{"id":150742,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150742","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0a24682e968ed74cd9e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a696fa539d5614b54a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:59:37 - 11:10:55","影片長度":"00:11:18","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":678,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:10:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T10:59:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時59分）主席，有請立法院、司法院還有法務部。"],["主席：請秘書長、次長及副秘書長上台。"],["周秘書長萬來：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：首先第一個就教於三位，幫我們開示一下，就是民進黨總召柯建銘曾經說過，對於國情報告，他主張即問即答，請問一下秘書長，你覺得有沒有違憲？"],["周秘書長萬來：我上次已經報告過，因為這個本身就是我們立法形成，因為國情報告到立法院來，我們有決定權嘛，我上次也跟羅委員報告過……"],["羅委員智強：對，沒錯。"],["周秘書長萬來：至於第十五條之四怎麼修，當然我們有立法政策的形成，我們有選擇權……"],["羅委員智強：所以這是立法政策形成的權力？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們有選擇的處理。"],["羅委員智強：好，就是剛剛秘書長所講的，這有立法形成的權力嘛！我想請教副秘書長，對於柯建銘說國情報告採即問即答，你覺得違憲了嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，就我們司法院憲法法庭到現在為止，目前並沒有相關的解釋啦，司法院基本上是負責司法行政的，並不適合就合不合憲部分去表示意見，請委員諒解。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，那我想請教，現在有大法官在座嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：現在應該沒有大法官列席。"],["羅委員智強：沒有大法官在座。立法委員也不是大法官嘛，對不對？如果直接就喊說國情報告即問即答違憲，最後是要誰來決定有沒有違憲？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，如果將來有憲法訴訟的話，當然是由大法官的憲法法庭去審理。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，就是大法官說了算啊！我再請教次長，柯建銘總召說國情報告即問即答，你覺得有違憲嗎？"],["陳次長明堂：這個是他個人表達意見，我們現行法確實是沒有即問即答嘛，剛才周秘書長也提到將來修法有立法形成的空間，至於會不會違反憲法或憲政原理等等這些的話，最終應該是大法官才能宣告。"],["羅委員智強：好，非常謝謝喔！所以在這邊我先針對國情報告的部分，實際上國民黨版本叫做即時詢答啦，即時詢答其實有包含不同種模式，即問即答是模式一，一問一答是模式二，至於統問統答是模式三，所以換言之，即時詢答也有不同的詢答模式，這些事實上不只是可以透過立法形成，將來有一個法律的授權之後，也可以透過黨團協商來決定具體的詢答模式，所以本席倒是認為不用過早的妄論所謂的即問即答或是即時詢答是所謂違憲的形式。因為以目前來講，司法院講得很清楚，大法官對於這個部分，不管是憲法法庭或過去的釋憲案對此也並沒有做出一個判斷，所以換言之，這個部分我還是比較傾向認同剛剛我們周秘書長講的，應該是一個立法形成的權力，所以讓立法院來進行決定。","第二個，我就要問到有關於國會聽證調查，我想引一段我們賴清德委員在他的法律案連署裡面的法律理由，想聽聽三位的意見，看看有沒有違憲。立法院的調查權不是為司法，不是為監察，而是基於質詢權，立法院的調查權是基於立法院的質詢權、議決權而生的。對於賴清德委員當時連署的法案的立法理由，不知道秘書長您覺得在2009年的這個說法有違憲問題嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有啊！"],["羅委員智強：沒有嘛？"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["羅委員智強：我們副秘書長覺得呢？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：一樣，跟委員報告，因為我們是司法行政，不是……"],["羅委員智強：也不是你決定啦！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對。"],["羅委員智強：次長覺得呢？"],["陳次長明堂：大法官第585號解釋是有肯認立法院有調查權，不過他的範圍還是要在憲政的範圍之下來做處理。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，就是基本上認為調查權是立法的固有權力嘛，伴隨立法院的議案權跟質詢權，事實上調查權是他的固有權。我再引一位我們非常尊敬的政界前輩高雄市長陳其邁的發言，他也曾經公開主張，當立法院失去了調查權就是一個無牙的老虎，事實上是侵犯憲政上立法院該有的一個權力。當然，立法院的聽證調查該如何進行，事實上全世界各國多有實例嘛，能不能請我們的秘書長跟大家稍微介紹一下其他國家的聽證調查大概的範示是什麼？