{"id":150738,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150738","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0682a5895bf8aad5f91bc002822e084d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6581072cc072802035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:44:26 - 11:02:38","影片長度":"00:18:12","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":1092,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:02:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T10:44:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":460,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時44分）謝謝主席，麻煩請邱部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：召委好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。上週也討論過，因為剛好發生二膽島的無人機事件，所以我們想再探討一下，國軍目前有建置兩個干擾系統案，一個是由空軍統籌建案，目前是中科院在執行，涵蓋三軍各單位的遙控無人機干擾系統；另外一個就是我們之前研發失敗被監察院糾正，現在是由陸軍另行尋商在統籌建案，涵蓋陸、海軍的無人機反制系統。因為它都是防禦的，這兩套的衍生，主要大概都是針對金門那時候受到大陸無人機侵擾的需求，雖然它的名稱有差異，可是實際上大概都是防禦民用商規型的無人機。我們現在可能要看一下，就這兩套系統，雖然名稱不一樣，可是第一，它們的預算差非常多，由中科院做的空軍建案，24套干擾系統還有310支干擾槍，干擾槍算1億好了，都還高達四十幾億預算，要做24套干擾系統。而無人機反制系統的部分，這個大概九億八，做了26套，其最大的差異何在？"],["邱部長國正：這個請陸軍講一下。"],["馬委員文君：簡單回應，好不好？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，我是陸軍司令部參謀長。我簡單就空軍跟陸軍這兩個建置，第一個，空軍的建置主要是運用在機場，機場的幅員上面是相當大的。另外一個……"],["馬委員文君：你全部用在機場，當時在審預算的時候不是這麼說的。"],["陳參謀長建義：空軍的部分。"],["馬委員文君：還有陸軍和海軍啊！三軍都建置啊？"],["陳參謀長建義：對，它是空軍統建。我簡單地講，空軍是依據其實際需求，譬如它的偵蒐雷達，依機場幅員，委員看到它的搜索雷達是5公里，它可能就配置了，並不是一套只會有一個搜索雷達，它會……"],["馬委員文君：所以它只差一個偵蒐雷達，對不對……"],["陳參謀長建義：它會依它的實……"],["馬委員文君：跟無人機反制系統，它只差了搜索雷達，對不對？"],["陳參謀長建義：委員，剛才說明的，它還有干擾槍。另外它還有一個光電目獲系統，我們陸軍在外島沒有這個光電目獲系統，所以它整個配置上面跟陸軍的價格和所謂功能性是不太一樣。"],["馬委員文君：所以你的光電目獲系統價格很高，是嗎？因為你的功能差不多嘛！兩樣的建置目標、功能其實差不多，可是你多了這個部分，就是這兩個部分的差別而已，那它的價格差很多，是嗎？"],["曹參謀長進平：報告委員，我是空軍參謀長曹進平。我再做一點補充報告，除了委員所列出來的這幾個，雷達或光電目獲系統的性能範圍看起來有點不一樣之外，裝備的數量也不一樣。以機場來講，兩個進場端點每個雷達都有4套，比如是4個被動雷達……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，你把那個規格跟預算項目送給本席這邊，好不好？"],["曹參謀長進平：是的。"],["馬委員文君：因為你現在說明的，你們上一次拿一張，上個禮拜到現在還沒拿過來，對不對？"],["曹參謀長進平：報告委員，我們上次是用口頭說明，因為比較詳細的數據我們就沒有留書面資料。我們可以再去委員辦公室做仔細的說明。"],["馬委員文君：這個是很機敏的嗎？公開的預算，是很機敏的嗎？它的功能就是這樣。你就是多了這兩個東西，可是都是對於民用無人機你做干擾，像二膽的這個部分你會用什麼？干擾槍？是用干擾槍？那它都飛到上面大家才發現，你看得到嗎？干擾槍，那時候在審預算的時候我們說，你用干擾槍根本是不符現實的需求，因為你說看到兩公里外，兩公里外那麼小的無人機，等飛到你上空的時候，你的干擾槍在哪裡？我們希望大家在花這些預算的時候，一個四十幾億、一個十億，總共加起來高達五十幾億的預算，你做的功能都是一樣，除了機場你說稍微有些不一樣，包括雷達和光電目獲系統以外，我們看不出來它的差異到底在哪裡。所以這個部分我們希望再提供具體的資料給本席，好不好？好，謝謝。","接下來，我們今天討論的很多國防預算，除了國防自主以外，也有委員關切坑子口的訓場部分。坑子口訓場，在上一次質詢時我們就已經有提到了，這個預算其實非常不合理，因為你本來有高達12億的預算，可是你把重要的部分通通砍掉，十項你把它砍了五項，尤其是訓練的部分。這些專管公司當初在投標的時候就已經知道我們必須要做的項目就是這些，結果它得標了以後才說它的金額不足、所有的都漲價。全國不管是公共工程或者其他的建設，包括道路也好、堤防也好，所有的公共建設其實都會面臨這樣的問題，可是其他的並沒有這樣延宕，本來112年就要建置完成坑子口訓場，已經延到115年，結果現在12億還不夠，王召委上一次也提到不夠，可能還要再加價，你要加多少？10億嗎？因為你減了一半啊，尤其是重要的訓練能量全部都把它拿掉了，這部分請你說明。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，容我向您報告。第一個，有關專管公司它的整個評估，專管公司未必會是得標的廠商，像這個案子，它的專管公司跟得標的廠商就是不同的公司，所以並不是說它報多少就是多少。第二個，實際上也真的是因為原物料上漲的原因。剛剛委員提到我們把原規劃的十一項區分為一、二階段來實施，第一階段最主要也是針對新戰車進來以後，它的整個射擊能力上面的需求，這個如何取捨是由教準部還有兵監……"],["馬委員文君：參謀長，這個部分我要打斷，針對這個訓場，我們本來就知道我們要做什麼，當時我們的目的就是要做訓練，結果我們把所有的訓練項目通通拿掉了，還包括一些水電的相關部分。除了固定式靶臺，還有機槍射擊的陣地、訓場道路的整建、靶控臺的教室，還有電力、電信管道的線路地下化工程全部都拿掉，你拿來做什麼？拿來做避彈屋，拿來做機槍的被彈牆，而且還做了水土保持工程，這個水土保持工程本來是沒有的。結果你把應該要做訓練用的項目全部都拿掉以後，現在才說今年不夠了、我們的訓場能量不夠了，現在我們可能要追加預算。這是因為制度的關係還是人的關係？你們當初拿掉的原因是什麼？"],["陳參謀長建義：我跟委員報告，第一個，坑子口地理環境上的特殊需要，實際上，水保工程……"],["馬委員文君：那剛開始專管公司跟陸軍及設計單位所有層層把關的人都在做什麼？你那時候都沒有發現要做水土保持，結果……"],["陳參謀長建義：水保工程本來……"],["馬委員文君：水保工程你們剛開始都沒有納在裡面耶！在本來的訓練場裡面通通沒有做，那是後來才加進去的，你們把錢用在這裡，你剛開始都沒有發現這個有問題嗎？針對這個部分，我們希望你們做一個審慎的評估及合理的書面資料，說明後續的預算運用，不然你現在做了以後，連訓練都不能訓練，因為你即使做好了，像電力、電信這些都沒有做，你即使做好了，它還是不能用，因為根本沒有電，活動靶場的靶要怎麼用？包括預算的運用以及工項刪減的部分，其實是有很大的問題，針對這個部分，我們希望提出比較具體合理的書面資料說明好不好？"],["陳參謀長建義：是的。"],["馬委員文君：接下來，這一次我們提到的是國防自主，針對國防自主，非常重要的有國機國造、國艦國造，另外還有飛彈以及現在的無人機等等，其實有非常多的項目。我們現在想要討論有關國艦國造的部分，因為已經當選的準總統賴清德總統未來也傾向就潛艦的部分希望可以一次把它完成，不過對於比較專業或者國防部所有，尤其是海軍未來要用的，我相信大家非常清楚它必須要有作戰功能，而作戰功能到底要怎麼樣測試之後，大家才有好的作戰裝備，我想這是非常重要的。在這裡我想要再反推回去，既然要做，我們就要找出其中可能需要檢討的部分，我想要請教部長，這個案子還是絕對機密嗎？它已經解密了嗎？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，因為原型艦弄好以後，現在正在測試，目前它分為兩階段，一個是泊港，一個是在海面上測試。像剛剛委員所講的，未來希望一次建或分段建，即使這已經定調了，但我們測試一定要做的，不會不做就直接跳過去，一切以安全、能夠作戰為主。剛剛委員特別強調作戰功能，這也是首當其衝，很重要的。"],["馬委員文君：像現在的測試大家都看到，如果潛艦可以自己做出來，大家都非常的高興，可是因為它包裹在裡面，所以大家看不到它實質的狀況到底是怎麼樣。