{"id":150836,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150836","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fcdfe2713a715715ffda4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a6904b1091563e2b0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:01:36 - 10:16:12","影片長度":"00:14:36","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":876,"end_time":"2024-04-02T10:16:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T10:01:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":234,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時1分）好，謝謝主席，有請審計長，謝謝。"],["主席：再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，審計長早安。這是第一次有機會跟審計長做交流，之前有聽其他的立法院前輩提過，關於立法委員的質詢或是看審計部的報告，可以讓行政單位更加認真看待，所以在審計部的報告裡面，我們要先肯定審計部同仁的認真工作，但是時間有限，我們趕快來看一下審計部的相關報告。","在你們的報告當中，關於「少子女化及其衍生問題因應對策」，我在投影片上面框紅色的是你們寫到少子女化衍生的對策，其中你們放在第一個的叫做「提升婚育成效及婚育價值觀」。審計長，我想問一下什麼叫做婚育價值觀？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：就是希望能夠有家庭觀念，大家能夠結婚，我們希望多多結婚，小孩就有機會多生一點。"],["陳委員培瑜：審計長，你覺得真的只有結婚才能生小孩嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一般……"],["陳委員培瑜：或者是說把少子化的責任歸咎在大家不想結婚？如果我們讓一般民眾看到這個報告，您覺得對於這些不想結婚或是結了婚不想生小孩的人，他們看到這件事情，心裡面的感受是如何？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們是多面向，因為結婚了有生小孩的機會，我們是多面向，每一個面向我們都要去考慮，我剛剛講過，為了要解決這個錯綜複雜的問題，行政院已經請國科會做實證分析。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，我們剛剛也聽到，在前面委員的詢問當中，你也提到相關的分析，可是我要再一次提醒，在我們跟非常多的第一線或者是民間團體討論的過程中，我要再一次強調，同時我相信這也是執政黨很重要的立場：基本上育兒的責任，絕對不會只是母親的責任或是少子化跟婚姻之間的關係，我覺得都還有需要辯證、討論的地方。但是因為剛剛您說有相關的研究要進行，我相信後續會再提供更先進的或者是不要把這兩件事情綁在一起的、讓人覺得很保守的報告，我們相信也非常非常期待好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是我們時間有限，我先簡單的提醒一下，但是我們後續還是要看到、還是要肯定審計部提到關於少子化，你們提到依社家署補助辦理建構零到2歲兒童社區公共托育計畫，你們說執行效率不彰，你們也提到了公共化教保服務跟強化準公共機制供需失衡，以及沒有提供延長照顧的服務和教保服務人力結構不符合規定，這確實是我們目前在第一線蒐集到大家對於所謂友善育兒環境職場，大家在照顧小孩或者是決定要不要生養小孩，還是生養小孩之後要不要回到職場繼續貢獻自己的專業跟人力，這個部分確實是很多人的考量，所以我們看到審計部提出相關的糾正，我們覺得很重要，但是後續也要拜託審計部持續緊盯相關行政機關，這個部分可否請您留意一下？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，我們會追蹤改善情形。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。另外，關於勞動部，你們剛剛有提到一部分，但是我們要鄭重的建議一個很重要的事情，其實後續不管是托嬰、托幼的需求，還有勞動部關於友善職場的部分，其實有很多事情都要做，包括我們也跟部長討論過如何遠距工作、彈性工時，我覺得這都是目前非常多年輕的家庭他們所需要的，所以我們希望不是口號，如同您剛剛說的，會持續緊盯。","接下來，我們來看一下關於運動的部分，我們在你們的報告裡面看到了體育業務的糾正，其中你們提到了足球六年計畫，不知道這個部分您自己有沒有印象？你們說：推動足球六年計畫尚未達到世界排名的目標，要持續精進國家隊的組訓參賽，還有輔導企業球隊經營。我想要問一下，您覺得所謂世界排名的目標，放在這麼前面，您的想法是什麼？為什麼會以這個為目標？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們看到體育署有把這個列為目標，我們所有審計的依據，都會根據這個計畫，即他們定的計畫指標對他們給予提醒。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，也就是說，當一個國家主管體育的主管機關體育署認為，增進國家排名是主要目標，那我們就來看看，目前世界排名他們並沒有提升；企業球隊目前都是屬地經營，而且目前在臺灣屬地經營的、球隊經營的只有一隊。如果要精進所謂國家隊的這些目標，我們來看一下最大的困境是什麼：好，我們有一個六年足球計畫，其實比起世界排名，我們在基層或是在民間，甚至在所有運動員還有包含兒少運動員，還有積極參與投入自己家庭資源的家長身上，我們看到另外一個更嚴重的問題，我這邊務必要跟審計長分享，到底足球推動資源的投入，是不是真的花在刀口上，是我們要更關心的。","我們看到有一個足球六年計畫，甚至針對這個足球六年計畫，民間非常多團體他們還自己辦相關的檢討會，還分享他們在各地第一線所聽到的一些困境，包括表達他們不滿的聲音。不知道這個檢討報告審計長你們這邊有沒有看過或聽說過？為什麼要加入民間的聲音？這個部分我們想要請您分享看看您的觀點是什麼。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們看到民間有一些聲音出來，所以我們對這個正在瞭解。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，正在瞭解。所以你手上有相關的報告嗎？關於這個民間檢討的聲音。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，我們辦公室有，我們後續提供給你們參考。但我要說一下，為什麼這件事情這麼、這麼的重要，體育署在這個計畫裡面，他們說要提升參賽隊伍數量的KPI，這個好像一般行政機關很容易做，他們也覺得好像比較好做的事情，他們創造了一個好像國內足球隊蓬勃發展的狀態，我暫且不要說它是假象，怎麼說呢？因為我們看到另外一個狀況，為了衝球隊參賽數量的KPI，甚至他們有的學校是用籃球隊、田徑隊來報名參加足球比賽，拿到相關的補助，以至於到後面相關的決算遠遠超過預算。可是回頭看，一個政府部門執行了六年的足球計畫，它的相關目標、手段、成果都完全對不起來，更不要說我剛剛已經跟您分享了，所有民間自主投入的基層資源，從家長到小孩，到教練到很多的企業，大家都很努力。基層自立自強，可是到最後我們看到這個國家的足球六年發展計畫，卻有可能成為個別業務組的小金庫，他們如何看待手上這些經費？還有民間社區俱樂部正在蓬勃發展，但是社區俱樂部這件事情，卻沒有在相關體育署的政策視野發展當中，這個部分不知道您有沒有知道相關的亂象？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們整個的審計是以它的成效來看，它跑偏了，我們一定會給它意見。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。可是如果不在你們的認知當中，或是不在他們的政策規劃當中，確實如同您說的，不在你們的審計對象當中，所以我們要再次強調，目前這個六年足球計畫是執行到112年底，我這邊要強烈拜託審計部，在112年度的審計報告當中，要持續關注相關的足球六年發展計畫，或者是其他的體育署相關足球發展計畫，以上這個部分可不可以請審計長留意一下？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會提出審核意見，優先提供給委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝審計長。","我們來看下一個。我們看到審計部報告還提到另外一個，這是我們辦公室一直以來都非常、非常關心的，而且我們不只關心，還做了非常多的事，也就是兒少自殺死亡率這件事。不知道審計長有沒有看過類似新聞，知不知道目前在民間、在學校所發生的這個現象？關於兒少自殺率逐年提升這件事？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，我們在審核報告也有提出來這樣的……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們看到你們在衛福部的審核報告裡提到關於兒少自殺，你們說，國人自殺標準化死亡率尚未達成預期目標，且兒少族群自殺問題漸趨嚴重；你們還說，自殺通報個案數逐年增加，自殺關懷訪視員的案量負荷沉重。到目前為止，自殺防治法沒有規定、擬定全國自殺防治綱領報行政院核定實施。