{"id":150840,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150840","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fc4c2557f84daba5b4da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a621fef65ff170004a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:14:29 - 11:27:41","影片長度":"00:13:12","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":792,"end_time":"2024-04-02T11:27:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T11:14:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":454,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時14分）主席好。有請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：審計長好。我想審計部在決算的審核上相當用心，因為我看了你們的報告就適正合規，還有效能的部分，我想你們扮演了很重要的角色。今天我有兩點建議，希望審計部能夠納入考量，讓我們未來的決算審核方向可以更完整，找出我們的政策實行、執行過程中可能的漏洞，希望審計長能夠接納。","好，首先請問審計長，你有沒有聽過性別主流化？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，我以前……"],["范委員雲：可以簡單講一下什麼是性別主流化嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：性別主流化就是大家性別平等吧！"],["范委員雲：呃？是性別平等而已嗎？那為什麼要有性別主流化這個新名詞？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我就沒有委員那麼專業了。"],["范委員雲：好，這個要拜託審計長能夠瞭解，因為它是聯合國的重要方向，也是我們政府的政策方向。它是1997年由聯合國經濟及社會理事會定義，要求政府做什麼呢？評估所有的計畫行動，包含立法、政策、方案等對男女雙方不同的含義影響，就是要讓男女雙方受益均等，政府有職責要落實性別平等，所以主流化就是這個性別議題在所有的政策中都應該是主流，因為政府扮演重要的角色，預算就是政府裡重要的執行。行政院性別平等處也有手冊叫大家怎麼做，因為內容蠻多的，我就念幾點。第一個，要能發展政策去矯正不平等及改變導致不平等的機制。第二個，所有的政府部門都應該運用的策略，所以我們施政團隊早在陳水扁擔任總統的時候就開始推動了，這裡面有六大工具，這是國際性的，第一個是性別統計，最後一個是性別預算，這兩個東西都跟您的審計有關。性別統計非常重要，為什麼重要？如果連統計都沒有的話，我們就不會知道有沒有效果。這個審計長同意吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：同意。"],["范委員雲：所以統計是基本的，如果你都看不出這個政策對性別的差異，那你剛看到的年齡、城鄉、身心，其實是沒辦法做一個有效的政策工具，就是性別分析，就是你的政策，譬如前瞻對不同性別的影響，你就做不出來了，所以審計部的決算應該要審核行政院的方案有沒有落實。可不可以請問審計長，您覺得目前你們生產的報告有沒有落實性別主流化呢？如果從0分到100分，您自己打幾分？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：其實是這樣，剛剛聽了委員的這個性別主流化，我更加深入，我們審計部現在是請李安妮、周清玉等幫忙這方面，但是在審核的部分，我們是有關注到，但沒有說像委員這樣落實到一個題目出來。"],["范委員雲：那0到100分，您給現在的報告內容……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：差不多60分。"],["范委員雲：60分？好啦！我不知道您這是好還是不好，以我來看是還沒到60分，不過也許我們的標準不一樣，那我有三個建議，也就是三大問題，第一個，行政院及所屬部會其實有編列性別預算，可是行政院的決算報告裡都沒有把決審的審核機制納進去，也就是當時有編列性別預算，可是沒有相關決算報告，你們也沒有去審核到底他們性別預算做的怎麼樣，這是第一個問題。第二個，中央政府的決算，還有你們的決算審核，完全沒有性別統計，誠如我剛剛講的，聯合國的性別主流化六大工具裡面，性別統計是最重要的，如果統計都沒有的話，我們就看不出來政策執行的影響力。我舉個例子給您看，我這邊是衛福部兒少自殺死亡人口的數據，根據統計，男性自殺率高於女性，可見自殺率有性別差異，可是審核意見裡通篇都沒有，這裡面針對兒少群自殺跟心理健康的議題有看到衛福部的審核，但他完全沒有提出來，這樣子我們看不到性別的差異，明明就知道自殺率是有性別差異的，男性也許是因為各方面的壓力大，所以自殺率比較高。因為我們都看不到性別差異，自然就沒辦法看到在這個決算當中，整個政策的執行做得好不好，這是一個例子，所以說為什麼性別統計很重要。","你們的第三個問題是你們的決算審核報告，以我來看，您剛剛講的李安妮的確是專家，希望可以多請教她。的確缺乏性別主流化的觀點，你們有很多決算審查意見都非常好，可是我舉一個例子，為什麼你們的報告沒有性別主流化觀點？大家可以看到，少子化是我們預算的重要一個部分，可是你們針對少子化預算執行中的專業意見是什麼？逾齡國人逾五成未婚，有待強化對未婚族群之關注政策，鼓勵適齡結婚，這就是你們提出的方向。少子化是全球普遍的議題，審計長應該也知道，那人家解決少子化問題最好的國家是哪些您知不知道？不知道？哪些國家解決了少子化的議題？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：本來日本是很低啦，後來有一段時間它有拉升上來。韓國也是很低迷，現在也都在解決，但是日本也有提出適齡的問題。"],["范委員雲：如果只看日本跟韓國，我們就是在一群低生育率的國家裡面相互學習啦，目前能夠解決生育率議題最好的其實是北歐國家，因為他們找出正確的解方。我剛剛還跟劉毓秀教授一起開記者會，除了公托要普及之外，我們的育嬰假要大改革，做到婚育平衡，這是國際的共同解方。如果我們沒有看到解方，因為你現在不可能叫女性退出職場，他們受到教育之後進入職場，如果他進入職場之後蠟燭兩頭燒，他當然就越生越少了，所以重要的是這幾個解方。我沒有看到哪個國家有這樣的解方，不僅沒有性別平等的價值跟理解，最重要的就是沒有性別主流化，看到真正的問題，好嗎？