{"id":150765,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150765","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0cb69e2808bac462f25a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a6d8a29ef9c6792bc05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:34:11 - 11:41:39","影片長度":"00:07:28","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":448,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:41:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:34:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":923,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（11時34分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["盧委員縣一：部長，辛苦了。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：我們先就寶林茶室的問題來看，你先念一下它的英文名字好嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：Bongkrek acid。"],["盧委員縣一：請問字面上是什麼意思？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是一個……"],["盧委員縣一：它是我們南島語系所謂拍擊的意思、拍打的意思，與米一點關係都沒有，也就是你們取名時是完全複製了中國的名詞，平時不是很喜歡去中國化，為什麼這時候又用了中國的字眼呢？當時是怎麼想的？"],["薛部長瑞元：當時第一次發現可能是這個物質的時候……"],["盧委員縣一：因為它以前是發生在中國，所以就沿用了中國的名詞。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，如果以中譯來講的話……"],["盧委員縣一：但是念的時候就很不順口啊！剛剛我聽到陳菁徽委員質詢時也是念不太出來，因為我們確實也沒遇過這個，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["盧委員縣一：米酵菌酸其實與米一點關係都沒有，不過唯一對的是它確實是在發酵時產生的，而且Bongkrek acid也是在油脂類的環境下產生的。這次發生了2個死亡的案件，就年齡而言並沒有一定性，一個是39歲、一個是六十幾歲，你認為它與underlying disease有關係嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：看起來應該是不太有關係。"],["盧委員縣一：現在有5個在加護病房的個案，醫院之間有相互聯繫嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為我們有找他們一起來開過會，大概做了這些cases本身的一些review，在訊息上應該會有互通。"],["盧委員縣一：我們知道它又稱為唐菖蒲伯克氏菌、又稱為米酵菌酸，沒有一個一定的名稱，唐菖蒲是什麼意思？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是一個植物。"],["盧委員縣一：它是劍蘭，為什麼不稱為劍蘭就好呢？所以有時候要想一下，好幾個名稱都不一致，到底在講什麼，大家都不知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：而且這是翻譯的名稱，又不是所有的唐菖蒲伯克氏菌都會產生米酵菌酸。"],["盧委員縣一：在做疾病的命名或規範時，應該讓大家都知道，不然又是這個、又是那個，也不知道到底在講什麼。","從所有的個案看起來，關鍵字大概都是炒粿條，既然是炒就會有油，因此，第一個，是否與油有關係、與調味料有關係？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然都不排除，但是後來我們在……"],["盧委員縣一：現在有比較確定的方向嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們把從寶林茶室收集回來的檢體送驗，包括醬油、包括油、包括粿條等等，並沒有驗出這個米酵菌酸。"],["盧委員縣一：現在已經有25案了，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：31案。"],["盧委員縣一：剛剛問的都是保險問題，現在確實是發生傷亡了，完全求償無門，政府要怎麼辦？"],["薛部長瑞元：可能也不至於通通求償無門啦！"],["盧委員縣一：不至於？"],["薛部長瑞元：第一個，該負責的除了寶林茶室這個廠商之外，它的出租者有沒有因為場所而有監督管理的責任，如果有的話，它就必須要負連帶賠償的責任。"],["盧委員縣一：他們現在住的加護病房分別是在臺北馬偕、三總、北醫及臺南市立醫院，我希望這些醫院針對個案的照顧是否能有所謂的視訊會議？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個會啦！"],["盧委員縣一：會有嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個基本上都會有，而且我們的CDC疾管署也都陸陸續續在關心這些病人的進展。"],["盧委員縣一：關於小林製藥紅麴的部分，它從2016年開始供應原料、2021年開始販售，大概二、三年的時間造成了這些問題，我們是什麼時候開始注意到的？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是在日本的報導出來之後，也就是在今年的年初。"],["盧委員縣一：現在的作為是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們一方面收集日本那邊的資訊、一方面是接受國內……"],["盧委員縣一：目前臺灣就只有那件洗腎的個案嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在報上來的應該是有6件、有6例。"],["盧委員縣一：它的報導說是不明的物體，不明的物體是指什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：不知道。"],["盧委員縣一：你們也不知道？