{"id":150778,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150778","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0b746899486037a569e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a655cb995b5bd8e5235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:51:53 - 12:05:05","影片長度":"00:13:12","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":792,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:05:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:51:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":630,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（11時52分）謝謝主席，請秘書長。"],["主席：好，秘書長。"],["林委員思銘：我還是要重申，今天國會改革、五法的改革，尤其是國會的聽證調查權，民進黨一直主張這個部分擴權，剛才吳思瑤委員講我們擴權，我想這言重了，這部分大家可以討論，但是絕對沒有所謂立法院擴權的說法，這是不存在的。","好，我們先講立法院院長記名投票這部分，記名投票這部分在學界還存有爭議，但是我想告訴民眾的是，基於民意、責任及陽光政治的理念，立法委員在立法院內的表決應該要公開，要用顯明的方式，所以包含了記名投票、唱名表決、舉手表決等，足以讓民眾得知我們身為國會議員，我們是代表民意來投票，所以正副院長的選舉應該採取記名投票的方式比較妥當，也可以落實資訊公開，讓人民充分了解民意代表的決策。秘書長，你同意嗎？我說的這些，你同意嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我先同意這一個，因為地方制度法也有這樣規範，我在報告裡面所寫的是有兩種情況啦！"],["林委員思銘：了解，但是我現在說的是……"],["周秘書長萬來：但你們的提案內容我也看過，尊重你們的決定。"],["林委員思銘：是嘛！我們也要陽光投進我們立法院嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：那沒有問題，沒問題。"],["林委員思銘：所以用記名投票的方式，並沒有違反憲法第一百二十九條規定的問題嘛？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有、沒有，兩邊的教授有不同的看法，我個人是比較傾向可以。"],["林委員思銘：是可以嘛？"],["周秘書長萬來：但是還是要尊重委員在會議過程當中所做的決定。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，你一直顯得很中立，其實我要告訴你，我們立法委員選任院長，我剛才前面講那麼多，其實也是要告訴社會大眾，選院長這件事情也是立法委員職權、權能的行使，它的性質其實是一種議事行為，這跟人民行使參政權選舉公職人員，性質是截然不同的，所以不能相提並論。因此與憲法第一百二十九條根本沒有連帶關係，所以不一定要採取無記名投票的方式，我這麼說對啦？"],["周秘書長萬來：跟林委員報告，因為林委員也是學法的……"],["林委員思銘：是，所以我現在點出實際上……"],["周秘書長萬來：因為當時是大法官，像我們吳老師吳庚他就認為這個是沒有，但是中興大學李惠宗教授他認為是要……"],["林委員思銘：當然啦！每一位教授的看法我們都尊重，但是我現在覺得我們立法委員也要有自己的看法。"],["周秘書長萬來：對，所以我才……"],["林委員思銘：我們的看法認為這個根本沒有違憲的問題，所以這一條應該大家都沒有爭議啦！"],["周秘書長萬來：對，沒有違憲，所以我剛才跟林委員報告說尊重你們的決定。"],["林委員思銘：你的看法也一樣，沒有違憲嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。現在來講國會調查權，我先直接請教秘書長，對於我們立法委員擁有國會調查權，你是持肯定的態度還是否定的態度？"],["周秘書長萬來：立法院調查權本來就是輔助性的權力，這個是……"],["林委員思銘：固有的權力嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：對，第585號已經解釋了，我們有立法院調查權。"],["林委員思銘：是，我想第585號解釋也講得很清楚，立法院為有效行使憲法所賦予的立法職權，本其固有的權能就享有一定的調查權嘛！主動獲取行使職權所需的相關資訊，俾能充分思辯，審慎決定，以善盡我們民意代表的職責，也發揮權力分立與制衡的機能。但是該號解釋也強調，立法院行使調查權的方式，並不以要求有關機關就立法院行使職權所涉及事項提供參考資料為限，就是我們還可以向它調閱文件的原本，必要時也得經院會決議，要求與調查事項相關的人民或政府人員陳述證言或表示意見，並得對違反協助調查義務者處以罰鍰的處分，並於必要的範圍內施以合理的強制手段，使立法院調查權的行使更為完整，並有助立法院職權行使過程中相關資訊的蒐集，所以立法院聽證權有法制化的必要。","秘書長，根據我剛才講的這段陳述，也是釋字第585號解釋的精神和主要意旨，所以你也是贊同國會要有調查權。另外，從這段意旨裡面，也認為我們國會要把藐視國會罪法制化，這個你認同嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我認同，但是原來的調查權裡面，剛才林委員也唸過第585號解釋裡面的內容，所以我們法制局當時在做這個報告的時候，也請了好幾個學者專家來，對於罰鍰這個部分是行政罰還是要由刑罰來處分，每一個學者專家的看法不一，剛才我也這樣做報告。"],["林委員思銘：是啦！學者專家的意見不一，這個我們也都有看過，但是我們來看一下世界各國的立法例，好不好？其實我們看各國的國會調查權可以知道，不論是法國的國會職權行使法、美國的議事規則、德國的聯邦議事規則或者日本的議院證言法，都有國會強制權的附屬武器。原則上，調查實施的時候，受調查者如果沒有正當理由拒絕證言，或者拒絕提供相關資訊文件者，應受有懲處，例如罰金或刑責，有罰金也有刑責，不限於只有罰鍰而已；如作偽證者，亦同。","我國過去在監察院實施調查權的相關規範中，都完全沒有相關的規定，但在釋字第585號解釋中，我剛才講了，它已經肯認、承認應該有這類的刑罰，所以立法院的行使調查權跟監察委員是不同的。立法院如果要行使國會調查權，我們就必須對於這種拒絕證言、虛偽證言，或者虛偽陳述，或者隱匿相關文件、不願意提供文件的，我們必須要去立法，讓這些拒絕提供的、藐視國會的，必須要受到相當的懲處。","世界各國都有相關的立法啦！其實我想講的是，我發覺民進黨一直在抗拒國會五法的立法，抗拒國會的每一位立法委員擁有聽證調查權，以及對於相關官員如果為拒絕陳述，不願意提供資料，我們要課以相關的懲處，不限於只是行政罰鍰而已，甚至刑責也是OK的，這也不違憲啊！所以剛才一直聽到說什麼違憲，秘書長，你認為如果用刑罰有違憲嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個強制手段到底有沒有涉及到刑罰，目前的看法不一，譬如說有委員在……"],["林委員思銘：所以說我們從世界各國的立法例來看，沒有問題啊！