聯合國在2019年針對少子化有提出報告，各位上網都可以查也可以download，針對東亞，尤其指出臺灣低生育率的原因是性別分工嚴重失衡，女性被期待負擔照顧責任，但是職涯與育兒難以兼顧，所以審計部的建議缺乏性別主流化的觀點，如果行政院依照你們的建議去做的話，其實是不會找到解方的。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員剛剛說的那些我們都有建議，所以和委員的立場也差不多，但是因為我們的……"],["范委員雲：你們的報告我剛剛又再讀一次，就是非常沒有性別主流化觀點的報告，尤其是針對少子化，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["范委員雲：具體建議三點，第一個，要求各級政府單位決算中要納入性別統計，重要關係人政策的重要關係人受益者要有性別統計；第二個，審核行政院自己列的性別預算的執行狀況；第三個，請你們的專業審核報告中納入性別主流化的觀點，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，委員這個建議很好，我們來做。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。我相信你們可以找到很多專家願意幫你們，看看該如何改善。","再來我還有另外一個意見，剛剛也有委員提到你們的審核意見到底如何追蹤管考，我知道你們很努力，可是我從一個我關心的例子看到好像有點問題，就是我長期監督教育部，也很關心大專院校轉型跟退場基金的成效，可是我們已經看到從107年到111年五年之間停辦的學校增加了五所，教育部顯然還沒有協助學校用多重的方式因應。111年的報告也指出，針對110年的考核意見仍待繼續改善，均再研提審核意見通知檢討改善。審計長，你們對部會預算執行改善成效不佳也只能這樣寫嗎？這樣有用嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會鍥而不捨地來努力，因為這個也是教育部比較重大的問題。"],["范委員雲：我是有點擔心，因為我們對審計長期待很高，針對成效不彰的部分，你們至少應該要寫得更強而有力一點吧，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，我們會遵照委員的意見。"],["范委員雲：尤其教育是國家對下一代人才的投資，退場的議題大家都非常地關心，因為它影響到的是退場教師的權益、退場學生的權益，教育部已經有給它相關的工具在這裡了，如果你們都看到做得不夠好的話，一定要更加嚴格，好嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["范委員雲：因為你們是掌握……各部會都很重視你們。最後，我具體地建議你們要強化監督各級政府施政及究責，提供具體的施政建議，為國家把關資源做有效的運用。如果審計部看到部會做得不好的時候，應該要善用自己的職權，通知表現不好機關的上級機關，對不對？譬如教育部的高教司沒做好，就要通知部長；部長如果都不聽的話，你們不就應該要跟行政院長、上級機關，也向監察院報告，好嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝委員的支持，我們都會照委員的意思，這是我們的職責。"],["范委員雲：好。如何提升效能及增進公共利益是審計部向行政院提出建議、要求確實改善的重要職責，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員支持，我們會來努力。"],["范委員雲：當行政院都在推動性別主流化的話，我想審計部也要跟上。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們有。"],["范委員雲：監察院也有不少專家。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：但是委員講的審核報告要注意性別主流化，我已經記進去了。"],["范委員雲：對，報告的專業意見，您記得是哪方面有問題嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：你剛剛說少子化，就講我說適齡結婚等等，那是我們的面向之一。"],["范委員雲：好，少子化是一個例子，這麼一個性別相關的你們的專業意見缺乏性別主流化，另外一個是監督要有決算報告、要有性別統計。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["范委員雲：另外一個就是你們也要針對行政院自己列出的性別預算，監督它的成效，好嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對於性別預算，我們會追蹤、會考核。"],["范委員雲：至少三大問題。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員，我們來努力。"],["范委員雲：我明年會繼續來監督一下……不是監督，是給你們建議，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝，歡迎委員監督我們。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第9號賴委員士葆詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政\n府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告（中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30\n日）」審核經過並備諮詢－詢答完畢－","agenda_id":"1131801_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"150840","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150840","tool":"pyannote","id":"150840-pyannote"},"job_id":"oaaNraiaY4Bmd8eE","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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,154 --> 00:00:04,917\n主席好有請審計長麻煩再請陳審計長備選歡迎你好\n\n2\n00:00:16,955 --> 00:00:35,815\n審計長好我想審計部在決算的審核上相當用心了我看了你們的報告就市政合規還有效能的部分那我想你們扮演很重要的那個角色那今天就是我有兩點建議希望審計部能夠納入考量\n\n3\n00:00:36,375 --> 00:01:03,493\n讓我們的決算審核方向未來更完整那找出我們的政策還有實行執行的過程中可能的漏洞那希望那個沈記長能夠接納那首先我想先問一下沈記長有沒有聽過性別主流話有我以前啊都當過性別會的主流話什麼是性別主流話嗎可以簡單講一下什麼是性別主流話性別主流話就是大家性別平等吧\n\n4\n00:01:04,950 --> 00:01:08,728\n是性別平等而已嗎?