{"id":150760,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150760","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c09cf678a0b190c54625a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a6da25f9f11a3780b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:14:57 - 11:34:08","影片長度":"00:19:11","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":1151,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:34:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:14:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":833,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時15分）主席、各位大家午安，請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，說起來你的部下對立法院來講，其實是很敷衍了事，你自己看，3月4號你們來這裡做食安五環執行狀況和蘇丹紅處理事件的檢討報告，這個是今天的檢討報告，你們的結語除了主詞第一句不同，然後每一字、每一句統統都一樣，結語統統都一樣，結語就是說，我們都已經採取精進措施，強化風險預警功能，而且及早發現，未來將於第一時間阻斷非法產品於境外等等，都講得一模一樣，3月4號跟4月1號寫得都一模一樣的結論，那我們就看你到底有沒有採取精進的措施。","你們在討論光是寶林茶室，我上次、上個禮拜在這裡質詢就跟你講兩點而已，第一個是通報的問題，第二個是對於產品責任險沒有落實，而且沒有稽核、沒有監督的這個問題，就這兩點，你們在這個裡面，食藥署提出來的報告有關食品中毒通報，你們不覺得你們有問題，然後對於投保產品責任險的問題，你說我們有法律了，你就寫這樣子叫做有精進嗎？徒法不足以自行啦！有法律規定在那裡，但是你要怎麼做，你有做嗎？這才是真正的問題啊！","部長，現在我們在講的是，如果因應非典型新型態，而且是非社區型餐飲場所的食品中毒案例，我上次就教於你說，如果沒有新聞露出，大家看到新聞報導才覺得要溯源，然後大家集體去通報，才會有這個案例，如果從3月24日的第一例死亡通報，324、325到326，3月26日新聞露出之後才有大量通報，我跟你說，很冤枉！如果不是因為新聞露出，你去看病，醫生有可能誤判以外，也有可能是說，這是我個人健康管理不良，或是我自己吃壞肚子而已，所以這個通報很重要。","上個禮拜你跟我講說，食品中毒必須兩人或兩人以上攝取相同的食品發生相似的症狀。但是事實上，你們食藥署在規定、你們衛福部在規定所謂的食品中毒還有後半段，後半段是因為攝食食品造成急性的食品中毒，不管它是化學的或者是天然的毒素中毒，即便只有1個人，也視為1件食品中毒事件。","但通報是一回事，這種非社區型餐飲場所的食品中毒，通報恐怕沒有辦法更多人知道這個訊息進來，所以整個制度面要怎麼樣讓未來每一個在這種非社區型的、非典型的食品中毒裡面受害了或者有症狀了可以通報以外，還可以連結在一起，找出正確的對症然後治療，這很重要啊！可是你們根本沒有精進的作業，你們沒有精進的措施，你們說你們精進，怎麼都沒有啊！對整個制度，我上個禮拜就問你們有沒有可以再檢討的地方，難道一點問題都沒有嗎？看你們今天的報告是你們不覺得有問題，你們也不覺得制度有問題、也沒有覺得執行面有問題，你們的結語寫得跟3月4號的報告一模一樣，這不是在唬弄立法院嗎？難怪人家要講藐視國會啊！部長，你也說兩句話！"],["薛部長瑞元：這沒什麼藐視國會啦！事實上是要……"],["林委員淑芬：你就虛與委蛇啊！怎麼會沒有藐視？隨便講一講啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：這要有一個時間、一個機制來做處理啦！因為這種非常專業的……"],["林委員淑芬：你這樣講我就聽得下去了，要有一個機制來處理、要有時間，但是你的報告完全不認為有問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們還是需要再建立一個補充的機制。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！要建立一個補充的機制。"],["薛部長瑞元：比方說，雖然個案數少但是嚴重度高的這種通報的話，也許後面的處理方式會不一樣。"],["林委員淑芬：通報還不是這樣，3月23日給你們通報，大家都沒有來通報，因為新聞沒有露出嘛！是後來3月26日1死1重症露出以後，大家才瞬間湧入。"],["薛部長瑞元：老實講，那個也是有媒體效應的問題。因為一個案子進來的時候，其他醫院並不知道，所以我們未來要去處理這個部分。如果有嚴重的像是死亡的個案，怎麼樣讓醫院知道類似的案例要進來。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！連制度面都有值得檢討的地方。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，像這個就需要檢討啦！"],["林委員淑芬：可是你們食藥署寫的這個報告能看嗎？我們現在說要成功的預判，所以你們的結論說有更精進的政策、要發揮成功的預判，這些都是說假的，它哪有成功預判過？連使用的既有系統及制度都發生問題，也不承認問題。我現在再問你，部長，未來的米酵菌酸是不是要列入食品的常規檢驗？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個還是要看這次的調查結果如何，老實講，它是如何發生的到目前為止也還不知道。"],["林委員淑芬：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以你要去說……"],["林委員淑芬：但我們知道如果有米酵菌酸的個案發生，一定都是非常重大的傷亡、重症或死亡，很嚴重。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，現在到底是在操作的哪一個環節產生米酵菌酸，這是我們目前調查的重點。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！等調查出來之後，再來看要不要列入常規的檢驗項目。"],["薛部長瑞元：有可能調查得出來、也有可能到後來沒有結論。"],["林委員淑芬：如果沒有結論，這個東西是否要列入常規的檢驗？"],["薛部長瑞元：這樣事情就比較大條了！你要如何做常規檢驗……"],["林委員淑芬：你回去之後好好想一下啦！但我今天還是要講，徒法不足以自行，所謂的業者自律，但我們看到的是屢屢破功，根本不可行，絕對不能只仰賴業者自律，你不能讓民眾都是賭自己的生命在外面吃飯啊！你知道現在在家自己煮飯的比例有多低嗎？都是外食，大家去吃飯要用生命賭運氣，這是不行的！我們要求至少要確認食安法第十三條第一項的規定，應投保產品責任險的包括食品製造業、輸入業及餐飲業者，通通要投保產品責任險。但是，我們看到機車強制險有一千三百多萬輛機車耶！只要沒有投保，馬上就勾稽出來，告訴你沒有投保要被開罰了，趕快去加保。食品製造業總共有幾家啊？就算是43萬、45萬、甚至是100萬，包括餐飲業者加起來一百多萬……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，現在是公司登記、商業登記及工廠……"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係！我現在告訴你，食品製造輸入經營就算是有100萬家，但是汽車加保強制險有1,300萬輛車子，它都可以管理了，現在就AI大數據而言，你們說沒辦法勾稽管理，我覺得這個真的是不對的！"],["薛部長瑞元：這個可以做。"],["林委員淑芬：你想看看，這次寶林茶室沒有投保責任險，如果沒有大時代、如果沒有大遠百，這次的傷亡重症根本沒有辦法被接住，怎麼可以不被接住？不能用生命賭運氣，萬一不幸遇到了又沒保險，該怎麼辦？絕對要每一時、每一刻通通都是在有責任險的狀態中。","我現在問你，這是我們請食藥署提供的資料，從2019年到2023年的五年來，各個縣市沒有投保產品責任險而遭開罰的件數，我不知道食藥署提供這五年來的數字是否正確，如果它對我們虛與委蛇、胡亂講講，我也沒辦法啦！不在上面的是0，沒有開罰的紀錄。全部一共是162件，光是臺南市政府就佔了九成以上，至於其他各縣市，我現在要問的是沒在查或是查不到？大家都這麼好、這麼守規矩？大家都有投保產品責任險？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分是地方提供資料給我們的。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要問署長，你覺得這個數字反映的是什麼意思？什麼意義？反映了什麼？"],["吳署長秀梅：報告委員，因為這條規定是可以讓業者限改，如果去查的時候發現它沒有投保，地方政府會要求它在限期內……"],["林委員淑芬：你看，這麼好！都沒有投保，一年沒保、二年沒保，查到就要求它限期改善，趕快去投保，如此而已，不會開罰，大家當然敢不投保。開罰金額從3萬至300萬，最低開罰從3萬起跳，我們都知道，因為可以限期改善，所以都沒有開罰，數字就是這個意思。我們在法律上雖然有規定，但是在執行面，大家都是輕輕放下，只要它趕快去投保即可，依照署長的講法就是如此。我們現在就問，中央主管機關除了督導地方縣市政府稽查之外、人力配置之外，還要落實法規的規定，不然都可以限期改善，大家可以一年、二年沒有保險，不但錢可以省下來，即使抓到也不會被處罰，這樣對嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好啦！這個部分我們會再精進。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！這樣就不對、這樣就不行啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：包括未投保超過多久，也許就不給它……"],["林委員淑芬：未投保超過二天、一天，可以給它一個限期改善的機會，但是未投保一個月、二個月、三個月、一年、二年、三年，處分會一樣嗎？對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！"],["林委員淑芬：所以有沒有需要精進的管理政策？有啊！你們這份報告裡面有寫嗎？沒有！還要立委在此質詢，你們才要講。現在我還懷疑，案件這麼少是地方政府沒在查嗎？還是中央政府沒有與地方政府聯繫？因為沒有與地方政府聯繫，所以不知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個應該就是有去查的啦！"],["林委員淑芬：不是，地方政府看起來有去查，0件、0件、0件、1件，很多縣市政府是0件喔！通通都合格喔！這是地方政府沒在查，或是中央政府沒與地方政府聯繫？"],["薛部長瑞元：有啦！"],["林委員淑芬：你看臺北市，112年2件、111年1件、109年1件，但是我自己Google去查，臺北市政府查到的好像不是這樣。你再看，臺南市政府有很多、高雄市政府全部都是0，沒有查到，到底是沒有查到或沒有在查，我就不知道了。還是中央政府與地方政府沒有聯繫，提供給立委的數字是不真實的？