{"id":150838,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150838","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fcec2336f0b0f73a3ada4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a6dbf84893d556ddb85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:32:16 - 10:47:43","影片長度":"00:15:27","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":927,"end_time":"2024-04-02T10:47:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T10:32:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":347,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時32分）主席，有請陳瑞敏審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：郭委員好。"],["郭委員國文：審計長好。審計長，根據你這個年度決算報告當中的一些審計內容以及審計意見，我個人對審計意見還有一些意見，你在分析上確實是有點到一些問題，但是意見上仍有不足之處，所以有一些問題想要就教於您。特別是在本席長期以來一直持續關心的社會住宅問題當中，您有特別提到，以社會住宅來說的話，我們蔡總統在任內的努力，到目前為止，已經有12萬7,924戶，但是即便12萬戶這邊全部完工的話，預計在整個住宅市場當中占有1.5%，那後續的部分，我們的總統當選人賴清德先生基本上也提出一個高達25萬戶的目標，如果累計完成25萬戶的話，預計大概可以超過3%。但是其他還有包租代管的部分，在這25萬戶的情況底下，累計目標應該可以達到6%，這個情況已經超過5%。為什麼我要強調這個部分呢？這是一個政策的目標，而這個政策目標明顯是呼應當年一些民間團體的訴求，希望在住宅正義的部分，與社會住宅相關的這個供給數能夠超過5%，這個5%的目標定了之後，後面就是執行的狀況，但是執行的部分如何，審計部就扮演一個非常重要的角色。","為什麼社會住宅現在會如此重要？大家之所以會如此關注有一個很重要的原因，就是一來感覺上速度沒有我們所想像、期待的那麼快，也就是到目前為止實際的完工數不到3萬，加上規劃中的據說有十二萬多，但是為什麼有這種急迫感，就是因為外在環境的一些變化。外在環境的變化就是我們現在的房租物價指數節節攀升，創下歷史新高，而且我們的房價所得比也是節節攀升，也是創下歷史新高，一個是105.37%，一個是到了9.61倍，再加上房貸負擔率也是攀升，超過4成。但是相對而言，我們社會住宅的中籤率大約在15%至20%之間。","中籤率偏低代表什麼？就是供不應求。在供不應求的情況底下，你們所做的報告內容當中有進行社會住宅的現金收支推估，明顯看得出來，內政部跟審計部有相當程度的落差，從100年到172年，你推估的時間算非常之長，而落差的幅度，你們認為是─2,966億，而內政部認為會有賸餘309億，兩個部會之間相差之多，超過3,000億以上。可是審計部在住都中心的規劃計畫當中，你們認為高估了租金的收入，可是問題是社會住宅所考慮到的除了營建成本跟興建成本之外，它本身有一定程度的政策目標存在，對不對？政策目標存在，如果一直只是考慮到所謂自償率的部分，你又點出一個部分，說要內政部研擬所謂合理的、可負擔的租金分級收費原則，看起來又是點到為止，那就是積極面的部分從社會住宅面向，其實資金是一個很大的方向。","在昨天的財政委員會當中，內政部在我們質詢時提出了所謂要再提供、創造一個1兆元以上的綠色債券的這個可能性，來解決它資金上的需求，我不曉得審計長的看法怎麼樣。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果社會住宅是社會上民眾所需要的，我們要想盡辦法來把它執行，我們對租金、收租的推估也只是提醒，要他稍微注意一下，至於怎麼說或者用什麼方法，因為要讓民眾能夠有社會住宅可住……"],["郭委員國文：總體來說是資金的部分、財務面向的問題，財務面向的部分，你們也點出所謂的營運資金不足，營運不資金不足，你就點到這邊而已，就沒有其他的建議。也就是說，其實就一個社會住宅興建的部分，資金當然是一個面向，資金的面向可以透過舉債、增加預算或者是其他的方式，在審計部的審計意見當中都付之闕如，沒有看見嘛！也就是說，第一個，是不是用舉債的方式？第二個，你是審計相關的部會，也知道不同的部會當中有不同的問題存在，依照目前來看，臺灣其實是不缺資金啦！民間的資金非常之多，甚至有些資金因為過剩而跑到海外去投資，特別是壽險基金的部分，是不是有效性的可以引導壽險基金走入社會住宅的市場當中？這個都是可能性啊！我就不曉得為什麼這個部分審計長都沒有注意到，也沒有提到這個審計意見。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對的，這個我們沒有……"],["郭委員國文：更何況是不是有創造一個新的可能性，也就是住都中心的這67億預算當中，已經是最高的情況底下，與其你把它當作預算，是不是把它當作利息的預算來做支應？也就是把它換算成3%，你就可以舉債到2,000多億，就可以迎刃化解它資金面的財務問題啊！審計長，你的看法怎麼樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分委員的意見我們尊重，但是我們沒有做這一部分，我們回去會做這方面的評估。"],["郭委員國文：對，本席就是希望你在審計意見當中更加充實。除了這個資金面向之外還有一個面向，就是時間成本。什麼是時間成本呢？就是實務當中你們要去深刻的理解，為什麼社會住宅會推出這麼慢的原因，有一個關鍵的因素就是土地取得。土地取得為什麼會造成這麼大的困難？一來就是剩餘土地適合的土地空間不多，二來還有使用分區的問題，一旦使用分區出現問題的時候，你還要走用地變更，又要一段時間，所以它的時間當然會拖長，因此站在審計單位，你應該要求其他單位比如說擁有土地、持有較多的單位在哪裡？一來是國有財產署，二來就是台糖，三來就是軍方，大概是這三個單位當中，有沒有可能釋出土地空間來配合國家總體的社會住宅政策？這就是你的職責所在啊！審計長，我說得對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們也發現國有地裡面還有107處閒置在那裡，所以委員這樣子講，我們會就這個部分加強提供審核意見。"],["郭委員國文：你都知道有107處閒置空間在那邊，也就是如同國有財產署現在管理的這些官舍、廳舍閒置不用的，有沒有可能予以活化，或者作為社會住宅的土地空間？有沒有可能？這個沒有去思考嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員這一個意見很好，我們會提供給……"],["郭委員國文：可以納入你的審計意見當中吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["郭委員國文：另外一個部分就是土地取得，興建社會住宅的部分也可以思考多元化的可能啊！什麼是多元化的可能？現在國有財產署500坪以上不能賣嘛，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["郭委員國文：那它可以用的方式是什麼？就是設定地上權嘛，對不對？那有沒有可能創造地上權屋的一種方式，也是提供社會住宅一種可能性啊！方法之一啊！對不對？或者在設定地上權的方式之外，以前地方政府也曾經有成功的BOT案例，而且速度非常之快，不到3年就已經興建完成，為什麼在你的審計報告當中都沒有看到這種政策建議？政策建議就是你審計部的責任嘛，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員的思考很多元，我們會照委員的意見評估以後，提出我們的審核意見。"],["郭委員國文：對。這些具體的內容，我一五一十告訴你，就資金的面向、財務的面向，以及土地的因素，還有時間成本的考慮當中具體擬出來，提出一個可以操作的建議方式，要求相關部會來完成這一個政策目標。我剛剛為什麼一開始就對你提政策目標？就是5%以上是呼應民間的一個期待嘛！如果就常態性的租屋者的需求，在臺灣是有超過80萬以上耶！常態性的需求當中為什麼需要？因為我們社會住宅不但是中籤率低，而且入住的時間還非常有限，如果不是弱勢者的話，頂多住3年，再加3年，也就是頂多6年而已。就國外的例子當中，是可以達到租者有其屋的一個政策目標欸！對不對？如果社會住宅要推到真正符合一個政策目標的話，還不在於供給量的5%或6%而已，而是長期可以供給這些相對弱勢，而無法達到居住正義的這一群租屋者的需求，才是真正的政策目標。我覺得，審計長你應該在內心當中要有一種這種政策目標啦！