這是你們提出的問題，對嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我先要謝謝審計部認真的工作。我要說的是，你們提出的相關問題都很棒，因為對我們來說，讓孩子們安心長大的環境真的不只是學校老師的責任，也不是單一家庭的責任！過往大家都認為小孩健康成長、讓小孩好好長大，成為社會上有用的人力彷彿都是個別家庭的責任。但是我們都知道，現在社會環境的複雜，已經不是單一家庭或在學校求學階段就足以面對這麼多複雜的議題。孩子們出了學校拿起手機，他們對於數位接觸的熟悉，還有大人對於青少年文化的陌生，這部分我們辦公室之前甚至主動請衛福部來開會，主動請教育部來開會，甚至跨部會來開會。","我們就想如同您剛剛說的，面對少子化我們要做研議報告，所以我們辦公室甚至主動找了國科會、中研院，看可不可以啟動相關的研究報告？可是我們得到的答案目前都是模稜兩可，好像沒有人願意積極承擔，或把這件事當成主要的業務範圍。但我必須說，這個現象真的越來越嚴重，所以我在這邊要特別提出來，並拜託審計部，後續對於相關部會的兒少自殺死因回溯調查，可不可以提出更具體的建議，給予這些行政機關，讓他們有更積極的作為？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這部分我們會照委員的意思，在我們瞭解整個全面的情況以後，也會請教委員我們的意見是不是中肯。"],["陳委員培瑜：後續我們辦公室也很樂意再跟審計部保持積極的討論。如同我剛剛所說，我們辦公室自己都已經發動了這麼多的會議討論，就是希望可以從公部門的資源來協助解決這問題，因為兒少自殺不只是孩子沒有了生命，對於每個家庭、每個學校老師來說，都是一個悲傷的故事！所以我們希望這些悲傷的故事不要再發生！也因此，跨部會的事情後續也要拜託審計部積極緊盯相關行政單位的行政效率，可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：可以，謝謝委員，我們會努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後，審計長有去過簡報畫面中的這個球場嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：沒有。"],["陳委員培瑜：這是高雄的楠梓足球場。因為我生命中真的從來沒有看過足球比賽，所以我的助理帶我去看的第一場是臺灣隊對吉爾吉斯隊的比賽。當天的比賽其實我們所表現的成績不是太好，可是我要說，我在現場看到球員盡心盡力在球場上揮灑，但這個球場有什麼樣的問題？當時前瞻計畫規劃要建六個相關球場，後來只蓋了這個球場，不知道審計長知道這件事嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我有所瞭解。"],["陳委員培瑜：為什麼六個只蓋了一個？後續的經費都到哪裡去了？在你們相關報告裡，你有印象到底提到了些什麼嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這部分是因為有的進度落後，有的規劃不周、不全，所以就有檢討。其實足球對我們東方人來講，是一個很好的運動，所以我們會來努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：據我們所知，其實相關縣市政府或相關部會應該沒有把錢拿去規劃球場，所以到底發生了什麼事？我覺得審計部要主動追蹤……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：對於大家來說，我剛剛在前面的體育題目已經提到，臺灣的足球社區俱樂部蓬勃發展，他們參考了很多國外社區俱樂部的作法，所以很多家長、很多孩子自己投入時間、資源，他們不打算走學校體育班的系統，他們花很多的時間自己練球。可是光是要有一個合乎國際比賽規格的場地，在臺灣就有困難！何況我們還告訴自己，我們要發展成一個體育大國、一個足球大國，這怎麼可能？所以我請審計長再一次看看這個球場。說實話，我們去到這個球場，看到上排的燈光經費都不夠，我還問我助理說，為什麼有燈光的架子，卻沒有燈掛在下面？就只是先把它架好，可是因為錢不夠就沒有辦法再往下做。除了這個球場自己本身有問題之外，後續其他或是之前規劃要蓋的球場也都沒有真的蓋出來，所以這個部分真的要拜託審計部積極地去糾正、去盯緊，看看到底發生了什麼事情，或者是本來說好要拿去蓋球場的錢到底到哪裡去了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，這個球場我們會派人去實地瞭解之後給委員提出……"],["陳委員培瑜：也不是只有這個球場，還有我剛剛說本來要蓋6座嘛……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：其他那幾個的經費是怎麼使用的，我們也會整個瞭解。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，也就是說，看起來在你們的報告裡面是沒有提到這個部分啦，所以要拜託審計部積極地去緊盯這些事情。","簡單來說，我今天提了關於少子化的部分，還有兒少自殺需要你們跨部會，還有體育署的相關足球發展業務，還有剛剛我講的前瞻計畫足球場，也就是說，所有這些預算到最後都是落在服務臺灣未來的主人翁，也就是所有的兒少身上。當我們標榜我們要在意兒少的福利、我們要在意兒少的權益時，除了行政機關有相關的規劃跟政策執行之外，也要拜託審計部這邊要積極緊盯相關計畫的執行。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝委員，這個部分我們會照委員的意思來努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。以上，謝謝審計長，謝謝主席。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員培瑜的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","接下來請登記第5號林委員思銘詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政\n府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告（中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30\n日）」審核經過並備諮詢－詢答完畢－","agenda_id":"1131801_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"150836","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150836","tool":"pyannote","id":"150836-pyannote"},"job_id":"sl5IRbFRTXG2cVbH","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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866.062, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 866.062, \"end\": 866.162, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 866.162, \"end\": 866.182, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,856 --> 00:00:00,876\n詢問再請陳審計長\n\n2\n00:00:20,765 --> 00:00:42,535\n委員好好沈記長早安這是第一次有機會跟沈記長做交流之前有聽其他的立法院前輩提過關於立法委員的質詢或是看審計部的報告可以讓行政單位更加認真看待所以我們在審計部的報告裡面我們要先肯定審計部同仁的認真工作但是我們在這個相關的報告裡面我們時間有限我們趕快來看一下\n\n3\n00:00:43,215 --> 00:01:05,374\n在你們的報告當中關於這張投影片上面談到的少子化以及其延伸問題的因應對策其中我框紅線這一條你們寫到少子化延伸的對策其中你們放在第一個叫做提升婚育成效及婚育價值觀陳記長我想問一下什麼叫做婚育價值觀\n\n4\n00:01:08,114 --> 00:01:21,582\n就是說希望能夠有家庭觀念大家能夠結婚我們是希望多多結婚對於我們就有機會小孩就會多生一點\n\n5\n00:01:23,094 --> 00:01:42,242\n陳記長你覺得真的是只有結婚才能生小孩嗎?或者是說把少子化的這個責任歸咎在大家不想結婚如果我們讓一般的民眾看到這個報告您覺得對於這些不想結婚或是結了婚不想生小孩的人他們看到這件事情他們心裡面的感受是如何?