{"id":150772,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150772","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c037d549ecea941f389e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a6d1fda4089bab4e905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:38:38 - 11:51:47","影片長度":"00:13:09","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":789,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:51:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:38:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":608,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時38分）謝謝主席，有請周萬來秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：秘書長、所有列席的同仁們，大家早安，主席也辛苦了。國會改革缺一不可，程序正義、合憲及合規、權責相符，我想周秘書長應當都會同意缺一不可。我非常同意剛剛傅崐萁總召所說的，國會改革一定要成功，但是國會改革要走在對的方向，國會改革不是國會擴權，國會有權就要有責，民主進步黨絕對支持國會改革，但是要在正確的方向，在合憲合規的方向，在權責相符的方向。","秘書長，其實這個問題也不用就教於您，我們只要有基本的公民素養都知道，法律位階的基本概念就是簡報上這個金三角，最下面是行政命令，中間是法律，上面是憲法，換言之，任何的修法不能夠凌駕憲法。至於右邊這個圖，藍色的線就是現在國民黨跟民眾黨藍白兩黨的版本，他們的國會改革是權大於責，甚至是一味地擴權；綠色的線是民主進步黨的版本，我們力求權責相符，當我們給了國會更大的權力，我們就要要求立委自身的問責跟課責，問政監督的量能要予以提升。所以首先我要再次強調民進黨國會改革的幾個重大立場：第一個，國會改革不是兒戲，不能競相喊價，重大的法案召開公聽會，這個程序正義我們一定要捍衛；第二個立場，就如同剛剛的金字塔，該修憲就修憲，修法是不能凌駕憲法的；第三個，如果在野黨強行以多數來通過違憲的國會改革法案，那麼民進黨將會聲請憲法法庭予以釋憲，進行快速的處分來暫緩施行，過去也有這樣的例子，這是民進黨的三大立場。","秘書長在這裡，您一定印象非常深刻，歷屆的修憲在立法院，公聽會是開好開滿的，甚至是藍綠執政的時候都一樣。我今天舉出了3屆，第10屆針對修憲的議案開了2場公聽會，而第10屆的公聽會我人就在國會現場，針對三權分立、是不是要廢考監，這是一個憲政層級的討論，而憲政層級的討論是不是要三權分立，還是維持五權分立，它就跟國會的職能息息相關；第8屆開了10場公聽會，在修憲的時候，同樣的，基於五權分立要不要改成三權分立，這也跟國會的職權息息相關，所以有10場公聽會，那個時候是國民黨居國會多數。第5屆修憲，針對是不是要實行單一選區、是不是要實行立委減半，開了6場公聽會，同樣是攸關憲政層級，所以說國會改革就是憲政配套之一，秘書長，你同意我的意思吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：公聽會本身是由委員會……"],["吳委員思瑤：回答我的問題，國會改革與憲政相關，它是必要的配套，要一併考量，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：公聽會的舉行，並不一定是說必要不必要，按議題，當然由委員會自己來裁定。"],["吳委員思瑤：那您覺得我們第5屆、第8屆、第10屆開了這麼多場公聽會，是不是能夠有利於匯聚很多的修憲共識？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然，公聽會的舉辦本來就是要有利害關係人，有學者專家來相聚。"],["吳委員思瑤：匯聚更多的共識嘛！您在國會現場多年，思瑤我從20歲在立法院擔任助理開始，我也同樣在國會現場，所以說國會改革就是憲政制度的配套之一，過去修憲我們嚴謹地透過公聽會擴大了民間的參與，擴大了專業的參與，我相信這一次如果能夠擴大這樣的參與是更好的。","公聽會是有利於法案審議，有利於匯聚社會共識，我要再次說明，這一次我們為什麼需要公聽會？第一個，因為國會改革的法案有夠多！目前國民黨、民眾黨提了20案，民進黨的黨版進來，再加上個別委員的立場，法案進來可能有二、三十案，法案多的時候，就需要花多一點時間來匯聚共識；第二個，國會改革的層面廣，當然涉及修憲，我就不再贅述；第三個，正因為多年來社會沒有共識，今天一整個上午，很多在野黨的委員說國會改革講了20年，不用再討論了，直接修就好！天啊！正因為20年的時間，社會沒有高度的共識，我們更需要透過社會的參與、專業的參與來凝聚社會共識，為什麼國民黨害怕公聽會呢？為什麼國民黨害怕社會參與呢？為什麼國民黨害怕專業的專家學者一起參與討論呢？難道國民黨害怕公聽會是因為他們禁不起社會檢驗的版本，在公聽會的討論之下會一一現形嗎？我相信不是，所以有公聽會，why not？任何一個爭議法案有公聽會就是幫立法院一把，社會共識可以讓我們更有利地走在一起。","再來，屆期不連續，周萬來老師，您的書寫很多，這是國會運作的ABC，屆期不連續，因為新國會有新民意，新國會有新民意！更何況本屆的新國會裡頭有很多的新民意，就像在座的翁曉玲委員，她是法學博士，所以有新民意，有新的專業，屆期不連續，任何的法案就應當重新來討論，這就是您書上所說的嘛！新民意就是讓新的議案有重新討論、界定的機會，對不對？所以為什麼國民黨委員一直在說過去討論了幾十年，這一切就不用再討論了？這完全推翻了屆期不連續的國會運作原理，秘書長，您一直點頭如搗蒜，您接受我的看法。","我要很嚴正地說，很多國民黨、民眾黨的委員一直拿民進黨2012或2016的版本來檢視今天2024民進黨的版本，難道2024的此時此刻，任何一個生活在2024這一個時空的人，一定要對於過去的主張照單全收嗎？如果是這樣的話，社會不需要進步，修法就是木乃伊就好了，修法不是修文化資產、復舊如舊耶！為什麼2016民進黨的國會改革版本沒有強行通過？民進黨是國會多數，正因為社會沒有共識，民進黨願意花時間再跟社會對話，所以即使在民進黨是國會多數的時候，2016民進黨的黨版國會改革沒有強渡關山，我要把這樣一個歷史的經驗分享給國民黨的委員。","第二個問題，2016跟2024今天的國會改革版本不同，不行嗎？我要再次說，我這一次是民進黨的國會改革小組召集人，當我們在審議、在討論法案的時候，我們很真切地回到過去的版本，確實有違憲之虞，確實沒有社會足夠的支持，所以這一次我們把版本重新檢視，沒有全盤照收，因為社會在與時俱進，我們的法案當然要與時俱進，這也是屆期不連續很重要的一個精神。所以秘書長，我在這裡要衡平地說，如果承認過去的主張，今天此時此刻的時空背景改變了，我們沒有勇敢去修正它的話，我認為才愧對良心。我作為2024民進黨黨版的國會改革法案召集人，我要說，也許5年後、10年後，2035年再回來看2024年民進黨的國會改革版本，都還有很大的改善空間，因為時代會改變嘛！所以我在這裡要告訴所有國民黨、民眾黨的委員，不要給人家扣帽子，當年民進黨這樣講，今年你就一定要照單全收，那就是不進步，那就是一個法案的木乃伊而已。","如果同一標準，過去的主張不能改，國民黨更是自打嘴巴啊！針對總統到立法院即問即答這件事情，2015的馬英九總統辦公室說總統到國會備詢是違反憲法；王金平院長2015年說只要總統來國會接受備詢就是違憲，所以主張不是不能改啊！不能去脈絡化啊！如果國民黨說民進黨過去的版本就一定要捍守到底，那國民黨看看當年你們自己說總統來國會備詢即問即答是違憲的，你們的馬英九前總統這麼說，你們的王金平前院長這麼說。更何況國民黨的智庫針對總統到國會能不能夠即問即答且常態化地備詢，都說這是違憲，這是國際的笑話。","我最後一點點時間，謝謝主席多給我1分鐘。國會改革不是國會擴權，權責相符才是真改革，我們的法案今天會送出，我也請立法院作為幕僚機關好好地來研議、研究民進黨的版本，有不好的地方我們接受，可以在審查的過程再做討論，因為這就是國會存在的意義嘛！透過討論，透過跟社會的對話，透過專業的參與，透過不同政黨的委員集思廣益，我們才能夠讓國會真正地改革前進啊！所以我跟您預告，我們的版本裡頭有非常多是國會的自我要求，我們唯有提升自我的問政量能，我們唯有協助立法院給予更多的資源，幫助我們的法制局跟預算中心有更鬆綁的人事可以去聘任外界更專業的人員進來，我們的問政量能才能提升。國會需要跟上國際，我們需要新的資通安全處，國會要有資安長，才能夠讓國會所有資訊安全的防火牆建立得更完善。我相信秘書長都會支持，打造一個權責相符的專業國會，幫國會議員問政必要的幕僚功能提升，這是幫立法院一把，幫國家一把，您都支持吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝，我會把你們的版本交給法制局一併去研議。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，所以法制局跟預算中心正是我們需要大大提升他們的相關量能跟給予資源。","我最後的結論是，任何的法案在慎重的討論過程當中，我們就是對話，而不是一再地傾斜於擴權的改革，我想社會不會支持。