沒有違憲的問題啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：我們必須要以第585號解釋作為基礎，再去做這一層……"],["林委員思銘：其實第633號解釋也認為我們行使裁罰，不管是用刑罰或者是用行政罰鍰，只要它的要件及標準有明確，而且讓受規範者得預見其行為的可罰性，且其規定得經司法審查加以確認，這個就符合憲法第二十三條比例原則以及法律明確性原則的要求嘛！相關的解釋也是這樣子的說法，所以沒有違憲的問題吧？秘書長，因為你剛才答得還是很曖昧，到底有沒有違憲？如果用刑罰來處罰，你認為有違憲嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：違憲不是我能夠做解釋，大法官才能做司法院的解釋。"],["林委員思銘：不是，今天你站在這裡，我是想說你個人也是一個專家嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：我本身是說，必須在符合第585號解釋的情況下做處理。各位委員如果在立法過程當中，認為是要用刑罰，那我們也尊重，以幕僚的立場，我們不予表示。"],["林委員思銘：尊重，但是有沒有違憲你不方便回答，是不是？"],["周秘書長萬來：對，我不予表示。"],["林委員思銘：好，我剛才已經論述非常多了，其實也沒有違憲的問題。","最後一個問題，我還是要再次跟您請教，總統的國情報告這部分，我聽到很多民進黨委員說我們現在是總統制，參照美國，美國的總統只要來做國情咨文之後，他可以不接受詢問，然後一直強調說總統來做國情報告，接受我們委員的即問即答，一直說這是違憲啊！秘書長，你認為呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：我上一次報告已經講得很清楚，我們立法院有決定權。"],["林委員思銘：剛剛講得很清楚，他們還是一直講說這樣違憲，那我要請問你……"],["周秘書長萬來：因為立法院有決定權。"],["林委員思銘：你覺得我們是什麼制的國家？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有，我們現……"],["林委員思銘：我們現在是什麼制的國家？我們是雙首長制還是總統制？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們也不是雙首長制啦！因為在修憲以後，類似，也不完全相同，所以制度的設計上，跟別的國家不會一樣，我們不會一樣。"],["林委員思銘：所以我們也不是總統制，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：對，我們不會一樣，所以我當天所提的報告也是給各位參考各個國家的情況。"],["林委員思銘：所以美國的總統只來做國情報告，然後馬上就拍拍屁股走了，講完他就走了，也不接受質詢，跟我們憲法的設計是不一樣的嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["林委員思銘：因為現在我們憲法的設計，行政院長不必經過立法院的同意，總統可以隨時任免他，任命他也可以任免他，隨時可以換人，行政院長的副署權也被取消了，所以很顯然的，我們的行政院長已經不是獨立行使職權的行政首長，只是總統的幕僚長，總統認為他的意見跟總統不一樣的話，總統隨時可以免除他的職務，馬上可以換人啦！所以實際上我們現在的總統是有權無責，難道我們代表人民的國會，在他來做國情報告的時候，我們沒有權力對他做詢問嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我剛才報告過了，立法院有決定權嘛！"],["林委員思銘：對啊！現在相關的法規都很明確了，不管是增修條文，立法院可以邀請他來做國情報告，或依立法院職權行使法，四分之一立法委員的請求可以邀請他來，我想這個都已經有很明確的規範了嘛，所以總統必須來做國情報告。賴清德總統自己也答應了，說他願意來國會，只是他對於我們詢答的方式有意見，我們是認為即問即答才符合現在的國情，總統不能有權無責啦，總統有必要接受我們立法委員的質詢，而且要採即問即答的方式才有意義啊！秘書長，你同意嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：這是我們院裡面自己可以做決定的地方。"],["林委員思銘：是嘛！OK，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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\"所\", \"start\": 268.439, \"end\": 268.639, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"涉\", \"start\": 268.639, \"end\": 268.839, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 268.839, \"end\": 268.959, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 268.959, \"end\": 269.099, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 269.099, \"end\": 269.74, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 269.74, \"end\": 269.96, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 269.96, \"end\": 270.54, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 270.54, \"end\": 270.96, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 270.96, \"end\": 271.901, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 271.901, \"end\": 272.761, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 272.761, \"end\": 272.901, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 272.901, \"end\": 273.041, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 277.545, \"end\": 277.705, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 277.705, \"end\": 277.826, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 277.826, \"end\": 277.986, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 277.986, \"end\": 278.006, \"score\": 0.065}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 278.006, \"end\": 278.086, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 