\n\n6\n00:01:42,842 --> 00:01:54,833\n我們是多面向因為結婚了也有生小孩的那個我們是多面向每一個面向我們都要去考慮才能夠因為要解這個問題我剛剛講錯綜混雜所以行政院已經請國科會做實證分析\n\n7\n00:01:59,497 --> 00:02:29,137\n是,我們剛剛也聽到在前面委員的這個詢問當中你也提到相關的分析可是我要再次的提醒在我們跟非常多的第一線或者是民間團體討論的過程當中我要再次的強調同時我相信這也是執政黨很重要的立場基本上育兒的責任絕對不會只是母親的責任或者是少子化的關係跟婚姻之間的關係我覺得都還有需要辯證討論的地方但是因為剛剛您說有相關的研究要進行我相信後續會再提供更先進的或者是\n\n8\n00:02:30,278 --> 00:02:44,078\n不要把這兩件事情綁在一起了這樣子感覺讓人家覺得很保守的報告了我們相信我們非常非常期待好不好但是我們時間有限了我就是先簡單的提醒一下但是我們後續還是要看到還是要肯定這個審計部提到關於這個少子化\n\n9\n00:02:45,880 --> 00:03:02,750\n社家屬補助辦理建構0-20歲兒童社區公共托育計畫執行效率不彰公共化教保服務和強化准公共機制供需失衡沒有提供延長照顧的服務以及教保服務人力結構不符合規定\n\n10\n00:03:04,351 --> 00:03:30,771\n這確實是我目前在第一線所收集到大家對於所謂友善育兒環境職場大家在照顧小孩或是決定要不要生養小孩或是生養小孩之後要不要回到職場繼續貢獻自己的專業跟人力這個部分確實是很多人的考量所以這個部分我們看到審計部提出相關的糾正我們覺得很重要但是後續也要拜託審計部持續緊盯相關行政機關這個部分可不可以請您回應一下\n\n11\n00:03:32,455 --> 00:03:39,567\n最終改善情形好那另外一個關於這個勞動部你們剛剛有提到部分但是我要說我們要\n\n12\n00:03:41,128 --> 00:04:05,247\n正中建議一個很重要的事情其實後續不管是托嬰、托幼的需求還有勞動部關於友善職場的部分其實有很多事情都要做包括我們也跟部長討論過如何遠距工作彈性工時我覺得這都是目前非常多年輕的家庭他們所需要的所以我們也希望不是口號如同您剛說持續緊盯接下來我們來看一下另外關於這個運動的部分\n\n13\n00:04:07,847 --> 00:04:33,846\n我們在你們的報告裡面看到你們提到體育業務的糾正其中你們提到了足球六年計畫不知道這個部分您自己有沒有印象你們說推動足球六年計畫尚未達到世界排名的目標要持續精進國家隊的主訓參賽還有輔導企業球隊經營我想要問一下您覺得所謂的世界排名的目標放在這麼前面您的想法是為什麼為什麼會以這個為目標\n\n14\n00:04:35,447 --> 00:04:59,154\n因為我們是看到體育署有把這個列為目標我們的所有的損盡的那個依據啊都會根據啊這個計畫他們定的計畫主標啊給他給予提醒好那也就是說當一個國家主管體育的主管機關體育署他們認為增進國家排名是主要目標那我們就來看可是目前呢世界排名他們說沒有提升\n\n15\n00:04:59,654 --> 00:05:09,722\n企業球隊目前他們都是屬地經營可是目前在台灣屬地經營球隊經營只有一隊可是如果要精進所謂國家隊這些目標我們來看一下最大的困境是什麼\n\n16\n00:05:12,188 --> 00:05:36,296\n有一個6年足球計畫其實比起世界排名我們在基層或是在民間甚至在所有運動員還有包含兒少運動員還有積極參與投入自己家庭資源的家長身上我們看到另外一個更嚴重的問題我這邊務必要跟沈記長分享到底足球推動資源的投入是不是真的花在倒口上是我們要更關心的我們看到有一個足球6年計畫\n\n17\n00:05:37,216 --> 00:05:57,083\n甚至針對這個足球六年計畫民間的非常多團體他們還自己辦相關的檢討會還分享他們在各地第一線所聽到的一些困境表達他們不滿的聲音不知道這個檢討報告沈進長你們這邊有沒有看過或聽說過那為什麼要加入民間的聲音這個部分我們想要請您分享看看您的觀點是什麼\n\n18\n00:05:57,543 --> 00:06:18,857\n因為我們看到民間有出來有一些聲音出來是所以我們會對這一個現在正在了解好正在了解那所以你手上有相關的報告嗎關於這個民間的聲音檢討的聲音有那沒關係我們辦公室有我們後續提供給我們後續提供給你們分給你們參考但我要說一下為什麼這件事情這麼這麼的重要\n\n19\n00:06:20,692 --> 00:06:38,387\n體育署在這個計畫裡面他們說要提升參賽隊伍數量的KPI這個好像是一般行政機關很容易做他們也覺得好像比較好做的事情他們創造了一個好像國內足球隊蓬勃發展的這個狀態我暫且不要說它是假象怎麼說呢\n\n20\n00:06:39,028 --> 00:06:43,892\n我們看到另外一個狀況是為了衝這個球賽球隊參賽數量的KPI他們甚至呢有的是學校是用籃球隊田徑隊來報名參加足球比賽拿這個相關的補助以至於到後面相關的決算遠遠超過預算\n\n21\n00:06:54,500 --> 00:07:13,797\n可是回頭看一個計劃一個政府部門執行了6年的足球計劃他的相關目標、手段、成果都完全對不起來更不要說我剛剛已經跟您分享所有民間自主投入的基層的資源從家長到小孩到教練到很多的企業大家都努力基層自立自強\n\n22\n00:07:14,477 --> 00:07:35,054\n可是到最後我們看到這個國家足球六年發展計畫﹐卻有可能成為個別業務組的小金庫﹐他們如何看待手上這些經費﹐還有民間社區俱樂部正在蓬勃發展﹐但是社區俱樂部這件事情﹐卻沒有在相關體育組的眼睛的政策視野發展當中﹐這個部分不知道您有沒有知道相關的亂象\n\n23\n00:07:36,822 --> 00:07:58,734\n這個整個我們的審計啊以他的成效他跑偏了我們一定會給他意見好那如果也就是說可是如果不在你們的認知當中或是不在他們的政策規劃當中確實就很如同您說的不在你們的審計對象當中所以我們要再次強調目前這個六年足球計畫是執行到112年底我這邊要強烈的拜託審計部在112年度的審計報告當中要持續關注\n\n24\n00:08:04,737 --> 00:08:08,783\n相關足球六年發展計畫或其他體育署相關足球發展計畫?\n\n25\n00:08:20,083 --> 00:08:35,719\n另外我們提到我們看到這個審計部裡面還有另外一個我們辦公室一直以來都非常非常關心而且我們不是只有關心我們做了非常多的事情就是關於兒少自殺死亡率這件事情不知道沈記長你有沒有看過類似的新聞或是你知不知道目前在民間在學校這個現象\n\n26\n00:08:37,442 --> 00:08:42,664\n關於兒少自殺率逐年提升?你們的意見說國人自殺標準化死亡率尚未達成預期目標且兒少族群自殺問題漸趨嚴重你們還說自殺通報個案數逐年增加自殺關懷訪視員的案量負荷沉重\n\n27\n00:09:03,832 --> 00:09:26,806\n到目前為止自殺防治法沒有規定擬定全國自殺防治綱領報行政院核定實施這個是你們提出的問題對嗎對好這個先要謝謝審計部認真的工作但是我們要說相關的問題提出來都很棒因為對我們來說其實讓孩子們安心長大這個環境真的不是只是學校老師的責任也不是單一家庭的責任\n\n28\n00:09:27,726 --> 00:09:49,958\n過往大家都認為小孩健康的成長讓小孩好好的長大成為一個社會上有用的人力彷彿都是個別家庭的責任但是我們都知道現在社會環境的複雜已經不是一個單一家庭或者是在一個學校求學階段就能夠面對這麼多複雜的議題孩子們出了學校拿起手機他們對於數位接觸的熟悉還有我們大人對於青少年文化的陌生\n\n29\n00:09:50,878 --> 00:10:11,865\n這個部分我們辦公室甚至之前我們主動請衛福部來開會主動請教育部來開會甚至跨部會來開會那我們就想如同您剛剛說的面對少子化我們要做研議報告我們辦公室甚至主動找了國科會中研院可不可以啟動相關的研究報告可是我們得到的答案目前都是模擬兩可的\n\n30\n00:10:12,785 --> 00:10:32,586\n好像沒有人願意積極的承擔或是把這個事情當成是主要的業務範圍但是我必須說這個現象真的越來越嚴重所以這邊我特別提出來要拜託審計部在後續對於相關部會的兒少自殺死因回溯調查可不可以提出相關更具體的建議給予這些行政機關更積極的作為\n\n31\n00:10:35,613 --> 00:11:01,393\n這個部分我們會照委員的意思我們了解了整個前面的情況以後也會請教委員我們的意見是不是中和後續這邊我們辦公室也很樂意在跟審計部保持積極的討論因為如同我剛剛說的我們辦公室自己都已經發動了這麼多的會議討論就是希望可以從公部門的資源來協助解決這個問題因為兒少自殺不是只是孩子沒有了生命\n\n32\n00:11:01,853 --> 00:11:19,423\n對於每個家庭對於每個學校老師來說都是一個悲傷的故事所以我們希望這些悲傷的故事不要再發生所以跨部會的事情後續也要拜託審計部積極的緊盯相關的行政單位的行政效率可以嗎可以好謝謝委員我們會努力最後一個我們來看一下\n\n33\n00:11:20,806 --> 00:11:45,571\n沈記長你有去過這個球場嗎?沒有這個是高雄的男子足球場那這個是我的助理因為我生命中真的從來沒有看過這個足球比賽他第一場帶我去看的是台灣隊對於這個吉爾吉斯隊那我們當天的比賽其實表現成績不是太好可是我在現場我要說我看到球員盡心盡力在這個球場上揮灑可是這個球場有什麼樣的問題\n\n34\n00:11:46,511 --> 00:12:05,665\n這是當時前瞻計畫規劃要建6個相關的球場可是到了後來只蓋了這個球場不知道沈記長您知道這個事情嗎對,有所了解那為什麼只蓋6個只蓋了一個後續的經費都到哪裡去了你們相關報告裡面你有印象到底提到了些什麼嗎\n\n35\n00:12:07,083 --> 00:12:19,928\n這個部分因為有的進度落後有的規劃不足不淺所以就有檢討我們在整個如果足球對我們東方人來講是一個很好的一個運動我們會來努力\n\n36\n00:12:22,549 --> 00:12:39,864\n但是我們所知其實相關的縣市政府或者是相關的部會應該沒有把這個錢拿去規劃這個球場到底發生了什麼事情我覺得審計部這邊要主動的追蹤因為呢對於大家來說我剛剛已經在前面體育的題目裡我已經提到台灣的足球社區俱樂部蓬勃的發展\n\n37\n00:12:40,764 --> 00:12:55,877\n他們已經參考很多國外社區俱樂部的做法所以很多的家長很多的孩子自己投入時間自己投入資源他們不打算走學校體育班的系統他們花很多的時間自己練球可是光是要有一個合乎國際比賽規格的場地在台灣就有困難\n\n38\n00:12:56,437 --> 00:13:18,453\n更何況我們告訴我們自己我們要發展成一個體育大國一個足球大國這怎麼可能所以我剛剛想要再一次請省機長看這個球場而且說實話我們去到這個球場看到甚至這個上排喔他連燈光的部分金費都不夠我還問我助理說為什麼有那個燈光的架子可是卻沒有燈光在下面就只是先把它架好可是因為錢不夠都沒有辦法再往下做那\n\n39\n00:13:19,213 --> 00:13:34,431\n除了這個球場自己本身有問題之外後續其他或是之前規劃蓋球場也都沒有真的蓋出來所以這部分真的要拜託審計部積極的去糾正去盯緊到底發生了什麼事情或者是拿來本來說好要拿去蓋球場的錢到底到哪裡去了\n\n40\n00:13:35,049 --> 00:13:50,611\n好這個球場我們會派人到整個屬地了解以後給委員提出也不是只有這個球場還有我剛說本來要蓋六座嘛其他的那幾個那個經費他的這怎麼使用我們也會整個了解\n\n41\n00:13:50,891 --> 00:14:19,776\n好這個部分也就是說看起來在你們的報告裡面是沒有提到這個部分所以要拜託審計部積極的去緊盯這些事情所以簡單來說我今天提的關於少子化的部分還有兒少自殺需要你們跨部會還有體育署的相關足球發展業務還有還有剛剛我講的這個足球場前瞻計畫足球場也就是說所有這些預算它到最後都是落在服務台灣未來的主人翁就是所有的兒少身上當我們標榜我們要在意兒少的福利我們要在意兒少的權益\n\n42\n00:14:20,296 --> 00:14:26,182\n也要拜除行政機關他們有相關的規劃跟政策執行之外也要拜託審計部這邊要積極緊盯相關的計劃執行好謝謝委員我們會這個部分會照委員的意思來努力好謝謝以上謝謝沈記長謝謝主席謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n856\t876\t詢問再請陳審計長\n20765\t42535\t委員好好 沈記長早安這是第一次有機會跟沈記長做交流之前有聽其他的立法院前輩提過關於立法委員的質詢或是看審計部的報告可以讓行政單位更加認真看待所以我們在審計部的報告裡面我們要先肯定審計部同仁的認真工作但是我們在這個相關的報告裡面我們時間有限我們趕快來看一下\n43215\t65374\t在你們的報告當中關於這張投影片上面談到的少子化以及其延伸問題的因應對策其中我框紅線這一條你們寫到少子化延伸的對策其中你們放在第一個叫做提升婚育成效及婚育價值觀陳記長我想問一下什麼叫做婚育價值觀\n68114\t81582\t就是說希望能夠有家庭觀念大家能夠結婚我們是希望多多結婚對於我們就有機會小孩就會多生一點\n83094\t102242\t陳記長你覺得真的是只有結婚才能生小孩嗎?或者是說把少子化的這個責任歸咎在大家不想結婚如果我們讓一般的民眾看到這個報告您覺得對於這些不想結婚或是結了婚不想生小孩的人他們看到這件事情他們心裡面的感受是如何?\n102842\t114833\t我們是多面向因為結婚了也有生小孩的那個我們是多面向每一個面向我們都要去考慮才能夠因為要解這個問題我剛剛講錯綜混雜所以行政院已經請國科會做實證分析\n119497\t149137\t是,我們剛剛也聽到在前面委員的這個詢問當中你也提到相關的分析可是我要再次的提醒在我們跟非常多的第一線或者是民間團體討論的過程當中我要再次的強調同時我相信這也是執政黨很重要的立場基本上育兒的責任絕對不會只是母親的責任或者是少子化的關係跟婚姻之間的關係我覺得都還有需要辯證討論的地方但是因為剛剛您說有相關的研究要進行我相信後續會再提供更先進的或者是\n150278\t164078\t不要把這兩件事情綁在一起了這樣子感覺讓人家覺得很保守的報告了我們相信我們非常非常期待好不好但是我們時間有限了我就是先簡單的提醒一下但是我們後續還是要看到還是要肯定這個審計部提到關於這個少子化\n165880\t182750\t社家屬補助辦理建構0-20歲兒童社區公共托育計畫執行效率不彰公共化教保服務和強化准公共機制供需失衡沒有提供延長照顧的服務以及教保服務人力結構不符合規定\n184351\t210771\t這確實是我目前在第一線所收集到大家對於所謂友善育兒環境職場大家在照顧小孩或是決定要不要生養小孩或是生養小孩之後要不要回到職場繼續貢獻自己的專業跟人力這個部分確實是很多人的考量所以這個部分我們看到審計部提出相關的糾正我們覺得很重要但是後續也要拜託審計部持續緊盯相關行政機關這個部分可不可以請您回應一下\n212455\t219567\t最終改善情形好那另外一個關於這個勞動部你們剛剛有提到部分但是我要說我們要\n221128\t245247\t正中建議一個很重要的事情其實後續不管是托嬰、托幼的需求還有勞動部關於友善職場的部分其實有很多事情都要做包括我們也跟部長討論過如何遠距工作彈性工時我覺得這都是目前非常多年輕的家庭他們所需要的所以我們也希望不是口號如同您剛說持續緊盯接下來我們來看一下另外關於這個運動的部分\n247847\t273846\t我們在你們的報告裡面看到你們提到體育業務的糾正其中你們提到了足球六年計畫不知道這個部分您自己有沒有印象你們說推動足球六年計畫尚未達到世界排名的目標要持續精進國家隊的主訓參賽還有輔導企業球隊經營我想要問一下您覺得所謂的世界排名的目標放在這麼前面您的想法是為什麼為什麼會以這個為目標\n275447\t299154\t因為我們是看到體育署有把這個列為目標我們的所有的損盡的那個依據啊都會根據啊這個計畫他們定的計畫主標啊給他給予提醒好那也就是說當一個國家主管體育的主管機關體育署他們認為增進國家排名是主要目標那我們就來看可是目前呢世界排名他們說沒有提升\n299654\t309722\t企業球隊目前他們都是屬地經營可是目前在台灣屬地經營球隊經營只有一隊可是如果要精進所謂國家隊這些目標我們來看一下最大的困境是什麼\n312188\t336296\t有一個6年足球計畫其實比起世界排名我們在基層或是在民間甚至在所有運動員還有包含兒少運動員還有積極參與投入自己家庭資源的家長身上我們看到另外一個更嚴重的問題我這邊務必要跟沈記長分享到底足球推動資源的投入是不是真的花在倒口上是我們要更關心的我們看到有一個足球6年計畫\n337216\t357083\t甚至針對這個足球六年計畫民間的非常多團體他們還自己辦相關的檢討會還分享他們在各地第一線所聽到的一些困境表達他們不滿的聲音不知道這個檢討報告沈進長你們這邊有沒有看過或聽說過那為什麼要加入民間的聲音這個部分我們想要請您分享看看您的觀點是什麼\n357543\t378857\t因為我們看到民間有出來有一些聲音出來是所以我們會對這一個現在正在了解好正在了解那所以你手上有相關的報告嗎關於這個民間的聲音檢討的聲音有那沒關係我們辦公室有我們後續提供給我們後續提供給你們分給你們參考但我要說一下為什麼這件事情這麼這麼的重要\n380692\t398387\t體育署在這個計畫裡面他們說要提升參賽隊伍數量的KPI這個好像是一般行政機關很容易做他們也覺得好像比較好做的事情他們創造了一個好像國內足球隊蓬勃發展的這個狀態我暫且不要說它是假象怎麼說呢\n399028\t403892\t我們看到另外一個狀況是為了衝這個球賽球隊參賽數量的KPI他們甚至呢有的是學校是用籃球隊田徑隊來報名參加足球比賽拿這個相關的補助以至於到後面相關的決算遠遠超過預算\n414500\t433797\t可是回頭看一個計劃一個政府部門執行了6年的足球計劃他的相關目標、手段、成果都完全對不起來更不要說我剛剛已經跟您分享所有民間自主投入的基層的資源從家長到小孩到教練到很多的企業大家都努力基層自立自強\n434477\t455054\t可是到最後我們看到這個國家足球六年發展計畫﹐卻有可能成為個別業務組的小金庫﹐他們如何看待手上這些經費﹐還有民間社區俱樂部正在蓬勃發展﹐但是社區俱樂部這件事情﹐卻沒有在相關體育組的眼睛的政策視野發展當中﹐這個部分不知道您有沒有知道相關的亂象\n456822\t478734\t這個整個我們的審計啊以他的成效他跑偏了我們一定會給他意見好那如果也就是說可是如果不在你們的認知當中或是不在他們的政策規劃當中確實就很如同您說的不在你們的審計對象當中所以我們要再次強調目前這個六年足球計畫是執行到112年底我這邊要強烈的拜託審計部在112年度的審計報告當中要持續關注\n484737\t488783\t相關足球六年發展計畫或其他體育署相關足球發展計畫?\n500083\t515719\t另外我們提到我們看到這個審計部裡面還有另外一個我們辦公室一直以來都非常非常關心而且我們不是只有關心我們做了非常多的事情就是關於兒少自殺死亡率這件事情不知道沈記長你有沒有看過類似的新聞或是你知不知道目前在民間在學校這個現象\n517442\t522664\t關於兒少自殺率逐年提升?你們的意見說國人自殺標準化死亡率尚未達成預期目標且兒少族群自殺問題漸趨嚴重你們還說自殺通報個案數逐年增加自殺關懷訪視員的案量負荷沉重\n543832\t566806\t到目前為止自殺防治法沒有規定擬定全國自殺防治綱領報行政院核定實施這個是你們提出的問題對嗎對好這個先要謝謝審計部認真的工作但是我們要說相關的問題提出來都很棒因為對我們來說其實讓孩子們安心長大這個環境真的不是只是學校老師的責任也不是單一家庭的責任\n567726\t589958\t過往大家都認為小孩健康的成長讓小孩好好的長大成為一個社會上有用的人力彷彿都是個別家庭的責任但是我們都知道現在社會環境的複雜已經不是一個單一家庭或者是在一個學校求學階段就能夠面對這麼多複雜的議題孩子們出了學校拿起手機他們對於數位接觸的熟悉還有我們大人對於青少年文化的陌生\n590878\t611865\t這個部分我們辦公室甚至之前我們主動請衛福部來開會主動請教育部來開會甚至跨部會來開會那我們就想如同您剛剛說的面對少子化我們要做研議報告我們辦公室甚至主動找了國科會中研院可不可以啟動相關的研究報告可是我們得到的答案目前都是模擬兩可的\n612785\t632586\t好像沒有人願意積極的承擔或是把這個事情當成是主要的業務範圍但是我必須說這個現象真的越來越嚴重所以這邊我特別提出來要拜託審計部在後續對於相關部會的兒少自殺死因回溯調查可不可以提出相關更具體的建議給予這些行政機關更積極的作為\n635613\t661393\t這個部分我們會照委員的意思我們了解了整個前面的情況以後也會請教委員我們的意見是不是中和後續這邊我們辦公室也很樂意在跟審計部保持積極的討論因為如同我剛剛說的我們辦公室自己都已經發動了這麼多的會議討論就是希望可以從公部門的資源來協助解決這個問題因為兒少自殺不是只是孩子沒有了生命\n661853\t679423\t對於每個家庭對於每個學校老師來說都是一個悲傷的故事所以我們希望這些悲傷的故事不要再發生所以跨部會的事情後續也要拜託審計部積極的緊盯相關的行政單位的行政效率可以嗎可以好謝謝委員我們會努力最後一個我們來看一下\n680806\t705571\t沈記長你有去過這個球場嗎?