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們的法制局有針對國會的聽證調查做過研究，在範圍上不完全相同，因為我們有第585號解釋，第585號解釋裡面對於它的範圍上可能有做一些限制啦，所以我們委員的很多版本也是有把它排除，比如像行政特權或基本人權等等，大概都必須要稍微把它排除在外。至於聽證調查裡面的相關範圍、界限，甚至於像類似對國會藐視，因為每一個國家是不一樣的，我們法制局所做的研究是提供給各委員參考，各個國家制度上的設計，我們也做了很厚一本有關聽證調查權的報告給各位委員參考。"],["羅委員智強：好，非常謝謝周秘書長，實際上那個報告我也看過了，依照目前來看的話，全世界各國對聽證調查的行使方式跟範圍有寬有廣啦，規範的程序也未必完全一致，但是很多主要的民主國家基本上國會都是有聽證調查的，所以在這種情況之下，這也顯現我們立法院在民主國家的發展過程當中，其實這個部分我認為是退步的，是不夠進步的。這次國會改革法案就是要能夠補充，不管是釋字第585號講的有關立法職能的缺陷，事實上也是要跟進全世界各個主要民主國家所採取的聽證調查制度，我這樣的認知，不知道秘書長認不認同？"],["周秘書長萬來：我同意，因為本來第585號解釋以後，我們當時的職權行使法是在文件調閱，在88年的時候是以第325號解釋作基礎，到第585號解釋以後就不一樣了，所以多數委員認為對於這一個部分是需要填補，所以委員也針對這個部分提了很多修正案，大家藉這個情況來做研擬，委員針對這個部分如果覺得哪方面能夠都符合第585號解釋的意旨，我想我們的職權行使法在運作上會更加強化。"],["羅委員智強：非常謝謝秘書長。我在這邊其實也跟各位提醒一下，事實上，民進黨在這次國民黨黨團提出國會改革法案之前，現在民進黨有51位立法委員，扣除14位新科立委，也就是有37位連任立委，裡面有31位、高達84%過去都簽署過相關國會聽證調查的國會改革法案。也就是說，以我們現在司法及法制委員會的成員來看，現在民進黨參加司法及法制委員會的有柯建銘、吳思瑤、鍾佳濱、莊瑞雄、陳俊宇、沈發惠等委員，其中也只有陳俊宇委員在過去我沒有查到有關於國會改革的主張。","當然國會改革聽證調查的內容要怎麼設計，我覺得大家可以再去做法案的討論，但是國會的聽證調查，基本上不管是民主國家或是從我們本身的臺灣民主發展來說，都是國會的一個必要職能，所以我也希望能夠從這一點來提供大家一個參考。","接下來我想再請教一下，我想請秘書長說明一下有關藐視國會的各國立法例的狀況大概是如何。"],["周秘書長萬來：藐視國會的部分，有些是行政法在處理，有些是刑法，因為我剛也報告過，就第585號解釋裡面是有一點限縮性，所以現在變成委員的提案版本裡面有些是增加刑罰，所以我才在報告裡提到學者的主張都不一樣，我們法制局請來的學者所表達的主張不一樣，所以我才說這是立法政策的選擇，是這樣的。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝秘書長。事實上我也看過相關的報告，基本上不管是行政罰或是刑事罰，在其他國家的立法例都有，當然一個輕、一個重，至於在我們接下來的國會改革法案當中，至少藐視國會該有相當的處罰，或是妨礙聽證調查該有相當的處罰，這一點不違憲吧？至少處罰的這件事情。"],["周秘書長萬來：處罰是在第585號解釋中有的。"],["羅委員智強：沒錯嘛，只是處罰的形式、手段跟程度。可能有討論的空間。那也很簡單啊！將來在審議法案時，我們來討論什麼樣的處罰合乎比例性，什麼樣的處罰比較可能是憲政上所允許，什麼樣的處罰，按照世界各國的先例來講，比較能夠輔佐立法院的職能，這應該都可以透過立法形成的過程當中，我們進一步地來確認。"],["周秘書長萬來：是，羅委員說的是。"],["羅委員智強：非常謝謝秘書長。以上，感謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們就依照先前的宣布，先休息5分鐘，5分鐘之後由鍾佳濱委員繼續詢答。謝謝。","休息（11時11分）","繼續開會（11時16分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","劉建國"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊\n瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院\n職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四\n條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條\n之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五\n條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中\n華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案；\n三、審查(一)委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(三)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案【僅進\n行詢答】","agenda_id":"1132301_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"150742","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150742","tool":"pyannote","id":"150742-pyannote"},"job_id":"RJNAiVuXe7g4YGwj","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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00:00:56,033\n首先我想第一個就叫三位幫我們開示一下就是柯建民民進黨的總召曾經說過國情報告他主張急問急答請問一下秘書長你覺得有沒有違憲我上次有已經報告過吧因為這個本身就是我們立完這個行程因為\n\n3\n00:00:57,819 --> 00:01:23,144\n國情報告到立法院來我們有決定權我上次也跟委員報告過吧那至於15條之事怎麼修當然我們有立法政策的形成嘛對所以這是立法政策形成的權利我們有選擇的處分對好就是剛剛秘書長講這個立法這個的形成的權利嘛那我想請教這個副秘書長你覺得柯建民說國情報告才急問急答你覺得違憲了嗎\n\n4\n00:01:25,044 --> 00:01:44,428\n跟委員報告那就我們司法院憲法法庭到現在為止目前並沒有相關的這個解釋啦那司法院基本上我們是負責司法行政的並不適合就合不合憲部分就表示意見非常好那我想請教現在在座的有大法官在座嗎我們現在應該沒有大法官在座立法委員也不是大法官嘛對不對\n\n5\n00:01:51,380 --> 00:02:06,513\n那如果直接就喊說這個國情報告即問即答違憲,最後是要誰來決定有沒有違憲?