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為稽查的家數與合格的家數，這個資料我們都有，事實上，呈現出來的不合格家數應該是沒有問題。"],["林委員淑芬：照你這樣講，你們取得的數據與地方政府是一樣的、而且是真實的，證明全臺灣所有的食品製造業、所有的餐飲業者都有投保產品責任險，完全都沒有問題喔！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們得到的資訊是這樣沒有錯。"],["林委員淑芬：如果是這樣，臺北市112年的其中1件應該就是寶林茶室，我是有點懷疑！","我再問你，部長，我們現在看到臺北市政府針對轄區內37家百貨公司及大賣場的美食街進行稽查，目前只有臺北市在進行稽查，或是各地方政府都在進行？"],["薛部長瑞元：據我們所知，目前是臺北市比較積極在做啦！"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼不利用這個經驗、根據這個經驗，要求全國全面性清查一遍？各縣市通通都有百貨公司，況且百貨公司的風險都一樣嗎？剛剛我看到新聞說桃園只查異國料理，只有異國料理有問題嗎？我覺得這樣講是不是有一點怪怪的？我一直講徒法不足以自行，你們今天講了三大主題的檢討及策進行為，光就蘇丹紅事件而言，我們來看一下，查到登錄不實，你們的檢討報告及因應對策很多，但是講來講去就是沒有對自己的檢討，你們都只有對業者的檢討，對自己的檢討就是你們的食安五環、你們的溯源追蹤系統中店家登載不實或是應登而未登，你們都沒管啊！你們的報告也沒寫你們都沒管要如何處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：有啦！這個部分……"],["林委員淑芬：怎麼有？"],["薛部長瑞元：有啦！未來對於這些邊境管理的部分……"],["林委員淑芬：我覺得你在衛環委員會對立法院很不尊重耶！我在質詢時就告訴你了，現在被禁的21家中國辣椒粉產品輸入廠商，其中的Kavin Ship是船務公司，根本不是食品公司，你們現在還繼續給我們這種假的、你們還把業者說是來自於Kavin Ship這種假貨源的事寫在這裡向我們報告，說這間公司被我們禁掉了，但這間不是食品製造輸出商、這間是船務公司啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們已經禁了輸入商，在國外的輸入商。"],["林委員淑芬：你今天在立法院向我們報告的，還說把船務公司禁掉了。"],["薛部長瑞元：不是、不是，船務公司……"],["林委員淑芬：你們自己寫的，製造商有一家叫做Kavin Shipping，在第13頁？"],["薛部長瑞元：那個是出口……"],["林委員淑芬：你連這個都不願意更改！你提供給立委的資料還是這樣一字不改！"],["薛部長瑞元：它上面的登記就是這間嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：那就是假的啊！大家都告訴你，這家就是假的啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：但是……"],["林委員淑芬：現在你又到立法院告訴我們立委，這間被你們禁掉了。"],["薛部長瑞元：進來的那家輸入商已經被禁掉了。"],["林委員淑芬：我問你，對於登錄不實的你們平時要如何稽核？不要等到出事再來抓，你要發揮預警預判的功能。監察院說了，第一個，應登入的廠商就已經夠少了，四十幾萬家廠商只登錄了一萬家，在登錄這麼少的量裡面還胡說八道、亂填亂登，你們也沒有進行稽核，這樣要怎麼處理？這個才叫應檢討和策進的作為是什麼，你都沒有寫，食藥署到現在還用這種不實的數據來唬弄全立法院的立委。"],["薛部長瑞元：數據沒有不實啦！"],["林委員淑芬：有啊！Kavin Shipping就不是廠商、就不是食品輸出廠商啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：但是系統上登錄的就是這個名稱啊！"],["林委員淑芬：你現在真的是睜著眼說瞎話，指鹿為馬！你說業者告訴你們的就是這家，但是你們應該要去調查業者真正的廠商再寫上去，人家告訴你這家就不是廠商、不是食品業者。"],["薛部長瑞元：當時在系統裡面輸入製造……"],["林委員淑芬：我問你，追溯追蹤系統亂登、登載不實，除了發生重大事件被你們查出來，還不是你們查出來的，而是我們立委幫你查的啦！被立委查出來了，你們才要處罰、你們才要重懲，回頭去看它登錄不實予以嚴懲之外，像海順你們就沒有處分了，但它也是登錄不實啊！平常對於登錄不實的，你要怎麼勾稽？你要怎麼稽核？"],["薛部長瑞元：海順有……"],["林委員淑芬：你不要說等到出問題之後再給予重懲，對於沒出問題的要如何處分、如何處理、如何精進檢討？"],["主席：林委員，因為時間的關係，請衛福部針對委員提出來的……"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！他都沒有講啊！從發生到現在都沒有任何的檢討、也沒有精進的作為，現在他的精進作為都是管理業者如何如何，卻都沒說自己未來要做什麼。你讓食安五環破功、讓溯源追蹤系統制度徒法不足以自行，你以為建立登錄制度就沒有食安問題了嗎？業者胡亂登錄，你都沒管理、也沒稽核，這個問題要如何解決啊？你要講啊？"],["主席：衛福部要提出檢討報告，針對林委員的部分……"],["林委員淑芬：要講啊！不要這樣捱到520，大家都要下台了，所以忍一下就算了吧！"],["薛部長瑞元：不會啦！"],["林委員淑芬：看起來好像是這樣，署長好像就是這樣，520過了之後就沒事、沒她的事啦！"],["主席：謝謝林委員，請衛福部針對林委員剛剛提出來的部分再提出檢討報告，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請盧縣一委員進行質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"150760","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150760","tool":"pyannote","id":"150760-pyannote"},"job_id":"11Rbe8FM1hXyB2Bu","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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\"這應該就是有去查的啦不是啦地方政府看起來有去查零件、零件、零件、零件、一件那其他沒有的很多縣市政府是零件喔通通都合格喔這是地方政府沒在查還是中央政府沒在跟地方政府聯繫你看這個台北市台北市一共112年兩件121年一件\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 707.885, \"end\": 708.085, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 708.085, \"end\": 708.405, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 708.405, \"end\": 708.745, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 708.745, \"end\": 709.065, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 709.065, \"end\": 709.386, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 709.386, \"end\": 709.406, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 709.406, \"end\": 709.826, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 709.826, \"end\": 709.926, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 709.926, \"end\": 710.126, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 710.126, \"end\": 710.686, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 710.686, \"end\": 710.867, \"score\": 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\"109年一件但是我自己去Google台北市政府查到的好像不是這樣你看台南市政府很多你看高雄全部是零沒有查到是沒有查到還是沒有再查我就不知道還是說中央政府跟地方政府沒有再聯繫提供給立委的數字是不真實的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 736.542, \"end\": 736.722, \"score\": 0.694}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 736.722, \"end\": 736.902, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 736.902, \"end\": 738.363, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 738.363, \"end\": 738.523, \"score\": 0.652}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 738.523, \"end\": 738.643, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 738.643, \"end\": 738.843, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 738.843, \"end\": 738.963, \"score\": 0.467}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 738.963, \"end\": 739.163, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 739.163, \"end\": 739.323, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"G\", \"start\": 739.323, \"end\": 739.343, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"o\", \"start\": 739.343, \"end\": 739.464, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"o\", \"start\": 739.464, \"end\": 739.484, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"g\", \"start\": 739.484, \"end\": 739.504, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"l\", \"start\": 