潛艦很重要的一個部分是它的重量控制，也就是說它有很多裝備都應該要到位，如果還沒有到位，不管你用什麼樣的方式，包括借的、租的或者要用什麼樣的方式，我不知道是用什麼去做現在給大家看到的所呈現的樣子。可是我們要再回到最源頭，今天它還是絕對機密的案子，它還沒有解密，我想要請教最初我們有台船的顧問約，另外還有海軍的顧問約，總共有這兩個對不對？其中一個是GL公司，因為都已經是公開，在媒體上面也都有看過了，而SI是海軍顧問約。我想請教台船顧問約是新華荷公司得到標案對不對？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好，我是海軍參謀長。有關新荷華的部分……"],["馬委員文君：新荷華還是新華荷？還是都一樣？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：新華荷是GL在臺灣的一個勞務，是它自己跟它的契約，跟台船沒有關係。"],["馬委員文君：跟台船沒有關係？我想要看一下新華荷以及這幾家公司介入台船顧問約的部分，這家公司負責人叫柴美娟，然後它有監察人叫陳清行，董事林黎真、董事陳希亮，另外還有其他相關幾家公司達華、弘華、達弘、原景、安卓雲、達宇等等，其實這幾家都有參與其中。在這幾家裡面，大家可以看到有很多重複的名字，負責人包括郭璽、黃瓊慧，還有陳清行、陳希亮、郭中、郭琛等等，另外還有林黎真。我想要讓大家看一看，林黎真在新華荷裡面占了94%，因為他負責接送所有相關的顧問，當時介入這樣絕對機密的案子，事實上他是必須要完全保密對不對？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，目前它是必須要有必要的保密，但是因為新荷華跟GL之間的契約，我們沒有涉入到他們之間的運作，他只是負責在臺灣一些運送的……"],["馬委員文君：針對絕對機密的案子，包括廠商還有跟他接觸的人其實都是非常重要的，我剛剛唸的這幾家公司，這裡面包括郭璽還有黃瓊慧，黃瓊慧就是郭璽的太太，還有陳希亮，他是郭璽的外甥，陳清行是郭璽的姐夫，林黎真是郭璽的太太的阿姨，他就是新華荷裡面占比94%的股東，全部都是家族。然後今天得標以後，它是我們設計約的顧問，結果我們的海軍顧問約也是新華荷所引進的。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，海軍顧問約並不是，新華荷只有跟GL，他們兩個的契約行為，我們不予以評論。"],["馬委員文君：我先簡單說明到此，因為時間的關係，我們會持續安排專案，今天來外交及國防委員會的委員，其實他們過去都沒有接觸過，即使他們道聽塗說，有些甚至在外面講了很多的話，他們對這個案子完全不懂，所以未來我們可以安排專案報告，甚至所有潛艦的內容，我們希望他們至少知道一點以後大家再來發表意見。可是我現在要講的，這個部分其實還沒有解密，而跟這個案子關係這麼密切的人，他不但直播，且在媒體、在很多政論節目發表很多公開訊息，他是直接接觸的，包括他的錄音都已經被披露出來，他的身分是可以這樣做的嗎？他有簽保密協定嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，當初郭先生是我們海軍的顧問。"],["馬委員文君：他有簽保密協定嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：有，我們當初在審核，我們有一個簽核程序。"],["馬委員文君：他有簽？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：至於他在外面這些其他評論的部分，我們……"],["馬委員文君：他可以講嗎？今天我們監督國家預算、監督整個國家政策的人被攻擊，或者用不當的這些說法，他們沒有實質的證據都可以這樣指東指西，可是今天介入這麼深的人，他的安全查核到底有沒有做？他過去在大陸做了非常多的生意，我們可以看到臺灣達華公司負責人是誰，郭璽都在裡面，他不但在新疆、成都還有長春賣軍警用品，跟對岸關係這麼密切的人，他來做我們絕對機密的案子，還可以公開說這麼多話。今天因為時間上的關係，我們沒辦法提出很多，可是如果我們的潛艦要能夠成功，有一些弊端一定要清查清楚，不然整筆預算是不是會耗費掉？或者他所買的武器裝備是不是我們真正需求的？這個我們都會懷疑。因為我們的潛艦召集人曾經說過，我們用合法非正式管道，我們中華民國的海軍人才輩出，建軍百年，我相信海內外都有非常多的人才，他們的社群關係各方面也非常地多，沒有理由這麼高難度的案子只有郭顧問一個人可以協助，而且還可以掌控這麼多。有關這個部分，我們希望有機會跟相關單位做一個探討，然後我們需要的資料也請提供，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：是，這個我們要……"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":240,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","王定宇","徐巧芯","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林憶君","王鴻薇"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家\n科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132201_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"150738","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150738","tool":"pyannote","id":"150738-pyannote"},"job_id":"lCvfAufzFJ4GWTdp","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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1073.91, \"end\": 1074.19, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1074.19, \"end\": 1074.771, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1074.771, \"end\": 1075.091, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1075.091, \"end\": 1075.111, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 1075.911, \"end\": 1075.951, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 1075.951, \"end\": 1075.971, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,631 --> 00:00:01,975\n謝謝主席麻煩請邱部長邱部長也請\n\n2\n00:00:11,082 --> 00:00:15,785\n阿蘇阿維好部長好部長上週其實也有討論過那本因為剛好發生二單島的這個無人機的事件所以我們想要再探討一下就是說在國軍目前有建制兩個干擾系統案一個是由空軍同仇建案的\n\n3\n00:00:31,474 --> 00:00:53,587\n目前是中科院在執行涵蓋三軍各單位的遙控無人機干擾系統另外一個就是我們之前研發失敗被監察院糾正現在是由陸軍另行巡商在統籌建案涵蓋陸海軍的無人機反制系統那我們現在想要看看因為它都是\n\n4\n00:00:55,785 --> 00:01:03,932\n防禦的因為主要大概都是針對這兩套的衍生大概都是針對金門那時候受到大陸無人機侵擾的一個需求雖然他的名稱有差異可是他實際上大概都是防禦民用商規型的無人機那我們現在可能就是要看一下就這兩套系統他雖然名稱不一樣可是他第一他的那個\n\n5\n00:01:23,067 --> 00:01:24,508\n無人機的反制系統的部分這個大概9億8\n\n6\n00:01:50,953 --> 00:02:16,949\n做了26套,它最大的差異在哪裡?請陸軍講簡單回應好不好?報委員,我是陸軍事務副常務長我簡單就空軍跟陸軍這兩個建制第一個,空軍它的建制主要是運用在機場那機場它的幅員上面是相當大的你有沒有用在機場?當時在省預算的時候不是這麼說的\n\n7\n00:02:17,790 --> 00:02:18,430\n所以它只差一個徵收雷達,對不對?\n\n8\n00:02:44,469 --> 00:03:08,675\n跟無人機反制系統它只差了搜索雷達對不對?委員剛才說明的除了它還有干擾槍另外它還有一個光電的目獲系統那那個是我們陸軍在外島沒有這個光電目獲系統所以它整個的配置上面是跟陸軍的價格和所謂的功能性是不太一樣所以你的那個光電的目獲系統價格很高是嗎?