{"id":150847,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150847","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fc21f7c3537a1ddbd3da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a61e0ef36d357a05ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"14:30:29 - 14:45:53","影片長度":"00:15:24","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":924,"end_time":"2024-04-02T14:45:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T14:30:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":760,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（14時30分）主席，有請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：審計長好。首先，我覺得審計部的決算審核就像一面照妖鏡，讓政府敗壞財政紀律現形，這一點我是肯定審計部的報告，能夠幫忙我們抓政府的財政以及各方面的漏洞，也好讓立法院來協助補強，所以先謝謝審計長跟審計部。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這是我們的職責，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：好。審計長，你口頭報告有提到中央政府一年以上債務未償餘額是5兆6,997億元，這個數字換算下來，國人每人平均背負國債25萬，蔡英文政府任內特別預算經費高達2.4兆元，多項執行期間都是到下任政府。請問審計長，這算不算是另外一種債留子孫呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：整個預算的制度是這樣，如果通過了這個預算，會保留繼續延下去，是這樣的一個情境。"],["羅委員智強：是。當然蔡總統是否認債留子孫，說他任內只增加了四千多億債務，但本席認為這只是話術而已，為什麼呢？因為蔡政府舉債的預算數確實是最高的，因為特別預算分年編列，加上稅收成長，債務還本提高，使得舉債的帳面數字比較好看，但是只要稅收不如預期，債務就會失控。而且將鉅額且未來可能會有的計畫預算全數編列進特別預算，並且對外宣稱年年賸餘財政很健康，這個我認為其實就是欺騙人民，而且無視財政紀律。","我看過109年度監察院的報告曾指出，我國特別預算之編列有常態化的現象，中央政府恐有將部分支出隱藏於前瞻計畫特別預算，造成年度（109）總預算財政收支平衡之假象。想請教審計長，你認同這一份報告裡面的說法嗎？特別預算常態化對未來財政造成的影響會是什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們是希望在編特別預算的時候要持審慎的態度。"],["羅委員智強：對，像我們現在特別預算照監察院之前的報告，已經有常態化的現象，這常態化的現象對我們財政紀律的影響是什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個要看有沒有財源，這個預算該不該編可能還是比較重要，因為一個建設會創造國家的一些效能、效益，所以我是比較希望計畫要考慮、評估得比較慎重一點。"],["羅委員智強：我跟審計長說明一下，其實也不只是償債的問題，事實上特別預算對行政機關而言也是便宜行事，當然它可能也是比較方便，所以便宜行事，也比較容易逃避監督。換言之，特別預算不是不可以，但是如果浮濫編列、常態化地去編列的話，當然會對財政紀律造成衝擊，所以這一點我想也是要提醒一下行政部門，不要把特別預算好像當作自己非常方便使用的私房錢的概念。而立法院之所以存在常態化的預算監督，其實為的就是使錢能夠用在刀口上、能夠透明化，讓全民檢驗預算的合理性，這點我不知道審計長您認同嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我認同。"],["羅委員智強：好。蔡總統說前瞻計畫的目標是讓國家建設更多、更快、更貼近民眾的需求，所以讓城鄉建設可以做得更好，但是依照審計部的決算報告，前瞻第3期特別預算的分支計畫有超過六成位於特別預算執行期間完成，其中軌道建設部分的第3期特別預算實現率只有65.1%、其中有10項計畫甚至沒有實現數，主要是因為沒有經過行政院核定。那我想請教審計長是否有印象這10項所謂沒有實現數的計畫是哪些呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：非常抱歉，我手上沒有這個資料，但是我們的同仁整體有這些資料，因為大部分像是嘉義市的高架評估等，這些各方面沒有實現數，因為軌道建設涉及的很多，要經過計畫評估、可行性評估等各方面，還有細部的評估都是要很慎重。"],["羅委員智強：好，我跟審計長補充，其中兩項我也特別關切，臺中捷運藍線以及臺中捷運綠線延伸彰化的這兩項計畫都是報告中所指無實現數的計畫，藍線跟綠線延伸都在2017年納入前瞻計畫，直到今年選後才分別獲得行政院核定綜合計畫、可行性研究，實際上我覺得審計部的報告很公允，算是客觀還原實際的情況。但是你也知道之前臺中方面，很多人在吵到底是誰在卡臺中的捷運，我覺得這上面很清楚啊！10項的未實現數有兩項是臺中的捷運藍線跟綠線延伸，行政院根本在這個部分實際上沒有積極作為，所以誰卡地方建設？我倒覺得從審計部的報告當中可以看得很清楚。","接下來我要看看中央對地方補助的部分，依照審計部報告，截至111年底中央主管機關核定計畫總經費總共是9,900億元左右，核定的補助總數是5,358億4,202萬元，請問審計長知道哪個縣市獲得的補助是最多？六都裡面誰是最少的？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：核定的補助是高雄市最多，有一千兩百多億；實際上撥補的是新北市比較多；六都中臺中是少的，但是剛剛委員有講，這兩個計畫核定下去，臺中已經躍升核定補助的九百多億。"],["羅委員智強：我看到的部分，我講的是六都，六都目前臺北市是最少，臺北市是184億；高雄獲得中央核定是1,265億、自籌是810億元，占總經費的39%。臺北市今天不僅只有高雄市的尾數而已！事實上在六都排名最後、全國排名第九，而且80%的經費都要自籌。所以這就是外界疑惑為什麼中央對地方的補助五千三百多億，核定高雄就1,265億，將近四分之一，這核定的基準也難免讓外界有一些疑問，難道今天是看顏色來撥補嗎？","所以我也希望今天透過審計部的報告給我們的國人以及行政機關一個警訊啦！就是也要顧及各個縣市的建設需求，當然不是說不能夠撥補、不能夠核定補助，可是你的分配如此懸殊，單一縣市就占掉將近四分之一，然後其他縣市，比如臺中也只有兩百多億啊，然後臺北市是184億，這樣一個數字出來的時候，當然對於其他縣市的民眾可能就會有一種厚此薄彼的感覺嘛，我不知道審計長覺得呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為建設有前有後啦，臺北市的捷運是做在比較前面，但是高雄正在興建，而臺中的部分都在規劃中或者送核定中，所以會產生有差別的情況，但是一般都希望按照計畫的情形來核定補助。"],["羅委員智強：審計部報告當中也有提到前瞻計畫地方政府自籌是4,542億，占總經費的45.88%，地方已經編列的預算只有1,514億，只占中央核定自籌經費的33%，尚有鉅額的經費要於以後的年度繼續籌編，各縣市在既定有限的預算資源之下，為了籌編分擔款，將排擠其他計畫財源之籌措。我這是稍微回憶一下剛剛審計長你講的，投入的經費核定是一回事，實際上我們也看到關於自籌的部分，我剛才前面講了，高雄的自籌相對來講獲得比較好的分配，他自籌的比例比較低，但是臺北市的自籌，我看到數字就是將近八成，所以我講的不只是絕對的數字，也包括所謂自籌的分配，所以兩相比較起來，當然我必須講，即便今天很多人說哪些縣市可能有發展比較早、比較快或他財源比較充裕的情形，可是我剛剛也講了，光臺中來講就不是這一回事，你可以講臺北跟高雄有一個落差，但臺中跟高雄我不認為有什麼太大的落差，當然剛剛審計長講到那是因為行政院核定的狀況，這就是問題之所在嘛，所以才會有人質疑說，今天搞了半天，你卡住臺中的建設，你在行政院的部分，你核定並不積極、你沒有積極地幫助臺中市，連帶就影響到剛剛審計長講的前瞻經費的撥補或是補助的核定，也產生連動的影響，這些不是都是相關的嗎？我不知道審計長怎麼看呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，這個會產生一些相關。"],["羅委員智強：好，我想再請教前瞻建設中八大建設之一的食品安全，總共編列30億元的預算，可是對照今天食安事件頻傳，我是不太清楚我們食安的預算到底是花在什麼地方，有沒有發揮它實際的功效？我舉幾個具體的數字給審計長參考，我在質詢陳建仁院長的時候曾經有問過、請教他兩個問題，其實坦白講我是有點失望，因為那時候他說蔡英文政府的食安表現遠遠好過馬英九政府時候的食安表現，當時他舉出的數字只有1個，他說因為陳院長跟蔡總統主政之下，我們的系統性食安問題只有2件，蔡英文政府只有2件，所以食安做得真的是非常的棒，結果呢？他講完之後，審計長知道發生什麼事情嗎？就蘇丹紅。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：蘇丹紅事件。"],["羅委員智強：對，是他在報告食安的時候，我都說陳建仁是烏鴉嘴，他才誇口自己系統性食安問題最少，結果講的當下蘇丹紅就爆發，不到幾天我問衛福部部長，薛部長就直接承認蘇丹紅就是系統性食安問題，第二個也很離譜，我覺得我們陳建仁院長真的是個烏鴉嘴，你知道嗎？為什麼？因為我就問他我不太理解我們院長的報告一直說自己的食安做得好棒棒，馬政府做得很差勁，結果呢？我看到食品中毒的人數，蔡英文執政這八年比馬英九執政這八年竟然每年多400人，八年算下來都快要多三千多人啦！","我想請教我們院長，我看到食品中毒人數暴增，他怎麼會覺得他的食安做得比較好呢？審計長你知道陳建仁院長怎麼回答我，你知道嗎？你不知道啦！你一定不知道啦！他說食品中毒不是食安問題，他還不只講一次，我在質詢時，他一直插話跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題，結果我後來再去質詢薛部長，我就不服氣啊！我說食品中毒怎麼會不是食安問題？吃到肚子裡可能使健康受損，甚至可能奪取人命，怎麼不是食安問題？薛部長就很誠實啊！