道把公私行號台灣中小企業百分之九十起全部都去中小企業捏我全部都給你調來搞不好嘿嘿不給我據實陳述決議完罰完\n一送檢調那開什麼玩笑嘛檢察官膽敢如此立法院一定跳出來說你這都爛權那竟然我們自己要立這樣的一個法律我想起來我就怕你知道嗎要善施啊稍微我們兩個都噁心了我們不可以 要亂了這個部分有太多的政治口水\n因為大法官當然有時候他也會介入啦他也會很多政治性的啦就像當年我們在討論同婚本來大法官會議針對整個婚姻制度做出幾套解釋他到最後也自己把他推翻掉啊他說不行\n議員楊瓊瓔\n議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具\n五）委員\n那個底線齁國家這個法制齁連這部憲法是從中國那邊帶過來38年第一次釋憲到現在現在幾乎七百幾了齁\n您好久沒有念書了,也不曉得幾號了。我的意思就是說,這樣幾號一直下來、一直下來、一直下來,就是為什麼?就是不管是誰當家、誰威權、誰集權,至少有這個憲法,就是做人民權利的一個保障嘛。大法官會,你們大家都不要跟主席說什麼人最大,我們來聯手,我們來做這個法律,來懲罰人民,很爽。\n不能為了跟民進黨這個執政黨去對抗 然後把我們該守的憲法的一個底線 把它給預約了還是要有社會共識 不要管哪個鬼 我也給你尊重啊你保證到時你就被人趕走 我跟你講 但是呢對於本院的一些心格事項啊 我也要來請教我們秘書長就是說兩位我們那個次長跟廳長請回喔\n議長我簡單的問啦就是我們二月份政府機關的那個資安聯訪的一個情資裡面啊你看被攻擊的部分你看到它的四萬幾件資訊收集的部分29%入侵嘗試類的差不多21%入侵攻擊類15%像這些來講喔台灣資安大聯盟也敗壞了立法院的三個黨團啦\n議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉\n因為我知道你們版本有治安長是立法院現在是治安是由副名長兼任由副名長兼任治安因為有涉及維安各方面都是副名長他的權利但是你們版本我來看一下到底治安的這個他的職長到底是什麼那我們會再演繹看看\n我們現在很怕一些東西外流害客就是說我們要怎麼把我們的資通安全強化我們立法院這樣的一個治安的一個韌性這個有效去強化這整個資通安全的一個維護我相信這個有待這個周秘書長全面性的做一個規劃然後把這些執行資通安全的一個業務把它做一個更完善或國會的議事運作\n議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.210 --> 00:04.592\n稍後在羅志強委員訓導完畢之後,我們休息五分鐘。謝謝主席,有請我們立法院周萬來秘書長。請周秘書長。我們司法院,書記聽聽長好不好。\n\n00:49.949 --> 01:13.576\n回憶一個影片來看看一個法新的法要推出以後各黨的反應會是怎麼樣然後他的反應到底值不值得大家來做討論那我先讓大家看一段這個16年的時候民進黨提出版本甚至本席也提出版本當初國民黨政策會執行長賴世保委員這我尊敬的委員他的想法\n\n01:14.907 --> 01:39.649\n除非先修憲把監察院整個監察權拿掉因為你部分的調查官員調查人民也好那這些來講的話都基本上都是監察院在行使的一定感覺說立法院是在擴權這個賴司法委員講得非常平和啦這個也當初啊民進黨提出的版本跟本席提出版本的時候啊我再去反省的地方另外啊\n\n01:42.609 --> 02:07.362\n國民黨的立法委員林德福委員他當初他的講法是說這可能涉及到各執法的問題法官檢察官都不能這樣管治到個人立法權都不能擴張無限大就算是個人有犯法也是由司法檢調系統處理輪不到你立委這林德福委員這在大陸在1996年的時候他還在書店跟我說你真的要這樣寵\n\n02:11.833 --> 02:15.996\n二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具«立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n02:41.189 --> 03:08.407\n大家一直在講說大法官大法官大法官會議啊有誰要講大法官有誰要講大法官大法官是很大的啊三十八年第一號釋憲解釋就已經出來了那為什麼他大大家一直在講說大法官同意解釋憲法解釋憲法的法律跟命令到底有沒有抵觸這個都專屬他的權限我們還從過去整個威權時代啊有的多因為那時候都那時候都\n\n03:09.207 --> 03:35.284\n威權、政府、總統、一黨獨大說要怎樣就要怎樣。