宮委員報告如果說將來有憲法的這個訴算的話當然是由大法官。對啊,就是大法官說了算啊。\n\n6\n00:02:07,284 --> 00:02:31,278\n我再想請教次長,柯建民總召說國情報告疾問疾答,你覺得有違憲嗎?這個是他個人表達意見,我們憲刑法確實是沒有疾問疾答,剛才周民眾也提到說將來修法有立法形成的空間,那最終會不會違反憲法的憲政的原理等等這些的話,最終的話是一個大法官才有的宣告。好,非常謝謝。\n\n7\n00:02:32,379 --> 00:02:56,047\n所以這邊我先針對國情報告事實上國民黨版本叫做即時詢答啦那即時詢答其實有包括不同種模式即問即答是模式一疑問一答是模式二那至於統問統答是模式三所以換言之即時詢答也有不同的詢答模式這些事實上不只是可以透過立法形成\n\n8\n00:02:56,627 --> 00:02:56,767\n二）委員傅崐萁\n\n9\n00:03:18,992 --> 00:03:29,545\n這個部分也對不管是憲法法庭過去的釋憲案對此也並沒有做出一個判斷所以換言之這個部分我還是比較傾向認同剛剛我們周秘書長講的他應該是一個立法形成的一個權利所以讓立法院來進行決定\n\n10\n00:03:37,535 --> 00:03:37,775\n議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具\n\n11\n00:03:57,771 --> 00:04:21,360\n立法院的調查權是基於立法院的質詢權、議決權而生的。請問賴清德委員當時連署的法案的立法委員,我不知道秘書長您覺得2009年他這個說法有違憲問題嗎?沒有啊。沒有嗎?對,那我們的副秘書長覺得呢?一樣跟委員報告,因為我們是…也不是你決定,那次長您覺得呢?\n\n12\n00:04:22,725 --> 00:04:40,959\n五、八、五號解釋是有肯認立法院有調查權不過他的範圍還是在憲政的範圍之下來做處理對啊就基本上認為調查權是這個立法的固有權利嘛伴隨立法院的議案權跟質詢權事實上調查權是他固有權這也是我在引一個\n\n13\n00:04:41,779 --> 00:04:58,214\n我們非常尊敬的一個政界的一個前輩高雄市長陳其邁他也曾經公開主張當立法院失去了調查權他就是一個無牙的老虎事實上是侵犯今天憲政上立法院的該有的一個權利\n\n14\n00:04:59,315 --> 00:05:14,008\n所以因此在這邊其實當然立法院聽證調查該如何進行是讓全世界各國多有實力嘛能不能請我們的秘書長跟大家稍微介紹一下其他國家聽證調查大概的範例是範式是什麼\n\n15\n00:05:16,853 --> 00:05:39,202\n我們法治局有針對這個國會的這個聽證調查他是有做過研究啦大概有他的範圍上不完全是相同啦那因為我們有585號的解釋在裡面585號解釋裡面他就對於他的範圍上可能有做一些限制啦\n\n16\n00:05:39,842 --> 00:05:55,255\n所以我們委員裏面有很多版本也是有把他排除啦。比如像這個行政特權啦,等等。我基本人權大概都必須要稍微有點把他排除在外。\n\n17\n00:05:55,956 --> 00:06:02,520\n則在範圍裡面。至於這個聽證調查裡面的這個相關於這個範圍、界限甚至於這個有些比如像類似這個國會的藐視因為沒有國家是不會一樣的。所以我們在\n\n18\n00:06:17,348 --> 00:06:27,459\n法制局在做研究是提供給各位委員去參考各個國家制度上的設計那我們也做了一個很厚的一本這個聽證調查權的一個報告給各位委員參考\n\n19\n00:06:32,149 --> 00:06:47,395\n我非常謝謝周秘書長,實際上你那個報告我也看過了。以依照目前來看的話,全世界各國對於聽證調查的行使的方式跟範圍有寬有廣,規範的程序也未必完全一致。\n\n20\n00:06:48,035 --> 00:07:04,903\n但是很多主要的民主的國家基本上國會都是有聽證調查的所以這種情況之下這也是顯現我們今天立法院在這個民主國家的發展過程當中其實這個部分我認為是退步的是不夠進步的\n\n21\n00:07:06,084 --> 00:07:24,983\n那這次國會改革法案就是要能夠補充不管是我們4至5、8、5號講的我們立法職能的缺陷事實上也是要跟進全世界各個主要的民主國家所採取的聽證調查制度這樣的一個我這樣的一個認知我不知道秘書長認不認同\n\n22\n00:07:27,094 --> 00:07:47,727\n因為這個本來585號解釋以後就從我們當時這個職權行使法是在文件調閱在88年的時候是以3號、5號解釋做基礎的那585號解釋以後就不一樣了所以多數的委員對於這一個部分是需要填補的\n\n23\n00:07:48,968 --> 00:07:48,988\n委員楊瓔\n\n24\n00:08:08,590 --> 00:08:11,474\n議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n25\n00:08:25,191 --> 00:08:41,378\n民進黨在我們這次國民黨團提出的國會改革法案提出之前現在的民進黨的51位立法委員扣除14位新科37位就任立委裡面有31位高達84%過去都簽署過相關國會聽證調查的國會改革法案\n\n26\n00:08:48,621 --> 00:09:03,826\n那麼也就是說事實上以我們現在司法法制委員會民進黨的司法法制委員裡面柯建民、吳思瑤、鍾嘉斌、莊瑞雄、陳俊宇、沈發慧委員其中也只有\n\n27\n00:09:04,586 --> 