我這樣說，你的看法如何？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員剛剛說的對社會住宅的研究非常深入，我們會照委員的意見來評估。"],["郭委員國文：好，麻煩儘可能採用這些建議，多給這些相關部會一點壓力，然後進行日後持續性的審計，好不好？審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["郭委員國文：你還特別提到一個問題，也就是關於企業盈餘占GDP比例的部分，在110年度決算審計報告中，你針對行政院重要的審核意見表示受僱者占GDP比例創10年的新低嘛！對不對？10年的新低是43.03%，但是企業盈餘部分的占比卻逐漸攀升；也就是說，在相關數字當中，受僱者的報酬占GDP的比例是從45.77%，一直滑落到43.03%，然後另外一個部分，企業的盈餘占GDP比是31.82%，一直逐漸攀升到36.53%，這個告訴我們什麼？就是貧富差距的一個根本原因嘛！","最近有兩則新聞，其中一則是臺灣億萬富豪有11萬人，持有財產32萬兆，累積億萬財富的有69%都是55歲以上，當然這不包括本人啦！但是另外一個部分是30歲以下的勞工朋友23%沒有存款，是零存族，有46%的青年人認為負債已經造成他沉重的經濟壓力。當要解釋這一個圖表的時候，我衍生做一個主要國家的比較，受僱者報酬的GDP占比我們剛剛看到的是百分之四十三點幾，數字上尾數有一些差異，沒有什麼關係。但是日本是占多少？日本是占過一半，52.6%，美國也是52.2%，南韓52.2%，三個國家都是超過一半，都是52%以上，唯獨臺灣是43%。","好，你看盈餘占GDP的比例，我們剛好相反，反而我們最高，臺灣是34.4%，美國是24.6%，南韓是22%，日本是13.1%，對不對？你可以看到這種結構性的因素。以前我們也花了很多時間做一些努力，你做這些統計報告的過程中就可以看得出來，企業越來越賺錢，但是整個經濟成果並沒有達到經濟學所謂下滲的效果，沒有下滲的結果，貧富差距就越來越大。審計長，您難道只有做這些統計報告而已，沒有提出任何具體的政策建議，要求其他相關部會做一些改善嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員，針對所得不均、貧富不均，我們開始做專案調查，也努力持續多年的調查。"],["郭委員國文：專案調查之後有沒有什麼專案的建議、政策或要求？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們今年會提出來。"],["郭委員國文：今年什麼時候？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：今年我在決算報告……"],["郭委員國文：為什麼我問你的時候才說會提出來？這個現象已經持續很久了。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：審核報告本來就有列入專案調查。"],["郭委員國文：你再重複一次，今年幾月的時候會提出來？這跟低薪……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我固定7月底以前要送審核報告。"],["郭委員國文：7月底是全部，地方也都會出來，對不對？你7月底會有具體的、可操作的……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：會。"],["郭委員國文：要有效的、可以改善的，我會好好看。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：最後一分鐘的時間我再跟你講，其實我們不是完全沒有努力，蔡政府過去8年來都有調整基本工資，而調整基本工資在整個築底推高的層面，相對是讓比較屬於低薪階級的薪資結構有部分改善，但是最關鍵是中階，也就是說，勞動所得在中階的部分影響相對比較少。過往我們也提過所謂的中小企業加薪抵稅，但當初的法令居然用很高的失業率作為標準，根本沒有辦法達成，徒有條文。而且我們也針對整個企業的盈餘進行課稅，也做過這樣的努力，但是實際上也是好到股東，沒有好到勞工，我們在制度上做了這些努力卻沒有達到實質的效果。","請審計長好好思考一下，這個報告好好寫。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，我們會很認真的查。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員國文詢問，也謝謝陳審計長備詢。","報告院會，現在我們休息10分鐘。謝謝。","休息（10時47分）","繼續開會（10時58分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政\n府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告（中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30\n日）」審核經過並備諮詢－詢答完畢－","agenda_id":"1131801_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"150838","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150838","tool":"pyannote","id":"150838-pyannote"},"job_id":"k2WDoJ4G5RPoD7mr","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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00:00:53,489\n也就是說你在分析上的問題確實是有些點到但是意見上仍有不足之處有些問題想要就教於您那特別是本席一直持續長期來一直關心的這個社會住宅問題當中您有特別提到那以社會住宅來說的話我們蔡總統的任內的一個努力到目前為止已經有127,924戶\n\n3\n00:00:57,503 --> 00:01:24,340\n但是如果即便12萬戶這邊全部完工的話他預計是在整個住宅市場當中佔有1.5%那後續的部分我們的總統當選賴清德先生他也基本上提出一個叫高達25萬戶那如果累計25萬戶完成的話大概可以預計超過3%但是還有其他的部分還有包租代管的部分的25萬戶的情況底下累計目標應該可以達到6%\n\n4\n00:01:26,059 --> 00:01:40,129\n這個情況已經超過5%為什麼要強調這個部分呢這是一個政策的目標而這個政策目標明顯是呼籲當年一些民間團體的訴求希望在住宅正義的部分有社會住宅相關的供給數能夠超過5%\n\n5\n00:01:44,127 --> 00:01:57,610\n但是這5%的這個目標即便定了之後後面是執行的狀況但是執行的部分如何?當然省紀部就扮演一個非常重要的一個角色那我舉一個為什麼社會住宅現在\n\n6\n00:01:58,618 --> 00:02:22,758\n之所以會如此的一個重要性大家之所以會如此關注的一個很重要的一個原因是一來感覺上呢速度沒有我們想像中的期待的那麼快也就是目前為止實際的完工數不到3萬但是加上規劃中當然雖有12萬多但是為什麼這種急迫感是一種外在環境的一些變化外在環境的變化也就是說我們現在的房租的物價指數節節攀升創下歷史新高\n\n7\n00:02:26,221 --> 00:02:55,056\n而且我們房價的所得比也是節節攀升也是創價利率有時間高一個是105.37一個是到了9.61倍再加上房貸的負擔率也是攀升超過4成但是相對而言我們社會住宅的這個中遷率大約是在15%在20%之間那中遷率的這個偏低也就代表什麼就供不應求供不應求\n\n8\n00:02:55,902 --> 00:03:17,378\n那這種供不應求的情況底下你們所做的報告內容當中有進行社會住宅現金收支的推估明顯看得出來內政部跟審計部有相當程度的落差從100年到172年推估的時間算非常之長落差的幅度你們認為是-2966億\n\n9\n00:03:22,011 --> 00:03:48,171\n而內政部認為會有剩餘309億兩個部會之間相差之多超過3000億以上但是可是呢省基部在租租東興的規劃計畫當中呢你們認為高估的這個租金的收入可是問題是社會住宅他考慮到的除了營建成本跟這一個新建成本之外他本身有一定的程度的政策目標的存在對不對\n\n10\n00:03:49,031 --> 00:04:15,992\n那政策目標不在如果一直只是考慮到所謂自償率的部分的話你又點出一個部分說要內政部沿你所謂的合理的可負擔的租金的分級收費原則看起來齁又是點到為止那就是說積極面的部分呢從社會主題面向其實資金是一個很大的一個方向在昨天的財政委員會當中呢那個內政部在我們的質詢當中他提出了\n\n11\n00:04:16,525 --> 00:04:28,294\n所謂要創再提供創造一個一兆元以上的綠色債券的這個可能性來解決他的這個資金上的需求我不知道沈記長你的看法怎麼樣\n\n12\n00:04:29,922 --> 00:04:53,842\n如果社會住宅是社會上民眾所需要的話我們要想盡辦法來執行那我們的租金收租的這個顧我們也只是提醒要他稍微注意一下那至於怎麼收或者用什麼方法因為要讓民眾能夠有社會住宅口住總體來說資金的部分財務面向的問題\n\n13\n00:04:58,410 --> 00:05:24,936\n那財務面向的部分你們也點出所謂的營運資金不足嘛那營運資金不足你就點到這邊而已就沒有其他的建議也就是說其實就一個社會住宅這個興建的部分資金當然是一個面向資金的面向它可以透過舉債增加預算或者其他的方式在你審計部的這個審計意見當中都付之確如啊沒有看見嘛就是說第一個是不是舉債的方式\n\n14\n00:05:25,748 --> 00:05:51,599\n第二個你也是審計相關的部會你也知道不同的部會當中有不同的問題的存在依照目前為止台灣其實是不缺資金民間的資金非常之多甚至有些資金會過剩而跑到海外軍事投資特別是受險基金的部分是否有效性的可以引導受險基金走入這個社會住宅的市場當中這個都是可能性\n\n15\n00:05:52,859 --> 00:06:17,789\n我就不曉得為什麼審計長你這個部分都沒有去注意到也沒有提到這個審計意見更何況是不是有創造一個新的可能性也就是諸多東西的這67億預算當中已經是最高的情況底下與其你把它當作預算是不是把它當作利息的預算來做支應也就是說把它換算成3%你就可以舉債到2000多億就可以迎刃化解它的資金面的財務問題啊\n\n16\n00:06:19,688 --> 00:06:40,366\n市長你的看法怎麼樣這個部分委員的意見我們尊重但是我們沒有做這一部分我們會回去做這方面的評估對本席就是希望你在審計意見當中更加充實除了這個資金的面向之外還有一個面向還有一個面向是時間成本\n\n17\n00:06:41,345 --> 00:06:57,804\n什麼時間成本呢就實務當中你們要去深刻的去理解為什麼社會住宅會推出這麼慢的原因有一個關鍵的因素就是土地取得土地取得為什麼會造成這麼大的困難他一來就是呢剩餘土地呢\n\n18\n00:06:58,807 --> 00:07:19,152\n適合的土地空間不多二來還有使用分區的問題一旦使用分區出現問題的時候你還要走用地變更又要一段時間所以他時間當然會拖長啊所以站在審計單位你應該要求其他單位休講擁有土地持有單位較多的地方的單位在哪裡依賴嘛國有財產署嘛\n\n19\n00:07:20,987 --> 00:07:36,219\n二來嘛就是台台嘛三來嘛就是軍方嘛大概是這三個單位當中有沒有可能釋出土地空間來配合國家的總體的一個社會住宅的政策這就是你的職責所待啊沈議長因為我們發現啊他有國有地裡面還有107處啊閒住在那裡\n\n20\n00:07:40,983 --> 00:08:02,111\n你都知道有107處的閒置空間在那邊也就是如同國土財產署他現在管理的這些觀設、聽設、閒置不用的有沒有可能作為活化或者來作為社會住宅的一個土地空間有沒有可能這個沒有去思考嗎\n\n21\n00:08:04,502 --> 00:08:27,439\n委員這個意見很好,我們會來提供可以納入你的審計意見當中吧好另外一個部分呢,也就是說呢,你的土地取得,你興建社會住宅的部分你也可以思考多元化的可能啊什麼是多元化的可能?現在國有財產署500坪以上不能賣嘛,對不對?對不對?對那它可以用的方式是什麼?\n\n22\n00:08:28,779 --> 00:08:53,559\n設定地上全嗎?那有沒有可能創造地上全屋的一種方式也是提供社會住宅一種可能性啊?方法之一啊?對不對?或者還有包括是什麼?就是說設定這種地上全的方式之外以前地方政府也曾經有成功的BOT的案例而且速度非常之快不到三年就已經興建完成\n\n23\n00:08:55,322 --> 00:09:22,495\n那為什麼在你的審計審計報告當中都沒有看到這種政策建議政策建議就是你審計部的責任嘛對不對委員都訴考很多人我們會照委員的來評估以後提出我們的審核意見對這些具體的內容我一五一十告訴你就資金的面向財務的面向以及呢這個土地的因素還有時間的成本的考慮當中來具體\n\n24\n00:09:24,434 --> 00:09:52,197\n你出來提出一個可以操作的一個建議方式來要求相關部會來完成這一個政策目標我剛剛為什麼一開始就給你提政策目標就是5%以上是呼應民間的一個期待如果就常態性的租屋者的需求在台灣是有超過80萬以上常態性的需求當中為什麼需要因為我們社會住宅不但是重簽率低\n\n25\n00:09:53,137 --> 00:10:02,126\n而且呢你入住的時間還非常有限你如果不是弱勢者的話你挺多住3年再加3年也就挺多6年而已\n\n26\n00:10:03,410 --> 00:10:31,480\n就國外的例子當中呢是可以達到租者有其屋的一個政策目標欸對不對如果你社會住宅要推到一個真正一個符合政策目標的話還不在於說供給量的5%或6%而已而是長期的可以供給這些相對弱勢而無法達到居住正義的這一群租屋者的需求才是真正的政策目標我覺得沈議長你應該在內心當中要有一種政策目標啦委員的\n\n27\n00:10:33,481 --> 00:10:54,105\n剛剛的研究對社會住宅的研究非常深入我們會照委員的意見來評估麻煩盡可能採用這些建議多給這些相關部會一點壓力然後進行日後持續性的一個成績好不好後面的部分你特別還有提到一個問題也就是關於這個企業這個\n\n28\n00:10:58,042 --> 00:11:09,555\n銀魚的部分占的GDP比例你在110年度決算的審計報告中正對行政院重要的審核意見當中對受僱者的占有GDP的比例當中創10年的新低嗎?對不對?\n\n29\n00:11:11,109 --> 00:11:20,033\n此內心地當中我們所佔的比例是36.53%但是43.03%但是企業盈餘的佔比卻逐漸攀升也就是說你看到的這些相關的數字當中受僱者的報酬佔GDP的比例是從45.77一直滑落到43.03\n\n30\n00:11:35,563 --> 00:11:41,891\n然後另外一個部分呢企業的盈餘的占GDP比是31.82一直逐漸攀升到36.53這個告訴我們什麼\n\n31\n00:11:45,612 --> 00:12:11,701\n就是貧富差距的根本原因最近兩則新聞你看台灣億萬富豪的部分佔11萬人持有財產32萬兆累積的億萬財富有69%都是55歲的當然這55歲不包括本人但是另外一個部分是30歲以下的勞工朋友23%沒有存款是零存儲\n\n32\n00:12:13,257 --> 00:12:39,768\n有46%的青年人認為負債已經造成了沉重的經濟壓力?當你解釋這一個圖表的時候那我就把你的圖表做一個衍生我做一個國家主要國家的比較你看喔收估者人數的這個報酬率的這個GDP比我們剛剛看到是43點起數字上尾數有些差異沒有什麼關係但是日本是占多少\n\n33\n00:12:40,868 --> 00:13:01,583\n日本是占過一半52.6%美國也是52.2%南韓52.2%也就三個國家都是超過一半了都是52%以上唯獨台灣啊是在43%好你去看盈餘喔盈餘GDP我們剛好相反反正我是最高我們最高的部分呢我們台灣是34.4%美國是24.6%南韓是22%日本呢是13.1%\n\n34\n00:13:08,738 --> 00:13:29,830\n那你看到這種結構性的因素當中以前我們也花了很多時間在做一些努力啊你做這些統計報告當中你就可以看得出來企業越來越賺錢嘛但是整個經濟的成果並沒有達到所謂經濟學的下盛的效果嘛沒有下盛的效果當中貧富差距就越來越大嘛\n\n35\n00:13:30,851 --> 00:13:46,987\n局長,你難道只有做這些統計報告而已,你沒有任何一個具體的一個政策建議,要求其他相關部會來做一些改善嗎?謝謝委員,這個部分齁,所得不驚,貧富不驚,這個我們在開始做專案調查,也在努力除夕要多年的調查\n\n36\n00:13:48,087 --> 00:14:11,163\n專案調查之外有沒有什麼專案的建議或政策或要求今年會提出來今年什麼時候今年我再結算報告為什麼我問你的時候你才會提出來這個現在已經持續很久了本來就有內陸的這個專案調查了你今年你說你再重複一次今年幾月的時候會提出來因為我我固定7月底以前要送審核報告對7月底是全部啦地方也都會出來嘛對不對你的7月底會有具體的喔\n\n37\n00:14:12,003 --> 00:14:41,076\n可操作的喔有效的喔可以改善的喔我會好好看喔那我再跟你講最後一分鐘的時間齁其實我們不是完全沒有努力蔡政府過去八年來都有進行基本工資的調整但是基本工資的調整它的整個主體推高的這一個層面相對是比較屬於低薪階級的部分的這一個薪資結構有所部分的改善\n\n38\n00:14:42,130 --> 00:15:10,672\n但是最關鍵的部分是在中階的部分也就是說所得勞動所得在中階的部分幾乎影響就相對比較少過往我們也提過所謂的中小企業加薪這個抵稅但實質上當初的法令居然用一個很高的失業率做一個標準根本沒有辦法達成圖有條文而且我們也將近把整個企業營運進行課稅也做過這樣的努力但是實際上\n\n39\n00:15:12,233 --> 00:15:15,037\n也是好到股東沒有好到勞工啊?