沒有這個是高雄的男子足球場那這個是我的助理因為我生命中真的從來沒有看過這個足球比賽他第一場帶我去看的是台灣隊對於這個吉爾吉斯隊那我們當天的比賽其實表現成績不是太好可是我在現場我要說我看到球員盡心盡力在這個球場上揮灑可是這個球場有什麼樣的問題\n706511\t725665\t這是當時前瞻計畫規劃要建6個相關的球場可是到了後來只蓋了這個球場不知道沈記長您知道這個事情嗎對,有所了解那為什麼只蓋6個只蓋了一個後續的經費都到哪裡去了你們相關報告裡面你有印象到底提到了些什麼嗎\n727083\t739928\t這個部分因為有的進度落後有的規劃不足不淺所以就有檢討我們在整個如果足球對我們東方人來講是一個很好的一個運動我們會來努力\n742549\t759864\t但是我們所知其實相關的縣市政府或者是相關的部會應該沒有把這個錢拿去規劃這個球場到底發生了什麼事情我覺得審計部這邊要主動的追蹤因為呢對於大家來說我剛剛已經在前面體育的題目裡我已經提到台灣的足球社區俱樂部蓬勃的發展\n760764\t775877\t他們已經參考很多國外社區俱樂部的做法所以很多的家長很多的孩子自己投入時間自己投入資源他們不打算走學校體育班的系統他們花很多的時間自己練球可是光是要有一個合乎國際比賽規格的場地在台灣就有困難\n776437\t798453\t更何況我們告訴我們自己我們要發展成一個體育大國一個足球大國這怎麼可能所以我剛剛想要再一次請省機長看這個球場而且說實話我們去到這個球場看到甚至這個上排喔他連燈光的部分金費都不夠我還問我助理說為什麼有那個燈光的架子可是卻沒有燈光在下面就只是先把它架好可是因為錢不夠都沒有辦法再往下做那\n799213\t814431\t除了這個球場自己本身有問題之外後續其他或是之前規劃蓋球場也都沒有真的蓋出來所以這部分真的要拜託審計部積極的去糾正去盯緊到底發生了什麼事情或者是拿來本來說好要拿去蓋球場的錢到底到哪裡去了\n815049\t830611\t好 這個球場我們會派人到整個屬地了解以後給委員提出也不是只有這個球場還有我剛說本來要蓋六座嘛其他的那幾個那個經費他的這怎麼使用我們也會整個了解\n830891\t859776\t好 這個部分也就是說看起來在你們的報告裡面是沒有提到這個部分所以要拜託審計部積極的去緊盯這些事情所以簡單來說我今天提的關於少子化的部分還有兒少自殺需要你們跨部會還有體育署的相關足球發展業務還有還有剛剛我講的這個足球場前瞻計畫足球場也就是說所有這些預算它到最後都是落在服務台灣未來的主人翁就是所有的兒少身上當我們標榜我們要在意兒少的福利我們要在意兒少的權益\n860296\t866182\t也要拜除行政機關他們有相關的規劃跟政策執行之外也要拜託審計部這邊要積極緊盯相關的計劃執行好謝謝委員我們會這個部分會照委員的意思來努力好謝謝以上謝謝沈記長謝謝主席謝謝\n","txt":"詢問再請陳審計長\n委員好好 沈記長早安這是第一次有機會跟沈記長做交流之前有聽其他的立法院前輩提過關於立法委員的質詢或是看審計部的報告可以讓行政單位更加認真看待所以我們在審計部的報告裡面我們要先肯定審計部同仁的認真工作但是我們在這個相關的報告裡面我們時間有限我們趕快來看一下\n在你們的報告當中關於這張投影片上面談到的少子化以及其延伸問題的因應對策其中我框紅線這一條你們寫到少子化延伸的對策其中你們放在第一個叫做提升婚育成效及婚育價值觀陳記長我想問一下什麼叫做婚育價值觀\n就是說希望能夠有家庭觀念大家能夠結婚我們是希望多多結婚對於我們就有機會小孩就會多生一點\n陳記長你覺得真的是只有結婚才能生小孩嗎?或者是說把少子化的這個責任歸咎在大家不想結婚如果我們讓一般的民眾看到這個報告您覺得對於這些不想結婚或是結了婚不想生小孩的人他們看到這件事情他們心裡面的感受是如何?\n我們是多面向因為結婚了也有生小孩的那個我們是多面向每一個面向我們都要去考慮才能夠因為要解這個問題我剛剛講錯綜混雜所以行政院已經請國科會做實證分析\n是,我們剛剛也聽到在前面委員的這個詢問當中你也提到相關的分析可是我要再次的提醒在我們跟非常多的第一線或者是民間團體討論的過程當中我要再次的強調同時我相信這也是執政黨很重要的立場基本上育兒的責任絕對不會只是母親的責任或者是少子化的關係跟婚姻之間的關係我覺得都還有需要辯證討論的地方但是因為剛剛您說有相關的研究要進行我相信後續會再提供更先進的或者是\n不要把這兩件事情綁在一起了這樣子感覺讓人家覺得很保守的報告了我們相信我們非常非常期待好不好但是我們時間有限了我就是先簡單的提醒一下但是我們後續還是要看到還是要肯定這個審計部提到關於這個少子化\n社家屬補助辦理建構0-20歲兒童社區公共托育計畫執行效率不彰公共化教保服務和強化准公共機制供需失衡沒有提供延長照顧的服務以及教保服務人力結構不符合規定\n這確實是我目前在第一線所收集到大家對於所謂友善育兒環境職場大家在照顧小孩或是決定要不要生養小孩或是生養小孩之後要不要回到職場繼續貢獻自己的專業跟人力這個部分確實是很多人的考量所以這個部分我們看到審計部提出相關的糾正我們覺得很重要但是後續也要拜託審計部持續緊盯相關行政機關這個部分可不可以請您回應一下\n最終改善情形好那另外一個關於這個勞動部你們剛剛有提到部分但是我要說我們要\n正中建議一個很重要的事情其實後續不管是托嬰、托幼的需求還有勞動部關於友善職場的部分其實有很多事情都要做包括我們也跟部長討論過如何遠距工作彈性工時我覺得這都是目前非常多年輕的家庭他們所需要的所以我們也希望不是口號如同您剛說持續緊盯接下來我們來看一下另外關於這個運動的部分\n我們在你們的報告裡面看到你們提到體育業務的糾正其中你們提到了足球六年計畫不知道這個部分您自己有沒有印象你們說推動足球六年計畫尚未達到世界排名的目標要持續精進國家隊的主訓參賽還有輔導企業球隊經營我想要問一下您覺得所謂的世界排名的目標放在這麼前面您的想法是為什麼為什麼會以這個為目標\n因為我們是看到體育署有把這個列為目標我們的所有的損盡的那個依據啊都會根據啊這個計畫他們定的計畫主標啊給他給予提醒好那也就是說當一個國家主管體育的主管機關體育署他們認為增進國家排名是主要目標那我們就來看可是目前呢世界排名他們說沒有提升\n企業球隊目前他們都是屬地經營可是目前在台灣屬地經營球隊經營只有一隊可是如果要精進所謂國家隊這些目標我們來看一下最大的困境是什麼\n有一個6年足球計畫其實比起世界排名我們在基層或是在民間甚至在所有運動員還有包含兒少運動員還有積極參與投入自己家庭資源的家長身上我們看到另外一個更嚴重的問題我這邊務必要跟沈記長分享到底足球推動資源的投入是不是真的花在倒口上是我們要更關心的我們看到有一個足球6年計畫\n甚至針對這個足球六年計畫民間的非常多團體他們還自己辦相關的檢討會還分享他們在各地第一線所聽到的一些困境表達他們不滿的聲音不知道這個檢討報告沈進長你們這邊有沒有看過或聽說過那為什麼要加入民間的聲音這個部分我們想要請您分享看看您的觀點是什麼\n因為我們看到民間有出來有一些聲音出來是所以我們會對這一個現在正在了解好正在了解那所以你手上有相關的報告嗎關於這個民間的聲音檢討的聲音有那沒關係我們辦公室有我們後續提供給我們後續提供給你們分給你們參考但我要說一下為什麼這件事情這麼這麼的重要\n體育署在這個計畫裡面他們說要提升參賽隊伍數量的KPI這個好像是一般行政機關很容易做他們也覺得好像比較好做的事情他們創造了一個好像國內足球隊蓬勃發展的這個狀態我暫且不要說它是假象怎麼說呢\n我們看到另外一個狀況是為了衝這個球賽球隊參賽數量的KPI他們甚至呢有的是學校是用籃球隊田徑隊來報名參加足球比賽拿這個相關的補助以至於到後面相關的決算遠遠超過預算\n可是回頭看一個計劃一個政府部門執行了6年的足球計劃他的相關目標、手段、成果都完全對不起來更不要說我剛剛已經跟您分享所有民間自主投入的基層的資源從家長到小孩到教練到很多的企業大家都努力基層自立自強\n可是到最後我們看到這個國家足球六年發展計畫﹐卻有可能成為個別業務組的小金庫﹐他們如何看待手上這些經費﹐還有民間社區俱樂部正在蓬勃發展﹐但是社區俱樂部這件事情﹐卻沒有在相關體育組的眼睛的政策視野發展當中﹐這個部分不知道您有沒有知道相關的亂象\n這個整個我們的審計啊以他的成效他跑偏了我們一定會給他意見好那如果也就是說可是如果不在你們的認知當中或是不在他們的政策規劃當中確實就很如同您說的不在你們的審計對象當中所以我們要再次強調目前這個六年足球計畫是執行到112年底我這邊要強烈的拜託審計部在112年度的審計報告當中要持續關注\n相關足球六年發展計畫或其他體育署相關足球發展計畫?\n另外我們提到我們看到這個審計部裡面還有另外一個我們辦公室一直以來都非常非常關心而且我們不是只有關心我們做了非常多的事情就是關於兒少自殺死亡率這件事情不知道沈記長你有沒有看過類似的新聞或是你知不知道目前在民間在學校這個現象\n關於兒少自殺率逐年提升?你們的意見說國人自殺標準化死亡率尚未達成預期目標且兒少族群自殺問題漸趨嚴重你們還說自殺通報個案數逐年增加自殺關懷訪視員的案量負荷沉重\n到目前為止自殺防治法沒有規定擬定全國自殺防治綱領報行政院核定實施這個是你們提出的問題對嗎對好這個先要謝謝審計部認真的工作但是我們要說相關的問題提出來都很棒因為對我們來說其實讓孩子們安心長大這個環境真的不是只是學校老師的責任也不是單一家庭的責任\n過往大家都認為小孩健康的成長讓小孩好好的長大成為一個社會上有用的人力彷彿都是個別家庭的責任但是我們都知道現在社會環境的複雜已經不是一個單一家庭或者是在一個學校求學階段就能夠面對這麼多複雜的議題孩子們出了學校拿起手機他們對於數位接觸的熟悉還有我們大人對於青少年文化的陌生\n這個部分我們辦公室甚至之前我們主動請衛福部來開會主動請教育部來開會甚至跨部會來開會那我們就想如同您剛剛說的面對少子化我們要做研議報告我們辦公室甚至主動找了國科會中研院可不可以啟動相關的研究報告可是我們得到的答案目前都是模擬兩可的\n好像沒有人願意積極的承擔或是把這個事情當成是主要的業務範圍但是我必須說這個現象真的越來越嚴重所以這邊我特別提出來要拜託審計部在後續對於相關部會的兒少自殺死因回溯調查可不可以提出相關更具體的建議給予這些行政機關更積極的作為\n這個部分我們會照委員的意思我們了解了整個前面的情況以後也會請教委員我們的意見是不是中和後續這邊我們辦公室也很樂意在跟審計部保持積極的討論因為如同我剛剛說的我們辦公室自己都已經發動了這麼多的會議討論就是希望可以從公部門的資源來協助解決這個問題因為兒少自殺不是只是孩子沒有了生命\n對於每個家庭對於每個學校老師來說都是一個悲傷的故事所以我們希望這些悲傷的故事不要再發生所以跨部會的事情後續也要拜託審計部積極的緊盯相關的行政單位的行政效率可以嗎可以好謝謝委員我們會努力最後一個我們來看一下\n沈記長你有去過這個球場嗎?