如果國會不自我要求，一味地自我擴權，那這不是一個國會對於人民擺出要改革的起手式，這不會是一個好的典範，大家三思。我時間到了，謝謝秘書長，謝謝大家。"],["主席：下一位請林思銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","劉建國"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊\n瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院\n職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四\n條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條\n之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五\n條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中\n華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案；\n三、審查(一)委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(三)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案【僅進\n行詢答】","agenda_id":"1132301_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"150772","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150772","tool":"pyannote","id":"150772-pyannote"},"job_id":"CZe5dEpafyDKBYZ4","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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335.898, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 335.898, \"end\": 336.018, \"score\": 0.694}, {\"word\": \"革\", \"start\": 336.018, \"end\": 336.038, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 336.038, \"end\": 336.118, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 336.118, \"end\": 336.138, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 336.138, \"end\": 336.218, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 336.218, \"end\": 336.238, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 336.238, \"end\": 336.338, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 336.338, \"end\": 336.358, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 336.358, \"end\": 336.418, \"score\": 0.48}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 336.418, \"end\": 336.438, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 336.438, \"end\": 336.998, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 336.998, \"end\": 337.118, \"score\": 0.652}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 337.118, \"end\": 337.138, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 343.103, \"end\": 344.564, \"text\": \"為什麼國民黨害怕公聽會呢?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 343.103, \"end\": 343.363, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 343.363, \"end\": 343.383, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 343.383, \"end\": 344.364, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"怕\", \"start\": 344.364, \"end\": 344.524, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 344.524, \"end\": 344.544, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 344.544, \"end\": 344.564, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 360.536, \"end\": 376.06, \"text\": \"為什麼國民黨害怕社會參與呢?為什麼國民黨害怕專業界的專家學者一起參與討論呢?難道國民黨害怕公聽會是因為他們經不起社會檢驗的版本在公聽會的討論之下會一一現形嗎?我相信不是。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 360.536, \"end\": 360.976, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 360.976, \"end\": 361.316, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 361.316, \"end\": 361.576, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"怕\", \"start\": 361.576, \"end\": 361.856, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 361.856, \"end\": 362.937, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"與\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 362.937, \"end\": 364.157, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 364.157, \"end\": 364.637, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 364.637, \"end\": 365.077, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 365.077, \"end\": 365.417, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"怕\", \"start\": 365.417, \"end\": 366.337, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": 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\"怕\", \"start\": 371.379, \"end\": 371.599, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 371.599, \"end\": 372.119, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 372.119, \"end\": 372.239, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 372.239, \"end\": 372.419, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 372.419, \"end\": 