\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7067\t10829\t主席有請陳任允我們審計長再請陳審計長備選各位好審計長好審計長根據你這一個年度的這個決算報告當中的一些審計內容以及審計意見那個人對審計意見當中還有一些意見\n30663\t53489\t也就是說你在分析上的問題確實是有些點到但是意見上仍有不足之處有些問題想要就教於您那特別是本席一直持續長期來一直關心的這個社會住宅問題當中您有特別提到那以社會住宅來說的話我們蔡總統的任內的一個努力到目前為止已經有127,924戶\n57503\t84340\t但是如果即便12萬戶這邊全部完工的話他預計是在整個住宅市場當中佔有1.5%那後續的部分我們的總統當選賴清德先生他也基本上提出一個叫高達25萬戶那如果累計25萬戶完成的話大概可以預計超過3%但是還有其他的部分還有包租代管的部分的25萬戶的情況底下累計目標應該可以達到6%\n86059\t100129\t這個情況已經超過5%為什麼要強調這個部分呢這是一個政策的目標而這個政策目標明顯是呼籲當年一些民間團體的訴求希望在住宅正義的部分有社會住宅相關的供給數能夠超過5%\n104127\t117610\t但是這5%的這個目標即便定了之後後面是執行的狀況但是執行的部分如何?當然省紀部就扮演一個非常重要的一個角色那我舉一個為什麼社會住宅現在\n118618\t142758\t之所以會如此的一個重要性大家之所以會如此關注的一個很重要的一個原因是一來感覺上呢速度沒有我們想像中的期待的那麼快也就是目前為止實際的完工數不到3萬但是加上規劃中當然雖有12萬多但是為什麼這種急迫感是一種外在環境的一些變化外在環境的變化也就是說我們現在的房租的物價指數節節攀升創下歷史新高\n146221\t175056\t而且我們房價的所得比也是節節攀升也是創價利率有時間高一個是105.37一個是到了9.61倍再加上房貸的負擔率也是攀升超過4成但是相對而言我們社會住宅的這個中遷率大約是在15%在20%之間那中遷率的這個偏低也就代表什麼就供不應求供不應求\n175902\t197378\t那這種供不應求的情況底下你們所做的報告內容當中有進行社會住宅現金收支的推估明顯看得出來內政部跟審計部有相當程度的落差從100年到172年推估的時間算非常之長落差的幅度你們認為是-2966億\n202011\t228171\t而內政部認為會有剩餘309億兩個部會之間相差之多超過3000億以上但是可是呢省基部在租租東興的規劃計畫當中呢你們認為高估的這個租金的收入可是問題是社會住宅他考慮到的除了營建成本跟這一個新建成本之外他本身有一定的程度的政策目標的存在對不對\n229031\t255992\t那政策目標不在如果一直只是考慮到所謂自償率的部分的話你又點出一個部分說要內政部沿你所謂的合理的可負擔的租金的分級收費原則看起來齁又是點到為止那就是說積極面的部分呢從社會主題面向其實資金是一個很大的一個方向在昨天的財政委員會當中呢那個內政部在我們的質詢當中他提出了\n256525\t268294\t所謂要創再提供創造一個一兆元以上的綠色債券的這個可能性來解決他的這個資金上的需求我不知道沈記長你的看法怎麼樣\n269922\t293842\t如果社會住宅是社會上民眾所需要的話我們要想盡辦法來執行那我們的租金收租的這個顧我們也只是提醒要他稍微注意一下那至於怎麼收或者用什麼方法因為要讓民眾能夠有社會住宅口住總體來說資金的部分財務面向的問題\n298410\t324936\t那財務面向的部分你們也點出所謂的營運資金不足嘛那營運資金不足你就點到這邊而已就沒有其他的建議也就是說其實就一個社會住宅這個興建的部分資金當然是一個面向資金的面向它可以透過舉債增加預算或者其他的方式在你審計部的這個審計意見當中都付之確如啊沒有看見嘛就是說第一個是不是舉債的方式\n325748\t351599\t第二個你也是審計相關的部會你也知道不同的部會當中有不同的問題的存在依照目前為止台灣其實是不缺資金民間的資金非常之多甚至有些資金會過剩而跑到海外軍事投資特別是受險基金的部分是否有效性的可以引導受險基金走入這個社會住宅的市場當中這個都是可能性\n352859\t377789\t我就不曉得為什麼審計長你這個部分都沒有去注意到也沒有提到這個審計意見更何況是不是有創造一個新的可能性也就是諸多東西的這67億預算當中已經是最高的情況底下與其你把它當作預算是不是把它當作利息的預算來做支應也就是說把它換算成3%你就可以舉債到2000多億就可以迎刃化解它的資金面的財務問題啊\n379688\t400366\t市長你的看法怎麼樣這個部分委員的意見我們尊重但是我們沒有做這一部分我們會回去做這方面的評估對本席就是希望你在審計意見當中更加充實除了這個資金的面向之外還有一個面向還有一個面向是時間成本\n401345\t417804\t什麼時間成本呢就實務當中你們要去深刻的去理解為什麼社會住宅會推出這麼慢的原因有一個關鍵的因素就是土地取得土地取得為什麼會造成這麼大的困難他一來就是呢剩餘土地呢\n418807\t439152\t適合的土地空間不多二來還有使用分區的問題一旦使用分區出現問題的時候你還要走用地變更又要一段時間所以他時間當然會拖長啊所以站在審計單位你應該要求其他單位休講擁有土地持有單位較多的地方的單位在哪裡依賴嘛國有財產署嘛\n440987\t456219\t二來嘛就是台台嘛三來嘛就是軍方嘛大概是這三個單位當中有沒有可能釋出土地空間來配合國家的總體的一個社會住宅的政策這就是你的職責所待啊 沈議長因為我們發現啊他有國有地裡面還有107處啊 閒住在那裡\n460983\t482111\t你都知道有107處的閒置空間在那邊也就是如同國土財產署他現在管理的這些觀設、聽設、閒置不用的有沒有可能作為活化或者來作為社會住宅的一個土地空間有沒有可能這個沒有去思考嗎\n484502\t507439\t委員這個意見很好,我們會來提供可以納入你的審計意見當中吧好另外一個部分呢,也就是說呢,你的土地取得,你興建社會住宅的部分你也可以思考多元化的可能啊什麼是多元化的可能?現在國有財產署500坪以上不能賣嘛,對不對?對不對?對那它可以用的方式是什麼?\n508779\t533559\t設定地上全嗎?那有沒有可能創造地上全屋的一種方式也是提供社會住宅一種可能性啊?方法之一啊?對不對?或者還有包括是什麼?就是說設定這種地上全的方式之外以前地方政府也曾經有成功的BOT的案例而且速度非常之快不到三年就已經興建完成\n535322\t562495\t那為什麼在你的審計審計報告當中都沒有看到這種政策建議政策建議就是你審計部的責任嘛對不對委員都訴考很多人我們會照委員的來評估以後提出我們的審核意見對這些具體的內容我一五一十告訴你就資金的面向財務的面向以及呢這個土地的因素還有時間的成本的考慮當中來具體\n564434\t592197\t你出來提出一個可以操作的一個建議方式來要求相關部會來完成這一個政策目標我剛剛為什麼一開始就給你提政策目標就是5%以上是呼應民間的一個期待如果就常態性的租屋者的需求在台灣是有超過80萬以上常態性的需求當中為什麼需要因為我們社會住宅不但是重簽率低\n593137\t602126\t而且呢你入住的時間還非常有限你如果不是弱勢者的話你挺多住3年再加3年也就挺多6年而已\n603410\t631480\t就國外的例子當中呢是可以達到租者有其屋的一個政策目標欸對不對如果你社會住宅要推到一個真正一個符合政策目標的話還不在於說供給量的5%或6%而已而是長期的可以供給這些相對弱勢而無法達到居住正義的這一群租屋者的需求才是真正的政策目標我覺得沈議長你應該在內心當中要有一種政策目標啦委員的\n633481\t654105\t剛剛的研究對社會住宅的研究非常深入我們會照委員的意見來評估麻煩盡可能採用這些建議多給這些相關部會一點壓力然後進行日後持續性的一個成績好不好後面的部分你特別還有提到一個問題也就是關於這個企業這個\n658042\t669555\t銀魚的部分占的GDP比例你在110年度決算的審計報告中正對行政院重要的審核意見當中對受僱者的占有GDP的比例當中創10年的新低嗎?對不對?\n671109\t680033\t此內心地當中我們所佔的比例是36.53%但是43.03%但是企業盈餘的佔比卻逐漸攀升也就是說你看到的這些相關的數字當中受僱者的報酬佔GDP的比例是從45.77一直滑落到43.03\n695563\t701891\t然後另外一個部分呢企業的盈餘的占GDP比是31.82一直逐漸攀升到36.53這個告訴我們什麼\n705612\t731701\t就是貧富差距的根本原因最近兩則新聞你看台灣億萬富豪的部分佔11萬人持有財產32萬兆累積的億萬財富有69%都是55歲的當然這55歲不包括本人但是另外一個部分是30歲以下的勞工朋友23%沒有存款是零存儲\n733257\t759768\t有46%的青年人認為負債已經造成了沉重的經濟壓力?