所以大家甚至把大法官就說,你叫做不只是憲法的守護神,你還叫人權的守護者。到現在大家也這樣說。那為什麼他大?他就大到你的法律,就算你法院三審判決已經確定了有人申請大法官釋憲,所以你說這個適用法律有所違背的話,甚至那個確定判決都可以來申請再審跟非常上訴。好啦。\n\n03:37.492 --> 03:37.612\n二）委員傅崐萁\n\n03:53.743 --> 04:20.267\n大光輝解釋558號裡面他去講到說立法院調查權的行使的方式並不以要求有權機關就立法行使立法權行使權所涉及的事項提供參考資料或向有關機關調位文件原本的文件調位權違憲也就是說立法院當然要有調閱權立法院本來就可以有調查權這整個權限才會完整嘛\n\n04:21.168 --> 04:29.938\n這個到現在來看的話雖然國民黨有更好像看起來是進步的法案跟16年到12年民進黨法案一樣我還是表達贊同國會要有這個調查權但問題是說這個界限到什麼地方啊立法院不是說你要安坐就可以安坐捏你去看看喔\n\n04:43.222 --> 05:00.217\n四字五八五解釋他到最後跟你講說並得對違反協助調查義務者於科處罰款的範圍內施以合理的強制手段也就是說最高手段說叫做你只能罰款而已啦到這裡而已16年到最後為什麼民進黨多數沒辦法通過\n\n05:06.348 --> 05:25.939\n蔡英文揭示的是人民的國會、改革的國會、開放的國會啊。我們也都知道啊。但是就是社會沒有共識啊。當初是這樣來的啊。不然要過一個多數我們就過啊。大家還是要反省嘛。所以我的意思就是說我們去看看我們後來事後去討論大法官會議解釋就很明文的跟我們這樣講。\n\n05:27.759 --> 05:47.466\n你最高手段就是科處華環違憲甚至於整個大法公會議解釋裡面的危言大義是在講說你必須要去符合民主原則各案的調查事項的範圍你不能去違反權力分立跟制衡的原則也不得侵害其他憲法機關的權力核心範圍\n\n05:48.826 --> 06:13.281\n或對其他憲法機關權利的行使造成實質妨礙如就各項調查方法所規定的程序有涉及限制人民權利者要求必須要符合憲法的比例原則法律明確性跟正當法律程序的要求今天這一些事項哪有說像國民黨委員講的這都跟憲法無關的這特條嘛跟憲法有關的跟憲法太無關的市長不是這樣子嗎\n\n06:17.362 --> 06:34.221\n其實如委員所說的啦,那到585號解釋的第二段就講到這個問題。真的?要有這個憲法上的明確性、比例言者、政黨法律等等這些的要求。大法官司法院不是不能挑戰,你也人他不能挑戰,只是那個職務的時候,\n\n06:36.083 --> 07:05.007\n當初我也一直在搜尋我為什麼當初要叫做大法官我到現在也搜不出為什麼他命要做大法官但是他確實權限就很大嘛大到我本期剛所提到的那一些嘛所以張偉南本身也是學法啦這個界線齁其實大家都要守住啦他其實在講的就是說這個社會有沒有共識民進黨到現在版本齁我跟著我報告我現在的版本齁我再蓋再蓋再一直蓋我秀我的版本給你看啦\n\n07:05.885 --> 07:10.787\n我當年國會改革的版本我也有啊我跟顧立雄就是主題的啊我也有反省啊就是我們要搞對的那個手段最高能到什麼地方我們認為沒有共識就推下來稍微不是我們賣過是大家去想到說這個界限範圍到哪裡你這個法律規範要去設成到哪裡像國民黨現在的版本是不只是政府機關喔\n\n07:36.161 --> 07:55.106\n你看司法人一般老百姓當然趙偉有講說那個不是你的版本啦齁但國民黨版本你也很清楚嘛真的我們立法院我們設成有辦法這樣規範國會大道把公私行號台灣中小企業百分之九十起全部都去中小企業捏我全部都給你調來搞不好嘿嘿不給我據實陳述決議完罰完\n\n08:03.086 --> 08:05.987\n一送檢調那開什麼玩笑嘛檢察官膽敢如此立法院一定跳出來說你這都爛權那竟然我們自己要立這樣的一個法律我想起來我就怕你知道嗎要善施啊稍微我們兩個都噁心了我們不可以要亂了這個部分有太多的政治口水\n\n08:26.704 --> 