\n\n9\n00:03:12,199 --> 00:03:12,640\n包委員我是空間參謀長曹敬平我再做一點補充報告\n\n10\n00:03:28,962 --> 00:03:29,082\n主席\n\n11\n00:03:44,645 --> 00:03:58,917\n把那個規格跟那個預算的項目送給本席這邊好不好因為你現在說明的你們上一次拿來上一次拿一張上個禮拜到現在還沒拿過來對不對\n\n12\n00:03:59,878 --> 00:04:19,799\n包委我們上次是用口頭說明因為比較詳細的數據我們就沒有留書面資料我們可以再去委員辦公室做仔細的說明這個是很機敏的嗎公開的預算你是很機敏的嗎它的功能就是這樣你就是多了這兩個東西可是你都是對於民用的無人機你做干擾像二檔的這個部分你會用什麼干擾槍\n\n13\n00:04:21,735 --> 00:04:45,002\n二檔的這個你會用什麼?干擾槍?是用干擾槍?拿著,那它飛到上面大家才發現,你看得到嗎?你干擾槍那時候我們在審預算的時候我們說你用干擾槍根本是不符現實的需求,因為你說看到兩公里外,你兩公里那麼小的無人機,等你飛到你的上空的時候你的干擾槍在哪裡?\n\n14\n00:04:46,202 --> 00:05:08,849\n這些部分我們希望大家在花這些預算的時候你一個40幾億一個10億總共加起來高達50幾億的預算你做的功能都是一樣的除了機場你說稍微有一些不一樣的包括雷達跟光天幕後系統以外我們看不出來它的差異到底在哪裡所以這個部分我們希望再提供具體的資料給本席好不好\n\n15\n00:05:09,329 --> 00:05:37,072\n好謝謝接下來我們要看一下的就是我們上一次我們今天討論了有很多我們的國防預算除了國防自主以外也有委員在關切就坑子口的這個訓場的部分坑子口的訓場其實在上一次的質詢的時候其實我們大概就已經有提到了其實這個預算其實是非常的不合理\n\n16\n00:05:37,913 --> 00:05:44,323\n因為你本來高達12億的預算可是你把重要的一個部分通通把它砍掉10項你把它砍了5項\n\n17\n00:05:48,686 --> 00:06:11,250\n尤其是訓練的部分那這些專管公司他當初在投標的時候他就已經知道我們必須要做的項目就是這些結果你得標了以後才說你的那個金額不足所有的都漲價我們全國不管是公共工程或者其他的建設你不道路也好提防也好所有的公共建設其實都會面臨這樣的問題可是其他的並沒有這樣延宕\n\n18\n00:06:15,111 --> 00:06:16,993\n我們本來112年就要建制完成坑子口的這個訓場已經延到115年結果現在12億還不夠王釗緯上次也提說這個不夠可能還要再加價你要加多少?10億嗎?因為你減了一半啊尤其是重要的訓練的能量全部都把它拿掉了\n\n19\n00:06:36,688 --> 00:07:03,074\n報告委員容我向您報告第一個專管公司他的整個評估他專管公司他不會是未來未必會是這個得標的廠商那像這個案子他的專管公司跟得標的廠商就是不同的公司所以並不是說他報多少就是多少那第二個實際上也真的是因為原物料上漲的原因那第二個剛剛委員講我們把我們把原規劃的11項\n\n20\n00:07:04,594 --> 00:07:04,794\n財寶長,這個部分我要打斷你\n\n21\n00:07:21,601 --> 00:07:26,465\n這個部分因為我們這個訓場這個我們本來就知道我們要做什麼當時我們的目的就是要做訓練結果我們把所有的訓練項目通通拿掉了還包括一些水電的這些相關的部分它固定式靶台還有機槍射擊的陣地訓場道路的整建\n\n22\n00:07:44,398 --> 00:07:54,710\n把控台的這個教室還有電力電信管道的線路地下化工程全部都拿掉你拿來做什麼拿來做避彈屋拿來做機槍的備彈牆而且還做了水土保持工程這個水土保持工程原來本來沒有的\n\n23\n00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:23,268\n結果你把應該要做訓練用的項目全部都拿掉以後你現在才說今年不夠了我們的訓場能量不夠了現在我們可能要追加預算這樣子是幫什麼樣子這是因為制度的關係還是人的關係你們當初拿掉的原因是什麼\n\n24\n00:08:23,928 --> 00:08:43,376\n我跟委員報告,第一個堪茲口他的這個地理環境上的特殊上的需要那實際上水保工程剛開始專管公司跟我們所有的陸軍還有所有的設計單位所有層層把關的人都在做什麼你那時候都沒有發現要做水土保持結果水保工程你們剛開始都沒有納在裡面\n\n25\n00:08:48,518 --> 00:08:52,260\n這本來的訓練場裡面通通沒有做那是後來才加進去的你們把錢用在那裡你剛開始都沒有發現這個有問題嗎所以這個部分我們希望你們做一個審慎的評估跟合理的一個\n\n26\n00:09:03,385 --> 00:09:17,798\n一個書面的資料我想後續包括你的預算的運用不然你現在做了以後連訓練都不能訓練因為你即使做好了像我們電力電信的這些你都沒有做你即使做好了它還是不能用因為就沒有電啊你的那個活動靶場你的那個靶怎麼用\n\n27\n00:09:21,801 --> 00:09:33,276\n所以我們的預算的運用還有你在工項刪減的部分其實是有很大的問題這個部分我們希望提出一個比較具體合理的一個說明書面資料好不好是的\n\n28\n00:09:35,730 --> 00:09:43,075\n接下來我想因為這一次我們提到的是國防自主國防自主我們非常重要的有我們的國機國造有我們的國艦國造還有我們的飛彈還有現在的無人機等等其實有非常多的項目那我們現在想要討論一下就是我們的國艦國造的部分因為\n\n29\n00:09:58,186 --> 00:10:16,479\n準總統就是我們現任已經當選的賴清德總統他未來其實也傾向就遣件的部分是希望可以一次把它完成不過如果對於比較專業或者我們作戰包括我們國防部所有\n\n30\n00:10:17,796 --> 00:10:42,361\n尤其是海軍未來要用的我相信大家非常清楚他必須要有作戰功能那這作戰功能到底要怎麼樣去做測試以後大家才有一個好的一個作戰裝備我想這是非常重要的在這裡我想要再反推回去因為既然要做我們就要找出其中可能需要檢討的部分\n\n31\n00:10:43,629 --> 00:11:10,337\n我想請教部長,這個案子還是絕對機密嗎?它已經解密了嗎?沒有,現在因為它已經原型艦弄好以後現在正在測試,目前它分兩個階段,一個播港,一個在海面上測試。像剛剛委員所講到,未來希望一次艦或分段艦,假如說已經定調了,但我們這個測試一定要做的,不會不會不做就直接跳過去了,一切以安全能夠作戰為主。\n\n32\n00:11:11,297 --> 00:11:15,719\n因為像現在的測試大家都看到如果潛艦可以自己做出來大家都非常的高興可是因為它包裹在裡面所以大家看不到它到底實質的狀況是怎麼樣潛艦很重要的一個部分是它的一個重量控制重量控制也就是說它有很多的裝備\n\n33\n00:11:38,510 --> 00:11:38,570\n併請國防部長\n\n34\n00:12:04,401 --> 00:12:19,558\n我們在最初我們有一個臺船的顧問約我們還有一個海軍的顧問約這兩個對不對一個GL公司因為這個都已經是公開在媒體上面都有看過了那SIA是海軍顧問約我想請教臺船顧問約是新華和公司他得到的標案對不對\n\n35\n00:12:27,483 --> 00:12:33,947\n我是海軍參謀長。新河河是JL在台灣的一個勞務跟其他他自己跟他的契約跟台船沒有關係\n\n36\n00:12:44,755 --> 00:12:46,796\n跟臺船沒有關係,我想要看一下這個新華和還有這幾家公司它介入我們的臺船,就是介入我們的臺船的顧問約的部分這個公司負責人叫柴美娟,然後它有監察人叫陳清醒,董事林黎珍,董事陳希亮\n\n37\n00:13:04,887 --> 00:13:22,095\n他還有其他相關的幾家公司：打華、鴻華、打鴻、遠景、安卓雲、打魚等等其實這幾家都有參與其中那這幾家裡面大家可能可以看到很多重複的名字負責人有郭熙、黃瓊惠還有陳清醒、陳希亮\n\n38\n00:13:27,936 --> 00:13:40,924\n還有郭忠、郭琛等等還有林黎珍我想要讓大家看一看這個林黎珍在新華盒裡面他佔了94%因為他負責接送所有的相關的顧問當時這個介入這樣子的一個案子絕對機密的案子事實上他是必須要完全保密對不對\n\n39\n00:13:54,445 --> 00:13:54,965\n絕對機密的案子包括廠商還有包括\n\n40\n00:14:10,239 --> 00:14:17,485\n今天跟他接觸的人其實他都是非常重要的更何況這個人我剛剛念的這幾家公司他裡面包括郭喜還有一個黃瓊慧黃瓊慧就是郭喜的太太還有一個陳希亮他是郭喜的外甥陳清行是郭喜的姐夫林黎珍是郭喜的太太的阿姨他就是新華盒裡面佔比94%的這樣子的一個股東\n\n41\n00:14:38,382 --> 00:14:42,705\n全部都是家族然後今天得標以後他是我們的設計約的顧問結果在我們的海軍顧問約也是新華河他引進的\n\n42\n00:14:53,839 --> 00:14:57,901\n報言這可能海軍的顧問約並不是新華和只有跟GL他是GL在台灣的他們兩個契約行為我們我先簡單因為時間的關係我們會持續安排專案今天這一次來\n\n43\n00:15:10,647 --> 00:15:14,488\n外交國防委員會的委員其實他們過去都沒有接觸過即使他們到聽途說有些甚至在外面講了很多的話他們對這個案子完全不懂所以未來我們可以安排專案報告甚至所有顯見的內容我們希望他們至少知道一點以後大家再來發表意見可是我現在要講的\n\n44\n00:15:34,895 --> 00:15:59,787\n就是這個部分其實還沒有解密然後這個沒有解密可是跟這個案子關係又這麼密切的人他不但在直播在媒體在很多的像政論節目他發表很多公開的訊息他是直接接觸的還包括他的錄音都已經被披露出來像這樣子他的身份是可以這樣子做嗎他有簽保密協定嗎他有簽保密協定嗎\n\n45\n00:16:05,093 --> 00:16:23,238\n郭先生有簽保密協定嗎?