739.504, \"end\": 739.524, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"e\", \"start\": 739.524, \"end\": 740.064, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 740.064, \"end\": 740.184, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"北\", \"start\": 740.184, \"end\": 740.324, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 740.324, \"end\": 740.484, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 740.484, \"end\": 740.664, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 740.664, \"end\": 740.904, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 740.904, \"end\": 741.104, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 741.104, \"end\": 741.204, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 741.204, \"end\": 741.344, \"score\": 0.599}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 741.344, \"end\": 741.444, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"繫\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 754.15, \"end\": 754.33, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 754.33, \"end\": 754.59, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 754.59, \"end\": 754.75, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 754.75, \"end\": 754.87, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 754.87, \"end\": 755.19, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"字\", \"start\": 755.19, \"end\": 755.37, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 755.37, \"end\": 755.911, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 755.911, \"end\": 756.011, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 756.011, \"end\": 756.151, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 756.151, \"end\": 756.171, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 757.806, \"end\": 785.293, \"text\": \"因為這個稽查的加次跟合格的加次這個我們資料都有所以事實上所呈現出來的這個不合格的加次應該是沒有問題來教你這樣講地方政府你們跟他取得的數據是一樣的而且是真實的證明全台灣所有的食品製造業所有的餐飲業者都有投保這個責任銜產品責任銜完全都沒有問題囉\", \"words\": 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1122.966, \"end\": 1123.106, \"score\": 0.696}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1123.106, \"end\": 1123.126, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 1123.126, \"end\": 1123.206, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1123.206, \"end\": 1123.246, \"score\": 0.202}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 1123.246, \"end\": 1123.386, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 1123.386, \"end\": 1123.406, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 1123.406, \"end\": 1123.426, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:13,265\n各位大家午安了是不是來請我們薛部長好請薛部長\n\n2\n00:00:18,424 --> 00:00:25,668\n委員長對立法院來講其實是很敷衍了事你再看看3月7號3月7號你們來這裡做這個也是3、5環3月4號3、5環執行狀況和蘇丹紅處理事件的檢討報告這個是今天的檢討報告你們的結語除了主持第一句不同然後每一次每一句通通都一樣結語通通都一樣\n\n3\n00:00:45,820 --> 00:00:53,231\n結語就是說我們都已經採取了精進措施了而且強化了風險預警的功能了而且及早發現未來將於第一時間阻斷問題產品於境外等等啊都講的一模一樣3月4號跟4月1號寫的都一模一樣的結論啊\n\n4\n00:01:00,903 --> 00:01:29,240\n那我們就看你到底有沒有採取精進的這個措施啦你們在討論光是寶林茶室啊我上次在上個禮拜在這裡質詢就跟你講兩點而已第一個是通報的問題第二個是對於產品責任險沒有落實而且沒有集合沒有監督的這個問題就這兩點你們在這個裡面食藥署提出來的報告食品中毒通報你們不覺得你們有問題然後對於這個投保產品責任險的問題你說我們有法律了\n\n5\n00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:31,602\n現在我們在講的是說如果因應非典型新型態而且是非社區型的餐飲場所的這個食品中毒案例那你上次說我上次就教於你說\n\n6\n00:01:54,344 --> 00:01:58,907\n大家若是沒有新聞露出大家看到新聞報導才覺得要溯源然後大家集體去這個通報才有這麼的案例如果從3月24的第一例死亡通報324、325到326\n\n7\n00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:28,353\n3月26日新聞露出才有之後才有大量通報那我要說很多話你若不是因為新聞露出你去看病醫生有可能誤判以外也有可能是說這是我個人健康管理不良或是我自己吃壞肚子這樣而已\n\n8\n00:02:30,635 --> 00:02:48,569\n所以這個通報很重要那你上個禮拜你跟我講說這個食品中毒也必須要兩人或兩人以上攝取相同的食品而發生相似的症狀嗎但是事實上你們食藥署在規定你們衛福部在規定所謂的食品中毒還有後半段\n\n9\n00:02:49,269 --> 00:03:09,604\n後半段是因為涉食食品造成極性的食品中毒不管它是化學的或是天然的毒素中毒即便只有一個人也視為一件食品中毒事件但通報通報是一回事啊那這種非社區型的餐飲場所的食品中毒通報恐怕沒有辦法更多人知道這個訊息進來\n\n10\n00:03:11,025 --> 00:03:36,742\n所以整個制度面要怎麼樣讓未來每一個在這種非社區型的非典型的食品中毒裡面如果受害了或者是有症狀了可以在大家在通報以外還可以連結在一起找出正確的對症然後治療這很重要啊可是你們根本沒有精進的作業你們還沒有精進的措施你們說你們精進你怎麼都沒都沒有啊\n\n11\n00:03:39,864 --> 00:03:54,971\n對於整個制度我上禮拜就跟你們說有沒有可以再檢討的地方難道一點問題都沒有嗎?看你們今天的報告是你們不覺得有問題你們也不覺得制度有問題也沒有覺得執行面有問題你們還節於寫的跟3月4號的報告一模一樣這不是在呼嚨立法院嗎?難怪人家講藐視國會啊\n\n12\n00:04:03,285 --> 00:04:04,045\n我們還是需要再建立一個補充的機制\n\n13\n00:04:30,957 --> 00:04:56,716\n對啦,要建立一個補充的機制雖然個案數少,但是嚴重度高的那這一種的通報的話也許後面的處理方式會不一樣通報還不是這樣,3月23給你們通報通報跟大家,大家都沒有來通報因為新聞沒有露出嘛我們是後來3月26一死一重症露出以後大家才瞬間湧入\n\n14\n00:04:58,657 --> 00:05:17,224\n那個是老實講也有媒體的效應的問題但是我們現在要去處理就是因為一個案子進來的時候其他醫院並不知道所以未來這個部分都要去做處理如果說他有嚴重的比方說死亡的個案的時候怎麼樣\n\n15\n00:05:18,644 --> 00:05:28,267\n就讓醫院知道說,類似的．對啊,所以製度面,連製度面都有檢討,值得檢討的地方啊可是你們食藥署,寫的這個報告能看嗎?那我們現在講說,成功的預判,你們的結論講我們更精進的政策,我們要發揮成功的預判這都說過了,他怎麼有成功預判過?