沒有這個是高雄的男子足球場那這個是我的助理因為我生命中真的從來沒有看過這個足球比賽他第一場帶我去看的是台灣隊對於這個吉爾吉斯隊那我們當天的比賽其實表現成績不是太好可是我在現場我要說我看到球員盡心盡力在這個球場上揮灑可是這個球場有什麼樣的問題\n這是當時前瞻計畫規劃要建6個相關的球場可是到了後來只蓋了這個球場不知道沈記長您知道這個事情嗎對,有所了解那為什麼只蓋6個只蓋了一個後續的經費都到哪裡去了你們相關報告裡面你有印象到底提到了些什麼嗎\n這個部分因為有的進度落後有的規劃不足不淺所以就有檢討我們在整個如果足球對我們東方人來講是一個很好的一個運動我們會來努力\n但是我們所知其實相關的縣市政府或者是相關的部會應該沒有把這個錢拿去規劃這個球場到底發生了什麼事情我覺得審計部這邊要主動的追蹤因為呢對於大家來說我剛剛已經在前面體育的題目裡我已經提到台灣的足球社區俱樂部蓬勃的發展\n他們已經參考很多國外社區俱樂部的做法所以很多的家長很多的孩子自己投入時間自己投入資源他們不打算走學校體育班的系統他們花很多的時間自己練球可是光是要有一個合乎國際比賽規格的場地在台灣就有困難\n更何況我們告訴我們自己我們要發展成一個體育大國一個足球大國這怎麼可能所以我剛剛想要再一次請省機長看這個球場而且說實話我們去到這個球場看到甚至這個上排喔他連燈光的部分金費都不夠我還問我助理說為什麼有那個燈光的架子可是卻沒有燈光在下面就只是先把它架好可是因為錢不夠都沒有辦法再往下做那\n除了這個球場自己本身有問題之外後續其他或是之前規劃蓋球場也都沒有真的蓋出來所以這部分真的要拜託審計部積極的去糾正去盯緊到底發生了什麼事情或者是拿來本來說好要拿去蓋球場的錢到底到哪裡去了\n好 這個球場我們會派人到整個屬地了解以後給委員提出也不是只有這個球場還有我剛說本來要蓋六座嘛其他的那幾個那個經費他的這怎麼使用我們也會整個了解\n好 這個部分也就是說看起來在你們的報告裡面是沒有提到這個部分所以要拜託審計部積極的去緊盯這些事情所以簡單來說我今天提的關於少子化的部分還有兒少自殺需要你們跨部會還有體育署的相關足球發展業務還有還有剛剛我講的這個足球場前瞻計畫足球場也就是說所有這些預算它到最後都是落在服務台灣未來的主人翁就是所有的兒少身上當我們標榜我們要在意兒少的福利我們要在意兒少的權益\n也要拜除行政機關他們有相關的規劃跟政策執行之外也要拜託審計部這邊要積極緊盯相關的計劃執行好謝謝委員我們會這個部分會照委員的意思來努力好謝謝以上謝謝沈記長謝謝主席謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.856 --> 00:00.876\n詢問再請陳審計長\n\n00:20.765 --> 00:42.535\n委員好好沈記長早安這是第一次有機會跟沈記長做交流之前有聽其他的立法院前輩提過關於立法委員的質詢或是看審計部的報告可以讓行政單位更加認真看待所以我們在審計部的報告裡面我們要先肯定審計部同仁的認真工作但是我們在這個相關的報告裡面我們時間有限我們趕快來看一下\n\n00:43.215 --> 01:05.374\n在你們的報告當中關於這張投影片上面談到的少子化以及其延伸問題的因應對策其中我框紅線這一條你們寫到少子化延伸的對策其中你們放在第一個叫做提升婚育成效及婚育價值觀陳記長我想問一下什麼叫做婚育價值觀\n\n01:08.114 --> 01:21.582\n就是說希望能夠有家庭觀念大家能夠結婚我們是希望多多結婚對於我們就有機會小孩就會多生一點\n\n01:23.094 --> 01:42.242\n陳記長你覺得真的是只有結婚才能生小孩嗎?或者是說把少子化的這個責任歸咎在大家不想結婚如果我們讓一般的民眾看到這個報告您覺得對於這些不想結婚或是結了婚不想生小孩的人他們看到這件事情他們心裡面的感受是如何?\n\n01:42.842 --> 01:54.833\n我們是多面向因為結婚了也有生小孩的那個我們是多面向每一個面向我們都要去考慮才能夠因為要解這個問題我剛剛講錯綜混雜所以行政院已經請國科會做實證分析\n\n01:59.497 --> 02:29.137\n是,我們剛剛也聽到在前面委員的這個詢問當中你也提到相關的分析可是我要再次的提醒在我們跟非常多的第一線或者是民間團體討論的過程當中我要再次的強調同時我相信這也是執政黨很重要的立場基本上育兒的責任絕對不會只是母親的責任或者是少子化的關係跟婚姻之間的關係我覺得都還有需要辯證討論的地方但是因為剛剛您說有相關的研究要進行我相信後續會再提供更先進的或者是\n\n02:30.278 --> 02:44.078\n不要把這兩件事情綁在一起了這樣子感覺讓人家覺得很保守的報告了我們相信我們非常非常期待好不好但是我們時間有限了我就是先簡單的提醒一下但是我們後續還是要看到還是要肯定這個審計部提到關於這個少子化\n\n02:45.880 --> 03:02.750\n社家屬補助辦理建構0-20歲兒童社區公共托育計畫執行效率不彰公共化教保服務和強化准公共機制供需失衡沒有提供延長照顧的服務以及教保服務人力結構不符合規定\n\n03:04.351 --> 03:30.771\n這確實是我目前在第一線所收集到大家對於所謂友善育兒環境職場大家在照顧小孩或是決定要不要生養小孩或是生養小孩之後要不要回到職場繼續貢獻自己的專業跟人力這個部分確實是很多人的考量所以這個部分我們看到審計部提出相關的糾正我們覺得很重要但是後續也要拜託審計部持續緊盯相關行政機關這個部分可不可以請您回應一下\n\n03:32.455 --> 03:39.567\n最終改善情形好那另外一個關於這個勞動部你們剛剛有提到部分但是我要說我們要\n\n03:41.128 --> 04:05.247\n正中建議一個很重要的事情其實後續不管是托嬰、托幼的需求還有勞動部關於友善職場的部分其實有很多事情都要做包括我們也跟部長討論過如何遠距工作彈性工時我覺得這都是目前非常多年輕的家庭他們所需要的所以我們也希望不是口號如同您剛說持續緊盯接下來我們來看一下另外關於這個運動的部分\n\n04:07.847 --> 04:33.846\n我們在你們的報告裡面看到你們提到體育業務的糾正其中你們提到了足球六年計畫不知道這個部分您自己有沒有印象你們說推動足球六年計畫尚未達到世界排名的目標要持續精進國家隊的主訓參賽還有輔導企業球隊經營我想要問一下您覺得所謂的世界排名的目標放在這麼前面您的想法是為什麼為什麼會以這個為目標\n\n04:35.447 --> 04:59.154\n因為我們是看到體育署有把這個列為目標我們的所有的損盡的那個依據啊都會根據啊這個計畫他們定的計畫主標啊給他給予提醒好那也就是說當一個國家主管體育的主管機關體育署他們認為增進國家排名是主要目標那我們就來看可是目前呢世界排名他們說沒有提升\n\n04:59.654 --> 05:09.722\n企業球隊目前他們都是屬地經營可是目前在台灣屬地經營球隊經營只有一隊可是如果要精進所謂國家隊這些目標我們來看一下最大的困境是什麼\n\n05:12.188 --> 05:36.296\n有一個6年足球計畫其實比起世界排名我們在基層或是在民間甚至在所有運動員還有包含兒少運動員還有積極參與投入自己家庭資源的家長身上我們看到另外一個更嚴重的問題我這邊務必要跟沈記長分享到底足球推動資源的投入是不是真的花在倒口上是我們要更關心的我們看到有一個足球6年計畫\n\n05:37.216 --> 05:57.083\n甚至針對這個足球六年計畫民間的非常多團體他們還自己辦相關的檢討會還分享他們在各地第一線所聽到的一些困境表達他們不滿的聲音不知道這個檢討報告沈進長你們這邊有沒有看過或聽說過那為什麼要加入民間的聲音這個部分我們想要請您分享看看您的觀點是什麼\n\n05:57.543 --> 06:18.857\n因為我們看到民間有出來有一些聲音出來是所以我們會對這一個現在正在了解好正在了解那所以你手上有相關的報告嗎關於這個民間的聲音檢討的聲音有那沒關係我們辦公室有我們後續提供給我們後續提供給你們分給你們參考但我要說一下為什麼這件事情這麼這麼的重要\n\n06:20.692 --> 06:38.387\n體育署在這個計畫裡面他們說要提升參賽隊伍數量的KPI這個好像是一般行政機關很容易做他們也覺得好像比較好做的事情他們創造了一個好像國內足球隊蓬勃發展的這個狀態我暫且不要說它是假象怎麼說呢\n\n06:39.028 --> 06:43.892\n我們看到另外一個狀況是為了衝這個球賽球隊參賽數量的KPI他們甚至呢有的是學校是用籃球隊田徑隊來報名參加足球比賽拿這個相關的補助以至於到後面相關的決算遠遠超過預算\n\n06:54.500 --> 07:13.797\n可是回頭看一個計劃一個政府部門執行了6年的足球計劃他的相關目標、手段、成果都完全對不起來更不要說我剛剛已經跟您分享所有民間自主投入的基層的資源從家長到小孩到教練到很多的企業大家都努力基層自立自強\n\n07:14.477 --> 07:35.054\n可是到最後我們看到這個國家足球六年發展計畫﹐卻有可能成為個別業務組的小金庫﹐他們如何看待手上這些經費﹐還有民間社區俱樂部正在蓬勃發展﹐但是社區俱樂部這件事情﹐卻沒有在相關體育組的眼睛的政策視野發展當中﹐這個部分不知道您有沒有知道相關的亂象\n\n07:36.822 --> 07:58.734\n這個整個我們的審計啊以他的成效他跑偏了我們一定會給他意見好那如果也就是說可是如果不在你們的認知當中或是不在他們的政策規劃當中確實就很如同您說的不在你們的審計對象當中所以我們要再次強調目前這個六年足球計畫是執行到112年底我這邊要強烈的拜託審計部在112年度的審計報告當中要持續關注\n\n08:04.737 --> 08:08.783\n相關足球六年發展計畫或其他體育署相關足球發展計畫?