日本也不知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：還沒查出來，他們現在只說懷疑是軟毛青黴酸。"],["盧委員縣一：日本現在有5死，你們有沒有做case study？有沒有得到資料？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前還沒有。"],["盧委員縣一：希望你們能夠拿到資料，萬一臺灣發生案例時，你們還是可以作為依據啊！可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然、當然。"],["盧委員縣一：還是要講到賠償的問題，像這樣的跨海賠償是誰要幫忙？"],["薛部長瑞元：日本那邊有與我們聯繫……"],["盧委員縣一：我們政府有沒有角色？"],["薛部長瑞元：透過政府的IHR，看到point與我們聯繫，也希望臺灣這邊能夠提供通報個案的資料。"],["盧委員縣一：如果導致終身洗腎的話，由哪個窗口與日本政府商談？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前建立的窗口是在IHR，也就是CDC這邊。"],["盧委員縣一：CDC這裡？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["盧委員縣一：這個有幫忙、有協助了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：兩天前他們才來要資料而已，我們現在準備把資料提供過去。"],["盧委員縣一：目前的6案中有幾個人洗腎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好像不是所有案例都是洗腎，我要再確認一下。"],["盧委員縣一：感謝部長，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在處理臨時提案，總共有10案，請一併宣讀。","一、","有鑑於今年食安事件頻傳，包含「西布特羅食安事件」、「蘇丹紅食安事件」以及近日「寶林茶室食安中毒事件」，一連串的食安風暴，讓台灣民眾人心惶惶，尤以「寶林茶室中毒事件」累計中毒人數高達31人，更造成二人死亡，五人仍在加護病房搶救當中，且根據衛生福利部，該案目前食材檢體共35件，皆未檢驗出米酵菌酸，整體食物中毒因果尚未釐清。根據行政院食品安全會報設置要點第五條之規定，「本會報每三個月召開會議一次，必要時得召開臨時會議，均由召集人召集並主持之」，食安會報為政府進行中跨部會合作、資訊整合與風險溝通的平台，行政院前雖已於三月中召開，惟是時尚未爆發更為嚴重之「寶林茶室食安中毒事件」，現已具備召開臨時食安會報之必要性與正當性，為敦促行政院以及各部會就食安檢驗、稽查量能、風險預防以及本事件後續處理進行檢討並研擬策進作為，爰提案要求行政院食安辦公室、衛生福利部，儘速提出召開緊急食安會報的需求。","提案人：陳菁徽　　廖偉翔　　蘇清泉","二、","「民以食為天，食以安為先」，食物是民眾攝取營養的主要來源，並與健康息息相關，其安全問題為長久以來重視的課題，亦是當前影響民生的重要議題之一，尤其隨著生活水準的提高與健康意識的高漲，國人對食品安全的要求日益漸高，亦受到各界高度關注與檢視，此乃政府食安網的計畫緣起與宗旨。去年從巴西蛋到今年台糖豬瘦肉精、蘇丹紅辣椒粉、小林製藥紅麴原料，以及近日寶林茶店等一連串食安風暴，導致各地衛生局稽查人員業務量大幅提升，繁重業務讓人吃不消，補人速度遠不及出走潮，以臺北市為例，去年高達36%稽查人員選擇離職。食安網中的稽查人員，就如同社安網中的社工或專業人員，即便專業要求不同，但都是第一線民眾健康權益的守護者，若基層稽查人員不足，食安網也無法發揮預期功用。如社安網計畫，挹注資源補助地方政府於專業人力的補充，食安網計畫目前較少著墨於此，為了使綿密的食安網系統發揮作用，預防並即時因應未來食品衛生安全事件，爰要求衛生福利部通盤檢討中央與地方稽查量能，強化人力進用及專業久任，增資源、補人力，中央與地方協力，完善食品安全網。","提案人：陳菁徽　　廖偉翔　　蘇清泉","三、","有鑑於近期寶林茶室食物中毒事件，造成多名消費者死傷，卻因餐廳業者產品責任險過期，恐造成受害者求償無門。又經台北市政府稽查同商場之業者後，亦有數家業者未保險或保險過期。甚至有持過期保險證件以應付稽查之情形發生，足見此問題應建立有效監督系統改善之必要。","爰要求衛福部於一個月內，完成對於餐飲業者之產品責任險，評估建立雲端資料庫之可能性，以供主管機關、保險公司、業者以及民眾做管理及查核之用。","提案人：王育敏","連署人：陳菁徽　　蘇清泉","四、","有鑑於日本小林製藥生產有毒紅麴事件，我國亦有上百件產品遭到汙染，其中近九成具有衛福部「健食規字」小綠人認證標章，卻仍無法有效保證國民食用保健品或食品之安全性。又查我國另有更進一步個案審查之「健食字」認證標章，惟紅麴類產品，自設立標章機制以來，僅有九件通過，且民眾不易分辨兩種標章區別，恐有造成民眾對政府食安認證標章之信心危機。","爰要求衛福部於一個月內，提出小綠人標章之機制檢討報告，評估有效使民眾辨認兩種小綠人標章之可能性。另應同時說明如何解決「健食字」標章產品數量偏少之問題與成因。","提案人：王育敏","連署人：陳菁徽　　蘇清泉","五、","茲因近日寶林茶室食品中毒案件造成多位國人重病死亡舉國譁然，雖《食品安全衛生管理法》第十三條第一項明定「經中央主管機關公告類別及規模之食品業者，應投保產品責任保險」現行規範係仰賴自我約束之「備查制」，惟業者眾多主管機關無法進行系統化稽查，政府對於未依法投保黑數無從掌握，致衍生此案責任保險已屆期失效。","應將現行食品安全責任保險比照《強制汽車責任保險法》導入強制性，明確規範投保義務人、保險人及主管機關間之權利義務，以利系統化勾稽根除投機業者，爰建請衛福部針對食品安全責任保險改強制性乙案於立法院召開公聽會，並提出《強制食品安全責任保險法》草案。","提案人：陳菁徽　　廖偉翔　　涂權吉　　徐巧芯","六、","近期食安事件頻仍，前有進口過期蛋，繼台糖驗出萊豬、「蘇丹紅」事件後，近期又爆出「寶林茶室」食物中毒事件，一連串的食安風暴，讓台灣民眾人心惶惶。台灣食品安全事件層出不窮，過去柴米油鹽醬醋茶幾乎通通出過包，屢屢引起社會震撼，這些事件不僅持續影響著當代人，更跨越數代，對社會造成了深遠的影響。2016蔡英文提出食安五環，食安事件依舊頻仍，顯示效果有限。","爰要求衛福部於一個月內，研議食安五環，針對每個環節違反業者研議防堵改善方案，並擬定裁罰措施或提高裁罰金額，避免再發生食安事件，提供消費者安全的食安環境。並向立法院社福及衛環委員會提出專案報告。