{"id":150834,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150834","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fc2590e2c5eb2d7f69da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a66096348b44ec061a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:29:00 - 09:44:38","影片長度":"00:15:38","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":938,"end_time":"2024-04-02T09:44:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T09:29:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":83,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時28分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請陳審計長。"],["主席：再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：陳審計長好。審記長，本席再順著剛剛委員的詢答，我再來確認一下，預算法第八十三條裡面有四款的項目，其中包括國家的災事或是經濟重大變故，以及不定期或數年一次的重大政事，那有具名的官員馬上受訪說，如果真的預算法第八十三條刪除第四項的不定期或數年一次之重大政事的話，未來國家發生大地震或是經濟大蕭條，我們當然不希望有這樣的可能性，但如果真的有大地震的話，可不可以動用預算法第八十三條？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果是緊急危難……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是重大災變？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：重大災變、緊急危難。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以大地震的話一樣可以用預算法第八十三條，特別預算可以動用，對不對？如果真的發生百年一見的經濟大蕭條，能不能用預算法第八十三條？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個在預算法裡面有……"],["洪委員孟楷：第二款是國家經濟重大變故，換言之，如果真的發生百年一見的大地震或是百年一見的經濟大蕭條，完全不受第四款……如果沒有考慮到的話，一樣可以動用預算法第八十三條，是不是這樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：要符合那三款的條件。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，所以符合剛剛本席所講那三款的條件嘛？答案已經非常明確了。明明這是一個答詢的部分，但是剛剛有委員講了半天，都沒有給你時間發言，本席特別給你時間發言跟回答，就是預算法第八十三條其實是特別預算可以因應，如果國家真的有百年一見的大地震或是百年一見的經濟大蕭條的話，預算法第八十三條也是可以因應的，但是我們希望臺灣風調雨順、國泰民安。","接下來要請教，最近大家吵得沸沸揚揚的就是要補貼台電，電價上漲。本席看到之前經濟委員會也有委員詢問過主計長，主計長說今年有可能要再補助台電1,000億或1,500億，為什麼呢？因為之前政府已經有補助台電，不管是3,300億、1,500億還是疫後特別預算500億，今年又說1,000億，但主計長的答詢是依規定要等審計部審定之後才能動用，我想請教什麼時候審計部會審計？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為決算的部分他們有一個期程，行政院4月底會送過來，我們要花3個月的時間，7月底送到大院，我們審定的期間是7月31號會審定完成。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為主計長已經說會有這樣的額度，所以預計一定會有這樣的額度，是嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：額度要等我們審計以後，因為我們在審計的期間多多少少會支出，收入可能會增減，大概是這樣。初步他們的決算估出來有兩千多億。"],["洪委員孟楷：有兩千多億，但多多少少扣除後可能會有1,000億以上再去做補貼。我想請教，歲入、歲出也都要經過立法院來做確認，行政部門可以直接補貼嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個要編預算。"],["洪委員孟楷：也要編預算嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：要編預算。"],["洪委員孟楷：編列預算不管是用總預算，或是再編列一個特別預算，總是還要再經過立法院，是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，所有的支出都要經過立法院。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。所以我就覺得奇怪，為什麼現在在討論調漲電價，然後政府已經說一定會補助台電，好像都不用經過立法院，當立法院完全是橡皮圖章嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：可能是行政部門目前在討論這個案子。"],["洪委員孟楷：行政部門不用考慮到立法部門就對了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它形成預算……"],["洪委員孟楷：不用尊重立法部門？甚至行政部門也不用考慮到審計單位，就認為它現在有錢就可以補貼，反正7月時你們一定會交出至少超過1,000億的餘額讓他們發，是這樣嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為他們會做初估決算，初估出來有這樣的金額……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，我知道你可能不好答。本席看了這些報告，連書面資料本席都有翻閱過，其中用電的部分，我想審計部門也很重視並且有掌握，我想請教一下，現在經濟部一直說要大家當個聰明的用電人，挑選時間來用電，說這樣可以比較便宜。那你們有沒有帶頭以身作則，審計單位有沒有去瞭解，過去到現在台電或經濟部推了那麼久的智慧電表，所有的中央機關，到底有多少機關使用智慧電表，審計部門有沒有掌握、有沒有要求？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：智慧電表，對於台電的電費問題，我們有查過，像它的電表……"],["洪委員孟楷：有多少中央機關有裝智慧電表？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分我手上沒有這些資料，但是我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：你們有沒有要求中央機關至少要帶頭節約用電？因為現在經濟部告訴我們，民眾可以當個聰明的用電人，只要你裝智慧電表就可以比較便宜啊！那有多少的智慧電表是中央機關自己有裝？照理講審計單位是最後把關預算的部分，我們公帑當用則用、當省則省，能夠省下一塊錢是一塊錢嘛，所以審計部門過去到現在有沒有要求中央機關帶頭以身作則，是不是應該要裝智慧電表？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們希望智慧電表儘量趕快普及，因為不只中央各單位，連所有的商家、所有的民眾這樣做的話，對於我們整個電費的安排……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在普及率有多少？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有關普及率，因為我們有給他意見，當時的情況因為那個智慧電表進來有一點……"],["洪委員孟楷：你有給意見，審計長，所以就您的瞭解，我們現在普及率……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不大、不多。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝啦，審計長，您講的很委婉啦，其實現在智慧電表的普及率是非常低啦！我會提出來就是認為，審計單位其實真的可以要求中央主管機關用電也好都可以以身作則，而不是嘴巴一直叫民眾當聰明的用電人，但實際上自己沒有以身作則。","再請教一下審計長，食安問題最近大家也非常關心，審計部在2022年、也就是民國111年度就已經有報告指出，國際食品警訊監控機制行之多年，但是在111年也發生過冰淇淋、泡麵等驗出致癌物，當時就有講食藥署沒有掌握問題產品於國內流通的情況，這是審計部的一個報告；去年又發生了莓果驗出A肝病毒而有邊境管制的部分；今年又有所謂的蘇丹紅狀況。那我想請教，在過去這兩年，審計部111年就已經有提出衛福部食藥署應該要改善、要加強警訊監控並且滾動檢討標準作業流程，而食安層出不窮，審計部能夠接受現在行政部門這樣子怠惰的行為嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為食安問題，關心民眾的生命還有健康，所以今（113）年，我們現在在查整個食安，從食安五環的源頭控管、重建生產管理，還有加強查驗、加重廠商的責任……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，食安五環是什麼時候提出來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：105年。"],["洪委員孟楷：105年、2016年嘛。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：過去民進黨執政8年的時間，到現在2024年還在檢討食安五環，你有沒有印象，過去這幾年好像每年的審計報告裡面，一定會有一則、一章、一節討論到衛福部或是相關單位的食安問題要精進檢討？尤其2023年還有說下半年要啟動食安專案調查，這是媒體上的報導，你這邊有講到下半年要啟動食安專案調查，結果蘇丹紅事件就爆發了！蘇丹紅還是他們親口承認這不是個案、這個是系統性的食安問題，那行政部門到底有沒有把你們審計的建議、提醒、要求當一回事？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：食安問題我會列為我們審計部查到改善為止，我們有這個決心。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，您有這個決心多久了？過去有沒有這個決心？過去有？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：任何一個事情，只要它那個……我們都會下決心。"],["洪委員孟楷：111年的時候有這個決心、2022年有這個決心，結果2023年又有莓果事件；2023年有這個決心，2024年有蘇丹紅事件；2024年有這個決心，行政部門有可能520之後官員拍拍屁股走人，你們的決心在哪裡？你們的要求在哪裡？你們有沒有送監察院去做一個調查報告？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個都會送。"],["洪委員孟楷：會送，您說的。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以蘇丹紅事件預計要送誰？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個監察院已經啟動調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會出來這個？