278.086, \"end\": 278.106, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 278.106, \"end\": 278.146, \"score\": 0.34}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 278.146, \"end\": 278.286, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 278.286, \"end\": 278.306, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 295.559, \"end\": 311.838, \"text\": \"並於這個必要的範圍內是以合理的強制手段使立法院的調查權的行使更為完整並有助立法院職權行使過程中相關資訊的收集所以立法院聽證權有法制化的必要\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"並\"}, 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\"他已經不是獨立行使職權的行政首長只是總統的幕僚長總統隨時認為說他的意見跟總統不一樣的話總統可以去馬上把他免除他的一個職務馬上可以換人了所以實際上我們現在的總統是有權無責啊所以難道我們代表人民的國會在他來做國情報告的時候我們沒有權利對他做一個詢問嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 706.283, \"end\": 706.443, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 706.443, \"end\": 706.783, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 706.783, \"end\": 706.924, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 706.924, \"end\": 707.344, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"獨\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 707.344, \"end\": 707.544, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 707.544, \"end\": 707.965, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 707.965, \"end\": 708.625, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 708.625, \"end\": 708.765, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 708.765, \"end\": 708.985, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 708.985, \"end\": 709.226, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 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1.0}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 788.611, \"end\": 789.012, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 789.012, \"end\": 789.233, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 789.233, \"end\": 789.393, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 789.393, \"end\": 789.474, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 789.474, \"end\": 789.634, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 789.634, \"end\": 789.654, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,919 --> 00:00:23,509\n謝謝主席我想我還是要重申今天我們這個國會改革無法的改革尤其是國會的聽證調查權我想民進黨一直主張說這個部分什麼擴權該護士要委員講我們擴權我想這嚴重了\n\n2\n00:00:27,751 --> 00:00:46,457\n此部分大家可以討論,但是絕對沒有所謂的立法院擴權這樣子的一個說法,這是不存在的。好,我們先講這個立法院院長的記名投票這部分。那我想這個記名投票這部分,到底學界還有存有爭議?\n\n3\n00:00:48,058 --> 00:01:02,208\n但是我要這個想說的就是要告訴民眾的基於民意責任及陽光政治的理念立法委員在立法院內的表決應該要公開要用顯明的方式\n\n4\n00:01:03,448 --> 00:01:29,543\n所以包含了競民投票、唱名表決、舉手表決等屬於讓我們的民眾得知我們身為國會議員我們代表民意我們這個投票的方式所以政府院長的選舉也應該採取競民投票的方式那比較妥當也可以落實資訊公開讓我們的人民充分了解民意代表的決策\n\n5\n00:01:31,901 --> 00:01:32,522\n議員楊瓊瓔,您同意嗎?議員楊瓊瓔,您同意嗎?\n\n6\n00:01:58,115 --> 00:01:58,355\n二）委員\n\n7\n00:02:15,905 --> 00:02:16,085\n議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具\n\n8\n00:02:37,132 --> 00:02:55,012\n這跟我們人民的行使參政權選舉公職人員性質截然是不同的,所以不能相提並論。因此與憲法第129條根本沒有連帶關係,所以不一定要採取吳敬明投票的方式。\n\n9\n00:02:57,192 --> 00:03:20,748\n我這樣說對嗎?因為他跟林委員報告因為林委員也是學法啦因為當時是大法官大法官像我們吳老師吳剛他就認為這個是沒有但是李偉忠教授中興大學李偉忠教授他認為是要每一位教授他的看法我們都尊重但是我現在覺得我們立法委員也要有自己的看法嘛\n\n10\n00:03:22,029 --> 00:03:43,852\n所以我們看法認為這個根本沒有違憲的問題。所以大家都沒有正義。你會看法也一樣嘛,沒有違憲嘛。好,謝謝。來,現在來講國會調查權啦。那我想這個我先直接請教這個秘書長,你對於我們立法委員擁有國會調查權,你是肯定,持肯定的態度還是否定的態度?\n\n11\n00:03:46,707 --> 00:03:58,923\n五八五已經解釋了,我們有立法院調查權了。