{"id":150800,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150800","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0c417bbb98774f78af7510a295be7434bf8ba9b0039caa7a631a3708ee20255e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"11:57:15 - 12:13:04","影片長度":"00:15:49","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程。(二)如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策。(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形。(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展。(五)原住民族學校法立法推動情形。(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形。(七)如何改善原住民族語言推動組織之需求。(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討。(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」。(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃。(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形。(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之困境。(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形。(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並落實老幼共學政策。(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育規劃。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":949,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:13:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:57:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（11時57分）謝謝，請夷將主委。"],["主席：有請夷將主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：主委好。剛才有委員提到你們有專刊是不是？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是。"],["陳委員瑩：你說專刊是例行業務嘛！但剛剛前一位發言的黃捷委員也稍微提到，我再補充一下。專刊雖然是例行要編輯、出刊的，但主委在封面上絕對不是例行性吧？印象中，我從來沒有看到夷將主委出現在原民會任何刊物封面上，有嗎？你會在專刊封面上嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：專刊沒有。"],["陳委員瑩：過去的主委中，哪一位曾刊在封面上嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有的專刊封面是沒有照片的，有照片的才是……"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！我剛才看到你們有很多本嘛！要不要拿起來晃一下讓我看看？你們有很多本專刊封面上都沒有主委玉照，對不對？在我印象中，也都沒有看到夷將主委出現在任何專刊、像這麼大一張，而且上面還有很好的標題，叫作「傳奇原住民公務人員」。如果林江義主委得到這樣的封號，請問夷將主委，你要叫什麼？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：沒有……"],["陳委員瑩：你應該沒有特別規劃要設計吧？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對於這個名稱，我們還沒有定案啦！"],["陳委員瑩：喔！還沒定案？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對。"],["陳委員瑩：所以還沒定案已經被拿出來施以鞭刑了喔？","當然也謝謝剛剛比較前面發言委員的關心跟指教啦！但是我想刮別人的鬍子之前先把自己的鬍子刮乾淨啦！如果真的要關心是不是好大喜功、是不是在作造神運動還是怎麼樣，這一本請前面發言的委員好好參考一下。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：不過，委員，我再補充說明一下。我記得本會四年專刊的照片、我想起來了，我們是把很多小朋友唱原住民歌謠的照片作為封面，那些都是都市的原住民小朋友。"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！但是絕對沒有這樣子的獨照，因為我沒有什麼印象。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們應該都是合照比較多。"],["陳委員瑩：如果有你的獨照，我會很注意看，但是沒有。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：沒關係，我不用獨照，我沒有要選舉，所以不用獨照。"],["陳委員瑩：好啦！反正一直講這個很沒有營養，我們講一點比較有營養的事情，我要關心一下原保地遭到占用，然後判決確定這個事情。主委，依照目前的規定，原保地可以有條件的讓漢人租用，但是原保地遭占用，而且被提起訴訟的，通常都是有非常惡劣的使用行為，對於這樣的占用行為，我非常支持原民會訴諸法律，讓法院來做公正的判決。不過現在問題來了，經過法院長時間的訴訟審理，對於那些有惡劣占用行為，而且判決確定者，地方代表會卻杯葛公所，排除占用的預算，然後還凍結你們給公所的經費，我想請教一下主委，遇到這樣的問題你們應該要怎麼因應？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：的確，有一些代表會有做這樣的處理，但是我們會用調整補助的方式來做處理。"],["陳委員瑩：調整補助的方式？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：就是執行的方式。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那我們再看看要怎麼調。依照原開辦法第二條的規定，原保地的管理機關是原民會，但是執行機關是鄉鎮市公所，如果執行機關沒有依照這個辦法來排除占用的情況，我覺得你們應該要有一套機制，本席的手上就有2個陳情案件，其實這2件陳情案件法院已經判決確定，但是公所就是打死不執行排除占用。我說的這2個個案，你們除了要好好處理以外，同時，本席也要要求你們要建立一套機制，不可以當地方不依法行政的時候，你們卻拿他們完全沒有辦法。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員，所以我們才會提出原住民保留地管理條例，當我們將辦法提升至法律的位階後，這些個案就不會再發生，但是很可惜這個條例去年沒有完成三讀。"],["陳委員瑩：對，我們還再繼續努力。主委，如果沒有原住民使用公有原保地，而且那些公有原保地也沒有公用用途的話，我們都應該要輔導原住民來取得所有權，這是原保地的精神，也是目前現行的規定，對不對？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對。"],["陳委員瑩：好，4年前我有接到一個陳情案，有一塊很大的公有原保地，它使用的其中一部分還有很多原住民在使用。他從4年前就向公所申請公告分配，這塊土地不論是中央或是地方都沒有公共使用的任何規劃，只因為這個鄉鎮長的個人喜好，因為他就是不想分配，所以就讓這位申請人一直等，等到後來怎麼樣？一樣，今年年初他就往生去當天使了，所以我想要請教一下主委，依照現行的辦法，如果這位鄉鎮市長沒有違反規定，但是他們可以這樣子嗎？