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：6月底會出來，因為我們7月會弄審核報告出來，所以整個食安的問題我們會從食安五環的每個面向來把它找出來，慢慢地共同和行政部門把這個問題看看能不能做一個解決。"],["洪委員孟楷：做一個解決，非常好。審計長，本席站在這邊跟您討論每一個問題其實都是站在同一陣線，有關食安問題，我雖然身為在野黨委員，但是我從來都不希望發生，因為發生了食安問題，受苦、受傷、受害的就是臺灣民眾，也因此能夠做好把關，這當然應該要做好把關，但為什麼今天會再次提出來？就是因為當我看到審計部門同仁做出那麼一大本，而且這只是一本喔！其實有上下冊，做出那麼多資料的時候，結果發覺行政部門好像充耳不聞。我們明明已經有示警過了，食安問題，2022年就有示警過，2023年也出現，2024年也出現，你剛剛講的決心，我希望這個決心是有貫徹的，是真的能夠站在人民的同一陣線，幫人民把關，不要再發生食安問題。審計長，我會記住你的決心這一句話。","再來，您今天的口頭報告裡面洋洋灑灑，但是你的第一個最重要的報告，你列為是哪一個？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們在做關鍵審計，就包括食安、包括少子化、包括……"],["洪委員孟楷：非常好，第一個少子化，少子化推動計畫，我們從107年推動到113年，過去這6年的時間總共花了多少公務預算？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：兩千多億。"],["洪委員孟楷：4,851億，差了一倍，四千八百多億的公務預算來針對少子化的對策計畫，結果我們的生育率從投入的時候，106年是1.13人，逐步降到110年是0.98人，到111年創新低來到0.87人。四千多億花下去，結果我們的出生率不進反退，111年的時候變成只有0.87人。審計部裡面的資料你們也寫得很好，兩大重點，一、計畫著重在家庭經濟支柱跟營造友善的家庭職場環境，但這個是對於已婚或有小孩的，可是對於未婚族群的關注不足，就是已婚或有小孩的一直著重、一直丟入資源，但是未婚的連結婚都不敢結婚，你何來奢望他能夠生小孩？這是審計報告的第一點。","第二、由衛福部跟教育部輪流擔任計畫窗口，國人不婚、晚婚沒有主責單位，結果相關部會在報告裡面只針對執行的產出，後續進度跟未竟之業沒有著墨，待處理事項甚至還寫0。我想請教，6年過去了，少子化的對策計畫今年要做一個結案，花了四千多億，結果我們到現在還在討論到底哪一個單位要主責，是衛福部也好，還是教育部也好，還有國人晚婚、未婚的情況沒有主責單位。審計長，四千多億給行政部門丟下去了、用掉了、花掉了、沒了，怎麼解釋？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會儘量希望行政部門能夠……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，你是學科學的……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：但是行政部門已經在做實證，他也請國科會做這整個的研……因為原因很複雜啦！所以在做實證……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然知道複雜，所以我們花了四千多億！不是四千多塊、不是四千多萬，是四千多億啊！很複雜沒有錯，6年的時間給行政部門了，審計部也做出報告了，你自己的報告是說行政部門沒有主責單位，結果你現在在幫行政部門講話，你在說很複雜，然後你又講儘量，我剛剛講你是學數字、科學的人，怎麼會今天那麼多文青的字眼？怎麼那麼多形容詞來形容呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：在行政部門、在工作上，我也曾經在行政部門工作過，所以都有他的難處，但是我們審計部在後面一定會加強督促。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，在一個位置上就做一個位置的事，你現在是審計長，你是要幫人民把關預算，那麼厚的一個計畫書、那麼厚的一個審計書，本席可以把它看完，就是因為我重視你們的意見……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是因為我覺得你們的意見是專業的，但是不要用這樣的一個態度，行政部門如果真的浪費公帑的話，該講就講，該罵就罵！"],["主席：謝謝洪委員孟楷的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第3位張委員啓楷詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政\n府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告（中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30\n日）」審核經過並備諮詢－詢答完畢－","agenda_id":"1131801_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"150834","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150834","tool":"pyannote","id":"150834-pyannote"},"job_id":"sCQ9fZfVH33VRoX9","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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35.108, \"end\": 35.408, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 35.408, \"end\": 36.389, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"災\"}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 36.389, \"end\": 36.549, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 36.549, \"end\": 37.249, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 37.249, \"end\": 37.449, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 37.449, \"end\": 37.97, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"故\", \"start\": 37.97, \"end\": 38.19, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 38.19, \"end\": 38.35, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 38.35, \"end\": 39.09, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 39.09, \"end\": 39.23, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 39.23, \"end\": 39.49, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 39.49, \"end\": 40.051, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 40.051, \"end\": 40.291, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 40.291, \"end\": 40.451, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 40.451, \"end\": 40.571, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 40.571, \"end\": 40.771, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 40.771, \"end\": 40.891, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 40.891, \"end\": 41.091, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 41.091, \"end\": 41.331, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"震\", \"start\": 41.331, \"end\": 41.351, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}]}, {\"start\": 42.432, \"end\": 63.156, \"text\": \"那有官員巨名的官員馬上就受訪講說如果說真的預算法83條刪除第四項不定期或數年一次的重大政事的話未來國家發生大地震或者是經濟大蕭條我們當然不希望有這樣的一個可能性但如果說真的有大地震的話可不可以動用預算法第83條\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 42.432, \"end\": 42.592, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 42.592, \"end\": 43.353, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 43.353, \"end\": 44.254, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"巨\", \"start\": 44.254, 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47.718, \"end\": 49.18, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"刪\"}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 49.18, \"end\": 49.44, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 49.44, \"end\": 49.62, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 49.62, \"end\": 50.101, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 50.101, \"end\": 50.281, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 50.281, \"end\": 50.521, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 50.521, \"end\": 50.702, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 50.702, \"end\": 51.062, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 51.062, \"end\": 51.242, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 