{"id":150811,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150811","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0d62deff1655f5eb125a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a6ca5b004953e0395f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:41:33 - 12:47:33","影片長度":"00:06:00","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":360,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:47:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:41:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1284,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時41分）好，謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長辛苦了。我們時間有限，我們來談一下，在整個食安事件當中，其實我們辦公室一直在研究營養午餐的相關法規，我們發現整個食安事件當中有一個角色可能都被大家忽略了，就是食品技師，我先簡單確認一下，部長，你應該知道食品技師的角色，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：我知道。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們來看一下，根據現在有的資料，食品科食品技師在整個國家考試當中是有兩千五百多位，可是在專業的換發執照執業的部分，他們的人數卻是0，部長，你知道這個狀況的原因是為什麼嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這我就不清楚。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為現在相關的法規當中，他們沒有辦法成立第三方機構、沒有辦法作為單獨驗證的機構，他們必須要受僱於私人企業、民間團體或是政府機關，其實這個現象很有問題，後續我們再來看另外一個事情。","食品安全管理目前分成三級品管制度，如同這個投影片上秀出來的，第一個階段是食品業者必須自主管理；第二個階段則是透過第三方驗證機構進行查核；最後才是政府稽查。可是我們來看一下到底誰要進入第三方驗證機構的查核，在相關法規裡面規定的是在這個紅色框框裡面，例如說，資本額3,000萬以上或者是相關的食品添加業，這些其實都是比較中大型的公司規模。","所以我們來看一下問題到底是什麼？其實全臺灣目前登記的食品業者總數有六十幾萬家，可是可以進到我的投影片說的第二層，被第三方驗證機構查核登記的食品業者目前只有626家，也就是說，六十幾萬家比較626家，其實有將近99.9%的民間業者必須進行自主管理，也就是說，整個食品業者的管理，有這麼多要依靠他們。部長，聽到目前為止，你覺得有哪些問題？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實第三方驗證機構也就是第二級品管這個部分，是國內相當欠缺的。"],["陳委員培瑜：目前有4個。部長，跟你報告，有4個驗證機構。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是這個要建立公信力不是那麼容易。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。可是我剛剛已經跟部長報告了，回過頭來看，其實現在光是到111年年底，已經有兩千多位食品科食品技師經過國家高考，可是若照現行法規，他們又沒有辦法進行單獨的執業驗證，所以我就直接說，有沒有機會？目前所有食品技師都受僱在企業之中，他們就是要拿出自己的良心，然後檢舉他們的老闆，或者部長，你覺得會有什麼可能性？