有,我們當初在審核,我們有一個簽核程序那至於他在外面其他的這些評論的部分他可以講嗎?今天我們在監督國家預算在監督整個國家政策的人\n\n46\n00:16:26,276 --> 00:16:26,677\n併請國防部長\n\n47\n00:16:55,639 --> 00:16:58,620\n都在那裡賣軍警用品跟對岸關係這麼密切的人他來做我們絕對機密的案子還可以公開說了很多的話所以今天我想實際上關係我們沒有辦法提出很多可是如果我們的潛艦\n\n48\n00:17:12,725 --> 00:17:27,679\n要能夠成功,有一些弊端一定要把它清查清楚,不然對於整筆的預算還有所有它是不是會耗費掉,或者它所買的武器裝備是不是我們真正需求的,這個我們都會值得懷疑,因為\n\n49\n00:17:30,442 --> 00:17:55,111\n我們潛艦的召集人曾經說過我們用合法非正式管道我們中華民國的海軍人才輩出建軍百年我相信海內外都有非常多的人才他們的社群關係各方面也非常的多沒有理由在整個這麼高難度的一個案子只有郭顧問一個人可以\n\n50\n00:17:55,911 --> 00:17:55,971\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n631\t1975\t謝謝主席 麻煩請邱部長邱部長也請\n11082\t15785\t阿蘇阿維好部長好部長上週其實也有討論過那本因為剛好發生二單島的這個無人機的事件所以我們想要再探討一下就是說在國軍目前有建制兩個干擾系統案一個是由空軍同仇建案的\n31474\t53587\t目前是中科院在執行涵蓋三軍各單位的遙控無人機干擾系統另外一個就是我們之前研發失敗被監察院糾正現在是由陸軍另行巡商在統籌建案涵蓋陸海軍的無人機反制系統那我們現在想要看看因為它都是\n55785\t63932\t防禦的因為主要大概都是針對這兩套的衍生大概都是針對金門那時候受到大陸無人機侵擾的一個需求雖然他的名稱有差異可是他實際上大概都是防禦民用商規型的無人機那我們現在可能就是要看一下就這兩套系統他雖然名稱不一樣可是他第一他的那個\n83067\t84508\t無人機的反制系統的部分這個大概9億8\n110953\t136949\t做了26套,它最大的差異在哪裡?請陸軍講簡單回應好不好?報委員,我是陸軍事務副常務長我簡單就空軍跟陸軍這兩個建制第一個,空軍它的建制主要是運用在機場那機場它的幅員上面是相當大的你有沒有用在機場?當時在省預算的時候不是這麼說的\n137790\t138430\t所以它只差一個徵收雷達,對不對?\n164469\t188675\t跟無人機反制系統它只差了搜索雷達對不對?委員剛才說明的除了它還有干擾槍另外它還有一個光電的目獲系統那那個是我們陸軍在外島沒有這個光電目獲系統所以它整個的配置上面是跟陸軍的價格和所謂的功能性是不太一樣所以你的那個光電的目獲系統價格很高是嗎?\n192199\t192640\t包委員我是空間參謀長曹敬平我再做一點補充報告\n208962\t209082\t主席\n224645\t238917\t把那個規格跟那個預算的項目送給本席這邊好不好因為你現在說明的你們上一次拿來上一次拿一張上個禮拜到現在還沒拿過來對不對\n239878\t259799\t包委我們上次是用口頭說明因為比較詳細的數據我們就沒有留書面資料我們可以再去委員辦公室做仔細的說明這個是很機敏的嗎公開的預算你是很機敏的嗎它的功能就是這樣你就是多了這兩個東西可是你都是對於民用的無人機你做干擾像二檔的這個部分你會用什麼干擾槍\n261735\t285002\t二檔的這個你會用什麼?干擾槍?是用干擾槍?拿著,那它飛到上面大家才發現,你看得到嗎?你干擾槍那時候我們在審預算的時候我們說你用干擾槍根本是不符現實的需求,因為你說看到兩公里外,你兩公里那麼小的無人機,等你飛到你的上空的時候你的干擾槍在哪裡?\n286202\t308849\t這些部分我們希望大家在花這些預算的時候你一個40幾億一個10億總共加起來高達50幾億的預算你做的功能都是一樣的除了機場你說稍微有一些不一樣的包括雷達跟光天幕後系統以外我們看不出來它的差異到底在哪裡所以這個部分我們希望再提供具體的資料給本席好不好\n309329\t337072\t好 謝謝接下來我們要看一下的就是我們上一次我們今天討論了有很多我們的國防預算除了國防自主以外也有委員在關切就坑子口的這個訓場的部分坑子口的訓場其實在上一次的質詢的時候其實我們大概就已經有提到了其實這個預算其實是非常的不合理\n337913\t344323\t因為你本來高達12億的預算可是你把重要的一個部分通通把它砍掉10項你把它砍了5項\n348686\t371250\t尤其是訓練的部分那這些專管公司他當初在投標的時候他就已經知道我們必須要做的項目就是這些結果你得標了以後才說你的那個金額不足所有的都漲價我們全國不管是公共工程或者其他的建設你不道路也好提防也好所有的公共建設其實都會面臨這樣的問題可是其他的並沒有這樣延宕\n375111\t376993\t我們本來112年就要建制完成坑子口的這個訓場已經延到115年結果現在12億還不夠王釗緯上次也提說這個不夠可能還要再加價你要加多少?10億嗎?因為你減了一半啊尤其是重要的訓練的能量全部都把它拿掉了\n396688\t423074\t報告委員容我向您報告第一個專管公司他的整個評估他專管公司他不會是未來未必會是這個得標的廠商那像這個案子他的專管公司跟得標的廠商就是不同的公司所以並不是說他報多少就是多少那第二個實際上也真的是因為原物料上漲的原因那第二個剛剛委員講我們把我們把原規劃的11項\n424594\t424794\t財寶長,這個部分我要打斷你\n441601\t446465\t這個部分因為我們這個訓場這個我們本來就知道我們要做什麼當時我們的目的就是要做訓練結果我們把所有的訓練項目通通拿掉了還包括一些水電的這些相關的部分它固定式靶台還有機槍射擊的陣地訓場道路的整建\n464398\t474710\t把控台的這個教室還有電力電信管道的線路地下化工程全部都拿掉你拿來做什麼拿來做避彈屋拿來做機槍的備彈牆而且還做了水土保持工程這個水土保持工程原來本來沒有的\n483360\t503268\t結果你把應該要做訓練用的項目全部都拿掉以後你現在才說今年不夠了我們的訓場能量不夠了現在我們可能要追加預算這樣子是幫什麼樣子這是因為制度的關係還是人的關係你們當初拿掉的原因是什麼\n503928\t523376\t我跟委員報告,第一個堪茲口他的這個地理環境上的特殊上的需要那實際上水保工程剛開始專管公司跟我們所有的陸軍還有所有的設計單位所有層層把關的人都在做什麼你那時候都沒有發現要做水土保持結果水保工程你們剛開始都沒有納在裡面\n528518\t532260\t這本來的訓練場裡面通通沒有做那是後來才加進去的你們把錢用在那裡你剛開始都沒有發現這個有問題嗎所以這個部分我們希望你們做一個審慎的評估跟合理的一個\n543385\t557798\t一個書面的資料我想後續包括你的預算的運用不然你現在做了以後連訓練都不能訓練因為你即使做好了像我們電力電信的這些你都沒有做你即使做好了它還是不能用因為就沒有電啊你的那個活動靶場你的那個靶怎麼用\n561801\t573276\t所以我們的預算的運用還有你在工項刪減的部分其實是有很大的問題這個部分我們希望提出一個比較具體合理的一個說明書面資料好不好是的\n575730\t583075\t接下來我想因為這一次我們提到的是國防自主國防自主我們非常重要的有我們的國機國造有我們的國艦國造還有我們的飛彈還有現在的無人機等等其實有非常多的項目那我們現在想要討論一下就是我們的國艦國造的部分因為\n598186\t616479\t準總統就是我們現任已經當選的賴清德總統他未來其實也傾向就遣件的部分是希望可以一次把它完成不過如果對於比較專業或者我們作戰包括我們國防部所有\n617796\t642361\t尤其是海軍未來要用的我相信大家非常清楚他必須要有作戰功能那這作戰功能到底要怎麼樣去做測試以後大家才有一個好的一個作戰裝備我想這是非常重要的在這裡我想要再反推回去因為既然要做我們就要找出其中可能需要檢討的部分\n643629\t670337\t我想請教部長,這個案子還是絕對機密嗎?它已經解密了嗎?沒有,現在因為它已經原型艦弄好以後現在正在測試,目前它分兩個階段,一個播港,一個在海面上測試。像剛剛委員所講到,未來希望一次艦或分段艦,假如說已經定調了,但我們這個測試一定要做的,不會不會不做就直接跳過去了,一切以安全能夠作戰為主。\n671297\t675719\t因為像現在的測試大家都看到如果潛艦可以自己做出來大家都非常的高興可是因為它包裹在裡面所以大家看不到它到底實質的狀況是怎麼樣潛艦很重要的一個部分是它的一個重量控制重量控制也就是說它有很多的裝備\n698510\t698570\t併請國防部長\n724401\t739558\t我們在最初我們有一個臺船的顧問約我們還有一個海軍的顧問約這兩個對不對一個GL公司因為這個都已經是公開在媒體上面都有看過了那SIA是海軍顧問約我想請教臺船顧問約是新華和公司他得到的標案對不對\n747483\t753947\t我是海軍參謀長。