51.242, \"end\": 51.382, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 51.382, \"end\": 51.502, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 51.502, \"end\": 51.643, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 51.643, \"end\": 51.823, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 51.823, \"end\": 52.003, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 52.003, \"end\": 52.223, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 52.223, \"end\": 52.363, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 52.363, \"end\": 52.984, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 52.984, \"end\": 53.625, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 53.625, \"end\": 54.065, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 54.065, \"end\": 54.326, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 54.326, \"end\": 54.546, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 54.546, \"end\": 54.746, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"震\", \"start\": 54.746, \"end\": 55.006, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 55.006, \"end\": 55.147, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 55.147, \"end\": 55.327, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", 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\"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 58.651, \"end\": 59.311, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 59.311, \"end\": 59.491, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 59.491, \"end\": 59.632, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 59.632, \"end\": 59.992, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 59.992, \"end\": 60.152, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 60.152, \"end\": 60.232, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 60.232, \"end\": 60.372, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 60.372, \"end\": 60.533, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 60.533, \"end\": 60.673, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"震\", \"start\": 60.673, \"end\": 60.833, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 60.833, \"end\": 61.434, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 61.434, \"end\": 61.534, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 61.534, \"end\": 61.594, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 61.594, \"end\": 61.714, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 61.714, \"end\": 61.974, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 61.974, \"end\": 62.615, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 62.615, \"end\": 62.895, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 62.895, \"end\": 63.136, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 63.136, \"end\": 63.156, \"score\": 0.713}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}]}, {\"start\": 65.199, \"end\": 82.12, \"text\": \"那如果是緊急危難是不是重大災變重大災變緊急危難所以大地震的話一樣可以用預算法第83條特別預算可以動用對不對如果說有經濟大蕭條真的發生百年一見經濟大蕭條能不能用預算法第83條這個在預算裡面有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 65.199, \"end\": 65.74, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 65.74, \"end\": 65.84, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 65.84, \"end\": 66.0, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 66.0, \"end\": 66.4, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"緊\"}, 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{\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 73.489, \"end\": 73.689, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 73.689, \"end\": 74.01, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 74.01, \"end\": 74.21, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 74.21, \"end\": 74.31, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 74.31, \"end\": 74.57, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 74.57, \"end\": 74.851, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 74.851, \"end\": 75.832, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 75.832, \"end\": 76.032, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 76.032, \"end\": 76.533, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 76.533, \"end\": 77.194, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 77.194, \"end\": 78.035, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"蕭\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 78.035, \"end\": 78.315, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 78.315, \"end\": 78.756, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 78.756, \"end\": 78.996, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 78.996, \"end\": 79.136, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 79.136, \"end\": 79.737, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 79.737, \"end\": 79.857, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 79.857, \"end\": 80.638, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"蕭\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 80.638, \"end\": 80.818, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 80.818, \"end\": 81.018, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 81.018, \"end\": 81.178, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 81.178, \"end\": 81.299, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 81.299, \"end\": 81.439, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 81.439, \"end\": 