如果他們檢舉這個老闆，可能他們自己會失業，或者是他們的老闆可能為了防堵他們，雖然根據法規的規定請了他們在裡頭工作，可是也可能不讓這些食品技師接觸核心，把他們當成橡皮圖章。","其實我們在跟食品技師接觸當中，我們都認為，如果最後只讓業者自律可能就會出現類似這樣的狀況，所以我們想要請衛福部考慮一下，可不可以像土木技師、會計師這樣有簽證的制度，讓食品技師也可以具備第三方驗證？這樣會更客觀、更公正，同時更有量能為食品安全把關。"],["薛部長瑞元：我覺得是這樣，如果你要食品技師單獨去做簽證的話，他恐怕還是避免不了剛剛委員提到的狀況，就是食品廠的老闆給他壓力。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是我剛剛已經說了，我知道部長您的擔心，但是目前他們都被受僱在企業、政府或民間團體裡面，可是像土木技師、會計師因為有第三方的驗證機構，他們自己也要受到相關法規的規範，目前臺灣對於食品技師簽證制度沒有相關的規劃報告，但是其實從2007年就已經有很多業者，包含食品技師，還有很多在意食安的民間團體一直提出這個訴求，因為今天時間有限，是不是可以請衛福部在三個月內提出建立食品技師簽證制度規劃報告？有沒有機會？"],["薛部長瑞元：三個月我不知道能不能弄出來，因為這個牽涉滿大的，第一個，我個人認為不是由這些食品技師去做簽證就好了。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，當然。"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是要有機構。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。我剛剛說目前有4個機構。"],["薛部長瑞元：在機構裡面要有二級品管的機構。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，目前二級機構有4個。"],["薛部長瑞元：現在就是說，這個機構要能夠取得民眾的信任，這樣簽證才會有效。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯。"],["薛部長瑞元：目前有的這4個機構是否就能夠得到民眾的信任？"],["陳委員培瑜：我覺得目前他們得到民眾的信任度應該是有的，可是他們目前負責的量能就是那六百多家，假設我們還要提出更多，他們的量能是會有困難。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分最大的問題真的是這樣，以前有GMP，我們曾經嘗試去建立食品GMP的制度，後來一個頂新的油的案子就整個沖垮了。所以要建立信心非常困難，要把它打掉非常容易。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們再來討論食品技師跟建立信心之間跟機構的關係，或者是第三方簽證在臺灣的可能性，我們再跟衛福部來討論。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我不敢跟委員答應說三個月就能夠把這個事情完成，但是我們可以開始啟動。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。這個部分我們辦公室也會持續再跟衛福部討論，好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳培瑜委員的質詢。","接下來我們請李坤城委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"150811","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150811","tool":"pyannote","id":"150811-pyannote"},"job_id":"9b8OLtJ936foFR5x","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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\"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"培\", \"start\": 