00:09:32,592\n陳俊宇在過去我們有查到有關於國會改革的一些主張那當然國會改革聽證調查的內容要怎麼設計我覺得大家可以再去做法案的一個討論但是國會的聽證調查這是國會基本上不管是民主國家以及我們從我們本身的台灣民主發展都是一個必要的職能所以我也希望說能夠從這一點來跟大家提供一個參考\n\n28\n00:09:33,812 --> 00:09:33,972\n二）委員\n\n29\n00:09:50,264 --> 00:10:14,939\n有些是行政法裏面在處理有些是刑法那因為我剛報告解釋裏面它是有一點線索性所以在現在就變成每一個委員的提案版本有些是增加刑法所以我才報告裏會提到學者的主張都不一樣我在我們法治局請學者來不一樣所以我才說這是由立法政策的這個選擇是這樣\n\n30\n00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:35,833\n謝謝秘書長那事實上我也看過相關的報告啦基本上針對行政法、行使法在其他國家的立法例都有啦那當然一個輕一個重嘛那至於在我們接下來國會改革法案當中至少藐視國會該有相當的處罰或是妨礙聽證調查該有相當的處罰這一點不違憲吧至少處罰這件事情\n\n31\n00:10:43,055 --> 00:10:54,122\n主要是在五八合集是有有沒錯嘛那只是處罰的形式跟手段跟程度那可能有討論的空間那也很簡單就交給我們將來審議法案當中我們來討論什麼樣的處罰和比例性什麼樣的處罰比較可能是憲政稍所允許什麼樣的處罰按照世界各國例子來講比較能夠輔佐立法院的職能這個應該都可以透過立法形成的過程當中我們來進一步的來確認\n\n32\n00:11:12,995 --> 00:11:15,921\n那非常謝謝秘書長,以上感謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10235\t26465\t主席有請立法院司法院還有法務部好請秘書長次長附密碼上台各位好\n27907\t56033\t首先我想第一個就叫三位幫我們開示一下就是柯建民民進黨的總召曾經說過國情報告他主張急問急答請問一下秘書長你覺得有沒有違憲我上次有已經報告過吧因為這個本身就是我們立完這個行程因為\n57819\t83144\t國情報告到立法院來我們有決定權我上次也跟委員報告過吧那至於15條之事怎麼修當然我們有立法政策的形成嘛對所以這是立法政策形成的權利我們有選擇的處分對好就是剛剛秘書長講這個立法這個的形成的權利嘛那我想請教這個副秘書長你覺得柯建民說國情報告才急問急答你覺得違憲了嗎\n85044\t104428\t跟委員報告那就我們司法院憲法法庭到現在為止目前並沒有相關的這個解釋啦那司法院基本上我們是負責司法行政的並不適合就合不合憲部分就表示意見非常好那我想請教現在在座的有大法官在座嗎我們現在應該沒有大法官在座立法委員也不是大法官嘛對不對\n111380\t126513\t那如果直接就喊說這個國情報告即問即答違憲,最後是要誰來決定有沒有違憲?宮委員報告如果說將來有憲法的這個訴算的話當然是由大法官。對啊,就是大法官說了算啊。\n127284\t151278\t我再想請教次長,柯建民總召說國情報告疾問疾答,你覺得有違憲嗎?這個是他個人表達意見,我們憲刑法確實是沒有疾問疾答,剛才周民眾也提到說將來修法有立法形成的空間,那最終會不會違反憲法的憲政的原理等等這些的話,最終的話是一個大法官才有的宣告。好,非常謝謝。\n152379\t176047\t所以這邊我先針對國情報告事實上國民黨版本叫做即時詢答啦那即時詢答其實有包括不同種模式即問即答是模式一疑問一答是模式二那至於統問統答是模式三所以換言之即時詢答也有不同的詢答模式這些事實上不只是可以透過立法形成\n176627\t176767\t二）委員傅崐萁\n198992\t209545\t這個部分也對不管是憲法法庭過去的釋憲案對此也並沒有做出一個判斷所以換言之這個部分我還是比較傾向認同剛剛我們周秘書長講的他應該是一個立法形成的一個權利所以讓立法院來進行決定\n217535\t217775\t議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具\n237771\t261360\t立法院的調查權是基於立法院的質詢權、議決權而生的。請問賴清德委員當時連署的法案的立法委員,我不知道秘書長您覺得2009年他這個說法有違憲問題嗎?沒有啊。沒有嗎?對,那我們的副秘書長覺得呢?一樣跟委員報告,因為我們是…也不是你決定,那次長您覺得呢?\n262725\t280959\t五、八、五號解釋是有肯認立法院有調查權不過他的範圍還是在憲政的範圍之下來做處理對啊就基本上認為調查權是這個立法的固有權利嘛伴隨立法院的議案權跟質詢權事實上調查權是他固有權這也是我在引一個\n281779\t298214\t我們非常尊敬的一個政界的一個前輩高雄市長陳其邁他也曾經公開主張當立法院失去了調查權他就是一個無牙的老虎事實上是侵犯今天憲政上立法院的該有的一個權利\n299315\t314008\t所以因此在這邊其實當然立法院聽證調查該如何進行是讓全世界各國多有實力嘛能不能請我們的秘書長跟大家稍微介紹一下其他國家聽證調查大概的範例是 範式是什麼\n316853\t339202\t我們法治局有針對這個國會的這個聽證調查他是有做過研究啦大概有他的範圍上不完全是相同啦那因為我們有585號的解釋在裡面585號解釋裡面他就對於他的範圍上可能有做一些限制啦\n339842\t355255\t所以我們委員裏面有很多版本也是有把他排除啦。比如像這個行政特權啦,等等。我基本人權大概都必須要稍微有點把他排除在外。\n355956\t362520\t則在範圍裡面。至於這個聽證調查裡面的這個相關於這個範圍、界限甚至於這個有些比如像類似這個國會的藐視因為沒有國家是不會一樣的。所以我們在\n377348\t387459\t法制局在做研究是提供給各位委員去參考各個國家制度上的設計那我們也做了一個很厚的一本這個聽證調查權的一個報告給各位委員參考\n392149\t407395\t我非常謝謝周秘書長,實際上你那個報告我也看過了。以依照目前來看的話,全世界各國對於聽證調查的行使的方式跟範圍有寬有廣,規範的程序也未必完全一致。