是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳菁徽　　廖偉翔","七、","有鑒於行政院經濟部依電價費率審議會決議電價4月起平均調漲11%，民生用電及產業用電將全面調漲，也帶起民眾日常生活萬物飆漲的問題。與民眾健康息息相關的救命的醫療機構，是24小時運作場域，貴重設備都是低溫不斷電狀態，加上感染控制、室內溫度維持等，用電量就會比一般民生要高，如果電費調漲，以10%漲幅推估，台灣2萬多家醫療院所，一年增加電費會超過30億元。根據中華民國區域醫院協會實際調查，不同規模的醫院（250床以下到450床以上）每月平均用電度數在60萬度到130萬度，平均每月95萬度，這次漲價估計除了原本電費負擔外，額外年度增加成本平均增加500萬，如果用醫院目前總額環境下毛利3%的估算，每年需要增加1.5億的醫療收入才能支付這次漲電價的額外成本，更何況目前醫院總額下毛利僅有1-2%，試問哪一家醫院可以額外增加醫療業務1.5億呢？121家公開財報中，有40家醫務結餘為虧損，另有26家醫務結餘小於1千萬，醫院在生死存亡間載浮載沈，當電價海嘯襲來，便將瀕臨熄燈滅頂、被迫縮減醫療提供。衛生福利部對醫療的管制，採社會福利的思維計畫性經濟的管制措施，儼然醫療機構的生存可視為社會福利的公益團體。爰此，為保障民眾就醫的可得性與品質，衛生福利部及經濟部必須共同考量醫療機構的社會公益的特殊性，醫療機構應比照社福機構允列入凍漲電價。是否有當，敬請公決。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳菁徽　　廖偉翔　　王育敏","八、","近期因寶林茶室中毒案影響國人攝取米飯、米食製品及木耳等產品的消費信心。我國目前每年稻米產量約140萬公噸，國內稻米在收穫後，會經過烘乾、碾製、包裝等步驟，從稻穀收穫，到包裝成食米過程，都沒有經過發酵步驟，且市售食米多數於收穫後半年內售磬，受到汙染的可能性低。","農糧署也特別對外表示，以米為主成分或純米製成的粿條、米粉等產品，不經過發酵步驟，製程單純。爰此，為重建民眾對米類製品信心，提案要求一、衛福部應盡速完成事件調查，嚴格要求地方政府落實食品安全督導業務。二、衛福部應跨部會合作，針對米類製品進行相關食品安全衛教及宣傳，並將相關作為於一個月內以書面報告向社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告。","提案人：黃秀芳　　劉建國　　王正旭","九、","日前，食藥署及疾管署會同臺北市政府衛生局及毒物專家至「寶林茶室」聯合調查，抽驗涉案餐點所使用之食材高麗菜、豆芽菜、醬油、鴻喜菇及香蘭葉等共35件檢體，由食藥署攜回檢驗，針對粿條檢體及關鍵檢體（粿條、香蘭葉、在來米粉、醬油、老抽），目前仍進行檢驗中。另上游供貨商產品抽驗15件及8件環境檢體也已送交食藥署檢驗。然截至目前為止於相關食材中仍無所獲。","依目前檢驗情況而言，僅是確定患者體內「有」米酵菌酸，若進一步進行定量檢驗則可確認濃度，有助釐清患者體內米酵菌酸濃度與病況間的關係，例如若濃度高，就較可認為是米酵菌酸造成，但若低於國際文獻中可能致病的濃度，就要考慮其他可能性、進行綜合判斷。爰此，提案要求衛福部在陸續取得標準品後，應持續優化檢驗方法，盡速完成相關試驗，以利早日釐清毒性物質與個案間病況之關係。","提案人：黃秀芳　　劉建國　　王正旭","十、","針對此次台北市寶林食安事件，除遠百A13店從去年10月就沒有投保食品及公共意外責任險外，其他如饒河店、松山店、台北車站店的保險也全部因為欠費未繳而喪失保約，此事凸顯出餐飲業者在未投保保險、未登錄非登不可平台、未提供員工體檢資料以及進貨單據等行政類作業，政府端竟然都沒有預警機制。","同時針對餐廳業者保險未保一事，從中央衛福部、地方衛生局處、百貨公司業者、美食街承攬業者等，竟然都沒有人知道，層層把關機制完全喪失。","對此要求衛福部立即檢討一個月內建立，諸如保險資訊、員工體檢報告、進貨單據這些資料，可以透過系統勾稽，系統警示的，應該盡速來建置系統，同時研擬百貨業者、美食街承包商對於下層餐廳的管理責任，建置起一個食安網。","提案人：劉建國","連署人：黃秀芳　　王正旭"],["主席：剛剛蘇委員提的第5案及第7案要優先處理，請問各位有沒有意見？"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有。"],["主席：沒有，那就先處理蘇委員的案子。","先處理第5案。"],["吳署長秀梅：報告委員，第5案有一些文字的修正。第二段第一行修改為「應將現行依據食品安全衛生管理法第十三條授權公告導入強制性」；第二行沒有修改；第三行的「以利系統化勾稽」的「勾稽」劃掉，修正為「以利系統化根除投機業者」；再來是「爰建請衛福部針對前述公告改強制性一案召開說明會，並提出公告修正草案」。不過，這個本來就是強制的。"],["主席：本來就是強制，現在是沒有落實的問題。"],["吳署長秀梅：應該是在執行的時候、地方稽查的時候，可能要確實去……不過，這個都是強制的，改這個要怎麼……"],["主席：現在就一案一案來，第5案，巧芯委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：主席，我說明一下。雖然食品安全管理法現在看起來是強制的，但實際上根本不需要向政府部門通報，剛剛林淑芬委員的質詢也講了，為什麼它裁罰的件數這麼少，因為要由地方的每一個稽查員到每一家被檢舉的店去看才知道它是有或沒有，可是我們這個提案講的是比照強制汽機車責任險的保險法。我們都知道汽機車強制險是會通報的，一旦它超時了、一旦它沒有續保的話，將會自動連動到政府部門直接開罰，這是完全不一樣的事情。請不要說我們現在已經有強制來塘塞，因為我們現在所說的強制與一般國人所認知的保險及政府之間的強制是完全不同的，包含在衛福部的網站上也是提到，雖然我們有要求保險，而且保險過期被發現會有罰則，但是雖然要向政府通報，但它的期限超過之後並沒有直接裁罰的規範啊！"],["吳署長秀梅：報告委員，我們會改我們的系統，以後就會有警示的機制，而且這個警示會通知業者、會通知地方政府，讓他們看到保險即將到期，而且是在到期前的一個月，現在我們正朝這個方向修改。這裡寫得好像又與我們現在那個……因為我們的非登不可現在已經可以讓他們上去勾，只是那個到期了沒有，現在等於是沒有看到那個資訊。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！你們沒有到期的資訊、沒有通報給地方政府、沒有因為這樣連動的後續開罰，後面完全是沒有的啊！你們要做是OK，所以我的意思其實就是一樣嘛！至於公聽會改成說明會，這個部分沒有問題。"],["吳署長秀梅：並提出改善措施，這樣好不好？"],["徐委員巧芯：哪一邊的改善措施？"],["吳署長秀梅：最後一句的「並提出」，因為我們的公告沒有修正。