331.201, \"end\": 331.461, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"瑜\", \"start\": 331.461, \"end\": 331.641, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 331.641, \"end\": 331.721, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 331.721, \"end\": 331.741, \"score\": 0.017}, {\"word\": \"諮\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,086 --> 00:00:06,277\n好謝謝主席那有請部長好請部長好謝謝薛部長\n\n2\n00:00:14,804 --> 00:00:15,705\n部長你應該知道食品祭司的角色對不對?我知道\n\n3\n00:00:35,005 --> 00:00:35,185\n在我這不清楚\n\n4\n00:00:54,116 --> 00:01:08,304\n因為他們現在在相關的法規當中他們沒有辦法成立所謂第三方機構沒有辦法作為這個單獨驗證的機構他們必須要受雇於私人企業民間團體或是政府機關其實這個現象很有問題那後續我們再來看另外一個事情\n\n5\n00:01:09,244 --> 00:01:23,806\n如果我們來看這個食品安全管理目前分成三級品管制度如同我們這個投影片上秀出來的那第一個階段呢是食品業者必須自主管理第二個階段則是透過第三方驗證機構進行查核最後才是政府機場可是呢\n\n6\n00:01:24,767 --> 00:01:29,809\n我們來看一下到底誰要進入所謂第三方驗證機構的查核在這個相關法規裡面規定的是這個我的紅色框框裡面例如說資本額3000萬以上或者是相關的食品添加業這些這些這些其實都是比較中大型的公司規模所以我們來看一下這個問題到底是什麼\n\n7\n00:01:42,375 --> 00:01:56,922\n其實全臺灣目前登記的食品業者總數有60幾萬家可是可以進到我剛剛頭影片說的這個第二層被第三方驗證機構查核登記的食品業者目前只有626家也就是說60幾萬比照626家其實有將近99.9%的民間業者他們必須進行這個\n\n8\n00:02:06,727 --> 00:02:25,789\n自主管理所以也就是說整個食品業者的管理裡面有這麼多要依靠他們部長你覺得聽到目前為止您覺得有哪些問題其實我們這第三方院政機構就是說第二級的評管的這個部門是國內相當欠缺的\n\n9\n00:02:26,932 --> 00:02:56,358\n目前有四個啦,部長跟你報告這邊,四個驗證機構但是這個要建立公信力不是那麼容易可是我剛剛已經跟部長報告回過頭來看其實我們已經現在光是到111年年底已經有兩千多位食品科、食品技師他們已經經過國家高考可是募照現行的法規他們又沒有辦法進行單獨的職業的驗證所以有沒有機會我們就直接說有沒有機會我們認為目前所有食品技師都受僱在企業之中\n\n10\n00:02:56,798 --> 00:03:05,321\n他們要嘛就是要拿出自己的良心然後檢舉他們的老闆或者部長你覺得會有什麼可能性如果他們檢舉這個老闆可能他們自己會失業或者是他們的老闆可能甚至為了防堵他們雖然請了他們在裡頭根據法規的規定可是也可能不讓這些食品技師接觸核心把他們當成橡皮圖章\n\n11\n00:03:18,726 --> 00:03:18,866\n陳培瑜\n\n12\n00:03:43,550 --> 00:03:55,962\n我覺得是這樣如果你要食品技師單獨去做簽證的話他恐怕還是避免不了剛剛委員提到的就是說這一個老闆\n\n13\n00:04:02,668 --> 00:04:26,288\n但是因為我剛剛已經說了我知道部長您的擔心但是因為目前他們都被受雇在企業當中或是政府或是民間團體裡面可是就好像土木技師、會計師他們因為有這個第三方的驗證機構他們其實自己也要受到這個相關法規的規定那目前臺灣對於食品技師簽證制度沒有相關的規劃報告但是其實從2007年就已經有很多業者包含食品技師還有很多在意食安的民間團體一直提出這個訴求\n\n14\n00:04:28,209 --> 00:04:48,515\n但是因為今天有限,我們是不是可以請衛福部的三個月內規劃建立食品技師簽證制度規劃報告,有沒有機會?