\n408035\t424903\t但是很多主要的民主的國家基本上國會都是有聽證調查的所以這種情況之下這也是顯現我們今天立法院在這個民主國家的發展過程當中其實這個部分我認為是退步的是不夠進步的\n426084\t444983\t那這次國會改革法案就是要能夠補充不管是我們4至5、8、5號講的我們立法職能的缺陷事實上也是要跟進全世界各個主要的民主國家所採取的聽證調查制度這樣的一個我這樣的一個認知我不知道秘書長認不認同\n447094\t467727\t因為這個本來585號解釋以後就從我們當時這個職權行使法是在文件調閱在88年的時候是以3號、5號解釋做基礎的那585號解釋以後就不一樣了所以多數的委員對於這一個部分是需要填補的\n468968\t468988\t委員楊瓔\n488590\t491474\t議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉案。\n505191\t521378\t民進黨在我們這次國民黨團提出的國會改革法案提出之前現在的民進黨的51位立法委員扣除14位新科37位就任立委裡面有31位高達84%過去都簽署過相關國會聽證調查的國會改革法案\n528621\t543826\t那麼也就是說事實上以我們現在司法法制委員會民進黨的司法法制委員裡面柯建民、吳思瑤、鍾嘉斌、莊瑞雄、陳俊宇、沈發慧委員其中也只有\n544586\t572592\t陳俊宇在過去我們有查到有關於國會改革的一些主張那當然國會改革聽證調查的內容要怎麼設計我覺得大家可以再去做法案的一個討論但是國會的聽證調查這是國會基本上不管是民主國家以及我們從我們本身的台灣民主發展都是一個必要的職能所以我也希望說能夠從這一點來跟大家提供一個參考\n573812\t573972\t二）委員\n590264\t614939\t有些是行政法裏面在處理 有些是刑法那因為我剛報告解釋裏面它是有一點線索性所以在現在就變成每一個委員的提案版本有些是增加刑法所以我才報告裏會提到學者的主張都不一樣我在我們法治局請學者來不一樣所以我才說這是由立法政策的這個選擇是這樣\n616960\t635833\t謝謝秘書長那事實上我也看過相關的報告啦基本上針對行政法、行使法在其他國家的立法例都有啦那當然一個輕一個重嘛那至於在我們接下來國會改革法案當中至少藐視國會該有相當的處罰或是妨礙聽證調查該有相當的處罰這一點不違憲吧至少處罰這件事情\n643055\t654122\t主要是在五八合集是有有沒錯嘛那只是處罰的形式跟手段跟程度那可能有討論的空間那也很簡單就交給我們將來審議法案當中我們來討論什麼樣的處罰和比例性什麼樣的處罰比較可能是憲政稍所允許什麼樣的處罰按照世界各國例子來講比較能夠輔佐立法院的職能這個應該都可以透過立法形成的過程當中我們來進一步的來確認\n672995\t675921\t那非常謝謝秘書長,以上感謝。\n","txt":"主席有請立法院司法院還有法務部好請秘書長次長附密碼上台各位好\n首先我想第一個就叫三位幫我們開示一下就是柯建民民進黨的總召曾經說過國情報告他主張急問急答請問一下秘書長你覺得有沒有違憲我上次有已經報告過吧因為這個本身就是我們立完這個行程因為\n國情報告到立法院來我們有決定權我上次也跟委員報告過吧那至於15條之事怎麼修當然我們有立法政策的形成嘛對所以這是立法政策形成的權利我們有選擇的處分對好就是剛剛秘書長講這個立法這個的形成的權利嘛那我想請教這個副秘書長你覺得柯建民說國情報告才急問急答你覺得違憲了嗎\n跟委員報告那就我們司法院憲法法庭到現在為止目前並沒有相關的這個解釋啦那司法院基本上我們是負責司法行政的並不適合就合不合憲部分就表示意見非常好那我想請教現在在座的有大法官在座嗎我們現在應該沒有大法官在座立法委員也不是大法官嘛對不對\n那如果直接就喊說這個國情報告即問即答違憲,最後是要誰來決定有沒有違憲?宮委員報告如果說將來有憲法的這個訴算的話當然是由大法官。對啊,就是大法官說了算啊。\n我再想請教次長,柯建民總召說國情報告疾問疾答,你覺得有違憲嗎?這個是他個人表達意見,我們憲刑法確實是沒有疾問疾答,剛才周民眾也提到說將來修法有立法形成的空間,那最終會不會違反憲法的憲政的原理等等這些的話,最終的話是一個大法官才有的宣告。好,非常謝謝。\n所以這邊我先針對國情報告事實上國民黨版本叫做即時詢答啦那即時詢答其實有包括不同種模式即問即答是模式一疑問一答是模式二那至於統問統答是模式三所以換言之即時詢答也有不同的詢答模式這些事實上不只是可以透過立法形成\n二）委員傅崐萁\n這個部分也對不管是憲法法庭過去的釋憲案對此也並沒有做出一個判斷所以換言之這個部分我還是比較傾向認同剛剛我們周秘書長講的他應該是一個立法形成的一個權利所以讓立法院來進行決定\n議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具\n立法院的調查權是基於立法院的質詢權、議決權而生的。請問賴清德委員當時連署的法案的立法委員,我不知道秘書長您覺得2009年他這個說法有違憲問題嗎?沒有啊。沒有嗎?對,那我們的副秘書長覺得呢?一樣跟委員報告,因為我們是…也不是你決定,那次長您覺得呢?\n五、八、五號解釋是有肯認立法院有調查權不過他的範圍還是在憲政的範圍之下來做處理對啊就基本上認為調查權是這個立法的固有權利嘛伴隨立法院的議案權跟質詢權事實上調查權是他固有權這也是我在引一個\n我們非常尊敬的一個政界的一個前輩高雄市長陳其邁他也曾經公開主張當立法院失去了調查權他就是一個無牙的老虎事實上是侵犯今天憲政上立法院的該有的一個權利\n所以因此在這邊其實當然立法院聽證調查該如何進行是讓全世界各國多有實力嘛能不能請我們的秘書長跟大家稍微介紹一下其他國家聽證調查大概的範例是 範式是什麼\n我們法治局有針對這個國會的這個聽證調查他是有做過研究啦大概有他的範圍上不完全是相同啦那因為我們有585號的解釋在裡面585號解釋裡面他就對於他的範圍上可能有做一些限制啦\n所以我們委員裏面有很多版本也是有把他排除啦。比如像這個行政特權啦,等等。我基本人權大概都必須要稍微有點把他排除在外。\n則在範圍裡面。至於這個聽證調查裡面的這個相關於這個範圍、界限甚至於這個有些比如像類似這個國會的藐視因為沒有國家是不會一樣的。所以我們在\n法制局在做研究是提供給各位委員去參考各個國家制度上的設計那我們也做了一個很厚的一本這個聽證調查權的一個報告給各位委員參考\n我非常謝謝周秘書長,實際上你那個報告我也看過了。以依照目前來看的話,全世界各國對於聽證調查的行使的方式跟範圍有寬有廣,規範的程序也未必完全一致。