\n\n16\n00:05:40,092 --> 00:05:49,871\n連使用的既有的系統和制度都發生問題然後也不承認問題那我現在在問你保定未來的米酵菌酸是不是會列入食品的常規檢驗裡面\n\n17\n00:05:52,490 --> 00:06:09,424\n這個還是要再看我們這一次調查的結果是怎樣因為老實講它怎麼樣發生的到目前你還不知道所以你要去說但我們知道如果也有個案的話米肖峻山的個案的話都是非常重大的傷亡重症或死亡很嚴重\n\n18\n00:06:10,505 --> 00:06:25,052\n所以到底現在如果是在操作的哪一個環節才會進行米蝦菌栓這目前是我們在調查的一個重點啦好啦單調張出來現在看說要不要列入常規的檢驗項目啦\n\n19\n00:06:26,533 --> 00:06:27,593\n你回去好好想一下啦但我今天還是要講土法不足以自刑\n\n20\n00:06:42,778 --> 00:07:07,863\n這個業者自律我們都看到屢屢破功而且不可行而且絕對不能只仰賴業者自律你不能讓民眾去吃飯都是用生命在拔在拔、在堵啊堵生命在吃飯啊你知道現在在家自己煮飯的比例有多低嗎都是外食大家用生命去吃飯要堵堵這個運氣這是不行的讓我們要求說那至少大家都會確認說食安法第13條第1項裡面要公告的就應投\n\n21\n00:07:11,264 --> 00:07:19,210\n食品責任險現在就食品製造業然後輸出輸入業還有餐飲業者通通要產品責任險嘛可是呢我們看到沒有機車強制險人家有1300多萬輛機車欸只要沒有投保馬上勾起出來告訴你你沒有投保我要開罰了你趕快去加保食品業食品製造業都中了多少金啊給你43萬45萬\n\n22\n00:07:40,686 --> 00:07:44,470\n我現在告訴你沒關係食品製造輸入經營一百萬一百萬啦汽車要強制顯示一千三百萬輛的車子他都可以管理了\n\n23\n00:08:03,067 --> 00:08:05,610\n這次的寶林茶室他沒有投保責任權如果沒有大時代如果沒有大原百\n\n24\n00:08:20,288 --> 00:08:39,775\n事實上這些傷亡其實是重症的是沒有辦法接住他們了所以怎麼可以怎麼可以不被接住不可以用死命打暈了但我比較慢的打到還沒保險怎麼辦絕對要每一個每一時每一刻通通都是在有責任險的狀態裡面那我現在問你這個我們請食藥署提供的啦\n\n25\n00:08:45,537 --> 00:08:59,426\n請食藥署提供這五年裡面2019到2023年各個縣市沒有投保產品責任權開罰的件數這五年裡面你們食藥署提供的數字有沒有辦法放大\n\n26\n00:09:01,659 --> 00:09:27,991\n這五年裡面,食藥署提供的,我不曉得正不正確,如果他對我們虛偽偽、亂說話,我也沒辦法啦。這個不在上面的是沒有零,是零,沒有開罰的紀錄。這個裡面一共全部162件,光是台南市政府就佔了九成以上。其他各縣市,我現在要問的是,是沒有在查還是查不到?\n\n27\n00:09:29,633 --> 00:09:30,094\n你覺得這個數字反映是什麼意思?反映了什麼?\n\n28\n00:09:48,566 --> 00:09:59,194\n報告委員因為我們這一條的規定業者他其實也可以限改所以如果去查的時候看他沒有保那地方政府會要求他你看很好你看我們都沒報一年沒報兩年沒報查到叫你馬上限期改善經濟保險而已未開罰大家也敢沒報開罰對3萬到3百萬大家最低開罰3萬7條我們都知道\n\n29\n00:10:17,148 --> 00:10:32,063\n所以你這樣子還可以限期改善所以都沒有開罰數字就是這個意思我們在法律上雖然有規定但在執行面大家都輕輕放下叫他趕快去保險就好了照署長的講法\n\n30\n00:10:36,877 --> 00:10:51,262\n我們現在問說中央主管機關你要督導地方縣政府稽查以外、人力配置以外、中央法規要落實法規的這個規定啊阿拉伯都可以限期改善大家可以一年、兩年沒保險錢蓋起來捏到還不會出發這樣對不對\n\n31\n00:10:57,261 --> 00:10:58,502\n衛生福利部長：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利部長．\n\n32\n00:11:27,621 --> 00:11:35,369\n你們這份報告裡面有寫嗎?沒有!立法院大致跟你們解釋,你們才要說我現在還懷疑這裡的案件,看得出是中央政府沒在查嗎?還是中央政府沒在跟中央政府聯繫?跟地方政府聯繫,所以沒有聯繫,所以不知道\n\n33\n00:11:47,885 --> 00:12:12,480\n這應該就是有去查的啦不是啦地方政府看起來有去查零件、零件、零件、零件、一件那其他沒有的很多縣市政府是零件喔通通都合格喔這是地方政府沒在查還是中央政府沒在跟地方政府聯繫你看這個台北市台北市一共112年兩件121年一件\n\n34\n00:12:16,542 --> 00:12:36,171\n109年一件但是我自己去Google台北市政府查到的好像不是這樣你看台南市政府很多你看高雄全部是零沒有查到是沒有查到還是沒有再查我就不知道還是說中央政府跟地方政府沒有再聯繫提供給立委的數字是不真實的\n\n35\n00:12:37,806 --> 00:13:05,293\n因為這個稽查的加次跟合格的加次這個我們資料都有所以事實上所呈現出來的這個不合格的加次應該是沒有問題來教你這樣講地方政府你們跟他取得的數據是一樣的而且是真實的證明全台灣所有的食品製造業所有的餐飲業者都有投保這個責任銜產品責任銜完全都沒有問題囉\n\n36\n00:13:07,013 --> 00:13:19,279\n如果照那樣子的話一百...如果這樣子台北市的一百一十二年的應該就不會有寶林茶室了或是應該就一件是寶林茶室了\n\n37\n00:13:20,909 --> 00:13:40,547\n這個我是有點懷疑啦,好沒關係,我再問問你喔,保證,我們現在看到說臺北市政府就針對轄區內37家保護公司跟大賣場、美食街稽查,然後查核這個風險啦齁,那各縣市的稽查是只有臺北市在進行,還是各地方政府都在進行?\n\n38\n00:13:41,823 --> 00:14:02,073\n目前我們知道是臺北市比較積極在做阿那為什麼不要利用這個經驗以這個經驗要求全國全面性的清除了查一遍百貨公司各縣市東東都有百貨公司的風險都一樣嗎阿現在我看到剛剛看到新聞桃園只查異國料理只有異國料理有問題嗎我覺得這樣子講是不是也\n\n39\n00:14:06,195 --> 00:14:14,805\n也有一點點怪怪的那我現在在跟你講這個我一直講土法不足以自行你們今天講這麼三大主題的檢討和策進行為光是蘇丹紅好了蘇丹紅事件\n\n40\n00:14:21,873 --> 00:14:49,779\n蘇丹紅事件我們來看一下查到登錄不實因為你們的檢討報告還有因應的對策很多但是說來說去就是沒有對自己的檢討你們都只有對業者的檢討對自己的檢討就是你們的食安五環你們的溯源追蹤系統人家登載不實或是要應登而未登你們都沒有在管\n\n41\n00:14:51,019 --> 00:15:05,112\n您的報告也沒寫,您都沒在管要怎麼處理?有啦,這個報分有啦,未來對於這些邊境的管理的不尊重沒有啦,我覺得你對這個委員會對立法院很不尊重耶\n\n42\n00:15:06,175 --> 00:15:22,846\n我在質詢的時候就跟你講了你們現在被禁的21家的中國中國這個辣椒粉產品輸入的廠商我們講過KevinShipp是傳物公司根本不是食品公司你們現在還繼續給我們這種假的你現在把自己這麼說的假這個\n\n43\n00:15:30,530 --> 00:15:57,644\n這個貨源來自於KevinShipper這件事你還在這裡跟我們報告這間公司給我們禁掉啊這間就不是食品製造商輸出商這間是傳物公司啊輸入商我們已經禁掉啊輸入商你今天在立法院跟我們報告還跟傳物公司說禁掉不是不是傳物公司你趕緊下來嘛你們的製造商還有一間KevinShipping第13頁\n\n44\n00:16:00,246 --> 00:16:08,342\n你連這個都不願意更改你再提供給立委的資料還是這樣子一字不改\n\n45\n00:16:13,586 --> 00:16:14,727\n這個登錄不實啊,你平時要怎麼集合?不要講說出事了才來抓,你要發揮預警預判的功能\n\n46\n00:16:35,506 --> 00:16:39,769\n兩監察院有共第一個應登錄的廠商就已經夠少了四十幾萬家廠商你這登錄一萬家然後登錄了這麼少的量裡面呢他胡說八道亂填亂登你也沒有再集合這要怎麼處理這個才叫應檢討和策進的作為是什麼你都沒有寫烈食藥署現在還用這種\n\n47\n00:17:02,119 --> 00:17:16,589\n不實的數據來呼嚨全立法院的立委有啊,開發食品就不是廠商,就不是食品輸出廠商啊你現在大聲一點跟我們說,這真的是睜著眼說瞎話,指鹿為馬你說喔,嚇死人跟我們說就就這間,你不去調查嚇死人很嚇死你\n\n48\n00:17:26,776 --> 00:17:30,058\n因為我們當時在系統裡面的話就是輸入啊我問你啦追溯追蹤系統亂登啦登載不實啦除了發生重大事件被你們查出來還不是你們查出來被立委\n\n49\n00:17:43,710 --> 00:17:55,297\n我們幫你查的啦被立委查出來了你們才要處罰以外你們才要重懲然後回頭去看他登錄不實然後嚴懲以外請海順你都沒出分啊海順你這台電也沒出分啊也登錄不實啊那平常登錄不實你要怎麼勾結啊你要怎麼集合啊\n\n50\n00:18:06,867 --> 00:18:08,570\n你不要說大家出問題你就會中場啦沒出問題你要怎麼處理、要怎麼精進、檢討\n\n51\n00:18:15,029 --> 00:18:40,824\n好林委員因為時間的關係請那個衛福部長對阿她都沒有講阿從一發生到現在都沒有任何的檢討也沒有精進的作為她現在精進的作為都管理業者安裝安裝安裝她都沒說我自己未來要做什麼你未來你做你讓食安五環破工讓溯源追蹤系統這個制度土法不足以自行你就是建立登陸制度就沒有食安問題了嗎\n\n52\n00:18:42,285 --> 00:18:43,426\n請衛福部針對林委員剛剛提出來的部分要再提檢討報告\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8520\t13265\t各位大家午安了是不是來請我們薛部長好請薛部長\n18424\t25668\t委員長對立法院來講其實是很敷衍了事你再看看3月7號3月7號你們來這裡做這個也是3、5環3月4號3、5環執行狀況和蘇丹紅處理事件的檢討報告這個是今天的檢討報告你們的結語除了主持第一句不同然後每一次每一句通通都一樣結語通通都一樣\n45820\t53231\t結語就是說我們都已經採取了精進措施了而且強化了風險預警的功能了而且及早發現未來將於第一時間阻斷問題產品於境外等等啊都講的一模一樣3月4號跟4月1號寫的都一模一樣的結論啊\n60903\t89240\t那我們就看你到底有沒有採取精進的這個措施啦你們在討論光是寶林茶室啊我上次在上個禮拜在這裡質詢就跟你講兩點而已第一個是通報的問題第二個是對於產品責任險沒有落實而且沒有集合沒有監督的這個問題就這兩點你們在這個裡面食藥署提出來的報告食品中毒通報你們不覺得你們有問題然後對於這個投保產品責任險的問題你說我們有法律了\n90040\t91602\t現在我們在講的是說如果因應非典型新型態而且是非社區型的餐飲場所的這個食品中毒案例那你上次說我上次就教於你說\n114344\t118907\t大家若是沒有新聞露出大家看到新聞報導才覺得要溯源然後大家集體去這個通報才有這麼的案例如果從3月24的第一例死亡通報324、325到326\n132800\t148353\t3月26日新聞露出才有之後才有大量通報那我要說很多話你若不是因為新聞露出你去看病醫生有可能誤判以外也有可能是說這是我個人健康管理不良或是我自己吃壞肚子這樣而已\n150635\t168569\t所以這個通報很重要那你上個禮拜你跟我講說這個食品中毒也必須要兩人或兩人以上攝取相同的食品而發生相似的症狀嗎但是事實上你們食藥署在規定你們衛福部在規定所謂的食品中毒還有後半段\n169269\t189604\t後半段是因為涉食食品造成極性的食品中毒不管它是化學的或是天然的毒素中毒即便只有一個人也視為一件食品中毒事件但通報通報是一回事啊那這種非社區型的餐飲場所的食品中毒通報恐怕沒有辦法更多人知道這個訊息進來\n191025\t216742\t所以整個制度面要怎麼樣讓未來每一個在這種非社區型的非典型的食品中毒裡面如果受害了或者是有症狀了可以在大家在通報以外還可以連結在一起找出正確的對症然後治療這很重要啊可是你們根本沒有精進的作業你們還沒有精進的措施你們說你們精進你怎麼都沒都沒有啊\n219864\t234971\t對於整個制度我上禮拜就跟你們說有沒有可以再檢討的地方難道一點問題都沒有嗎?看你們今天的報告是你們不覺得有問題你們也不覺得制度有問題也沒有覺得執行面有問題你們還節於寫的跟3月4號的報告一模一樣這不是在呼嚨立法院嗎?