81.579, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 81.579, \"end\": 81.699, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 81.699, \"end\": 81.899, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 81.899, \"end\": 82.039, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 82.039, \"end\": 82.1, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 82.1, \"end\": 82.12, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 85.613, \"end\": 111.792, \"text\": \"國家第二款嘛國家經濟重大變故嘛對不對所以換言之真的有發生百年一件的大地震或是發生百年一件的經濟大蕭條完全不受第四款如果說沒有考慮到的話一樣可以動用預算法83條是不是這樣子要符合那三款的條件是啊所以說符合剛剛本席所講的那三款條件嘛對不對所以\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 85.613, \"end\": 86.013, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 86.013, \"end\": 86.154, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 86.154, \"end\": 86.374, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"款\", \"start\": 86.374, \"end\": 86.534, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 86.534, \"end\": 87.014, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 87.014, \"end\": 87.695, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 87.695, \"end\": 87.955, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 87.955, \"end\": 88.495, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"故\", \"start\": 88.495, \"end\": 88.695, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 88.695, \"end\": 89.276, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 89.276, \"end\": 89.356, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 89.356, \"end\": 90.236, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 90.236, \"end\": 90.397, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"換\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 90.397, \"end\": 90.617, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 90.617, \"end\": 91.357, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 923.991, \"end\": 924.191, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 924.191, \"end\": 924.571, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 924.571, \"end\": 924.831, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 924.831, \"end\": 924.931, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 924.931, \"end\": 925.132, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 925.132, \"end\": 925.152, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,533 --> 00:00:10,058\n主席謝謝麻煩請省紀長再請陳省紀長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:41,351\n委員好沈記長好沈記長在順著剛剛委員的一個詢答我再來確認一下預算法第83條裡面有四款的一個項目其中包括說國家的災勢或是經濟重大變故以及不定期數年或一年的重大震勢\n\n3\n00:00:42,432 --> 00:01:03,156\n那有官員巨名的官員馬上就受訪講說如果說真的預算法83條刪除第四項不定期或數年一次的重大政事的話未來國家發生大地震或者是經濟大蕭條我們當然不希望有這樣的一個可能性但如果說真的有大地震的話可不可以動用預算法第83條\n\n4\n00:01:05,199 --> 00:01:22,120\n那如果是緊急危難是不是重大災變重大災變緊急危難所以大地震的話一樣可以用預算法第83條特別預算可以動用對不對如果說有經濟大蕭條真的發生百年一見經濟大蕭條能不能用預算法第83條這個在預算裡面有\n\n5\n00:01:25,613 --> 00:01:51,792\n國家第二款嘛國家經濟重大變故嘛對不對所以換言之真的有發生百年一件的大地震或是發生百年一件的經濟大蕭條完全不受第四款如果說沒有考慮到的話一樣可以動用預算法83條是不是這樣子要符合那三款的條件是啊所以說符合剛剛本席所講的那三款條件嘛對不對所以\n\n6\n00:01:53,151 --> 00:02:20,317\n答案非常的明確了吧所以剛剛我們有委員明明這個是一個答詢的部分但是委員講了半天但是都沒有給你時間發言本席特別給你時間來發言跟回答就是預算法83條其實是特別預算可以因應如果國家假設真的有重大百年一件的大地震或者是百年一件經濟大蕭的話預算法83條也是可以因應的但是我們希望台灣風調雨順國泰民難好\n\n7\n00:02:22,148 --> 00:02:26,436\n再回來請教最近大家吵得沸沸揚揚就要補貼台電電價上漲\n\n8\n00:02:28,769 --> 00:02:55,048\n那本時有看到說之前我們在經濟委員會也有委員有詢問過主計長主計長講說今年有可能要再補助台電一千五百億一千億或一千五百億為什麼呢因為之前政府已經有補助台電不管是三千三百億不管是一千五百億或是億後特別預算五百億現在今年又在說一千億啊但主計長答詢是說依規定要等審計部審定之後才能動用\n\n9\n00:02:56,138 --> 00:03:15,270\n那我想請教目前什麼時候審計部會審計因為結算他們有一個有一個期程他們行政院那邊會4月底送過來那我們要花3個月的時間7月底送到大院那我們審定的期間7月31號會審定完成所以現在預計因為主計長已經有講說有這樣的額度所以說預計一定會有這樣的額度是嗎\n\n10\n00:03:21,455 --> 00:03:34,252\n額度要等我們審計以後因為中間我們在審計的時候多多少少會租出可能會增減收入會增減大概這樣初步他們的結算估出來有2000多億\n\n11\n00:03:35,643 --> 00:03:51,108\n有兩千多億但是這樣子多多少少扣除有可能會有一千億以上來再去做一個補貼那我想請教我們這相關來說稅入稅出也都要經過立法院來做一個確認啊他可以直接行政部門就補貼嗎這個要變預算\n\n12\n00:03:54,520 --> 00:04:20,799\n也要編預算嗎?不管是之前編列預算：不管是用總預算：或者說再編列一個特別預算：總是還要再經過立法院嗎?對,要租出啊：所有的租出都要經過立法院是,所以說我想有些奇怪啊：為什麼像現在這邊討論說：調漲電價：然後這個政府已經講是說：就一定會補助台電：那好像都沒有經過立法院：這當立法院完全是橡皮獨張嗎?\n\n13\n00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:45,079\n這個是他可能在行政部門的一個目前在他的在提出在討論行政部門不用考慮到立法院就對立法部門不用尊重立法部門甚至行政部門也不用考慮到我們審計單位就認為是說他現在已經有錢就可以來補貼那反正七月的時候你們一定會交出一個至少超過一千億的這個餘額來讓他們發是這樣嗎\n\n14\n00:04:49,251 --> 00:05:16,437\n這個因為他們今年的他們會做粗估結算粗估出來啦有這樣的金額來沈議長我知道你可能不好答本席看了這個這一些的報告連書面資料本席都有翻閱過其中用電的部分我想你可能審計部門也很重視跟這個掌握我想請教一下現在經濟部這邊一直講說要大家當個聰明的用電人挑選時間來用電說這樣可以比較便宜\n\n15\n00:05:18,777 --> 00:05:32,618\n那我們有沒有帶頭以身作則,審計單位有沒有去了解過去到現在台電推了那麼久或經濟部推了那麼久的智慧電表我們所有的中央機關到底有多少機關使用智慧電表審計部門有沒有掌握\n\n16\n00:05:35,459 --> 00:06:01,098\n我們對於台電的這些電費的問題我們是有查過像它的電表我們有多少個中央機關有裝這個智慧電表這個部分我在我的手上沒有這些資料我們有沒有要求中央機關至少帶頭要節約用電因為現在經濟部門告訴我們就是說民眾可以當個聰明的用電人只要你裝智慧電表可以比較便宜\n\n17\n00:06:01,798 --> 00:06:21,173\n那我想是說有多少的智慧電表是我們中央機關自己有裝那照理講審計單位是最後把關預算的部分我們公堂當用則用當審則審能夠省下一塊錢是一塊錢嘛所以審計部門過去到現在有沒有要求中央機關帶頭以身作則是不是應該要裝智慧電表\n\n18\n00:06:22,435 --> 00:06:37,807\n我們有要把這個智慧電表希望盡量趕快普及因為這個不只中央各單位連所有的商家所有的我們的民眾這樣的話對於我們的我們現在普及率有多少\n\n19\n00:06:41,121 --> 00:06:58,971\n普及率因為我們有給他意見啦當時的情況因為那個智慧電表啊所以就您的了解我們現在普及率因為不大謝謝啦沈議長您講得很委婉啦其實現在智慧電表的普及率是非常低啦\n\n20\n00:06:59,619 --> 00:07:21,510\n那我會提出來就是認為是說我們審計單位其實真的可以要求我們的中央主管機關用電也好都可以以身作則而不是嘴巴一直叫民眾當聰明的用電人但實際上自己沒有以身作則來那個再請教一下審計長食安問題最近也大家非常的關心\n\n21\n00:07:22,591 --> 00:07:47,250\n我們在省紀部2022年也就是民國111年度就已經有報告指出國際食品警訊監控機制行事多年了但是在111年也發生過冰淇淋泡麵等驗出致癌物那當時就有講是說食藥署沒有掌握問題產品於國內流通的情況這是省紀部的一個報告\n\n22\n00:07:48,550 --> 00:08:16,355\n去年又發生了美國驗出A肝病毒而有這個邊境管制的一個部分那我想請教這個今年又有所謂的蘇丹紅的狀況那到底過去這兩年省紀部111年就已經有提出說衛福部食藥署應該要去做改善要加強警訊監控並且滾動檢討標準作業流程到底食安層出不窮\n\n23\n00:08:17,576 --> 00:08:20,170\n省紀部不能夠接受我們現在行政部門這樣子怠惰的行為嗎?