\n\n08:20.083 --> 08:35.719\n另外我們提到我們看到這個審計部裡面還有另外一個我們辦公室一直以來都非常非常關心而且我們不是只有關心我們做了非常多的事情就是關於兒少自殺死亡率這件事情不知道沈記長你有沒有看過類似的新聞或是你知不知道目前在民間在學校這個現象\n\n08:37.442 --> 08:42.664\n關於兒少自殺率逐年提升?你們的意見說國人自殺標準化死亡率尚未達成預期目標且兒少族群自殺問題漸趨嚴重你們還說自殺通報個案數逐年增加自殺關懷訪視員的案量負荷沉重\n\n09:03.832 --> 09:26.806\n到目前為止自殺防治法沒有規定擬定全國自殺防治綱領報行政院核定實施這個是你們提出的問題對嗎對好這個先要謝謝審計部認真的工作但是我們要說相關的問題提出來都很棒因為對我們來說其實讓孩子們安心長大這個環境真的不是只是學校老師的責任也不是單一家庭的責任\n\n09:27.726 --> 09:49.958\n過往大家都認為小孩健康的成長讓小孩好好的長大成為一個社會上有用的人力彷彿都是個別家庭的責任但是我們都知道現在社會環境的複雜已經不是一個單一家庭或者是在一個學校求學階段就能夠面對這麼多複雜的議題孩子們出了學校拿起手機他們對於數位接觸的熟悉還有我們大人對於青少年文化的陌生\n\n09:50.878 --> 10:11.865\n這個部分我們辦公室甚至之前我們主動請衛福部來開會主動請教育部來開會甚至跨部會來開會那我們就想如同您剛剛說的面對少子化我們要做研議報告我們辦公室甚至主動找了國科會中研院可不可以啟動相關的研究報告可是我們得到的答案目前都是模擬兩可的\n\n10:12.785 --> 10:32.586\n好像沒有人願意積極的承擔或是把這個事情當成是主要的業務範圍但是我必須說這個現象真的越來越嚴重所以這邊我特別提出來要拜託審計部在後續對於相關部會的兒少自殺死因回溯調查可不可以提出相關更具體的建議給予這些行政機關更積極的作為\n\n10:35.613 --> 11:01.393\n這個部分我們會照委員的意思我們了解了整個前面的情況以後也會請教委員我們的意見是不是中和後續這邊我們辦公室也很樂意在跟審計部保持積極的討論因為如同我剛剛說的我們辦公室自己都已經發動了這麼多的會議討論就是希望可以從公部門的資源來協助解決這個問題因為兒少自殺不是只是孩子沒有了生命\n\n11:01.853 --> 11:19.423\n對於每個家庭對於每個學校老師來說都是一個悲傷的故事所以我們希望這些悲傷的故事不要再發生所以跨部會的事情後續也要拜託審計部積極的緊盯相關的行政單位的行政效率可以嗎可以好謝謝委員我們會努力最後一個我們來看一下\n\n11:20.806 --> 11:45.571\n沈記長你有去過這個球場嗎?沒有這個是高雄的男子足球場那這個是我的助理因為我生命中真的從來沒有看過這個足球比賽他第一場帶我去看的是台灣隊對於這個吉爾吉斯隊那我們當天的比賽其實表現成績不是太好可是我在現場我要說我看到球員盡心盡力在這個球場上揮灑可是這個球場有什麼樣的問題\n\n11:46.511 --> 12:05.665\n這是當時前瞻計畫規劃要建6個相關的球場可是到了後來只蓋了這個球場不知道沈記長您知道這個事情嗎對,有所了解那為什麼只蓋6個只蓋了一個後續的經費都到哪裡去了你們相關報告裡面你有印象到底提到了些什麼嗎\n\n12:07.083 --> 12:19.928\n這個部分因為有的進度落後有的規劃不足不淺所以就有檢討我們在整個如果足球對我們東方人來講是一個很好的一個運動我們會來努力\n\n12:22.549 --> 12:39.864\n但是我們所知其實相關的縣市政府或者是相關的部會應該沒有把這個錢拿去規劃這個球場到底發生了什麼事情我覺得審計部這邊要主動的追蹤因為呢對於大家來說我剛剛已經在前面體育的題目裡我已經提到台灣的足球社區俱樂部蓬勃的發展\n\n12:40.764 --> 12:55.877\n他們已經參考很多國外社區俱樂部的做法所以很多的家長很多的孩子自己投入時間自己投入資源他們不打算走學校體育班的系統他們花很多的時間自己練球可是光是要有一個合乎國際比賽規格的場地在台灣就有困難\n\n12:56.437 --> 13:18.453\n更何況我們告訴我們自己我們要發展成一個體育大國一個足球大國這怎麼可能所以我剛剛想要再一次請省機長看這個球場而且說實話我們去到這個球場看到甚至這個上排喔他連燈光的部分金費都不夠我還問我助理說為什麼有那個燈光的架子可是卻沒有燈光在下面就只是先把它架好可是因為錢不夠都沒有辦法再往下做那\n\n13:19.213 --> 13:34.431\n除了這個球場自己本身有問題之外後續其他或是之前規劃蓋球場也都沒有真的蓋出來所以這部分真的要拜託審計部積極的去糾正去盯緊到底發生了什麼事情或者是拿來本來說好要拿去蓋球場的錢到底到哪裡去了\n\n13:35.049 --> 13:50.611\n好這個球場我們會派人到整個屬地了解以後給委員提出也不是只有這個球場還有我剛說本來要蓋六座嘛其他的那幾個那個經費他的這怎麼使用我們也會整個了解\n\n13:50.891 --> 14:19.776\n好這個部分也就是說看起來在你們的報告裡面是沒有提到這個部分所以要拜託審計部積極的去緊盯這些事情所以簡單來說我今天提的關於少子化的部分還有兒少自殺需要你們跨部會還有體育署的相關足球發展業務還有還有剛剛我講的這個足球場前瞻計畫足球場也就是說所有這些預算它到最後都是落在服務台灣未來的主人翁就是所有的兒少身上當我們標榜我們要在意兒少的福利我們要在意兒少的權益\n\n14:20.296 --> 14:26.182\n也要拜除行政機關他們有相關的規劃跟政策執行之外也要拜託審計部這邊要積極緊盯相關的計劃執行好謝謝委員我們會這個部分會照委員的意思來努力好謝謝以上謝謝沈記長謝謝主席謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.856,"end":0.876,"text":"詢問再請陳審計長"},{"start":20.765,"end":42.535,"text":"委員好好 沈記長早安這是第一次有機會跟沈記長做交流之前有聽其他的立法院前輩提過關於立法委員的質詢或是看審計部的報告可以讓行政單位更加認真看待所以我們在審計部的報告裡面我們要先肯定審計部同仁的認真工作但是我們在這個相關的報告裡面我們時間有限我們趕快來看一下"},{"start":43.215,"end":65.374,"text":"在你們的報告當中關於這張投影片上面談到的少子化以及其延伸問題的因應對策其中我框紅線這一條你們寫到少子化延伸的對策其中你們放在第一個叫做提升婚育成效及婚育價值觀陳記長我想問一下什麼叫做婚育價值觀"},{"start":68.114,"end":81.582,"text":"就是說希望能夠有家庭觀念大家能夠結婚我們是希望多多結婚對於我們就有機會小孩就會多生一點"},{"start":83.094,"end":102.242,"text":"陳記長你覺得真的是只有結婚才能生小孩嗎?或者是說把少子化的這個責任歸咎在大家不想結婚如果我們讓一般的民眾看到這個報告您覺得對於這些不想結婚或是結了婚不想生小孩的人他們看到這件事情他們心裡面的感受是如何?"},{"start":102.842,"end":114.833,"text":"我們是多面向因為結婚了也有生小孩的那個我們是多面向每一個面向我們都要去考慮才能夠因為要解這個問題我剛剛講錯綜混雜所以行政院已經請國科會做實證分析"},{"start":119.497,"end":149.137,"text":"是,我們剛剛也聽到在前面委員的這個詢問當中你也提到相關的分析可是我要再次的提醒在我們跟非常多的第一線或者是民間團體討論的過程當中我要再次的強調同時我相信這也是執政黨很重要的立場基本上育兒的責任絕對不會只是母親的責任或者是少子化的關係跟婚姻之間的關係我覺得都還有需要辯證討論的地方但是因為剛剛您說有相關的研究要進行我相信後續會再提供更先進的或者是"},{"start":150.278,"end":164.078,"text":"不要把這兩件事情綁在一起了這樣子感覺讓人家覺得很保守的報告了我們相信我們非常非常期待好不好但是我們時間有限了我就是先簡單的提醒一下但是我們後續還是要看到還是要肯定這個審計部提到關於這個少子化"},{"start":165.88,"end":182.75,"text":"社家屬補助辦理建構0-20歲兒童社區公共托育計畫執行效率不彰公共化教保服務和強化准公共機制供需失衡沒有提供延長照顧的服務以及教保服務人力結構不符合規定"},{"start":184.351,"end":210.771,"text":"這確實是我目前在第一線所收集到大家對於所謂友善育兒環境職場大家在照顧小孩或是決定要不要生養小孩或是生養小孩之後要不要回到職場繼續貢獻自己的專業跟人力這個部分確實是很多人的考量所以這個部分我們看到審計部提出相關的糾正我們覺得很重要但是後續也要拜託審計部持續緊盯相關行政機關這個部分可不可以請您回應一下"},{"start":212.455,"end":219.567,"text":"最終改善情形好那另外一個關於這個勞動部你們剛剛有提到部分但是我要說我們要"},{"start":221.128,"end":245.247,"text":"正中建議一個很重要的事情其實後續不管是托嬰、托幼的需求還有勞動部關於友善職場的部分其實有很多事情都要做包括我們也跟部長討論過如何遠距工作彈性工時我覺得這都是目前非常多年輕的家庭他們所需要的所以我們也希望不是口號如同您剛說持續緊盯接下來我們來看一下另外關於這個運動的部分"},{"start":247.847,"end":273.846,"text":"我們在你們的報告裡面看到你們提到體育業務的糾正其中你們提到了足球六年計畫不知道這個部分您自己有沒有印象你們說推動足球六年計畫尚未達到世界排