難怪人家講藐視國會啊\n243285\t244045\t我們還是需要再建立一個補充的機制\n270957\t296716\t對啦,要建立一個補充的機制雖然個案數少,但是嚴重度高的那這一種的通報的話也許後面的處理方式會不一樣通報還不是這樣,3月23給你們通報通報跟大家,大家都沒有來通報因為新聞沒有露出嘛我們是後來3月26一死一重症露出以後大家才瞬間湧入\n298657\t317224\t那個是老實講也有媒體的效應的問題但是我們現在要去處理就是因為一個案子進來的時候其他醫院並不知道所以未來這個部分都要去做處理如果說他有嚴重的比方說死亡的個案的時候怎麼樣\n318644\t328267\t就讓醫院知道說,類似的．對啊,所以製度面,連製度面都有檢討,值得檢討的地方啊可是你們食藥署,寫的這個報告能看嗎?那我們現在講說,成功的預判,你們的結論講我們更精進的政策,我們要發揮成功的預判這都說過了,他怎麼有成功預判過?\n340092\t349871\t連使用的既有的系統和制度都發生問題然後也不承認問題那我現在在問你保定未來的米酵菌酸是不是會列入食品的常規檢驗裡面\n352490\t369424\t這個還是要再看我們這一次調查的結果是怎樣因為老實講它怎麼樣發生的到目前你還不知道所以你要去說但我們知道如果也有個案的話米肖峻山的個案的話都是非常重大的傷亡重症或死亡很嚴重\n370505\t385052\t所以到底現在如果是在操作的哪一個環節才會進行米蝦菌栓這目前是我們在調查的一個重點啦好啦單調張出來現在看說要不要列入常規的檢驗項目啦\n386533\t387593\t你回去好好想一下啦但我今天還是要講土法不足以自刑\n402778\t427863\t這個業者自律我們都看到屢屢破功而且不可行而且絕對不能只仰賴業者自律你不能讓民眾去吃飯都是用生命在拔在拔、在堵啊堵生命在吃飯啊你知道現在在家自己煮飯的比例有多低嗎都是外食大家用生命去吃飯要堵堵這個運氣這是不行的讓我們要求說那至少大家都會確認說食安法第13條第1項裡面要公告的就應投\n431264\t439210\t食品責任險現在就食品製造業然後輸出輸入業還有餐飲業者通通要產品責任險嘛可是呢我們看到沒有機車強制險人家有1300多萬輛機車欸只要沒有投保馬上勾起出來告訴你你沒有投保我要開罰了你趕快去加保食品業食品製造業都中了多少金啊給你43萬45萬\n460686\t464470\t我現在告訴你沒關係食品製造輸入經營一百萬一百萬啦汽車要強制顯示一千三百萬輛的車子他都可以管理了\n483067\t485610\t這次的寶林茶室他沒有投保責任權如果沒有大時代如果沒有大原百\n500288\t519775\t事實上這些傷亡其實是重症的是沒有辦法接住他們了所以怎麼可以怎麼可以不被接住 不可以用死命打暈了但我比較慢的打到 還沒保險怎麼辦絕對要每一個每一時每一刻通通都是在有責任險的狀態裡面那我現在問你 這個我們請食藥署提供的啦\n525537\t539426\t請食藥署提供這五年裡面2019到2023年各個縣市沒有投保產品責任權開罰的件數這五年裡面你們食藥署提供的數字有沒有辦法放大\n541659\t567991\t這五年裡面,食藥署提供的,我不曉得正不正確,如果他對我們虛偽偽、亂說話,我也沒辦法啦。這個不在上面的是沒有零,是零,沒有開罰的紀錄。這個裡面一共全部162件,光是台南市政府就佔了九成以上。其他各縣市,我現在要問的是,是沒有在查還是查不到?\n569633\t570094\t你覺得這個數字反映是什麼意思?反映了什麼?\n588566\t599194\t報告委員 因為我們這一條的規定業者他其實也可以限改所以如果去查的時候看他沒有保那地方政府會要求他你看 很好 你看我們都沒報一年沒報 兩年沒報 查到叫你馬上限期改善經濟保險而已未開罰 大家也敢沒報開罰對3萬到3百萬大家最低開罰3萬7條 我們都知道\n617148\t632063\t所以你這樣子還可以限期改善所以都沒有開罰數字就是這個意思我們在法律上雖然有規定但在執行面大家都輕輕放下叫他趕快去保險就好了照署長的講法\n636877\t651262\t我們現在問說中央主管機關你要督導地方縣政府稽查以外、人力配置以外、中央法規要落實法規的這個規定啊阿拉伯都可以限期改善大家可以一年、兩年沒保險錢蓋起來捏到還不會出發這樣對不對\n657261\t658502\t衛生福利部長：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利部長．\n687621\t695369\t你們這份報告裡面有寫嗎?沒有!立法院大致跟你們解釋,你們才要說我現在還懷疑這裡的案件,看得出是中央政府沒在查嗎?還是中央政府沒在跟中央政府聯繫?跟地方政府聯繫,所以沒有聯繫,所以不知道\n707885\t732480\t這應該就是有去查的啦不是啦地方政府看起來有去查零件、零件、零件、零件、一件那其他沒有的很多縣市政府是零件喔通通都合格喔這是地方政府沒在查還是中央政府沒在跟地方政府聯繫你看這個台北市台北市一共112年兩件121年一件\n736542\t756171\t109年一件但是我自己去Google台北市政府查到的好像不是這樣你看台南市政府很多你看高雄全部是零沒有查到是沒有查到還是沒有再查我就不知道還是說中央政府跟地方政府沒有再聯繫提供給立委的數字是不真實的\n757806\t785293\t因為這個稽查的加次跟合格的加次這個我們資料都有所以事實上所呈現出來的這個不合格的加次應該是沒有問題來教你這樣講地方政府你們跟他取得的數據是一樣的而且是真實的證明全台灣所有的食品製造業所有的餐飲業者都有投保這個責任銜產品責任銜完全都沒有問題囉\n787013\t799279\t如果照那樣子的話一百...如果這樣子台北市的一百一十二年的應該就不會有寶林茶室了或是應該就一件是寶林茶室了\n800909\t820547\t這個我是有點懷疑啦,好沒關係,我再問問你喔,保證,我們現在看到說臺北市政府就針對轄區內37家保護公司跟大賣場、美食街稽查,然後查核這個風險啦齁,那各縣市的稽查是只有臺北市在進行,還是各地方政府都在進行?\n821823\t842073\t目前我們知道是臺北市比較積極在做阿那為什麼不要利用這個經驗以這個經驗要求全國全面性的清除了查一遍百貨公司各縣市東東都有百貨公司的風險都一樣嗎阿現在我看到剛剛看到新聞桃園只查異國料理只有異國料理有問題嗎我覺得這樣子講是不是也\n846195\t854805\t也有一點點怪怪的那我現在在跟你講這個我一直講土法不足以自行你們今天講這麼三大主題的檢討和策進行為光是蘇丹紅好了蘇丹紅事件\n861873\t889779\t蘇丹紅事件我們來看一下查到登錄不實因為你們的檢討報告還有因應的對策很多但是說來說去就是沒有對自己的檢討你們都只有對業者的檢討對自己的檢討就是你們的食安五環你們的溯源追蹤系統人家登載不實或是要應登而未登你們都沒有在管\n891019\t905112\t您的報告也沒寫,您都沒在管要怎麼處理?有啦,這個報分有啦,未來對於這些邊境的管理的不尊重沒有啦,我覺得你對這個委員會對立法院很不尊重耶\n906175\t922846\t我在質詢的時候就跟你講了你們現在被禁的21家的中國中國這個辣椒粉產品輸入的廠商我們講過Kevin Shipp是傳物公司根本不是食品公司你們現在還繼續給我們這種假的你現在把自己這麼說的假這個\n930530\t957644\t這個貨源來自於Kevin Shipper這件事你還在這裡跟我們報告這間公司給我們禁掉啊這間就不是食品製造商輸出商這間是傳物公司啊輸入商我們已經禁掉啊輸入商你今天在立法院跟我們報告還跟傳物公司說禁掉不是不是傳物公司你趕緊下來嘛你們的製造商還有一間Kevin Shipping第13頁\n960246\t968342\t你連這個都不願意更改你再提供給立委的資料還是這樣子一字不改\n973586\t974727\t這個登錄不實啊,你平時要怎麼集合?不要講說出事了才來抓,你要發揮預警預判的功能\n995506\t999769\t兩監察院有共第一個應登錄的廠商就已經夠少了四十幾萬家廠商你這登錄一萬家然後登錄了這麼少的量裡面呢他胡說八道亂填亂登你也沒有再集合這要怎麼處理這個才叫應檢討和策進的作為是什麼你都沒有寫烈食藥署現在還用這種\n1022119\t1036589\t不實的數據來呼嚨全立法院的立委有啊,開發食品就不是廠商,就不是食品輸出廠商啊你現在大聲一點跟我們說,這真的是睜著眼說瞎話,指鹿為馬你說喔,嚇死人跟我們說就就這間,你不去調查嚇死人很嚇死你\n1046776\t1050058\t因為我們當時在系統裡面的話就是輸入啊我問你啦追溯追蹤系統亂登啦登載不實啦除了發生重大事件被你們查出來還不是你們查出來被立委\n1063710\t1075297\t我們幫你查的啦被立委查出來了你們才要處罰以外你們才要重懲然後回頭去看他登錄不實然後嚴懲以外請海順你都沒出分啊海順你這台電也沒出分啊也登錄不實啊那平常登錄不實你要怎麼勾結啊你要怎麼集合啊\n1086867\t1088570\t你不要說大家出問題你就會中場啦沒出問題你要怎麼處理、要怎麼精進、檢討\n1095029\t1120824\t好 林委員因為時間的關係請那個衛福部長對阿 她都沒有講阿從一發生到現在都沒有任何的檢討也沒有精進的作為她現在精進的作為都管理業者安裝安裝安裝她都沒說我自己未來要做什麼你未來你做你讓食安五環破工讓溯源追蹤系統這個制度土法不足以自行你就是建立登陸制度就沒有食安問題了嗎\n1122285\t1123426\t請衛福部針對林委員剛剛提出來的部分要再提檢討報告\n","txt":"各位大家午安了是不是來請我們薛部長好請薛部長\n委員長對立法院來講其實是很敷衍了事你再看看3月7號3月7號你們來這裡做這個也是3、5環3月4號3、5環執行狀況和蘇丹紅處理事件的檢討報告這個是今天的檢討報告你們的結語除了主持第一句不同然後每一次每一句通通都一樣結語通通都一樣\n結語就是說我們都已經採取了精進措施了而且強化了風險預警的功能了而且及早發現未來將於第一時間阻斷問題產品於境外等等啊都講的一模一樣3月4號跟4月1號寫的都一模一樣的結論啊\n那我們就看你到底有沒有採取精進的這個措施啦你們在討論光是寶林茶室啊我上次在上個禮拜在這裡質詢就跟你講兩點而已第一個是通報的問題第二個是對於產品責任險沒有落實而且沒有集合沒有監督的這個問題就這兩點你們在這個裡面食藥署提出來的報告食品中毒通報你們不覺得你們有問題然後對於這個投保產品責任險的問題你說我們有法律了\n現在我們在講的是說如果因應非典型新型態而且是非社區型的餐飲場所的這個食品中毒案例那你上次說我上次就教於你說\n大家若是沒有新聞露出大家看到新聞報導才覺得要溯源然後大家集體去這個通報才有這麼的案例如果從3月24的第一例死亡通報324、325到326\n3月26日新聞露出才有之後才有大量通報那我要說很多話你若不是因為新聞露出你去看病醫生有可能誤判以外也有可能是說這是我個人健康管理不良或是我自己吃壞肚子這樣而已\n所以這個通報很重要那你上個禮拜你跟我講說這個食品中毒也必須要兩人或兩人以上攝取相同的食品而發生相似的症狀嗎但是事實上你們食藥署在規定你們衛福部在規定所謂的食品中毒還有後半段\n後半段是因為涉食食品造成極性的食品中毒不管它是化學的或是天然的毒素中毒即便只有一個人也視為一件食品中毒事件但通報通報是一回事啊那這種非社區型的餐飲場所的食品中毒通報恐怕沒有辦法更多人知道這個訊息進來\n所以整個制度面要怎麼樣讓未來每一個在這種非社區型的非典型的食品中毒裡面如果受害了或者是有症狀了可以在大家在通報以外還可以連結在一起找出正確的對症然後治療這很重要啊可是你們根本沒有精進的作業你們還沒有精進的措施你們說你們精進你怎麼都沒都沒有啊\n對於整個制度我上禮拜就跟你們說有沒有可以再檢討的地方難道一點問題都沒有嗎?看你們今天的報告是你們不覺得有問題你們也不覺得制度有問題也沒有覺得執行面有問題你們還節於寫的跟3月4號的報告一模一樣這不是在呼嚨立法院嗎?難怪人家講藐視國會啊\n我們還是需要再建立一個補充的機制\n對啦,要建立一個補充的機制雖然個案數少,但是嚴重度高的那這一種的通報的話也許後面的處理方式會不一樣通報還不是這樣,3月23給你們通報通報跟大家,大家都沒有來通報因為新聞沒有露出嘛我們是後來3月26一死一重症露出以後大家才瞬間湧入\n那個是老實講也有媒體的效應的問題但是我們現在要去處理就是因為一個案子進來的時候其他醫院並不知道所以未來這個部分都要去做處理如果說他有嚴重的比方說死亡的個案的時候怎麼樣\n就讓醫院知道說,類似的．