新河河是JL在台灣的一個勞務跟其他他自己跟他的契約跟台船沒有關係\n764755\t766796\t跟臺船沒有關係,我想要看一下這個新華和還有這幾家公司它介入我們的臺船,就是介入我們的臺船的顧問約的部分這個公司負責人叫柴美娟,然後它有監察人叫陳清醒,董事林黎珍,董事陳希亮\n784887\t802095\t他還有其他相關的幾家公司：打華、鴻華、打鴻、遠景、安卓雲、打魚等等其實這幾家都有參與其中那這幾家裡面大家可能可以看到很多重複的名字負責人有郭熙、黃瓊惠還有陳清醒、陳希亮\n807936\t820924\t還有郭忠、郭琛等等還有林黎珍我想要讓大家看一看這個林黎珍在新華盒裡面他佔了94%因為他負責接送所有的相關的顧問當時這個介入這樣子的一個案子絕對機密的案子事實上他是必須要完全保密對不對\n834445\t834965\t絕對機密的案子包括廠商還有包括\n850239\t857485\t今天跟他接觸的人其實他都是非常重要的更何況這個人我剛剛念的這幾家公司他裡面包括郭喜還有一個黃瓊慧黃瓊慧就是郭喜的太太還有一個陳希亮他是郭喜的外甥陳清行是郭喜的姐夫林黎珍是郭喜的太太的阿姨他就是新華盒裡面佔比94%的這樣子的一個股東\n878382\t882705\t全部都是家族然後今天得標以後他是我們的設計約的顧問結果在我們的海軍顧問約也是新華河他引進的\n893839\t897901\t報言這可能海軍的顧問約並不是新華和只有跟GL他是GL在台灣的他們兩個契約行為我們我先簡單因為時間的關係我們會持續安排專案今天這一次來\n910647\t914488\t外交國防委員會的委員其實他們過去都沒有接觸過即使他們到聽途說有些甚至在外面講了很多的話他們對這個案子完全不懂所以未來我們可以安排專案報告甚至所有顯見的內容我們希望他們至少知道一點以後大家再來發表意見可是我現在要講的\n934895\t959787\t就是這個部分其實還沒有解密然後這個沒有解密可是跟這個案子關係又這麼密切的人他不但在直播在媒體在很多的像政論節目他發表很多公開的訊息他是直接接觸的還包括他的錄音都已經被披露出來像這樣子他的身份是可以這樣子做嗎他有簽保密協定嗎他有簽保密協定嗎\n965093\t983238\t郭先生有簽保密協定嗎?有,我們當初在審核,我們有一個簽核程序那至於他在外面其他的這些評論的部分他可以講嗎?今天我們在監督國家預算在監督整個國家政策的人\n986276\t986677\t併請國防部長\n1015639\t1018620\t都在那裡賣軍警用品跟對岸關係這麼密切的人他來做我們絕對機密的案子還可以公開說了很多的話所以今天我想實際上關係我們沒有辦法提出很多可是如果我們的潛艦\n1032725\t1047679\t要能夠成功,有一些弊端一定要把它清查清楚,不然對於整筆的預算還有所有它是不是會耗費掉,或者它所買的武器裝備是不是我們真正需求的,這個我們都會值得懷疑,因為\n1050442\t1075111\t我們潛艦的召集人曾經說過我們用合法非正式管道我們中華民國的海軍人才輩出建軍百年我相信海內外都有非常多的人才他們的社群關係各方面也非常的多沒有理由在整個這麼高難度的一個案子只有郭顧問一個人可以\n1075911\t1075971\t主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請邱部長邱部長也請\n阿蘇阿維好部長好部長上週其實也有討論過那本因為剛好發生二單島的這個無人機的事件所以我們想要再探討一下就是說在國軍目前有建制兩個干擾系統案一個是由空軍同仇建案的\n目前是中科院在執行涵蓋三軍各單位的遙控無人機干擾系統另外一個就是我們之前研發失敗被監察院糾正現在是由陸軍另行巡商在統籌建案涵蓋陸海軍的無人機反制系統那我們現在想要看看因為它都是\n防禦的因為主要大概都是針對這兩套的衍生大概都是針對金門那時候受到大陸無人機侵擾的一個需求雖然他的名稱有差異可是他實際上大概都是防禦民用商規型的無人機那我們現在可能就是要看一下就這兩套系統他雖然名稱不一樣可是他第一他的那個\n無人機的反制系統的部分這個大概9億8\n做了26套,它最大的差異在哪裡?請陸軍講簡單回應好不好?報委員,我是陸軍事務副常務長我簡單就空軍跟陸軍這兩個建制第一個,空軍它的建制主要是運用在機場那機場它的幅員上面是相當大的你有沒有用在機場?當時在省預算的時候不是這麼說的\n所以它只差一個徵收雷達,對不對?\n跟無人機反制系統它只差了搜索雷達對不對?委員剛才說明的除了它還有干擾槍另外它還有一個光電的目獲系統那那個是我們陸軍在外島沒有這個光電目獲系統所以它整個的配置上面是跟陸軍的價格和所謂的功能性是不太一樣所以你的那個光電的目獲系統價格很高是嗎?\n包委員我是空間參謀長曹敬平我再做一點補充報告\n主席\n把那個規格跟那個預算的項目送給本席這邊好不好因為你現在說明的你們上一次拿來上一次拿一張上個禮拜到現在還沒拿過來對不對\n包委我們上次是用口頭說明因為比較詳細的數據我們就沒有留書面資料我們可以再去委員辦公室做仔細的說明這個是很機敏的嗎公開的預算你是很機敏的嗎它的功能就是這樣你就是多了這兩個東西可是你都是對於民用的無人機你做干擾像二檔的這個部分你會用什麼干擾槍\n二檔的這個你會用什麼?干擾槍?是用干擾槍?拿著,那它飛到上面大家才發現,你看得到嗎?你干擾槍那時候我們在審預算的時候我們說你用干擾槍根本是不符現實的需求,因為你說看到兩公里外,你兩公里那麼小的無人機,等你飛到你的上空的時候你的干擾槍在哪裡?\n這些部分我們希望大家在花這些預算的時候你一個40幾億一個10億總共加起來高達50幾億的預算你做的功能都是一樣的除了機場你說稍微有一些不一樣的包括雷達跟光天幕後系統以外我們看不出來它的差異到底在哪裡所以這個部分我們希望再提供具體的資料給本席好不好\n好 謝謝接下來我們要看一下的就是我們上一次我們今天討論了有很多我們的國防預算除了國防自主以外也有委員在關切就坑子口的這個訓場的部分坑子口的訓場其實在上一次的質詢的時候其實我們大概就已經有提到了其實這個預算其實是非常的不合理\n因為你本來高達12億的預算可是你把重要的一個部分通通把它砍掉10項你把它砍了5項\n尤其是訓練的部分那這些專管公司他當初在投標的時候他就已經知道我們必須要做的項目就是這些結果你得標了以後才說你的那個金額不足所有的都漲價我們全國不管是公共工程或者其他的建設你不道路也好提防也好所有的公共建設其實都會面臨這樣的問題可是其他的並沒有這樣延宕\n我們本來112年就要建制完成坑子口的這個訓場已經延到115年結果現在12億還不夠王釗緯上次也提說這個不夠可能還要再加價你要加多少?10億嗎?因為你減了一半啊尤其是重要的訓練的能量全部都把它拿掉了\n報告委員容我向您報告第一個專管公司他的整個評估他專管公司他不會是未來未必會是這個得標的廠商那像這個案子他的專管公司跟得標的廠商就是不同的公司所以並不是說他報多少就是多少那第二個實際上也真的是因為原物料上漲的原因那第二個剛剛委員講我們把我們把原規劃的11項\n財寶長,這個部分我要打斷你\n這個部分因為我們這個訓場這個我們本來就知道我們要做什麼當時我們的目的就是要做訓練結果我們把所有的訓練項目通通拿掉了還包括一些水電的這些相關的部分它固定式靶台還有機槍射擊的陣地訓場道路的整建\n把控台的這個教室還有電力電信管道的線路地下化工程全部都拿掉你拿來做什麼拿來做避彈屋拿來做機槍的備彈牆而且還做了水土保持工程這個水土保持工程原來本來沒有的\n結果你把應該要做訓練用的項目全部都拿掉以後你現在才說今年不夠了我們的訓場能量不夠了現在我們可能要追加預算這樣子是幫什麼樣子這是因為制度的關係還是人的關係你們當初拿掉的原因是什麼\n我跟委員報告,第一個堪茲口他的這個地理環境上的特殊上的需要那實際上水保工程剛開始專管公司跟我們所有的陸軍還有所有的設計單位所有層層把關的人都在做什麼你那時候都沒有發現要做水土保持結果水保工程你們剛開始都沒有納在裡面\n這本來的訓練場裡面通通沒有做那是後來才加進去的你們把錢用在那裡你剛開始都沒有發現這個有問題嗎所以這個部分我們希望你們做一個審慎的評估跟合理的一個\n一個書面的資料我想後續包括你的預算的運用不然你現在做了以後連訓練都不能訓練因為你即使做好了像我們電力電信的這些你都沒有做你即使做好了它還是不能用因為就沒有電啊你的那個活動靶場你的那個靶怎麼用\n所以我們的預算的運用還有你在工項刪減的部分其實是有很大的問題這個部分我們希望提出一個比較具體合理的一個說明書面資料好不好是的\n接下來我想因為這一次我們提到的是國防自主國防自主我們非常重要的有我們的國機國造有我們的國艦國造還有我們的飛彈還有現在的無人機等等其實有非常多的項目那我們現在想要討論一下就是我們的國艦國造的部分因為\n準總統就是我們現任已經當選的賴清德總統他未來其實也傾向就遣件的部分是希望可以一次把它完成不過如果對於比較專業或者我們作戰包括我們國防部所有\n尤其是海軍未來要用的我相信大家非常清楚他必須要有作戰功能那這作戰功能到底要怎麼樣去做測試以後大家才有一個好的一個作戰裝備我想這是非常重要的在這裡我想要再反推回去因為既然要做我們就要找出其中可能需要檢討的部分\n我想請教部長,這個案子還是絕對機密嗎?它已經解密了嗎?沒有,現在因為它已經原型艦弄好以後現在正在測試,目前它分兩個階段,一個播港,一個在海面上測試。像剛剛委員所講到,未來希望一次艦或分段艦,假如說已經定調了,但我們這個測試一定要做的,不會不會不做就直接跳過去了,一切以安全能夠作戰為主。\n因為像現在的測試大家都看到如果潛艦可以自己做出來大家都非常的高興可是因為它包裹在裡面所以大家看不到它到底實質的狀況是怎麼樣潛艦很重要的一個部分是它的一個重量控制重量控制也就是說它有很多的裝備\n併請國防部長\n我們在最初我們有一個臺船的顧問約我們還有一個海軍的顧問約這兩個對不對一個GL公司因為這個都已經是公開在媒體上面都有看過了那SIA是海軍顧問約我想請教臺船顧問約是新華和公司他得到的標案對不對\n我是海軍參謀長。