08:37.570\n因為大法官當然有時候他也會介入啦他也會很多政治性的啦就像當年我們在討論同婚本來大法官會議針對整個婚姻制度做出幾套解釋他到最後也自己把他推翻掉啊他說不行\n\n09:01.391 --> 09:01.591\n議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具\n\n09:30.839 --> 09:31.960\n五）委員\n\n09:51.041 --> 09:56.649\n那個底線齁國家這個法制齁連這部憲法是從中國那邊帶過來38年第一次釋憲到現在現在幾乎七百幾了齁\n\n10:01.107 --> 10:06.311\n您好久沒有念書了,也不曉得幾號了。我的意思就是說,這樣幾號一直下來、一直下來、一直下來,就是為什麼?就是不管是誰當家、誰威權、誰集權,至少有這個憲法,就是做人民權利的一個保障嘛。大法官會,你們大家都不要跟主席說什麼人最大,我們來聯手,我們來做這個法律,來懲罰人民,很爽。\n\n10:25.134 --> 10:28.236\n不能為了跟民進黨這個執政黨去對抗然後把我們該守的憲法的一個底線把它給預約了還是要有社會共識不要管哪個鬼我也給你尊重啊你保證到時你就被人趕走我跟你講但是呢對於本院的一些心格事項啊我也要來請教我們秘書長就是說兩位我們那個次長跟廳長請回喔\n\n10:50.894 --> 11:03.445\n議長我簡單的問啦就是我們二月份政府機關的那個資安聯訪的一個情資裡面啊你看被攻擊的部分你看到它的四萬幾件資訊收集的部分29%入侵嘗試類的差不多21%入侵攻擊類15%像這些來講喔台灣資安大聯盟也敗壞了立法院的三個黨團啦\n\n11:11.112 --> 11:12.032\n議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉\n\n11:39.385 --> 12:04.695\n因為我知道你們版本有治安長是立法院現在是治安是由副名長兼任由副名長兼任治安因為有涉及維安各方面都是副名長他的權利但是你們版本我來看一下到底治安的這個他的職長到底是什麼那我們會再演繹看看\n\n12:05.609 --> 12:25.604\n我們現在很怕一些東西外流害客就是說我們要怎麼把我們的資通安全強化我們立法院這樣的一個治安的一個韌性這個有效去強化這整個資通安全的一個維護我相信這個有待這個周秘書長全面性的做一個規劃然後把這些執行資通安全的一個業務把它做一個更完善或國會的議事運作\n\n12:34.713 --> 12:34.913\n議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.21,"end":4.592,"text":"稍後在羅志強委員訓導完畢之後,我們休息五分鐘。謝謝主席,有請我們立法院周萬來秘書長。請周秘書長。我們司法院,書記聽聽長好不好。"},{"start":31.8,"end":49.684,"text":"議員楊瓊瓊"},{"start":49.949,"end":73.576,"text":"回憶一個影片來看看一個法新的法要推出以後各黨的反應會是怎麼樣然後他的反應到底值不值得大家來做討論那我先讓大家看一段這個16年的時候民進黨提出版本甚至本席也提出版本當初國民黨政策會執行長賴世保委員這我尊敬的委員他的想法"},{"start":74.907,"end":99.649,"text":"除非先修憲把監察院整個監察權拿掉因為你部分的調查官員調查人民也好那這些來講的話都基本上都是監察院在行使的一定感覺說立法院是在擴權這個賴司法委員講得非常平和啦這個也當初啊民進黨提出的版本跟本席提出版本的時候啊我再去反省的地方另外啊"},{"start":102.609,"end":127.362,"text":"國民黨的立法委員林德福委員他當初他的講法是說這可能涉及到各執法的問題法官檢察官都不能這樣管治到個人立法權都不能擴張無限大就算是個人有犯法也是由司法檢調系統處理輪不到你立委這林德福委員這在大陸在1996年的時候他還在書店跟我說你真的要這樣寵"},{"start":131.833,"end":135.996,"text":"二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 «立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":161.189,"end":188.407,"text":"大家一直在講說大法官大法官大法官會議啊有誰要講大法官有誰要講大法官大法官是很大的啊三十八年第一號釋憲解釋就已經出來了那為什麼他大大家一直在講說大法官同意解釋憲法解釋憲法的法律跟命令到底有沒有抵觸這個都專屬他的權限我們還從過去整個威權時代啊有的多因為那時候都那時候都"},{"start":189.207,"end":215.284,"text":"威權、政府、總統、一黨獨大說要怎樣就要怎樣。所以大家甚至把大法官就說,你叫做不只是憲法的守護神,你還叫人權的守護者。到現在大家也這樣說。那為什麼他大?他就大到你的法律,就算你法院三審判決已經確定了有人申請大法官釋憲,所以你說這個適用法律有所違背的話,甚至那個確定判決都可以來申請再審跟非常上訴。好啦。"},{"start":217.492,"end":217.612,"text":"二）委員傅崐萁"},{"start":233.743,"end":260.267,"text":"大光輝解釋558號裡面他去講到說立法院調查權的行使的方式並不以要求有權機關就立法行使立法權行使權所涉及的事項提供參考資料或向有關機關調位文件原本的文件調位權違憲也就是說立法院當然要有調閱權立法院本來就可以有調查權這整個權限才會完整嘛"},{"start":261.168,"end":269.938,"text":"這個到現在來看的話雖然國民黨有更好像看起來是進步的法案跟16年到12年民進黨法案一樣我還是表達贊同國會要有這個調查權但問題是說這個界限到什麼地方啊立法院不是說你要安坐就可以安坐捏你去看看喔"},{"start":283.222,"end":300.217,"text":"四字五八五解釋他到最後跟你講說並得對違反協助調查義務者於科處罰款的範圍內施以合理的強制手段也就是說最高手段說叫做你只能罰款而已啦到這裡而已16年到最後為什麼民進黨多數沒辦法通過"},{"start":306.348,"end":325.939,"text":"蔡英文揭示的是人民的國會、改革的國會、開放的國會啊。我們也都知道啊。但是就是社會沒有共識啊。當初是這樣來的啊。不然要過一個多數我們就過啊。大家還是要反省嘛。所以我的意思就是說我們去看看我們後來事後去討論大法官會議解釋就很明文的跟我們這樣講。"},{"start":327.759,"end":347.466,"text":"你最高手段就是科處華環違憲甚至於整個大法公會議解釋裡面的危言大義是在講說你必須要去符合民主原則各案的調查事項的範圍你不能去違反權力分立跟制衡的原則也不得侵害其他憲法機關的權力核心範圍"},{"start":348.826,"end":373.281,"text":"或對其他憲法機關權利的行使造成實質妨礙如就各項調查方法所規定的程序有涉及限制人民權利者要求必須要符合憲法的比例原則法律明確性跟正當法律程序的要求今天這一些事項哪有說像國民黨委員講的這都跟憲法無關的這特條嘛跟憲法有關的跟憲法太無關的市長不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":377.362,"end":394.221,"text":"其實如委員所說的啦,那到585號解釋的第二段就講到這個問題。真的?要有這個憲法上的明確性、比例言者、政黨法律等等這些的要求。