直接跟我講食品中毒就是食安問題，我一個月前質疑我們政府食品中毒的管制做不好，結果院長跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題，請問最近發生什麼事情？審計長，發生什麼事情？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有寶林的事件。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，寶林事件啊，鬧出人命來，所以我要講的是，今天我們政府預算也給你啦，就像審計部報告講的，編列30億元的預算給你了。我想請問，到底現在政府對於食安的部分，我們給你預算、給你經費，你有把食安做好嗎？我不知道審計長怎麼看，你們自己在審核過程當中，政府對於食安的這件事情，真的有做到所有該做的事情嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們有從食安五環裡面的源頭管理，各方面都給相關單位一些審核意見，希望他們去重視。"],["羅委員智強：好，非常謝謝審計長。以上，感謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員智強的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第12號洪委員申翰詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政\n府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告（中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30\n日）」審核經過並備諮詢－詢答完畢－","agenda_id":"1131801_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"150847","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","dat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753.832, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 753.832, \"end\": 753.972, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 753.972, \"end\": 754.473, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 754.473, \"end\": 754.633, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 754.633, \"end\": 754.753, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 754.753, \"end\": 754.813, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 754.813, \"end\": 754.973, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 754.973, \"end\": 755.113, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 755.113, \"end\": 755.253, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 755.253, \"end\": 755.473, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 755.473, \"end\": 755.634, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 755.634, \"end\": 755.654, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 757.649, \"end\": 769.788, \"text\": \"蘇丹鴻事件對,施安在報告食安的時候我都說陳建仁是烏鴉嘴阿他才誇口質疑食安系有性食安問題最少結果講的當下蘇丹鴻就爆發\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"蘇\"}, {\"word\": \"丹\", \"start\": 757.649, \"end\": 758.731, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"鴻\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 758.731, \"end\": 758.871, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 758.871, \"end\": 759.592, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 759.592, \"end\": 759.733, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 759.733, \"end\": 759.893, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 759.893, \"end\": 760.314, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 760.314, \"end\": 760.614, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"食\", \"start\": 760.614, \"end\": 760.754, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 760.754, \"end\": 760.915, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 760.915, \"end\": 761.275, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 761.275, \"end\": 761.716, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 761.716, \"end\": 761.816, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 761.816, \"end\": 762.076, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 762.076, \"end\": 762.217, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"仁\", \"start\": 762.217, \"end\": 762.397, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 762.397, \"end\": 762.898, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"烏\"}, {\"word\": \"鴉\"}, {\"word\": \"嘴\", \"start\": 762.898, \"end\": 763.118, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"阿\", \"start\": 763.118, \"end\": 763.979, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 763.979, \"end\": 764.16, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 764.16, \"end\": 764.32, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"誇\"}, {\"word\": \"口\", \"start\": 764.32, \"end\": 764.821, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"疑\", \"start\": 764.821, \"end\": 765.101, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"食\", \"start\": 765.101, \"end\": 765.221, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 765.221, \"end\": 765.802, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 765.802, \"end\": 765.962, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 765.962, \"end\": 766.083, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 766.083, \"end\": 766.263, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"食\", \"start\": 766.263, \"end\": 766.363, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 766.363, \"end\": 766.844, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 766.844, \"end\": 767.164, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 