新河河是JL在台灣的一個勞務跟其他他自己跟他的契約跟台船沒有關係\n跟臺船沒有關係,我想要看一下這個新華和還有這幾家公司它介入我們的臺船,就是介入我們的臺船的顧問約的部分這個公司負責人叫柴美娟,然後它有監察人叫陳清醒,董事林黎珍,董事陳希亮\n他還有其他相關的幾家公司：打華、鴻華、打鴻、遠景、安卓雲、打魚等等其實這幾家都有參與其中那這幾家裡面大家可能可以看到很多重複的名字負責人有郭熙、黃瓊惠還有陳清醒、陳希亮\n還有郭忠、郭琛等等還有林黎珍我想要讓大家看一看這個林黎珍在新華盒裡面他佔了94%因為他負責接送所有的相關的顧問當時這個介入這樣子的一個案子絕對機密的案子事實上他是必須要完全保密對不對\n絕對機密的案子包括廠商還有包括\n今天跟他接觸的人其實他都是非常重要的更何況這個人我剛剛念的這幾家公司他裡面包括郭喜還有一個黃瓊慧黃瓊慧就是郭喜的太太還有一個陳希亮他是郭喜的外甥陳清行是郭喜的姐夫林黎珍是郭喜的太太的阿姨他就是新華盒裡面佔比94%的這樣子的一個股東\n全部都是家族然後今天得標以後他是我們的設計約的顧問結果在我們的海軍顧問約也是新華河他引進的\n報言這可能海軍的顧問約並不是新華和只有跟GL他是GL在台灣的他們兩個契約行為我們我先簡單因為時間的關係我們會持續安排專案今天這一次來\n外交國防委員會的委員其實他們過去都沒有接觸過即使他們到聽途說有些甚至在外面講了很多的話他們對這個案子完全不懂所以未來我們可以安排專案報告甚至所有顯見的內容我們希望他們至少知道一點以後大家再來發表意見可是我現在要講的\n就是這個部分其實還沒有解密然後這個沒有解密可是跟這個案子關係又這麼密切的人他不但在直播在媒體在很多的像政論節目他發表很多公開的訊息他是直接接觸的還包括他的錄音都已經被披露出來像這樣子他的身份是可以這樣子做嗎他有簽保密協定嗎他有簽保密協定嗎\n郭先生有簽保密協定嗎?有,我們當初在審核,我們有一個簽核程序那至於他在外面其他的這些評論的部分他可以講嗎?今天我們在監督國家預算在監督整個國家政策的人\n併請國防部長\n都在那裡賣軍警用品跟對岸關係這麼密切的人他來做我們絕對機密的案子還可以公開說了很多的話所以今天我想實際上關係我們沒有辦法提出很多可是如果我們的潛艦\n要能夠成功,有一些弊端一定要把它清查清楚,不然對於整筆的預算還有所有它是不是會耗費掉,或者它所買的武器裝備是不是我們真正需求的,這個我們都會值得懷疑,因為\n我們潛艦的召集人曾經說過我們用合法非正式管道我們中華民國的海軍人才輩出建軍百年我相信海內外都有非常多的人才他們的社群關係各方面也非常的多沒有理由在整個這麼高難度的一個案子只有郭顧問一個人可以\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.631 --> 00:01.975\n謝謝主席麻煩請邱部長邱部長也請\n\n00:11.082 --> 00:15.785\n阿蘇阿維好部長好部長上週其實也有討論過那本因為剛好發生二單島的這個無人機的事件所以我們想要再探討一下就是說在國軍目前有建制兩個干擾系統案一個是由空軍同仇建案的\n\n00:31.474 --> 00:53.587\n目前是中科院在執行涵蓋三軍各單位的遙控無人機干擾系統另外一個就是我們之前研發失敗被監察院糾正現在是由陸軍另行巡商在統籌建案涵蓋陸海軍的無人機反制系統那我們現在想要看看因為它都是\n\n00:55.785 --> 01:03.932\n防禦的因為主要大概都是針對這兩套的衍生大概都是針對金門那時候受到大陸無人機侵擾的一個需求雖然他的名稱有差異可是他實際上大概都是防禦民用商規型的無人機那我們現在可能就是要看一下就這兩套系統他雖然名稱不一樣可是他第一他的那個\n\n01:23.067 --> 01:24.508\n無人機的反制系統的部分這個大概9億8\n\n01:50.953 --> 02:16.949\n做了26套,它最大的差異在哪裡?請陸軍講簡單回應好不好?報委員,我是陸軍事務副常務長我簡單就空軍跟陸軍這兩個建制第一個,空軍它的建制主要是運用在機場那機場它的幅員上面是相當大的你有沒有用在機場?當時在省預算的時候不是這麼說的\n\n02:17.790 --> 02:18.430\n所以它只差一個徵收雷達,對不對?\n\n02:44.469 --> 03:08.675\n跟無人機反制系統它只差了搜索雷達對不對?委員剛才說明的除了它還有干擾槍另外它還有一個光電的目獲系統那那個是我們陸軍在外島沒有這個光電目獲系統所以它整個的配置上面是跟陸軍的價格和所謂的功能性是不太一樣所以你的那個光電的目獲系統價格很高是嗎?\n\n03:12.199 --> 03:12.640\n包委員我是空間參謀長曹敬平我再做一點補充報告\n\n03:28.962 --> 03:29.082\n主席\n\n03:44.645 --> 03:58.917\n把那個規格跟那個預算的項目送給本席這邊好不好因為你現在說明的你們上一次拿來上一次拿一張上個禮拜到現在還沒拿過來對不對\n\n03:59.878 --> 04:19.799\n包委我們上次是用口頭說明因為比較詳細的數據我們就沒有留書面資料我們可以再去委員辦公室做仔細的說明這個是很機敏的嗎公開的預算你是很機敏的嗎它的功能就是這樣你就是多了這兩個東西可是你都是對於民用的無人機你做干擾像二檔的這個部分你會用什麼干擾槍\n\n04:21.735 --> 04:45.002\n二檔的這個你會用什麼?干擾槍?是用干擾槍?拿著,那它飛到上面大家才發現,你看得到嗎?你干擾槍那時候我們在審預算的時候我們說你用干擾槍根本是不符現實的需求,因為你說看到兩公里外,你兩公里那麼小的無人機,等你飛到你的上空的時候你的干擾槍在哪裡?\n\n04:46.202 --> 05:08.849\n這些部分我們希望大家在花這些預算的時候你一個40幾億一個10億總共加起來高達50幾億的預算你做的功能都是一樣的除了機場你說稍微有一些不一樣的包括雷達跟光天幕後系統以外我們看不出來它的差異到底在哪裡所以這個部分我們希望再提供具體的資料給本席好不好\n\n05:09.329 --> 05:37.072\n好謝謝接下來我們要看一下的就是我們上一次我們今天討論了有很多我們的國防預算除了國防自主以外也有委員在關切就坑子口的這個訓場的部分坑子口的訓場其實在上一次的質詢的時候其實我們大概就已經有提到了其實這個預算其實是非常的不合理\n\n05:37.913 --> 05:44.323\n因為你本來高達12億的預算可是你把重要的一個部分通通把它砍掉10項你把它砍了5項\n\n05:48.686 --> 06:11.250\n尤其是訓練的部分那這些專管公司他當初在投標的時候他就已經知道我們必須要做的項目就是這些結果你得標了以後才說你的那個金額不足所有的都漲價我們全國不管是公共工程或者其他的建設你不道路也好提防也好所有的公共建設其實都會面臨這樣的問題可是其他的並沒有這樣延宕\n\n06:15.111 --> 06:16.993\n我們本來112年就要建制完成坑子口的這個訓場已經延到115年結果現在12億還不夠王釗緯上次也提說這個不夠可能還要再加價你要加多少?10億嗎?因為你減了一半啊尤其是重要的訓練的能量全部都把它拿掉了\n\n06:36.688 --> 07:03.074\n報告委員容我向您報告第一個專管公司他的整個評估他專管公司他不會是未來未必會是這個得標的廠商那像這個案子他的專管公司跟得標的廠商就是不同的公司所以並不是說他報多少就是多少那第二個實際上也真的是因為原物料上漲的原因那第二個剛剛委員講我們把我們把原規劃的11項\n\n07:04.594 --> 07:04.794\n財寶長,這個部分我要打斷你\n\n07:21.601 --> 07:26.465\n這個部分因為我們這個訓場這個我們本來就知道我們要做什麼當時我們的目的就是要做訓練結果我們把所有的訓練項目通通拿掉了還包括一些水電的這些相關的部分它固定式靶台還有機槍射擊的陣地訓場道路的整建\n\n07:44.398 --> 07:54.710\n把控台的這個教室還有電力電信管道的線路地下化工程全部都拿掉你拿來做什麼拿來做避彈屋拿來做機槍的備彈牆而且還做了水土保持工程這個水土保持工程原來本來沒有的\n\n08:03.360 --> 08:23.268\n結果你把應該要做訓練用的項目全部都拿掉以後你現在才說今年不夠了我們的訓場能量不夠了現在我們可能要追加預算這樣子是幫什麼樣子這是因為制度的關係還是人的關係你們當初拿掉的原因是什麼\n\n08:23.928 --> 08:43.376\n我跟委員報告,第一個堪茲口他的這個地理環境上的特殊上的需要那實際上水保工程剛開始專管公司跟我們所有的陸軍還有所有的設計單位所有層層把關的人都在做什麼你那時候都沒有發現要做水土保持結果水保工程你們剛開始都沒有納在裡面\n\n08:48.518 --> 08:52.260\n這本來的訓練場裡面通通沒有做那是後來才加進去的你們把錢用在那裡你剛開始都沒有發現這個有問題嗎所以這個部分我們希望你們做一個審慎的評估跟合理的一個\n\n09:03.385 --> 09:17.798\n一個書面的資料我想後續包括你的預算的運用不然你現在做了以後連訓練都不能訓練因為你即使做好了像我們電力電信的這些你都沒有做你即使做好了它還是不能用因為就沒有電啊你的那個活動靶場你的那個靶怎麼用\n\n09:21.801 --> 09:33.276\n所以我們的預算的運用還有你在工項刪減的部分其實是有很大的問題這個部分我們希望提出一個比較具體合理的一個說明書面資料好不好是的\n\n09:35.730 --> 09:43.075\n接下來我想因為這一次我們提到的是國防自主國防自主我們非常重要的有我們的國機國造有我們的國艦國造還有我們的飛彈還有現在的無人機等等其實有非常多的項目那我們現在想要討論一下就是我們的國艦國造的部分因為\n\n09:58.186 --> 10:16.479\n準總統就是我們現任已經當選的賴清德總統他未來其實也傾向就遣件的部分是希望可以一次把它完成不過如果對於比較專業或者我們作戰包括我們國防部所有\n\n10:17.796 --> 10:42.361\n尤其是海軍未來要用的我相信大家非常清楚他必須要有作戰功能那這作戰功能到底要怎麼樣去做測試以後大家才有一個好的一個作戰裝備我想這是非常重要的在這裡我想要再反推回去因為既然要做我們就要找出其中可能需要檢討的部分\n\n10:43.629 --> 11:10.337\n我想請教部長,這個案子還是絕對機密嗎?