是,我想五八五好解釋他也講得很清楚,就是說立法院為有效行使憲法所賦予的立法職權\n\n12\n00:04:00,205 --> 00:04:04,087\n主動獲取行使職權所需的相關資訊並能充分思辨、審慎決定以善盡民意代表的職責也發揮權力分立與制衡的機能\n\n13\n00:04:17,193 --> 00:04:35,923\n但是該號解釋也強調,就是說我們立法院行使調查權的方式並不以要求有機關就立法院行使職權所涉及的事項提供參考資料為限。就是我們還可以向他調閱文件的原本。\n\n14\n00:04:37,285 --> 00:04:38,306\n並得對違反協助調查義務者處以法源的處分。\n\n15\n00:04:55,559 --> 00:05:11,838\n並於這個必要的範圍內是以合理的強制手段使立法院的調查權的行使更為完整並有助立法院職權行使過程中相關資訊的收集所以立法院聽證權有法制化的必要\n\n16\n00:05:14,008 --> 00:05:41,587\n所以民主黨根據我剛才講的這段陳述就是也是4585號他的一個解釋的一個精神的一個的主要的意旨所以你也是贊同國會要有調查權那另外就是說從這段意旨裡面也認為說我們國會要有這個把這個藐視國會罪這部分要這個有法制化這個你認同嗎?\n\n17\n00:05:43,164 --> 00:05:53,812\n我認同但是因為這一個因為我們裡面這裡面原來這個調查局裡面剛才林委剛才也練過這58號解釋裡面的內容所以我們法治局在當時在做這個報告的時候也請了好幾個學者專家來對於這一個\n\n18\n00:06:29,081 --> 00:06:38,046\n世界各國的立法例我們看一下其實我們看各國的國會調查權可以知道不論是法國的國會職權行使法美國的議事規則德國的聯邦議事規則或者日本的議會政研法\n\n19\n00:06:45,191 --> 00:07:07,625\n多有國會強制權的附屬武器。原則上就是調查實施的時候受調查者如果沒有正當理由拒絕證言或者提供這個拒絕提供相關的資訊文件者應受有懲處一如罰金或刑責有罰金也有刑責不限於說只有這個法源而已如作偽證者一同\n\n20\n00:07:08,565 --> 00:07:30,405\n我國過去在監察院實施調查權的相關規範中都完全沒有相關的一個規定但在4至585號解釋中我剛才講的他已經承認應該有這類的一個刑罰所以其實立法院的行使調查權跟監察院是不同的我們立法院如果要行使國會調查權我們就必須對於這種\n\n21\n00:07:33,148 --> 00:07:33,288\n二）委員\n\n22\n00:07:52,694 --> 00:08:18,320\n其實我想講的就是說其實我們為什麼要抗我發覺民進黨一直在抗拒這些國會無法的一個立法抗拒我們的國會的每位立法委員擁有這些聽證調查權以及對於我們的相關的官員如果為拒絕陳述不願意提供資料我們要刻意相關的一個懲處不限於說只是行政法院而已甚至刑責也是OK的\n\n23\n00:08:20,325 --> 00:08:20,605\n議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具\n\n24\n00:08:45,992 --> 00:09:06,419\n五八號解釋作為基礎再去做這個。七十六三三號解釋也認為說我們裁罰就是我們行使裁罰不管是用刑法或者是用行政法來只要他的要件及標準有明確而且讓受規範者得益見其行為的可罰性\n\n25\n00:09:07,279 --> 00:09:29,550\n且其規定得經司法審查加以確認,這個就符合我們刑法23條比例原則以及法律的明確性原則的要求。所以相關的解釋也做這樣子的一個說法。所以沒有違憲的問題吧,民主黨,因為你答的還是很曖昧,到底有沒有,如果用刑法來去處罰,你認為有違憲嗎?\n\n26\n00:09:32,961 --> 00:09:35,883\n我本身是說必須在符合585號解釋的情況下做處理啦。\n\n27\n00:09:49,552 --> 00:10:03,282\n各位委員如果在整個立法過程當中,如果認為是要用刑法,那我們也尊重。以不了立場,我們不宜表示。我剛剛已經論述非常多了,其實也沒有違憲的問題啦。因為最後一個問題我還是要再次跟你請教我們總統的這個國情報告這部分。\n\n28\n00:10:13,669 --> 00:10:27,497\n我想我聽到很多民進黨的委員講說我們現在是總統制參照美國美國的總統只要來做國情諮詢做國情諮問之後他可以不接受詢問然後一直強調說總統來做國情報告接受我們委員的疑問疑答一直說違憲\n\n29\n00:10:37,704 --> 00:10:46,486\n你認了嗎?我上一次報告已經講很清楚。我們立法院有決定權。那你覺得說我們是什麼制的國家?我們現在是什麼制的國家?我們是雙首長制還是總統制?我們也不是雙首長制啦。\n\n30\n00:10:59,309 --> 00:11:24,846\n因為這個修憲以後也不像類似也不完全相同所以制度的設計上本身就不會...所以我們跟美國我們也不是總統制嘛我們也不是總統制嘛對不對所以我當天所提的報告也是給各位參考所以美國的這個所謂總統只來做這個國情的一個報告但是不接受就馬上就拍拍屁股就走了講完他就走了也不接受資訊跟我們憲法的設計是不一樣的嘛我當然\n\n31\n00:11:28,308 --> 00:11:28,408\n二）委員\n\n32\n00:11:46,283 --> 00:12:04,459\n他已經不是獨立行使職權的行政首長只是總統的幕僚長總統隨時認為說他的意見跟總統不一樣的話總統可以去馬上把他免除他的一個職務馬上可以換人了所以實際上我們現在的總統是有權無責啊所以難道我們代表人民的國會在他來做國情報告的時候我們沒有權利對他做一個詢問嗎\n\n33\n00:12:15,925 --> 00:12:40,023\n我當然報告過吧,你立法院有決定權嘛。是啊,那現在相關的法規都很明確啦。不管是徵修條文,立法院可以邀請他來做這個國情報告,或是立法院的職權行使法,四分之一的立法委員的請求可以邀請他來。我想這個都已經有很明確的一個相關的規範了嘛。所以總統必須來做國情報告吧。\n\n34\n00:12:41,121 --> 00:13:03,668\n我講賴清的總統他自己也答應了啊說他願意來國會但是只對於說我們尋答的方式他有意見但是我們是認為急問急答才符合我們現在的國情總統不能有權無責總統有必要接受我們立法委員的質詢而且要採急問急答的方式才有意義\n\n35\n00:13:05,322 --> 00:13:09,654\n委員長你同意嗎?這是我們院裡面自己做決定的一個方式。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5919\t23509\t謝謝主席我想我還是要重申今天我們這個國會改革無法的改革尤其是國會的聽證調查權我想民進黨一直主張說這個部分什麼擴權該護士要委員講我們擴權我想這嚴重了\n27751\t46457\t此部分大家可以討論,但是絕對沒有所謂的立法院擴權這樣子的一個說法,這是不存在的。好,我們先講這個立法院院長的記名投票這部分。那我想這個記名投票這部分,到底學界還有存有爭議?\n48058\t62208\t但是我要這個想說的就是要告訴民眾的基於民意責任及陽光政治的理念立法委員在立法院內的表決應該要公開要用顯明的方式\n63448\t89543\t所以包含了競民投票、唱名表決、舉手表決等屬於讓我們的民眾得知我們身為國會議員我們代表民意我們這個投票的方式所以政府院長的選舉也應該採取競民投票的方式那比較妥當也可以落實資訊公開讓我們的人民充分了解民意代表的決策\n91901\t92522\t議員楊瓊瓔,您同意嗎?議員楊瓊瓔,您同意嗎?\n118115\t118355\t二）委員\n135905\t136085\t議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具\n157132\t175012\t這跟我們人民的行使參政權選舉公職人員性質截然是不同的,所以不能相提並論。