三個月我不知道能不能弄出來,因為這個牽涉是蠻大的。第一個,我個人認為,不是說由這些食品技師去做簽證就好了。\n\n15\n00:04:48,635 --> 00:04:56,326\n是當然他應該是要有機構啦是他必須要有機構裡面專門在做二級評管的機構對目前有二級有四個現在就是說好這個機構的話要能夠取得民眾的信任對這種簽證才會有效沒錯對\n\n16\n00:05:03,996 --> 00:05:30,201\n那這四個機構目前有的是否就能夠是是得到民眾的信任我覺得目前他們得到民眾信任度應該是有的可是他們目前負責的量能就是那600多家假設我們還要提出更多他們的量能是會有困難這部分的話真的是最大問題是這樣以前有GMP嘛曾經嘗試用GMP去建立食品GMP的制度後來一個\n\n17\n00:05:31,181 --> 00:05:31,741\n好謝謝陳培瑜委員的諮詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n86\t6277\t好謝謝主席那有請部長好請部長好謝謝薛部長\n14804\t15705\t部長你應該知道食品祭司的角色對不對?我知道\n35005\t35185\t在我這不清楚\n54116\t68304\t因為他們現在在相關的法規當中他們沒有辦法成立所謂第三方機構沒有辦法作為這個單獨驗證的機構他們必須要受雇於私人企業民間團體或是政府機關其實這個現象很有問題那後續我們再來看另外一個事情\n69244\t83806\t如果我們來看這個食品安全管理目前分成三級品管制度如同我們這個投影片上秀出來的那第一個階段呢是食品業者必須自主管理第二個階段則是透過第三方驗證機構進行查核最後才是政府機場可是呢\n84767\t89809\t我們來看一下到底誰要進入所謂第三方驗證機構的查核在這個相關法規裡面規定的是這個我的紅色框框裡面例如說資本額3000萬以上或者是相關的食品添加業這些這些這些其實都是比較中大型的公司規模所以我們來看一下這個問題到底是什麼\n102375\t116922\t其實全臺灣目前登記的食品業者總數有60幾萬家可是可以進到我剛剛頭影片說的這個第二層被第三方驗證機構查核登記的食品業者目前只有626家也就是說60幾萬比照626家其實有將近99.9%的民間業者他們必須進行這個\n126727\t145789\t自主管理所以也就是說整個食品業者的管理裡面有這麼多要依靠他們部長你覺得聽到目前為止您覺得有哪些問題其實我們這第三方院政機構就是說第二級的評管的這個部門是國內相當欠缺的\n146932\t176358\t目前有四個啦,部長跟你報告這邊,四個驗證機構但是這個要建立公信力不是那麼容易可是我剛剛已經跟部長報告回過頭來看其實我們已經現在光是到111年年底已經有兩千多位食品科、食品技師他們已經經過國家高考可是募照現行的法規他們又沒有辦法進行單獨的職業的驗證所以有沒有機會我們就直接說有沒有機會我們認為目前所有食品技師都受僱在企業之中\n176798\t185321\t他們要嘛就是要拿出自己的良心然後檢舉他們的老闆或者部長你覺得會有什麼可能性如果他們檢舉這個老闆可能他們自己會失業或者是他們的老闆可能甚至為了防堵他們雖然請了他們在裡頭根據法規的規定可是也可能不讓這些食品技師接觸核心把他們當成橡皮圖章\n198726\t198866\t陳培瑜\n223550\t235962\t我覺得是這樣如果你要食品技師單獨去做簽證的話他恐怕還是避免不了剛剛委員提到的就是說這一個老闆\n242668\t266288\t但是因為我剛剛已經說了我知道部長您的擔心但是因為目前他們都被受雇在企業當中或是政府或是民間團體裡面可是就好像土木技師、會計師他們因為有這個第三方的驗證機構他們其實自己也要受到這個相關法規的規定那目前臺灣對於食品技師簽證制度沒有相關的規劃報告但是其實從2007年就已經有很多業者包含食品技師還有很多在意食安的民間團體一直提出這個訴求\n268209\t288515\t但是因為今天有限,我們是不是可以請衛福部的三個月內規劃建立食品技師簽證制度規劃報告,有沒有機會?三個月我不知道能不能弄出來,因為這個牽涉是蠻大的。第一個,我個人認為,不是說由這些食品技師去做簽證就好了。