可以嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：個案的部分，我們要瞭解個案的狀況後才可以找出解決的方式。"],["陳委員瑩：因為我的辦公室接到這個陳情案，他申請公告分配土地，他是現況使用人，他和這塊土地也有使用的淵源，可是卻因為鄉鎮市長的個人喜好，因為他就是不想分配，通常遇到這個首長，都是他想要分配給誰，他就分配給誰，所以這就是很大的問題。我講的這個個案已經申請很多年，至少我的辦公室就持續的追蹤了4年，針對這樣的問題，主委，你認為應該要怎麼樣積極的來解決？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員，以現行的法律授權，族人大概只能走行政救濟，如果有這個個案的話，請委員提供給我們，我們後續會來處理，要走行政救濟才可以處理。"],["陳委員瑩：因為已經過了4年，希望主委可以用力的幫幫忙。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好。"],["陳委員瑩：目前管理原保地的是原民會土管處，他們編制的人力相當少，我們看一下這個表，雖然我們有補助縣市政府鄉鎮市公所聘用人力，但是地方政府聘用的人力經常都是鄉鎮市公所安插的人馬，他們不只是專業上有問題，有時候、甚至連態度上也不一定符合大家的期待，甚至還有經常被更換的情形，導致業務都沒有辦法可以順利的辦理。申請增劃編原保地的案件，動輒都需要好幾年才會完成，就連我們辦公室關切的案件，有時候起碼平均也要一年半到二年才能完成，加上公所承辦人又經常更換，所以原保地的業務遲遲無法順利，如果原民會土管處改為「土地管理署」，就可以像國產署一樣在各地設置直屬的人力，所需的人力經費，目前原民會土管處常態性的預算大概是1億元，為求原保地各項業務可以順利的運作和推展，成立土地管理署可能是最好的方式，而且這樣也不會影響到漢人的權利，那漢人立委的反對力道應該就會比較小。","大家可以看一下這個表來比較一下，原民會管理的土地面積有26萬公頃；國產署23萬公頃；林務局150萬公頃，可是組織編制，原民會只有28人；林務局2,500人；國產署800人，你們1人抵千人用，所以平均下來，原民會1個人平均要管理將近1萬公頃，九千多、將近1萬公頃，相較於一樣都是管理土地面積二十幾萬公頃的國產署，人家有800人在管理，平均1個人大概是管理460公頃，所以這個部分是不是能夠在這個會期結束之前，你們是不是可以針對本席所提的建議來成立土管署？就是好好的算一下經費，包括你們補助給鄉鎮公所的，你們大概的算一下，然後好好的評估，計畫寫一寫，看這個方案到底可不可行？不然你看，我們今天第一次把這些數據全部都整理出來，大家一目了然嘛！主委？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好，這個部分我們後續會來評估可行性。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。不好意思，召委，是不是容許我再多問一個問題就好？你請坐，先休息。","我請歐斯董事長，主委請先休息。"],["主席：請歐斯董事長。"],["陳委員瑩：最後這一題我問完後就結束，謝謝召委。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：歐斯董事長，原民台過去承辦過多少次的原住民立委選舉公辦政見發表會？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，我們的統計是10次。"],["陳委員瑩：10次？有這麼多？立委的公辦政見發表會？我們4年才選一次，是4次？還是10次？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：4次。"],["陳委員瑩：哦！嚇死我了，好，那時候你們都還沒有成立。來，每一次立委選舉，甚至是總統選舉，通常會有幾次的政見發表會？就是一般、正常、常態的公辦政見。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：公辦和自辦各有1次。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有啦！公辦的政見發表會大部分只有1次，你不要亂講，什麼叫通常、還有什麼的？為什麼這一屆原住民立委選舉原民台辦了2次？這樣合理嗎？你要不要說明一下？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：因為公辦是中央選舉委員會委託我們，但是為了服務族人，所以我們自辦1次，所以變成有2次"],["陳委員瑩：好，1次是中選會給你們原民台經費，委託你們辦理。第2次是你們要服務族人，那你們是自己辦？還是委外辦？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：應該是我們電視台自己辦。"],["陳委員瑩：你們是自辦？還是委外辦理？你講清楚哦！"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我請執行長來說明。"],["何執行長明輝：報告委員，有關自辦的部分，部分我們是自己辦，但有一些部分因為我們沒有攝影棚，所以我們是租中視的攝影棚來用。"],["陳委員瑩：只有這個樣子？反正你們就是委外，因為有時候我們接到的電話也是你們委外的人打來的。我想是這樣子，因為原民台過去承辦過多次的立委選舉政見發表會，表示你們是有能力自己辦理的，而且現在通訊又很發達，你要服務族人可以透過網路或各種形式，也可以重播，不管是Line轉傳或是FB通通都可以。你說要服務族人，但是一樣的候選人、一樣的政見發表會，你們卻讓候選人疲於奔命，而且又花2次的錢來辦理2次，我覺得這個很奇妙，我不知道你們為什麼要這樣子處理？你們委外的程序是什麼？是公開招標？還是你們指定？"],["何執行長明輝：這個程序都是公開的，我們通常都是就地，因為我們是租用中視的場地，所以就近來進行會比較順利，程序上我們都是按照政府採購法來進行。"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！我知道程序上一定會把它弄到沒有什麼問題，我也不是要去質疑什麼，我只是好奇，為什麼一個政見發表會要辦理2次？"],["主席：董事長，是不是私底下去跟陳瑩委員做一個說明和報告，好嗎？陳瑩委員，不好意思，因為時間已經給你滿多了。"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！謝謝召委，我本來想說可以跟召委一樣把問題問完，因為我只關心3個問題。"],["主席：你問的是一樣的問題，他們也回答了。"],["陳委員瑩：一樣的問題？"],["主席：對啊！就是公開招標的問題，麻煩董事長和執行長。"],["陳委員瑩：不是公開招標的問題，是政見發表會為什麼要辦理2次？你沒有給我一個合理的解釋，你說要服務族人，但是我覺得這個理由很牽強，你們辦理的過程也很奇怪，就一定要……"],["主席：麻煩趕快跟陳瑩委員做一個說明，好不好？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們再跟委員說明。"],["陳委員瑩：這個問題我下次還是會繼續再問，直到你們講出合理的理由，怎麼樣做都是服務族人，我覺得很奇怪，那你下次會不會舉辦3次、4次、5次？要服務族人要不要辦個5次更好？對不對？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的質詢，謝謝董事長和執行長，你趕快到陳瑩委員的辦公室跟他說明一下，謝謝。","繼續請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","請伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草\n案」案。