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，這個部分沒有問題。"],["吳署長秀梅：並提出改善措施。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，沒問題。但是我們這個提案的要求非常明確，你不能按照現行的規定讓它只是填報，在填報之後要有與中央及地方的連動、通知，讓中央或地方能夠看到系統並予以開罰。"],["吳署長秀梅：好。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。"],["主席：第5案照修正文字通過。","第6案。"],["吳署長秀梅：報告委員，第6案第一行後面的「驗出萊豬」要修改成「繼台糖驗出西布特羅」，這次的事件是西布特羅，第一行後面那裡。第二段也有一些文字上的修正，「爰要求衛福部於二個月內，研議食安五環……研議有效防堵不法事件改善方案，並擬定強化措施或落實裁罰」，倒數第二行改為「提出書面報告」，以上。"],["主席：可以嗎？"],["蘇委員清泉：可以。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。"],["主席：第6案照修正文字通過。","第7案。"],["李副署長君禮：第7案是關於電價調整，我們建議將醫療機構比照社福機構列入凍漲。倒數第二行建議改幾個字，第一個就是加入「評估醫療機構」，並將「應」拿掉，也就是「評估醫療機構比照社福機構列入凍漲之可行性」，我們來評估它的可行性。","主要是向各位委員報告，依照電業法，電價的調整是由電價審議會決定，事實上，這次的電價調整已經開始實施，但是我們願意將委員的建議納入評估，未來在電價調整時可以納入作為凍漲的可行性評估。為什麼社福機構有？主要是針對弱勢團體，這次有考慮針對弱勢團體給予凍漲，至於未來醫療機構要不要納入……"],["蘇委員清泉：我看你們經濟部就是倉促公告，我好像在國防委員會有聽到這個理由，你都是說審議小組已經通過了，所以今天是愚人節就把我們當成瘋子、就是要漲價。之前國民黨團接見醫療團體，我們是要求所有醫療相關的都凍漲，後來衛福部及電價小組表示地區醫院可以凍漲，但是有些區域醫院的規模不大，而且是在偏遠地區。如果你們要這樣，誠如薛部長所言，醫學中心的家大業大比較沒有影響，支出增加1%，但如果是偏遠地區的區域醫院，他們都是很慘淡經營，而且規模也不是很大，只比地區醫院高一檔而已，我能夠接受的就是區域醫院凍漲，至於醫學中心調漲就還可以接受，可以嗎？你又要講電價小組不是你可以控制嗎？"],["李副署長君禮：關於地區醫院的部分，再由我們與衛福部爭取看要如何給予補助。這個真的是半年調整一次，4月1日調整一次、10月1日也會再做一次考量，因為這次已經公告實施了，所以我們會再做整體的評估，並將它納入下次的修正。"],["蘇委員清泉：不然就加上一句，區域醫院以下產生的費用由衛福部編列預算幫忙豁免、幫忙補助啦！部長，這樣可以嗎？"],["主席：他沒錢啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：今年的預算都經過大院的審查通過了，沒有這一項。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們超收的稅收、公務預算都有喔！還有預備金等等，很多啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：那個都還沒有列入預算。"],["蘇委員清泉：在這個決議加上這一句，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有預算啊！沒有預算啊！不能要衛福部編列預算，因為我們現在沒有預算，預算都已經通過了。"],["楊委員曜：他們要編列預算就要等到明年了。"],["薛部長瑞元：要到明年了。"],["蘇委員清泉：你再念一遍，要怎麼幹？"],["李副署長君禮：評估醫療機構比照社福機構允列入凍漲電價之可行性，也就是我們可以評估，但是無法在這邊承諾一定會凍漲，事實上，這個也已經開始實施了。"],["主席：第7案照修正文字通過。","第1案。"],["許主任輔：主席，剛剛已經向陳委員報告過第1案的部分。中間第十列的「寶林茶室食安中毒事件」前面的「更為嚴重之」5個字建議刪除。再來是倒數第二行的「儘速提出」改成「評估提前」，最後一行的「召開緊急食安會報」，建議將「緊急」拿掉，在最後「的需求」3個字也拿掉，所以最後一句就變成「評估提前召開食安會報」。"],["主席：第1案照修正文字通過。","第2案。"],["吳署長秀梅：第2案的部分，在倒數第二行有文字的修正，我們希望可以改為「強化人員培訓及相關教育訓練，」，後面就接「增資源……」。"],["陳委員菁徽：剛剛是勉強OK、勉強同意，因為已經有很多委員提出你們最缺的是人力，其實你們原本就有在做培訓了啊！"],["吳署長秀梅：人力這個都有留著，本來是強化人力進用及專業久任，我們把它改成強化人員培訓及相關教育訓練。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為你們沒有像社工一樣去盤點，它覺得它自己需要多少人、你們覺得它需要多少人，以至於現在這個缺口很大，所以我想你的當務之急應該是人力而不是培訓，但是你們本來就有在做培訓，所以你把它寫進來也OK，謝謝。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝委員。"],["主席：第2案照修正文字通過。","第3案。"],["吳署長秀梅：第3案也是有文字的修正，第二段第一行的「評估建立雲端資料庫」改為「評估改善系統自動示警」接「之可能性」。"],["主席：第3案照修正文字通過。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝委員。"],["主席：第4案。"],["吳署長秀梅：第4案也有一些文字的修正，首先是在第一段第二行的「其中近九成」要修訂為「其中七件」具有衛福部「健食規字」，所以是把「近九成」改為「七件」；再來是把第二行後面的「卻仍無法有效保證」劃掉，我們請求改成「恐影響國民食用健康食品」，這裡就是有文字的修正；第五行的「僅有九件通過，且」劃掉，也就是「自設立標章機制以來，民眾不易分辨」，所以就是劃掉「僅有九件通過，且」，謝謝。","再來是第二段的部分，原本是要衛福部於一個月內，我們希望可以是三個月內。"],["主席：要好好澈底檢討。"],["吳署長秀梅：是。"],["主席：出來的報告要可供檢視。"],["吳署長秀梅：好。"],["主席：第3案照修正文字通過。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。"],["主席：第8案。"],["吳署長秀梅：在第二段的倒數第三行，原本是「針對米類製品進行……，我們改為「針對食品中毒」，也就是米類製品改為食品中毒。"],["主席：黃委員，可以嗎？