那為什麼要一個新名詞性別主流化?\n\n5\n00:01:09,928 --> 00:01:35,845\n這個就沒有委員那麼專業了好那這個就拜託沈記長要能夠了解因為他是聯合國的重要方向也是我們政府的政策方向他是1997年聯合國經濟及社會理事會定義就是要求政府來做什麼評估所有的計畫的行動包含立法、政策方案對男女雙方不同的含義影響\n\n6\n00:01:36,866 --> 00:02:05,766\n那就是要讓男女雙方受益均等就是政府有職責要落實性別平等所以主流化就是這個性別的議題在所有的政策中都應該是主流那因為政府扮演重要的角色那預算呢就是政府裡面重要的執行那給您看我們行政院性別平等處也有手冊教大家怎麼做因為內容蠻多的我就\n\n7\n00:02:07,467 --> 00:02:17,675\n要能發展政策矯正不平等導致不平等的機制是所有政府部門都應該運用的策略施政團隊早在陳水扁擔任總統時就開始推動了\n\n8\n00:02:22,899 --> 00:02:23,039\n同意\n\n9\n00:02:45,194 --> 00:03:06,425\n所以統計是基本的如果你都看不出這個政策對性別的差異那你剛看到年齡、成相、身心的話其實是沒辦法做一個有效的政策工具就是性別分析就是你的政策譬如說前瞻對不同性別的影響你是做不出來了所以審計部的決算\n\n10\n00:03:07,225 --> 00:03:24,922\n就應該要來審核這是我們行政院自己的方案有沒有落實那可不可以請問那個沈記長您覺得您目前你們生產的報告有沒有落實這個性別主流化呢如果從0分到100分您自己打幾分\n\n11\n00:03:26,172 --> 00:03:43,643\n我們是其實這樣剛剛聽了委員的這個性別主流話我更加深入以前我都請我在我審計部現在請李安妮那個那個周清怡他們幫忙這方面但是在審核的這個部分\n\n12\n00:03:44,804 --> 00:04:12,196\n我們是有去注意關注到但是沒有說向委員要這樣落實到一個題目出來那0到100分您給現在的報告內容差不多60分60分喔好啦我不知道您這是好還是不好以我來看是還沒到60分不過當然就是說也許就是我們的標準不一樣那我有三個建議第一個就是他有三大問題第一個\n\n13\n00:04:13,917 --> 00:04:34,857\n行政院跟所屬部會其實有編列性別預算可是你們的決算報告裡面行政院決算報告裡面都沒有把這個決審的審核機制裡面都沒有納進去所以就是當時有編列性別預算可是沒有相關的決算報告那你們也沒有\n\n14\n00:04:35,077 --> 00:04:36,799\n我剛講的性別主流化聯合國的六大工具裡面性別統計是最重要的\n\n15\n00:04:55,037 --> 00:05:08,602\n如果統計都沒有的話我們就看不出來我們的政策執行的影響力我舉個例子給您看我這邊是衛福部的兒少自殺自殺死亡人口我們都知道自殺根據統計\n\n16\n00:05:10,843 --> 00:05:12,885\n男性自殺率高於女性\n\n17\n00:05:40,603 --> 00:06:07,139\n到這個決算整個政策的執行做得好不好那這是一個例子為什麼性別統計很重要那你們的第三個問題是你們的決算審核的報告以我來看您剛講的李安妮的確是專家希望可以多請教她就的確缺乏性別主流化的觀點你們很多的決算審查意見都非常好可是我舉個例子為什麼\n\n18\n00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:29,682\n你們的報告沒有性別主流化觀點大家看到了我們少子化是我們預算的重要一個部分可是呢你們針對這個少子化預算執行中的專業意見是什麼育齡國人育五成未婚有待強化對未婚族群之關注政策鼓勵適齡結婚\n\n19\n00:06:32,045 --> 00:06:47,160\n然後呢這是你們的方向我想少子化是全球普遍的議題那個主計長沈議長應該知道嘛那就是說人家解決的少子化的國家最好的是哪些您知不知道\n\n20\n00:06:49,820 --> 00:07:08,285\n不知道哪些國家解決了少子化的問題本來日本是很低啦後來他有一段時間他有拉升上來韓國也是在建制很低迷現在都在解決但是日本也有提出樹林的問題\n\n21\n00:07:09,545 --> 00:07:34,117\n如果我們只看日本跟韓國我們就是在一群低生育率的國家裡面相互學習目前能夠解決生育率的議題其實最好的是北歐國家因為他們找出正確的解方我剛剛還跟劉玉秀教授一起開記者會除了公托要普及之外我們的育嬰價要大改革\n\n22\n00:07:34,617 --> 00:07:39,700\n做到婚育平衡這是國際共同解方\n\n23\n00:07:58,092 --> 00:08:15,636\n不僅沒有一個性別平等的價值跟理解最重要的就是沒有性別主流化看到真正的問題好嗎聯合國2019年指出聯合國針對少子化有報告各位上網都可以查就是可以Download\n\n24\n00:08:16,496 --> 00:08:38,242\n東亞尤其是台灣有指出台灣低生育率的原因是性別分工嚴重失衡女性被期待負擔照顧責任但是職涯與育兒難以兼顧所以省計部的建議缺乏性別主流化的觀點如果我們行政院依照你們的建議去做的話這個就是說是不會\n\n25\n00:08:39,002 --> 00:08:39,542\n具體建議三點第一個\n\n26\n00:08:55,636 --> 00:09:16,779\n要求各級政府單位決算中要納入性別統計重要關係人政策的重要關係人受益者要有性別統計第二個審核行政院自己列的性別預算的執行狀況第三個請你們的專業審核報告中納入性別主流化的觀點好不好\n\n27\n00:09:17,139 --> 00:09:45,686\n好委員這個建議很好我們來做好謝謝那我相信你們可以找到很多專家願意幫你們就是說看如何改善那再來呢我還有另外一個意見就是剛剛的委員也有提到你們審核意見到底如何追蹤管考我知道你們很努力可是我從一個我關心的例子看到好像有點問題就是我長期監督教育部也很關心大專院校轉型跟退場\n\n28\n00:09:46,226 --> 00:09:48,268\n111年的報告也指出：針對110年的考核意見：\n\n29\n00:10:08,425 --> 00:10:22,678\n人代繼續改善經再研提審核意見通知前逃改善沈記長你們對部會預算執行改善成效不佳也只能這樣寫嗎?這樣有用嗎?