（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1132201_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"150800","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150800","tool":"pyannote","id":"150800-pyannote"},"job_id":"BOPeLdS13BzrswN3","queued_at":"2024-06-01 14:54:55","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-01 14:55:46","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150800"},{"time":"2024-06-01 14:55:47","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0c417bbb98774f78af7510a295be7434b5930330a539e53244a6488c8a1a4c8885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-01 14:56:14","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-01 14:56:16","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-06-01 14:56:31","msg":"status: 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{\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 940.843, \"end\": 940.863, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"董\", \"start\": 940.863, \"end\": 940.923, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 940.923, \"end\": 941.023, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 941.023, \"end\": 941.043, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:19,796 --> 00:00:22,901\n謝謝請那個宜將主委好也請宜將主委委員好\n\n2\n00:00:30,162 --> 00:00:55,273\n呃主委好剛剛講到就是你們那個專刊是不是是好專刊說是例行的這個業務嗎吼但是我想剛剛前面黃婕委員也有稍微提到吼那那我再補充一下我想專刊雖然是例行例行的這個要編輯吼要出刊的這個專刊嗎吼但是我想這個\n\n3\n00:00:57,472 --> 00:01:15,907\n主委在封面上絕對不是例行吧我印象中我從來沒有看到一將主委你有出現在原民會任何的刊物的這個封面上面有嗎你會在專刊的封面上嗎過去的主委有哪一位有在封面上嗎\n\n4\n00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:31,550\n有的是沒有封面是沒有照片的有照片的對我剛剛看你們很多本嗎要不要拿起來晃一下我看你們很多本上面都是沒有沒有那個主委的這個預照嗎\n\n5\n00:01:34,261 --> 00:01:55,218\n對不對我印象中印象中都沒有看到主委在有一將主委有出現在任何的專刊像這麼大一張而且上面還有很好的標題叫做傳奇原住民公務人員如果林江易主委有得到這樣的封號的時候請問一將主委你要叫什麼沒有你們應該沒有特別規劃去設計吧\n\n6\n00:02:01,314 --> 00:02:19,362\n因為這個名稱我們還沒有定案還沒定案所以你還沒定案已經被拿出來編型了當然也謝謝剛剛比較前面的委員的關心跟指教但是我想這個要刮別人鬍子之前先把自己的鬍子刮乾淨\n\n7\n00:02:20,703 --> 00:02:49,398\n他如果真的要關心是不是浩大喜功是不是在做造神運動還是怎麼樣我覺得這一本請前面的委員好好參考一下我再補充說明一下我記得我們四年的專刊的照片我想起來我們是把很多小朋友唱原住民的歌謠的照片作為封面的是都市的原住民小朋友但是就絕對沒有這樣子的獨照我就沒有什麼印象\n\n8\n00:02:49,878 --> 00:03:15,455\n我們應該都是合照比較多有你的獨照我會很注意看但是沒有沒關係我不用獨照因為我沒有要選舉所以不用獨照反正因為我覺得一直講這個也很沒有營養我們講一點比較有營養的事情來我想我要關心一下就是我們這個原保有地遭到佔用然後判決確定的這個事情\n\n9\n00:03:18,335 --> 00:03:37,460\n主委,原保地依照目前的規定是可以有條件的情況下讓漢人租用但是在原保地遭佔用而且被提起訴訟的通常都是非常惡劣的使用行為對於這樣佔用的行為我是非常支持原民會可以訴諸法律讓法院來做公正的判決\n\n10\n00:03:38,300 --> 00:04:02,311\n那不過現在現在的問題來了吼經過這個法院長時間的這個訴訟審理對於那些惡劣的佔用行為已經判決確定可是呢地方的代表會背個公所排除這個排除這個佔用的預算然後凍結你們給公所的經費我想請教一下主委像遇到這樣的問題的時候你們應該要怎麼因應的確有一些代表會來\n\n11\n00:04:08,683 --> 00:04:33,630\n做這樣的一個處理但是我們會會調整那個補助的這個方式來做處理調整補助的方式就執行的方式執行的方式好那我們再看看怎麼調然後那依照這個原開辦法的第二條規定原保地的管理機關是原民會但是呢執行機關是這個鄉鎮市公所那執行\n\n12\n00:04:34,831 --> 00:04:51,508\n機關如果沒有依照這個排除佔用的情況我覺得你們應該要有一套機制在本席的手上就有兩個陳情案件其實這個兩件陳情案件是法院已經判決確定的但是到公所\n\n13\n00:04:52,088 --> 00:05:17,026\n他打死就是不執行這個排除佔用那我說的這兩個個案你們要好好處理以外同時呢本席也要求你們要建立一套機制不可以地方不依法行政的時候呢你們卻拿他們完全沒有辦法所以委員所以我們才會提出我們的原住民保留地管理條例從辦法提升為法律位階以後這些個案的部分就不會再發生了\n\n14\n00:05:18,472 --> 00:05:38,206\n很可惜去年沒有完成三年對我們就還在繼續努力主委如果沒有原住民使用公有的原保地而且那些公有原保地沒有公用用途的話我們都應該要輔導讓原住民取得所有權這是原保地的精神嗎那也是目前現行的規定對不對\n\n15\n00:05:39,607 --> 00:06:07,466\n那四年前我有接到一個陳情案有一塊公有的原保地很大一塊那他使用的其中一部分還有很多的原住民也在使用那麼他從這個四年前就向公所申請這個公告分配那這塊土地不論是在中央或者是地方都沒有公共使用的任何規劃只因為這個鄉鎮長的個人喜好他就不想分配\n\n16\n00:06:08,146 --> 00:06:26,137\n好所以讓這位法基他一直等等等等到後來怎麼樣一樣今年年初就去當天使了就往生了所以我想請教一下主委依照現行的辦法似乎這個鄉鎮市長如果沒有違反規定但是他們可以這樣子嗎可以嗎因為\n\n17\n00:06:33,836 --> 00:06:38,907\n個案的部分我們要按照個案的狀況來做了解才可以找出解決的方式\n\n18\n00:06:40,475 --> 00:07:04,844\n因為我辦公室接到這個陳情案件他申請了這個公告分配的土地他是現況使用人那他跟這塊土地也有使用的淵源可是呢卻因為鄉鎮市長的個人喜好那他就不想分配就是不分配所以呢通常很多遇到他們這個首長想要分配給誰他就分配給誰\n\n19\n00:07:06,164 --> 00:07:19,168\n所以這個就是一個很大的問題那我講這個個案他申請了很多年至少在我辦公室我們持續在追蹤就已經追蹤了4年了那針對這樣的問題主委你認為怎麼樣可以積極來解決\n\n20\n00:07:23,693 --> 00:07:49,440\n以現行的法例授權大概主任只能走行政救濟就是把個案如果說有這個個案的話請委員提供給我們後期做一個處理做一個行政救濟才可能會做處理好因為已經過了4年那也就希望主委可以用力的幫幫忙那目前這個管理原保地的這個是原民會圖管處那真正編制的人力相當少\n\n21\n00:07:50,620 --> 00:08:15,481\n我們看一下這個表雖然這個補助縣市政府、鄉鎮、市公所的聘用人力但是這個地方政府的聘用人力經常都是鄉鎮、市公所安插的人馬不只是在專業上有問題有時候甚至這個態度上可能也不一定會符合大家的期待甚至還有經常被更換的情形導致業務都沒有辦法順利的辦理\n\n22\n00:08:16,602 --> 00:08:39,282\n申請增化編原保地的案件動輒都需要好幾年才會完成嗎?