\n288635\t296326\t是當然他應該是要有機構啦是他必須要有機構裡面專門在做二級評管的機構對目前有二級有四個現在就是說好這個機構的話要能夠取得民眾的信任對這種簽證才會有效沒錯對\n303996\t330201\t那這四個機構目前有的是否就能夠是是得到民眾的信任我覺得目前他們得到民眾信任度應該是有的可是他們目前負責的量能就是那600多家假設我們還要提出更多他們的量能是會有困難這部分的話真的是最大問題是這樣以前有GMP嘛曾經嘗試用GMP去建立食品GMP的制度後來一個\n331181\t331741\t好 謝謝陳培瑜委員的諮詢\n","txt":"好謝謝主席那有請部長好請部長好謝謝薛部長\n部長你應該知道食品祭司的角色對不對?我知道\n在我這不清楚\n因為他們現在在相關的法規當中他們沒有辦法成立所謂第三方機構沒有辦法作為這個單獨驗證的機構他們必須要受雇於私人企業民間團體或是政府機關其實這個現象很有問題那後續我們再來看另外一個事情\n如果我們來看這個食品安全管理目前分成三級品管制度如同我們這個投影片上秀出來的那第一個階段呢是食品業者必須自主管理第二個階段則是透過第三方驗證機構進行查核最後才是政府機場可是呢\n我們來看一下到底誰要進入所謂第三方驗證機構的查核在這個相關法規裡面規定的是這個我的紅色框框裡面例如說資本額3000萬以上或者是相關的食品添加業這些這些這些其實都是比較中大型的公司規模所以我們來看一下這個問題到底是什麼\n其實全臺灣目前登記的食品業者總數有60幾萬家可是可以進到我剛剛頭影片說的這個第二層被第三方驗證機構查核登記的食品業者目前只有626家也就是說60幾萬比照626家其實有將近99.9%的民間業者他們必須進行這個\n自主管理所以也就是說整個食品業者的管理裡面有這麼多要依靠他們部長你覺得聽到目前為止您覺得有哪些問題其實我們這第三方院政機構就是說第二級的評管的這個部門是國內相當欠缺的\n目前有四個啦,部長跟你報告這邊,四個驗證機構但是這個要建立公信力不是那麼容易可是我剛剛已經跟部長報告回過頭來看其實我們已經現在光是到111年年底已經有兩千多位食品科、食品技師他們已經經過國家高考可是募照現行的法規他們又沒有辦法進行單獨的職業的驗證所以有沒有機會我們就直接說有沒有機會我們認為目前所有食品技師都受僱在企業之中\n他們要嘛就是要拿出自己的良心然後檢舉他們的老闆或者部長你覺得會有什麼可能性如果他們檢舉這個老闆可能他們自己會失業或者是他們的老闆可能甚至為了防堵他們雖然請了他們在裡頭根據法規的規定可是也可能不讓這些食品技師接觸核心把他們當成橡皮圖章\n陳培瑜\n我覺得是這樣如果你要食品技師單獨去做簽證的話他恐怕還是避免不了剛剛委員提到的就是說這一個老闆\n但是因為我剛剛已經說了我知道部長您的擔心但是因為目前他們都被受雇在企業當中或是政府或是民間團體裡面可是就好像土木技師、會計師他們因為有這個第三方的驗證機構他們其實自己也要受到這個相關法規的規定那目前臺灣對於食品技師簽證制度沒有相關的規劃報告但是其實從2007年就已經有很多業者包含食品技師還有很多在意食安的民間團體一直提出這個訴求\n但是因為今天有限,我們是不是可以請衛福部的三個月內規劃建立食品技師簽證制度規劃報告,有沒有機會?三個月我不知道能不能弄出來,因為這個牽涉是蠻大的。第一個,我個人認為,不是說由這些食品技師去做簽證就好了。\n是當然他應該是要有機構啦是他必須要有機構裡面專門在做二級評管的機構對目前有二級有四個現在就是說好這個機構的話要能夠取得民眾的信任對這種簽證才會有效沒錯對\n那這四個機構目前有的是否就能夠是是得到民眾的信任我覺得目前他們得到民眾信任度應該是有的可是他們目前負責的量能就是那600多家假設我們還要提出更多他們的量能是會有困難這部分的話真的是最大問題是這樣以前有GMP嘛曾經嘗試用GMP去建立食品GMP的制度後來一個\n好 謝謝陳培瑜委員的諮詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.086 --> 00:06.277\n好謝謝主席那有請部長好請部長好謝謝薛部長\n\n00:14.804 --> 00:15.705\n部長你應該知道食品祭司的角色對不對?