\n但是很多主要的民主的國家基本上國會都是有聽證調查的所以這種情況之下這也是顯現我們今天立法院在這個民主國家的發展過程當中其實這個部分我認為是退步的是不夠進步的\n那這次國會改革法案就是要能夠補充不管是我們4至5、8、5號講的我們立法職能的缺陷事實上也是要跟進全世界各個主要的民主國家所採取的聽證調查制度這樣的一個我這樣的一個認知我不知道秘書長認不認同\n因為這個本來585號解釋以後就從我們當時這個職權行使法是在文件調閱在88年的時候是以3號、5號解釋做基礎的那585號解釋以後就不一樣了所以多數的委員對於這一個部分是需要填補的\n委員楊瓔\n議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉案。\n民進黨在我們這次國民黨團提出的國會改革法案提出之前現在的民進黨的51位立法委員扣除14位新科37位就任立委裡面有31位高達84%過去都簽署過相關國會聽證調查的國會改革法案\n那麼也就是說事實上以我們現在司法法制委員會民進黨的司法法制委員裡面柯建民、吳思瑤、鍾嘉斌、莊瑞雄、陳俊宇、沈發慧委員其中也只有\n陳俊宇在過去我們有查到有關於國會改革的一些主張那當然國會改革聽證調查的內容要怎麼設計我覺得大家可以再去做法案的一個討論但是國會的聽證調查這是國會基本上不管是民主國家以及我們從我們本身的台灣民主發展都是一個必要的職能所以我也希望說能夠從這一點來跟大家提供一個參考\n二）委員\n有些是行政法裏面在處理 有些是刑法那因為我剛報告解釋裏面它是有一點線索性所以在現在就變成每一個委員的提案版本有些是增加刑法所以我才報告裏會提到學者的主張都不一樣我在我們法治局請學者來不一樣所以我才說這是由立法政策的這個選擇是這樣\n謝謝秘書長那事實上我也看過相關的報告啦基本上針對行政法、行使法在其他國家的立法例都有啦那當然一個輕一個重嘛那至於在我們接下來國會改革法案當中至少藐視國會該有相當的處罰或是妨礙聽證調查該有相當的處罰這一點不違憲吧至少處罰這件事情\n主要是在五八合集是有有沒錯嘛那只是處罰的形式跟手段跟程度那可能有討論的空間那也很簡單就交給我們將來審議法案當中我們來討論什麼樣的處罰和比例性什麼樣的處罰比較可能是憲政稍所允許什麼樣的處罰按照世界各國例子來講比較能夠輔佐立法院的職能這個應該都可以透過立法形成的過程當中我們來進一步的來確認\n那非常謝謝秘書長,以上感謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.235 --> 00:26.465\n主席有請立法院司法院還有法務部好請秘書長次長附密碼上台各位好\n\n00:27.907 --> 00:56.033\n首先我想第一個就叫三位幫我們開示一下就是柯建民民進黨的總召曾經說過國情報告他主張急問急答請問一下秘書長你覺得有沒有違憲我上次有已經報告過吧因為這個本身就是我們立完這個行程因為\n\n00:57.819 --> 01:23.144\n國情報告到立法院來我們有決定權我上次也跟委員報告過吧那至於15條之事怎麼修當然我們有立法政策的形成嘛對所以這是立法政策形成的權利我們有選擇的處分對好就是剛剛秘書長講這個立法這個的形成的權利嘛那我想請教這個副秘書長你覺得柯建民說國情報告才急問急答你覺得違憲了嗎\n\n01:25.044 --> 01:44.428\n跟委員報告那就我們司法院憲法法庭到現在為止目前並沒有相關的這個解釋啦那司法院基本上我們是負責司法行政的並不適合就合不合憲部分就表示意見非常好那我想請教現在在座的有大法官在座嗎我們現在應該沒有大法官在座立法委員也不是大法官嘛對不對\n\n01:51.380 --> 02:06.513\n那如果直接就喊說這個國情報告即問即答違憲,最後是要誰來決定有沒有違憲?宮委員報告如果說將來有憲法的這個訴算的話當然是由大法官。對啊,就是大法官說了算啊。\n\n02:07.284 --> 02:31.278\n我再想請教次長,柯建民總召說國情報告疾問疾答,你覺得有違憲嗎?這個是他個人表達意見,我們憲刑法確實是沒有疾問疾答,剛才周民眾也提到說將來修法有立法形成的空間,那最終會不會違反憲法的憲政的原理等等這些的話,最終的話是一個大法官才有的宣告。好,非常謝謝。\n\n02:32.379 --> 02:56.047\n所以這邊我先針對國情報告事實上國民黨版本叫做即時詢答啦那即時詢答其實有包括不同種模式即問即答是模式一疑問一答是模式二那至於統問統答是模式三所以換言之即時詢答也有不同的詢答模式這些事實上不只是可以透過立法形成\n\n02:56.627 --> 02:56.767\n二）委員傅崐萁\n\n03:18.992 --> 03:29.545\n這個部分也對不管是憲法法庭過去的釋憲案對此也並沒有做出一個判斷所以換言之這個部分我還是比較傾向認同剛剛我們周秘書長講的他應該是一個立法形成的一個權利所以讓立法院來進行決定\n\n03:37.535 --> 03:37.775\n議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具\n\n03:57.771 --> 04:21.360\n立法院的調查權是基於立法院的質詢權、議決權而生的。請問賴清德委員當時連署的法案的立法委員,我不知道秘書長您覺得2009年他這個說法有違憲問題嗎?沒有啊。沒有嗎?對,那我們的副秘書長覺得呢?一樣跟委員報告,因為我們是…也不是你決定,那次長您覺得呢?\n\n04:22.725 --> 04:40.959\n五、八、五號解釋是有肯認立法院有調查權不過他的範圍還是在憲政的範圍之下來做處理對啊就基本上認為調查權是這個立法的固有權利嘛伴隨立法院的議案權跟質詢權事實上調查權是他固有權這也是我在引一個\n\n04:41.779 --> 04:58.214\n我們非常尊敬的一個政界的一個前輩高雄市長陳其邁他也曾經公開主張當立法院失去了調查權他就是一個無牙的老虎事實上是侵犯今天憲政上立法院的該有的一個權利\n\n04:59.315 --> 05:14.008\n所以因此在這邊其實當然立法院聽證調查該如何進行是讓全世界各國多有實力嘛能不能請我們的秘書長跟大家稍微介紹一下其他國家聽證調查大概的範例是範式是什麼\n\n05:16.853 --> 05:39.202\n我們法治局有針對這個國會的這個聽證調查他是有做過研究啦大概有他的範圍上不完全是相同啦那因為我們有585號的解釋在裡面585號解釋裡面他就對於他的範圍上可能有做一些限制啦\n\n05:39.842 --> 05:55.255\n所以我們委員裏面有很多版本也是有把他排除啦。比如像這個行政特權啦,等等。我基本人權大概都必須要稍微有點把他排除在外。