那就連說我們辦公室關切的案件有時候也都起碼平均要到一年半到兩年才能完成加上公所承辦人又經常更換所以原保地的業務就遲遲無法順利那如果原民會土管處改為土地管理署\n\n23\n00:08:39,742 --> 00:08:58,732\n可以向國產署在各地有設置這個直屬的人力那人力在所需的經費上目前原民會圖管處的經費在差不多就是你們目前常態性預算大概一億元那就是說如果\n\n24\n00:09:00,113 --> 00:09:27,204\n為求這個原保地各項業務可以順利的運作跟推展成立土管署土地管理署可能是最好的方式而且這樣也不會去影響漢人的權利那漢人立委的反對力道應該就會比較小那質詢在大家可以看一下看一下就是我們這個表就是比較一下\n\n25\n00:09:28,888 --> 00:09:31,050\n比較一下你們看這個園民會園民會\n\n26\n00:09:34,929 --> 00:10:00,647\n你們管理的土地面積有26萬公頃那國產署有23萬公頃那林務局150萬公頃可是那個組織的編制原民會就28人嘛林務局2500人然後國產署800人哇你們這個一人抵千人用所以平均下來看一下原民會就是一個人平均要管理將近1萬公頃\n\n27\n00:10:02,668 --> 00:10:03,249\n原住民發展條例立法會期\n\n28\n00:10:21,670 --> 00:10:47,724\n結束之前你們是不是就針對本席提的建議成立這個圖管署來就是好好算一下經費包括你們補助給這個鄉鎮公所的你們大概算一下然後來好好評估計劃寫一寫看看到底可不可行不然你看今天第一次把這個數據全部這樣子整理出來大家一目了然嗎來主委\n\n29\n00:10:48,663 --> 00:11:05,041\n好這個部分我們來做後續的評估可行性好謝謝那個不好意思那個招委是不是容許我再多問一個問題就好了阿您請坐先休息齁好那個我請那個歐斯董事長請什麼董事長\n\n30\n00:11:09,548 --> 00:11:13,310\n歐斯董事長原民台過去承辦多少次的原住民立委選舉公辦政見發表會我們的統計是報告有10次\n\n31\n00:11:29,306 --> 00:11:29,666\n公辦政見\n\n32\n00:11:57,130 --> 00:11:59,011\n中央選舉委員會委託我們為了要達到服務主任\n\n33\n00:12:27,409 --> 00:12:53,755\n自辦一次一次就是中選會給你們原民台經費委託給你們辦理那第二次你們要服務族人那你們是自己辦還是委外辦我們自己電視台辦你們是自辦還是委外辦理你講清楚喔我請執行長再做個\n\n34\n00:12:56,750 --> 00:13:12,477\n有關自辦的部分是部分我們自己辦但是有一些部分像因為那個攝影棚我們沒有攝影棚所以我們是租中式的那個攝影棚只有這個樣子反正就是也是委外嘛因為我們接到有時候接到一些電話也是你們委外的人啊\n\n35\n00:13:13,517 --> 00:13:33,849\n所以我想是這樣子啦因為原民台你們過去承辦多次的這個立委選舉的政見發表會表示你們是有能力自己辦理的而且呢現在通訊什麼都很發達那你也可以要服務族人你也可以透過網路可以透過很多的形式那也可以重播\n\n36\n00:13:35,550 --> 00:13:53,561\n不管是LINE轉傳還是這個FB通通都可以那你說要服務族人但是一樣的這個候選人一樣的政見發表會但是你們讓這個候選人也疲於奔命然後花了兩次的錢辦理了兩次\n\n37\n00:13:56,102 --> 00:14:13,116\n所以我覺得這個也是一個很奇妙就是說我不知道你們為什麼要這樣子處理那你這個招標的你們這個委外的程序是什麼是你們公開招標還是你們去指定\n\n38\n00:14:15,711 --> 00:14:27,145\n這個程序我們都是公開的但是我們因為我們都通常都是就地因為我們是租中式的場地那就近會比較進行會比較順利所以我們在程序上我們都是按照政府採購法來進行\n\n39\n00:14:29,105 --> 00:14:49,887\n對阿我想程序上一定一定一定會把它弄到沒有什麼問題我也不是說去質疑什麼只是覺得好奇就是說為什麼一個政見發表會要去辦要去辦理兩次那我也是董事長是不是私底下去跟陳映委員做個說明跟報告好嗎陳映委員不好意思因為時間已經給您\n\n40\n00:14:52,209 --> 00:15:15,102\n對啦謝謝昭緯啦我本來想說可以跟昭緯一樣把問題問完這樣子啦因為我只關心你問的問題是一樣的問題他們也回答你一樣的問題對啊就是那個公開招標的問題沒有人不是公開招標是政見發表會為什麼要兩次沒有給我一個合理的解釋你說要服務族人但是我覺得這個理由也是很牽強嘛\n\n41\n00:15:16,940 --> 00:15:39,162\n阿你們這個辦理的過程也是很奇怪阿就一定要麻煩去跟陳映委員趕快做一個說明好不好因為我下次還是會繼續再問阿你們知道你們講出一個很合理的理由嘛怎麼樣做都是服務族人我覺得很奇怪那你下次會不會有三次還是四次五次要服務族人要不要辦個五次更好\n\n42\n00:15:40,442 --> 00:15:41,043\n謝謝陳營委員的質詢謝謝董事長、執行長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n19796\t22901\t謝謝請那個宜將主委好也請宜將主委委員好\n30162\t55273\t呃主委好剛剛講到就是你們那個專刊是不是是好專刊說是例行的這個業務嗎吼但是我想剛剛前面黃婕委員也有稍微提到吼那那我再補充一下我想專刊雖然是例行例行的這個要編輯吼要出刊的這個專刊嗎吼但是我想這個\n57472\t75907\t主委在封面上絕對不是例行吧我印象中我從來沒有看到一將主委你有出現在原民會任何的刊物的這個封面上面有嗎你會在專刊的封面上嗎過去的主委有哪一位有在封面上嗎\n80040\t91550\t有的是沒有封面是沒有照片的有照片的對我剛剛看你們很多本嗎要不要拿起來晃一下我看你們很多本上面都是沒有沒有那個主委的這個預照嗎\n94261\t115218\t對不對我印象中印象中都沒有看到主委在有一將主委有出現在任何的專刊像這麼大一張而且上面還有很好的標題叫做傳奇原住民公務人員如果林江易主委有得到這樣的封號的時候請問一將主委你要叫什麼沒有你們應該沒有特別規劃去設計吧\n121314\t139362\t因為這個名稱我們還沒有定案還沒定案所以你還沒定案已經被拿出來編型了當然也謝謝剛剛比較前面的委員的關心跟指教但是我想這個要刮別人鬍子之前先把自己的鬍子刮乾淨\n140703\t169398\t他如果真的要關心是不是浩大喜功是不是在做造神運動還是怎麼樣我覺得這一本請前面的委員好好參考一下我再補充說明一下我記得我們四年的專刊的照片我想起來我們是把很多小朋友唱原住民的歌謠的照片作為封面的是都市的原住民小朋友但是就絕對沒有這樣子的獨照我就沒有什麼印象\n169878\t195455\t我們應該都是合照比較多有你的獨照我會很注意看但是沒有沒關係我不用獨照因為我沒有要選舉所以不用獨照反正因為我覺得一直講這個也很沒有營養我們講一點比較有營養的事情來我想我要關心一下就是我們這個原保有地遭到佔用然後判決確定的這個事情\n198335\t217460\t主委,原保地依照目前的規定是可以有條件的情況下讓漢人租用但是在原保地遭佔用而且被提起訴訟的通常都是非常惡劣的使用行為對於這樣佔用的行為我是非常支持原民會可以訴諸法律讓法院來做公正的判決\n218300\t242311\t那不過現在現在的問題來了吼經過這個法院長時間的這個訴訟審理對於那些惡劣的佔用行為已經判決確定可是呢地方的代表會背個公所排除這個排除這個佔用的預算然後凍結你們給公所的經費我想請教一下主委像遇到這樣的問題的時候你們應該要怎麼因應的確有一些代表會來\n248683\t273630\t做這樣的一個處理但是我們會會調整那個補助的這個方式來做處理調整補助的方式就執行的方式執行的方式好那我們再看看怎麼調然後那依照這個原開辦法的第二條規定原保地的管理機關是原民會但是呢執行機關是這個鄉鎮市公所那執行\n274831\t291508\t機關如果沒有依照這個排除佔用的情況我覺得你們應該要有一套機制在本席的手上就有兩個陳情案件其實這個兩件陳情案件是法院已經判決確定的但是到公所\n292088\t317026\t他打死就是不執行這個排除佔用那我說的這兩個個案你們要好好處理以外同時呢本席也要求你們要建立一套機制不可以地方不依法行政的時候呢你們卻拿他們完全沒有辦法所以委員所以我們才會提出我們的原住民保留地管理條例從辦法提升為法律位階以後這些個案的部分就不會再發生了\n318472\t338206\t很可惜去年沒有完成三年對我們就還在繼續努力主委如果沒有原住民使用公有的原保地而且那些公有原保地沒有公用用途的話我們都應該要輔導讓原住民取得所有權這是原保地的精神嗎那也是目前現行的規定對不對\n339607\t367466\t那四年前我有接到一個陳情案有一塊公有的原保地很大一塊那他使用的其中一部分還有很多的原住民也在使用那麼他從這個四年前就向公所申請這個公告分配那這塊土地不論是在中央或者是地方都沒有公共使用的任何規劃只因為這個鄉鎮長的個人喜好他就不想分配\n368146\t386137\t好所以讓這位法基他一直等等等等到後來怎麼樣一樣今年年初就去當天使了就往生了所以我想請教一下主委依照現行的辦法似乎這個鄉鎮市長如果沒有違反規定但是他們可以這樣子嗎可以嗎因為\n393836\t398907\t個案的部分我們要按照個案的狀況來做了解才可以找出解決的方式\n400475\t424844\t因為我辦公室接到這個陳情案件他申請了這個公告分配的土地他是現況使用人那他跟這塊土地也有使用的淵源可是呢卻因為鄉鎮市長的個人喜好那他就不想分配就是不分配所以呢通常很多遇到他們這個首長想要分配給誰他就分配給誰\n426164\t439168\t所以這個就是一個很大的問題那我講這個個案他申請了很多年至少在我辦公室我們持續在追蹤就已經追蹤了4年了那針對這樣的問題主委你認為怎麼樣可以積極來解決\n443693\t469440\t以現行的法例授權大概主任只能走行政救濟就是把個案如果說有這個個案的話請委員提供給我們後期做一個處理做一個行政救濟才可能會做處理好 因為已經過了4年那也就希望主委可以用力的幫幫忙那目前這個管理原保地的這個是原民會圖管處那真正編制的人力相當少\n470620\t495481\t我們看一下這個表雖然這個補助縣市政府、鄉鎮、市公所的聘用人力但是這個地方政府的聘用人力經常都是鄉鎮、市公所安插的人馬不只是在專業上有問題有時候甚至這個態度上可能也不一定會符合大家的期待甚至還有經常被更換的情形導致業務都沒有辦法順利的辦理\n496602\t519282\t申請增化編原保地的案件動輒都需要好幾年才會完成嗎?