\n\n24\n00:08:21,107 --> 00:08:46,707\n我們今年113年因為食安問題關心民眾的生命還有健康很大所以我們今年113年我們現在在查整個食安從食安五環每個從源頭控管重建生產管理還有加強查驗還有加重廠商的責任政治食安五環是什麼時候提出來105年\n\n25\n00:08:48,644 --> 00:09:09,433\n105年2016年嘛那過去民進黨執政的8年的時間呢到現在2024年的還在檢討說食安五環你有沒有印象當中過去這幾年好像每年我們的審計報告裡面一定會有一則一章一節就是討論到是說衛福部也好或是我們相關單位的食安問題要精進檢討\n\n26\n00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:39,500\n尤其你的2023年還有講說下半年要啟動食安專案調查這是媒體上的報導你這邊有講到下半年要啟動食安專案調查結果蘇丹紅事件就爆發了那蘇丹紅還是親口承認講說這不是個案這個是系統性的犯罪系統性的食安問題那行政部門到底有沒有把我們審計的建議提醒、要求當一回事\n\n27\n00:09:40,134 --> 00:09:53,746\n我們索案問題我會列為我們審計部查到改善為止我們有這個決心沈記長您有這個決心多久了過去有沒有這個決心\n\n28\n00:09:55,382 --> 00:10:19,039\n過去有111年的時候有這個決心2022年有這個決心結果2023年又有美國事件2023年有這個決心2024年有蘇丹紅事件2024年有這個決心行政部門他有可能520之後官員拍拍屁股走人我們的決心在哪裡我們的要求在哪裡那我們有沒有送相關的監察院來去做一個調查報告這個都會送\n\n29\n00:10:20,746 --> 00:10:47,271\n會送?您說的?對所以蘇彈虹事件預計要送誰?這個監察案已經啟動調查什麼時候會出來?這個我們6月底會出來因為我們7月會弄審核報告出來所以整個蘇安的問題我們會從蘇安武漢的每個面向把它找出來慢慢共同和行政部門把這個問題看看能不能做一個解決做一個解決非常好\n\n30\n00:10:48,240 --> 00:11:17,920\n沈議長本席站在這邊跟您我們其實在討論每一個問題都是站在同一陣線食安問題我雖然身為在野黨委員但是我從來都不希望發生因為發生了食安問題受苦受傷受害的就是我們台灣民眾也因此能夠做好把關這當然應該要做好把關但為什麼今天會再次提出來就是因為當我看到我們審計部門同仁做出那麼一大本而且這只是一本喔其實我們有上下策喔\n\n31\n00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:18,820\n陳議長我會記住你的決心這句話\n\n32\n00:11:43,149 --> 00:12:08,884\n再來您今天的口頭報告裡面洋洋灑灑但是您的第一個最重要的報告你列為是哪一個我們在做關鍵審計就包括食安包括少子化包括多少第一個少子化少子化推動計畫我們從107年推動到113年這過去6年時間總共花了多少公務預算\n\n33\n00:12:10,752 --> 00:12:23,790\n兩千多億四千八百五十一億差了一倍四千八百多億的公務預算來針對少子化的對策計畫結果我們的生育率\n\n34\n00:12:25,618 --> 00:12:46,206\n從投入的時候106年是1.13人逐步降到110年是0.98人到111年創新低來到0.87人4000多億花下去結果反而我們的出生率不進反退變成111年的時候只有0.87人\n\n35\n00:12:48,503 --> 00:13:05,418\n審計部裡面的資料你們也寫得很好阿兩大重點阿一、計畫著重在家庭經濟支柱跟營造友善的家庭職場環境但是這個是對於已婚或是有小孩的可是對於未婚族群的關注不足\n\n36\n00:13:06,158 --> 00:13:34,094\n就是說已婚或有小孩的一直著重一直丟入資源但是未婚的連結婚都不敢結婚你何來奢望他能夠生小孩這是審計報告的第一點第二點計劃由衛福部跟教育部輪流擔任計劃窗口國人不婚晚婚沒有主責單位結果相關部會在報告裡面只針對執行的產出後續進度跟未經之夜沒有著墨待處理事項甚至還寫零\n\n37\n00:13:35,762 --> 00:14:00,069\n那我想請教六年過去了今年要做一個結案少子化的對策計畫今年要做一個結案四千多億花了結果我們到現在還在討論是說到底哪一個單位要去主責是衛福部也好還是教育部也好那還有國人晚婚未婚的情況沒有主責單位沈記長四千多億給行政部門丟了丟了開了沒了怎麼解釋\n\n38\n00:14:05,302 --> 00:14:21,235\n我們會盡量和希望行政部門市長你是學科學的人吧已經在做俗正他也請國會做整個因為原因很複雜當然知道複雜所以我們花了4000多億不是4000多塊不是4000多塊是4000多億\n\n39\n00:14:26,980 --> 00:14:51,360\n很複雜沒有錯啊六年的時間給你行政部門了省紀部也做出報告了你自己的報告講是說行政部門沒有主責單位結果你現在在幫行政部門講話你在講說很複雜然後你要講說盡量我剛剛講你是學數字科學的人怎麼會今天那麼多文青的字眼怎麼那麼多這種形容詞來形容勒\n\n40\n00:14:53,978 --> 00:15:08,591\n這個做一個在行政部門在工作上我曾經在行政部門工作過所以都有他的難處但是我們我們損失部一定在後面一定會加強督促沈警長\n\n41\n00:15:11,383 --> 00:15:25,152\n在一個位置上就做一個位置的事你現在是審計長你是要幫人民把關預算那麼厚的一個計畫書那麼厚的一個審計書本席可以把它看完就是因為我重視你們的一個意見謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8533\t10058\t主席謝謝麻煩請省紀長再請陳省紀長備詢\n20680\t41351\t委員好 沈記長好沈記長 在順著剛剛委員的一個詢答我再來確認一下預算法第83條裡面有四款的一個項目其中包括說國家的災勢或是經濟重大變故以及不定期數年或一年的重大震勢\n42432\t63156\t那有官員巨名的官員馬上就受訪講說如果說真的預算法83條刪除第四項不定期或數年一次的重大政事的話未來國家發生大地震或者是經濟大蕭條我們當然不希望有這樣的一個可能性但如果說真的有大地震的話可不可以動用預算法第83條\n65199\t82120\t那如果是緊急危難是不是重大災變重大災變緊急危難所以大地震的話一樣可以用預算法第83條特別預算可以動用對不對如果說有經濟大蕭條真的發生百年一見經濟大蕭條能不能用預算法第83條這個在預算裡面有\n85613\t111792\t國家第二款嘛國家經濟重大變故嘛對不對所以換言之真的有發生百年一件的大地震或是發生百年一件的經濟大蕭條完全不受第四款如果說沒有考慮到的話一樣可以動用預算法83條是不是這樣子要符合那三款的條件是啊所以說符合剛剛本席所講的那三款條件嘛對不對所以\n113151\t140317\t答案非常的明確了吧所以剛剛我們有委員明明這個是一個答詢的部分但是委員講了半天但是都沒有給你時間發言本席特別給你時間來發言跟回答就是預算法83條其實是特別預算可以因應如果國家假設真的有重大百年一件的大地震或者是百年一件經濟大蕭的話預算法83條也是可以因應的但是我們希望台灣風調雨順國泰民難好\n142148\t146436\t再回來請教最近大家吵得沸沸揚揚就要補貼台電電價上漲\n148769\t175048\t那本時有看到說之前我們在經濟委員會也有委員有詢問過主計長主計長講說今年有可能要再補助台電一千五百億一千億或一千五百億為什麼呢因為之前政府已經有補助台電不管是三千三百億不管是一千五百億或是億後特別預算五百億現在今年又在說一千億啊但主計長答詢是說依規定要等審計部審定之後才能動用\n176138\t195270\t那我想請教目前什麼時候審計部會審計因為結算他們有一個有一個期程他們行政院那邊會4月底送過來那我們要花3個月的時間7月底送到大院那我們審定的期間7月31號會審定完成所以現在預計因為主計長已經有講說有這樣的額度所以說預計一定會有這樣的額度是嗎\n201455\t214252\t額度要等我們審計以後因為中間我們在審計的時候多多少少會租出可能會增減收入會增減大概這樣初步他們的結算估出來有2000多億\n215643\t231108\t有兩千多億但是這樣子多多少少扣除有可能會有一千億以上來再去做一個補貼那我想請教我們這相關來說稅入稅出也都要經過立法院來做一個確認啊他可以直接行政部門就補貼嗎這個要變預算\n234520\t260799\t也要編預算嗎?不管是之前編列預算：不管是用總預算：或者說再編列一個特別預算：總是還要再經過立法院嗎?對,要租出啊：所有的租出都要經過立法院是,所以說我想有些奇怪啊：為什麼像現在這邊討論說：調漲電價：然後這個政府已經講是說：就一定會補助台電：那好像都沒有經過立法院：這當立法院完全是橡皮獨張嗎?\n262280\t285079\t這個是他可能在行政部門的一個目前在他的在提出在討論行政部門不用考慮到立法院就對立法部門不用尊重立法部門甚至行政部門也不用考慮到我們審計單位就認為是說他現在已經有錢就可以來補貼那反正七月的時候你們一定會交出一個至少超過一千億的這個餘額來讓他們發是這樣嗎\n289251\t316437\t這個因為他們今年的他們會做粗估結算粗估出來啦有這樣的金額來 沈議長我知道你可能不好答本席看了這個這一些的報告連書面資料本席都有翻閱過其中用電的部分我想你可能審計部門也很重視跟這個掌握我想請教一下現在經濟部這邊一直講說要大家當個聰明的用電人挑選時間來用電說這樣可以比較便宜\n318777\t332618\t那我們有沒有帶頭以身作則,審計單位有沒有去了解過去到現在台電推了那麼久或經濟部推了那麼久的智慧電表我們所有的中央機關到底有多少機關使用智慧電表審計部門有沒有掌握\n335459\t361098\t我們對於台電的這些電費的問題我們是有查過像它的電表我們有多少個中央機關有裝這個智慧電表這個部分我在我的手上沒有這些資料我們有沒有要求中央機關至少帶頭要節約用電因為現在經濟部門告訴我們就是說民眾可以當個聰明的用電人只要你裝智慧電表可以比較便宜\n361798\t381173\t那我想是說有多少的智慧電表是我們中央機關自己有裝那照理講審計單位是最後把關預算的部分我們公堂當用則用當審則審能夠省下一塊錢是一塊錢嘛所以審計部門過去到現在有沒有要求中央機關帶頭以身作則是不是應該要裝智慧電表\n382435\t397807\t我們有要把這個智慧電表希望盡量趕快普及因為這個不只中央各單位連所有的商家所有的我們的民眾這樣的話對於我們的我們現在普及率有多少\n401121\t418971\t普及率因為我們有給他意見啦當時的情況因為那個智慧電表啊所以就您的了解我們現在普及率因為不大謝謝啦 沈議長您講得很委婉啦其實現在智慧電表的普及率是非常低啦\n419619\t441510\t那我會提出來就是認為是說我們審計單位其實真的可以要求我們的中央主管機關用電也好都可以以身作則而不是嘴巴一直叫民眾當聰明的用電人但實際上自己沒有以身作則來那個再請教一下審計長食安問題最近也大家非常的關心\n442591\t467250\t我們在省紀部2022年也就是民國111年度就已經有報告指出國際食品警訊監控機制行事多年了但是在111年也發生過冰淇淋泡麵等驗出致癌物那當時就有講是說食藥署沒有掌握問題產品於國內流通的情況這是省紀部的一個報告\n468550\t496355\t去年又發生了美國驗出A肝病毒而有這個邊境管制的一個部分那我想請教這個今年又有所謂的蘇丹紅的狀況那到底過去這兩年省紀部111年就已經有提出說衛福部食藥署應該要去做改善要加強警訊監控並且滾動檢討標準作業流程到底食安層出不窮\n497576\t500170\t省紀部不能夠接受我們現在行政部門這樣子怠惰的行為嗎?\n501107\t526707\t我們今年113年因為食安問題關心民眾的生命還有健康很大所以我們今年113年我們現在在查整個食安從食安五環每個從源頭控管重建生產管理還有加強查驗還有加重廠商的責任政治食安五環是什麼時候提出來105年\n528644\t549433\t105年2016年嘛那過去民進黨執政的8年的時間呢到現在2024年的還在檢討說食安五環你有沒有印象當中過去這幾年好像每年我們的審計報告裡面一定會有一則一章一節就是討論到是說衛福部也好或是我們相關單位的食安問題要精進檢討\n551240\t579500\t尤其你的2023年還有講說下半年要啟動食安專案調查這是媒體上的報導你這邊有講到下半年要啟動食安專案調查結果蘇丹紅事件就爆發了那蘇丹紅還是親口承認講說這不是個案這個是系統性的犯罪系統性的食安問題那行政部門到底有沒有把我們審計的建議提醒、要求當一回事\n580134\t593746\t我們索案問題我會列為我們審計部查到改善為止我們有這個決心沈記長您有這個決心多久了過去有沒有這個決心\n595382\t619039\t過去有111年的時候有這個決心2022年有這個決心結果2023年又有美國事件2023年有這個決心2024年有蘇丹紅事件2024年有這個決心行政部門他有可能520之後官員拍拍屁股走人我們的決心在哪裡我們的要求在哪裡那我們有沒有送相關的監察院來去做一個調查報告這個都會送\n620746\t647271\t會送?