\n\n05:55.956 --> 06:02.520\n則在範圍裡面。至於這個聽證調查裡面的這個相關於這個範圍、界限甚至於這個有些比如像類似這個國會的藐視因為沒有國家是不會一樣的。所以我們在\n\n06:17.348 --> 06:27.459\n法制局在做研究是提供給各位委員去參考各個國家制度上的設計那我們也做了一個很厚的一本這個聽證調查權的一個報告給各位委員參考\n\n06:32.149 --> 06:47.395\n我非常謝謝周秘書長,實際上你那個報告我也看過了。以依照目前來看的話,全世界各國對於聽證調查的行使的方式跟範圍有寬有廣,規範的程序也未必完全一致。\n\n06:48.035 --> 07:04.903\n但是很多主要的民主的國家基本上國會都是有聽證調查的所以這種情況之下這也是顯現我們今天立法院在這個民主國家的發展過程當中其實這個部分我認為是退步的是不夠進步的\n\n07:06.084 --> 07:24.983\n那這次國會改革法案就是要能夠補充不管是我們4至5、8、5號講的我們立法職能的缺陷事實上也是要跟進全世界各個主要的民主國家所採取的聽證調查制度這樣的一個我這樣的一個認知我不知道秘書長認不認同\n\n07:27.094 --> 07:47.727\n因為這個本來585號解釋以後就從我們當時這個職權行使法是在文件調閱在88年的時候是以3號、5號解釋做基礎的那585號解釋以後就不一樣了所以多數的委員對於這一個部分是需要填補的\n\n07:48.968 --> 07:48.988\n委員楊瓔\n\n08:08.590 --> 08:11.474\n議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n08:25.191 --> 08:41.378\n民進黨在我們這次國民黨團提出的國會改革法案提出之前現在的民進黨的51位立法委員扣除14位新科37位就任立委裡面有31位高達84%過去都簽署過相關國會聽證調查的國會改革法案\n\n08:48.621 --> 09:03.826\n那麼也就是說事實上以我們現在司法法制委員會民進黨的司法法制委員裡面柯建民、吳思瑤、鍾嘉斌、莊瑞雄、陳俊宇、沈發慧委員其中也只有\n\n09:04.586 --> 09:32.592\n陳俊宇在過去我們有查到有關於國會改革的一些主張那當然國會改革聽證調查的內容要怎麼設計我覺得大家可以再去做法案的一個討論但是國會的聽證調查這是國會基本上不管是民主國家以及我們從我們本身的台灣民主發展都是一個必要的職能所以我也希望說能夠從這一點來跟大家提供一個參考\n\n09:33.812 --> 09:33.972\n二）委員\n\n09:50.264 --> 10:14.939\n有些是行政法裏面在處理有些是刑法那因為我剛報告解釋裏面它是有一點線索性所以在現在就變成每一個委員的提案版本有些是增加刑法所以我才報告裏會提到學者的主張都不一樣我在我們法治局請學者來不一樣所以我才說這是由立法政策的這個選擇是這樣\n\n10:16.960 --> 10:35.833\n謝謝秘書長那事實上我也看過相關的報告啦基本上針對行政法、行使法在其他國家的立法例都有啦那當然一個輕一個重嘛那至於在我們接下來國會改革法案當中至少藐視國會該有相當的處罰或是妨礙聽證調查該有相當的處罰這一點不違憲吧至少處罰這件事情\n\n10:43.055 --> 10:54.122\n主要是在五八合集是有有沒錯嘛那只是處罰的形式跟手段跟程度那可能有討論的空間那也很簡單就交給我們將來審議法案當中我們來討論什麼樣的處罰和比例性什麼樣的處罰比較可能是憲政稍所允許什麼樣的處罰按照世界各國例子來講比較能夠輔佐立法院的職能這個應該都可以透過立法形成的過程當中我們來進一步的來確認\n\n11:12.995 --> 11:15.921\n那非常謝謝秘書長,以上感謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.235,"end":26.465,"text":"主席有請立法院司法院還有法務部好請秘書長次長附密碼上台各位好"},{"start":27.907,"end":56.033,"text":"首先我想第一個就叫三位幫我們開示一下就是柯建民民進黨的總召曾經說過國情報告他主張急問急答請問一下秘書長你覺得有沒有違憲我上次有已經報告過吧因為這個本身就是我們立完這個行程因為"},{"start":57.819,"end":83.144,"text":"國情報告到立法院來我們有決定權我上次也跟委員報告過吧那至於15條之事怎麼修當然我們有立法政策的形成嘛對所以這是立法政策形成的權利我們有選擇的處分對好就是剛剛秘書長講這個立法這個的形成的權利嘛那我想請教這個副秘書長你覺得柯建民說國情報告才急問急答你覺得違憲了嗎"},{"start":85.044,"end":104.428,"text":"跟委員報告那就我們司法院憲法法庭到現在為止目前並沒有相關的這個解釋啦那司法院基本上我們是負責司法行政的並不適合就合不合憲部分就表示意見非常好那我想請教現在在座的有大法官在座嗎我們現在應該沒有大法官在座立法委員也不是大法官嘛對不對"},{"start":111.38,"end":126.513,"text":"那如果直接就喊說這個國情報告即問即答違憲,最後是要誰來決定有沒有違憲?宮委員報告如果說將來有憲法的這個訴算的話當然是由大法官。對啊,就是大法官說了算啊。"},{"start":127.284,"end":151.278,"text":"我再想請教次長,柯建民總召說國情報告疾問疾答,你覺得有違憲嗎?這個是他個人表達意見,我們憲刑法確實是沒有疾問疾答,剛才周民眾也提到說將來修法有立法形成的空間,那最終會不會違反憲法的憲政的原理等等這些的話,最終的話是一個大法官才有的宣告。好,非常謝謝。"},{"start":152.379,"end":176.047,"text":"所以這邊我先針對國情報告事實上國民黨版本叫做即時詢答啦那即時詢答其實有包括不同種模式即問即答是模式一疑問一答是模式二那至於統問統答是模式三所以換言之即時詢答也有不同的詢答模式這些事實上不只是可以透過立法形成"},{"start":176.627,"end":176.767,"text":"二）委員傅崐萁"},{"start":198.992,"end":209.545,"text":"這個部分也對不管是憲法法庭過去的釋憲案對此也並沒有做出一個判斷所以換言之這個部分我還是比較傾向認同剛剛我們周秘書長講的他應該是一個立法形成的一個權利所以讓立法院來進行決定"},{"start":217.535,"end":217.775,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具"},{"start":237.771,"end":261.36,"text":"立法院的調查權是基於立法院的質詢權、議決權而生的。