767.164, \"end\": 768.106, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 768.106, \"end\": 768.506, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 768.506, \"end\": 768.887, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 768.887, \"end\": 769.247, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"蘇\"}, {\"word\": \"丹\", \"start\": 769.247, \"end\": 769.568, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"鴻\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 769.568, \"end\": 769.768, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"爆\", \"start\": 769.768, \"end\": 769.788, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"發\"}]}, {\"start\": 771.26, \"end\": 792.651, \"text\": \"不到幾天我問薛部長就直接承認蘇丹紅就是系統性食安的問題那第二個也很離譜啊我覺得真的我們陳建業院長真的是個烏鴉嘴你知道嗎為什麼因為我就問他說我不太理解我們的院長的報告一直說自己的食安做得好棒棒嘛政府做得很差勁\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 771.26, \"end\": 771.38, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 771.38, \"end\": 771.8, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 771.8, \"end\": 772.301, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 772.301, \"end\": 773.841, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"薛\", \"start\": 773.841, \"end\": 774.062, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 774.062, \"end\": 774.342, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 774.342, \"end\": 774.482, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 778.304, \"end\": 778.404, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 778.404, \"end\": 779.004, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 779.004, \"end\": 779.104, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 779.104, \"end\": 779.644, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"離\"}, {\"word\": \"譜\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 779.644, \"end\": 780.325, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 780.325, \"end\": 780.445, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 780.445, \"end\": 781.045, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 781.045, \"end\": 781.145, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 781.145, \"end\": 781.205, \"score\": 0.672}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 781.205, \"end\": 781.525, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 781.525, \"end\": 781.666, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 781.666, \"end\": 782.026, 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{\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 785.288, \"end\": 786.208, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 786.208, \"end\": 786.328, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 786.328, \"end\": 786.408, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 786.408, \"end\": 786.628, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 786.628, \"end\": 786.868, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 786.868, \"end\": 787.269, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 787.269, \"end\": 787.569, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 787.569, \"end\": 788.349, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 788.349, \"end\": 788.689, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 788.689, \"end\": 789.05, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 789.05, \"end\": 789.23, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 789.23, \"end\": 789.31, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 789.31, \"end\": 789.95, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 789.95, \"end\": 790.11, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 790.11, \"end\": 790.25, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 790.25, \"end\": 790.49, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"食\", \"start\": 790.49, \"end\": 790.61, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 790.61, \"end\": 790.83, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 790.83, \"end\": 790.951, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 790.951, \"end\": 791.051, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 791.051, \"end\": 791.271, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"棒\", \"start\": 791.271, \"end\": 791.491, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"棒\", \"start\": 791.491, \"end\": 791.711, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 791.711, \"end\": 791.891, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 791.891, \"end\": 792.091, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 792.091, \"end\": 792.231, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 792.231, \"end\": 792.351, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 