373.059, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 373.059, \"end\": 373.299, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 373.299, \"end\": 373.559, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 373.559, \"end\": 374.379, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"驗\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 374.379, \"end\": 374.499, \"score\": 0.592}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 374.499, \"end\": 374.799, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 374.799, \"end\": 375.42, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 375.42, 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376.04, \"end\": 376.06, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 381.545, \"end\": 393.939, \"text\": \"所以有公聽會Why not?任何一個爭議法案有公聽會就是幫立法院一把社會共識可以讓我們更有利的走在一起下一頁借其不連續\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 381.545, \"end\": 381.765, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 381.765, \"end\": 382.586, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 382.586, \"end\": 382.787, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 382.787, \"end\": 382.967, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"W\", \"start\": 382.967, \"end\": 383.207, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"h\", \"start\": 383.207, \"end\": 383.708, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"y\", \"start\": 383.708, \"end\": 383.908, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"n\", \"start\": 383.908, \"end\": 384.088, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"o\", \"start\": 384.088, \"end\": 384.368, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"t\", \"start\": 384.368, \"end\": 384.969, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 389.194, \"end\": 389.374, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 389.374, \"end\": 390.095, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 390.095, \"end\": 390.395, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 390.395, \"end\": 390.916, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"識\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 390.916, \"end\": 391.036, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 391.036, \"end\": 391.296, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 391.296, \"end\": 391.677, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 391.677, \"end\": 391.857, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 391.857, \"end\": 392.017, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 392.017, \"end\": 392.157, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 392.157, \"end\": 392.317, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"走\", \"start\": 392.317, \"end\": 392.457, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 392.457, \"end\": 392.638, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 392.638, \"end\": 392.798, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 392.798, \"end\": 393.559, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 393.559, \"end\": 393.699, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 393.699, \"end\": 393.759, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"頁\"}, {\"word\": \"借\", \"start\": 393.759, \"end\": 393.899, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 393.899, \"end\": 393.919, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 393.919, \"end\": 393.939, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}]}, {\"start\": 397.85, \"end\": 416.625, \"text\": \"周恩來老師您的書寫很多這是國會運作的ABC借其不連續因為新國會有新名義因為新國會有新名義更何況本屆的新國會裡頭有很多的新名義就像我們在座的翁小林委員他是法學博士\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"周\", \"start\": 397.85, \"end\": 397.97, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"恩\", \"start\": 397.97, \"end\": 398.29, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"老\", \"start\": 398.29, \"end\": 398.791, \"score\": 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\"end\": 403.535, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 403.535, \"end\": 404.335, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 404.335, \"end\": 404.856, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 