您說的?對所以蘇彈虹事件預計要送誰?這個監察案已經啟動調查什麼時候會出來?這個我們6月底會出來因為我們7月會弄審核報告出來所以整個蘇安的問題我們會從蘇安武漢的每個面向把它找出來慢慢共同和行政部門把這個問題看看能不能做一個解決做一個解決非常好\n648240\t677920\t沈議長本席站在這邊跟您我們其實在討論每一個問題都是站在同一陣線食安問題我雖然身為在野黨委員但是我從來都不希望發生因為發生了食安問題受苦受傷受害的就是我們台灣民眾也因此能夠做好把關這當然應該要做好把關但為什麼今天會再次提出來就是因為當我看到我們審計部門同仁做出那麼一大本而且這只是一本喔其實我們有上下策喔\n678200\t678820\t陳議長我會記住你的決心這句話\n703149\t728884\t再來您今天的口頭報告裡面洋洋灑灑但是您的第一個最重要的報告你列為是哪一個我們在做關鍵審計就包括食安包括少子化包括多少第一個少子化少子化推動計畫我們從107年推動到113年這過去6年時間總共花了多少公務預算\n730752\t743790\t兩千多億四千八百五十一億差了一倍四千八百多億的公務預算來針對少子化的對策計畫結果我們的生育率\n745618\t766206\t從投入的時候106年是1.13人逐步降到110年是0.98人到111年創新低來到0.87人4000多億花下去結果反而我們的出生率不進反退變成111年的時候只有0.87人\n768503\t785418\t審計部裡面的資料你們也寫得很好阿兩大重點阿一、計畫著重在家庭經濟支柱跟營造友善的家庭職場環境但是這個是對於已婚或是有小孩的可是對於未婚族群的關注不足\n786158\t814094\t就是說已婚或有小孩的一直著重一直丟入資源但是未婚的連結婚都不敢結婚你何來奢望他能夠生小孩這是審計報告的第一點第二點計劃由衛福部跟教育部輪流擔任計劃窗口國人不婚晚婚沒有主責單位結果相關部會在報告裡面只針對執行的產出後續進度跟未經之夜沒有著墨待處理事項甚至還寫零\n815762\t840069\t那我想請教六年過去了今年要做一個結案少子化的對策計畫今年要做一個結案四千多億花了結果我們到現在還在討論是說到底哪一個單位要去主責是衛福部也好還是教育部也好那還有國人晚婚未婚的情況沒有主責單位沈記長四千多億給行政部門丟了丟了開了沒了怎麼解釋\n845302\t861235\t我們會盡量和希望行政部門市長你是學科學的人吧已經在做俗正他也請國會做整個因為原因很複雜當然知道複雜所以我們花了4000多億不是4000多塊不是4000多塊是4000多億\n866980\t891360\t很複雜沒有錯啊六年的時間給你行政部門了省紀部也做出報告了你自己的報告講是說行政部門沒有主責單位結果你現在在幫行政部門講話你在講說很複雜然後你要講說盡量我剛剛講你是學數字科學的人怎麼會今天那麼多文青的字眼怎麼那麼多這種形容詞來形容勒\n893978\t908591\t這個做一個在行政部門在工作上我曾經在行政部門工作過所以都有他的難處但是我們我們損失部一定在後面一定會加強督促沈警長\n911383\t925152\t在一個位置上就做一個位置的事你現在是審計長你是要幫人民把關預算那麼厚的一個計畫書那麼厚的一個審計書本席可以把它看完就是因為我重視你們的一個意見謝謝\n","txt":"主席謝謝麻煩請省紀長再請陳省紀長備詢\n委員好 沈記長好沈記長 在順著剛剛委員的一個詢答我再來確認一下預算法第83條裡面有四款的一個項目其中包括說國家的災勢或是經濟重大變故以及不定期數年或一年的重大震勢\n那有官員巨名的官員馬上就受訪講說如果說真的預算法83條刪除第四項不定期或數年一次的重大政事的話未來國家發生大地震或者是經濟大蕭條我們當然不希望有這樣的一個可能性但如果說真的有大地震的話可不可以動用預算法第83條\n那如果是緊急危難是不是重大災變重大災變緊急危難所以大地震的話一樣可以用預算法第83條特別預算可以動用對不對如果說有經濟大蕭條真的發生百年一見經濟大蕭條能不能用預算法第83條這個在預算裡面有\n國家第二款嘛國家經濟重大變故嘛對不對所以換言之真的有發生百年一件的大地震或是發生百年一件的經濟大蕭條完全不受第四款如果說沒有考慮到的話一樣可以動用預算法83條是不是這樣子要符合那三款的條件是啊所以說符合剛剛本席所講的那三款條件嘛對不對所以\n答案非常的明確了吧所以剛剛我們有委員明明這個是一個答詢的部分但是委員講了半天但是都沒有給你時間發言本席特別給你時間來發言跟回答就是預算法83條其實是特別預算可以因應如果國家假設真的有重大百年一件的大地震或者是百年一件經濟大蕭的話預算法83條也是可以因應的但是我們希望台灣風調雨順國泰民難好\n再回來請教最近大家吵得沸沸揚揚就要補貼台電電價上漲\n那本時有看到說之前我們在經濟委員會也有委員有詢問過主計長主計長講說今年有可能要再補助台電一千五百億一千億或一千五百億為什麼呢因為之前政府已經有補助台電不管是三千三百億不管是一千五百億或是億後特別預算五百億現在今年又在說一千億啊但主計長答詢是說依規定要等審計部審定之後才能動用\n那我想請教目前什麼時候審計部會審計因為結算他們有一個有一個期程他們行政院那邊會4月底送過來那我們要花3個月的時間7月底送到大院那我們審定的期間7月31號會審定完成所以現在預計因為主計長已經有講說有這樣的額度所以說預計一定會有這樣的額度是嗎\n額度要等我們審計以後因為中間我們在審計的時候多多少少會租出可能會增減收入會增減大概這樣初步他們的結算估出來有2000多億\n有兩千多億但是這樣子多多少少扣除有可能會有一千億以上來再去做一個補貼那我想請教我們這相關來說稅入稅出也都要經過立法院來做一個確認啊他可以直接行政部門就補貼嗎這個要變預算\n也要編預算嗎?不管是之前編列預算：不管是用總預算：或者說再編列一個特別預算：總是還要再經過立法院嗎?對,要租出啊：所有的租出都要經過立法院是,所以說我想有些奇怪啊：為什麼像現在這邊討論說：調漲電價：然後這個政府已經講是說：就一定會補助台電：那好像都沒有經過立法院：這當立法院完全是橡皮獨張嗎?\n這個是他可能在行政部門的一個目前在他的在提出在討論行政部門不用考慮到立法院就對立法部門不用尊重立法部門甚至行政部門也不用考慮到我們審計單位就認為是說他現在已經有錢就可以來補貼那反正七月的時候你們一定會交出一個至少超過一千億的這個餘額來讓他們發是這樣嗎\n這個因為他們今年的他們會做粗估結算粗估出來啦有這樣的金額來 沈議長我知道你可能不好答本席看了這個這一些的報告連書面資料本席都有翻閱過其中用電的部分我想你可能審計部門也很重視跟這個掌握我想請教一下現在經濟部這邊一直講說要大家當個聰明的用電人挑選時間來用電說這樣可以比較便宜\n那我們有沒有帶頭以身作則,審計單位有沒有去了解過去到現在台電推了那麼久或經濟部推了那麼久的智慧電表我們所有的中央機關到底有多少機關使用智慧電表審計部門有沒有掌握\n我們對於台電的這些電費的問題我們是有查過像它的電表我們有多少個中央機關有裝這個智慧電表這個部分我在我的手上沒有這些資料我們有沒有要求中央機關至少帶頭要節約用電因為現在經濟部門告訴我們就是說民眾可以當個聰明的用電人只要你裝智慧電表可以比較便宜\n那我想是說有多少的智慧電表是我們中央機關自己有裝那照理講審計單位是最後把關預算的部分我們公堂當用則用當審則審能夠省下一塊錢是一塊錢嘛所以審計部門過去到現在有沒有要求中央機關帶頭以身作則是不是應該要裝智慧電表\n我們有要把這個智慧電表希望盡量趕快普及因為這個不只中央各單位連所有的商家所有的我們的民眾這樣的話對於我們的我們現在普及率有多少\n普及率因為我們有給他意見啦當時的情況因為那個智慧電表啊所以就您的了解我們現在普及率因為不大謝謝啦 沈議長您講得很委婉啦其實現在智慧電表的普及率是非常低啦\n那我會提出來就是認為是說我們審計單位其實真的可以要求我們的中央主管機關用電也好都可以以身作則而不是嘴巴一直叫民眾當聰明的用電人但實際上自己沒有以身作則來那個再請教一下審計長食安問題最近也大家非常的關心\n我們在省紀部2022年也就是民國111年度就已經有報告指出國際食品警訊監控機制行事多年了但是在111年也發生過冰淇淋泡麵等驗出致癌物那當時就有講是說食藥署沒有掌握問題產品於國內流通的情況這是省紀部的一個報告\n去年又發生了美國驗出A肝病毒而有這個邊境管制的一個部分那我想請教這個今年又有所謂的蘇丹紅的狀況那到底過去這兩年省紀部111年就已經有提出說衛福部食藥署應該要去做改善要加強警訊監控並且滾動檢討標準作業流程到底食安層出不窮\n省紀部不能夠接受我們現在行政部門這樣子怠惰的行為嗎?\n我們今年113年因為食安問題關心民眾的生命還有健康很大所以我們今年113年我們現在在查整個食安從食安五環每個從源頭控管重建生產管理還有加強查驗還有加重廠商的責任政治食安五環是什麼時候提出來105年\n105年2016年嘛那過去民進黨執政的8年的時間呢到現在2024年的還在檢討說食安五環你有沒有印象當中過去這幾年好像每年我們的審計報告裡面一定會有一則一章一節就是討論到是說衛福部也好或是我們相關單位的食安問題要精進檢討\n尤其你的2023年還有講說下半年要啟動食安專案調查這是媒體上的報導你這邊有講到下半年要啟動食安專案調查結果蘇丹紅事件就爆發了那蘇丹紅還是親口承認講說這不是個案這個是系統性的犯罪系統性的食安問題那行政部門到底有沒有把我們審計的建議提醒、要求當一回事\n我們索案問題我會列為我們審計部查到改善為止我們有這個決心沈記長您有這個決心多久了過去有沒有這個決心\n過去有111年的時候有這個決心2022年有這個決心結果2023年又有美國事件2023年有這個決心2024年有蘇丹紅事件2024年有這個決心行政部門他有可能520之後官員拍拍屁股走人我們的決心在哪裡我們的要求在哪裡那我們有沒有送相關的監察院來去做一個調查報告這個都會送\n會送?您說的?對所以蘇彈虹事件預計要送誰?這個監察案已經啟動調查什麼時候會出來?這個我們6月底會出來因為我們7月會弄審核報告出來所以整個蘇安的問題我們會從蘇安武漢的每個面向把它找出來慢慢共同和行政部門把這個問題看看能不能做一個解決做一個解決非常好\n沈議長本席站在這邊跟您我們其實在討論每一個問題都是站在同一陣線食安問題我雖然身為在野黨委員但是我從來都不希望發生因為發生了食安問題受苦受傷受害的就是我們台灣民眾也因此能夠做好把關這當然應該要做好把關但為什麼今天會再次提出來就是因為當我看到我們審計部門同仁做出那麼一大本而且這只是一本喔其實我們有上下策喔\n陳議長我會記住你的決心這句話\n再來您今天的口頭報告裡面洋洋灑灑但是您的第一個最重要的報告你列為是哪一個我們在做關鍵審計就包括食安包括少子化包括多少第一個少子化少子化推動計畫我們從107年推動到113年這過去6年時間總共花了多少公務預算\n兩千多億四千八百五十一億差了一倍四千八百多億的公務預算來針對少子化的對策計畫結果我們的生育率\n從投入的時候106年是1.13人逐步降到110年是0.98人到111年創新低來到0.87人4000多億花下去結果反而我們的出生率不進反退變成111年的時候只有0.87人\n審計部裡面的資料你們也寫得很好阿兩大重點阿一、計畫著重在家庭經濟支柱跟營造友善的家庭職場環境但是這個是對於已婚或是有小孩的可是對於未婚族群的關注不足\n就是說已婚或有小孩的一直著重一直丟入資源但是未婚的連結婚都不敢結婚你何來奢望他能夠生小孩這是審計報告的第一點第二點計劃由衛福部跟教育部輪流擔任計劃窗口國人不婚晚婚沒有主責單位結果相關部會在報告裡面只針對執行的產出後續進度跟未經之夜沒有著墨待處理事項甚至還寫零\n那我想請教六年過去了今年要做一個結案少子化的對策計畫今年要做一個結案四千多億花了結果我們到現在還在討論是說到底哪一個單位要去主責是衛福部也好還是教育部也好那還有國人晚婚未婚的情況沒有主責單位沈記長四千多億給行政部門丟了丟了開了沒了怎麼解釋\n我們會盡量和希望行政部門市長你是學科學的人吧已經在做俗正他也請國會做整個因為原因很複雜當然知道複雜所以我們花了4000多億不是4000多塊不是4000多塊是4000多億\n很複雜沒有錯啊六年的時間給你行政部門了省紀部也做出報告了你自己的報告講是說行政部門沒有主責單位結果你現在在幫行政部門講話你在講說很複雜然後你要講說盡量我剛剛講你是學數字科學的人怎麼會今天那麼多文青的字眼怎麼那麼多這種形容詞來形容勒\n這個做一個在行政部門在工作上我曾經在行政部門工作過所以都有他的難處但是我們我們損失部一定在後面一定會加強督促沈警長\n在一個位置上就做一個位置的事你現在是審計長你是要幫人民把關預算那麼厚的一個計畫書那麼厚的一個審計書本席可以把它看完就是因為我重視你們的一個意見謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.533 --> 00:10.058\n主席謝謝麻煩請省紀長再請陳省紀長備詢\n\n00:20.680 --> 00:41.351\n委員好沈記長好沈記長在順著剛剛委員的一個詢答我再來確認一下預算法第83條裡面有四款的一個項目其中包括說國家的災勢或是經濟重大變故以及不定期數年或一年的重大震勢\n\n00:42.432 --> 01:03.156\n那有官員巨名的官員馬上就受訪講說如果說真的預算法83條刪除第四項不定期或數年一次的重大政事的話未來國家發生大地震或者是經濟大蕭條我們當然不希望有這樣的一個可能性但如果說真的有大地震的話可不可以動用預算法第83條\n\n01:05.199 --> 01:22.120\n那如果是緊急危難是不是重大災變重大災變緊急危難所以大地震的話一樣可以用預算法第83條特別預算可以動用對不對如果說有經濟大蕭條真的發生百年一見經濟大蕭條能不能用預算法第83條這個在預算裡面有\n\n01:25.613 --> 01:51.792\n國家第二款嘛國家經濟重大變故嘛對不對所以換言之真的有發生百年一件的大地震或是發生百年一件的經濟大蕭條完全不受第四款如果說沒有考慮到的話一樣可以動用預算法83條是不是這樣子要符合那三款的條件是啊所以說符合剛剛本席所講的那三款條件嘛對不對所以\n\n01:53.151 --> 02:20.317\n答案非常的明確了吧所以剛剛我們有委員明明這個是一個答詢的部分但是委員講了半天但是都沒有給你時間發言本席特別給你時間來發言跟回答就是預算法83條其實是特別預算可以因應如果國家假設真的有重大百年一件的大地震或者是百年一件經濟大蕭的話預算法83條也是可以因應的但是我們希望台灣風調雨順國泰民難好\n\n02:22.148 --> 02:26.436\n再回來請教最近大家吵得沸沸揚揚就要補貼台電電價上漲\n\n02:28.769 --> 02:55.048\n那本時有看到說之前我們在經濟委員會也有委員有詢問過主計長主計長講說今年有可能要再補助台電一千五百億一千億或一千五百億為什麼呢因為之前政府已經有補助台電不管是三千三百億不管是一千五百億或是億後特別預算五百億現在今年又在說一千億啊但主計長答詢是說依規定要等審計部審定之後才能動用\n\n02:56.138 --> 03:15.270\n那我想請教目前什麼時候審計部會審計因為結算他們有一個有一個期程他們行政院那邊會4月底送過來那我們要花3個月的時間7月底送到大院那我們審定的期間7月31號會審定完成所以現在預計因為主計長已經有講說有這樣的額度所以說預計一定會有這樣的額度是嗎\n\n03:21.455 --> 03:34.252\n額度要等我們審計以後因為中間我們在審計的時候多多少少會租出可能會增減收入會增減大概這樣初步他們的結算估出來有2000多億\n\n03:35.643 --> 03:51.108\n有兩千多億但是這樣子多多少少扣除有可能會有一千億以上來再去做一個補貼那我想請教我們這相關來說稅入稅出也都要經過立法院來做一個確認啊他可以直接行政部門就補貼嗎這個要變預算\n\n03:54.520 --> 04:20.799\n也要編預算嗎?不管是之前編列預算：不管是用總預算：或者說再編列一個特別預算：總是還要再經過立法院嗎?對,要租出啊：所有的租出都要經過立法院是,所以說我想有些奇怪啊：為什麼像現在這邊討論說：調漲電價：然後這個政府已經講是說：就一定會補助台電：那好像都沒有經過立法院：這當立法院完全是橡皮獨張嗎?\n\n04:22.280 --> 04:45.079\n這個是他可能在行政部門的一個目前在他的在提出在討論行政部門不用考慮到立法院就對立法部門不用尊重立法部門甚至行政部門也不用考慮到我們審計單位就認為是說他現在已經有錢就可以來補貼那反正七月的時候你們一定會交出一個至少超過一千億的這個餘額來讓他們發是這樣嗎\n\n04:49.251 --> 05:16.437\n這個因為他們今年的他們會做粗估結算粗估出來啦有這樣的金額來沈議長我知道你可能不好答本席看了這個這一些的報告連書面資料本席都有翻閱過其中用電的部分我想你可能審計部門也很重視跟這個掌握我想請教一下現在經濟部這邊一直講說要大家當個聰明的用電人挑選時間來用電說這樣可以比較便宜\n\n05:18.777 --> 05:32.618\n那我們有沒有帶頭以身作則,審計單位有沒有去了解過去到現在台電推了那麼久或經濟部推了那麼久的智慧電表我們所有的中央機關到底有多少機關使用智慧電表審計部門有沒有掌握\n\n05:35.459 --> 06:01.098\n我們對於台電的這些電費的問題我們是有查過像它的電表我們有多少個中央機關有裝這個智慧電表這個部分我在我的手上沒有這些資料我們有沒有要求中央機關至少帶頭要節約用電因為現在經濟部門告訴我們就是說民眾可以當個聰明的用電人只要你裝智慧電表可以比較便宜\n\n06:01.798 --> 06:21.173\n那我想是說有多少的智慧電表是我們中央機關自己有裝那照理講審計單位是最後把關預算的部分我們公堂當用則用當審則審能夠省下一塊錢是一塊錢嘛所以審計部門過去到現在有沒有要求中央機關帶頭以身作則是不是應該要裝智慧電表\n\n06:22.435 --> 06:37.807\n我們有要把這個智慧電表希望盡量趕快普及因為這個不只中央各單位連所有的商家所有的我們的民眾這樣的話對於我們的我們現在普及率有多少\n\n06:41.121 --> 06:58.971\n普及率因為我們有給他意見啦當時的情況因為那個智慧電表啊所以就您的了解我們現在普及率因為不大謝謝啦沈議長您講得很委婉啦其實現在智慧電表的普及率是非常低啦\n\n06:59.619 --> 07:21.510\n那我會提出來就是認為是說我們審計單位其實真的可以要求我們的中央主管機關用電也好都可以以身作則而不是嘴巴一直叫民眾當聰明的用電人但實際上自己沒有以身作則來那個再請教一下審計長食安問題最近也大家非常的關心\n\n07:22.591 --> 07:47.250\n我們在省紀部2022年也就是民國111年度就已經有報告指出國際食品警訊監控機制行事多年了但是在111年也發生過冰淇淋泡麵等驗出致癌物那當時就有講是說食藥署沒有掌握問題產品於國內流通的情況這是省紀部的一個報告\n\n07:48.550 --> 08:16.355\n去年又發生了美國驗出A肝病毒而有這個邊境管制的一個部分那我想請教這個今年又有所謂的蘇丹紅的狀況那到底過去這兩年省紀部111年就已經有提出說衛福部食藥署應該要去做改善要加強警訊監控並且滾動檢討標準作業流程到底食安層出不窮\n\n08:17.576 --> 08:20.170\n省紀部不能夠接受我們現在行政部門這樣子怠惰的行為嗎?\n\n08:21.107 --> 08:46.707\n我們今年113年因為食安問題關心民眾的生命還有健康很大所以我們今年113年我們現在在查整個食安從食安五環每個從源頭控管重建生產管理還有加強查驗還有加重廠商的責任政治食安五環是什麼時候提出來105年\n\n08:48.644 --> 09:09.433\n105年2016年嘛那過去民進黨執政的8年的時間呢到現在2024年的還在檢討說食安五環你有沒有印象當中過去這幾年好像每年我們的審計報告裡面一定會有一則一章一節就是討論到是說衛福部也好或是我們相關單位的食安問題要精進檢討\n\n09:11.240 --> 09:39.500\n尤其你的2023年還有講說下半年要啟動食安專案調查這是媒體上的報導你這邊有講到下半年要啟動食安專案調查結果蘇丹紅事件就爆發了那蘇丹紅還是親口承認講說這不是個案這個是系統性的犯罪系統性的食安問題那行政部門到底有沒有把我們審計的建議提醒、要求當一回事\n\n09:40.134 --> 09:53.746\n我們索案問題我會列為我們審計部查到改善為止我們有這個決心沈記長您有這個決心多久了過去有沒有這個決心\n\n09:55.382 --> 10:19.039\n過去有111年的時候有這個決心2022年有這個決心結果2023年又有美國事件2023年有這個決心2024年有蘇丹紅事件2024年有這個決心行政部門他有可能520之後官員拍拍屁股走人我們的決心在哪裡我們的要求在哪裡那我們有沒有送相關的監察院來去做一個調查報告這個都會送\n\n10:20.746 --> 10:47.271\n會送?您說的?對所以蘇彈虹事件預計要送誰?這個監察案已經啟動調查什麼時候會出來?這個我們6月底會出來因為我們7月會弄審核報告出來所以整個蘇安的問題我們會從蘇安武漢的每個面向把它找出來慢慢共同和行政部門把這個問題看看能不能做一個解決做一個解決非常好\n\n10:48.240 --> 11:17.920\n沈議長本席站在這邊跟您我們其實在討論每一個問題都是站在同一陣線食安問題我雖然身為在野黨委員但是我從來都不希望發生因為發生了食安問題受苦受傷受害的就是我們台灣民眾也因此能夠做好把關這當然應該要做好把關但為什麼今天會再次提出來就是因為當我看到我們審計部門同仁做出那麼一大本而且這只是一本喔其實我們有上下策喔\n\n11:18.200 --> 11:18.820\n陳議長我會記住你的決心這句話\n\n11:43.149 --> 12:08.884\n再來您今天的口頭報告裡面洋洋灑灑但是您的第一個最重要的報告你列為是哪一個我們在做關鍵審計就包括食安包括少子化包括多少第一個少子化少子化推動計畫我們從107年推動到113年這過去6年時間總共花了多少公務預算\n\n12:10.752 --> 12:23.790\n兩千多億四千八百五十一億差了一倍四千八百多億的公務預算來針對少子化的對策計畫結果我們的生育率\n\n12:25.618 --> 12:46.206\n從投入的時候106年是1.13人逐步降到110年是0.98人到111年創新低來到0.87人4000多億花下去結果反而我們的出生率不進反退變成111年的時候只有0.87人\n\n12:48.503 --> 13:05.418\n審計部裡面的資料你們也寫得很好阿兩大重點阿一、計畫著重在家庭經濟支柱跟營造友善的家庭職場環境但是這個是對於已婚或是有小孩的可是對於未婚族群的關注不足\n\n13:06.158 --> 13:34.094\n就是說已婚或有小孩的一直著重一直丟入資源但是未婚的連結婚都不敢結婚你何來奢望他能夠生小孩這是審計報告的第一點第二點計劃由衛福部跟教育部輪流擔任計劃窗口國人不婚晚婚沒有主責單位結果相關部會在報告裡面只針對執行的產出後續進度跟未經之夜沒有著墨待處理事項甚至還寫零\n\n13:35.762 --> 14:00.069\n那我想請教六年過去了今年要做一個結案少子化的對策計畫今年要做一個結案四千多億花了結果我們到現在還在討論是說到底哪一個單位要去主責是衛福部也好還是教育部也好那還有國人晚婚未婚的情況沒有主責單位沈記長四千多億給行政部門丟了丟了開了沒了怎麼解釋\n\n14:05.302 --> 14:21.235\n我們會盡量和希望行政部門市長你是學科學的人吧已經在做俗正他也請國會做整個因為原因很複雜當然知道複雜所以我們花了4000多億不是4000多塊不是4000多塊是4000多億\n\n14:26.980 --> 14:51.360\n很複雜沒有錯啊六年的時間給你行政部門了省紀部也做出報告了你自己的報告講是說行政部門沒有主責單位結果你現在在幫行政部門講話你在講說很複雜然後你要講說盡量我剛剛講你是學數字科學的人怎麼會今天那麼多文青的字眼怎麼那麼多這種形容詞來形容勒\n\n14:53.978 --> 15:08.591\n這個做一個在行政部門在工作上我曾經在行政部門工作過所以都有他的難處但是我們我們損失部一定在後面一定會加強督促沈警長\n\n15:11.383 --> 15:25.152\n在一個位置上就做一個位置的事你現在是審計長你是要幫人民把關預算那麼厚的一個計畫書那麼厚的一個審計書本席可以把它看完就是因為我重視你們的一個意見謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.533,"end":10.058,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請省紀長再請陳省紀長備詢"},{"start":20.68,"end":41.351,"text":"委員好 沈記長好沈記長 