名的目標要持續精進國家隊的主訓參賽還有輔導企業球隊經營我想要問一下您覺得所謂的世界排名的目標放在這麼前面您的想法是為什麼為什麼會以這個為目標"},{"start":275.447,"end":299.154,"text":"因為我們是看到體育署有把這個列為目標我們的所有的損盡的那個依據啊都會根據啊這個計畫他們定的計畫主標啊給他給予提醒好那也就是說當一個國家主管體育的主管機關體育署他們認為增進國家排名是主要目標那我們就來看可是目前呢世界排名他們說沒有提升"},{"start":299.654,"end":309.722,"text":"企業球隊目前他們都是屬地經營可是目前在台灣屬地經營球隊經營只有一隊可是如果要精進所謂國家隊這些目標我們來看一下最大的困境是什麼"},{"start":312.188,"end":336.296,"text":"有一個6年足球計畫其實比起世界排名我們在基層或是在民間甚至在所有運動員還有包含兒少運動員還有積極參與投入自己家庭資源的家長身上我們看到另外一個更嚴重的問題我這邊務必要跟沈記長分享到底足球推動資源的投入是不是真的花在倒口上是我們要更關心的我們看到有一個足球6年計畫"},{"start":337.216,"end":357.083,"text":"甚至針對這個足球六年計畫民間的非常多團體他們還自己辦相關的檢討會還分享他們在各地第一線所聽到的一些困境表達他們不滿的聲音不知道這個檢討報告沈進長你們這邊有沒有看過或聽說過那為什麼要加入民間的聲音這個部分我們想要請您分享看看您的觀點是什麼"},{"start":357.543,"end":378.857,"text":"因為我們看到民間有出來有一些聲音出來是所以我們會對這一個現在正在了解好正在了解那所以你手上有相關的報告嗎關於這個民間的聲音檢討的聲音有那沒關係我們辦公室有我們後續提供給我們後續提供給你們分給你們參考但我要說一下為什麼這件事情這麼這麼的重要"},{"start":380.692,"end":398.387,"text":"體育署在這個計畫裡面他們說要提升參賽隊伍數量的KPI這個好像是一般行政機關很容易做他們也覺得好像比較好做的事情他們創造了一個好像國內足球隊蓬勃發展的這個狀態我暫且不要說它是假象怎麼說呢"},{"start":399.028,"end":403.892,"text":"我們看到另外一個狀況是為了衝這個球賽球隊參賽數量的KPI他們甚至呢有的是學校是用籃球隊田徑隊來報名參加足球比賽拿這個相關的補助以至於到後面相關的決算遠遠超過預算"},{"start":414.5,"end":433.797,"text":"可是回頭看一個計劃一個政府部門執行了6年的足球計劃他的相關目標、手段、成果都完全對不起來更不要說我剛剛已經跟您分享所有民間自主投入的基層的資源從家長到小孩到教練到很多的企業大家都努力基層自立自強"},{"start":434.477,"end":455.054,"text":"可是到最後我們看到這個國家足球六年發展計畫﹐卻有可能成為個別業務組的小金庫﹐他們如何看待手上這些經費﹐還有民間社區俱樂部正在蓬勃發展﹐但是社區俱樂部這件事情﹐卻沒有在相關體育組的眼睛的政策視野發展當中﹐這個部分不知道您有沒有知道相關的亂象"},{"start":456.822,"end":478.734,"text":"這個整個我們的審計啊以他的成效他跑偏了我們一定會給他意見好那如果也就是說可是如果不在你們的認知當中或是不在他們的政策規劃當中確實就很如同您說的不在你們的審計對象當中所以我們要再次強調目前這個六年足球計畫是執行到112年底我這邊要強烈的拜託審計部在112年度的審計報告當中要持續關注"},{"start":484.737,"end":488.783,"text":"相關足球六年發展計畫或其他體育署相關足球發展計畫?"},{"start":500.083,"end":515.719,"text":"另外我們提到我們看到這個審計部裡面還有另外一個我們辦公室一直以來都非常非常關心而且我們不是只有關心我們做了非常多的事情就是關於兒少自殺死亡率這件事情不知道沈記長你有沒有看過類似的新聞或是你知不知道目前在民間在學校這個現象"},{"start":517.442,"end":522.664,"text":"關於兒少自殺率逐年提升?你們的意見說國人自殺標準化死亡率尚未達成預期目標且兒少族群自殺問題漸趨嚴重你們還說自殺通報個案數逐年增加自殺關懷訪視員的案量負荷沉重"},{"start":543.832,"end":566.806,"text":"到目前為止自殺防治法沒有規定擬定全國自殺防治綱領報行政院核定實施這個是你們提出的問題對嗎對好這個先要謝謝審計部認真的工作但是我們要說相關的問題提出來都很棒因為對我們來說其實讓孩子們安心長大這個環境真的不是只是學校老師的責任也不是單一家庭的責任"},{"start":567.726,"end":589.958,"text":"過往大家都認為小孩健康的成長讓小孩好好的長大成為一個社會上有用的人力彷彿都是個別家庭的責任但是我們都知道現在社會環境的複雜已經不是一個單一家庭或者是在一個學校求學階段就能夠面對這麼多複雜的議題孩子們出了學校拿起手機他們對於數位接觸的熟悉還有我們大人對於青少年文化的陌生"},{"start":590.878,"end":611.865,"text":"這個部分我們辦公室甚至之前我們主動請衛福部來開會主動請教育部來開會甚至跨部會來開會那我們就想如同您剛剛說的面對少子化我們要做研議報告我們辦公室甚至主動找了國科會中研院可不可以啟動相關的研究報告可是我們得到的答案目前都是模擬兩可的"},{"start":612.785,"end":632.586,"text":"好像沒有人願意積極的承擔或是把這個事情當成是主要的業務範圍但是我必須說這個現象真的越來越嚴重所以這邊我特別提出來要拜託審計部在後續對於相關部會的兒少自殺死因回溯調查可不可以提出相關更具體的建議給予這些行政機關更積極的作為"},{"start":635.613,"end":661.393,"text":"這個部分我們會照委員的意思我們了解了整個前面的情況以後也會請教委員我們的意見是不是中和後續這邊我們辦公室也很樂意在跟審計部保持積極的討論因為如同我剛剛說的我們辦公室自己都已經發動了這麼多的會議討論就是希望可以從公部門的資源來協助解決這個問題因為兒少自殺不是只是孩子沒有了生命"},{"start":661.853,"end":679.423,"text":"對於每個家庭對於每個學校老師來說都是一個悲傷的故事所以我們希望這些悲傷的故事不要再發生所以跨部會的事情後續也要拜託審計部積極的緊盯相關的行政單位的行政效率可以嗎可以好謝謝委員我們會努力最後一個我們來看一下"},{"start":680.806,"end":705.571,"text":"沈記長你有去過這個球場嗎?沒有這個是高雄的男子足球場那這個是我的助理因為我生命中真的從來沒有看過這個足球比賽他第一場帶我去看的是台灣隊對於這個吉爾吉斯隊那我們當天的比賽其實表現成績不是太好可是我在現場我要說我看到球員盡心盡力在這個球場上揮灑可是這個球場有什麼樣的問題"},{"start":706.511,"end":725.665,"text":"這是當時前瞻計畫規劃要建6個相關的球場可是到了後來只蓋了這個球場不知道沈記長您知道這個事情嗎對,有所了解那為什麼只蓋6個只蓋了一個後續的經費都到哪裡去了你們相關報告裡面你有印象到底提到了些什麼嗎"},{"start":727.083,"end":739.928,"text":"這個部分因為有的進度落後有的規劃不足不淺所以就有檢討我們在整個如果足球對我們東方人來講是一個很好的一個運動我們會來努力"},{"start":742.549,"end":759.864,"text":"但是我們所知其實相關的縣市政府或者是相關的部會應該沒有把這個錢拿去規劃這個球場到底發生了什麼事情我覺得審計部這邊要主動的追蹤因為呢對於大家來說我剛剛已經在前面體育的題目裡我已經提到台灣的足球社區俱樂部蓬勃的發展"},{"start":760.764,"end":775.877,"text":"他們已經參考很多國外社區俱樂部的做法所以很多的家長很多的孩子自己投入時間自己投入資源他們不打算走學校體育班的系統他們花很多的時間自己練球可是光是要有一個合乎國際比賽規格的場地在台灣就有困難"},{"start":776.437,"end":798.453,"text":"更何況我們告訴我們自己我們要發展成一個體育大國一個足球大國這怎麼可能所以我剛剛想要再一次請省機長看這個球場而且說實話我們去到這個球場看到甚至這個上排喔他連燈光的部分金費都不夠我還問我助理說為什麼有那個燈光的架子可是卻沒有燈光在下面就只是先把它架好可是因為錢不夠都沒有辦法再往下做那"},{"start":799.213,"end":814.431,"text":"除了這個球場自己本身有問題之外後續其他或是之前規劃蓋球場也都沒有真的蓋出來所以這部分真的要拜託審計部積極的去糾正去盯緊到底發生了什麼事情或者是拿來本來說好要拿去蓋球場的錢到底到哪裡去了"},{"start":815.049,"end":830.611,"text":"好 這個球場我們會派人到整個屬地了解以後給委員提出也不是只有這個球場還有我剛說本來要蓋六座嘛其他的那幾個那個經費他的這怎麼使用我們也會整個了解"},{"start":830.891,"end":859.776,"text":"好 這個部分也就是說看起來在你們的報告裡面是沒有提到這個部分所以要拜託審計部積極的去緊盯這些事情所以簡單來說我今天提的關於少子化的部分還有兒少自殺需要你們跨部會還有體育署的相關足球發展業務還有還有剛剛我講的這個足球場前瞻計畫足球場也就是說所有這些預算它到最後都是落在服務台灣未來的主人翁就是所有的兒少身上當我們標榜我們要在意兒少的福利我們要在意兒少的權益"},{"start":860.296,"end":866.182,"text":"也要拜除行政機關他們有相關的規劃跟政策執行之外也要拜託審計部這邊要積極緊盯相關的計劃執行好謝謝委員我們會這個部分會照委員的意思來努力好謝謝以上謝謝沈記長謝謝主席謝謝"}]}}}}