因此與憲法第129條根本沒有連帶關係,所以不一定要採取吳敬明投票的方式。\n177192\t200748\t我這樣說對嗎?因為他跟林委員報告因為林委員也是學法啦因為當時是大法官大法官像我們吳老師吳剛他就認為這個是沒有但是李偉忠教授中興大學李偉忠教授他認為是要每一位教授他的看法我們都尊重但是我現在覺得我們立法委員也要有自己的看法嘛\n202029\t223852\t所以我們看法認為這個根本沒有違憲的問題。所以大家都沒有正義。你會看法也一樣嘛,沒有違憲嘛。好,謝謝。來,現在來講國會調查權啦。那我想這個我先直接請教這個秘書長,你對於我們立法委員擁有國會調查權,你是肯定,持肯定的態度還是否定的態度?\n226707\t238923\t五八五已經解釋了,我們有立法院調查權了。是,我想五八五好解釋他也講得很清楚,就是說立法院為有效行使憲法所賦予的立法職權\n240205\t244087\t主動獲取行使職權所需的相關資訊並能充分思辨、審慎決定以善盡民意代表的職責也發揮權力分立與制衡的機能\n257193\t275923\t但是該號解釋也強調,就是說我們立法院行使調查權的方式並不以要求有機關就立法院行使職權所涉及的事項提供參考資料為限。就是我們還可以向他調閱文件的原本。\n277285\t278306\t並得對違反協助調查義務者處以法源的處分。\n295559\t311838\t並於這個必要的範圍內是以合理的強制手段使立法院的調查權的行使更為完整並有助立法院職權行使過程中相關資訊的收集所以立法院聽證權有法制化的必要\n314008\t341587\t所以民主黨根據我剛才講的這段陳述就是也是4585號他的一個解釋的一個精神的一個的主要的意旨所以你也是贊同國會要有調查權那另外就是說從這段意旨裡面也認為說我們國會要有這個把這個藐視國會罪這部分要這個有法制化這個你認同嗎?\n343164\t353812\t我認同但是因為這一個因為我們裡面這裡面原來這個調查局裡面剛才林委剛才也練過這58號解釋裡面的內容所以我們法治局在當時在做這個報告的時候也請了好幾個學者專家來對於這一個\n366254\t387910\t議員楊瓊瓔\n389081\t398046\t世界各國的立法例我們看一下其實我們看各國的國會調查權可以知道不論是法國的國會職權行使法美國的議事規則德國的聯邦議事規則或者日本的議會政研法\n405191\t427625\t多有國會強制權的附屬武器。原則上就是調查實施的時候受調查者如果沒有正當理由拒絕證言或者提供這個拒絕提供相關的資訊文件者應受有懲處一如罰金或刑責有罰金也有刑責不限於說只有這個法源而已如作偽證者一同\n428565\t450405\t我國過去在監察院實施調查權的相關規範中都完全沒有相關的一個規定但在4至585號解釋中我剛才講的他已經承認應該有這類的一個刑罰所以其實立法院的行使調查權跟監察院是不同的我們立法院如果要行使國會調查權我們就必須對於這種\n453148\t453288\t二）委員\n472694\t498320\t其實我想講的就是說其實我們為什麼要抗我發覺民進黨一直在抗拒這些國會無法的一個立法抗拒我們的國會的每位立法委員擁有這些聽證調查權以及對於我們的相關的官員如果為拒絕陳述不願意提供資料我們要刻意相關的一個懲處不限於說只是行政法院而已甚至刑責也是OK的\n500325\t500605\t議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具\n525992\t546419\t五八號解釋作為基礎再去做這個。七十六三三號解釋也認為說我們裁罰就是我們行使裁罰不管是用刑法或者是用行政法來只要他的要件及標準有明確而且讓受規範者得益見其行為的可罰性\n547279\t569550\t且其規定得經司法審查加以確認,這個就符合我們刑法23條比例原則以及法律的明確性原則的要求。所以相關的解釋也做這樣子的一個說法。所以沒有違憲的問題吧,民主黨,因為你答的還是很曖昧,到底有沒有,如果用刑法來去處罰,你認為有違憲嗎?\n572961\t575883\t我本身是說必須在符合585號解釋的情況下做處理啦。\n589552\t603282\t各位委員如果在整個立法過程當中,如果認為是要用刑法,那我們也尊重。以不了立場,我們不宜表示。我剛剛已經論述非常多了,其實也沒有違憲的問題啦。因為最後一個問題我還是要再次跟你請教我們總統的這個國情報告這部分。\n613669\t627497\t我想我聽到很多民進黨的委員講說我們現在是總統制參照美國美國的總統只要來做國情諮詢做國情諮問之後他可以不接受詢問然後一直強調說總統來做國情報告接受我們委員的疑問疑答一直說違憲\n637704\t646486\t你認了嗎?我上一次報告已經講很清楚。我們立法院有決定權。那你覺得說我們是什麼制的國家?我們現在是什麼制的國家?我們是雙首長制還是總統制?我們也不是雙首長制啦。\n659309\t684846\t因為這個修憲以後也不像類似也不完全相同所以制度的設計上本身就不會...所以我們跟美國我們也不是總統制嘛我們也不是總統制嘛對不對所以我當天所提的報告也是給各位參考所以美國的這個所謂總統只來做這個國情的一個報告但是不接受就馬上就拍拍屁股就走了講完他就走了也不接受資訊跟我們憲法的設計是不一樣的嘛我當然\n688308\t688408\t二）委員\n706283\t724459\t他已經不是獨立行使職權的行政首長只是總統的幕僚長總統隨時認為說他的意見跟總統不一樣的話總統可以去馬上把他免除他的一個職務馬上可以換人了所以實際上我們現在的總統是有權無責啊所以難道我們代表人民的國會在他來做國情報告的時候我們沒有權利對他做一個詢問嗎\n735925\t760023\t我當然報告過吧,你立法院有決定權嘛。是啊,那現在相關的法規都很明確啦。不管是徵修條文,立法院可以邀請他來做這個國情報告,或是立法院的職權行使法,四分之一的立法委員的請求可以邀請他來。我想這個都已經有很明確的一個相關的規範了嘛。所以總統必須來做國情報告吧。\n761121\t783668\t我講賴清的總統他自己也答應了啊說他願意來國會但是只對於說我們尋答的方式他有意見但是我們是認為急問急答才符合我們現在的國情總統不能有權無責總統有必要接受我們立法委員的質詢而且要採急問急答的方式才有意義\n785322\t789654\t委員長你同意嗎?這是我們院裡面自己做決定的一個方式。\n","txt":"謝謝主席我想我還是要重申今天我們這個國會改革無法的改革尤其是國會的聽證調查權我想民進黨一直主張說這個部分什麼擴權該護士要委員講我們擴權我想這嚴重了\n此部分大家可以討論,但是絕對沒有所謂的立法院擴權這樣子的一個說法,這是不存在的。好,我們先講這個立法院院長的記名投票這部分。那我想這個記名投票這部分,到底學界還有存有爭議?\n但是我要這個想說的就是要告訴民眾的基於民意責任及陽光政治的理念立法委員在立法院內的表決應該要公開要用顯明的方式\n所以包含了競民投票、唱名表決、舉手表決等屬於讓我們的民眾得知我們身為國會議員我們代表民意我們這個投票的方式所以政府院長的選舉也應該採取競民投票的方式那比較妥當也可以落實資訊公開讓我們的人民充分了解民意代表的決策\n議員楊瓊瓔,您同意嗎?議員楊瓊瓔,您同意嗎?\n二）委員\n議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具\n這跟我們人民的行使參政權選舉公職人員性質截然是不同的,所以不能相提並論。因此與憲法第129條根本沒有連帶關係,所以不一定要採取吳敬明投票的方式。\n我這樣說對嗎?因為他跟林委員報告因為林委員也是學法啦因為當時是大法官大法官像我們吳老師吳剛他就認為這個是沒有但是李偉忠教授中興大學李偉忠教授他認為是要每一位教授他的看法我們都尊重但是我現在覺得我們立法委員也要有自己的看法嘛\n所以我們看法認為這個根本沒有違憲的問題。