在順著剛剛委員的一個詢答我再來確認一下預算法第83條裡面有四款的一個項目其中包括說國家的災勢或是經濟重大變故以及不定期數年或一年的重大震勢"},{"start":42.432,"end":63.156,"text":"那有官員巨名的官員馬上就受訪講說如果說真的預算法83條刪除第四項不定期或數年一次的重大政事的話未來國家發生大地震或者是經濟大蕭條我們當然不希望有這樣的一個可能性但如果說真的有大地震的話可不可以動用預算法第83條"},{"start":65.199,"end":82.12,"text":"那如果是緊急危難是不是重大災變重大災變緊急危難所以大地震的話一樣可以用預算法第83條特別預算可以動用對不對如果說有經濟大蕭條真的發生百年一見經濟大蕭條能不能用預算法第83條這個在預算裡面有"},{"start":85.613,"end":111.792,"text":"國家第二款嘛國家經濟重大變故嘛對不對所以換言之真的有發生百年一件的大地震或是發生百年一件的經濟大蕭條完全不受第四款如果說沒有考慮到的話一樣可以動用預算法83條是不是這樣子要符合那三款的條件是啊所以說符合剛剛本席所講的那三款條件嘛對不對所以"},{"start":113.151,"end":140.317,"text":"答案非常的明確了吧所以剛剛我們有委員明明這個是一個答詢的部分但是委員講了半天但是都沒有給你時間發言本席特別給你時間來發言跟回答就是預算法83條其實是特別預算可以因應如果國家假設真的有重大百年一件的大地震或者是百年一件經濟大蕭的話預算法83條也是可以因應的但是我們希望台灣風調雨順國泰民難好"},{"start":142.148,"end":146.436,"text":"再回來請教最近大家吵得沸沸揚揚就要補貼台電電價上漲"},{"start":148.769,"end":175.048,"text":"那本時有看到說之前我們在經濟委員會也有委員有詢問過主計長主計長講說今年有可能要再補助台電一千五百億一千億或一千五百億為什麼呢因為之前政府已經有補助台電不管是三千三百億不管是一千五百億或是億後特別預算五百億現在今年又在說一千億啊但主計長答詢是說依規定要等審計部審定之後才能動用"},{"start":176.138,"end":195.27,"text":"那我想請教目前什麼時候審計部會審計因為結算他們有一個有一個期程他們行政院那邊會4月底送過來那我們要花3個月的時間7月底送到大院那我們審定的期間7月31號會審定完成所以現在預計因為主計長已經有講說有這樣的額度所以說預計一定會有這樣的額度是嗎"},{"start":201.455,"end":214.252,"text":"額度要等我們審計以後因為中間我們在審計的時候多多少少會租出可能會增減收入會增減大概這樣初步他們的結算估出來有2000多億"},{"start":215.643,"end":231.108,"text":"有兩千多億但是這樣子多多少少扣除有可能會有一千億以上來再去做一個補貼那我想請教我們這相關來說稅入稅出也都要經過立法院來做一個確認啊他可以直接行政部門就補貼嗎這個要變預算"},{"start":234.52,"end":260.799,"text":"也要編預算嗎?不管是之前編列預算：不管是用總預算：或者說再編列一個特別預算：總是還要再經過立法院嗎?對,要租出啊：所有的租出都要經過立法院是,所以說我想有些奇怪啊：為什麼像現在這邊討論說：調漲電價：然後這個政府已經講是說：就一定會補助台電：那好像都沒有經過立法院：這當立法院完全是橡皮獨張嗎?"},{"start":262.28,"end":285.079,"text":"這個是他可能在行政部門的一個目前在他的在提出在討論行政部門不用考慮到立法院就對立法部門不用尊重立法部門甚至行政部門也不用考慮到我們審計單位就認為是說他現在已經有錢就可以來補貼那反正七月的時候你們一定會交出一個至少超過一千億的這個餘額來讓他們發是這樣嗎"},{"start":289.251,"end":316.437,"text":"這個因為他們今年的他們會做粗估結算粗估出來啦有這樣的金額來 沈議長我知道你可能不好答本席看了這個這一些的報告連書面資料本席都有翻閱過其中用電的部分我想你可能審計部門也很重視跟這個掌握我想請教一下現在經濟部這邊一直講說要大家當個聰明的用電人挑選時間來用電說這樣可以比較便宜"},{"start":318.777,"end":332.618,"text":"那我們有沒有帶頭以身作則,審計單位有沒有去了解過去到現在台電推了那麼久或經濟部推了那麼久的智慧電表我們所有的中央機關到底有多少機關使用智慧電表審計部門有沒有掌握"},{"start":335.459,"end":361.098,"text":"我們對於台電的這些電費的問題我們是有查過像它的電表我們有多少個中央機關有裝這個智慧電表這個部分我在我的手上沒有這些資料我們有沒有要求中央機關至少帶頭要節約用電因為現在經濟部門告訴我們就是說民眾可以當個聰明的用電人只要你裝智慧電表可以比較便宜"},{"start":361.798,"end":381.173,"text":"那我想是說有多少的智慧電表是我們中央機關自己有裝那照理講審計單位是最後把關預算的部分我們公堂當用則用當審則審能夠省下一塊錢是一塊錢嘛所以審計部門過去到現在有沒有要求中央機關帶頭以身作則是不是應該要裝智慧電表"},{"start":382.435,"end":397.807,"text":"我們有要把這個智慧電表希望盡量趕快普及因為這個不只中央各單位連所有的商家所有的我們的民眾這樣的話對於我們的我們現在普及率有多少"},{"start":401.121,"end":418.971,"text":"普及率因為我們有給他意見啦當時的情況因為那個智慧電表啊所以就您的了解我們現在普及率因為不大謝謝啦 沈議長您講得很委婉啦其實現在智慧電表的普及率是非常低啦"},{"start":419.619,"end":441.51,"text":"那我會提出來就是認為是說我們審計單位其實真的可以要求我們的中央主管機關用電也好都可以以身作則而不是嘴巴一直叫民眾當聰明的用電人但實際上自己沒有以身作則來那個再請教一下審計長食安問題最近也大家非常的關心"},{"start":442.591,"end":467.25,"text":"我們在省紀部2022年也就是民國111年度就已經有報告指出國際食品警訊監控機制行事多年了但是在111年也發生過冰淇淋泡麵等驗出致癌物那當時就有講是說食藥署沒有掌握問題產品於國內流通的情況這是省紀部的一個報告"},{"start":468.55,"end":496.355,"text":"去年又發生了美國驗出A肝病毒而有這個邊境管制的一個部分那我想請教這個今年又有所謂的蘇丹紅的狀況那到底過去這兩年省紀部111年就已經有提出說衛福部食藥署應該要去做改善要加強警訊監控並且滾動檢討標準作業流程到底食安層出不窮"},{"start":497.576,"end":500.17,"text":"省紀部不能夠接受我們現在行政部門這樣子怠惰的行為嗎?"},{"start":501.107,"end":526.707,"text":"我們今年113年因為食安問題關心民眾的生命還有健康很大所以我們今年113年我們現在在查整個食安從食安五環每個從源頭控管重建生產管理還有加強查驗還有加重廠商的責任政治食安五環是什麼時候提出來105年"},{"start":528.644,"end":549.433,"text":"105年2016年嘛那過去民進黨執政的8年的時間呢到現在2024年的還在檢討說食安五環你有沒有印象當中過去這幾年好像每年我們的審計報告裡面一定會有一則一章一節就是討論到是說衛福部也好或是我們相關單位的食安問題要精進檢討"},{"start":551.24,"end":579.5,"text":"尤其你的2023年還有講說下半年要啟動食安專案調查這是媒體上的報導你這邊有講到下半年要啟動食安專案調查結果蘇丹紅事件就爆發了那蘇丹紅還是親口承認講說這不是個案這個是系統性的犯罪系統性的食安問題那行政部門到底有沒有把我們審計的建議提醒、要求當一回事"},{"start":580.134,"end":593.746,"text":"我們索案問題我會列為我們審計部查到改善為止我們有這個決心沈記長您有這個決心多久了過去有沒有這個決心"},{"start":595.382,"end":619.039,"text":"過去有111年的時候有這個決心2022年有這個決心結果2023年又有美國事件2023年有這個決心2024年有蘇丹紅事件2024年有這個決心行政部門他有可能520之後官員拍拍屁股走人我們的決心在哪裡我們的要求在哪裡那我們有沒有送相關的監察院來去做一個調查報告這個都會送"},{"start":620.746,"end":647.271,"text":"會送?您說的?對所以蘇彈虹事件預計要送誰?這個監察案已經啟動調查什麼時候會出來?這個我們6月底會出來因為我們7月會弄審核報告出來所以整個蘇安的問題我們會從蘇安武漢的每個面向把它找出來慢慢共同和行政部門把這個問題看看能不能做一個解決做一個解決非常好"},{"start":648.24,"end":677.92,"text":"沈議長本席站在這邊跟您我們其實在討論每一個問題都是站在同一陣線食安問題我雖然身為在野黨委員但是我從來都不希望發生因為發生了食安問題受苦受傷受害的就是我們台灣民眾也因此能夠做好把關這當然應該要做好把關但為什麼今天會再次提出來就是因為當我看到我們審計部門同仁做出那麼一大本而且這只是一本喔其實我們有上下策喔"},{"start":678.2,"end":678.82,"text":"陳議長我會記住你的決心這句話"},{"start":703.149,"end":728.884,"text":"再來您今天的口頭報告裡面洋洋灑灑但是您的第一個最重要的報告你列為是哪一個我們在做關鍵審計就包括食安包括少子化包括多少第一個少子化少子化推動計畫我們從107年推動到113年這過去6年時間總共花了多少公務預算"},{"start":730.752,"end":743.79,"text":"兩千多億四千八百五十一億差了一倍四千八百多億的公務預算來針對少子化的對策計畫結果我們的生育率"},{"start":745.618,"end":766.206,"text":"從投入的時候106年是1.13人逐步降到110年是0.98人到111年創新低來到0.87人4000多億花下去結果反而我們的出生率不進反退變成111年的時候只有0.87人"},{"start":768.503,"end":785.418,"text":"審計部裡面的資料你們也寫得很好阿兩大重點阿一、計畫著重在家庭經濟支柱跟營造友善的家庭職場環境但是這個是對於已婚或是有小孩的可是對於未婚族群的關注不足"},{"start":786.158,"end":814.094,"text":"就是說已婚或有小孩的一直著重一直丟入資源但是未婚的連結婚都不敢結婚你何來奢望他能夠生小孩這是審計報告的第一點第二點計劃由衛福部跟教育部輪流擔任計劃窗口國人不婚晚婚沒有主責單位結果相關部會在報告裡面只針對執行的產出後續進度跟未經之夜沒有著墨待處理事項甚至還寫零"},{"start":815.762,"end":840.069,"text":"那我想請教六年過去了今年要做一個結案少子化的對策計畫今年要做一個結案四千多億花了結果我們到現在還在討論是說到底哪一個單位要去主責是衛福部也好還是教育部也好那還有國人晚婚未婚的情況沒有主責單位沈記長四千多億給行政部門丟了丟了開了沒了怎麼解釋"},{"start":845.302,"end":861.235,"text":"我們會盡量和希望行政部門市長你是學科學的人吧已經在做俗正他也請國會做整個因為原因很複雜當然知道複雜所以我們花了4000多億不是4000多塊不是4000多塊是4000多億"},{"start":866.98,"end":891.36,"text":"很複雜沒有錯啊六年的時間給你行政部門了省紀部也做出報告了你自己的報告講是說行政部門沒有主責單位結果你現在在幫行政部門講話你在講說很複雜然後你要講說盡量我剛剛講你是學數字科學的人怎麼會今天那麼多文青的字眼怎麼那麼多這種形容詞來形容勒"},{"start":893.978,"end":908.591,"text":"這個做一個在行政部門在工作上我曾經在行政部門工作過所以都有他的難處但是我們我們損失部一定在後面一定會加強督促沈警長"},{"start":911.383,"end":925.152,"text":"在一個位置上就做一個位置的事你現在是審計長你是要幫人民把關預算那麼厚的一個計畫書那麼厚的一個審計書本席可以把它看完就是因為我重視你們的一個意見謝謝"}]}}}}