\n\n30\n00:10:26,590 --> 00:10:46,104\n氣而不捨來努力因為他維持到這一種也是他教育部比較重大的一個問題我是有點擔心因為我們是對沈記長期待很高那針對那個成效不彰的你們至少應該要寫得更強而有力一點吧\n\n31\n00:10:46,824 --> 00:11:16,054\n每個政策委員的意見就是說尤其是這個教育的部分是國家對下一代人才的投資那退場的議題大家都非常的關心因為他影響到的是退場的教師的權益然後退場的學生的權益那教育部我們就已經有給他相關的工具在這裡的如果你們都看到做得不夠好的話那一定要更加嚴格好嗎因為你們是掌握各部會都很重視你們\n\n32\n00:11:16,994 --> 00:11:43,574\n那所以呢最後我具體的建議強化監督各級政府施政跟究責就是說提供具體的施政建議那為國家把關資源做有效的運用那我想就是因為如果就是審計部你們看到部會做得不好的時候應該要善用自己的職權那通知表現不好機關的上級機關對不對\n\n33\n00:11:46,317 --> 00:12:02,818\n如果教育部比如說高教師沒做好就要通知部長部長這邊如果都不聽的話你不就是應該要跟行政院長上級機關那也向監察院報告好嗎好謝謝委員的支持我們都會照委員的意思這是我們的主責\n\n34\n00:12:03,799 --> 00:12:32,613\n那如何提升效能跟增進公共利益是審計部向行政院提出建議要求確實改善的重要職責好不好?當我們行政院都在推動性別主流化的話我想我們審計部也要跟上那監察院也有不少專家但是委員講的那個審核報告要注意性別主流化我已經記進去了報告的專業意見那個您記得哪方面有問題嗎?\n\n35\n00:12:33,522 --> 00:13:00,191\n你說說剛剛少子化就講我說順領結婚的我們但是我們是面相之一啦好少子化是一個例子這麼一個性別相關的你們的專業意見缺乏性別主流化另外一個是監督要有決算報告要有性別統計好那另外一個就是就是你們也針對行政院自己列出的性別預算性別預算我們會追蹤會考核好嗎至少三大問題\n\n36\n00:13:01,472 --> 00:13:07,101\n謝謝委員送我們來努力那我明年會繼續來監督一下給你們建議好不好歡迎委員監督我們謝謝沈記長謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3154\t4917\t主席好有請審計長麻煩再請陳審計長備選歡迎你好\n16955\t35815\t審計長好我想審計部在決算的審核上相當用心了我看了你們的報告就市政合規還有效能的部分那我想你們扮演很重要的那個角色那今天就是我有兩點建議希望審計部能夠納入考量\n36375\t63493\t讓我們的決算審核方向未來更完整那找出我們的政策還有實行執行的過程中可能的漏洞那希望那個沈記長能夠接納那首先我想先問一下沈記長有沒有聽過性別主流話有我以前啊都當過性別會的主流話什麼是性別主流話嗎可以簡單講一下什麼是性別主流話性別主流話就是大家性別平等吧\n64950\t68728\t是性別平等而已嗎?那為什麼要一個新名詞性別主流化?\n69928\t95845\t這個就沒有委員那麼專業了好那這個就拜託沈記長要能夠了解因為他是聯合國的重要方向也是我們政府的政策方向他是1997年聯合國經濟及社會理事會定義就是要求政府來做什麼評估所有的計畫的行動包含立法、政策方案對男女雙方不同的含義影響\n96866\t125766\t那就是要讓男女雙方受益均等就是政府有職責要落實性別平等所以主流化就是這個性別的議題在所有的政策中都應該是主流那因為政府扮演重要的角色那預算呢就是政府裡面重要的執行那給您看我們行政院性別平等處也有手冊教大家怎麼做因為內容蠻多的我就\n127467\t137675\t要能發展政策矯正不平等導致不平等的機制是所有政府部門都應該運用的策略施政團隊早在陳水扁擔任總統時就開始推動了\n142899\t143039\t同意\n165194\t186425\t所以統計是基本的如果你都看不出這個政策對性別的差異那你剛看到年齡、成相、身心的話其實是沒辦法做一個有效的政策工具就是性別分析就是你的政策譬如說前瞻對不同性別的影響你是做不出來了所以審計部的決算\n187225\t204922\t就應該要來審核這是我們行政院自己的方案有沒有落實那可不可以請問那個沈記長您覺得您目前你們生產的報告有沒有落實這個性別主流化呢如果從0分到100分您自己打幾分\n206172\t223643\t我們是其實這樣剛剛聽了委員的這個性別主流話我更加深入以前我都請我在我審計部現在請李安妮那個那個周清怡他們幫忙這方面但是在審核的這個部分\n224804\t252196\t我們是有去注意關注到但是沒有說向委員要這樣落實到一個題目出來那0到100分您給現在的報告內容差不多60分60分喔好啦我不知道您這是好還是不好以我來看是還沒到60分不過當然就是說也許就是我們的標準不一樣那我有三個建議第一個就是他有三大問題第一個\n253917\t274857\t行政院跟所屬部會其實有編列性別預算可是你們的決算報告裡面行政院決算報告裡面都沒有把這個決審的審核機制裡面都沒有納進去所以就是當時有編列性別預算可是沒有相關的決算報告那你們也沒有\n275077\t276799\t我剛講的性別主流化聯合國的六大工具裡面性別統計是最重要的\n295037\t308602\t如果統計都沒有的話我們就看不出來我們的政策執行的影響力我舉個例子給您看我這邊是衛福部的兒少自殺自殺死亡人口我們都知道自殺根據統計\n310843\t312885\t男性自殺率高於女性\n340603\t367139\t到這個決算整個政策的執行做得好不好那這是一個例子為什麼性別統計很重要那你們的第三個問題是你們的決算審核的報告以我來看您剛講的李安妮的確是專家希望可以多請教她就的確缺乏性別主流化的觀點你們很多的決算審查意見都非常好可是我舉個例子為什麼\n368200\t389682\t你們的報告沒有性別主流化觀點大家看到了我們少子化是我們預算的重要一個部分可是呢你們針對這個少子化預算執行中的專業意見是什麼育齡國人育五成未婚有待強化對未婚族群之關注政策鼓勵適齡結婚\n392045\t407160\t然後呢這是你們的方向我想少子化是全球普遍的議題那個主計長沈議長應該知道嘛那就是說人家解決的少子化的國家最好的是哪些您知不知道\n409820\t428285\t不知道哪些國家解決了少子化的問題本來日本是很低啦後來他有一段時間他有拉升上來韓國也是在建制很低迷現在都在解決但是日本也有提出樹林的問題\n429545\t454117\t如果我們只看日本跟韓國我們就是在一群低生育率的國家裡面相互學習目前能夠解決生育率的議題其實最好的是北歐國家因為他們找出正確的解方我剛剛還跟劉玉秀教授一起開記者會除了公托要普及之外我們的育嬰價要大改革\n454617\t459700\t做到婚育平衡這是國際共同解方\n478092\t495636\t不僅沒有一個性別平等的價值跟理解最重要的就是沒有性別主流化看到真正的問題好嗎聯合國2019年指出聯合國針對少子化有報告各位上網都可以查就是可以Download\n496496\t518242\t東亞尤其是台灣有指出台灣低生育率的原因是性別分工嚴重失衡女性被期待負擔照顧責任但是職涯與育兒難以兼顧所以省計部的建議缺乏性別主流化的觀點如果我們行政院依照你們的建議去做的話這個就是說是不會\n519002\t519542\t具體建議三點第一個\n535636\t556779\t要求各級政府單位決算中要納入性別統計重要關係人政策的重要關係人受益者要有性別統計第二個審核行政院自己列的性別預算的執行狀況第三個請你們的專業審核報告中納入性別主流化的觀點好不好\n557139\t585686\t好委員這個建議很好我們來做好謝謝那我相信你們可以找到很多專家願意幫你們就是說看如何改善那再來呢我還有另外一個意見就是剛剛的委員也有提到你們審核意見到底如何追蹤管考我知道你們很努力可是我從一個我關心的例子看到好像有點問題就是我長期監督教育部也很關心大專院校轉型跟退場\n586226\t588268\t111年的報告也指出：針對110年的考核意見：\n608425\t622678\t人代繼續改善經再研提審核意見通知前逃改善沈記長你們對部會預算執行改善成效不佳也只能這樣寫嗎?