所以大家都沒有正義。你會看法也一樣嘛,沒有違憲嘛。好,謝謝。來,現在來講國會調查權啦。那我想這個我先直接請教這個秘書長,你對於我們立法委員擁有國會調查權,你是肯定,持肯定的態度還是否定的態度?\n五八五已經解釋了,我們有立法院調查權了。是,我想五八五好解釋他也講得很清楚,就是說立法院為有效行使憲法所賦予的立法職權\n主動獲取行使職權所需的相關資訊並能充分思辨、審慎決定以善盡民意代表的職責也發揮權力分立與制衡的機能\n但是該號解釋也強調,就是說我們立法院行使調查權的方式並不以要求有機關就立法院行使職權所涉及的事項提供參考資料為限。就是我們還可以向他調閱文件的原本。\n並得對違反協助調查義務者處以法源的處分。\n並於這個必要的範圍內是以合理的強制手段使立法院的調查權的行使更為完整並有助立法院職權行使過程中相關資訊的收集所以立法院聽證權有法制化的必要\n所以民主黨根據我剛才講的這段陳述就是也是4585號他的一個解釋的一個精神的一個的主要的意旨所以你也是贊同國會要有調查權那另外就是說從這段意旨裡面也認為說我們國會要有這個把這個藐視國會罪這部分要這個有法制化這個你認同嗎?\n我認同但是因為這一個因為我們裡面這裡面原來這個調查局裡面剛才林委剛才也練過這58號解釋裡面的內容所以我們法治局在當時在做這個報告的時候也請了好幾個學者專家來對於這一個\n議員楊瓊瓔\n世界各國的立法例我們看一下其實我們看各國的國會調查權可以知道不論是法國的國會職權行使法美國的議事規則德國的聯邦議事規則或者日本的議會政研法\n多有國會強制權的附屬武器。原則上就是調查實施的時候受調查者如果沒有正當理由拒絕證言或者提供這個拒絕提供相關的資訊文件者應受有懲處一如罰金或刑責有罰金也有刑責不限於說只有這個法源而已如作偽證者一同\n我國過去在監察院實施調查權的相關規範中都完全沒有相關的一個規定但在4至585號解釋中我剛才講的他已經承認應該有這類的一個刑罰所以其實立法院的行使調查權跟監察院是不同的我們立法院如果要行使國會調查權我們就必須對於這種\n二）委員\n其實我想講的就是說其實我們為什麼要抗我發覺民進黨一直在抗拒這些國會無法的一個立法抗拒我們的國會的每位立法委員擁有這些聽證調查權以及對於我們的相關的官員如果為拒絕陳述不願意提供資料我們要刻意相關的一個懲處不限於說只是行政法院而已甚至刑責也是OK的\n議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具\n五八號解釋作為基礎再去做這個。七十六三三號解釋也認為說我們裁罰就是我們行使裁罰不管是用刑法或者是用行政法來只要他的要件及標準有明確而且讓受規範者得益見其行為的可罰性\n且其規定得經司法審查加以確認,這個就符合我們刑法23條比例原則以及法律的明確性原則的要求。所以相關的解釋也做這樣子的一個說法。所以沒有違憲的問題吧,民主黨,因為你答的還是很曖昧,到底有沒有,如果用刑法來去處罰,你認為有違憲嗎?\n我本身是說必須在符合585號解釋的情況下做處理啦。\n各位委員如果在整個立法過程當中,如果認為是要用刑法,那我們也尊重。以不了立場,我們不宜表示。我剛剛已經論述非常多了,其實也沒有違憲的問題啦。因為最後一個問題我還是要再次跟你請教我們總統的這個國情報告這部分。\n我想我聽到很多民進黨的委員講說我們現在是總統制參照美國美國的總統只要來做國情諮詢做國情諮問之後他可以不接受詢問然後一直強調說總統來做國情報告接受我們委員的疑問疑答一直說違憲\n你認了嗎?我上一次報告已經講很清楚。我們立法院有決定權。那你覺得說我們是什麼制的國家?我們現在是什麼制的國家?我們是雙首長制還是總統制?我們也不是雙首長制啦。\n因為這個修憲以後也不像類似也不完全相同所以制度的設計上本身就不會...所以我們跟美國我們也不是總統制嘛我們也不是總統制嘛對不對所以我當天所提的報告也是給各位參考所以美國的這個所謂總統只來做這個國情的一個報告但是不接受就馬上就拍拍屁股就走了講完他就走了也不接受資訊跟我們憲法的設計是不一樣的嘛我當然\n二）委員\n他已經不是獨立行使職權的行政首長只是總統的幕僚長總統隨時認為說他的意見跟總統不一樣的話總統可以去馬上把他免除他的一個職務馬上可以換人了所以實際上我們現在的總統是有權無責啊所以難道我們代表人民的國會在他來做國情報告的時候我們沒有權利對他做一個詢問嗎\n我當然報告過吧,你立法院有決定權嘛。是啊,那現在相關的法規都很明確啦。不管是徵修條文,立法院可以邀請他來做這個國情報告,或是立法院的職權行使法,四分之一的立法委員的請求可以邀請他來。我想這個都已經有很明確的一個相關的規範了嘛。所以總統必須來做國情報告吧。\n我講賴清的總統他自己也答應了啊說他願意來國會但是只對於說我們尋答的方式他有意見但是我們是認為急問急答才符合我們現在的國情總統不能有權無責總統有必要接受我們立法委員的質詢而且要採急問急答的方式才有意義\n委員長你同意嗎?這是我們院裡面自己做決定的一個方式。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.919 --> 00:23.509\n謝謝主席我想我還是要重申今天我們這個國會改革無法的改革尤其是國會的聽證調查權我想民進黨一直主張說這個部分什麼擴權該護士要委員講我們擴權我想這嚴重了\n\n00:27.751 --> 00:46.457\n此部分大家可以討論,但是絕對沒有所謂的立法院擴權這樣子的一個說法,這是不存在的。好,我們先講這個立法院院長的記名投票這部分。那我想這個記名投票這部分,到底學界還有存有爭議?\n\n00:48.058 --> 01:02.208\n但是我要這個想說的就是要告訴民眾的基於民意責任及陽光政治的理念立法委員在立法院內的表決應該要公開要用顯明的方式\n\n01:03.448 --> 01:29.543\n所以包含了競民投票、唱名表決、舉手表決等屬於讓我們的民眾得知我們身為國會議員我們代表民意我們這個投票的方式所以政府院長的選舉也應該採取競民投票的方式那比較妥當也可以落實資訊公開讓我們的人民充分了解民意代表的決策\n\n01:31.901 --> 01:32.522\n議員楊瓊瓔,您同意嗎?議員楊瓊瓔,您同意嗎?\n\n01:58.115 --> 01:58.355\n二）委員\n\n02:15.905 --> 02:16.085\n議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具\n\n02:37.132 --> 02:55.012\n這跟我們人民的行使參政權選舉公職人員性質截然是不同的,所以不能相提並論。因此與憲法第129條根本沒有連帶關係,所以不一定要採取吳敬明投票的方式。\n\n02:57.192 --> 03:20.748\n我這樣說對嗎?因為他跟林委員報告因為林委員也是學法啦因為當時是大法官大法官像我們吳老師吳剛他就認為這個是沒有但是李偉忠教授中興大學李偉忠教授他認為是要每一位教授他的看法我們都尊重但是我現在覺得我們立法委員也要有自己的看法嘛\n\n03:22.029 --> 03:43.852\n所以我們看法認為這個根本沒有違憲的問題。所以大家都沒有正義。你會看法也一樣嘛,沒有違憲嘛。好,謝謝。來,現在來講國會調查權啦。那我想這個我先直接請教這個秘書長,你對於我們立法委員擁有國會調查權,你是肯定,持肯定的態度還是否定的態度?\n\n03:46.707 --> 03:58.923\n五八五已經解釋了,我們有立法院調查權了。是,我想五八五好解釋他也講得很清楚,就是說立法院為有效行使憲法所賦予的立法職權\n\n04:00.205 --> 04:04.087\n主動獲取行使職權所需的相關資訊並能充分思辨、審慎決定以善盡民意代表的職責也發揮權力分立與制衡的機能\n\n04:17.193 --> 04:35.923\n但是該號解釋也強調,就是說我們立法院行使調查權的方式並不以要求有機關就立法院行使職權所涉及的事項提供參考資料為限。