好，第8案照修正文字通過。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。"],["主席：第9案。"],["吳署長秀梅：第9案也是有文字修正，第一段第五行原本是「目前仍進行米酵菌酸檢驗中」，因為我們已經都完成了，所以改為「進行米酵菌酸檢驗」；這一段最後一行，「相關食材中仍無所獲」改成「相關食材中米酵菌酸均未檢出」，因為實際上這些食材都沒有檢出米酵菌酸。"],["主席：請問黃委員，可以嗎？好，第9案照修正文字通過。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。"],["主席：第10案。"],["吳署長秀梅：第10案的第三段有文字修訂，「對此要求衛福部立即檢討」後面加上「一個月內建立」，再接「諸如產品責任險相關保險資訊」，至於後續的「員工體檢報告、進貨單據這些資料」都要劃掉，後面的「可以……」都要保留；第三段第三行中間的「同時研擬百貨業者」改為「同時會同經濟部研擬百貨業者」。"],["主席：可以嗎？好，第10案照修正文字通過。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。"],["主席：臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來請楊曜委員進行發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"150765","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150765","tool":"pyannote","id":"150765-pyannote"},"job_id":"sK9WdGdYzpquBzkv","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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00:01:04,560\n他是我們南島語系的所謂的拍擠的意思拍打的意思他是因為那個餅他在做的時候是這樣做的可是跟米一點關係都沒有那也就是說你們在取名的時候是完全複製了中國的名字你們很喜歡去中國化那為什麼這個時候又用了中國的字眼呢\n\n4\n00:01:06,335 --> 00:01:23,488\n當時是怎麼想的當時第一次發現這一個這可能是這一個物質的時候因為它以前是發生在中國所以就引用了中國不過現在大家在唸的時候就很不順口啊我剛剛在聽陳敬惠律委在講的時候\n\n5\n00:01:25,089 --> 00:01:52,399\n因為這個我們確實也沒有遇過對不對那米酵菌酸它其實跟米一點關係都沒有不過裡面唯一發對的那個是酵就是發酵的時候發生的這個它是在我們在油脂這個環境之下產生的那這次我們看到的這個兩個死亡的案件我看它的年齡很像跟\n\n6\n00:01:53,459 --> 00:02:20,023\n沒有所謂的一定性他一個是39歲一個是60幾歲那你認為他的underlinedisease有關係嗎?看起來應該不太有關係那現在這五個加護病房的個案有醫院之間有互相聯繫嗎?因為我們有找他們一起來開過會大概做了這些case本身的一些review所以大概訊息上面應該會有互通\n\n7\n00:02:22,093 --> 00:02:40,561\n好,就我們這一頁看到一個唐昌浦博士菌,它又叫做唐昌浦博士菌,它又是米酵菌酸,都沒有一個一定的那個名稱,那個唐昌浦是什麼意思?應該是一個植物。是,它是健卵。那為什麼就不用健卵就好了?\n\n8\n00:02:42,793 --> 00:03:07,014\n所以有時候要想一下然後跟上面那個又不一致啊那到底在講什麼大家都不知道而且這個翻譯的名稱又不是所謂的唐昌甫伯克氏菌都有產生以下菌酸所以有時候在做一些疾病的一些命名或者是規範應該要讓大家知道不然你又是這個又是那個然後也不知道這到底在講什麼我們拿到那個我們個案數\n\n9\n00:03:09,343 --> 00:03:25,303\n我看這樣一個個案齁就是你從上面到下面看到的關鍵字齁大概都是草規條嘛齁那這個草規條的幾乎上最主要的關鍵字就是草嘛所以它就是有啊所以想到的話是不是這樣子第一個\n\n10\n00:03:26,618 --> 00:03:54,397\n跟油有關係?跟調味料有關係?當然都不排除啦但是後來我們在現在有比較確定的方向了嗎?現在我們把那一個從寶林茶室這邊收集回來的這些檢體去驗包括醬油、包括油、包括包括這個果條等等這一些大概都沒有驗出來這個所謂的米酵因素那現在是25案了嘛對不對?欸,31\n\n11\n00:03:56,778 --> 00:04:22,726\n三十一岸那你看剛才都說保險的問題那現在如果說確實有發生傷亡了那完全球場無門我們政府要怎麼辦可能也不至於通通球場無門第一個就是說該負責的除了這一個寶林茶室本身這一個廠商之外的話那他的出租者\n\n12\n00:04:24,546 --> 00:04:41,822\n有沒有這個因為場所而有監督管理的責任這件事情如果有的話他就會必須要有付年代賠償的責任我剛剛看到了就家務病房有臺北馬街有三重有北醫還有臺南市立醫院\n\n13\n00:04:42,583 --> 00:05:01,670\n那我希望能不能他們有一些所謂的呃所謂的視訊會議對個案的照顧上面這個會啦這個這個會有嗎這個基本上都會有啦那我們也都那個我們的CDC齁集管署也都陸陸續續在關心這一些病人的一個進展\n\n14\n00:05:03,731 --> 00:05:24,005\n關於小林製藥這個紅麴的部分他2016年開始原料供應然後2021年開始販售那大概兩三年的時間造成這些問題那我們是什麼時候開始注意到我們這個問題應該是在日本的報導出來應該是在今年的年初\n\n15\n00:05:25,855 --> 00:05:53,795\n那現在的作為是什麼現在我們一方面還是收集這個日本那邊的一些資訊一方面的話我們就接受我們國內所以目前臺灣就只有那一件洗腎的個案嗎現在報上了應該是有六件有六例啦他上面寫說很像也不是Straining嘛他說是不明的物體那不明的物體是指什麼現在還不知道所以也不知道日本也不知道也還沒查出來\n\n16\n00:05:54,375 --> 00:06:15,868\n他們現在只是說那個軟毛青梅樹這一個部分的話他們懷疑的那日本現在無死那你有沒有做casestudy有沒有得到資料目前還沒有還是希望你們能夠拿到資料不然我們台灣發生的話你還是可以做一個依據啊可以嗎當然當然那還是講到賠償的問題像這跨海賠償是誰要幫忙\n\n17\n00:06:23,086 --> 00:06:51,275\n日本他們那邊有跟我們聯繫有跟我們聯繫啦就透過政府的IHR看到point跟我們聯繫那也希望說臺灣這邊能夠提供這一些通報出來個案的資料如果導致終身洗腎的話是哪一個窗口跟日本政府來談目前在目前建立的窗口是在IHR也就是CDC這邊CDC這裡對對\n\n18\n00:06:53,596 --> 00:07:10,355\n阿這個有幫忙嗎?