那就連說我們辦公室關切的案件有時候也都起碼平均要到一年半到兩年才能完成加上公所承辦人又經常更換所以原保地的業務就遲遲無法順利那如果原民會土管處改為土地管理署\n519742\t538732\t可以向國產署在各地有設置這個直屬的人力那人力在所需的經費上目前原民會圖管處的經費在差不多就是你們目前常態性預算大概一億元那就是說如果\n540113\t567204\t為求這個原保地各項業務可以順利的運作跟推展成立土管署土地管理署可能是最好的方式而且這樣也不會去影響漢人的權利那漢人立委的反對力道應該就會比較小那質詢在大家可以看一下看一下就是我們這個表就是比較一下\n568888\t571050\t比較一下你們看這個園民會園民會\n574929\t600647\t你們管理的土地面積有26萬公頃那國產署有23萬公頃那林務局150萬公頃可是那個組織的編制原民會就28人嘛林務局2500人然後國產署800人哇你們這個一人抵千人用所以平均下來看一下原民會就是一個人平均要管理將近1萬公頃\n602668\t603249\t原住民發展條例立法會期\n621670\t647724\t結束之前你們是不是就針對本席提的建議成立這個圖管署來就是好好算一下經費包括你們補助給這個鄉鎮公所的你們大概算一下然後來好好評估計劃寫一寫看看到底可不可行不然你看今天第一次把這個數據全部這樣子整理出來大家一目了然嗎來主委\n648663\t665041\t好這個部分我們來做後續的評估可行性好謝謝那個不好意思那個招委是不是容許我再多問一個問題就好了阿您請坐先休息齁好那個我請那個歐斯董事長請什麼董事長\n669548\t673310\t歐斯董事長原民台過去承辦多少次的原住民立委選舉公辦政見發表會我們的統計是報告有10次\n689306\t689666\t公辦政見\n717130\t719011\t中央選舉委員會委託我們為了要達到服務主任\n747409\t773755\t自辦一次一次就是中選會給你們原民台經費委託給你們辦理那第二次你們要服務族人那你們是自己辦還是委外辦我們自己電視台辦你們是自辦還是委外辦理你講清楚喔我請執行長再做個\n776750\t792477\t有關自辦的部分是部分我們自己辦但是有一些部分像因為那個攝影棚我們沒有攝影棚所以我們是租中式的那個攝影棚只有這個樣子反正就是也是委外嘛因為我們接到有時候接到一些電話也是你們委外的人啊\n793517\t813849\t所以我想是這樣子啦因為原民台你們過去承辦多次的這個立委選舉的政見發表會表示你們是有能力自己辦理的而且呢現在通訊什麼都很發達那你也可以要服務族人你也可以透過網路可以透過很多的形式那也可以重播\n815550\t833561\t不管是LINE轉傳還是這個FB通通都可以那你說要服務族人但是一樣的這個候選人一樣的政見發表會但是你們讓這個候選人也疲於奔命然後花了兩次的錢辦理了兩次\n836102\t853116\t所以我覺得這個也是一個很奇妙就是說我不知道你們為什麼要這樣子處理那你這個招標的你們這個委外的程序是什麼是你們公開招標還是你們去指定\n855711\t867145\t這個程序我們都是公開的但是我們因為我們都通常都是就地因為我們是租中式的場地那就近會比較進行會比較順利所以我們在程序上我們都是按照政府採購法來進行\n869105\t889887\t對阿我想程序上一定一定一定會把它弄到沒有什麼問題我也不是說去質疑什麼只是覺得好奇就是說為什麼一個政見發表會要去辦要去辦理兩次那我也是 董事長是不是私底下去跟陳映委員做個說明跟報告好嗎陳映委員不好意思因為時間已經給您\n892209\t915102\t對啦 謝謝昭緯啦我本來想說可以跟昭緯一樣把問題問完這樣子啦因為我只關心你問的問題是一樣的問題他們也回答你一樣的問題對啊 就是那個公開招標的問題沒有人 不是公開招標是政見發表會為什麼要兩次沒有給我一個合理的解釋你說要服務族人但是我覺得這個理由也是很牽強嘛\n916940\t939162\t阿你們這個辦理的過程也是很奇怪阿就一定要麻煩去跟陳映委員趕快做一個說明好不好因為我下次還是會繼續再問阿你們知道你們講出一個很合理的理由嘛怎麼樣做都是服務族人我覺得很奇怪那你下次會不會有三次還是四次五次要服務族人要不要辦個五次更好\n940442\t941043\t謝謝陳營委員的質詢謝謝董事長、執行長\n","txt":"謝謝請那個宜將主委好也請宜將主委委員好\n呃主委好剛剛講到就是你們那個專刊是不是是好專刊說是例行的這個業務嗎吼但是我想剛剛前面黃婕委員也有稍微提到吼那那我再補充一下我想專刊雖然是例行例行的這個要編輯吼要出刊的這個專刊嗎吼但是我想這個\n主委在封面上絕對不是例行吧我印象中我從來沒有看到一將主委你有出現在原民會任何的刊物的這個封面上面有嗎你會在專刊的封面上嗎過去的主委有哪一位有在封面上嗎\n有的是沒有封面是沒有照片的有照片的對我剛剛看你們很多本嗎要不要拿起來晃一下我看你們很多本上面都是沒有沒有那個主委的這個預照嗎\n對不對我印象中印象中都沒有看到主委在有一將主委有出現在任何的專刊像這麼大一張而且上面還有很好的標題叫做傳奇原住民公務人員如果林江易主委有得到這樣的封號的時候請問一將主委你要叫什麼沒有你們應該沒有特別規劃去設計吧\n因為這個名稱我們還沒有定案還沒定案所以你還沒定案已經被拿出來編型了當然也謝謝剛剛比較前面的委員的關心跟指教但是我想這個要刮別人鬍子之前先把自己的鬍子刮乾淨\n他如果真的要關心是不是浩大喜功是不是在做造神運動還是怎麼樣我覺得這一本請前面的委員好好參考一下我再補充說明一下我記得我們四年的專刊的照片我想起來我們是把很多小朋友唱原住民的歌謠的照片作為封面的是都市的原住民小朋友但是就絕對沒有這樣子的獨照我就沒有什麼印象\n我們應該都是合照比較多有你的獨照我會很注意看但是沒有沒關係我不用獨照因為我沒有要選舉所以不用獨照反正因為我覺得一直講這個也很沒有營養我們講一點比較有營養的事情來我想我要關心一下就是我們這個原保有地遭到佔用然後判決確定的這個事情\n主委,原保地依照目前的規定是可以有條件的情況下讓漢人租用但是在原保地遭佔用而且被提起訴訟的通常都是非常惡劣的使用行為對於這樣佔用的行為我是非常支持原民會可以訴諸法律讓法院來做公正的判決\n那不過現在現在的問題來了吼經過這個法院長時間的這個訴訟審理對於那些惡劣的佔用行為已經判決確定可是呢地方的代表會背個公所排除這個排除這個佔用的預算然後凍結你們給公所的經費我想請教一下主委像遇到這樣的問題的時候你們應該要怎麼因應的確有一些代表會來\n做這樣的一個處理但是我們會會調整那個補助的這個方式來做處理調整補助的方式就執行的方式執行的方式好那我們再看看怎麼調然後那依照這個原開辦法的第二條規定原保地的管理機關是原民會但是呢執行機關是這個鄉鎮市公所那執行\n機關如果沒有依照這個排除佔用的情況我覺得你們應該要有一套機制在本席的手上就有兩個陳情案件其實這個兩件陳情案件是法院已經判決確定的但是到公所\n他打死就是不執行這個排除佔用那我說的這兩個個案你們要好好處理以外同時呢本席也要求你們要建立一套機制不可以地方不依法行政的時候呢你們卻拿他們完全沒有辦法所以委員所以我們才會提出我們的原住民保留地管理條例從辦法提升為法律位階以後這些個案的部分就不會再發生了\n很可惜去年沒有完成三年對我們就還在繼續努力主委如果沒有原住民使用公有的原保地而且那些公有原保地沒有公用用途的話我們都應該要輔導讓原住民取得所有權這是原保地的精神嗎那也是目前現行的規定對不對\n那四年前我有接到一個陳情案有一塊公有的原保地很大一塊那他使用的其中一部分還有很多的原住民也在使用那麼他從這個四年前就向公所申請這個公告分配那這塊土地不論是在中央或者是地方都沒有公共使用的任何規劃只因為這個鄉鎮長的個人喜好他就不想分配\n好所以讓這位法基他一直等等等等到後來怎麼樣一樣今年年初就去當天使了就往生了所以我想請教一下主委依照現行的辦法似乎這個鄉鎮市長如果沒有違反規定但是他們可以這樣子嗎可以嗎因為\n個案的部分我們要按照個案的狀況來做了解才可以找出解決的方式\n因為我辦公室接到這個陳情案件他申請了這個公告分配的土地他是現況使用人那他跟這塊土地也有使用的淵源可是呢卻因為鄉鎮市長的個人喜好那他就不想分配就是不分配所以呢通常很多遇到他們這個首長想要分配給誰他就分配給誰\n所以這個就是一個很大的問題那我講這個個案他申請了很多年至少在我辦公室我們持續在追蹤就已經追蹤了4年了那針對這樣的問題主委你認為怎麼樣可以積極來解決\n以現行的法例授權大概主任只能走行政救濟就是把個案如果說有這個個案的話請委員提供給我們後期做一個處理做一個行政救濟才可能會做處理好 因為已經過了4年那也就希望主委可以用力的幫幫忙那目前這個管理原保地的這個是原民會圖管處那真正編制的人力相當少\n我們看一下這個表雖然這個補助縣市政府、鄉鎮、市公所的聘用人力但是這個地方政府的聘用人力經常都是鄉鎮、市公所安插的人馬不只是在專業上有問題有時候甚至這個態度上可能也不一定會符合大家的期待甚至還有經常被更換的情形導致業務都沒有辦法順利的辦理\n申請增化編原保地的案件動輒都需要好幾年才會完成嗎?