這樣有用嗎?\n626590\t646104\t氣而不捨來努力因為他維持到這一種也是他教育部比較重大的一個問題我是有點擔心因為我們是對沈記長期待很高那針對那個成效不彰的你們至少應該要寫得更強而有力一點吧\n646824\t676054\t每個政策委員的意見就是說尤其是這個教育的部分是國家對下一代人才的投資那退場的議題大家都非常的關心因為他影響到的是退場的教師的權益然後退場的學生的權益那教育部我們就已經有給他相關的工具在這裡的如果你們都看到做得不夠好的話那一定要更加嚴格好嗎因為你們是掌握各部會都很重視你們\n676994\t703574\t那所以呢最後我具體的建議強化監督各級政府施政跟究責就是說提供具體的施政建議那為國家把關資源做有效的運用那我想就是因為如果就是審計部你們看到部會做得不好的時候應該要善用自己的職權那通知表現不好機關的上級機關對不對\n706317\t722818\t如果教育部比如說高教師沒做好就要通知部長部長這邊如果都不聽的話你不就是應該要跟行政院長上級機關那也向監察院報告好嗎好謝謝委員的支持我們都會照委員的意思這是我們的主責\n723799\t752613\t那如何提升效能跟增進公共利益是審計部向行政院提出建議要求確實改善的重要職責好不好?當我們行政院都在推動性別主流化的話我想我們審計部也要跟上那監察院也有不少專家但是委員講的那個審核報告要注意性別主流化我已經記進去了報告的專業意見那個您記得哪方面有問題嗎?\n753522\t780191\t你說說剛剛少子化就講我說順領結婚的我們但是我們是面相之一啦好少子化是一個例子這麼一個性別相關的你們的專業意見缺乏性別主流化另外一個是監督要有決算報告要有性別統計好那另外一個就是就是你們也針對行政院自己列出的性別預算性別預算我們會追蹤會考核好嗎至少三大問題\n781472\t787101\t謝謝委員 送我們來努力那我明年會繼續來監督一下給你們建議好不好歡迎委員監督我們謝謝沈記長謝謝 謝謝\n","txt":"主席好有請審計長麻煩再請陳審計長備選歡迎你好\n審計長好我想審計部在決算的審核上相當用心了我看了你們的報告就市政合規還有效能的部分那我想你們扮演很重要的那個角色那今天就是我有兩點建議希望審計部能夠納入考量\n讓我們的決算審核方向未來更完整那找出我們的政策還有實行執行的過程中可能的漏洞那希望那個沈記長能夠接納那首先我想先問一下沈記長有沒有聽過性別主流話有我以前啊都當過性別會的主流話什麼是性別主流話嗎可以簡單講一下什麼是性別主流話性別主流話就是大家性別平等吧\n是性別平等而已嗎?那為什麼要一個新名詞性別主流化?\n這個就沒有委員那麼專業了好那這個就拜託沈記長要能夠了解因為他是聯合國的重要方向也是我們政府的政策方向他是1997年聯合國經濟及社會理事會定義就是要求政府來做什麼評估所有的計畫的行動包含立法、政策方案對男女雙方不同的含義影響\n那就是要讓男女雙方受益均等就是政府有職責要落實性別平等所以主流化就是這個性別的議題在所有的政策中都應該是主流那因為政府扮演重要的角色那預算呢就是政府裡面重要的執行那給您看我們行政院性別平等處也有手冊教大家怎麼做因為內容蠻多的我就\n要能發展政策矯正不平等導致不平等的機制是所有政府部門都應該運用的策略施政團隊早在陳水扁擔任總統時就開始推動了\n同意\n所以統計是基本的如果你都看不出這個政策對性別的差異那你剛看到年齡、成相、身心的話其實是沒辦法做一個有效的政策工具就是性別分析就是你的政策譬如說前瞻對不同性別的影響你是做不出來了所以審計部的決算\n就應該要來審核這是我們行政院自己的方案有沒有落實那可不可以請問那個沈記長您覺得您目前你們生產的報告有沒有落實這個性別主流化呢如果從0分到100分您自己打幾分\n我們是其實這樣剛剛聽了委員的這個性別主流話我更加深入以前我都請我在我審計部現在請李安妮那個那個周清怡他們幫忙這方面但是在審核的這個部分\n我們是有去注意關注到但是沒有說向委員要這樣落實到一個題目出來那0到100分您給現在的報告內容差不多60分60分喔好啦我不知道您這是好還是不好以我來看是還沒到60分不過當然就是說也許就是我們的標準不一樣那我有三個建議第一個就是他有三大問題第一個\n行政院跟所屬部會其實有編列性別預算可是你們的決算報告裡面行政院決算報告裡面都沒有把這個決審的審核機制裡面都沒有納進去所以就是當時有編列性別預算可是沒有相關的決算報告那你們也沒有\n我剛講的性別主流化聯合國的六大工具裡面性別統計是最重要的\n如果統計都沒有的話我們就看不出來我們的政策執行的影響力我舉個例子給您看我這邊是衛福部的兒少自殺自殺死亡人口我們都知道自殺根據統計\n男性自殺率高於女性\n到這個決算整個政策的執行做得好不好那這是一個例子為什麼性別統計很重要那你們的第三個問題是你們的決算審核的報告以我來看您剛講的李安妮的確是專家希望可以多請教她就的確缺乏性別主流化的觀點你們很多的決算審查意見都非常好可是我舉個例子為什麼\n你們的報告沒有性別主流化觀點大家看到了我們少子化是我們預算的重要一個部分可是呢你們針對這個少子化預算執行中的專業意見是什麼育齡國人育五成未婚有待強化對未婚族群之關注政策鼓勵適齡結婚\n然後呢這是你們的方向我想少子化是全球普遍的議題那個主計長沈議長應該知道嘛那就是說人家解決的少子化的國家最好的是哪些您知不知道\n不知道哪些國家解決了少子化的問題本來日本是很低啦後來他有一段時間他有拉升上來韓國也是在建制很低迷現在都在解決但是日本也有提出樹林的問題\n如果我們只看日本跟韓國我們就是在一群低生育率的國家裡面相互學習目前能夠解決生育率的議題其實最好的是北歐國家因為他們找出正確的解方我剛剛還跟劉玉秀教授一起開記者會除了公托要普及之外我們的育嬰價要大改革\n做到婚育平衡這是國際共同解方\n不僅沒有一個性別平等的價值跟理解最重要的就是沒有性別主流化看到真正的問題好嗎聯合國2019年指出聯合國針對少子化有報告各位上網都可以查就是可以Download\n東亞尤其是台灣有指出台灣低生育率的原因是性別分工嚴重失衡女性被期待負擔照顧責任但是職涯與育兒難以兼顧所以省計部的建議缺乏性別主流化的觀點如果我們行政院依照你們的建議去做的話這個就是說是不會\n具體建議三點第一個\n要求各級政府單位決算中要納入性別統計重要關係人政策的重要關係人受益者要有性別統計第二個審核行政院自己列的性別預算的執行狀況第三個請你們的專業審核報告中納入性別主流化的觀點好不好\n好委員這個建議很好我們來做好謝謝那我相信你們可以找到很多專家願意幫你們就是說看如何改善那再來呢我還有另外一個意見就是剛剛的委員也有提到你們審核意見到底如何追蹤管考我知道你們很努力可是我從一個我關心的例子看到好像有點問題就是我長期監督教育部也很關心大專院校轉型跟退場\n111年的報告也指出：針對110年的考核意見：\n人代繼續改善經再研提審核意見通知前逃改善沈記長你們對部會預算執行改善成效不佳也只能這樣寫嗎?