有協助了嗎?這件?剛剛他兩天前他才來要資料而已阿我們現在準備把資料所以你目前的六案裡面有幾個人起身?好像不是所有都是起身這我應該再確認一下\n\n19\n00:07:24,568 --> 00:07:24,709\n展現部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n389\t23175\t主席請部長好請薛部長部長辛苦囉好委員好\n24571\t40171\t那我們先就這個寶林茶室的這個問題來看你先唸一下它的英文的名字好嗎那請問它這面上的意思是什麼意思這個是\n44820\t64560\t他是我們南島語系的所謂的拍擠的意思拍打的意思他是因為那個餅他在做的時候是這樣做的可是跟米一點關係都沒有那也就是說你們在取名的時候是完全複製了中國的名字你們很喜歡去中國化那為什麼這個時候又用了中國的字眼呢\n66335\t83488\t當時是怎麼想的當時第一次發現這一個這可能是這一個物質的時候因為它以前是發生在中國所以就引用了中國不過現在大家在唸的時候就很不順口啊我剛剛在聽陳敬惠律委在講的時候\n85089\t112399\t因為這個我們確實也沒有遇過對不對那米酵菌酸它其實跟米一點關係都沒有不過裡面唯一發對的那個是酵就是發酵的時候發生的這個它是在我們在油脂這個環境之下產生的那這次我們看到的這個兩個死亡的案件我看它的年齡很像跟\n113459\t140023\t沒有所謂的一定性他一個是39歲一個是60幾歲那你認為他的underline disease有關係嗎?看起來應該不太有關係那現在這五個加護病房的個案有醫院之間有互相聯繫嗎?因為我們有找他們一起來開過會大概做了這些case本身的一些review所以大概訊息上面應該會有互通\n142093\t160561\t好,就我們這一頁看到一個唐昌浦博士菌,它又叫做唐昌浦博士菌,它又是米酵菌酸,都沒有一個一定的那個名稱,那個唐昌浦是什麼意思?應該是一個植物。是,它是健卵。那為什麼就不用健卵就好了?\n162793\t187014\t所以有時候要想一下然後跟上面那個又不一致啊那到底在講什麼大家都不知道而且這個翻譯的名稱又不是所謂的唐昌甫伯克氏菌都有產生以下菌酸所以有時候在做一些疾病的一些命名或者是規範應該要讓大家知道不然你又是這個又是那個然後也不知道這到底在講什麼我們拿到那個我們個案數\n189343\t205303\t我看這樣一個個案齁就是你從上面到下面看到的關鍵字齁大概都是草規條嘛齁那這個草規條的幾乎上最主要的關鍵字就是草嘛所以它就是有啊所以想到的話是不是這樣子第一個\n206618\t234397\t跟油有關係?跟調味料有關係?當然都不排除啦但是後來我們在現在有比較確定的方向了嗎?現在我們把那一個從寶林茶室這邊收集回來的這些檢體去驗包括醬油、包括油、包括包括這個果條等等這一些大概都沒有驗出來這個所謂的米酵因素那現在是25案了嘛對不對?欸,31\n236778\t262726\t三十一岸那你看剛才都說保險的問題那現在如果說確實有發生傷亡了那完全球場無門我們政府要怎麼辦可能也不至於通通球場無門第一個就是說該負責的除了這一個寶林茶室本身這一個廠商之外的話那他的出租者\n264546\t281822\t有沒有這個因為場所而有監督管理的責任這件事情如果有的話他就會必須要有付年代賠償的責任我剛剛看到了就家務病房有臺北馬街有三重有北醫還有臺南市立醫院\n282583\t301670\t那我希望能不能他們有一些所謂的呃所謂的視訊會議對個案的照顧上面這個會啦這個這個會有嗎這個基本上都會有啦那我們也都那個我們的CDC齁集管署也都陸陸續續在關心這一些病人的一個進展\n303731\t324005\t關於小林製藥這個紅麴的部分他2016年開始原料供應然後2021年開始販售那大概兩三年的時間造成這些問題那我們是什麼時候開始注意到我們這個問題應該是在日本的報導出來應該是在今年的年初\n325855\t353795\t那現在的作為是什麼現在我們一方面還是收集這個日本那邊的一些資訊一方面的話我們就接受我們國內所以目前臺灣就只有那一件洗腎的個案嗎現在報上了應該是有六件有六例啦他上面寫說很像也不是Straining嘛他說是不明的物體那不明的物體是指什麼現在還不知道所以也不知道日本也不知道也還沒查出來\n354375\t375868\t他們現在只是說那個軟毛青梅樹這一個部分的話他們懷疑的那日本現在無死那你有沒有做case study有沒有得到資料目前還沒有還是希望你們能夠拿到資料不然我們台灣發生的話你還是可以做一個依據啊可以嗎當然當然那還是講到賠償的問題像這跨海賠償是誰要幫忙\n383086\t411275\t日本他們那邊有跟我們聯繫有跟我們聯繫啦就透過政府的IHR看到point跟我們聯繫那也希望說臺灣這邊能夠提供這一些通報出來個案的資料如果導致終身洗腎的話是哪一個窗口跟日本政府來談目前在目前建立的窗口是在IHR也就是CDC這邊CDC這裡對對\n413596\t430355\t阿這個有幫忙嗎?有協助了嗎?這件?剛剛他兩天前他才來要資料而已阿我們現在準備把資料所以你目前的六案裡面有幾個人起身?好像不是所有都是起身這我應該再確認一下\n444568\t444709\t展現部長\n","txt":"主席請部長好請薛部長部長辛苦囉好委員好\n那我們先就這個寶林茶室的這個問題來看你先唸一下它的英文的名字好嗎那請問它這面上的意思是什麼意思這個是\n他是我們南島語系的所謂的拍擠的意思拍打的意思他是因為那個餅他在做的時候是這樣做的可是跟米一點關係都沒有那也就是說你們在取名的時候是完全複製了中國的名字你們很喜歡去中國化那為什麼這個時候又用了中國的字眼呢\n當時是怎麼想的當時第一次發現這一個這可能是這一個物質的時候因為它以前是發生在中國所以就引用了中國不過現在大家在唸的時候就很不順口啊我剛剛在聽陳敬惠律委在講的時候\n因為這個我們確實也沒有遇過對不對那米酵菌酸它其實跟米一點關係都沒有不過裡面唯一發對的那個是酵就是發酵的時候發生的這個它是在我們在油脂這個環境之下產生的那這次我們看到的這個兩個死亡的案件我看它的年齡很像跟\n沒有所謂的一定性他一個是39歲一個是60幾歲那你認為他的underline disease有關係嗎?看起來應該不太有關係那現在這五個加護病房的個案有醫院之間有互相聯繫嗎?因為我們有找他們一起來開過會大概做了這些case本身的一些review所以大概訊息上面應該會有互通\n好,就我們這一頁看到一個唐昌浦博士菌,它又叫做唐昌浦博士菌,它又是米酵菌酸,都沒有一個一定的那個名稱,那個唐昌浦是什麼意思?應該是一個植物。是,它是健卵。那為什麼就不用健卵就好了?