那就連說我們辦公室關切的案件有時候也都起碼平均要到一年半到兩年才能完成加上公所承辦人又經常更換所以原保地的業務就遲遲無法順利那如果原民會土管處改為土地管理署\n可以向國產署在各地有設置這個直屬的人力那人力在所需的經費上目前原民會圖管處的經費在差不多就是你們目前常態性預算大概一億元那就是說如果\n為求這個原保地各項業務可以順利的運作跟推展成立土管署土地管理署可能是最好的方式而且這樣也不會去影響漢人的權利那漢人立委的反對力道應該就會比較小那質詢在大家可以看一下看一下就是我們這個表就是比較一下\n比較一下你們看這個園民會園民會\n你們管理的土地面積有26萬公頃那國產署有23萬公頃那林務局150萬公頃可是那個組織的編制原民會就28人嘛林務局2500人然後國產署800人哇你們這個一人抵千人用所以平均下來看一下原民會就是一個人平均要管理將近1萬公頃\n原住民發展條例立法會期\n結束之前你們是不是就針對本席提的建議成立這個圖管署來就是好好算一下經費包括你們補助給這個鄉鎮公所的你們大概算一下然後來好好評估計劃寫一寫看看到底可不可行不然你看今天第一次把這個數據全部這樣子整理出來大家一目了然嗎來主委\n好這個部分我們來做後續的評估可行性好謝謝那個不好意思那個招委是不是容許我再多問一個問題就好了阿您請坐先休息齁好那個我請那個歐斯董事長請什麼董事長\n歐斯董事長原民台過去承辦多少次的原住民立委選舉公辦政見發表會我們的統計是報告有10次\n公辦政見\n中央選舉委員會委託我們為了要達到服務主任\n自辦一次一次就是中選會給你們原民台經費委託給你們辦理那第二次你們要服務族人那你們是自己辦還是委外辦我們自己電視台辦你們是自辦還是委外辦理你講清楚喔我請執行長再做個\n有關自辦的部分是部分我們自己辦但是有一些部分像因為那個攝影棚我們沒有攝影棚所以我們是租中式的那個攝影棚只有這個樣子反正就是也是委外嘛因為我們接到有時候接到一些電話也是你們委外的人啊\n所以我想是這樣子啦因為原民台你們過去承辦多次的這個立委選舉的政見發表會表示你們是有能力自己辦理的而且呢現在通訊什麼都很發達那你也可以要服務族人你也可以透過網路可以透過很多的形式那也可以重播\n不管是LINE轉傳還是這個FB通通都可以那你說要服務族人但是一樣的這個候選人一樣的政見發表會但是你們讓這個候選人也疲於奔命然後花了兩次的錢辦理了兩次\n所以我覺得這個也是一個很奇妙就是說我不知道你們為什麼要這樣子處理那你這個招標的你們這個委外的程序是什麼是你們公開招標還是你們去指定\n這個程序我們都是公開的但是我們因為我們都通常都是就地因為我們是租中式的場地那就近會比較進行會比較順利所以我們在程序上我們都是按照政府採購法來進行\n對阿我想程序上一定一定一定會把它弄到沒有什麼問題我也不是說去質疑什麼只是覺得好奇就是說為什麼一個政見發表會要去辦要去辦理兩次那我也是 董事長是不是私底下去跟陳映委員做個說明跟報告好嗎陳映委員不好意思因為時間已經給您\n對啦 謝謝昭緯啦我本來想說可以跟昭緯一樣把問題問完這樣子啦因為我只關心你問的問題是一樣的問題他們也回答你一樣的問題對啊 就是那個公開招標的問題沒有人 不是公開招標是政見發表會為什麼要兩次沒有給我一個合理的解釋你說要服務族人但是我覺得這個理由也是很牽強嘛\n阿你們這個辦理的過程也是很奇怪阿就一定要麻煩去跟陳映委員趕快做一個說明好不好因為我下次還是會繼續再問阿你們知道你們講出一個很合理的理由嘛怎麼樣做都是服務族人我覺得很奇怪那你下次會不會有三次還是四次五次要服務族人要不要辦個五次更好\n謝謝陳營委員的質詢謝謝董事長、執行長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:19.796 --> 00:22.901\n謝謝請那個宜將主委好也請宜將主委委員好\n\n00:30.162 --> 00:55.273\n呃主委好剛剛講到就是你們那個專刊是不是是好專刊說是例行的這個業務嗎吼但是我想剛剛前面黃婕委員也有稍微提到吼那那我再補充一下我想專刊雖然是例行例行的這個要編輯吼要出刊的這個專刊嗎吼但是我想這個\n\n00:57.472 --> 01:15.907\n主委在封面上絕對不是例行吧我印象中我從來沒有看到一將主委你有出現在原民會任何的刊物的這個封面上面有嗎你會在專刊的封面上嗎過去的主委有哪一位有在封面上嗎\n\n01:20.040 --> 01:31.550\n有的是沒有封面是沒有照片的有照片的對我剛剛看你們很多本嗎要不要拿起來晃一下我看你們很多本上面都是沒有沒有那個主委的這個預照嗎\n\n01:34.261 --> 01:55.218\n對不對我印象中印象中都沒有看到主委在有一將主委有出現在任何的專刊像這麼大一張而且上面還有很好的標題叫做傳奇原住民公務人員如果林江易主委有得到這樣的封號的時候請問一將主委你要叫什麼沒有你們應該沒有特別規劃去設計吧\n\n02:01.314 --> 02:19.362\n因為這個名稱我們還沒有定案還沒定案所以你還沒定案已經被拿出來編型了當然也謝謝剛剛比較前面的委員的關心跟指教但是我想這個要刮別人鬍子之前先把自己的鬍子刮乾淨\n\n02:20.703 --> 02:49.398\n他如果真的要關心是不是浩大喜功是不是在做造神運動還是怎麼樣我覺得這一本請前面的委員好好參考一下我再補充說明一下我記得我們四年的專刊的照片我想起來我們是把很多小朋友唱原住民的歌謠的照片作為封面的是都市的原住民小朋友但是就絕對沒有這樣子的獨照我就沒有什麼印象\n\n02:49.878 --> 03:15.455\n我們應該都是合照比較多有你的獨照我會很注意看但是沒有沒關係我不用獨照因為我沒有要選舉所以不用獨照反正因為我覺得一直講這個也很沒有營養我們講一點比較有營養的事情來我想我要關心一下就是我們這個原保有地遭到佔用然後判決確定的這個事情\n\n03:18.335 --> 03:37.460\n主委,原保地依照目前的規定是可以有條件的情況下讓漢人租用但是在原保地遭佔用而且被提起訴訟的通常都是非常惡劣的使用行為對於這樣佔用的行為我是非常支持原民會可以訴諸法律讓法院來做公正的判決\n\n03:38.300 --> 04:02.311\n那不過現在現在的問題來了吼經過這個法院長時間的這個訴訟審理對於那些惡劣的佔用行為已經判決確定可是呢地方的代表會背個公所排除這個排除這個佔用的預算然後凍結你們給公所的經費我想請教一下主委像遇到這樣的問題的時候你們應該要怎麼因應的確有一些代表會來\n\n04:08.683 --> 04:33.630\n做這樣的一個處理但是我們會會調整那個補助的這個方式來做處理調整補助的方式就執行的方式執行的方式好那我們再看看怎麼調然後那依照這個原開辦法的第二條規定原保地的管理機關是原民會但是呢執行機關是這個鄉鎮市公所那執行\n\n04:34.831 --> 04:51.508\n機關如果沒有依照這個排除佔用的情況我覺得你們應該要有一套機制在本席的手上就有兩個陳情案件其實這個兩件陳情案件是法院已經判決確定的但是到公所\n\n04:52.088 --> 05:17.026\n他打死就是不執行這個排除佔用那我說的這兩個個案你們要好好處理以外同時呢本席也要求你們要建立一套機制不可以地方不依法行政的時候呢你們卻拿他們完全沒有辦法所以委員所以我們才會提出我們的原住民保留地管理條例從辦法提升為法律位階以後這些個案的部分就不會再發生了\n\n05:18.472 --> 05:38.206\n很可惜去年沒有完成三年對我們就還在繼續努力主委如果沒有原住民使用公有的原保地而且那些公有原保地沒有公用用途的話我們都應該要輔導讓原住民取得所有權這是原保地的精神嗎那也是目前現行的規定對不對\n\n05:39.607 --> 06:07.466\n那四年前我有接到一個陳情案有一塊公有的原保地很大一塊那他使用的其中一部分還有很多的原住民也在使用那麼他從這個四年前就向公所申請這個公告分配那這塊土地不論是在中央或者是地方都沒有公共使用的任何規劃只因為這個鄉鎮長的個人喜好他就不想分配\n\n06:08.146 --> 06:26.137\n好所以讓這位法基他一直等等等等到後來怎麼樣一樣今年年初就去當天使了就往生了所以我想請教一下主委依照現行的辦法似乎這個鄉鎮市長如果沒有違反規定但是他們可以這樣子嗎可以嗎因為\n\n06:33.836 --> 06:38.907\n個案的部分我們要按照個案的狀況來做了解才可以找出解決的方式\n\n06:40.475 --> 07:04.844\n因為我辦公室接到這個陳情案件他申請了這個公告分配的土地他是現況使用人那他跟這塊土地也有使用的淵源可是呢卻因為鄉鎮市長的個人喜好那他就不想分配就是不分配所以呢通常很多遇到他們這個首長想要分配給誰他就分配給誰\n\n07:06.164 --> 07:19.168\n所以這個就是一個很大的問題那我講這個個案他申請了很多年至少在我辦公室我們持續在追蹤就已經追蹤了4年了那針對這樣的問題主委你認為怎麼樣可以積極來解決\n\n07:23.693 --> 07:49.440\n以現行的法例授權大概主任只能走行政救濟就是把個案如果說有這個個案的話請委員提供給我們後期做一個處理做一個行政救濟才可能會做處理好因為已經過了4年那也就希望主委可以用力的幫幫忙那目前這個管理原保地的這個是原民會圖管處那真正編制的人力相當少\n\n07:50.620 --> 08:15.481\n我們看一下這個表雖然這個補助縣市政府、鄉鎮、市公所的聘用人力但是這個地方政府的聘用人力經常都是鄉鎮、市公所安插的人馬不只是在專業上有問題有時候甚至這個態度上可能也不一定會符合大家的期待甚至還有經常被更換的情形導致業務都沒有辦法順利的辦理\n\n08:16.602 --> 08:39.282\n申請增化編原保地的案件動輒都需要好幾年才會完成嗎?