404.856, \"end\": 405.376, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 405.376, \"end\": 405.556, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 405.556, \"end\": 405.736, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 405.736, \"end\": 406.877, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 406.877, \"end\": 407.238, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 407.238, \"end\": 407.718, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 407.718, \"end\": 407.878, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 407.878, \"end\": 408.078, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 408.078, \"end\": 408.419, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 408.419, \"end\": 408.579, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 408.579, \"end\": 409.219, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 409.219, \"end\": 409.72, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"屆\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 409.72, \"end\": 409.9, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 409.9, \"end\": 410.721, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"頭\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 410.721, \"end\": 410.941, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 410.941, \"end\": 411.261, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 411.261, \"end\": 411.541, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 411.541, \"end\": 411.781, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 411.781, \"end\": 412.022, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 412.022, \"end\": 412.642, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": 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00:01:01,419\n國會改革不是國會擴權國會有權就要有責民主進步黨絕對支持國會改革但是要在正確的方向在合憲合規的方向在權責相輔的方向下一頁我想秘書長\n\n4\n00:01:04,915 --> 00:01:23,538\n其實這個問題也不用就教於您了我們只要有基本的公民素養都知道這個法律未接的基本概念就是這個金三角最下面是行政命令中間是法律上面是憲法換言之任何的修法不能夠凌駕憲法\n\n5\n00:01:24,844 --> 00:01:39,243\n而右邊這個圖呢也就是藍色的線就是國民黨現在跟民眾黨藍白兩黨的版本他們的國會改革是權大於責甚至就是一味的擴權\n\n6\n00:01:40,764 --> 00:02:04,056\n綠色的線是民主進步黨的版本我們力求權責相符當我們給了國會更大的權力我們就要要求立委自身的問責跟克責問政監督的量能要予以提升所以首先我要先再次強調民進黨國會改革的幾個重大立場\n\n7\n00:02:05,477 --> 00:02:24,094\n國會改革不是兒戲不能競相喊架重大的法案召開公聽會這個程序正義我們一定要捍衛第二個立場就如同剛剛這個金字塔該修憲就修憲修法是不能凌駕憲法的第三個\n\n8\n00:02:25,583 --> 00:02:42,558\n如果在野黨強行以多數來通過違憲的國會改革法案,那民進黨將會申請我們的憲法法庭予以釋憲,進行快速的處分來暫緩施行。過去也有這樣的例子。這是民進黨的三大立場下頁。\n\n9\n00:02:44,045 --> 00:02:53,119\n民眾黨在這裡喔你一定非常的印象深刻歷屆的修憲在立法院公聽會是開好開滿的甚至是藍綠執政的時候都一樣\n\n10\n00:02:59,548 --> 00:03:06,112\n我今天舉出了三屆第十屆針對修憲的議案開了兩場公聽會而第十屆的公聽會我仍舊在這個國會現場針對三權分立是不是要廢考監這是一個憲政層級的討論而憲政層級的討論是不是要三權分立還是維持五權分立它就跟國會的職能息息相關\n\n11\n00:03:24,324 --> 00:03:39,041\n第8屆開了10場的公聽會在修憲的時候他同樣的基於五權分立要不要改成三權分立這也跟國會的職權息息相關所以有10場的公聽會那個時候是國民黨基於國會多數\n\n12\n00:03:40,442 --> 00:03:57,777\n第五屆修憲是不是要實行單一選區是不是要實行我們立委的檢辦開了六場公聽會這同樣是攸關憲政層級所以說國會改革就是憲政配套之一律師王你同意我的意思吧\n\n13\n00:03:59,056 --> 00:04:23,228\n公聽會本身是由委員（回答我的問題博會改革跟憲政相關他是必要的配套要一併的考完公聽會的舉行並不一定是說會必要不必要你按一個議題當然由委員會自己來改變您覺得我們第5屆第8屆第10屆開了這麼多場公聽會是不是能夠有利於匯聚我們很多的修憲共識公聽會\n\n14\n00:04:26,585 --> 00:04:31,326\n國會改革就是憲政制度的配套之一過去修憲我們嚴謹的透過公聽會擴大了民間的參與擴大的專業的參與我相信這一次我們如果能夠擴大這樣的參與是更好的下一頁\n\n15\n00:04:55,570 --> 00:05:09,669\n所以說公聽會是有利於法案審議有利於匯聚社會共識我要再次說明這一次我們為什麼需要公聽會因為國會改革的法案有夠多目前國民黨民眾黨提了20案民進黨的黨版進來個別委員的立場\n\n16\n00:05:13,954 --> 00:05:37,138\n法案進來可能有二、三十案法案多的時候就需要花多一點時間來彙具共識第二個國會改革的層面廣當然涉及修憲我就不再贅述第三點正因為多年來社會沒有共識今天一整個上午很多在野黨的委員說國會改革講了20年不用再討論了直接修就好\n\n17\n00:05:43,103 --> 00:05:44,564\n為什麼國民黨害怕公聽會呢?\n\n18\n00:06:00,536 --> 00:06:16,060\n為什麼國民黨害怕社會參與呢?為什麼國民黨害怕專業界的專家學者一起參與討論呢?難道國民黨害怕公聽會是因為他們經不起社會檢驗的版本在公聽會的討論之下會一一現形嗎?我相信不是。\n\n19\n00:06:21,545 --> 00:06:33,939\n所以有公聽會Whynot?任何一個爭議法案有公聽會就是幫立法院一把社會共識可以讓我們更有利的走在一起下一頁借其不連續\n\n20\n00:06:37,850 --> 00:06:56,625\n周恩來老師您的書寫很多這是國會運作的ABC借其不連續因為新國會有新名義因為新國會有新名義更何況本屆的新國會裡頭有很多的新名義就像我們在座的翁小林委員他是法學博士\n\n21\n00:06:57,955 --> 00:07:11,950\n所以有新民意有新的專業藉其不連續任何的法案就應當重新來討論。這就是您書上所說的嘛。新民意就是讓新的議案有重新討論界定的機會。對不對?\n\n22\n00:07:13,732 --> 00:07:32,117\n所以為什麼國民黨委員一直在說過去討論了幾十年了這一切就不用再討論了就完全推翻了藉其不連續的國會運作原理秘書長您一直點頭如倒算您接受我的看法下一頁我要很嚴正的說\n\n23\n00:07:33,530 --> 00:08:00,547\n很多國民黨民眾黨的委員一直拿民進黨2012或2016的版本來檢視今天2024民進黨的版本難道2024的此時此刻任何一個人生活在這一個時空2024的人一定要對於過去的主張照單全收嗎?