\n所以有時候要想一下然後跟上面那個又不一致啊那到底在講什麼大家都不知道而且這個翻譯的名稱又不是所謂的唐昌甫伯克氏菌都有產生以下菌酸所以有時候在做一些疾病的一些命名或者是規範應該要讓大家知道不然你又是這個又是那個然後也不知道這到底在講什麼我們拿到那個我們個案數\n我看這樣一個個案齁就是你從上面到下面看到的關鍵字齁大概都是草規條嘛齁那這個草規條的幾乎上最主要的關鍵字就是草嘛所以它就是有啊所以想到的話是不是這樣子第一個\n跟油有關係?跟調味料有關係?當然都不排除啦但是後來我們在現在有比較確定的方向了嗎?現在我們把那一個從寶林茶室這邊收集回來的這些檢體去驗包括醬油、包括油、包括包括這個果條等等這一些大概都沒有驗出來這個所謂的米酵因素那現在是25案了嘛對不對?欸,31\n三十一岸那你看剛才都說保險的問題那現在如果說確實有發生傷亡了那完全球場無門我們政府要怎麼辦可能也不至於通通球場無門第一個就是說該負責的除了這一個寶林茶室本身這一個廠商之外的話那他的出租者\n有沒有這個因為場所而有監督管理的責任這件事情如果有的話他就會必須要有付年代賠償的責任我剛剛看到了就家務病房有臺北馬街有三重有北醫還有臺南市立醫院\n那我希望能不能他們有一些所謂的呃所謂的視訊會議對個案的照顧上面這個會啦這個這個會有嗎這個基本上都會有啦那我們也都那個我們的CDC齁集管署也都陸陸續續在關心這一些病人的一個進展\n關於小林製藥這個紅麴的部分他2016年開始原料供應然後2021年開始販售那大概兩三年的時間造成這些問題那我們是什麼時候開始注意到我們這個問題應該是在日本的報導出來應該是在今年的年初\n那現在的作為是什麼現在我們一方面還是收集這個日本那邊的一些資訊一方面的話我們就接受我們國內所以目前臺灣就只有那一件洗腎的個案嗎現在報上了應該是有六件有六例啦他上面寫說很像也不是Straining嘛他說是不明的物體那不明的物體是指什麼現在還不知道所以也不知道日本也不知道也還沒查出來\n他們現在只是說那個軟毛青梅樹這一個部分的話他們懷疑的那日本現在無死那你有沒有做case study有沒有得到資料目前還沒有還是希望你們能夠拿到資料不然我們台灣發生的話你還是可以做一個依據啊可以嗎當然當然那還是講到賠償的問題像這跨海賠償是誰要幫忙\n日本他們那邊有跟我們聯繫有跟我們聯繫啦就透過政府的IHR看到point跟我們聯繫那也希望說臺灣這邊能夠提供這一些通報出來個案的資料如果導致終身洗腎的話是哪一個窗口跟日本政府來談目前在目前建立的窗口是在IHR也就是CDC這邊CDC這裡對對\n阿這個有幫忙嗎?有協助了嗎?這件?剛剛他兩天前他才來要資料而已阿我們現在準備把資料所以你目前的六案裡面有幾個人起身?好像不是所有都是起身這我應該再確認一下\n展現部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.389 --> 00:23.175\n主席請部長好請薛部長部長辛苦囉好委員好\n\n00:24.571 --> 00:40.171\n那我們先就這個寶林茶室的這個問題來看你先唸一下它的英文的名字好嗎那請問它這面上的意思是什麼意思這個是\n\n00:44.820 --> 01:04.560\n他是我們南島語系的所謂的拍擠的意思拍打的意思他是因為那個餅他在做的時候是這樣做的可是跟米一點關係都沒有那也就是說你們在取名的時候是完全複製了中國的名字你們很喜歡去中國化那為什麼這個時候又用了中國的字眼呢\n\n01:06.335 --> 01:23.488\n當時是怎麼想的當時第一次發現這一個這可能是這一個物質的時候因為它以前是發生在中國所以就引用了中國不過現在大家在唸的時候就很不順口啊我剛剛在聽陳敬惠律委在講的時候\n\n01:25.089 --> 01:52.399\n因為這個我們確實也沒有遇過對不對那米酵菌酸它其實跟米一點關係都沒有不過裡面唯一發對的那個是酵就是發酵的時候發生的這個它是在我們在油脂這個環境之下產生的那這次我們看到的這個兩個死亡的案件我看它的年齡很像跟\n\n01:53.459 --> 02:20.023\n沒有所謂的一定性他一個是39歲一個是60幾歲那你認為他的underlinedisease有關係嗎?看起來應該不太有關係那現在這五個加護病房的個案有醫院之間有互相聯繫嗎?因為我們有找他們一起來開過會大概做了這些case本身的一些review所以大概訊息上面應該會有互通\n\n02:22.093 --> 02:40.561\n好,就我們這一頁看到一個唐昌浦博士菌,它又叫做唐昌浦博士菌,它又是米酵菌酸,都沒有一個一定的那個名稱,那個唐昌浦是什麼意思?應該是一個植物。是,它是健卵。那為什麼就不用健卵就好了?\n\n02:42.793 --> 03:07.014\n所以有時候要想一下然後跟上面那個又不一致啊那到底在講什麼大家都不知道而且這個翻譯的名稱又不是所謂的唐昌甫伯克氏菌都有產生以下菌酸所以有時候在做一些疾病的一些命名或者是規範應該要讓大家知道不然你又是這個又是那個然後也不知道這到底在講什麼我們拿到那個我們個案數\n\n03:09.343 --> 03:25.303\n我看這樣一個個案齁就是你從上面到下面看到的關鍵字齁大概都是草規條嘛齁那這個草規條的幾乎上最主要的關鍵字就是草嘛所以它就是有啊所以想到的話是不是這樣子第一個\n\n03:26.618 --> 03:54.397\n跟油有關係?跟調味料有關係?當然都不排除啦但是後來我們在現在有比較確定的方向了嗎?現在我們把那一個從寶林茶室這邊收集回來的這些檢體去驗包括醬油、包括油、包括包括這個果條等等這一些大概都沒有驗出來這個所謂的米酵因素那現在是25案了嘛對不對?欸,31\n\n03:56.778 --> 04:22.726\n三十一岸那你看剛才都說保險的問題那現在如果說確實有發生傷亡了那完全球場無門我們政府要怎麼辦可能也不至於通通球場無門第一個就是說該負責的除了這一個寶林茶室本身這一個廠商之外的話那他的出租者\n\n04:24.546 --> 04:41.822\n有沒有這個因為場所而有監督管理的責任這件事情如果有的話他就會必須要有付年代賠償的責任我剛剛看到了就家務病房有臺北馬街有三重有北醫還有臺南市立醫院\n\n04:42.583 --> 05:01.670\n那我希望能不能他們有一些所謂的呃所謂的視訊會議對個案的照顧上面這個會啦這個這個會有嗎這個基本上都會有啦那我們也都那個我們的CDC齁集管署也都陸陸續續在關心這一些病人的一個進展\n\n05:03.731 --> 05:24.005\n關於小林製藥這個紅麴的部分他2016年開始原料供應然後2021年開始販售那大概兩三年的時間造成這些問題那我們是什麼時候開始注意到我們這個問題應該是在日本的報導出來應該是在今年的年初\n\n05:25.855 --> 05:53.795\n那現在的作為是什麼現在我們一方面還是收集這個日本那邊的一些資訊一方面的話我們就接受我們國內所以目前臺灣就只有那一件洗腎的個案嗎現在報上了應該是有六件有六例啦他上面寫說很像也不是Straining嘛他說是不明的物體那不明的物體是指什麼現在還不知道所以也不知道日本也不知道也還沒查出來\n\n05:54.375 --> 06:15.868\n他們現在只是說那個軟毛青梅樹這一個部分的話他們懷疑的那日本現在無死那你有沒有做casestudy有沒有得到資料目前還沒有還是希望你們能夠拿到資料不然我們台灣發生的話你還是可以做一個依據啊可以嗎當然當然那還是講到賠償的問題像這跨海賠償是誰要幫忙\n\n06:23.086 --> 06:51.275\n日本他們那邊有跟我們聯繫有跟我們聯繫啦就透過政府的IHR看到point跟我們聯繫那也希望說臺灣這邊能夠提供這一些通報出來個案的資料如果導致終身洗腎的話是哪一個窗口跟日本政府來談目前在目前建立的窗口是在IHR也就是CDC這邊CDC這裡對對\n\n06:53.596 --> 07:10.355\n阿這個有幫忙嗎?