當你解釋這一個圖表的時候那我就把你的圖表做一個衍生我做一個國家主要國家的比較你看喔收估者人數的這個報酬率的這個GDP比我們剛剛看到是43點起數字上尾數有些差異沒有什麼關係但是日本是占多少\n760868\t781583\t日本是占過一半52.6%美國也是52.2%南韓52.2%也就三個國家都是超過一半了都是52%以上唯獨台灣啊是在43%好你去看盈餘喔盈餘GDP我們剛好相反反正我是最高我們最高的部分呢我們台灣是34.4%美國是24.6%南韓是22%日本呢是13.1%\n788738\t809830\t那你看到這種結構性的因素當中以前我們也花了很多時間在做一些努力啊你做這些統計報告當中你就可以看得出來企業越來越賺錢嘛但是整個經濟的成果並沒有達到所謂經濟學的下盛的效果嘛沒有下盛的效果當中貧富差距就越來越大嘛\n810851\t826987\t局長,你難道只有做這些統計報告而已,你沒有任何一個具體的一個政策建議,要求其他相關部會來做一些改善嗎?謝謝委員,這個部分齁,所得不驚,貧富不驚,這個我們在開始做專案調查,也在努力除夕要多年的調查\n828087\t851163\t專案調查之外有沒有什麼專案的建議或政策或要求今年會提出來今年什麼時候今年我再結算報告為什麼我問你的時候你才會提出來這個現在已經持續很久了本來就有內陸的這個專案調查了你今年你說你再重複一次今年幾月的時候會提出來因為我我固定7月底以前要送審核報告對7月底是全部啦地方也都會出來嘛對不對你的7月底會有具體的喔\n852003\t881076\t可操作的喔有效的喔可以改善的喔我會好好看喔那我再跟你講最後一分鐘的時間齁其實我們不是完全沒有努力蔡政府過去八年來都有進行基本工資的調整但是基本工資的調整它的整個主體推高的這一個層面相對是比較屬於低薪階級的部分的這一個薪資結構有所部分的改善\n882130\t910672\t但是最關鍵的部分是在中階的部分也就是說所得勞動所得在中階的部分幾乎影響就相對比較少過往我們也提過所謂的中小企業加薪這個抵稅但實質上當初的法令居然用一個很高的失業率做一個標準根本沒有辦法達成圖有條文而且我們也將近把整個企業營運進行課稅也做過這樣的努力但是實際上\n912233\t915037\t也是好到股東沒有好到勞工啊?\n","txt":"主席有請陳任允我們審計長再請陳審計長備選各位好審計長好審計長根據你這一個年度的這個決算報告當中的一些審計內容以及審計意見那個人對審計意見當中還有一些意見\n也就是說你在分析上的問題確實是有些點到但是意見上仍有不足之處有些問題想要就教於您那特別是本席一直持續長期來一直關心的這個社會住宅問題當中您有特別提到那以社會住宅來說的話我們蔡總統的任內的一個努力到目前為止已經有127,924戶\n但是如果即便12萬戶這邊全部完工的話他預計是在整個住宅市場當中佔有1.5%那後續的部分我們的總統當選賴清德先生他也基本上提出一個叫高達25萬戶那如果累計25萬戶完成的話大概可以預計超過3%但是還有其他的部分還有包租代管的部分的25萬戶的情況底下累計目標應該可以達到6%\n這個情況已經超過5%為什麼要強調這個部分呢這是一個政策的目標而這個政策目標明顯是呼籲當年一些民間團體的訴求希望在住宅正義的部分有社會住宅相關的供給數能夠超過5%\n但是這5%的這個目標即便定了之後後面是執行的狀況但是執行的部分如何?當然省紀部就扮演一個非常重要的一個角色那我舉一個為什麼社會住宅現在\n之所以會如此的一個重要性大家之所以會如此關注的一個很重要的一個原因是一來感覺上呢速度沒有我們想像中的期待的那麼快也就是目前為止實際的完工數不到3萬但是加上規劃中當然雖有12萬多但是為什麼這種急迫感是一種外在環境的一些變化外在環境的變化也就是說我們現在的房租的物價指數節節攀升創下歷史新高\n而且我們房價的所得比也是節節攀升也是創價利率有時間高一個是105.37一個是到了9.61倍再加上房貸的負擔率也是攀升超過4成但是相對而言我們社會住宅的這個中遷率大約是在15%在20%之間那中遷率的這個偏低也就代表什麼就供不應求供不應求\n那這種供不應求的情況底下你們所做的報告內容當中有進行社會住宅現金收支的推估明顯看得出來內政部跟審計部有相當程度的落差從100年到172年推估的時間算非常之長落差的幅度你們認為是-2966億\n而內政部認為會有剩餘309億兩個部會之間相差之多超過3000億以上但是可是呢省基部在租租東興的規劃計畫當中呢你們認為高估的這個租金的收入可是問題是社會住宅他考慮到的除了營建成本跟這一個新建成本之外他本身有一定的程度的政策目標的存在對不對\n那政策目標不在如果一直只是考慮到所謂自償率的部分的話你又點出一個部分說要內政部沿你所謂的合理的可負擔的租金的分級收費原則看起來齁又是點到為止那就是說積極面的部分呢從社會主題面向其實資金是一個很大的一個方向在昨天的財政委員會當中呢那個內政部在我們的質詢當中他提出了\n所謂要創再提供創造一個一兆元以上的綠色債券的這個可能性來解決他的這個資金上的需求我不知道沈記長你的看法怎麼樣\n如果社會住宅是社會上民眾所需要的話我們要想盡辦法來執行那我們的租金收租的這個顧我們也只是提醒要他稍微注意一下那至於怎麼收或者用什麼方法因為要讓民眾能夠有社會住宅口住總體來說資金的部分財務面向的問題\n那財務面向的部分你們也點出所謂的營運資金不足嘛那營運資金不足你就點到這邊而已就沒有其他的建議也就是說其實就一個社會住宅這個興建的部分資金當然是一個面向資金的面向它可以透過舉債增加預算或者其他的方式在你審計部的這個審計意見當中都付之確如啊沒有看見嘛就是說第一個是不是舉債的方式\n第二個你也是審計相關的部會你也知道不同的部會當中有不同的問題的存在依照目前為止台灣其實是不缺資金民間的資金非常之多甚至有些資金會過剩而跑到海外軍事投資特別是受險基金的部分是否有效性的可以引導受險基金走入這個社會住宅的市場當中這個都是可能性\n我就不曉得為什麼審計長你這個部分都沒有去注意到也沒有提到這個審計意見更何況是不是有創造一個新的可能性也就是諸多東西的這67億預算當中已經是最高的情況底下與其你把它當作預算是不是把它當作利息的預算來做支應也就是說把它換算成3%你就可以舉債到2000多億就可以迎刃化解它的資金面的財務問題啊\n市長你的看法怎麼樣這個部分委員的意見我們尊重但是我們沒有做這一部分我們會回去做這方面的評估對本席就是希望你在審計意見當中更加充實除了這個資金的面向之外還有一個面向還有一個面向是時間成本\n什麼時間成本呢就實務當中你們要去深刻的去理解為什麼社會住宅會推出這麼慢的原因有一個關鍵的因素就是土地取得土地取得為什麼會造成這麼大的困難他一來就是呢剩餘土地呢\n適合的土地空間不多二來還有使用分區的問題一旦使用分區出現問題的時候你還要走用地變更又要一段時間所以他時間當然會拖長啊所以站在審計單位你應該要求其他單位休講擁有土地持有單位較多的地方的單位在哪裡依賴嘛國有財產署嘛\n二來嘛就是台台嘛三來嘛就是軍方嘛大概是這三個單位當中有沒有可能釋出土地空間來配合國家的總體的一個社會住宅的政策這就是你的職責所待啊 沈議長因為我們發現啊他有國有地裡面還有107處啊 閒住在那裡\n你都知道有107處的閒置空間在那邊也就是如同國土財產署他現在管理的這些觀設、聽設、閒置不用的有沒有可能作為活化或者來作為社會住宅的一個土地空間有沒有可能這個沒有去思考嗎\n委員這個意見很好,我們會來提供可以納入你的審計意見當中吧好另外一個部分呢,也就是說呢,你的土地取得,你興建社會住宅的部分你也可以思考多元化的可能啊什麼是多元化的可能?現在國有財產署500坪以上不能賣嘛,對不對?對不對?對那它可以用的方式是什麼?\n設定地上全嗎?那有沒有可能創造地上全屋的一種方式也是提供社會住宅一種可能性啊?方法之一啊?對不對?或者還有包括是什麼?就是說設定這種地上全的方式之外以前地方政府也曾經有成功的BOT的案例而且速度非常之快不到三年就已經興建完成\n那為什麼在你的審計審計報告當中都沒有看到這種政策建議政策建議就是你審計部的責任嘛對不對委員都訴考很多人我們會照委員的來評估以後提出我們的審核意見對這些具體的內容我一五一十告訴你就資金的面向財務的面向以及呢這個土地的因素還有時間的成本的考慮當中來具體\n你出來提出一個可以操作的一個建議方式來要求相關部會來完成這一個政策目標我剛剛為什麼一開始就給你提政策目標就是5%以上是呼應民間的一個期待如果就常態性的租屋者的需求在台灣是有超過80萬以上常態性的需求當中為什麼需要因為我們社會住宅不但是重簽率低\n而且呢你入住的時間還非常有限你如果不是弱勢者的話你挺多住3年再加3年也就挺多6年而已\n就國外的例子當中呢是可以達到租者有其屋的一個政策目標欸對不對如果你社會住宅要推到一個真正一個符合政策目標的話還不在於說供給量的5%或6%而已而是長期的可以供給這些相對弱勢而無法達到居住正義的這一群租屋者的需求才是真正的政策目標我覺得沈議長你應該在內心當中要有一種政策目標啦委員的\n剛剛的研究對社會住宅的研究非常深入我們會照委員的意見來評估麻煩盡可能採用這些建議多給這些相關部會一點壓力然後進行日後持續性的一個成績好不好後面的部分你特別還有提到一個問題也就是關於這個企業這個\n銀魚的部分占的GDP比例你在110年度決算的審計報告中正對行政院重要的審核意見當中對受僱者的占有GDP的比例當中創10年的新低嗎?對不對?\n此內心地當中我們所佔的比例是36.53%但是43.03%但是企業盈餘的佔比卻逐漸攀升也就是說你看到的這些相關的數字當中受僱者的報酬佔GDP的比例是從45.77一直滑落到43.03\n然後另外一個部分呢企業的盈餘的占GDP比是31.82一直逐漸攀升到36.53這個告訴我們什麼\n就是貧富差距的根本原因最近兩則新聞你看台灣億萬富豪的部分佔11萬人持有財產32萬兆累積的億萬財富有69%都是55歲的當然這55歲不包括本人但是另外一個部分是30歲以下的勞工朋友23%沒有存款是零存儲\n有46%的青年人認為負債已經造成了沉重的經濟壓力?