如果是這樣的話社會不需要進步修法就是木乃伊就好了修法不是修文化資產欸復旧如舊欸\n\n24\n00:08:03,903 --> 00:08:20,580\n為什麼2016民進黨的國會改革版本沒有強行通過民進黨是國會多數正因為社會沒有共識民進黨願意花時間在跟社會對話所以在民進黨即使是國會多數的時候2016民進黨的黨版國會改革沒有強度關山我要把這樣一個歷史的經驗分享給國民黨的委員\n\n25\n00:08:28,206 --> 00:08:55,561\n第二個問題2016跟2024今天的國會改革版本不同不行嗎我要再次說我這一次是民進黨的國會改革小組的召集人當我們在審議在討論法案的時候我們很真切的回到過去的版本確實有違憲之餘確實沒有社會足夠的支持所以這一次我們把版本重新檢視\n\n26\n00:08:57,242 --> 00:09:16,195\n沒有全盤照收因為社會在與時俱進我們的法案當然要與時俱進這也是借其不連續很重要的一個精神所以秘書長我在這裡要橫平的說如果承認過去的主張今天此時此刻的時空背景改變了\n\n27\n00:09:17,645 --> 00:09:39,677\n我們沒有勇敢去修正的話我認為才愧對良心我作為2024民進黨黨版的國會改革法案的召集人我要說也許五年後十年後那個時候2035年再回來開2024年的民進黨的國會改革版本都還有很大改善的空間因為時代會改變嘛\n\n28\n00:09:40,612 --> 00:09:55,224\n所以我在這裡要告訴所有的國民黨民眾黨的委員不要給人家扣帽子當年民進黨這樣講今年你就一定要照單全收那就是一個不進步那就是一個法案的木乃伊而已下一頁\n\n29\n00:09:56,434 --> 00:10:14,194\n所以如果同一標準過去的主張不能改國民黨更是自打嘴巴啊針對總統到立法院急問急答這件事情2015的馬英九辦公室總統辦公室說總統到國會被巡視違反憲法我們的王金平院長2015年說\n\n30\n00:10:15,936 --> 00:10:33,300\n只要總統來國會接受備詢就是違憲所以主張不是不能改啊不能去脈絡化啊如果國民黨說民進黨過去的版本就一定要汗手到底那國民黨看看當年你們自己說總統來國會備詢急問急答是違憲的你們的馬英九前總統這麼說你們的王金平前院長這麼說下一頁\n\n31\n00:10:41,562 --> 00:10:52,679\n更何況國民黨的智庫針對總統到國會能不能夠急問急答而且常態化的備詢都說這是違憲這是國際的笑話好下一頁\n\n32\n00:10:57,466 --> 00:11:19,144\n我最後一點點時間謝謝主席多給我一分鐘國會改革不是國會擴權權責相符才是真改革我們的法案今天會送出我也請立法院作為幕僚機關好好的來研議研究民進黨的版本有不好的地方我們接受可以在審查的過程再做討論因為這就是國會存在的意義嘛\n\n33\n00:11:23,067 --> 00:11:39,194\n透過討論透過對於社會的對話透過專業的參與透過不同政黨的委員集思廣益我們才能讓國會真正的改革前進啊所以我跟您預告我們的版本裡頭有非常多是國會的自我要求\n\n34\n00:11:40,134 --> 00:11:53,429\n我們唯有提升自我的問政量能我們唯有協助立法院給予更多的資源幫助我們的法治局跟預算中心有更鬆綁的人士可以去聘任外界更專業的人員進來我們的問政量能才能提升\n\n35\n00:11:58,755 --> 00:12:11,513\n國會需要跟上國際我們需要新的資通安全處國會要有資安長才能夠讓國會的所有資訊安全的防火牆建立得更完善我相信秘書長都會支持\n\n36\n00:12:13,576 --> 00:12:32,111\n打造一個權責相符的專業國會幫國會議員的問政的必要的幕僚功能提升這是幫立法院一把幫國家一把您都支持吧謝謝我會把你們版本交給法治局一併去研議\n\n37\n00:12:33,038 --> 00:12:56,217\n所以法治局跟預算中心正是我們需要大大提升他們的相關量能跟給予資源所以我最後的結論就是任何的法案在慎重的討論過程當中我們就是對話而不是一再的傾斜於擴權的改革我想社會不會支持如果國會不自我要求一味的自我擴權\n\n38\n00:12:57,518 --> 00:12:57,699\n委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9003\t10227\t謝謝主席 有請周萬來秘書長好 請秘書長\n15694\t17355\t國會改革一定要成功但是國會改革要走在對的方向\n44152\t61419\t國會改革不是國會擴權國會有權就要有責民主進步黨絕對支持國會改革但是要在正確的方向在合憲合規的方向在權責相輔的方向下一頁我想秘書長\n64915\t83538\t其實這個問題也不用就教於您了我們只要有基本的公民素養都知道這個法律未接的基本概念就是這個金三角最下面是行政命令中間是法律上面是憲法換言之任何的修法不能夠凌駕憲法\n84844\t99243\t而右邊這個圖呢也就是藍色的線就是國民黨現在跟民眾黨藍白兩黨的版本他們的國會改革是權大於責甚至就是一味的擴權\n100764\t124056\t綠色的線是民主進步黨的版本我們力求權責相符當我們給了國會更大的權力我們就要要求立委自身的問責跟克責問政監督的量能要予以提升所以首先我要先再次強調民進黨國會改革的幾個重大立場\n125477\t144094\t國會改革不是兒戲不能競相喊架重大的法案召開公聽會這個程序正義我們一定要捍衛第二個立場就如同剛剛這個金字塔該修憲就修憲修法是不能凌駕憲法的第三個\n145583\t162558\t如果在野黨強行以多數來通過違憲的國會改革法案,那民進黨將會申請我們的憲法法庭予以釋憲,進行快速的處分來暫緩施行。過去也有這樣的例子。這是民進黨的三大立場下頁。\n164045\t173119\t民眾黨在這裡喔你一定非常的印象深刻歷屆的修憲在立法院公聽會是開好開滿的甚至是藍綠執政的時候都一樣\n179548\t186112\t我今天舉出了三屆第十屆針對修憲的議案開了兩場公聽會而第十屆的公聽會我仍舊在這個國會現場針對三權分立是不是要廢考監這是一個憲政層級的討論而憲政層級的討論是不是要三權分立還是維持五權分立它就跟國會的職能息息相關\n204324\t219041\t第8屆開了10場的公聽會在修憲的時候他同樣的基於五權分立要不要改成三權分立這也跟國會的職權息息相關所以有10場的公聽會那個時候是國民黨基於國會多數\n220442\t237777\t第五屆修憲是不是要實行單一選區是不是要實行我們立委的檢辦開了六場公聽會這同樣是攸關憲政層級所以說國會改革就是憲政配套之一律師王你同意我的意思吧\n239056\t263228\t公聽會本身是由委員（回答我的問題博會改革跟憲政相關他是必要的配套要一併的考完公聽會的舉行並不一定是說會必要不必要你按一個議題當然由委員會自己來改變您覺得我們第5屆第8屆第10屆開了這麼多場公聽會是不是能夠有利於匯聚我們很多的修憲共識公聽會\n266585\t271326\t國會改革就是憲政制度的配套之一過去修憲我們嚴謹的透過公聽會擴大了民間的參與擴大的專業的參與我相信這一次我們如果能夠擴大這樣的參與是更好的下一頁\n295570\t309669\t所以說公聽會是有利於法案審議有利於匯聚社會共識我要再次說明這一次我們為什麼需要公聽會因為國會改革的法案有夠多目前國民黨民眾黨提了20案民進黨的黨版進來個別委員的立場\n313954\t337138\t法案進來可能有二、三十案法案多的時候就需要花多一點時間來彙具共識第二個國會改革的層面廣當然涉及修憲我就不再贅述第三點正因為多年來社會沒有共識今天一整個上午很多在野黨的委員說國會改革講了20年不用再討論了直接修就好\n343103\t344564\t為什麼國民黨害怕公聽會呢?\n360536\t376060\t為什麼國民黨害怕社會參與呢?為什麼國民黨害怕專業界的專家學者一起參與討論呢?難道國民黨害怕公聽會是因為他們經不起社會檢驗的版本在公聽會的討論之下會一一現形嗎?我相信不是。\n381545\t393939\t所以有公聽會Why not?任何一個爭議法案有公聽會就是幫立法院一把社會共識可以讓我們更有利的走在一起下一頁借其不連續\n397850\t416625\t周恩來老師您的書寫很多這是國會運作的ABC借其不連續因為新國會有新名義因為新國會有新名義更何況本屆的新國會裡頭有很多的新名義就像我們在座的翁小林委員他是法學博士\n417955\t431950\t所以有新民意有新的專業藉其不連續任何的法案就應當重新來討論。這就是您書上所說的嘛。新民意就是讓新的議案有重新討論界定的機會。對不對?\n433732\t452117\t所以為什麼國民黨委員一直在說過去討論了幾十年了這一切就不用再討論了就完全推翻了藉其不連續的國會運作原理秘書長您一直點頭如倒算您接受我的看法下一頁我要很嚴正的說\n453530\t480547\t很多國民黨民眾黨的委員一直拿民進黨2012或2016的版本來檢視今天2024民進黨的版本難道2024的此時此刻任何一個人生活在這一個時空2024的人一定要對於過去的主張照單全收嗎?