這樣有用嗎?\n氣而不捨來努力因為他維持到這一種也是他教育部比較重大的一個問題我是有點擔心因為我們是對沈記長期待很高那針對那個成效不彰的你們至少應該要寫得更強而有力一點吧\n每個政策委員的意見就是說尤其是這個教育的部分是國家對下一代人才的投資那退場的議題大家都非常的關心因為他影響到的是退場的教師的權益然後退場的學生的權益那教育部我們就已經有給他相關的工具在這裡的如果你們都看到做得不夠好的話那一定要更加嚴格好嗎因為你們是掌握各部會都很重視你們\n那所以呢最後我具體的建議強化監督各級政府施政跟究責就是說提供具體的施政建議那為國家把關資源做有效的運用那我想就是因為如果就是審計部你們看到部會做得不好的時候應該要善用自己的職權那通知表現不好機關的上級機關對不對\n如果教育部比如說高教師沒做好就要通知部長部長這邊如果都不聽的話你不就是應該要跟行政院長上級機關那也向監察院報告好嗎好謝謝委員的支持我們都會照委員的意思這是我們的主責\n那如何提升效能跟增進公共利益是審計部向行政院提出建議要求確實改善的重要職責好不好?當我們行政院都在推動性別主流化的話我想我們審計部也要跟上那監察院也有不少專家但是委員講的那個審核報告要注意性別主流化我已經記進去了報告的專業意見那個您記得哪方面有問題嗎?\n你說說剛剛少子化就講我說順領結婚的我們但是我們是面相之一啦好少子化是一個例子這麼一個性別相關的你們的專業意見缺乏性別主流化另外一個是監督要有決算報告要有性別統計好那另外一個就是就是你們也針對行政院自己列出的性別預算性別預算我們會追蹤會考核好嗎至少三大問題\n謝謝委員 送我們來努力那我明年會繼續來監督一下給你們建議好不好歡迎委員監督我們謝謝沈記長謝謝 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.154 --> 00:04.917\n主席好有請審計長麻煩再請陳審計長備選歡迎你好\n\n00:16.955 --> 00:35.815\n審計長好我想審計部在決算的審核上相當用心了我看了你們的報告就市政合規還有效能的部分那我想你們扮演很重要的那個角色那今天就是我有兩點建議希望審計部能夠納入考量\n\n00:36.375 --> 01:03.493\n讓我們的決算審核方向未來更完整那找出我們的政策還有實行執行的過程中可能的漏洞那希望那個沈記長能夠接納那首先我想先問一下沈記長有沒有聽過性別主流話有我以前啊都當過性別會的主流話什麼是性別主流話嗎可以簡單講一下什麼是性別主流話性別主流話就是大家性別平等吧\n\n01:04.950 --> 01:08.728\n是性別平等而已嗎?那為什麼要一個新名詞性別主流化?\n\n01:09.928 --> 01:35.845\n這個就沒有委員那麼專業了好那這個就拜託沈記長要能夠了解因為他是聯合國的重要方向也是我們政府的政策方向他是1997年聯合國經濟及社會理事會定義就是要求政府來做什麼評估所有的計畫的行動包含立法、政策方案對男女雙方不同的含義影響\n\n01:36.866 --> 02:05.766\n那就是要讓男女雙方受益均等就是政府有職責要落實性別平等所以主流化就是這個性別的議題在所有的政策中都應該是主流那因為政府扮演重要的角色那預算呢就是政府裡面重要的執行那給您看我們行政院性別平等處也有手冊教大家怎麼做因為內容蠻多的我就\n\n02:07.467 --> 02:17.675\n要能發展政策矯正不平等導致不平等的機制是所有政府部門都應該運用的策略施政團隊早在陳水扁擔任總統時就開始推動了\n\n02:22.899 --> 02:23.039\n同意\n\n02:45.194 --> 03:06.425\n所以統計是基本的如果你都看不出這個政策對性別的差異那你剛看到年齡、成相、身心的話其實是沒辦法做一個有效的政策工具就是性別分析就是你的政策譬如說前瞻對不同性別的影響你是做不出來了所以審計部的決算\n\n03:07.225 --> 03:24.922\n就應該要來審核這是我們行政院自己的方案有沒有落實那可不可以請問那個沈記長您覺得您目前你們生產的報告有沒有落實這個性別主流化呢如果從0分到100分您自己打幾分\n\n03:26.172 --> 03:43.643\n我們是其實這樣剛剛聽了委員的這個性別主流話我更加深入以前我都請我在我審計部現在請李安妮那個那個周清怡他們幫忙這方面但是在審核的這個部分\n\n03:44.804 --> 04:12.196\n我們是有去注意關注到但是沒有說向委員要這樣落實到一個題目出來那0到100分您給現在的報告內容差不多60分60分喔好啦我不知道您這是好還是不好以我來看是還沒到60分不過當然就是說也許就是我們的標準不一樣那我有三個建議第一個就是他有三大問題第一個\n\n04:13.917 --> 04:34.857\n行政院跟所屬部會其實有編列性別預算可是你們的決算報告裡面行政院決算報告裡面都沒有把這個決審的審核機制裡面都沒有納進去所以就是當時有編列性別預算可是沒有相關的決算報告那你們也沒有\n\n04:35.077 --> 04:36.799\n我剛講的性別主流化聯合國的六大工具裡面性別統計是最重要的\n\n04:55.037 --> 05:08.602\n如果統計都沒有的話我們就看不出來我們的政策執行的影響力我舉個例子給您看我這邊是衛福部的兒少自殺自殺死亡人口我們都知道自殺根據統計\n\n05:10.843 --> 05:12.885\n男性自殺率高於女性\n\n05:40.603 --> 06:07.139\n到這個決算整個政策的執行做得好不好那這是一個例子為什麼性別統計很重要那你們的第三個問題是你們的決算審核的報告以我來看您剛講的李安妮的確是專家希望可以多請教她就的確缺乏性別主流化的觀點你們很多的決算審查意見都非常好可是我舉個例子為什麼\n\n06:08.200 --> 06:29.682\n你們的報告沒有性別主流化觀點大家看到了我們少子化是我們預算的重要一個部分可是呢你們針對這個少子化預算執行中的專業意見是什麼育齡國人育五成未婚有待強化對未婚族群之關注政策鼓勵適齡結婚\n\n06:32.045 --> 06:47.160\n然後呢這是你們的方向我想少子化是全球普遍的議題那個主計長沈議長應該知道嘛那就是說人家解決的少子化的國家最好的是哪些您知不知道\n\n06:49.820 --> 