它已經解密了嗎?沒有,現在因為它已經原型艦弄好以後現在正在測試,目前它分兩個階段,一個播港,一個在海面上測試。像剛剛委員所講到,未來希望一次艦或分段艦,假如說已經定調了,但我們這個測試一定要做的,不會不會不做就直接跳過去了,一切以安全能夠作戰為主。\n\n11:11.297 --> 11:15.719\n因為像現在的測試大家都看到如果潛艦可以自己做出來大家都非常的高興可是因為它包裹在裡面所以大家看不到它到底實質的狀況是怎麼樣潛艦很重要的一個部分是它的一個重量控制重量控制也就是說它有很多的裝備\n\n11:38.510 --> 11:38.570\n併請國防部長\n\n12:04.401 --> 12:19.558\n我們在最初我們有一個臺船的顧問約我們還有一個海軍的顧問約這兩個對不對一個GL公司因為這個都已經是公開在媒體上面都有看過了那SIA是海軍顧問約我想請教臺船顧問約是新華和公司他得到的標案對不對\n\n12:27.483 --> 12:33.947\n我是海軍參謀長。新河河是JL在台灣的一個勞務跟其他他自己跟他的契約跟台船沒有關係\n\n12:44.755 --> 12:46.796\n跟臺船沒有關係,我想要看一下這個新華和還有這幾家公司它介入我們的臺船,就是介入我們的臺船的顧問約的部分這個公司負責人叫柴美娟,然後它有監察人叫陳清醒,董事林黎珍,董事陳希亮\n\n13:04.887 --> 13:22.095\n他還有其他相關的幾家公司：打華、鴻華、打鴻、遠景、安卓雲、打魚等等其實這幾家都有參與其中那這幾家裡面大家可能可以看到很多重複的名字負責人有郭熙、黃瓊惠還有陳清醒、陳希亮\n\n13:27.936 --> 13:40.924\n還有郭忠、郭琛等等還有林黎珍我想要讓大家看一看這個林黎珍在新華盒裡面他佔了94%因為他負責接送所有的相關的顧問當時這個介入這樣子的一個案子絕對機密的案子事實上他是必須要完全保密對不對\n\n13:54.445 --> 13:54.965\n絕對機密的案子包括廠商還有包括\n\n14:10.239 --> 14:17.485\n今天跟他接觸的人其實他都是非常重要的更何況這個人我剛剛念的這幾家公司他裡面包括郭喜還有一個黃瓊慧黃瓊慧就是郭喜的太太還有一個陳希亮他是郭喜的外甥陳清行是郭喜的姐夫林黎珍是郭喜的太太的阿姨他就是新華盒裡面佔比94%的這樣子的一個股東\n\n14:38.382 --> 14:42.705\n全部都是家族然後今天得標以後他是我們的設計約的顧問結果在我們的海軍顧問約也是新華河他引進的\n\n14:53.839 --> 14:57.901\n報言這可能海軍的顧問約並不是新華和只有跟GL他是GL在台灣的他們兩個契約行為我們我先簡單因為時間的關係我們會持續安排專案今天這一次來\n\n15:10.647 --> 15:14.488\n外交國防委員會的委員其實他們過去都沒有接觸過即使他們到聽途說有些甚至在外面講了很多的話他們對這個案子完全不懂所以未來我們可以安排專案報告甚至所有顯見的內容我們希望他們至少知道一點以後大家再來發表意見可是我現在要講的\n\n15:34.895 --> 15:59.787\n就是這個部分其實還沒有解密然後這個沒有解密可是跟這個案子關係又這麼密切的人他不但在直播在媒體在很多的像政論節目他發表很多公開的訊息他是直接接觸的還包括他的錄音都已經被披露出來像這樣子他的身份是可以這樣子做嗎他有簽保密協定嗎他有簽保密協定嗎\n\n16:05.093 --> 16:23.238\n郭先生有簽保密協定嗎?有,我們當初在審核,我們有一個簽核程序那至於他在外面其他的這些評論的部分他可以講嗎?今天我們在監督國家預算在監督整個國家政策的人\n\n16:26.276 --> 16:26.677\n併請國防部長\n\n16:55.639 --> 16:58.620\n都在那裡賣軍警用品跟對岸關係這麼密切的人他來做我們絕對機密的案子還可以公開說了很多的話所以今天我想實際上關係我們沒有辦法提出很多可是如果我們的潛艦\n\n17:12.725 --> 17:27.679\n要能夠成功,有一些弊端一定要把它清查清楚,不然對於整筆的預算還有所有它是不是會耗費掉,或者它所買的武器裝備是不是我們真正需求的,這個我們都會值得懷疑,因為\n\n17:30.442 --> 17:55.111\n我們潛艦的召集人曾經說過我們用合法非正式管道我們中華民國的海軍人才輩出建軍百年我相信海內外都有非常多的人才他們的社群關係各方面也非常的多沒有理由在整個這麼高難度的一個案子只有郭顧問一個人可以\n\n17:55.911 --> 17:55.971\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.631,"end":1.975,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請邱部長邱部長也請"},{"start":11.082,"end":15.785,"text":"阿蘇阿維好部長好部長上週其實也有討論過那本因為剛好發生二單島的這個無人機的事件所以我們想要再探討一下就是說在國軍目前有建制兩個干擾系統案一個是由空軍同仇建案的"},{"start":31.474,"end":53.587,"text":"目前是中科院在執行涵蓋三軍各單位的遙控無人機干擾系統另外一個就是我們之前研發失敗被監察院糾正現在是由陸軍另行巡商在統籌建案涵蓋陸海軍的無人機反制系統那我們現在想要看看因為它都是"},{"start":55.785,"end":63.932,"text":"防禦的因為主要大概都是針對這兩套的衍生大概都是針對金門那時候受到大陸無人機侵擾的一個需求雖然他的名稱有差異可是他實際上大概都是防禦民用商規型的無人機那我們現在可能就是要看一下就這兩套系統他雖然名稱不一樣可是他第一他的那個"},{"start":83.067,"end":84.508,"text":"無人機的反制系統的部分這個大概9億8"},{"start":110.953,"end":136.949,"text":"做了26套,它最大的差異在哪裡?請陸軍講簡單回應好不好?報委員,我是陸軍事務副常務長我簡單就空軍跟陸軍這兩個建制第一個,空軍它的建制主要是運用在機場那機場它的幅員上面是相當大的你有沒有用在機場?當時在省預算的時候不是這麼說的"},{"start":137.79,"end":138.43,"text":"所以它只差一個徵收雷達,對不對?"},{"start":164.469,"end":188.675,"text":"跟無人機反制系統它只差了搜索雷達對不對?委員剛才說明的除了它還有干擾槍另外它還有一個光電的目獲系統那那個是我們陸軍在外島沒有這個光電目獲系統所以它整個的配置上面是跟陸軍的價格和所謂的功能性是不太一樣所以你的那個光電的目獲系統價格很高是嗎?"},{"start":192.199,"end":192.64,"text":"包委員我是空間參謀長曹敬平我再做一點補充報告"},{"start":208.962,"end":209.082,"text":"主席"},{"start":224.645,"end":238.917,"text":"把那個規格跟那個預算的項目送給本席這邊好不好因為你現在說明的你們上一次拿來上一次拿一張上個禮拜到現在還沒拿過來對不對"},{"start":239.878,"end":259.799,"text":"包委我們上次是用口頭說明因為比較詳細的數據我們就沒有留書面資料我們可以再去委員辦公室做仔細的說明這個是很機敏的嗎公開的預算你是很機敏的嗎它的功能就是這樣你就是多了這兩個東西可是你都是對於民用的無人機你做干擾像二檔的這個部分你會用什麼干擾槍"},{"start":261.735,"end":285.002,"text":"二檔的這個你會用什麼?干擾槍?是用干擾槍?拿著,那它飛到上面大家才發現,你看得到嗎?你干擾槍那時候我們在審預算的時候我們說你用干擾槍根本是不符現實的需求,因為你說看到兩公里外,你兩公里那麼小的無人機,等你飛到你的上空的時候你的干擾槍在哪裡?"},{"start":286.202,"end":308.849,"text":"這些部分我們希望大家在花這些預算的時候你一個40幾億一個10億總共加起來高達50幾億的預算你做的功能都是一樣的除了機場你說稍微有一些不一樣的包括雷達跟光天幕後系統以外我們看不出來它的差異到底在哪裡所以這個部分我們希望再提供具體的資料給本席好不好"},{"start":309.329,"end":337.072,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們要看一下的就是我們上一次我們今天討論了有很多我們的國防預算除了國防自主以外也有委員在關切就坑子口的這個訓場的部分坑子口的訓場其實在上一次的質詢的時候其實我們大概就已經有提到了其實這個預算其實是非常的不合理"},{"start":337.913,"end":344.323,"text":"因為你本來高達12億的預算可是你把重要的一個部分通通把它砍掉10項你把它砍了5項"},{"start":348.686,"end":371.25,"text":"尤其是訓練的部分那這些專管公司他當初在投標的時候他就已經知道我們必須要做的項目就是這些結果你得標了以後才說你的那個金額不足所有的都漲價我們全國不管是公共工程或者其他的建設你不道路也好提防也好所有的公共建設其實都會面臨這樣的問題可是其他的並沒有這樣延宕"},{"start":375.111,"end":376.993,"text":"我們本來112年就要建制完成坑子口的這個訓場已經延到115年結果現在12億還不夠王釗緯上次也提說這個不夠可能還要再加價你要加多少?10億嗎?