如果是這樣的話社會不需要進步修法就是木乃伊就好了修法不是修文化資產欸復旧如舊欸\n483903\t500580\t為什麼2016民進黨的國會改革版本沒有強行通過民進黨是國會多數正因為社會沒有共識民進黨願意花時間在跟社會對話所以在民進黨即使是國會多數的時候2016民進黨的黨版國會改革沒有強度關山我要把這樣一個歷史的經驗分享給國民黨的委員\n508206\t535561\t第二個問題2016跟2024今天的國會改革版本不同不行嗎我要再次說我這一次是民進黨的國會改革小組的召集人當我們在審議在討論法案的時候我們很真切的回到過去的版本確實有違憲之餘確實沒有社會足夠的支持所以這一次我們把版本重新檢視\n537242\t556195\t沒有全盤照收因為社會在與時俱進我們的法案當然要與時俱進這也是借其不連續很重要的一個精神所以秘書長我在這裡要橫平的說如果承認過去的主張今天此時此刻的時空背景改變了\n557645\t579677\t我們沒有勇敢去修正的話我認為才愧對良心我作為2024民進黨黨版的國會改革法案的召集人我要說也許五年後十年後那個時候2035年再回來開2024年的民進黨的國會改革版本都還有很大改善的空間因為時代會改變嘛\n580612\t595224\t所以我在這裡要告訴所有的國民黨民眾黨的委員不要給人家扣帽子當年民進黨這樣講今年你就一定要照單全收那就是一個不進步那就是一個法案的木乃伊而已下一頁\n596434\t614194\t所以如果同一標準過去的主張不能改國民黨更是自打嘴巴啊針對總統到立法院急問急答這件事情2015的馬英九辦公室總統辦公室說總統到國會被巡視違反憲法我們的王金平院長2015年說\n615936\t633300\t只要總統來國會接受備詢就是違憲所以主張不是不能改啊不能去脈絡化啊如果國民黨說民進黨過去的版本就一定要汗手到底那國民黨看看當年你們自己說總統來國會備詢急問急答是違憲的你們的馬英九前總統這麼說你們的王金平前院長這麼說下一頁\n641562\t652679\t更何況國民黨的智庫針對總統到國會能不能夠急問急答而且常態化的備詢都說這是違憲這是國際的笑話好下一頁\n657466\t679144\t我最後一點點時間謝謝主席多給我一分鐘國會改革不是國會擴權權責相符才是真改革我們的法案今天會送出我也請立法院作為幕僚機關好好的來研議研究民進黨的版本有不好的地方我們接受可以在審查的過程再做討論因為這就是國會存在的意義嘛\n683067\t699194\t透過討論透過對於社會的對話透過專業的參與透過不同政黨的委員集思廣益我們才能讓國會真正的改革前進啊所以我跟您預告我們的版本裡頭有非常多是國會的自我要求\n700134\t713429\t我們唯有提升自我的問政量能我們唯有協助立法院給予更多的資源幫助我們的法治局跟預算中心有更鬆綁的人士可以去聘任外界更專業的人員進來我們的問政量能才能提升\n718755\t731513\t國會需要跟上國際我們需要新的資通安全處國會要有資安長才能夠讓國會的所有資訊安全的防火牆建立得更完善我相信秘書長都會支持\n733576\t752111\t打造一個權責相符的專業國會幫國會議員的問政的必要的幕僚功能提升這是幫立法院一把幫國家一把您都支持吧謝謝我會把你們版本交給法治局一併去研議\n753038\t776217\t所以法治局跟預算中心正是我們需要大大提升他們的相關量能跟給予資源所以我最後的結論就是任何的法案在慎重的討論過程當中我們就是對話而不是一再的傾斜於擴權的改革我想社會不會支持如果國會不自我要求一味的自我擴權\n777518\t777699\t委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請周萬來秘書長好 請秘書長\n國會改革一定要成功但是國會改革要走在對的方向\n國會改革不是國會擴權國會有權就要有責民主進步黨絕對支持國會改革但是要在正確的方向在合憲合規的方向在權責相輔的方向下一頁我想秘書長\n其實這個問題也不用就教於您了我們只要有基本的公民素養都知道這個法律未接的基本概念就是這個金三角最下面是行政命令中間是法律上面是憲法換言之任何的修法不能夠凌駕憲法\n而右邊這個圖呢也就是藍色的線就是國民黨現在跟民眾黨藍白兩黨的版本他們的國會改革是權大於責甚至就是一味的擴權\n綠色的線是民主進步黨的版本我們力求權責相符當我們給了國會更大的權力我們就要要求立委自身的問責跟克責問政監督的量能要予以提升所以首先我要先再次強調民進黨國會改革的幾個重大立場\n國會改革不是兒戲不能競相喊架重大的法案召開公聽會這個程序正義我們一定要捍衛第二個立場就如同剛剛這個金字塔該修憲就修憲修法是不能凌駕憲法的第三個\n如果在野黨強行以多數來通過違憲的國會改革法案,那民進黨將會申請我們的憲法法庭予以釋憲,進行快速的處分來暫緩施行。過去也有這樣的例子。這是民進黨的三大立場下頁。\n民眾黨在這裡喔你一定非常的印象深刻歷屆的修憲在立法院公聽會是開好開滿的甚至是藍綠執政的時候都一樣\n我今天舉出了三屆第十屆針對修憲的議案開了兩場公聽會而第十屆的公聽會我仍舊在這個國會現場針對三權分立是不是要廢考監這是一個憲政層級的討論而憲政層級的討論是不是要三權分立還是維持五權分立它就跟國會的職能息息相關\n第8屆開了10場的公聽會在修憲的時候他同樣的基於五權分立要不要改成三權分立這也跟國會的職權息息相關所以有10場的公聽會那個時候是國民黨基於國會多數\n第五屆修憲是不是要實行單一選區是不是要實行我們立委的檢辦開了六場公聽會這同樣是攸關憲政層級所以說國會改革就是憲政配套之一律師王你同意我的意思吧\n公聽會本身是由委員（回答我的問題博會改革跟憲政相關他是必要的配套要一併的考完公聽會的舉行並不一定是說會必要不必要你按一個議題當然由委員會自己來改變您覺得我們第5屆第8屆第10屆開了這麼多場公聽會是不是能夠有利於匯聚我們很多的修憲共識公聽會\n國會改革就是憲政制度的配套之一過去修憲我們嚴謹的透過公聽會擴大了民間的參與擴大的專業的參與我相信這一次我們如果能夠擴大這樣的參與是更好的下一頁\n所以說公聽會是有利於法案審議有利於匯聚社會共識我要再次說明這一次我們為什麼需要公聽會因為國會改革的法案有夠多目前國民黨民眾黨提了20案民進黨的黨版進來個別委員的立場\n法案進來可能有二、三十案法案多的時候就需要花多一點時間來彙具共識第二個國會改革的層面廣當然涉及修憲我就不再贅述第三點正因為多年來社會沒有共識今天一整個上午很多在野黨的委員說國會改革講了20年不用再討論了直接修就好\n為什麼國民黨害怕公聽會呢?\n為什麼國民黨害怕社會參與呢?為什麼國民黨害怕專業界的專家學者一起參與討論呢?難道國民黨害怕公聽會是因為他們經不起社會檢驗的版本在公聽會的討論之下會一一現形嗎?我相信不是。\n所以有公聽會Why not?任何一個爭議法案有公聽會就是幫立法院一把社會共識可以讓我們更有利的走在一起下一頁借其不連續\n周恩來老師您的書寫很多這是國會運作的ABC借其不連續因為新國會有新名義因為新國會有新名義更何況本屆的新國會裡頭有很多的新名義就像我們在座的翁小林委員他是法學博士\n所以有新民意有新的專業藉其不連續任何的法案就應當重新來討論。這就是您書上所說的嘛。新民意就是讓新的議案有重新討論界定的機會。對不對?\n所以為什麼國民黨委員一直在說過去討論了幾十年了這一切就不用再討論了就完全推翻了藉其不連續的國會運作原理秘書長您一直點頭如倒算您接受我的看法下一頁我要很嚴正的說\n很多國民黨民眾黨的委員一直拿民進黨2012或2016的版本來檢視今天2024民進黨的版本難道2024的此時此刻任何一個人生活在這一個時空2024的人一定要對於過去的主張照單全收嗎?如果是這樣的話社會不需要進步修法就是木乃伊就好了修法不是修文化資產欸復旧如舊欸\n為什麼2016民進黨的國會改革版本沒有強行通過民進黨是國會多數正因為社會沒有共識民進黨願意花時間在跟社會對話所以在民進黨即使是國會多數的時候2016民進黨的黨版國會改革沒有強度關山我要把這樣一個歷史的經驗分享給國民黨的委員\n第二個問題2016跟2024今天的國會改革版本不同不行嗎我要再次說我這一次是民進黨的國會改革小組的召集人當我們在審議在討論法案的時候我們很真切的回到過去的版本確實有違憲之餘確實沒有社會足夠的支持所以這一次我們把版本重新檢視\n沒有全盤照收因為社會在與時俱進我們的法案當然要與時俱進這也是借其不連續很重要的一個精神所以秘書長我在這裡要橫平的說如果承認過去的主張今天此時此刻的時空背景改變了\n我們沒有勇敢去修正的話我認為才愧對良心我作為2024民進黨黨版的國會改革法案的召集人我要說也許五年後十年後那個時候2035年再回來開2024年的民進黨的國會改革版本都還有很大改善的空間因為時代會改變嘛\n所以我在這裡要告訴所有的國民黨民眾黨的委員不要給人家扣帽子當年民進黨這樣講今年你就一定要照單全收那就是一個不進步那就是一個法案的木乃伊而已下一頁\n所以如果同一標準過去的主張不能改國民黨更是自打嘴巴啊針對總統到立法院急問急答這件事情2015的馬英九辦公室總統辦公室說總統到國會被巡視違反憲法我們的王金平院長2015年說\n只要總統來國會接受備詢就是違憲所以主張不是不能改啊不能去脈絡化啊如果國民黨說民進黨過去的版本就一定要汗手到底那國民黨看看當年你們自己說總統來國會備詢急問急答是違憲的你們的馬英九前總統這麼說你們的王金平前院長這麼說下一頁\n更何況國民黨的智庫針對總統到國會能不能夠急問急答而且常態化的備詢都說這是違憲這是國際的笑話好下一頁\n我最後一點點時間謝謝主席多給我一分鐘國會改革不是國會擴權權責相符才是真改革我們的法案今天會送出我也請立法院作為幕僚機關好好的來研議研究民進黨的版本有不好的地方我們接受可以在審查的過程再做討論因為這就是國會存在的意義嘛\n透過討論透過對於社會的對話透過專業的參與透過不同政黨的委員集思廣益我們才能讓國會真正的改革前進啊所以我跟您預告我們的版本裡頭有非常多是國會的自我要求\n我們唯有提升自我的問政量能我們唯有協助立法院給予更多的資源幫助我們的法治局跟預算中心有更鬆綁的人士可以去聘任外界更專業的人員進來我們的問政量能才能提升\n國會需要跟上國際我們需要新的資通安全處國會要有資安長才能夠讓國會的所有資訊安全的防火牆建立得更完善我相信秘書長都會支持\n打造一個權責相符的專業國會幫國會議員的問政的必要的幕僚功能提升這是幫立法院一把幫國家一把您都支持吧謝謝我會把你們版本交給法治局一併去研議\n所以法治局跟預算中心正是我們需要大大提升他們的相關量能跟給予資源所以我最後的結論就是任何的法案在慎重的討論過程當中我們就是對話而不是一再的傾斜於擴權的改革我想社會不會支持如果國會不自我要求一味的自我擴權\n委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.003 --> 00:10.227\n謝謝主席有請周萬來秘書長好請秘書長\n\n00:15.694 --> 00:17.355\n國會改革一定要成功但是國會改革要走在對的方向\n\n00:44.152 --> 01:01.419\n國會改革不是國會擴權國會有權就要有責民主進步黨絕對支持國會改革但是要在正確的方向在合憲合規的方向在權責相輔的方向下一頁我想秘書長\n\n01:04.915 --> 01:23.538\n其實這個問題也不用就教於您了我們只要有基本的公民素養都知道這個法律未接的基本概念就是這個金三角最下面是行政命令中間是法律上面是憲法換言之任何的修法不能夠凌駕憲法\n\n01:24.844 --> 01:39.243\n而右邊這個圖呢也就是藍色的線就是國民黨現在跟民眾黨藍白兩黨的版本他們的國會改革是權大於責甚至就是一味的擴權\n\n01:40.764 --> 02:04.056\n綠色的線是民主進步黨的版本我們力求權責相符當我們給了國會更大的權力我們就要要求立委自身的問責跟克責問政監督的量能要予以提升所以首先我要先再次強調民進黨國會改革的幾個重大立場\n\n02:05.477 --> 02:24.094\n國會改革不是兒戲不能競相喊架重大的法案召開公聽會這個程序正義我們一定要捍衛第二個立場就如同剛剛這個金字塔該修憲就修憲修法是不能凌駕憲法的第三個\n\n02:25.583 --> 02:42.558\n如果在野黨強行以多數來通過違憲的國會改革法案,那民進黨將會申請我們的憲法法庭予以釋憲,進行快速的處分來暫緩施行。