07:08.285\n不知道哪些國家解決了少子化的問題本來日本是很低啦後來他有一段時間他有拉升上來韓國也是在建制很低迷現在都在解決但是日本也有提出樹林的問題\n\n07:09.545 --> 07:34.117\n如果我們只看日本跟韓國我們就是在一群低生育率的國家裡面相互學習目前能夠解決生育率的議題其實最好的是北歐國家因為他們找出正確的解方我剛剛還跟劉玉秀教授一起開記者會除了公托要普及之外我們的育嬰價要大改革\n\n07:34.617 --> 07:39.700\n做到婚育平衡這是國際共同解方\n\n07:58.092 --> 08:15.636\n不僅沒有一個性別平等的價值跟理解最重要的就是沒有性別主流化看到真正的問題好嗎聯合國2019年指出聯合國針對少子化有報告各位上網都可以查就是可以Download\n\n08:16.496 --> 08:38.242\n東亞尤其是台灣有指出台灣低生育率的原因是性別分工嚴重失衡女性被期待負擔照顧責任但是職涯與育兒難以兼顧所以省計部的建議缺乏性別主流化的觀點如果我們行政院依照你們的建議去做的話這個就是說是不會\n\n08:39.002 --> 08:39.542\n具體建議三點第一個\n\n08:55.636 --> 09:16.779\n要求各級政府單位決算中要納入性別統計重要關係人政策的重要關係人受益者要有性別統計第二個審核行政院自己列的性別預算的執行狀況第三個請你們的專業審核報告中納入性別主流化的觀點好不好\n\n09:17.139 --> 09:45.686\n好委員這個建議很好我們來做好謝謝那我相信你們可以找到很多專家願意幫你們就是說看如何改善那再來呢我還有另外一個意見就是剛剛的委員也有提到你們審核意見到底如何追蹤管考我知道你們很努力可是我從一個我關心的例子看到好像有點問題就是我長期監督教育部也很關心大專院校轉型跟退場\n\n09:46.226 --> 09:48.268\n111年的報告也指出：針對110年的考核意見：\n\n10:08.425 --> 10:22.678\n人代繼續改善經再研提審核意見通知前逃改善沈記長你們對部會預算執行改善成效不佳也只能這樣寫嗎?這樣有用嗎?\n\n10:26.590 --> 10:46.104\n氣而不捨來努力因為他維持到這一種也是他教育部比較重大的一個問題我是有點擔心因為我們是對沈記長期待很高那針對那個成效不彰的你們至少應該要寫得更強而有力一點吧\n\n10:46.824 --> 11:16.054\n每個政策委員的意見就是說尤其是這個教育的部分是國家對下一代人才的投資那退場的議題大家都非常的關心因為他影響到的是退場的教師的權益然後退場的學生的權益那教育部我們就已經有給他相關的工具在這裡的如果你們都看到做得不夠好的話那一定要更加嚴格好嗎因為你們是掌握各部會都很重視你們\n\n11:16.994 --> 11:43.574\n那所以呢最後我具體的建議強化監督各級政府施政跟究責就是說提供具體的施政建議那為國家把關資源做有效的運用那我想就是因為如果就是審計部你們看到部會做得不好的時候應該要善用自己的職權那通知表現不好機關的上級機關對不對\n\n11:46.317 --> 12:02.818\n如果教育部比如說高教師沒做好就要通知部長部長這邊如果都不聽的話你不就是應該要跟行政院長上級機關那也向監察院報告好嗎好謝謝委員的支持我們都會照委員的意思這是我們的主責\n\n12:03.799 --> 12:32.613\n那如何提升效能跟增進公共利益是審計部向行政院提出建議要求確實改善的重要職責好不好?當我們行政院都在推動性別主流化的話我想我們審計部也要跟上那監察院也有不少專家但是委員講的那個審核報告要注意性別主流化我已經記進去了報告的專業意見那個您記得哪方面有問題嗎?\n\n12:33.522 --> 13:00.191\n你說說剛剛少子化就講我說順領結婚的我們但是我們是面相之一啦好少子化是一個例子這麼一個性別相關的你們的專業意見缺乏性別主流化另外一個是監督要有決算報告要有性別統計好那另外一個就是就是你們也針對行政院自己列出的性別預算性別預算我們會追蹤會考核好嗎至少三大問題\n\n13:01.472 --> 13:07.101\n謝謝委員送我們來努力那我明年會繼續來監督一下給你們建議好不好歡迎委員監督我們謝謝沈記長謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.154,"end":4.917,"text":"主席好有請審計長麻煩再請陳審計長備選歡迎你好"},{"start":16.955,"end":35.815,"text":"審計長好我想審計部在決算的審核上相當用心了我看了你們的報告就市政合規還有效能的部分那我想你們扮演很重要的那個角色那今天就是我有兩點建議希望審計部能夠納入考量"},{"start":36.375,"end":63.493,"text":"讓我們的決算審核方向未來更完整那找出我們的政策還有實行執行的過程中可能的漏洞那希望那個沈記長能夠接納那首先我想先問一下沈記長有沒有聽過性別主流話有我以前啊都當過性別會的主流話什麼是性別主流話嗎可以簡單講一下什麼是性別主流話性別主流話就是大家性別平等吧"},{"start":64.95,"end":68.728,"text":"是性別平等而已嗎?那為什麼要一個新名詞性別主流化?"},{"start":69.928,"end":95.845,"text":"這個就沒有委員那麼專業了好那這個就拜託沈記長要能夠了解因為他是聯合國的重要方向也是我們政府的政策方向他是1997年聯合國經濟及社會理事會定義就是要求政府來做什麼評估所有的計畫的行動包含立法、政策方案對男女雙方不同的含義影響"},{"start":96.866,"end":125.766,"text":"那就是要讓男女雙方受益均等就是政府有職責要落實性別平等所以主流化就是這個性別的議題在所有的政策中都應該是主流那因為政府扮演重要的角色那預算呢就是政府裡面重要的執行那給您看我們行政院性別平等處也有手冊教大家怎麼做因為內容蠻多的我就"},{"start":127.467,"end":137.675,"text":"要能發展政策矯正不平等導致不平等的機制是所有政府部門都應該運用的策略施政團隊早在陳水扁擔任總統時就開始推動了"},{"start":142.899,"end":143.039,"text":"同意"},{"start":165.194,"end":186.425,"text":"所以統計是基本的如果你都看不出這個政策對性別的差異那你剛看到年齡、成相、身心的話其實是沒辦法做一個有效的政策工具就是性別分析就是你的政策譬如說前瞻對不同性別的影響你是做不出來了所以審計部的決算"},{"start":187.225,"end":204.922,"text":"就應該要來審核這是我們行政院自己的方案有沒有落實那可不可以請問那個沈記長您覺得您目前你們生產的報告有沒有落實這個性別主流化呢如果從0分到100分您自己打幾分"},{"start":206.172,"end":223.643,"text":"我們是其實這樣剛剛聽了委員的這個性別主流話我更加深入以前