對啊,所以製度面,連製度面都有檢討,值得檢討的地方啊可是你們食藥署,寫的這個報告能看嗎?那我們現在講說,成功的預判,你們的結論講我們更精進的政策,我們要發揮成功的預判這都說過了,他怎麼有成功預判過?\n連使用的既有的系統和制度都發生問題然後也不承認問題那我現在在問你保定未來的米酵菌酸是不是會列入食品的常規檢驗裡面\n這個還是要再看我們這一次調查的結果是怎樣因為老實講它怎麼樣發生的到目前你還不知道所以你要去說但我們知道如果也有個案的話米肖峻山的個案的話都是非常重大的傷亡重症或死亡很嚴重\n所以到底現在如果是在操作的哪一個環節才會進行米蝦菌栓這目前是我們在調查的一個重點啦好啦單調張出來現在看說要不要列入常規的檢驗項目啦\n你回去好好想一下啦但我今天還是要講土法不足以自刑\n這個業者自律我們都看到屢屢破功而且不可行而且絕對不能只仰賴業者自律你不能讓民眾去吃飯都是用生命在拔在拔、在堵啊堵生命在吃飯啊你知道現在在家自己煮飯的比例有多低嗎都是外食大家用生命去吃飯要堵堵這個運氣這是不行的讓我們要求說那至少大家都會確認說食安法第13條第1項裡面要公告的就應投\n食品責任險現在就食品製造業然後輸出輸入業還有餐飲業者通通要產品責任險嘛可是呢我們看到沒有機車強制險人家有1300多萬輛機車欸只要沒有投保馬上勾起出來告訴你你沒有投保我要開罰了你趕快去加保食品業食品製造業都中了多少金啊給你43萬45萬\n我現在告訴你沒關係食品製造輸入經營一百萬一百萬啦汽車要強制顯示一千三百萬輛的車子他都可以管理了\n這次的寶林茶室他沒有投保責任權如果沒有大時代如果沒有大原百\n事實上這些傷亡其實是重症的是沒有辦法接住他們了所以怎麼可以怎麼可以不被接住 不可以用死命打暈了但我比較慢的打到 還沒保險怎麼辦絕對要每一個每一時每一刻通通都是在有責任險的狀態裡面那我現在問你 這個我們請食藥署提供的啦\n請食藥署提供這五年裡面2019到2023年各個縣市沒有投保產品責任權開罰的件數這五年裡面你們食藥署提供的數字有沒有辦法放大\n這五年裡面,食藥署提供的,我不曉得正不正確,如果他對我們虛偽偽、亂說話,我也沒辦法啦。這個不在上面的是沒有零,是零,沒有開罰的紀錄。這個裡面一共全部162件,光是台南市政府就佔了九成以上。其他各縣市,我現在要問的是,是沒有在查還是查不到?\n你覺得這個數字反映是什麼意思?反映了什麼?\n報告委員 因為我們這一條的規定業者他其實也可以限改所以如果去查的時候看他沒有保那地方政府會要求他你看 很好 你看我們都沒報一年沒報 兩年沒報 查到叫你馬上限期改善經濟保險而已未開罰 大家也敢沒報開罰對3萬到3百萬大家最低開罰3萬7條 我們都知道\n所以你這樣子還可以限期改善所以都沒有開罰數字就是這個意思我們在法律上雖然有規定但在執行面大家都輕輕放下叫他趕快去保險就好了照署長的講法\n我們現在問說中央主管機關你要督導地方縣政府稽查以外、人力配置以外、中央法規要落實法規的這個規定啊阿拉伯都可以限期改善大家可以一年、兩年沒保險錢蓋起來捏到還不會出發這樣對不對\n衛生福利部長：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利部長．\n你們這份報告裡面有寫嗎?沒有!立法院大致跟你們解釋,你們才要說我現在還懷疑這裡的案件,看得出是中央政府沒在查嗎?還是中央政府沒在跟中央政府聯繫?跟地方政府聯繫,所以沒有聯繫,所以不知道\n這應該就是有去查的啦不是啦地方政府看起來有去查零件、零件、零件、零件、一件那其他沒有的很多縣市政府是零件喔通通都合格喔這是地方政府沒在查還是中央政府沒在跟地方政府聯繫你看這個台北市台北市一共112年兩件121年一件\n109年一件但是我自己去Google台北市政府查到的好像不是這樣你看台南市政府很多你看高雄全部是零沒有查到是沒有查到還是沒有再查我就不知道還是說中央政府跟地方政府沒有再聯繫提供給立委的數字是不真實的\n因為這個稽查的加次跟合格的加次這個我們資料都有所以事實上所呈現出來的這個不合格的加次應該是沒有問題來教你這樣講地方政府你們跟他取得的數據是一樣的而且是真實的證明全台灣所有的食品製造業所有的餐飲業者都有投保這個責任銜產品責任銜完全都沒有問題囉\n如果照那樣子的話一百...如果這樣子台北市的一百一十二年的應該就不會有寶林茶室了或是應該就一件是寶林茶室了\n這個我是有點懷疑啦,好沒關係,我再問問你喔,保證,我們現在看到說臺北市政府就針對轄區內37家保護公司跟大賣場、美食街稽查,然後查核這個風險啦齁,那各縣市的稽查是只有臺北市在進行,還是各地方政府都在進行?\n目前我們知道是臺北市比較積極在做阿那為什麼不要利用這個經驗以這個經驗要求全國全面性的清除了查一遍百貨公司各縣市東東都有百貨公司的風險都一樣嗎阿現在我看到剛剛看到新聞桃園只查異國料理只有異國料理有問題嗎我覺得這樣子講是不是也\n也有一點點怪怪的那我現在在跟你講這個我一直講土法不足以自行你們今天講這麼三大主題的檢討和策進行為光是蘇丹紅好了蘇丹紅事件\n蘇丹紅事件我們來看一下查到登錄不實因為你們的檢討報告還有因應的對策很多但是說來說去就是沒有對自己的檢討你們都只有對業者的檢討對自己的檢討就是你們的食安五環你們的溯源追蹤系統人家登載不實或是要應登而未登你們都沒有在管\n您的報告也沒寫,您都沒在管要怎麼處理?有啦,這個報分有啦,未來對於這些邊境的管理的不尊重沒有啦,我覺得你對這個委員會對立法院很不尊重耶\n我在質詢的時候就跟你講了你們現在被禁的21家的中國中國這個辣椒粉產品輸入的廠商我們講過Kevin Shipp是傳物公司根本不是食品公司你們現在還繼續給我們這種假的你現在把自己這麼說的假這個\n這個貨源來自於Kevin Shipper這件事你還在這裡跟我們報告這間公司給我們禁掉啊這間就不是食品製造商輸出商這間是傳物公司啊輸入商我們已經禁掉啊輸入商你今天在立法院跟我們報告還跟傳物公司說禁掉不是不是傳物公司你趕緊下來嘛你們的製造商還有一間Kevin Shipping第13頁\n你連這個都不願意更改你再提供給立委的資料還是這樣子一字不改\n這個登錄不實啊,你平時要怎麼集合?不要講說出事了才來抓,你要發揮預警預判的功能\n兩監察院有共第一個應登錄的廠商就已經夠少了四十幾萬家廠商你這登錄一萬家然後登錄了這麼少的量裡面呢他胡說八道亂填亂登你也沒有再集合這要怎麼處理這個才叫應檢討和策進的作為是什麼你都沒有寫烈食藥署現在還用這種\n不實的數據來呼嚨全立法院的立委有啊,開發食品就不是廠商,就不是食品輸出廠商啊你現在大聲一點跟我們說,這真的是睜著眼說瞎話,指鹿為馬你說喔,嚇死人跟我們說就就這間,你不去調查嚇死人很嚇死你\n因為我們當時在系統裡面的話就是輸入啊我問你啦追溯追蹤系統亂登啦登載不實啦除了發生重大事件被你們查出來還不是你們查出來被立委\n我們幫你查的啦被立委查出來了你們才要處罰以外你們才要重懲然後回頭去看他登錄不實然後嚴懲以外請海順你都沒出分啊海順你這台電也沒出分啊也登錄不實啊那平常登錄不實你要怎麼勾結啊你要怎麼集合啊\n你不要說大家出問題你就會中場啦沒出問題你要怎麼處理、要怎麼精進、檢討\n好 林委員因為時間的關係請那個衛福部長對阿 她都沒有講阿從一發生到現在都沒有任何的檢討也沒有精進的作為她現在精進的作為都管理業者安裝安裝安裝她都沒說我自己未來要做什麼你未來你做你讓食安五環破工讓溯源追蹤系統這個制度土法不足以自行你就是建立登陸制度就沒有食安問題了嗎\n請衛福部針對林委員剛剛提出來的部分要再提檢討報告\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.520 --> 00:13.265\n各位大家午安了是不是來請我們薛部長好請薛部長\n\n00:18.424 --> 00:25.668\n委員長對立法院來講其實是很敷衍了事你再看看3月7號3月7號你們來這裡做這個也是3、5環3月4號3、5環執行狀況和蘇丹紅處理事件的檢討報告這個是今天的檢討報告你們的結語除了主持第一句不同然後每一次每一句通通都一樣結語通通都一樣\n\n00:45.820 --> 00:53.231\n結語就是說我們都已經採取了精進措施了而且強化了風險預警的功能了而且及早發現未來將於第一時間阻斷問題產品於境外等等啊都講的一模一樣3月4號跟4月1號寫的都一模一樣的結論啊\n\n01:00.903 --> 01:29.240\n那我們就看你到底有沒有採取精進的這個措施啦你們在討論光是寶林茶室啊我上次在上個禮拜在這裡質詢就跟你講兩點而已第一個是通報的問題第二個是對於產品責任險沒有落實而且沒有集合沒有監督的這個問題就這兩點你們在這個裡面食藥署提出來的報告食品中毒通報你們不覺得你們有問題然後對於這個投保產品責任險的問題你說我們有法律了\n\n01:30.040 --> 01:31.602\n現在我們在講的是說如果因應非典型新型態而且是非社區型的餐飲場所的這個食品中毒案例那你上次說我上次就教於你說\n\n01:54.344 --> 01:58.907\n大家若是沒有新聞露出大家看到新聞報導才覺得要溯源然後大家集體去這個通報才有這麼的案例如果從3月24的第一例死亡通報324、325到326\n\n02:12.800 --> 02:28.353\n3月26日新聞露出才有之後才有大量通報那我要說很多話你若不是因為新聞露出你去看病醫生有可能誤判以外也有可能是說這是我個人健康管理不良或是我自己吃壞肚子這樣而已\n\n02:30.635 --> 02:48.569\n所以這個通報很重要那你上個禮拜你跟我講說這個食品中毒也必須要兩人或兩人以上攝取相同的食品而發生相似的症狀嗎但是事實上你們食藥署在規定你們衛福部在規定所謂的食品中毒還有後半段\n\n02:49.269 --> 03:09.604\n後半段是因為涉食食品造成極性的食品中毒不管它是化學的或是天然的毒素中毒即便只有一個人也視為一件食品中毒事件但通報通報是一回事啊那這種非社區型的餐飲場所的食品中毒通報恐怕沒有辦法更多人知道這個訊息進來\n\n03:11.025 --> 03:36.742\n所以整個制度面要怎麼樣讓未來每一個在這種非社區型的非典型的食品中毒裡面如果受害了或者是有症狀了可以在大家在通報以外還可以連結在一起找出正確的對症然後治療這很重要啊可是你們根本沒有精進的作業你們還沒有精進的措施你們說你們精進你怎麼都沒都沒有啊\n\n03:39.864 --> 03:54.971\n對於整個制度我上禮拜就跟你們說有沒有可以再檢討的地方難道一點問題都沒有嗎?看你們今天的報告是你們不覺得有問題你們也不覺得制度有問題也沒有覺得執行面有問題你們還節於寫的跟3月4號的報告一模一樣這不是在呼嚨立法院嗎?難怪人家講藐視國會啊\n\n04:03.285 --> 04:04.045\n我們還是需要再建立一個補充的機制\n\n04:30.957 --> 04:56.716\n對啦,要建立一個補充的機制雖然個案數少,但是嚴重度高的那這一種的通報的話也許後面的處理方式會不一樣通報還不是這樣,3月23給你們通報通報跟大家,大家都沒有來通報因為新聞沒有露出嘛我們是後來3月26一死一重症露出以後大家才瞬間湧入\n\n04:58.657 --> 05:17.224\n那個是老實講也有媒體的效應的問題但是我們現在要去處理就是因為一個案子進來的時候其他醫院並不知道所以未來這個部分都要去做處理如果說他有嚴重的比方說死亡的個案的時候怎麼樣\n\n05:18.644 --> 05:28.267\n就讓醫院知道說,類似的．對啊,所以製度面,連製度面都有檢討,值得檢討的地方啊可是你們食藥署,寫的這個報告能看嗎?那我們現在講說,成功的預判,你們的結論講我們更精進的政策,我們要發揮成功的預判這都說過了,他怎麼有成功預判過?