過去也有這樣的例子。這是民進黨的三大立場下頁。\n\n02:44.045 --> 02:53.119\n民眾黨在這裡喔你一定非常的印象深刻歷屆的修憲在立法院公聽會是開好開滿的甚至是藍綠執政的時候都一樣\n\n02:59.548 --> 03:06.112\n我今天舉出了三屆第十屆針對修憲的議案開了兩場公聽會而第十屆的公聽會我仍舊在這個國會現場針對三權分立是不是要廢考監這是一個憲政層級的討論而憲政層級的討論是不是要三權分立還是維持五權分立它就跟國會的職能息息相關\n\n03:24.324 --> 03:39.041\n第8屆開了10場的公聽會在修憲的時候他同樣的基於五權分立要不要改成三權分立這也跟國會的職權息息相關所以有10場的公聽會那個時候是國民黨基於國會多數\n\n03:40.442 --> 03:57.777\n第五屆修憲是不是要實行單一選區是不是要實行我們立委的檢辦開了六場公聽會這同樣是攸關憲政層級所以說國會改革就是憲政配套之一律師王你同意我的意思吧\n\n03:59.056 --> 04:23.228\n公聽會本身是由委員（回答我的問題博會改革跟憲政相關他是必要的配套要一併的考完公聽會的舉行並不一定是說會必要不必要你按一個議題當然由委員會自己來改變您覺得我們第5屆第8屆第10屆開了這麼多場公聽會是不是能夠有利於匯聚我們很多的修憲共識公聽會\n\n04:26.585 --> 04:31.326\n國會改革就是憲政制度的配套之一過去修憲我們嚴謹的透過公聽會擴大了民間的參與擴大的專業的參與我相信這一次我們如果能夠擴大這樣的參與是更好的下一頁\n\n04:55.570 --> 05:09.669\n所以說公聽會是有利於法案審議有利於匯聚社會共識我要再次說明這一次我們為什麼需要公聽會因為國會改革的法案有夠多目前國民黨民眾黨提了20案民進黨的黨版進來個別委員的立場\n\n05:13.954 --> 05:37.138\n法案進來可能有二、三十案法案多的時候就需要花多一點時間來彙具共識第二個國會改革的層面廣當然涉及修憲我就不再贅述第三點正因為多年來社會沒有共識今天一整個上午很多在野黨的委員說國會改革講了20年不用再討論了直接修就好\n\n05:43.103 --> 05:44.564\n為什麼國民黨害怕公聽會呢?\n\n06:00.536 --> 06:16.060\n為什麼國民黨害怕社會參與呢?為什麼國民黨害怕專業界的專家學者一起參與討論呢?難道國民黨害怕公聽會是因為他們經不起社會檢驗的版本在公聽會的討論之下會一一現形嗎?我相信不是。\n\n06:21.545 --> 06:33.939\n所以有公聽會Whynot?任何一個爭議法案有公聽會就是幫立法院一把社會共識可以讓我們更有利的走在一起下一頁借其不連續\n\n06:37.850 --> 06:56.625\n周恩來老師您的書寫很多這是國會運作的ABC借其不連續因為新國會有新名義因為新國會有新名義更何況本屆的新國會裡頭有很多的新名義就像我們在座的翁小林委員他是法學博士\n\n06:57.955 --> 07:11.950\n所以有新民意有新的專業藉其不連續任何的法案就應當重新來討論。這就是您書上所說的嘛。新民意就是讓新的議案有重新討論界定的機會。對不對?\n\n07:13.732 --> 07:32.117\n所以為什麼國民黨委員一直在說過去討論了幾十年了這一切就不用再討論了就完全推翻了藉其不連續的國會運作原理秘書長您一直點頭如倒算您接受我的看法下一頁我要很嚴正的說\n\n07:33.530 --> 08:00.547\n很多國民黨民眾黨的委員一直拿民進黨2012或2016的版本來檢視今天2024民進黨的版本難道2024的此時此刻任何一個人生活在這一個時空2024的人一定要對於過去的主張照單全收嗎?如果是這樣的話社會不需要進步修法就是木乃伊就好了修法不是修文化資產欸復旧如舊欸\n\n08:03.903 --> 08:20.580\n為什麼2016民進黨的國會改革版本沒有強行通過民進黨是國會多數正因為社會沒有共識民進黨願意花時間在跟社會對話所以在民進黨即使是國會多數的時候2016民進黨的黨版國會改革沒有強度關山我要把這樣一個歷史的經驗分享給國民黨的委員\n\n08:28.206 --> 08:55.561\n第二個問題2016跟2024今天的國會改革版本不同不行嗎我要再次說我這一次是民進黨的國會改革小組的召集人當我們在審議在討論法案的時候我們很真切的回到過去的版本確實有違憲之餘確實沒有社會足夠的支持所以這一次我們把版本重新檢視\n\n08:57.242 --> 09:16.195\n沒有全盤照收因為社會在與時俱進我們的法案當然要與時俱進這也是借其不連續很重要的一個精神所以秘書長我在這裡要橫平的說如果承認過去的主張今天此時此刻的時空背景改變了\n\n09:17.645 --> 09:39.677\n我們沒有勇敢去修正的話我認為才愧對良心我作為2024民進黨黨版的國會改革法案的召集人我要說也許五年後十年後那個時候2035年再回來開2024年的民進黨的國會改革版本都還有很大改善的空間因為時代會改變嘛\n\n09:40.612 --> 09:55.224\n所以我在這裡要告訴所有的國民黨民眾黨的委員不要給人家扣帽子當年民進黨這樣講今年你就一定要照單全收那就是一個不進步那就是一個法案的木乃伊而已下一頁\n\n09:56.434 --> 10:14.194\n所以如果同一標準過去的主張不能改國民黨更是自打嘴巴啊針對總統到立法院急問急答這件事情2015的馬英九辦公室總統辦公室說總統到國會被巡視違反憲法我們的王金平院長2015年說\n\n10:15.936 --> 10:33.300\n只要總統來國會接受備詢就是違憲所以主張不是不能改啊不能去脈絡化啊如果國民黨說民進黨過去的版本就一定要汗手到底那國民黨看看當年你們自己說總統來國會備詢急問急答是違憲的你們的馬英九前總統這麼說你們的王金平前院長這麼說下一頁\n\n10:41.562 --> 10:52.679\n更何況國民黨的智庫針對總統到國會能不能夠急問急答而且常態化的備詢都說這是違憲這是國際的笑話好下一頁\n\n10:57.466 --> 11:19.144\n我最後一點點時間謝謝主席多給我一分鐘國會改革不是國會擴權權責相符才是真改革我們的法案今天會送出我也請立法院作為幕僚機關好好的來研議研究民進黨的版本有不好的地方我們接受可以在審查的過程再做討論因為這就是國會存在的意義嘛\n\n11:23.067 --> 11:39.194\n透過討論透過對於社會的對話透過專業的參與透過不同政黨的委員集思廣益我們才能讓國會真正的改革前進啊所以我跟您預告我們的版本裡頭有非常多是國會的自我要求\n\n11:40.134 --> 11:53.429\n我們唯有提升自我的問政量能我們唯有協助立法院給予更多的資源幫助我們的法治局跟預算中心有更鬆綁的人士可以去聘任外界更專業的人員進來我們的問政量能才能提升\n\n11:58.755 --> 12:11.513\n國會需要跟上國際我們需要新的資通安全處國會要有資安長才能夠讓國會的所有資訊安全的防火牆建立得更完善我相信秘書長都會支持\n\n12:13.576 --> 12:32.111\n打造一個權責相符的專業國會幫國會議員的問政的必要的幕僚功能提升這是幫立法院一把幫國家一把您都支持吧謝謝我會把你們版本交給法治局一併去研議\n\n12:33.038 --> 12:56.217\n所以法治局跟預算中心正是我們需要大大提升他們的相關量能跟給予資源所以我最後的結論就是任何的法案在慎重的討論過程當中我們就是對話而不是一再的傾斜於擴權的改革我想社會不會支持如果國會不自我要求一味的自我擴權\n\n12:57.518 --> 12:57.699\n委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.003,"end":10.227,"text":"謝謝主席 有請周萬來秘書長好 請秘書長"},{"start":15.694,"end":17.355,"text":"國會改革一定要成功但是國會改革要走在對的方向"},{"start":44.152,"end":61.419,"text":"國會改革不是國會擴權國會有權就要有責民主進步黨絕對支持國會改革但是要在正確的方向在合憲合規的方向在權責相輔的方向下一頁我想秘書長"},{"start":64.915,"end":83.538,"text":"其實這個問題也不用就教於您了我們只要有基本的公民素養都知道這個法律未接的基本概念就是這個金三角最下面是行政命令中間是法律上面是憲法換言之任何的修法不能夠凌駕憲法"},{"start":84.844,"end":99.243,"text":"而右邊這個圖呢也就是藍色的線就是國民黨現在跟民眾黨藍白兩黨的版本他們的國會改革是權大於責甚至就是一味的擴權"},{"start":100.764,"end":124.056,"text":"綠色的線是民主進步黨的版本我們力求權責相符當我們給了國會更大的權力我們就要要求立委自身的問責跟克責問政監督的量能要予以提升所以首先我要先再次強調民進黨國會改革的幾個重大立場"},{"start":125.477,"end":144.094,"text":"國會改革不是兒戲不能競相喊架重大的法案召開公聽會這個程序正義我們一定要捍衛第二個立場就如同剛剛這個金字塔該修憲就修憲修法是不能凌駕憲法的第三個"},{"start":145.583,"end":162.558,"text":"如果在野黨強行以多數來通過違憲的國會改革法案,那民進黨將會申請我們的憲法法庭予以釋憲,進行快速的處分來暫緩施行。