大法官司法院不是不能挑戰,你也人他不能挑戰,只是那個職務的時候,"},{"start":396.083,"end":425.007,"text":"當初我也一直在搜尋我為什麼當初要叫做大法官我到現在也搜不出為什麼他命要做大法官但是他確實權限就很大嘛大到我本期剛所提到的那一些嘛所以張偉南本身也是學法啦這個界線齁其實大家都要守住啦他其實在講的就是說這個社會有沒有共識民進黨到現在版本齁我跟著我報告我現在的版本齁我再蓋 再蓋 再一直蓋我秀我的版本給你看啦"},{"start":425.885,"end":430.787,"text":"我當年國會改革的版本我也有啊我跟顧立雄就是主題的啊我也有反省啊就是我們要搞對的那個手段最高能到什麼地方我們認為沒有共識就推下來稍微不是我們賣過是大家去想到說這個界限範圍到哪裡你這個法律規範要去設成到哪裡像國民黨現在的版本是不只是政府機關喔"},{"start":456.161,"end":475.106,"text":"你看司法人一般老百姓當然趙偉有講說那個不是你的版本啦齁但國民黨版本你也很清楚嘛真的我們立法院我們設成有辦法這樣規範國會大道把公私行號台灣中小企業百分之九十起全部都去中小企業捏我全部都給你調來搞不好嘿嘿不給我據實陳述決議完罰完"},{"start":483.086,"end":485.987,"text":"一送檢調那開什麼玩笑嘛檢察官膽敢如此立法院一定跳出來說你這都爛權那竟然我們自己要立這樣的一個法律我想起來我就怕你知道嗎要善施啊稍微我們兩個都噁心了我們不可以 要亂了這個部分有太多的政治口水"},{"start":506.704,"end":517.57,"text":"因為大法官當然有時候他也會介入啦他也會很多政治性的啦就像當年我們在討論同婚本來大法官會議針對整個婚姻制度做出幾套解釋他到最後也自己把他推翻掉啊他說不行"},{"start":519.241,"end":539.923,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔"},{"start":541.391,"end":541.591,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具"},{"start":570.839,"end":571.96,"text":"五）委員"},{"start":591.041,"end":596.649,"text":"那個底線齁國家這個法制齁連這部憲法是從中國那邊帶過來38年第一次釋憲到現在現在幾乎七百幾了齁"},{"start":601.107,"end":606.311,"text":"您好久沒有念書了,也不曉得幾號了。我的意思就是說,這樣幾號一直下來、一直下來、一直下來,就是為什麼?就是不管是誰當家、誰威權、誰集權,至少有這個憲法,就是做人民權利的一個保障嘛。大法官會,你們大家都不要跟主席說什麼人最大,我們來聯手,我們來做這個法律,來懲罰人民,很爽。"},{"start":625.134,"end":628.236,"text":"不能為了跟民進黨這個執政黨去對抗 然後把我們該守的憲法的一個底線 把它給預約了還是要有社會共識 不要管哪個鬼 我也給你尊重啊你保證到時你就被人趕走 我跟你講 但是呢對於本院的一些心格事項啊 我也要來請教我們秘書長就是說兩位我們那個次長跟廳長請回喔"},{"start":650.894,"end":663.445,"text":"議長我簡單的問啦就是我們二月份政府機關的那個資安聯訪的一個情資裡面啊你看被攻擊的部分你看到它的四萬幾件資訊收集的部分29%入侵嘗試類的差不多21%入侵攻擊類15%像這些來講喔台灣資安大聯盟也敗壞了立法院的三個黨團啦"},{"start":671.112,"end":672.032,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉"},{"start":699.385,"end":724.695,"text":"因為我知道你們版本有治安長是立法院現在是治安是由副名長兼任由副名長兼任治安因為有涉及維安各方面都是副名長他的權利但是你們版本我來看一下到底治安的這個他的職長到底是什麼那我們會再演繹看看"},{"start":725.609,"end":745.604,"text":"我們現在很怕一些東西外流害客就是說我們要怎麼把我們的資通安全強化我們立法院這樣的一個治安的一個韌性這個有效去強化這整個資通安全的一個維護我相信這個有待這個周秘書長全面性的做一個規劃然後把這些執行資通安全的一個業務把它做一個更完善或國會的議事運作"},{"start":754.713,"end":754.913,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具"}]}}}}