\n\n05:40.092 --> 05:49.871\n連使用的既有的系統和制度都發生問題然後也不承認問題那我現在在問你保定未來的米酵菌酸是不是會列入食品的常規檢驗裡面\n\n05:52.490 --> 06:09.424\n這個還是要再看我們這一次調查的結果是怎樣因為老實講它怎麼樣發生的到目前你還不知道所以你要去說但我們知道如果也有個案的話米肖峻山的個案的話都是非常重大的傷亡重症或死亡很嚴重\n\n06:10.505 --> 06:25.052\n所以到底現在如果是在操作的哪一個環節才會進行米蝦菌栓這目前是我們在調查的一個重點啦好啦單調張出來現在看說要不要列入常規的檢驗項目啦\n\n06:26.533 --> 06:27.593\n你回去好好想一下啦但我今天還是要講土法不足以自刑\n\n06:42.778 --> 07:07.863\n這個業者自律我們都看到屢屢破功而且不可行而且絕對不能只仰賴業者自律你不能讓民眾去吃飯都是用生命在拔在拔、在堵啊堵生命在吃飯啊你知道現在在家自己煮飯的比例有多低嗎都是外食大家用生命去吃飯要堵堵這個運氣這是不行的讓我們要求說那至少大家都會確認說食安法第13條第1項裡面要公告的就應投\n\n07:11.264 --> 07:19.210\n食品責任險現在就食品製造業然後輸出輸入業還有餐飲業者通通要產品責任險嘛可是呢我們看到沒有機車強制險人家有1300多萬輛機車欸只要沒有投保馬上勾起出來告訴你你沒有投保我要開罰了你趕快去加保食品業食品製造業都中了多少金啊給你43萬45萬\n\n07:40.686 --> 07:44.470\n我現在告訴你沒關係食品製造輸入經營一百萬一百萬啦汽車要強制顯示一千三百萬輛的車子他都可以管理了\n\n08:03.067 --> 08:05.610\n這次的寶林茶室他沒有投保責任權如果沒有大時代如果沒有大原百\n\n08:20.288 --> 08:39.775\n事實上這些傷亡其實是重症的是沒有辦法接住他們了所以怎麼可以怎麼可以不被接住不可以用死命打暈了但我比較慢的打到還沒保險怎麼辦絕對要每一個每一時每一刻通通都是在有責任險的狀態裡面那我現在問你這個我們請食藥署提供的啦\n\n08:45.537 --> 08:59.426\n請食藥署提供這五年裡面2019到2023年各個縣市沒有投保產品責任權開罰的件數這五年裡面你們食藥署提供的數字有沒有辦法放大\n\n09:01.659 --> 09:27.991\n這五年裡面,食藥署提供的,我不曉得正不正確,如果他對我們虛偽偽、亂說話,我也沒辦法啦。這個不在上面的是沒有零,是零,沒有開罰的紀錄。這個裡面一共全部162件,光是台南市政府就佔了九成以上。其他各縣市,我現在要問的是,是沒有在查還是查不到?\n\n09:29.633 --> 09:30.094\n你覺得這個數字反映是什麼意思?反映了什麼?\n\n09:48.566 --> 09:59.194\n報告委員因為我們這一條的規定業者他其實也可以限改所以如果去查的時候看他沒有保那地方政府會要求他你看很好你看我們都沒報一年沒報兩年沒報查到叫你馬上限期改善經濟保險而已未開罰大家也敢沒報開罰對3萬到3百萬大家最低開罰3萬7條我們都知道\n\n10:17.148 --> 10:32.063\n所以你這樣子還可以限期改善所以都沒有開罰數字就是這個意思我們在法律上雖然有規定但在執行面大家都輕輕放下叫他趕快去保險就好了照署長的講法\n\n10:36.877 --> 10:51.262\n我們現在問說中央主管機關你要督導地方縣政府稽查以外、人力配置以外、中央法規要落實法規的這個規定啊阿拉伯都可以限期改善大家可以一年、兩年沒保險錢蓋起來捏到還不會出發這樣對不對\n\n10:57.261 --> 10:58.502\n衛生福利部長：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利部長．\n\n11:27.621 --> 11:35.369\n你們這份報告裡面有寫嗎?沒有!立法院大致跟你們解釋,你們才要說我現在還懷疑這裡的案件,看得出是中央政府沒在查嗎?還是中央政府沒在跟中央政府聯繫?跟地方政府聯繫,所以沒有聯繫,所以不知道\n\n11:47.885 --> 12:12.480\n這應該就是有去查的啦不是啦地方政府看起來有去查零件、零件、零件、零件、一件那其他沒有的很多縣市政府是零件喔通通都合格喔這是地方政府沒在查還是中央政府沒在跟地方政府聯繫你看這個台北市台北市一共112年兩件121年一件\n\n12:16.542 --> 12:36.171\n109年一件但是我自己去Google台北市政府查到的好像不是這樣你看台南市政府很多你看高雄全部是零沒有查到是沒有查到還是沒有再查我就不知道還是說中央政府跟地方政府沒有再聯繫提供給立委的數字是不真實的\n\n12:37.806 --> 13:05.293\n因為這個稽查的加次跟合格的加次這個我們資料都有所以事實上所呈現出來的這個不合格的加次應該是沒有問題來教你這樣講地方政府你們跟他取得的數據是一樣的而且是真實的證明全台灣所有的食品製造業所有的餐飲業者都有投保這個責任銜產品責任銜完全都沒有問題囉\n\n13:07.013 --> 13:19.279\n如果照那樣子的話一百...如果這樣子台北市的一百一十二年的應該就不會有寶林茶室了或是應該就一件是寶林茶室了\n\n13:20.909 --> 13:40.547\n這個我是有點懷疑啦,好沒關係,我再問問你喔,保證,我們現在看到說臺北市政府就針對轄區內37家保護公司跟大賣場、美食街稽查,然後查核這個風險啦齁,那各縣市的稽查是只有臺北市在進行,還是各地方政府都在進行?\n\n13:41.823 --> 14:02.073\n目前我們知道是臺北市比較積極在做阿那為什麼不要利用這個經驗以這個經驗要求全國全面性的清除了查一遍百貨公司各縣市東東都有百貨公司的風險都一樣嗎阿現在我看到剛剛看到新聞桃園只查異國料理只有異國料理有問題嗎我覺得這樣子講是不是也\n\n14:06.195 --> 14:14.805\n也有一點點怪怪的那我現在在跟你講這個我一直講土法不足以自行你們今天講這麼三大主題的檢討和策進行為光是蘇丹紅好了蘇丹紅事件\n\n14:21.873 --> 14:49.779\n蘇丹紅事件我們來看一下查到登錄不實因為你們的檢討報告還有因應的對策很多但是說來說去就是沒有對自己的檢討你們都只有對業者的檢討對自己的檢討就是你們的食安五環你們的溯源追蹤系統人家登載不實或是要應登而未登你們都沒有在管\n\n14:51.019 --> 15:05.112\n您的報告也沒寫,您都沒在管要怎麼處理?有啦,這個報分有啦,未來對於這些邊境的管理的不尊重沒有啦,我覺得你對這個委員會對立法院很不尊重耶\n\n15:06.175 --> 15:22.846\n我在質詢的時候就跟你講了你們現在被禁的21家的中國中國這個辣椒粉產品輸入的廠商我們講過KevinShipp是傳物公司根本不是食品公司你們現在還繼續給我們這種假的你現在把自己這麼說的假這個\n\n15:30.530 --> 15:57.644\n這個貨源來自於KevinShipper這件事你還在這裡跟我們報告這間公司給我們禁掉啊這間就不是食品製造商輸出商這間是傳物公司啊輸入商我們已經禁掉啊輸入商你今天在立法院跟我們報告還跟傳物公司說禁掉不是不是傳物公司你趕緊下來嘛你們的製造商還有一間KevinShipping第13頁\n\n16:00.246 --> 16:08.342\n你連這個都不願意更改你再提供給立委的資料還是這樣子一字不改\n\n16:13.586 --> 16:14.727\n這個登錄不實啊,你平時要怎麼集合?不要講說出事了才來抓,你要發揮預警預判的功能\n\n16:35.506 --> 16:39.769\n兩監察院有共第一個應登錄的廠商就已經夠少了四十幾萬家廠商你這登錄一萬家然後登錄了這麼少的量裡面呢他胡說八道亂填亂登你也沒有再集合這要怎麼處理這個才叫應檢討和策進的作為是什麼你都沒有寫烈食藥署現在還用這種\n\n17:02.119 --> 17:16.589\n不實的數據來呼嚨全立法院的立委有啊,開發食品就不是廠商,就不是食品輸出廠商啊你現在大聲一點跟我們說,這真的是睜著眼說瞎話,指鹿為馬你說喔,嚇死人跟我們說就就這間,你不去調查嚇死人很嚇死你\n\n17:26.776 --> 17:30.058\n因為我們當時在系統裡面的話就是輸入啊我問你啦追溯追蹤系統亂登啦登載不實啦除了發生重大事件被你們查出來還不是你們查出來被立委\n\n17:43.710 --> 17:55.297\n我們幫你查的啦被立委查出來了你們才要處罰以外你們才要重懲然後回頭去看他登錄不實然後嚴懲以外請海順你都沒出分啊海順你這台電也沒出分啊也登錄不實啊那平常登錄不實你要怎麼勾結啊你要怎麼集合啊\n\n18:06.867 --> 18:08.570\n你不要說大家出問題你就會中場啦沒出問題你要怎麼處理、要怎麼精進、檢討\n\n18:15.029 --> 18:40.824\n好林委員因為時間的關係請那個衛福部長對阿她都沒有講阿從一發生到現在都沒有任何的檢討也沒有精進的作為她現在精進的作為都管理業者安裝安裝安裝她都沒說我自己未來要做什麼你未來你做你讓食安五環破工讓溯源追蹤系統這個制度土法不足以自行你就是建立登陸制度就沒有食安問題了嗎\n\n18:42.285 --> 18:43.426\n請衛福部針對林委員剛剛提出來的部分要再提檢討報告\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.52,"end":13.265,"text":"各位大家午安了是不是來請我們薛部長好請薛部長"},{"start":18.424,"end":25.668,"text":"委員長對立法院來講其實是很敷衍了事你再看看3月7號3月7號你們來這裡做這個也是3、5環3月4號3、5環執行狀況和蘇丹紅處理事件的檢討報告這個是今天的檢討報告你們的結語除了主持第一句不同然後每一次每一句通通都一樣結語通通都一樣"},{"start":45.82,"end":53.231,"text":"結語就是說我們都已經採取了精進措施了而且強化了風險預警的功能了而且及早發現未來將於第一時間阻斷問題產品於境外等等啊都講的一模一樣3月4號跟4月1號寫的都一模一樣的結論啊"},{"start":60.903,"end":89.24,"text":"那我們就看你到底有沒有採取精進的這個措施啦你們在討論光是寶林茶室啊我上次在上個禮拜在這裡質詢就跟你講兩點而已第一個是通報的問題第二個是對於產品責任險沒有落實而且沒有集合沒有監督的這個問題就這兩點你們在這個裡面食藥署提出來的報告食品中毒通報你們不覺得你們有問題然後對於這個投保產品責任險的問題你說我們有法律了"},{"start":90.04,"end":91.602,"text":"現在我們在講的是說如果因應非典型新型態而且是非社區型的餐飲場所的這個食品中毒案例那你上次說我上次就教於你說"},{"start":114.344,"end":118.907,"text":"大家若是沒有新聞露出大家看到新聞報導才覺得要溯源然後大家集體去這個通報才有這麼的案例如果從3月24的第一例死亡通報324、325到326"},{"start":132.8,"end":148.353,"text":"3月26日新聞露出才有之後才有大量通報那我要說很多話你若不是因為新聞露出你去看病醫生有可能誤判以外也有可能是說這是我個人健康管理不良或是我自己吃壞肚子這樣而已"},{"start":150.635,"end":168.569,"text":"所以這個通報很重要那你上個禮拜你跟我講說這個食品中毒也必須要兩人或兩人以上攝取相同的食品而發生相似的症狀嗎但是事實上你們食藥署在規定你們衛福部在規定所謂的食品中毒還有後半段"},{"start":169.269,"end":189.604,"text":"後半段是因為涉食食品造成極性的食品中毒不管它是化學的或是天然的毒素中毒即便只有一個人也視為一件食品中毒事件但通報通報是一回事啊那這種非社區型的餐飲場所的食品中毒通報恐怕沒有辦法更多人知道這個訊息進來"},{"start":191.025,"end":216.742,"text":"所以整個制度面要怎麼樣讓未來每一個在這種非社區型的非典型的食品中毒裡面如果受害了或者是有症狀了可以在大家在通報以外還可以連結在一起找出正確的對症然後治療這很重要啊可是你們根本沒有精進的作業你們還沒有精進的措施你們說你們精進你怎麼都沒都沒有啊"},{"start":219.864,"end":234.971,"text":"對於整個制度我上禮拜就跟你們說有沒有可以再檢討的地方難道一點問題都沒有嗎?