有協助了嗎?這件?剛剛他兩天前他才來要資料而已阿我們現在準備把資料所以你目前的六案裡面有幾個人起身?好像不是所有都是起身這我應該再確認一下\n\n07:24.568 --> 07:24.709\n展現部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.389,"end":23.175,"text":"主席請部長好請薛部長部長辛苦囉好委員好"},{"start":24.571,"end":40.171,"text":"那我們先就這個寶林茶室的這個問題來看你先唸一下它的英文的名字好嗎那請問它這面上的意思是什麼意思這個是"},{"start":44.82,"end":64.56,"text":"他是我們南島語系的所謂的拍擠的意思拍打的意思他是因為那個餅他在做的時候是這樣做的可是跟米一點關係都沒有那也就是說你們在取名的時候是完全複製了中國的名字你們很喜歡去中國化那為什麼這個時候又用了中國的字眼呢"},{"start":66.335,"end":83.488,"text":"當時是怎麼想的當時第一次發現這一個這可能是這一個物質的時候因為它以前是發生在中國所以就引用了中國不過現在大家在唸的時候就很不順口啊我剛剛在聽陳敬惠律委在講的時候"},{"start":85.089,"end":112.399,"text":"因為這個我們確實也沒有遇過對不對那米酵菌酸它其實跟米一點關係都沒有不過裡面唯一發對的那個是酵就是發酵的時候發生的這個它是在我們在油脂這個環境之下產生的那這次我們看到的這個兩個死亡的案件我看它的年齡很像跟"},{"start":113.459,"end":140.023,"text":"沒有所謂的一定性他一個是39歲一個是60幾歲那你認為他的underline disease有關係嗎?看起來應該不太有關係那現在這五個加護病房的個案有醫院之間有互相聯繫嗎?因為我們有找他們一起來開過會大概做了這些case本身的一些review所以大概訊息上面應該會有互通"},{"start":142.093,"end":160.561,"text":"好,就我們這一頁看到一個唐昌浦博士菌,它又叫做唐昌浦博士菌,它又是米酵菌酸,都沒有一個一定的那個名稱,那個唐昌浦是什麼意思?應該是一個植物。是,它是健卵。那為什麼就不用健卵就好了?"},{"start":162.793,"end":187.014,"text":"所以有時候要想一下然後跟上面那個又不一致啊那到底在講什麼大家都不知道而且這個翻譯的名稱又不是所謂的唐昌甫伯克氏菌都有產生以下菌酸所以有時候在做一些疾病的一些命名或者是規範應該要讓大家知道不然你又是這個又是那個然後也不知道這到底在講什麼我們拿到那個我們個案數"},{"start":189.343,"end":205.303,"text":"我看這樣一個個案齁就是你從上面到下面看到的關鍵字齁大概都是草規條嘛齁那這個草規條的幾乎上最主要的關鍵字就是草嘛所以它就是有啊所以想到的話是不是這樣子第一個"},{"start":206.618,"end":234.397,"text":"跟油有關係?跟調味料有關係?當然都不排除啦但是後來我們在現在有比較確定的方向了嗎?現在我們把那一個從寶林茶室這邊收集回來的這些檢體去驗包括醬油、包括油、包括包括這個果條等等這一些大概都沒有驗出來這個所謂的米酵因素那現在是25案了嘛對不對?欸,31"},{"start":236.778,"end":262.726,"text":"三十一岸那你看剛才都說保險的問題那現在如果說確實有發生傷亡了那完全球場無門我們政府要怎麼辦可能也不至於通通球場無門第一個就是說該負責的除了這一個寶林茶室本身這一個廠商之外的話那他的出租者"},{"start":264.546,"end":281.822,"text":"有沒有這個因為場所而有監督管理的責任這件事情如果有的話他就會必須要有付年代賠償的責任我剛剛看到了就家務病房有臺北馬街有三重有北醫還有臺南市立醫院"},{"start":282.583,"end":301.67,"text":"那我希望能不能他們有一些所謂的呃所謂的視訊會議對個案的照顧上面這個會啦這個這個會有嗎這個基本上都會有啦那我們也都那個我們的CDC齁集管署也都陸陸續續在關心這一些病人的一個進展"},{"start":303.731,"end":324.005,"text":"關於小林製藥這個紅麴的部分他2016年開始原料供應然後2021年開始販售那大概兩三年的時間造成這些問題那我們是什麼時候開始注意到我們這個問題應該是在日本的報導出來應該是在今年的年初"},{"start":325.855,"end":353.795,"text":"那現在的作為是什麼現在我們一方面還是收集這個日本那邊的一些資訊一方面的話我們就接受我們國內所以目前臺灣就只有那一件洗腎的個案嗎現在報上了應該是有六件有六例啦他上面寫說很像也不是Straining嘛他說是不明的物體那不明的物體是指什麼現在還不知道所以也不知道日本也不知道也還沒查出來"},{"start":354.375,"end":375.868,"text":"他們現在只是說那個軟毛青梅樹這一個部分的話他們懷疑的那日本現在無死那你有沒有做case study有沒有得到資料目前還沒有還是希望你們能夠拿到資料不然我們台灣發生的話你還是可以做一個依據啊可以嗎當然當然那還是講到賠償的問題像這跨海賠償是誰要幫忙"},{"start":383.086,"end":411.275,"text":"日本他們那邊有跟我們聯繫有跟我們聯繫啦就透過政府的IHR看到point跟我們聯繫那也希望說臺灣這邊能夠提供這一些通報出來個案的資料如果導致終身洗腎的話是哪一個窗口跟日本政府來談目前在目前建立的窗口是在IHR也就是CDC這邊CDC這裡對對"},{"start":413.596,"end":430.355,"text":"阿這個有幫忙嗎?有協助了嗎?這件?剛剛他兩天前他才來要資料而已阿我們現在準備把資料所以你目前的六案裡面有幾個人起身?好像不是所有都是起身這我應該再確認一下"},{"start":444.568,"end":444.709,"text":"展現部長"}]}}}}