當你解釋這一個圖表的時候那我就把你的圖表做一個衍生我做一個國家主要國家的比較你看喔收估者人數的這個報酬率的這個GDP比我們剛剛看到是43點起數字上尾數有些差異沒有什麼關係但是日本是占多少\n日本是占過一半52.6%美國也是52.2%南韓52.2%也就三個國家都是超過一半了都是52%以上唯獨台灣啊是在43%好你去看盈餘喔盈餘GDP我們剛好相反反正我是最高我們最高的部分呢我們台灣是34.4%美國是24.6%南韓是22%日本呢是13.1%\n那你看到這種結構性的因素當中以前我們也花了很多時間在做一些努力啊你做這些統計報告當中你就可以看得出來企業越來越賺錢嘛但是整個經濟的成果並沒有達到所謂經濟學的下盛的效果嘛沒有下盛的效果當中貧富差距就越來越大嘛\n局長,你難道只有做這些統計報告而已,你沒有任何一個具體的一個政策建議,要求其他相關部會來做一些改善嗎?謝謝委員,這個部分齁,所得不驚,貧富不驚,這個我們在開始做專案調查,也在努力除夕要多年的調查\n專案調查之外有沒有什麼專案的建議或政策或要求今年會提出來今年什麼時候今年我再結算報告為什麼我問你的時候你才會提出來這個現在已經持續很久了本來就有內陸的這個專案調查了你今年你說你再重複一次今年幾月的時候會提出來因為我我固定7月底以前要送審核報告對7月底是全部啦地方也都會出來嘛對不對你的7月底會有具體的喔\n可操作的喔有效的喔可以改善的喔我會好好看喔那我再跟你講最後一分鐘的時間齁其實我們不是完全沒有努力蔡政府過去八年來都有進行基本工資的調整但是基本工資的調整它的整個主體推高的這一個層面相對是比較屬於低薪階級的部分的這一個薪資結構有所部分的改善\n但是最關鍵的部分是在中階的部分也就是說所得勞動所得在中階的部分幾乎影響就相對比較少過往我們也提過所謂的中小企業加薪這個抵稅但實質上當初的法令居然用一個很高的失業率做一個標準根本沒有辦法達成圖有條文而且我們也將近把整個企業營運進行課稅也做過這樣的努力但是實際上\n也是好到股東沒有好到勞工啊?\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.067 --> 00:10.829\n主席有請陳任允我們審計長再請陳審計長備選各位好審計長好審計長根據你這一個年度的這個決算報告當中的一些審計內容以及審計意見那個人對審計意見當中還有一些意見\n\n00:30.663 --> 00:53.489\n也就是說你在分析上的問題確實是有些點到但是意見上仍有不足之處有些問題想要就教於您那特別是本席一直持續長期來一直關心的這個社會住宅問題當中您有特別提到那以社會住宅來說的話我們蔡總統的任內的一個努力到目前為止已經有127,924戶\n\n00:57.503 --> 01:24.340\n但是如果即便12萬戶這邊全部完工的話他預計是在整個住宅市場當中佔有1.5%那後續的部分我們的總統當選賴清德先生他也基本上提出一個叫高達25萬戶那如果累計25萬戶完成的話大概可以預計超過3%但是還有其他的部分還有包租代管的部分的25萬戶的情況底下累計目標應該可以達到6%\n\n01:26.059 --> 01:40.129\n這個情況已經超過5%為什麼要強調這個部分呢這是一個政策的目標而這個政策目標明顯是呼籲當年一些民間團體的訴求希望在住宅正義的部分有社會住宅相關的供給數能夠超過5%\n\n01:44.127 --> 01:57.610\n但是這5%的這個目標即便定了之後後面是執行的狀況但是執行的部分如何?當然省紀部就扮演一個非常重要的一個角色那我舉一個為什麼社會住宅現在\n\n01:58.618 --> 02:22.758\n之所以會如此的一個重要性大家之所以會如此關注的一個很重要的一個原因是一來感覺上呢速度沒有我們想像中的期待的那麼快也就是目前為止實際的完工數不到3萬但是加上規劃中當然雖有12萬多但是為什麼這種急迫感是一種外在環境的一些變化外在環境的變化也就是說我們現在的房租的物價指數節節攀升創下歷史新高\n\n02:26.221 --> 02:55.056\n而且我們房價的所得比也是節節攀升也是創價利率有時間高一個是105.37一個是到了9.61倍再加上房貸的負擔率也是攀升超過4成但是相對而言我們社會住宅的這個中遷率大約是在15%在20%之間那中遷率的這個偏低也就代表什麼就供不應求供不應求\n\n02:55.902 --> 03:17.378\n那這種供不應求的情況底下你們所做的報告內容當中有進行社會住宅現金收支的推估明顯看得出來內政部跟審計部有相當程度的落差從100年到172年推估的時間算非常之長落差的幅度你們認為是-2966億\n\n03:22.011 --> 03:48.171\n而內政部認為會有剩餘309億兩個部會之間相差之多超過3000億以上但是可是呢省基部在租租東興的規劃計畫當中呢你們認為高估的這個租金的收入可是問題是社會住宅他考慮到的除了營建成本跟這一個新建成本之外他本身有一定的程度的政策目標的存在對不對\n\n03:49.031 --> 04:15.992\n那政策目標不在如果一直只是考慮到所謂自償率的部分的話你又點出一個部分說要內政部沿你所謂的合理的可負擔的租金的分級收費原則看起來齁又是點到為止那就是說積極面的部分呢從社會主題面向其實資金是一個很大的一個方向在昨天的財政委員會當中呢那個內政部在我們的質詢當中他提出了\n\n04:16.525 --> 04:28.294\n所謂要創再提供創造一個一兆元以上的綠色債券的這個可能性來解決他的這個資金上的需求我不知道沈記長你的看法怎麼樣\n\n04:29.922 --> 04:53.842\n如果社會住宅是社會上民眾所需要的話我們要想盡辦法來執行那我們的租金收租的這個顧我們也只是提醒要他稍微注意一下那至於怎麼收或者用什麼方法因為要讓民眾能夠有社會住宅口住總體來說資金的部分財務面向的問題\n\n04:58.410 --> 05:24.936\n那財務面向的部分你們也點出所謂的營運資金不足嘛那營運資金不足你就點到這邊而已就沒有其他的建議也就是說其實就一個社會住宅這個興建的部分資金當然是一個面向資金的面向它可以透過舉債增加預算或者其他的方式在你審計部的這個審計意見當中都付之確如啊沒有看見嘛就是說第一個是不是舉債的方式\n\n05:25.748 --> 05:51.599\n第二個你也是審計相關的部會你也知道不同的部會當中有不同的問題的存在依照目前為止台灣其實是不缺資金民間的資金非常之多甚至有些資金會過剩而跑到海外軍事投資特別是受險基金的部分是否有效性的可以引導受險基金走入這個社會住宅的市場當中這個都是可能性\n\n05:52.859 --> 06:17.789\n我就不曉得為什麼審計長你這個部分都沒有去注意到也沒有提到這個審計意見更何況是不是有創造一個新的可能性也就是諸多東西的這67億預算當中已經是最高的情況底下與其你把它當作預算是不是把它當作利息的預算來做支應也就是說把它換算成3%你就可以舉債到2000多億就可以迎刃化解它的資金面的財務問題啊\n\n06:19.688 --> 06:40.366\n市長你的看法怎麼樣這個部分委員的意見我們尊重但是我們沒有做這一部分我們會回去做這方面的評估對本席就是希望你在審計意見當中更加充實除了這個資金的面向之外還有一個面向還有一個面向是時間成本\n\n06:41.345 --> 06:57.804\n什麼時間成本呢就實務當中你們要去深刻的去理解為什麼社會住宅會推出這麼慢的原因有一個關鍵的因素就是土地取得土地取得為什麼會造成這麼大的困難他一來就是呢剩餘土地呢\n\n06:58.807 --> 07:19.152\n適合的土地空間不多二來還有使用分區的問題一旦使用分區出現問題的時候你還要走用地變更又要一段時間所以他時間當然會拖長啊所以站在審計單位你應該要求其他單位休講擁有土地持有單位較多的地方的單位在哪裡依賴嘛國有財產署嘛\n\n07:20.987 --> 07:36.219\n二來嘛就是台台嘛三來嘛就是軍方嘛大概是這三個單位當中有沒有可能釋出土地空間來配合國家的總體的一個社會住宅的政策這就是你的職責所待啊沈議長因為我們發現啊他有國有地裡面還有107處啊閒住在那裡\n\n07:40.983 --> 08:02.111\n你都知道有107處的閒置空間在那邊也就是如同國土財產署他現在管理的這些觀設、聽設、閒置不用的有沒有可能作為活化或者來作為社會住宅的一個土地空間有沒有可能這個沒有去思考嗎\n\n08:04.502 --> 08:27.439\n委員這個意見很好,我們會來提供可以納入你的審計意見當中吧好另外一個部分呢,也就是說呢,你的土地取得,你興建社會住宅的部分你也可以思考多元化的可能啊什麼是多元化的可能?現在國有財產署500坪以上不能賣嘛,對不對?對不對?對那它可以用的方式是什麼?\n\n08:28.779 --> 08:53.559\n設定地上全嗎?那有沒有可能創造地上全屋的一種方式也是提供社會住宅一種可能性啊?方法之一啊?對不對?或者還有包括是什麼?