看你們今天的報告是你們不覺得有問題你們也不覺得制度有問題也沒有覺得執行面有問題你們還節於寫的跟3月4號的報告一模一樣這不是在呼嚨立法院嗎?難怪人家講藐視國會啊"},{"start":243.285,"end":244.045,"text":"我們還是需要再建立一個補充的機制"},{"start":270.957,"end":296.716,"text":"對啦,要建立一個補充的機制雖然個案數少,但是嚴重度高的那這一種的通報的話也許後面的處理方式會不一樣通報還不是這樣,3月23給你們通報通報跟大家,大家都沒有來通報因為新聞沒有露出嘛我們是後來3月26一死一重症露出以後大家才瞬間湧入"},{"start":298.657,"end":317.224,"text":"那個是老實講也有媒體的效應的問題但是我們現在要去處理就是因為一個案子進來的時候其他醫院並不知道所以未來這個部分都要去做處理如果說他有嚴重的比方說死亡的個案的時候怎麼樣"},{"start":318.644,"end":328.267,"text":"就讓醫院知道說,類似的．對啊,所以製度面,連製度面都有檢討,值得檢討的地方啊可是你們食藥署,寫的這個報告能看嗎?那我們現在講說,成功的預判,你們的結論講我們更精進的政策,我們要發揮成功的預判這都說過了,他怎麼有成功預判過?"},{"start":340.092,"end":349.871,"text":"連使用的既有的系統和制度都發生問題然後也不承認問題那我現在在問你保定未來的米酵菌酸是不是會列入食品的常規檢驗裡面"},{"start":352.49,"end":369.424,"text":"這個還是要再看我們這一次調查的結果是怎樣因為老實講它怎麼樣發生的到目前你還不知道所以你要去說但我們知道如果也有個案的話米肖峻山的個案的話都是非常重大的傷亡重症或死亡很嚴重"},{"start":370.505,"end":385.052,"text":"所以到底現在如果是在操作的哪一個環節才會進行米蝦菌栓這目前是我們在調查的一個重點啦好啦單調張出來現在看說要不要列入常規的檢驗項目啦"},{"start":386.533,"end":387.593,"text":"你回去好好想一下啦但我今天還是要講土法不足以自刑"},{"start":402.778,"end":427.863,"text":"這個業者自律我們都看到屢屢破功而且不可行而且絕對不能只仰賴業者自律你不能讓民眾去吃飯都是用生命在拔在拔、在堵啊堵生命在吃飯啊你知道現在在家自己煮飯的比例有多低嗎都是外食大家用生命去吃飯要堵堵這個運氣這是不行的讓我們要求說那至少大家都會確認說食安法第13條第1項裡面要公告的就應投"},{"start":431.264,"end":439.21,"text":"食品責任險現在就食品製造業然後輸出輸入業還有餐飲業者通通要產品責任險嘛可是呢我們看到沒有機車強制險人家有1300多萬輛機車欸只要沒有投保馬上勾起出來告訴你你沒有投保我要開罰了你趕快去加保食品業食品製造業都中了多少金啊給你43萬45萬"},{"start":460.686,"end":464.47,"text":"我現在告訴你沒關係食品製造輸入經營一百萬一百萬啦汽車要強制顯示一千三百萬輛的車子他都可以管理了"},{"start":483.067,"end":485.61,"text":"這次的寶林茶室他沒有投保責任權如果沒有大時代如果沒有大原百"},{"start":500.288,"end":519.775,"text":"事實上這些傷亡其實是重症的是沒有辦法接住他們了所以怎麼可以怎麼可以不被接住 不可以用死命打暈了但我比較慢的打到 還沒保險怎麼辦絕對要每一個每一時每一刻通通都是在有責任險的狀態裡面那我現在問你 這個我們請食藥署提供的啦"},{"start":525.537,"end":539.426,"text":"請食藥署提供這五年裡面2019到2023年各個縣市沒有投保產品責任權開罰的件數這五年裡面你們食藥署提供的數字有沒有辦法放大"},{"start":541.659,"end":567.991,"text":"這五年裡面,食藥署提供的,我不曉得正不正確,如果他對我們虛偽偽、亂說話,我也沒辦法啦。這個不在上面的是沒有零,是零,沒有開罰的紀錄。這個裡面一共全部162件,光是台南市政府就佔了九成以上。其他各縣市,我現在要問的是,是沒有在查還是查不到?"},{"start":569.633,"end":570.094,"text":"你覺得這個數字反映是什麼意思?反映了什麼?"},{"start":588.566,"end":599.194,"text":"報告委員 因為我們這一條的規定業者他其實也可以限改所以如果去查的時候看他沒有保那地方政府會要求他你看 很好 你看我們都沒報一年沒報 兩年沒報 查到叫你馬上限期改善經濟保險而已未開罰 大家也敢沒報開罰對3萬到3百萬大家最低開罰3萬7條 我們都知道"},{"start":617.148,"end":632.063,"text":"所以你這樣子還可以限期改善所以都沒有開罰數字就是這個意思我們在法律上雖然有規定但在執行面大家都輕輕放下叫他趕快去保險就好了照署長的講法"},{"start":636.877,"end":651.262,"text":"我們現在問說中央主管機關你要督導地方縣政府稽查以外、人力配置以外、中央法規要落實法規的這個規定啊阿拉伯都可以限期改善大家可以一年、兩年沒保險錢蓋起來捏到還不會出發這樣對不對"},{"start":657.261,"end":658.502,"text":"衛生福利部長：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利部長．"},{"start":687.621,"end":695.369,"text":"你們這份報告裡面有寫嗎?沒有!立法院大致跟你們解釋,你們才要說我現在還懷疑這裡的案件,看得出是中央政府沒在查嗎?還是中央政府沒在跟中央政府聯繫?跟地方政府聯繫,所以沒有聯繫,所以不知道"},{"start":707.885,"end":732.48,"text":"這應該就是有去查的啦不是啦地方政府看起來有去查零件、零件、零件、零件、一件那其他沒有的很多縣市政府是零件喔通通都合格喔這是地方政府沒在查還是中央政府沒在跟地方政府聯繫你看這個台北市台北市一共112年兩件121年一件"},{"start":736.542,"end":756.171,"text":"109年一件但是我自己去Google台北市政府查到的好像不是這樣你看台南市政府很多你看高雄全部是零沒有查到是沒有查到還是沒有再查我就不知道還是說中央政府跟地方政府沒有再聯繫提供給立委的數字是不真實的"},{"start":757.806,"end":785.293,"text":"因為這個稽查的加次跟合格的加次這個我們資料都有所以事實上所呈現出來的這個不合格的加次應該是沒有問題來教你這樣講地方政府你們跟他取得的數據是一樣的而且是真實的證明全台灣所有的食品製造業所有的餐飲業者都有投保這個責任銜產品責任銜完全都沒有問題囉"},{"start":787.013,"end":799.279,"text":"如果照那樣子的話一百...如果這樣子台北市的一百一十二年的應該就不會有寶林茶室了或是應該就一件是寶林茶室了"},{"start":800.909,"end":820.547,"text":"這個我是有點懷疑啦,好沒關係,我再問問你喔,保證,我們現在看到說臺北市政府就針對轄區內37家保護公司跟大賣場、美食街稽查,然後查核這個風險啦齁,那各縣市的稽查是只有臺北市在進行,還是各地方政府都在進行?"},{"start":821.823,"end":842.073,"text":"目前我們知道是臺北市比較積極在做阿那為什麼不要利用這個經驗以這個經驗要求全國全面性的清除了查一遍百貨公司各縣市東東都有百貨公司的風險都一樣嗎阿現在我看到剛剛看到新聞桃園只查異國料理只有異國料理有問題嗎我覺得這樣子講是不是也"},{"start":846.195,"end":854.805,"text":"也有一點點怪怪的那我現在在跟你講這個我一直講土法不足以自行你們今天講這麼三大主題的檢討和策進行為光是蘇丹紅好了蘇丹紅事件"},{"start":861.873,"end":889.779,"text":"蘇丹紅事件我們來看一下查到登錄不實因為你們的檢討報告還有因應的對策很多但是說來說去就是沒有對自己的檢討你們都只有對業者的檢討對自己的檢討就是你們的食安五環你們的溯源追蹤系統人家登載不實或是要應登而未登你們都沒有在管"},{"start":891.019,"end":905.112,"text":"您的報告也沒寫,您都沒在管要怎麼處理?有啦,這個報分有啦,未來對於這些邊境的管理的不尊重沒有啦,我覺得你對這個委員會對立法院很不尊重耶"},{"start":906.175,"end":922.846,"text":"我在質詢的時候就跟你講了你們現在被禁的21家的中國中國這個辣椒粉產品輸入的廠商我們講過Kevin Shipp是傳物公司根本不是食品公司你們現在還繼續給我們這種假的你現在把自己這麼說的假這個"},{"start":930.53,"end":957.644,"text":"這個貨源來自於Kevin Shipper這件事你還在這裡跟我們報告這間公司給我們禁掉啊這間就不是食品製造商輸出商這間是傳物公司啊輸入商我們已經禁掉啊輸入商你今天在立法院跟我們報告還跟傳物公司說禁掉不是不是傳物公司你趕緊下來嘛你們的製造商還有一間Kevin Shipping第13頁"},{"start":960.246,"end":968.342,"text":"你連這個都不願意更改你再提供給立委的資料還是這樣子一字不改"},{"start":973.586,"end":974.727,"text":"這個登錄不實啊,你平時要怎麼集合?不要講說出事了才來抓,你要發揮預警預判的功能"},{"start":995.506,"end":999.769,"text":"兩監察院有共第一個應登錄的廠商就已經夠少了四十幾萬家廠商你這登錄一萬家然後登錄了這麼少的量裡面呢他胡說八道亂填亂登你也沒有再集合這要怎麼處理這個才叫應檢討和策進的作為是什麼你都沒有寫烈食藥署現在還用這種"},{"start":1022.119,"end":1036.589,"text":"不實的數據來呼嚨全立法院的立委有啊,開發食品就不是廠商,就不是食品輸出廠商啊你現在大聲一點跟我們說,這真的是睜著眼說瞎話,指鹿為馬你說喔,嚇死人跟我們說就就這間,你不去調查嚇死人很嚇死你"},{"start":1046.776,"end":1050.058,"text":"因為我們當時在系統裡面的話就是輸入啊我問你啦追溯追蹤系統亂登啦登載不實啦除了發生重大事件被你們查出來還不是你們查出來被立委"},{"start":1063.71,"end":1075.297,"text":"我們幫你查的啦被立委查出來了你們才要處罰以外你們才要重懲然後回頭去看他登錄不實然後嚴懲以外請海順你都沒出分啊海順你這台電也沒出分啊也登錄不實啊那平常登錄不實你要怎麼勾結啊你要怎麼集合啊"},{"start":1086.867,"end":1088.57,"text":"你不要說大家出問題你就會中場啦沒出問題你要怎麼處理、要怎麼精進、檢討"},{"start":1095.029,"end":1120.824,"text":"好 林委員因為時間的關係請那個衛福部長對阿 她都沒有講阿從一發生到現在都沒有任何的檢討也沒有精進的作為她現在精進的作為都管理業者安裝安裝安裝她都沒說我自己未來要做什麼你未來你做你讓食安五環破工讓溯源追蹤系統這個制度土法不足以自行你就是建立登陸制度就沒有食安問題了嗎"},{"start":1122.285,"end":1123.426,"text":"請衛福部針對林委員剛剛提出來的部分要再提檢討報告"}]}}}}