那就連說我們辦公室關切的案件有時候也都起碼平均要到一年半到兩年才能完成加上公所承辦人又經常更換所以原保地的業務就遲遲無法順利那如果原民會土管處改為土地管理署\n\n08:39.742 --> 08:58.732\n可以向國產署在各地有設置這個直屬的人力那人力在所需的經費上目前原民會圖管處的經費在差不多就是你們目前常態性預算大概一億元那就是說如果\n\n09:00.113 --> 09:27.204\n為求這個原保地各項業務可以順利的運作跟推展成立土管署土地管理署可能是最好的方式而且這樣也不會去影響漢人的權利那漢人立委的反對力道應該就會比較小那質詢在大家可以看一下看一下就是我們這個表就是比較一下\n\n09:28.888 --> 09:31.050\n比較一下你們看這個園民會園民會\n\n09:34.929 --> 10:00.647\n你們管理的土地面積有26萬公頃那國產署有23萬公頃那林務局150萬公頃可是那個組織的編制原民會就28人嘛林務局2500人然後國產署800人哇你們這個一人抵千人用所以平均下來看一下原民會就是一個人平均要管理將近1萬公頃\n\n10:02.668 --> 10:03.249\n原住民發展條例立法會期\n\n10:21.670 --> 10:47.724\n結束之前你們是不是就針對本席提的建議成立這個圖管署來就是好好算一下經費包括你們補助給這個鄉鎮公所的你們大概算一下然後來好好評估計劃寫一寫看看到底可不可行不然你看今天第一次把這個數據全部這樣子整理出來大家一目了然嗎來主委\n\n10:48.663 --> 11:05.041\n好這個部分我們來做後續的評估可行性好謝謝那個不好意思那個招委是不是容許我再多問一個問題就好了阿您請坐先休息齁好那個我請那個歐斯董事長請什麼董事長\n\n11:09.548 --> 11:13.310\n歐斯董事長原民台過去承辦多少次的原住民立委選舉公辦政見發表會我們的統計是報告有10次\n\n11:29.306 --> 11:29.666\n公辦政見\n\n11:57.130 --> 11:59.011\n中央選舉委員會委託我們為了要達到服務主任\n\n12:27.409 --> 12:53.755\n自辦一次一次就是中選會給你們原民台經費委託給你們辦理那第二次你們要服務族人那你們是自己辦還是委外辦我們自己電視台辦你們是自辦還是委外辦理你講清楚喔我請執行長再做個\n\n12:56.750 --> 13:12.477\n有關自辦的部分是部分我們自己辦但是有一些部分像因為那個攝影棚我們沒有攝影棚所以我們是租中式的那個攝影棚只有這個樣子反正就是也是委外嘛因為我們接到有時候接到一些電話也是你們委外的人啊\n\n13:13.517 --> 13:33.849\n所以我想是這樣子啦因為原民台你們過去承辦多次的這個立委選舉的政見發表會表示你們是有能力自己辦理的而且呢現在通訊什麼都很發達那你也可以要服務族人你也可以透過網路可以透過很多的形式那也可以重播\n\n13:35.550 --> 13:53.561\n不管是LINE轉傳還是這個FB通通都可以那你說要服務族人但是一樣的這個候選人一樣的政見發表會但是你們讓這個候選人也疲於奔命然後花了兩次的錢辦理了兩次\n\n13:56.102 --> 14:13.116\n所以我覺得這個也是一個很奇妙就是說我不知道你們為什麼要這樣子處理那你這個招標的你們這個委外的程序是什麼是你們公開招標還是你們去指定\n\n14:15.711 --> 14:27.145\n這個程序我們都是公開的但是我們因為我們都通常都是就地因為我們是租中式的場地那就近會比較進行會比較順利所以我們在程序上我們都是按照政府採購法來進行\n\n14:29.105 --> 14:49.887\n對阿我想程序上一定一定一定會把它弄到沒有什麼問題我也不是說去質疑什麼只是覺得好奇就是說為什麼一個政見發表會要去辦要去辦理兩次那我也是董事長是不是私底下去跟陳映委員做個說明跟報告好嗎陳映委員不好意思因為時間已經給您\n\n14:52.209 --> 15:15.102\n對啦謝謝昭緯啦我本來想說可以跟昭緯一樣把問題問完這樣子啦因為我只關心你問的問題是一樣的問題他們也回答你一樣的問題對啊就是那個公開招標的問題沒有人不是公開招標是政見發表會為什麼要兩次沒有給我一個合理的解釋你說要服務族人但是我覺得這個理由也是很牽強嘛\n\n15:16.940 --> 15:39.162\n阿你們這個辦理的過程也是很奇怪阿就一定要麻煩去跟陳映委員趕快做一個說明好不好因為我下次還是會繼續再問阿你們知道你們講出一個很合理的理由嘛怎麼樣做都是服務族人我覺得很奇怪那你下次會不會有三次還是四次五次要服務族人要不要辦個五次更好\n\n15:40.442 --> 15:41.043\n謝謝陳營委員的質詢謝謝董事長、執行長\n\n","segments":[{"start":19.796,"end":22.901,"text":"謝謝請那個宜將主委好也請宜將主委委員好"},{"start":30.162,"end":55.273,"text":"呃主委好剛剛講到就是你們那個專刊是不是是好專刊說是例行的這個業務嗎吼但是我想剛剛前面黃婕委員也有稍微提到吼那那我再補充一下我想專刊雖然是例行例行的這個要編輯吼要出刊的這個專刊嗎吼但是我想這個"},{"start":57.472,"end":75.907,"text":"主委在封面上絕對不是例行吧我印象中我從來沒有看到一將主委你有出現在原民會任何的刊物的這個封面上面有嗎你會在專刊的封面上嗎過去的主委有哪一位有在封面上嗎"},{"start":80.04,"end":91.55,"text":"有的是沒有封面是沒有照片的有照片的對我剛剛看你們很多本嗎要不要拿起來晃一下我看你們很多本上面都是沒有沒有那個主委的這個預照嗎"},{"start":94.261,"end":115.218,"text":"對不對我印象中印象中都沒有看到主委在有一將主委有出現在任何的專刊像這麼大一張而且上面還有很好的標題叫做傳奇原住民公務人員如果林江易主委有得到這樣的封號的時候請問一將主委你要叫什麼沒有你們應該沒有特別規劃去設計吧"},{"start":121.314,"end":139.362,"text":"因為這個名稱我們還沒有定案還沒定案所以你還沒定案已經被拿出來編型了當然也謝謝剛剛比較前面的委員的關心跟指教但是我想這個要刮別人鬍子之前先把自己的鬍子刮乾淨"},{"start":140.703,"end":169.398,"text":"他如果真的要關心是不是浩大喜功是不是在做造神運動還是怎麼樣我覺得這一本請前面的委員好好參考一下我再補充說明一下我記得我們四年的專刊的照片我想起來我們是把很多小朋友唱原住民的歌謠的照片作為封面的是都市的原住民小朋友但是就絕對沒有這樣子的獨照我就沒有什麼印象"},{"start":169.878,"end":195.455,"text":"我們應該都是合照比較多有你的獨照我會很注意看但是沒有沒關係我不用獨照因為我沒有要選舉所以不用獨照反正因為我覺得一直講這個也很沒有營養我們講一點比較有營養的事情來我想我要關心一下就是我們這個原保有地遭到佔用然後判決確定的這個事情"},{"start":198.335,"end":217.46,"text":"主委,原保地依照目前的規定是可以有條件的情況下讓漢人租用但是在原保地遭佔用而且被提起訴訟的通常都是非常惡劣的使用行為對於這樣佔用的行為我是非常支持原民會可以訴諸法律讓法院來做公正的判決"},{"start":218.3,"end":242.311,"text":"那不過現在現在的問題來了吼經過這個法院長時間的這個訴訟審理對於那些惡劣的佔用行為已經判決確定可是呢地方的代表會背個公所排除這個排除這個佔用的預算然後凍結你們給公所的經費我想請教一下主委像遇到這樣的問題的