我都請我在我審計部現在請李安妮那個那個周清怡他們幫忙這方面但是在審核的這個部分"},{"start":224.804,"end":252.196,"text":"我們是有去注意關注到但是沒有說向委員要這樣落實到一個題目出來那0到100分您給現在的報告內容差不多60分60分喔好啦我不知道您這是好還是不好以我來看是還沒到60分不過當然就是說也許就是我們的標準不一樣那我有三個建議第一個就是他有三大問題第一個"},{"start":253.917,"end":274.857,"text":"行政院跟所屬部會其實有編列性別預算可是你們的決算報告裡面行政院決算報告裡面都沒有把這個決審的審核機制裡面都沒有納進去所以就是當時有編列性別預算可是沒有相關的決算報告那你們也沒有"},{"start":275.077,"end":276.799,"text":"我剛講的性別主流化聯合國的六大工具裡面性別統計是最重要的"},{"start":295.037,"end":308.602,"text":"如果統計都沒有的話我們就看不出來我們的政策執行的影響力我舉個例子給您看我這邊是衛福部的兒少自殺自殺死亡人口我們都知道自殺根據統計"},{"start":310.843,"end":312.885,"text":"男性自殺率高於女性"},{"start":340.603,"end":367.139,"text":"到這個決算整個政策的執行做得好不好那這是一個例子為什麼性別統計很重要那你們的第三個問題是你們的決算審核的報告以我來看您剛講的李安妮的確是專家希望可以多請教她就的確缺乏性別主流化的觀點你們很多的決算審查意見都非常好可是我舉個例子為什麼"},{"start":368.2,"end":389.682,"text":"你們的報告沒有性別主流化觀點大家看到了我們少子化是我們預算的重要一個部分可是呢你們針對這個少子化預算執行中的專業意見是什麼育齡國人育五成未婚有待強化對未婚族群之關注政策鼓勵適齡結婚"},{"start":392.045,"end":407.16,"text":"然後呢這是你們的方向我想少子化是全球普遍的議題那個主計長沈議長應該知道嘛那就是說人家解決的少子化的國家最好的是哪些您知不知道"},{"start":409.82,"end":428.285,"text":"不知道哪些國家解決了少子化的問題本來日本是很低啦後來他有一段時間他有拉升上來韓國也是在建制很低迷現在都在解決但是日本也有提出樹林的問題"},{"start":429.545,"end":454.117,"text":"如果我們只看日本跟韓國我們就是在一群低生育率的國家裡面相互學習目前能夠解決生育率的議題其實最好的是北歐國家因為他們找出正確的解方我剛剛還跟劉玉秀教授一起開記者會除了公托要普及之外我們的育嬰價要大改革"},{"start":454.617,"end":459.7,"text":"做到婚育平衡這是國際共同解方"},{"start":478.092,"end":495.636,"text":"不僅沒有一個性別平等的價值跟理解最重要的就是沒有性別主流化看到真正的問題好嗎聯合國2019年指出聯合國針對少子化有報告各位上網都可以查就是可以Download"},{"start":496.496,"end":518.242,"text":"東亞尤其是台灣有指出台灣低生育率的原因是性別分工嚴重失衡女性被期待負擔照顧責任但是職涯與育兒難以兼顧所以省計部的建議缺乏性別主流化的觀點如果我們行政院依照你們的建議去做的話這個就是說是不會"},{"start":519.002,"end":519.542,"text":"具體建議三點第一個"},{"start":535.636,"end":556.779,"text":"要求各級政府單位決算中要納入性別統計重要關係人政策的重要關係人受益者要有性別統計第二個審核行政院自己列的性別預算的執行狀況第三個請你們的專業審核報告中納入性別主流化的觀點好不好"},{"start":557.139,"end":585.686,"text":"好委員這個建議很好我們來做好謝謝那我相信你們可以找到很多專家願意幫你們就是說看如何改善那再來呢我還有另外一個意見就是剛剛的委員也有提到你們審核意見到底如何追蹤管考我知道你們很努力可是我從一個我關心的例子看到好像有點問題就是我長期監督教育部也很關心大專院校轉型跟退場"},{"start":586.226,"end":588.268,"text":"111年的報告也指出：針對110年的考核意見："},{"start":608.425,"end":622.678,"text":"人代繼續改善經再研提審核意見通知前逃改善沈記長你們對部會預算執行改善成效不佳也只能這樣寫嗎?這樣有用嗎?"},{"start":626.59,"end":646.104,"text":"氣而不捨來努力因為他維持到這一種也是他教育部比較重大的一個問題我是有點擔心因為我們是對沈記長期待很高那針對那個成效不彰的你們至少應該要寫得更強而有力一點吧"},{"start":646.824,"end":676.054,"text":"每個政策委員的意見就是說尤其是這個教育的部分是國家對下一代人才的投資那退場的議題大家都非常的關心因為他影響到的是退場的教師的權益然後退場的學生的權益那教育部我們就已經有給他相關的工具在這裡的如果你們都看到做得不夠好的話那一定要更加嚴格好嗎因為你們是掌握各部會都很重視你們"},{"start":676.994,"end":703.574,"text":"那所以呢最後我具體的建議強化監督各級政府施政跟究責就是說提供具體的施政建議那為國家把關資源做有效的運用那我想就是因為如果就是審計部你們看到部會做得不好的時候應該要善用自己的職權那通知表現不好機關的上級機關對不對"},{"start":706.317,"end":722.818,"text":"如果教育部比如說高教師沒做好就要通知部長部長這邊如果都不聽的話你不就是應該要跟行政院長上級機關那也向監察院報告好嗎好謝謝委員的支持我們都會照委員的意思這是我們的主責"},{"start":723.799,"end":752.613,"text":"那如何提升效能跟增進公共利益是審計部向行政院提出建議要求確實改善的重要職責好不好?當我們行政院都在推動性別主流化的話我想我們審計部也要跟上那監察院也有不少專家但是委員講的那個審核報告要注意性別主流化我已經記進去了報告的專業意見那個您記得哪方面有問題嗎?"},{"start":753.522,"end":780.191,"text":"你說說剛剛少子化就講我說順領結婚的我們但是我們是面相之一啦好少子化是一個例子這麼一個性別相關的你們的專業意見缺乏性別主流化另外一個是監督要有決算報告要有性別統計好那另外一個就是就是你們也針對行政院自己列出的性別預算性別預算我們會追蹤會考核好嗎至少三大問題"},{"start":781.472,"end":787.101,"text":"謝謝委員 送我們來努力那我明年會繼續來監督一下給你們建議好不好歡迎委員監督我們謝謝沈記長謝謝 謝謝"}]}}}}