我知道\n\n00:35.005 --> 00:35.185\n在我這不清楚\n\n00:54.116 --> 01:08.304\n因為他們現在在相關的法規當中他們沒有辦法成立所謂第三方機構沒有辦法作為這個單獨驗證的機構他們必須要受雇於私人企業民間團體或是政府機關其實這個現象很有問題那後續我們再來看另外一個事情\n\n01:09.244 --> 01:23.806\n如果我們來看這個食品安全管理目前分成三級品管制度如同我們這個投影片上秀出來的那第一個階段呢是食品業者必須自主管理第二個階段則是透過第三方驗證機構進行查核最後才是政府機場可是呢\n\n01:24.767 --> 01:29.809\n我們來看一下到底誰要進入所謂第三方驗證機構的查核在這個相關法規裡面規定的是這個我的紅色框框裡面例如說資本額3000萬以上或者是相關的食品添加業這些這些這些其實都是比較中大型的公司規模所以我們來看一下這個問題到底是什麼\n\n01:42.375 --> 01:56.922\n其實全臺灣目前登記的食品業者總數有60幾萬家可是可以進到我剛剛頭影片說的這個第二層被第三方驗證機構查核登記的食品業者目前只有626家也就是說60幾萬比照626家其實有將近99.9%的民間業者他們必須進行這個\n\n02:06.727 --> 02:25.789\n自主管理所以也就是說整個食品業者的管理裡面有這麼多要依靠他們部長你覺得聽到目前為止您覺得有哪些問題其實我們這第三方院政機構就是說第二級的評管的這個部門是國內相當欠缺的\n\n02:26.932 --> 02:56.358\n目前有四個啦,部長跟你報告這邊,四個驗證機構但是這個要建立公信力不是那麼容易可是我剛剛已經跟部長報告回過頭來看其實我們已經現在光是到111年年底已經有兩千多位食品科、食品技師他們已經經過國家高考可是募照現行的法規他們又沒有辦法進行單獨的職業的驗證所以有沒有機會我們就直接說有沒有機會我們認為目前所有食品技師都受僱在企業之中\n\n02:56.798 --> 03:05.321\n他們要嘛就是要拿出自己的良心然後檢舉他們的老闆或者部長你覺得會有什麼可能性如果他們檢舉這個老闆可能他們自己會失業或者是他們的老闆可能甚至為了防堵他們雖然請了他們在裡頭根據法規的規定可是也可能不讓這些食品技師接觸核心把他們當成橡皮圖章\n\n03:18.726 --> 03:18.866\n陳培瑜\n\n03:43.550 --> 03:55.962\n我覺得是這樣如果你要食品技師單獨去做簽證的話他恐怕還是避免不了剛剛委員提到的就是說這一個老闆\n\n04:02.668 --> 04:26.288\n但是因為我剛剛已經說了我知道部長您的擔心但是因為目前他們都被受雇在企業當中或是政府或是民間團體裡面可是就好像土木技師、會計師他們因為有這個第三方的驗證機構他們其實自己也要受到這個相關法規的規定那目前臺灣對於食品技師簽證制度沒有相關的規劃報告但是其實從2007年就已經有很多業者包含食品技師還有很多在意食安的民間團體一直提出這個訴求\n\n04:28.209 --> 04:48.515\n但是因為今天有限,我們是不是可以請衛福部的三個月內規劃建立食品技師簽證制度規劃報告,有沒有機會?三個月我不知道能不能弄出來,因為這個牽涉是蠻大的。第一個,我個人認為,不是說由這些食品技師去做簽證就好了。\n\n04:48.635 --> 04:56.326\n是當然他應該是要有機構啦是他必須要有機構裡面專門在做二級評管的機構對目前有二級有四個現在就是說好這個機構的話要能夠取得民眾的信任對這種簽證才會有效沒錯對\n\n05:03.996 --> 05:30.201\n那這四個機構目前有的是否就能夠是是得到民眾的信任我覺得目前他們得到民眾信任度應該是有的可是他們目前負責的量能就是那600多家假設我們還要提出更多他們的量能是會有困難這部分的話真的是最大問題是這樣以前有GMP嘛曾經嘗試用GMP去建立食品GMP的制度後來一個\n\n05:31.181 --> 05:31.741\n好謝謝陳培瑜委員的諮詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.086,"end":6.277,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請部長好請部長好謝謝薛部長"},{"start":14.804,"end":15.705,"text":"部長你應該知道食品祭司的角色對不對?