就是說設定這種地上全的方式之外以前地方政府也曾經有成功的BOT的案例而且速度非常之快不到三年就已經興建完成\n\n08:55.322 --> 09:22.495\n那為什麼在你的審計審計報告當中都沒有看到這種政策建議政策建議就是你審計部的責任嘛對不對委員都訴考很多人我們會照委員的來評估以後提出我們的審核意見對這些具體的內容我一五一十告訴你就資金的面向財務的面向以及呢這個土地的因素還有時間的成本的考慮當中來具體\n\n09:24.434 --> 09:52.197\n你出來提出一個可以操作的一個建議方式來要求相關部會來完成這一個政策目標我剛剛為什麼一開始就給你提政策目標就是5%以上是呼應民間的一個期待如果就常態性的租屋者的需求在台灣是有超過80萬以上常態性的需求當中為什麼需要因為我們社會住宅不但是重簽率低\n\n09:53.137 --> 10:02.126\n而且呢你入住的時間還非常有限你如果不是弱勢者的話你挺多住3年再加3年也就挺多6年而已\n\n10:03.410 --> 10:31.480\n就國外的例子當中呢是可以達到租者有其屋的一個政策目標欸對不對如果你社會住宅要推到一個真正一個符合政策目標的話還不在於說供給量的5%或6%而已而是長期的可以供給這些相對弱勢而無法達到居住正義的這一群租屋者的需求才是真正的政策目標我覺得沈議長你應該在內心當中要有一種政策目標啦委員的\n\n10:33.481 --> 10:54.105\n剛剛的研究對社會住宅的研究非常深入我們會照委員的意見來評估麻煩盡可能採用這些建議多給這些相關部會一點壓力然後進行日後持續性的一個成績好不好後面的部分你特別還有提到一個問題也就是關於這個企業這個\n\n10:58.042 --> 11:09.555\n銀魚的部分占的GDP比例你在110年度決算的審計報告中正對行政院重要的審核意見當中對受僱者的占有GDP的比例當中創10年的新低嗎?對不對?\n\n11:11.109 --> 11:20.033\n此內心地當中我們所佔的比例是36.53%但是43.03%但是企業盈餘的佔比卻逐漸攀升也就是說你看到的這些相關的數字當中受僱者的報酬佔GDP的比例是從45.77一直滑落到43.03\n\n11:35.563 --> 11:41.891\n然後另外一個部分呢企業的盈餘的占GDP比是31.82一直逐漸攀升到36.53這個告訴我們什麼\n\n11:45.612 --> 12:11.701\n就是貧富差距的根本原因最近兩則新聞你看台灣億萬富豪的部分佔11萬人持有財產32萬兆累積的億萬財富有69%都是55歲的當然這55歲不包括本人但是另外一個部分是30歲以下的勞工朋友23%沒有存款是零存儲\n\n12:13.257 --> 12:39.768\n有46%的青年人認為負債已經造成了沉重的經濟壓力?當你解釋這一個圖表的時候那我就把你的圖表做一個衍生我做一個國家主要國家的比較你看喔收估者人數的這個報酬率的這個GDP比我們剛剛看到是43點起數字上尾數有些差異沒有什麼關係但是日本是占多少\n\n12:40.868 --> 13:01.583\n日本是占過一半52.6%美國也是52.2%南韓52.2%也就三個國家都是超過一半了都是52%以上唯獨台灣啊是在43%好你去看盈餘喔盈餘GDP我們剛好相反反正我是最高我們最高的部分呢我們台灣是34.4%美國是24.6%南韓是22%日本呢是13.1%\n\n13:08.738 --> 13:29.830\n那你看到這種結構性的因素當中以前我們也花了很多時間在做一些努力啊你做這些統計報告當中你就可以看得出來企業越來越賺錢嘛但是整個經濟的成果並沒有達到所謂經濟學的下盛的效果嘛沒有下盛的效果當中貧富差距就越來越大嘛\n\n13:30.851 --> 13:46.987\n局長,你難道只有做這些統計報告而已,你沒有任何一個具體的一個政策建議,要求其他相關部會來做一些改善嗎?謝謝委員,這個部分齁,所得不驚,貧富不驚,這個我們在開始做專案調查,也在努力除夕要多年的調查\n\n13:48.087 --> 14:11.163\n專案調查之外有沒有什麼專案的建議或政策或要求今年會提出來今年什麼時候今年我再結算報告為什麼我問你的時候你才會提出來這個現在已經持續很久了本來就有內陸的這個專案調查了你今年你說你再重複一次今年幾月的時候會提出來因為我我固定7月底以前要送審核報告對7月底是全部啦地方也都會出來嘛對不對你的7月底會有具體的喔\n\n14:12.003 --> 14:41.076\n可操作的喔有效的喔可以改善的喔我會好好看喔那我再跟你講最後一分鐘的時間齁其實我們不是完全沒有努力蔡政府過去八年來都有進行基本工資的調整但是基本工資的調整它的整個主體推高的這一個層面相對是比較屬於低薪階級的部分的這一個薪資結構有所部分的改善\n\n14:42.130 --> 15:10.672\n但是最關鍵的部分是在中階的部分也就是說所得勞動所得在中階的部分幾乎影響就相對比較少過往我們也提過所謂的中小企業加薪這個抵稅但實質上當初的法令居然用一個很高的失業率做一個標準根本沒有辦法達成圖有條文而且我們也將近把整個企業營運進行課稅也做過這樣的努力但是實際上\n\n15:12.233 --> 15:15.037\n也是好到股東沒有好到勞工啊?\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.067,"end":10.829,"text":"主席有請陳任允我們審計長再請陳審計長備選各位好審計長好審計長根據你這一個年度的這個決算報告當中的一些審計內容以及審計意見那個人對審計意見當中還有一些意見"},{"start":30.663,"end":53.489,"text":"也就是說你在分析上的問題確實是有些點到但是意見上仍有不足之處有些問題想要就教於您那特別是本席一直持續長期來一直關心的這個社會住宅問題當中您有特別提到那以社會住宅來說的話我們蔡總統的任內的一個努力到目前為止已經有127,924戶"},{"start":57.503,"end":84.34,"text":"但是如果即便12萬戶這邊全部完工的話他預計是在整個住宅市場當中佔有1.5%那後續的部分我們的總統當選賴清德先生他也基本上提出一個叫高達25萬戶那如果累計25萬戶完成的話大概可以預計超過3%但是還有其他的部分還有包租代管的部分的25萬戶的情況底下累計目標應該可以達到6%"},{"start":86.059,"end":100.129,"text":"這個情況已經超過5%為什麼要強調這個部分呢這是一個政策的目標而這個政策目標明顯是呼籲當年一些民間團體的訴求希望在住宅正義的部分有社會住宅相關的供給數能夠超過5%"},{"start":104.127,"end":117.61,"text":"但是這5%的這個目標即便定了之後後面是執行的狀況但是執行的部分如何?當然省紀部就扮演一個非常重要的一個角色那我舉一個為什麼社會住宅現在"},{"start":118.618,"end":142.758,"text":"之所以會如此的一個重要性大家之所以會如此關注的一個很重要的一個原因是一來感覺上呢速度沒有我們想像中的期待的那麼快也就是目前為止實際的完工數不到3萬但是加上規劃中當然雖有12萬多但是為什麼這種急迫感是一種外在環境的一些變化外在環境的變化也就是說我們現在的房租的物價指數節節攀升創下歷史新高"},{"start":146.221,"end":175.056,"text":"而且我們房價的所得比也是節節攀升也是創價利率有時間高一個是105.37一個是到了9.61倍再加上房貸的負擔率也是攀升超過4成但是相對而言我們社會住宅的這個中遷率大約是在15%在20%之間那中遷率的這個偏低也就代表什麼就供不應求供不應求"},{"start":175.902,"end":197.378,"text":"那這種供不應求的情況底下你們所做的報告內容當中有進行社會住宅現金收支的推估明顯看得出來內政部跟審計部有相當程度的落差從100年到172年推估的時間算非常之長落差的幅度你們認為是-2966億"},{"start":202.011,"end":228.171,"text":"而內政部認為會有剩餘309億兩個部會之間相差之多超過3000億以上但是可是呢省基部在租租東興的規劃計畫當中呢你們認為高估的這個租金的收入可是問題是社會住宅他考慮到的除了營建成本跟這一個新建成本之外他本身有一定的程度的政策目標的存在對不對"},{"start":229.031,"end":255.992,"text":"那政策目標不在如果一直只是考慮到所謂自償率的部分的話你又點出一個部分說要內政部沿你所謂的合理的可負擔的租金的分級收費原則看起來齁又是點到為止那就是說積極面的部分呢從社會主題面向其實資金是一個很大的一個方向在昨天的財政委員會當中呢那個內政部在我們的質詢當中他提出了"},{"start":256.525,"end":268.294,"text":"所謂要創再提供創造一個一兆元以上的綠色債券的這個可能性來解決他的這個資金上的需求我不知道沈記長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":269.922,"end":293.842,"text":"如果社會住宅是社會上民眾所需要的話我們要想盡辦法來執行那我們的租金收租的這個顧我們也只是提醒要他稍微注意一下那至於怎麼收或