時候你們應該要怎麼因應的確有一些代表會來"},{"start":248.683,"end":273.63,"text":"做這樣的一個處理但是我們會會調整那個補助的這個方式來做處理調整補助的方式就執行的方式執行的方式好那我們再看看怎麼調然後那依照這個原開辦法的第二條規定原保地的管理機關是原民會但是呢執行機關是這個鄉鎮市公所那執行"},{"start":274.831,"end":291.508,"text":"機關如果沒有依照這個排除佔用的情況我覺得你們應該要有一套機制在本席的手上就有兩個陳情案件其實這個兩件陳情案件是法院已經判決確定的但是到公所"},{"start":292.088,"end":317.026,"text":"他打死就是不執行這個排除佔用那我說的這兩個個案你們要好好處理以外同時呢本席也要求你們要建立一套機制不可以地方不依法行政的時候呢你們卻拿他們完全沒有辦法所以委員所以我們才會提出我們的原住民保留地管理條例從辦法提升為法律位階以後這些個案的部分就不會再發生了"},{"start":318.472,"end":338.206,"text":"很可惜去年沒有完成三年對我們就還在繼續努力主委如果沒有原住民使用公有的原保地而且那些公有原保地沒有公用用途的話我們都應該要輔導讓原住民取得所有權這是原保地的精神嗎那也是目前現行的規定對不對"},{"start":339.607,"end":367.466,"text":"那四年前我有接到一個陳情案有一塊公有的原保地很大一塊那他使用的其中一部分還有很多的原住民也在使用那麼他從這個四年前就向公所申請這個公告分配那這塊土地不論是在中央或者是地方都沒有公共使用的任何規劃只因為這個鄉鎮長的個人喜好他就不想分配"},{"start":368.146,"end":386.137,"text":"好所以讓這位法基他一直等等等等到後來怎麼樣一樣今年年初就去當天使了就往生了所以我想請教一下主委依照現行的辦法似乎這個鄉鎮市長如果沒有違反規定但是他們可以這樣子嗎可以嗎因為"},{"start":393.836,"end":398.907,"text":"個案的部分我們要按照個案的狀況來做了解才可以找出解決的方式"},{"start":400.475,"end":424.844,"text":"因為我辦公室接到這個陳情案件他申請了這個公告分配的土地他是現況使用人那他跟這塊土地也有使用的淵源可是呢卻因為鄉鎮市長的個人喜好那他就不想分配就是不分配所以呢通常很多遇到他們這個首長想要分配給誰他就分配給誰"},{"start":426.164,"end":439.168,"text":"所以這個就是一個很大的問題那我講這個個案他申請了很多年至少在我辦公室我們持續在追蹤就已經追蹤了4年了那針對這樣的問題主委你認為怎麼樣可以積極來解決"},{"start":443.693,"end":469.44,"text":"以現行的法例授權大概主任只能走行政救濟就是把個案如果說有這個個案的話請委員提供給我們後期做一個處理做一個行政救濟才可能會做處理好 因為已經過了4年那也就希望主委可以用力的幫幫忙那目前這個管理原保地的這個是原民會圖管處那真正編制的人力相當少"},{"start":470.62,"end":495.481,"text":"我們看一下這個表雖然這個補助縣市政府、鄉鎮、市公所的聘用人力但是這個地方政府的聘用人力經常都是鄉鎮、市公所安插的人馬不只是在專業上有問題有時候甚至這個態度上可能也不一定會符合大家的期待甚至還有經常被更換的情形導致業務都沒有辦法順利的辦理"},{"start":496.602,"end":519.282,"text":"申請增化編原保地的案件動輒都需要好幾年才會完成嗎?那就連說我們辦公室關切的案件有時候也都起碼平均要到一年半到兩年才能完成加上公所承辦人又經常更換所以原保地的業務就遲遲無法順利那如果原民會土管處改為土地管理署"},{"start":519.742,"end":538.732,"text":"可以向國產署在各地有設置這個直屬的人力那人力在所需的經費上目前原民會圖管處的經費在差不多就是你們目前常態性預算大概一億元那就是說如果"},{"start":540.113,"end":567.204,"text":"為求這個原保地各項業務可以順利的運作跟推展成立土管署土地管理署可能是最好的方式而且這樣也不會去影響漢人的權利那漢人立委的反對力道應該就會比較小那質詢在大家可以看一下看一下就是我們這個表就是比較一下"},{"start":568.888,"end":571.05,"text":"比較一下你們看這個園民會園民會"},{"start":574.929,"end":600.647,"text":"你們管理的土地面積有26萬公頃那國產署有23萬公頃那林務局150萬公頃可是那個組織的編制原民會就28人嘛林務局2500人然後國產署800人哇你們這個一人抵千人用所以平均下來看一下原民會就是一個人平均要管理將近1萬公頃"},{"start":602.668,"end":603.249,"text":"原住民發展條例立法會期"},{"start":621.67,"end":647.724,"text":"結束之前你們是不是就針對本席提的建議成立這個圖管署來就是好好算一下經費包括你們補助給這個鄉鎮公所的你們大概算一下然後來好好評估計劃寫一寫看看到底可不可行不然你看今天第一次把這個數據全部這樣子整理出來大家一目了然嗎來主委"},{"start":648.663,"end":665.041,"text":"好這個部分我們來做後續的評估可行性好謝謝那個不好意思那個招委是不是容許我再多問一個問題就好了阿您請坐先休息齁好那個我請那個歐斯董事長請什麼董事長"},{"start":669.548,"end":673.31,"text":"歐斯董事長原民台過去承辦多少次的原住民立委選舉公辦政見發表會我們的統計是報告有10次"},{"start":689.306,"end":689.666,"text":"公辦政見"},{"start":717.13,"end":719.011,"text":"中央選舉委員會委託我們為了要達到服務主任"},{"start":747.409,"end":773.755,"text":"自辦一次一次就是中選會給你們原民台經費委託給你們辦理那第二次你們要服務族人那你們是自己辦還是委外辦我們自己電視台辦你們是自辦還是委外辦理你講清楚喔我請執行長再做個"},{"start":776.75,"end":792.477,"text":"有關自辦的部分是部分我們自己辦但是有一些部分像因為那個攝影棚我們沒有攝影棚所以我們是租中式的那個攝影棚只有這個樣子反正就是也是委外嘛因為我們接到有時候接到一些電話也是你們委外的人啊"},{"start":793.517,"end":813.849,"text":"所以我想是這樣子啦因為原民台你們過去承辦多次的這個立委選舉的政見發表會表示你們是有能力自己辦理的而且呢現在通訊什麼都很發達那你也可以要服務族人你也可以透過網路可以透過很多的形式那也可以重播"},{"start":815.55,"end":833.561,"text":"不管是LINE轉傳還是這個FB通通都可以那你說要服務族人但是一樣的這個候選人一樣的政見發表會但是你們讓這個候選人也疲於奔命然後花了兩次的錢辦理了兩次"},{"start":836.102,"end":853.116,"text":"所以我覺得這個也是一個很奇妙就是說我不知道你們為什麼要這樣子處理那你這個招標的你們這個委外的程序是什麼是你們公開招標還是你們去指定"},{"start":855.711,"end":867.145,"text":"這個程序我們都是公開的但是我們因為我們都通常都是就地因為我們是租中式的場地那就近會比較進行會比較順利所以我們在程序上我們都是按照政府採購法來進行"},{"start":869.105,"end":889.887,"text":"對阿我想程序上一定一定一定會把它弄到沒有什麼問題我也不是說去質疑什麼只是覺得好奇就是說為什麼一個政見發表會要去辦要去辦理兩次那我也是 董事長是不是私底下去跟陳映委員做個說明跟報告好嗎陳映委員不好意思因為時間已經給您"},{"start":892.209,"end":915.102,"text":"對啦 謝謝昭緯啦我本來想說可以跟昭緯一樣把問題問完這樣子啦因為我只關心你問的問題是一樣的問題他們也回答你一樣的問題對啊 就是那個公開招標的問題沒有人 不是公開招標是政見發表會為什麼要兩次沒有給我一個合理的解釋你說要服務族人但是我覺得這個理由也是很牽強嘛"},{"start":916.94,"end":939.162,"text":"阿你們這個辦理的過程也是很奇怪阿就一定要麻煩去跟陳映委員趕快做一個說明好不好因為我下次還是會繼續再問阿你們知道你們講出一個很合理的理由嘛怎麼樣做都是服務族人我覺得很奇怪那你下次會不會有三次還是四次五次要服務族人要不要辦個五次更好"},{"start":940.442,"end":941.043,"text":"謝謝陳營委員的質詢謝謝董事長、執行長"}]}}}}