就是我們還可以向他調閱文件的原本。\n\n04:37.285 --> 04:38.306\n並得對違反協助調查義務者處以法源的處分。\n\n04:55.559 --> 05:11.838\n並於這個必要的範圍內是以合理的強制手段使立法院的調查權的行使更為完整並有助立法院職權行使過程中相關資訊的收集所以立法院聽證權有法制化的必要\n\n05:14.008 --> 05:41.587\n所以民主黨根據我剛才講的這段陳述就是也是4585號他的一個解釋的一個精神的一個的主要的意旨所以你也是贊同國會要有調查權那另外就是說從這段意旨裡面也認為說我們國會要有這個把這個藐視國會罪這部分要這個有法制化這個你認同嗎?\n\n05:43.164 --> 05:53.812\n我認同但是因為這一個因為我們裡面這裡面原來這個調查局裡面剛才林委剛才也練過這58號解釋裡面的內容所以我們法治局在當時在做這個報告的時候也請了好幾個學者專家來對於這一個\n\n06:29.081 --> 06:38.046\n世界各國的立法例我們看一下其實我們看各國的國會調查權可以知道不論是法國的國會職權行使法美國的議事規則德國的聯邦議事規則或者日本的議會政研法\n\n06:45.191 --> 07:07.625\n多有國會強制權的附屬武器。原則上就是調查實施的時候受調查者如果沒有正當理由拒絕證言或者提供這個拒絕提供相關的資訊文件者應受有懲處一如罰金或刑責有罰金也有刑責不限於說只有這個法源而已如作偽證者一同\n\n07:08.565 --> 07:30.405\n我國過去在監察院實施調查權的相關規範中都完全沒有相關的一個規定但在4至585號解釋中我剛才講的他已經承認應該有這類的一個刑罰所以其實立法院的行使調查權跟監察院是不同的我們立法院如果要行使國會調查權我們就必須對於這種\n\n07:33.148 --> 07:33.288\n二）委員\n\n07:52.694 --> 08:18.320\n其實我想講的就是說其實我們為什麼要抗我發覺民進黨一直在抗拒這些國會無法的一個立法抗拒我們的國會的每位立法委員擁有這些聽證調查權以及對於我們的相關的官員如果為拒絕陳述不願意提供資料我們要刻意相關的一個懲處不限於說只是行政法院而已甚至刑責也是OK的\n\n08:20.325 --> 08:20.605\n議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具\n\n08:45.992 --> 09:06.419\n五八號解釋作為基礎再去做這個。七十六三三號解釋也認為說我們裁罰就是我們行使裁罰不管是用刑法或者是用行政法來只要他的要件及標準有明確而且讓受規範者得益見其行為的可罰性\n\n09:07.279 --> 09:29.550\n且其規定得經司法審查加以確認,這個就符合我們刑法23條比例原則以及法律的明確性原則的要求。所以相關的解釋也做這樣子的一個說法。所以沒有違憲的問題吧,民主黨,因為你答的還是很曖昧,到底有沒有,如果用刑法來去處罰,你認為有違憲嗎?\n\n09:32.961 --> 09:35.883\n我本身是說必須在符合585號解釋的情況下做處理啦。\n\n09:49.552 --> 10:03.282\n各位委員如果在整個立法過程當中,如果認為是要用刑法,那我們也尊重。以不了立場,我們不宜表示。我剛剛已經論述非常多了,其實也沒有違憲的問題啦。因為最後一個問題我還是要再次跟你請教我們總統的這個國情報告這部分。\n\n10:13.669 --> 10:27.497\n我想我聽到很多民進黨的委員講說我們現在是總統制參照美國美國的總統只要來做國情諮詢做國情諮問之後他可以不接受詢問然後一直強調說總統來做國情報告接受我們委員的疑問疑答一直說違憲\n\n10:37.704 --> 10:46.486\n你認了嗎?我上一次報告已經講很清楚。我們立法院有決定權。那你覺得說我們是什麼制的國家?我們現在是什麼制的國家?我們是雙首長制還是總統制?我們也不是雙首長制啦。\n\n10:59.309 --> 11:24.846\n因為這個修憲以後也不像類似也不完全相同所以制度的設計上本身就不會...所以我們跟美國我們也不是總統制嘛我們也不是總統制嘛對不對所以我當天所提的報告也是給各位參考所以美國的這個所謂總統只來做這個國情的一個報告但是不接受就馬上就拍拍屁股就走了講完他就走了也不接受資訊跟我們憲法的設計是不一樣的嘛我當然\n\n11:28.308 --> 11:28.408\n二）委員\n\n11:46.283 --> 12:04.459\n他已經不是獨立行使職權的行政首長只是總統的幕僚長總統隨時認為說他的意見跟總統不一樣的話總統可以去馬上把他免除他的一個職務馬上可以換人了所以實際上我們現在的總統是有權無責啊所以難道我們代表人民的國會在他來做國情報告的時候我們沒有權利對他做一個詢問嗎\n\n12:15.925 --> 12:40.023\n我當然報告過吧,你立法院有決定權嘛。是啊,那現在相關的法規都很明確啦。不管是徵修條文,立法院可以邀請他來做這個國情報告,或是立法院的職權行使法,四分之一的立法委員的請求可以邀請他來。我想這個都已經有很明確的一個相關的規範了嘛。所以總統必須來做國情報告吧。\n\n12:41.121 --> 13:03.668\n我講賴清的總統他自己也答應了啊說他願意來國會但是只對於說我們尋答的方式他有意見但是我們是認為急問急答才符合我們現在的國情總統不能有權無責總統有必要接受我們立法委員的質詢而且要採急問急答的方式才有意義\n\n13:05.322 --> 13:09.654\n委員長你同意嗎?這是我們院裡面自己做決定的一個方式。\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.919,"end":23.509,"text":"謝謝主席我想我還是要重申今天我們這個國會改革無法的改革尤其是國會的聽證調查權我想民進黨一直主張說這個部分什麼擴權該護士要委員講我們擴權我想這嚴重了"},{"start":27.751,"end":46.457,"text":"此部分大家可以討論,但是絕對沒有所謂的立法院擴權這樣子的一個說法,這是不存在的。好,我們先講這個立法院院長的記名投票這部分。那我想這個記名投票這部分,到底學界還有存有爭議?"},{"start":48.058,"end":62.208,"text":"但是我要這個想說的就是要告訴民眾的基於民意責任及陽光政治的理念立法委員在立法院內的表決應該要公開要用顯明的方式"},{"start":63.448,"end":89.543,"text":"所以包含了競民投票、唱名表決、舉手表決等屬於讓我們的民眾得知我們身為國會議員我們代表民意我們這個投票的方式所以政府院長的選舉也應該採取競民投票的方式那比較妥當也可以落實資訊公開讓我們的人民充分了解民意代表的決策"},{"start":91.901,"end":92.522,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔,您同意嗎?議員楊瓊瓔,您同意嗎?"},{"start":118.115,"end":118.355,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":135.905,"end":136.085,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具"},{"start":157.132,"end":175.012,"text":"這跟我們人民的行使參政權選舉公職人員性質截然是不同的,所以不能相提並論。因此與憲法第129條根本沒有連帶關係,所以不一定要採取吳敬明投票的方式。"},{"start":177.192,"end":200.748,"text":"我這樣說對嗎?