我知道"},{"start":35.005,"end":35.185,"text":"在我這不清楚"},{"start":54.116,"end":68.304,"text":"因為他們現在在相關的法規當中他們沒有辦法成立所謂第三方機構沒有辦法作為這個單獨驗證的機構他們必須要受雇於私人企業民間團體或是政府機關其實這個現象很有問題那後續我們再來看另外一個事情"},{"start":69.244,"end":83.806,"text":"如果我們來看這個食品安全管理目前分成三級品管制度如同我們這個投影片上秀出來的那第一個階段呢是食品業者必須自主管理第二個階段則是透過第三方驗證機構進行查核最後才是政府機場可是呢"},{"start":84.767,"end":89.809,"text":"我們來看一下到底誰要進入所謂第三方驗證機構的查核在這個相關法規裡面規定的是這個我的紅色框框裡面例如說資本額3000萬以上或者是相關的食品添加業這些這些這些其實都是比較中大型的公司規模所以我們來看一下這個問題到底是什麼"},{"start":102.375,"end":116.922,"text":"其實全臺灣目前登記的食品業者總數有60幾萬家可是可以進到我剛剛頭影片說的這個第二層被第三方驗證機構查核登記的食品業者目前只有626家也就是說60幾萬比照626家其實有將近99.9%的民間業者他們必須進行這個"},{"start":126.727,"end":145.789,"text":"自主管理所以也就是說整個食品業者的管理裡面有這麼多要依靠他們部長你覺得聽到目前為止您覺得有哪些問題其實我們這第三方院政機構就是說第二級的評管的這個部門是國內相當欠缺的"},{"start":146.932,"end":176.358,"text":"目前有四個啦,部長跟你報告這邊,四個驗證機構但是這個要建立公信力不是那麼容易可是我剛剛已經跟部長報告回過頭來看其實我們已經現在光是到111年年底已經有兩千多位食品科、食品技師他們已經經過國家高考可是募照現行的法規他們又沒有辦法進行單獨的職業的驗證所以有沒有機會我們就直接說有沒有機會我們認為目前所有食品技師都受僱在企業之中"},{"start":176.798,"end":185.321,"text":"他們要嘛就是要拿出自己的良心然後檢舉他們的老闆或者部長你覺得會有什麼可能性如果他們檢舉這個老闆可能他們自己會失業或者是他們的老闆可能甚至為了防堵他們雖然請了他們在裡頭根據法規的規定可是也可能不讓這些食品技師接觸核心把他們當成橡皮圖章"},{"start":198.726,"end":198.866,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":223.55,"end":235.962,"text":"我覺得是這樣如果你要食品技師單獨去做簽證的話他恐怕還是避免不了剛剛委員提到的就是說這一個老闆"},{"start":242.668,"end":266.288,"text":"但是因為我剛剛已經說了我知道部長您的擔心但是因為目前他們都被受雇在企業當中或是政府或是民間團體裡面可是就好像土木技師、會計師他們因為有這個第三方的驗證機構他們其實自己也要受到這個相關法規的規定那目前臺灣對於食品技師簽證制度沒有相關的規劃報告但是其實從2007年就已經有很多業者包含食品技師還有很多在意食安的民間團體一直提出這個訴求"},{"start":268.209,"end":288.515,"text":"但是因為今天有限,我們是不是可以請衛福部的三個月內規劃建立食品技師簽證制度規劃報告,有沒有機會?三個月我不知道能不能弄出來,因為這個牽涉是蠻大的。第一個,我個人認為,不是說由這些食品技師去做簽證就好了。"},{"start":288.635,"end":296.326,"text":"是當然他應該是要有機構啦是他必須要有機構裡面專門在做二級評管的機構對目前有二級有四個現在就是說好這個機構的話要能夠取得民眾的信任對這種簽證才會有效沒錯對"},{"start":303.996,"end":330.201,"text":"那這四個機構目前有的是否就能夠是是得到民眾的信任我覺得目前他們得到民眾信任度應該是有的可是他們目前負責的量能就是那600多家假設我們還要提出更多他們的量能是會有困難這部分的話真的是最大問題是這樣以前有GMP嘛曾經嘗試用GMP去建立食品GMP的制度後來一個"},{"start":331.181,"end":331.741,"text":"好 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