者用什麼方法因為要讓民眾能夠有社會住宅口住總體來說資金的部分財務面向的問題"},{"start":298.41,"end":324.936,"text":"那財務面向的部分你們也點出所謂的營運資金不足嘛那營運資金不足你就點到這邊而已就沒有其他的建議也就是說其實就一個社會住宅這個興建的部分資金當然是一個面向資金的面向它可以透過舉債增加預算或者其他的方式在你審計部的這個審計意見當中都付之確如啊沒有看見嘛就是說第一個是不是舉債的方式"},{"start":325.748,"end":351.599,"text":"第二個你也是審計相關的部會你也知道不同的部會當中有不同的問題的存在依照目前為止台灣其實是不缺資金民間的資金非常之多甚至有些資金會過剩而跑到海外軍事投資特別是受險基金的部分是否有效性的可以引導受險基金走入這個社會住宅的市場當中這個都是可能性"},{"start":352.859,"end":377.789,"text":"我就不曉得為什麼審計長你這個部分都沒有去注意到也沒有提到這個審計意見更何況是不是有創造一個新的可能性也就是諸多東西的這67億預算當中已經是最高的情況底下與其你把它當作預算是不是把它當作利息的預算來做支應也就是說把它換算成3%你就可以舉債到2000多億就可以迎刃化解它的資金面的財務問題啊"},{"start":379.688,"end":400.366,"text":"市長你的看法怎麼樣這個部分委員的意見我們尊重但是我們沒有做這一部分我們會回去做這方面的評估對本席就是希望你在審計意見當中更加充實除了這個資金的面向之外還有一個面向還有一個面向是時間成本"},{"start":401.345,"end":417.804,"text":"什麼時間成本呢就實務當中你們要去深刻的去理解為什麼社會住宅會推出這麼慢的原因有一個關鍵的因素就是土地取得土地取得為什麼會造成這麼大的困難他一來就是呢剩餘土地呢"},{"start":418.807,"end":439.152,"text":"適合的土地空間不多二來還有使用分區的問題一旦使用分區出現問題的時候你還要走用地變更又要一段時間所以他時間當然會拖長啊所以站在審計單位你應該要求其他單位休講擁有土地持有單位較多的地方的單位在哪裡依賴嘛國有財產署嘛"},{"start":440.987,"end":456.219,"text":"二來嘛就是台台嘛三來嘛就是軍方嘛大概是這三個單位當中有沒有可能釋出土地空間來配合國家的總體的一個社會住宅的政策這就是你的職責所待啊 沈議長因為我們發現啊他有國有地裡面還有107處啊 閒住在那裡"},{"start":460.983,"end":482.111,"text":"你都知道有107處的閒置空間在那邊也就是如同國土財產署他現在管理的這些觀設、聽設、閒置不用的有沒有可能作為活化或者來作為社會住宅的一個土地空間有沒有可能這個沒有去思考嗎"},{"start":484.502,"end":507.439,"text":"委員這個意見很好,我們會來提供可以納入你的審計意見當中吧好另外一個部分呢,也就是說呢,你的土地取得,你興建社會住宅的部分你也可以思考多元化的可能啊什麼是多元化的可能?現在國有財產署500坪以上不能賣嘛,對不對?對不對?對那它可以用的方式是什麼?"},{"start":508.779,"end":533.559,"text":"設定地上全嗎?那有沒有可能創造地上全屋的一種方式也是提供社會住宅一種可能性啊?方法之一啊?對不對?或者還有包括是什麼?就是說設定這種地上全的方式之外以前地方政府也曾經有成功的BOT的案例而且速度非常之快不到三年就已經興建完成"},{"start":535.322,"end":562.495,"text":"那為什麼在你的審計審計報告當中都沒有看到這種政策建議政策建議就是你審計部的責任嘛對不對委員都訴考很多人我們會照委員的來評估以後提出我們的審核意見對這些具體的內容我一五一十告訴你就資金的面向財務的面向以及呢這個土地的因素還有時間的成本的考慮當中來具體"},{"start":564.434,"end":592.197,"text":"你出來提出一個可以操作的一個建議方式來要求相關部會來完成這一個政策目標我剛剛為什麼一開始就給你提政策目標就是5%以上是呼應民間的一個期待如果就常態性的租屋者的需求在台灣是有超過80萬以上常態性的需求當中為什麼需要因為我們社會住宅不但是重簽率低"},{"start":593.137,"end":602.126,"text":"而且呢你入住的時間還非常有限你如果不是弱勢者的話你挺多住3年再加3年也就挺多6年而已"},{"start":603.41,"end":631.48,"text":"就國外的例子當中呢是可以達到租者有其屋的一個政策目標欸對不對如果你社會住宅要推到一個真正一個符合政策目標的話還不在於說供給量的5%或6%而已而是長期的可以供給這些相對弱勢而無法達到居住正義的這一群租屋者的需求才是真正的政策目標我覺得沈議長你應該在內心當中要有一種政策目標啦委員的"},{"start":633.481,"end":654.105,"text":"剛剛的研究對社會住宅的研究非常深入我們會照委員的意見來評估麻煩盡可能採用這些建議多給這些相關部會一點壓力然後進行日後持續性的一個成績好不好後面的部分你特別還有提到一個問題也就是關於這個企業這個"},{"start":658.042,"end":669.555,"text":"銀魚的部分占的GDP比例你在110年度決算的審計報告中正對行政院重要的審核意見當中對受僱者的占有GDP的比例當中創10年的新低嗎?對不對?"},{"start":671.109,"end":680.033,"text":"此內心地當中我們所佔的比例是36.53%但是43.03%但是企業盈餘的佔比卻逐漸攀升也就是說你看到的這些相關的數字當中受僱者的報酬佔GDP的比例是從45.77一直滑落到43.03"},{"start":695.563,"end":701.891,"text":"然後另外一個部分呢企業的盈餘的占GDP比是31.82一直逐漸攀升到36.53這個告訴我們什麼"},{"start":705.612,"end":731.701,"text":"就是貧富差距的根本原因最近兩則新聞你看台灣億萬富豪的部分佔11萬人持有財產32萬兆累積的億萬財富有69%都是55歲的當然這55歲不包括本人但是另外一個部分是30歲以下的勞工朋友23%沒有存款是零存儲"},{"start":733.257,"end":759.768,"text":"有46%的青年人認為負債已經造成了沉重的經濟壓力?當你解釋這一個圖表的時候那我就把你的圖表做一個衍生我做一個國家主要國家的比較你看喔收估者人數的這個報酬率的這個GDP比我們剛剛看到是43點起數字上尾數有些差異沒有什麼關係但是日本是占多少"},{"start":760.868,"end":781.583,"text":"日本是占過一半52.6%美國也是52.2%南韓52.2%也就三個國家都是超過一半了都是52%以上唯獨台灣啊是在43%好你去看盈餘喔盈餘GDP我們剛好相反反正我是最高我們最高的部分呢我們台灣是34.4%美國是24.6%南韓是22%日本呢是13.1%"},{"start":788.738,"end":809.83,"text":"那你看到這種結構性的因素當中以前我們也花了很多時間在做一些努力啊你做這些統計報告當中你就可以看得出來企業越來越賺錢嘛但是整個經濟的成果並沒有達到所謂經濟學的下盛的效果嘛沒有下盛的效果當中貧富差距就越來越大嘛"},{"start":810.851,"end":826.987,"text":"局長,你難道只有做這些統計報告而已,你沒有任何一個具體的一個政策建議,要求其他相關部會來做一些改善嗎?謝謝委員,這個部分齁,所得不驚,貧富不驚,這個我們在開始做專案調查,也在努力除夕要多年的調查"},{"start":828.087,"end":851.163,"text":"專案調查之外有沒有什麼專案的建議或政策或要求今年會提出來今年什麼時候今年我再結算報告為什麼我問你的時候你才會提出來這個現在已經持續很久了本來就有內陸的這個專案調查了你今年你說你再重複一次今年幾月的時候會提出來因為我我固定7月底以前要送審核報告對7月底是全部啦地方也都會出來嘛對不對你的7月底會有具體的喔"},{"start":852.003,"end":881.076,"text":"可操作的喔有效的喔可以改善的喔我會好好看喔那我再跟你講最後一分鐘的時間齁其實我們不是完全沒有努力蔡政府過去八年來都有進行基本工資的調整但是基本工資的調整它的整個主體推高的這一個層面相對是比較屬於低薪階級的部分的這一個薪資結構有所部分的改善"},{"start":882.13,"end":910.672,"text":"但是最關鍵的部分是在中階的部分也就是說所得勞動所得在中階的部分幾乎影響就相對比較少過往我們也提過所謂的中小企業加薪這個抵稅但實質上當初的法令居然用一個很高的失業率做一個標準根本沒有辦法達成圖有條文而且我們也將近把整個企業營運進行課稅也做過這樣的努力但是實際上"},{"start":912.233,"end":915.037,"text":"也是好到股東沒有好到勞工啊?"}]}}}}