過去也有這樣的例子。這是民進黨的三大立場下頁。"},{"start":164.045,"end":173.119,"text":"民眾黨在這裡喔你一定非常的印象深刻歷屆的修憲在立法院公聽會是開好開滿的甚至是藍綠執政的時候都一樣"},{"start":179.548,"end":186.112,"text":"我今天舉出了三屆第十屆針對修憲的議案開了兩場公聽會而第十屆的公聽會我仍舊在這個國會現場針對三權分立是不是要廢考監這是一個憲政層級的討論而憲政層級的討論是不是要三權分立還是維持五權分立它就跟國會的職能息息相關"},{"start":204.324,"end":219.041,"text":"第8屆開了10場的公聽會在修憲的時候他同樣的基於五權分立要不要改成三權分立這也跟國會的職權息息相關所以有10場的公聽會那個時候是國民黨基於國會多數"},{"start":220.442,"end":237.777,"text":"第五屆修憲是不是要實行單一選區是不是要實行我們立委的檢辦開了六場公聽會這同樣是攸關憲政層級所以說國會改革就是憲政配套之一律師王你同意我的意思吧"},{"start":239.056,"end":263.228,"text":"公聽會本身是由委員（回答我的問題博會改革跟憲政相關他是必要的配套要一併的考完公聽會的舉行並不一定是說會必要不必要你按一個議題當然由委員會自己來改變您覺得我們第5屆第8屆第10屆開了這麼多場公聽會是不是能夠有利於匯聚我們很多的修憲共識公聽會"},{"start":266.585,"end":271.326,"text":"國會改革就是憲政制度的配套之一過去修憲我們嚴謹的透過公聽會擴大了民間的參與擴大的專業的參與我相信這一次我們如果能夠擴大這樣的參與是更好的下一頁"},{"start":295.57,"end":309.669,"text":"所以說公聽會是有利於法案審議有利於匯聚社會共識我要再次說明這一次我們為什麼需要公聽會因為國會改革的法案有夠多目前國民黨民眾黨提了20案民進黨的黨版進來個別委員的立場"},{"start":313.954,"end":337.138,"text":"法案進來可能有二、三十案法案多的時候就需要花多一點時間來彙具共識第二個國會改革的層面廣當然涉及修憲我就不再贅述第三點正因為多年來社會沒有共識今天一整個上午很多在野黨的委員說國會改革講了20年不用再討論了直接修就好"},{"start":343.103,"end":344.564,"text":"為什麼國民黨害怕公聽會呢?"},{"start":360.536,"end":376.06,"text":"為什麼國民黨害怕社會參與呢?為什麼國民黨害怕專業界的專家學者一起參與討論呢?難道國民黨害怕公聽會是因為他們經不起社會檢驗的版本在公聽會的討論之下會一一現形嗎?我相信不是。"},{"start":381.545,"end":393.939,"text":"所以有公聽會Why not?任何一個爭議法案有公聽會就是幫立法院一把社會共識可以讓我們更有利的走在一起下一頁借其不連續"},{"start":397.85,"end":416.625,"text":"周恩來老師您的書寫很多這是國會運作的ABC借其不連續因為新國會有新名義因為新國會有新名義更何況本屆的新國會裡頭有很多的新名義就像我們在座的翁小林委員他是法學博士"},{"start":417.955,"end":431.95,"text":"所以有新民意有新的專業藉其不連續任何的法案就應當重新來討論。這就是您書上所說的嘛。新民意就是讓新的議案有重新討論界定的機會。對不對?"},{"start":433.732,"end":452.117,"text":"所以為什麼國民黨委員一直在說過去討論了幾十年了這一切就不用再討論了就完全推翻了藉其不連續的國會運作原理秘書長您一直點頭如倒算您接受我的看法下一頁我要很嚴正的說"},{"start":453.53,"end":480.547,"text":"很多國民黨民眾黨的委員一直拿民進黨2012或2016的版本來檢視今天2024民進黨的版本難道2024的此時此刻任何一個人生活在這一個時空2024的人一定要對於過去的主張照單全收嗎?如果是這樣的話社會不需要進步修法就是木乃伊就好了修法不是修文化資產欸復旧如舊欸"},{"start":483.903,"end":500.58,"text":"為什麼2016民進黨的國會改革版本沒有強行通過民進黨是國會多數正因為社會沒有共識民進黨願意花時間在跟社會對話所以在民進黨即使是國會多數的時候2016民進黨的黨版國會改革沒有強度關山我要把這樣一個歷史的經驗分享給國民黨的委員"},{"start":508.206,"end":535.561,"text":"第二個問題2016跟2024今天的國會改革版本不同不行嗎我要再次說我這一次是民進黨的國會改革小組的召集人當我們在審議在討論法案的時候我們很真切的回到過去的版本確實有違憲之餘確實沒有社會足夠的支持所以這一次我們把版本重新檢視"},{"start":537.242,"end":556.195,"text":"沒有全盤照收因為社會在與時俱進我們的法案當然要與時俱進這也是借其不連續很重要的一個精神所以秘書長我在這裡要橫平的說如果承認過去的主張今天此時此刻的時空背景改變了"},{"start":557.645,"end":579.677,"text":"我們沒有勇敢去修正的話我認為才愧對良心我作為2024民進黨黨版的國會改革法案的召集人我要說也許五年後十年後那個時候2035年再回來開2024年的民進黨的國會改革版本都還有很大改善的空間因為時代會改變嘛"},{"start":580.612,"end":595.224,"text":"所以我在這裡要告訴所有的國民黨民眾黨的委員不要給人家扣帽子當年民進黨這樣講今年你就一定要照單全收那就是一個不進步那就是一個法案的木乃伊而已下一頁"},{"start":596.434,"end":614.194,"text":"所以如果同一標準過去的主張不能改國民黨更是自打嘴巴啊針對總統到立法院急問急答這件事情2015的馬英九辦公室總統辦公室說總統到國會被巡視違反憲法我們的王金平院長2015年說"},{"start":615.936,"end":633.3,"text":"只要總統來國會接受備詢就是違憲所以主張不是不能改啊不能去脈絡化啊如果國民黨說民進黨過去的版本就一定要汗手到底那國民黨看看當年你們自己說總統來國會備詢急問急答是違憲的你們的馬英九前總統這麼說你們的王金平前院長這麼說下一頁"},{"start":641.562,"end":652.679,"text":"更何況國民黨的智庫針對總統到國會能不能夠急問急答而且常態化的備詢都說這是違憲這是國際的笑話好下一頁"},{"start":657.466,"end":679.144,"text":"我最後一點點時間謝謝主席多給我一分鐘國會改革不是國會擴權權責相符才是真改革我們的法案今天會送出我也請立法院作為幕僚機關好好的來研議研究民進黨的版本有不好的地方我們接受可以在審查的過程再做討論因為這就是國會存在的意義嘛"},{"start":683.067,"end":699.194,"text":"透過討論透過對於社會的對話透過專業的參與透過不同政黨的委員集思廣益我們才能讓國會真正的改革前進啊所以我跟您預告我們的版本裡頭有非常多是國會的自我要求"},{"start":700.134,"end":713.429,"text":"我們唯有提升自我的問政量能我們唯有協助立法院給予更多的資源幫助我們的法治局跟預算中心有更鬆綁的人士可以去聘任外界更專業的人員進來我們的問政量能才能提升"},{"start":718.755,"end":731.513,"text":"國會需要跟上國際我們需要新的資通安全處國會要有資安長才能夠讓國會的所有資訊安全的防火牆建立得更完善我相信秘書長都會支持"},{"start":733.576,"end":752.111,"text":"打造一個權責相符的專業國會幫國會議員的問政的必要的幕僚功能提升這是幫立法院一把幫國家一把您都支持吧謝謝我會把你們版本交給法治局一併去研議"},{"start":753.038,"end":776.217,"text":"所以法治局跟預算中心正是我們需要大大提升他們的相關量能跟給予資源所以我最後的結論就是任何的法案在慎重的討論過程當中我們就是對話而不是一再的傾斜於擴權的改革我想社會不會支持如果國會不自我要求一味的自我擴權"},{"start":777.518,"end":777.699,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具"}]}}}}