因為他跟林委員報告因為林委員也是學法啦因為當時是大法官大法官像我們吳老師吳剛他就認為這個是沒有但是李偉忠教授中興大學李偉忠教授他認為是要每一位教授他的看法我們都尊重但是我現在覺得我們立法委員也要有自己的看法嘛"},{"start":202.029,"end":223.852,"text":"所以我們看法認為這個根本沒有違憲的問題。所以大家都沒有正義。你會看法也一樣嘛,沒有違憲嘛。好,謝謝。來,現在來講國會調查權啦。那我想這個我先直接請教這個秘書長,你對於我們立法委員擁有國會調查權,你是肯定,持肯定的態度還是否定的態度?"},{"start":226.707,"end":238.923,"text":"五八五已經解釋了,我們有立法院調查權了。是,我想五八五好解釋他也講得很清楚,就是說立法院為有效行使憲法所賦予的立法職權"},{"start":240.205,"end":244.087,"text":"主動獲取行使職權所需的相關資訊並能充分思辨、審慎決定以善盡民意代表的職責也發揮權力分立與制衡的機能"},{"start":257.193,"end":275.923,"text":"但是該號解釋也強調,就是說我們立法院行使調查權的方式並不以要求有機關就立法院行使職權所涉及的事項提供參考資料為限。就是我們還可以向他調閱文件的原本。"},{"start":277.285,"end":278.306,"text":"並得對違反協助調查義務者處以法源的處分。"},{"start":295.559,"end":311.838,"text":"並於這個必要的範圍內是以合理的強制手段使立法院的調查權的行使更為完整並有助立法院職權行使過程中相關資訊的收集所以立法院聽證權有法制化的必要"},{"start":314.008,"end":341.587,"text":"所以民主黨根據我剛才講的這段陳述就是也是4585號他的一個解釋的一個精神的一個的主要的意旨所以你也是贊同國會要有調查權那另外就是說從這段意旨裡面也認為說我們國會要有這個把這個藐視國會罪這部分要這個有法制化這個你認同嗎?"},{"start":343.164,"end":353.812,"text":"我認同但是因為這一個因為我們裡面這裡面原來這個調查局裡面剛才林委剛才也練過這58號解釋裡面的內容所以我們法治局在當時在做這個報告的時候也請了好幾個學者專家來對於這一個"},{"start":366.254,"end":387.91,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔"},{"start":389.081,"end":398.046,"text":"世界各國的立法例我們看一下其實我們看各國的國會調查權可以知道不論是法國的國會職權行使法美國的議事規則德國的聯邦議事規則或者日本的議會政研法"},{"start":405.191,"end":427.625,"text":"多有國會強制權的附屬武器。原則上就是調查實施的時候受調查者如果沒有正當理由拒絕證言或者提供這個拒絕提供相關的資訊文件者應受有懲處一如罰金或刑責有罰金也有刑責不限於說只有這個法源而已如作偽證者一同"},{"start":428.565,"end":450.405,"text":"我國過去在監察院實施調查權的相關規範中都完全沒有相關的一個規定但在4至585號解釋中我剛才講的他已經承認應該有這類的一個刑罰所以其實立法院的行使調查權跟監察院是不同的我們立法院如果要行使國會調查權我們就必須對於這種"},{"start":453.148,"end":453.288,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":472.694,"end":498.32,"text":"其實我想講的就是說其實我們為什麼要抗我發覺民進黨一直在抗拒這些國會無法的一個立法抗拒我們的國會的每位立法委員擁有這些聽證調查權以及對於我們的相關的官員如果為拒絕陳述不願意提供資料我們要刻意相關的一個懲處不限於說只是行政法院而已甚至刑責也是OK的"},{"start":500.325,"end":500.605,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具"},{"start":525.992,"end":546.419,"text":"五八號解釋作為基礎再去做這個。七十六三三號解釋也認為說我們裁罰就是我們行使裁罰不管是用刑法或者是用行政法來只要他的要件及標準有明確而且讓受規範者得益見其行為的可罰性"},{"start":547.279,"end":569.55,"text":"且其規定得經司法審查加以確認,這個就符合我們刑法23條比例原則以及法律的明確性原則的要求。所以相關的解釋也做這樣子的一個說法。所以沒有違憲的問題吧,民主黨,因為你答的還是很曖昧,到底有沒有,如果用刑法來去處罰,你認為有違憲嗎?"},{"start":572.961,"end":575.883,"text":"我本身是說必須在符合585號解釋的情況下做處理啦。"},{"start":589.552,"end":603.282,"text":"各位委員如果在整個立法過程當中,如果認為是要用刑法,那我們也尊重。以不了立場,我們不宜表示。我剛剛已經論述非常多了,其實也沒有違憲的問題啦。因為最後一個問題我還是要再次跟你請教我們總統的這個國情報告這部分。"},{"start":613.669,"end":627.497,"text":"我想我聽到很多民進黨的委員講說我們現在是總統制參照美國美國的總統只要來做國情諮詢做國情諮問之後他可以不接受詢問然後一直強調說總統來做國情報告接受我們委員的疑問疑答一直說違憲"},{"start":637.704,"end":646.486,"text":"你認了嗎?我上一次報告已經講很清楚。我們立法院有決定權。那你覺得說我們是什麼制的國家?我們現在是什麼制的國家?我們是雙首長制還是總統制?我們也不是雙首長制啦。"},{"start":659.309,"end":684.846,"text":"因為這個修憲以後也不像類似也不完全相同所以制度的設計上本身就不會...所以我們跟美國我們也不是總統制嘛我們也不是總統制嘛對不對所以我當天所提的報告也是給各位參考所以美國的這個所謂總統只來做這個國情的一個報告但是不接受就馬上就拍拍屁股就走了講完他就走了也不接受資訊跟我們憲法的設計是不一樣的嘛我當然"},{"start":688.308,"end":688.408,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":706.283,"end":724.459,"text":"他已經不是獨立行使職權的行政首長只是總統的幕僚長總統隨時認為說他的意見跟總統不一樣的話總統可以去馬上把他免除他的一個職務馬上可以換人了所以實際上我們現在的總統是有權無責啊所以難道我們代表人民的國會在他來做國情報告的時候我們沒有權利對他做一個詢問嗎"},{"start":735.925,"end":760.023,"text":"我當然報告過吧,你立法院有決定權嘛。是啊,那現在相關的法規都很明確啦。不管是徵修條文,立法院可以邀請他來做這個國情報告,或是立法院的職權行使法,四分之一的立法委員的請求可以邀請他來。我想這個都已經有很明確的一個相關的規範了嘛。所以總統必須來做國情報告吧。"},{"start":761.121,"end":783.668,"text":"我講賴清的總統他自己也答應了啊說他願意來國會但是只對於說我們尋答的方式他有意見但是我們是認為急問急答才符合我們現在的國情總統不能有權無責總統有必要接受我們立法委員的質詢而且要採急問急答的方式才有意義"},{"start":785.322,"end":789.654,"text":"委員長你同意嗎?這是我們院裡面自己做決定的一個方式。"}]}}}}