因為你減了一半啊尤其是重要的訓練的能量全部都把它拿掉了"},{"start":396.688,"end":423.074,"text":"報告委員容我向您報告第一個專管公司他的整個評估他專管公司他不會是未來未必會是這個得標的廠商那像這個案子他的專管公司跟得標的廠商就是不同的公司所以並不是說他報多少就是多少那第二個實際上也真的是因為原物料上漲的原因那第二個剛剛委員講我們把我們把原規劃的11項"},{"start":424.594,"end":424.794,"text":"財寶長,這個部分我要打斷你"},{"start":441.601,"end":446.465,"text":"這個部分因為我們這個訓場這個我們本來就知道我們要做什麼當時我們的目的就是要做訓練結果我們把所有的訓練項目通通拿掉了還包括一些水電的這些相關的部分它固定式靶台還有機槍射擊的陣地訓場道路的整建"},{"start":464.398,"end":474.71,"text":"把控台的這個教室還有電力電信管道的線路地下化工程全部都拿掉你拿來做什麼拿來做避彈屋拿來做機槍的備彈牆而且還做了水土保持工程這個水土保持工程原來本來沒有的"},{"start":483.36,"end":503.268,"text":"結果你把應該要做訓練用的項目全部都拿掉以後你現在才說今年不夠了我們的訓場能量不夠了現在我們可能要追加預算這樣子是幫什麼樣子這是因為制度的關係還是人的關係你們當初拿掉的原因是什麼"},{"start":503.928,"end":523.376,"text":"我跟委員報告,第一個堪茲口他的這個地理環境上的特殊上的需要那實際上水保工程剛開始專管公司跟我們所有的陸軍還有所有的設計單位所有層層把關的人都在做什麼你那時候都沒有發現要做水土保持結果水保工程你們剛開始都沒有納在裡面"},{"start":528.518,"end":532.26,"text":"這本來的訓練場裡面通通沒有做那是後來才加進去的你們把錢用在那裡你剛開始都沒有發現這個有問題嗎所以這個部分我們希望你們做一個審慎的評估跟合理的一個"},{"start":543.385,"end":557.798,"text":"一個書面的資料我想後續包括你的預算的運用不然你現在做了以後連訓練都不能訓練因為你即使做好了像我們電力電信的這些你都沒有做你即使做好了它還是不能用因為就沒有電啊你的那個活動靶場你的那個靶怎麼用"},{"start":561.801,"end":573.276,"text":"所以我們的預算的運用還有你在工項刪減的部分其實是有很大的問題這個部分我們希望提出一個比較具體合理的一個說明書面資料好不好是的"},{"start":575.73,"end":583.075,"text":"接下來我想因為這一次我們提到的是國防自主國防自主我們非常重要的有我們的國機國造有我們的國艦國造還有我們的飛彈還有現在的無人機等等其實有非常多的項目那我們現在想要討論一下就是我們的國艦國造的部分因為"},{"start":598.186,"end":616.479,"text":"準總統就是我們現任已經當選的賴清德總統他未來其實也傾向就遣件的部分是希望可以一次把它完成不過如果對於比較專業或者我們作戰包括我們國防部所有"},{"start":617.796,"end":642.361,"text":"尤其是海軍未來要用的我相信大家非常清楚他必須要有作戰功能那這作戰功能到底要怎麼樣去做測試以後大家才有一個好的一個作戰裝備我想這是非常重要的在這裡我想要再反推回去因為既然要做我們就要找出其中可能需要檢討的部分"},{"start":643.629,"end":670.337,"text":"我想請教部長,這個案子還是絕對機密嗎?它已經解密了嗎?沒有,現在因為它已經原型艦弄好以後現在正在測試,目前它分兩個階段,一個播港,一個在海面上測試。像剛剛委員所講到,未來希望一次艦或分段艦,假如說已經定調了,但我們這個測試一定要做的,不會不會不做就直接跳過去了,一切以安全能夠作戰為主。"},{"start":671.297,"end":675.719,"text":"因為像現在的測試大家都看到如果潛艦可以自己做出來大家都非常的高興可是因為它包裹在裡面所以大家看不到它到底實質的狀況是怎麼樣潛艦很重要的一個部分是它的一個重量控制重量控制也就是說它有很多的裝備"},{"start":698.51,"end":698.57,"text":"併請國防部長"},{"start":724.401,"end":739.558,"text":"我們在最初我們有一個臺船的顧問約我們還有一個海軍的顧問約這兩個對不對一個GL公司因為這個都已經是公開在媒體上面都有看過了那SIA是海軍顧問約我想請教臺船顧問約是新華和公司他得到的標案對不對"},{"start":747.483,"end":753.947,"text":"我是海軍參謀長。新河河是JL在台灣的一個勞務跟其他他自己跟他的契約跟台船沒有關係"},{"start":764.755,"end":766.796,"text":"跟臺船沒有關係,我想要看一下這個新華和還有這幾家公司它介入我們的臺船,就是介入我們的臺船的顧問約的部分這個公司負責人叫柴美娟,然後它有監察人叫陳清醒,董事林黎珍,董事陳希亮"},{"start":784.887,"end":802.095,"text":"他還有其他相關的幾家公司：打華、鴻華、打鴻、遠景、安卓雲、打魚等等其實這幾家都有參與其中那這幾家裡面大家可能可以看到很多重複的名字負責人有郭熙、黃瓊惠還有陳清醒、陳希亮"},{"start":807.936,"end":820.924,"text":"還有郭忠、郭琛等等還有林黎珍我想要讓大家看一看這個林黎珍在新華盒裡面他佔了94%因為他負責接送所有的相關的顧問當時這個介入這樣子的一個案子絕對機密的案子事實上他是必須要完全保密對不對"},{"start":834.445,"end":834.965,"text":"絕對機密的案子包括廠商還有包括"},{"start":850.239,"end":857.485,"text":"今天跟他接觸的人其實他都是非常重要的更何況這個人我剛剛念的這幾家公司他裡面包括郭喜還有一個黃瓊慧黃瓊慧就是郭喜的太太還有一個陳希亮他是郭喜的外甥陳清行是郭喜的姐夫林黎珍是郭喜的太太的阿姨他就是新華盒裡面佔比94%的這樣子的一個股東"},{"start":878.382,"end":882.705,"text":"全部都是家族然後今天得標以後他是我們的設計約的顧問結果在我們的海軍顧問約也是新華河他引進的"},{"start":893.839,"end":897.901,"text":"報言這可能海軍的顧問約並不是新華和只有跟GL他是GL在台灣的他們兩個契約行為我們我先簡單因為時間的關係我們會持續安排專案今天這一次來"},{"start":910.647,"end":914.488,"text":"外交國防委員會的委員其實他們過去都沒有接觸過即使他們到聽途說有些甚至在外面講了很多的話他們對這個案子完全不懂所以未來我們可以安排專案報告甚至所有顯見的內容我們希望他們至少知道一點以後大家再來發表意見可是我現在要講的"},{"start":934.895,"end":959.787,"text":"就是這個部分其實還沒有解密然後這個沒有解密可是跟這個案子關係又這麼密切的人他不但在直播在媒體在很多的像政論節目他發表很多公開的訊息他是直接接觸的還包括他的錄音都已經被披露出來像這樣子他的身份是可以這樣子做嗎他有簽保密協定嗎他有簽保密協定嗎"},{"start":965.093,"end":983.238,"text":"郭先生有簽保密協定嗎?有,我們當初在審核,我們有一個簽核程序那至於他在外面其他的這些評論的部分他可以講嗎?今天我們在監督國家預算在監督整個國家政策的人"},{"start":986.276,"end":986.677,"text":"併請國防部長"},{"start":1015.639,"end":1018.62,"text":"都在那裡賣軍警用品跟對岸關係這麼密切的人他來做我們絕對機密的案子還可以公開說了很多的話所以今天我想實際上關係我們沒有辦法提出很多可是如果我們的潛艦"},{"start":1032.725,"end":1047.679,"text":"要能夠成功,有一些弊端一定要把它清查清楚,不然對於整筆的預算還有所有它是不是會耗費掉,或者它所買的武器裝備是不是我們真正需求的,這個我們都會值得懷疑,因為"},{"start":1050.442,"end":1075.111,"text":"我們潛艦的召集人曾經說過我們用合法非正式管道我們中華民國的海軍人才輩出建軍百年我相信海內外都有非常多的人才他們的社群關係各方面也非常的多沒有理由在整個這麼高難度的一個案子只有郭顧問一個人可以"},{"start":1075.911,"end":1075.971,"text":"主席"}]}}}}