請問賴清德委員當時連署的法案的立法委員,我不知道秘書長您覺得2009年他這個說法有違憲問題嗎?沒有啊。沒有嗎?對,那我們的副秘書長覺得呢?一樣跟委員報告,因為我們是…也不是你決定,那次長您覺得呢?"},{"start":262.725,"end":280.959,"text":"五、八、五號解釋是有肯認立法院有調查權不過他的範圍還是在憲政的範圍之下來做處理對啊就基本上認為調查權是這個立法的固有權利嘛伴隨立法院的議案權跟質詢權事實上調查權是他固有權這也是我在引一個"},{"start":281.779,"end":298.214,"text":"我們非常尊敬的一個政界的一個前輩高雄市長陳其邁他也曾經公開主張當立法院失去了調查權他就是一個無牙的老虎事實上是侵犯今天憲政上立法院的該有的一個權利"},{"start":299.315,"end":314.008,"text":"所以因此在這邊其實當然立法院聽證調查該如何進行是讓全世界各國多有實力嘛能不能請我們的秘書長跟大家稍微介紹一下其他國家聽證調查大概的範例是 範式是什麼"},{"start":316.853,"end":339.202,"text":"我們法治局有針對這個國會的這個聽證調查他是有做過研究啦大概有他的範圍上不完全是相同啦那因為我們有585號的解釋在裡面585號解釋裡面他就對於他的範圍上可能有做一些限制啦"},{"start":339.842,"end":355.255,"text":"所以我們委員裏面有很多版本也是有把他排除啦。比如像這個行政特權啦,等等。我基本人權大概都必須要稍微有點把他排除在外。"},{"start":355.956,"end":362.52,"text":"則在範圍裡面。至於這個聽證調查裡面的這個相關於這個範圍、界限甚至於這個有些比如像類似這個國會的藐視因為沒有國家是不會一樣的。所以我們在"},{"start":377.348,"end":387.459,"text":"法制局在做研究是提供給各位委員去參考各個國家制度上的設計那我們也做了一個很厚的一本這個聽證調查權的一個報告給各位委員參考"},{"start":392.149,"end":407.395,"text":"我非常謝謝周秘書長,實際上你那個報告我也看過了。以依照目前來看的話,全世界各國對於聽證調查的行使的方式跟範圍有寬有廣,規範的程序也未必完全一致。"},{"start":408.035,"end":424.903,"text":"但是很多主要的民主的國家基本上國會都是有聽證調查的所以這種情況之下這也是顯現我們今天立法院在這個民主國家的發展過程當中其實這個部分我認為是退步的是不夠進步的"},{"start":426.084,"end":444.983,"text":"那這次國會改革法案就是要能夠補充不管是我們4至5、8、5號講的我們立法職能的缺陷事實上也是要跟進全世界各個主要的民主國家所採取的聽證調查制度這樣的一個我這樣的一個認知我不知道秘書長認不認同"},{"start":447.094,"end":467.727,"text":"因為這個本來585號解釋以後就從我們當時這個職權行使法是在文件調閱在88年的時候是以3號、5號解釋做基礎的那585號解釋以後就不一樣了所以多數的委員對於這一個部分是需要填補的"},{"start":468.968,"end":468.988,"text":"委員楊瓔"},{"start":488.59,"end":491.474,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":505.191,"end":521.378,"text":"民進黨在我們這次國民黨團提出的國會改革法案提出之前現在的民進黨的51位立法委員扣除14位新科37位就任立委裡面有31位高達84%過去都簽署過相關國會聽證調查的國會改革法案"},{"start":528.621,"end":543.826,"text":"那麼也就是說事實上以我們現在司法法制委員會民進黨的司法法制委員裡面柯建民、吳思瑤、鍾嘉斌、莊瑞雄、陳俊宇、沈發慧委員其中也只有"},{"start":544.586,"end":572.592,"text":"陳俊宇在過去我們有查到有關於國會改革的一些主張那當然國會改革聽證調查的內容要怎麼設計我覺得大家可以再去做法案的一個討論但是國會的聽證調查這是國會基本上不管是民主國家以及我們從我們本身的台灣民主發展都是一個必要的職能所以我也希望說能夠從這一點來跟大家提供一個參考"},{"start":573.812,"end":573.972,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":590.264,"end":614.939,"text":"有些是行政法裏面在處理 有些是刑法那因為我剛報告解釋裏面它是有一點線索性所以在現在就變成每一個委員的提案版本有些是增加刑法所以我才報告裏會提到學者的主張都不一樣我在我們法治局請學者來不一樣所以我才說這是由立法政策的這個選擇是這樣"},{"start":616.96,"end":635.833,"text":"謝謝秘書長那事實上我也看過相關的報告啦基本上針對行政法、行使法在其他國家的立法例都有啦那當然一個輕一個重嘛那至於在我們接下來國會改革法案當中至少藐視國會該有相當的處罰或是妨礙聽證調查該有相當的處罰這一點不違憲吧至少處罰這件事情"},{"start":643.055,"end":654.122,"text":"主要是在五八合集是有有沒錯嘛那只是處罰的形式跟手段跟程度那可能有討論的空間那也很簡單就交給我們將來審議法案當中我們來討論什麼樣的處罰和比例性什麼樣的處罰比較可能是憲政稍所允許什麼樣的處罰按照世界各國例子來講比較能夠輔佐立法院的職能這個應該都可以透過立法形成的過程當中我們來進一步的來確認"},{"start":672.995,"end":675.921,"text":"那非常謝謝秘書長,以上感謝。"}]}}}}