792.351, \"end\": 792.431, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 792.431, \"end\": 792.631, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 792.631, \"end\": 792.651, \"score\": 0.504}, {\"word\": \"勁\"}]}, {\"start\": 793.992, \"end\": 818.939, \"text\": \"結果呢我看到食品中毒的人數竟然每年蔡英文執政這八年比馬英九執政那八年每年多四百人八年算起來都快要三千多人啊那我想請教我們院長說那請問我看食品中毒人數暴增你怎麼會覺得你的食安做得比較好呢主要你知道我們的陳靜安院長怎麼回答我你知道嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 793.992, \"end\": 794.152, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 794.152, \"end\": 794.352, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 794.352, \"end\": 794.492, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 794.492, \"end\": 794.632, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 794.632, \"end\": 794.892, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"食\", \"start\": 794.892, \"end\": 795.072, 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901.811, \"end\": 901.971, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"途\", \"start\": 901.971, \"end\": 902.211, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 902.211, \"end\": 902.411, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 902.411, \"end\": 902.591, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 902.591, \"end\": 902.732, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 902.732, \"end\": 902.892, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 902.892, \"end\": 903.552, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 903.552, \"end\": 904.433, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 904.433, \"end\": 904.953, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 904.953, \"end\": 905.414, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 905.414, \"end\": 905.534, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 905.534, \"end\": 906.034, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 906.034, \"end\": 906.234, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 906.234, \"end\": 906.795, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 906.795, \"end\": 906.955, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 906.955, \"end\": 907.155, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 907.155, \"end\": 907.515, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 907.515, \"end\": 907.775, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 907.775, \"end\": 908.776, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 908.776, \"end\": 909.417, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 909.417, \"end\": 909.757, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 909.757, \"end\": 910.077, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"沈\", \"start\": 910.077, \"end\": 910.477, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"紀\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 910.477, \"end\": 910.578, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 910.578, \"end\": 911.018, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 911.018, \"end\": 911.098, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"樓\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 911.098, \"end\": 911.138, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"志\", \"start\": 911.138, \"end\": 911.278, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 911.278, \"end\": 913.22, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 913.22, \"end\": 913.36, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"沈\", \"start\": 913.36, \"end\": 913.48, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"紀\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 913.48, \"end\": 913.5, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 913.5, \"end\": 913.52, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 913.52, \"end\": 913.54, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 913.54, \"end\": 913.56, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"登\", \"start\": 913.56, \"end\": 913.6, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 913.6, \"end\": 913.78, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"紅\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 913.78, \"end\": 914.2, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 914.2, \"end\": 914.36, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"翰\", \"start\": 914.36, \"end\": 914.381, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,987 --> 00:00:32,328\n委員好沈議長好首先我覺得審計部的決算審核就像一面照妖鏡把政府敗壞財政紀律現行那這一點我是肯定我們審計部的一個報告能夠幫忙我們抓政府的財政以及各方面的一個漏洞也好讓立法院來協助補強所以先謝謝沈議長跟審計部\n\n2\n00:00:36,550 --> 00:00:44,381\n這是我們的主軸謝謝那沈記長你口頭報告有提到中央政府一年以上債務未償餘額是5兆6997億元對不對\n\n3\n00:00:48,769 --> 00:01:10,163\n那這個數字換算下來﹐國人每年每人平均背負國債25萬那蔡英文政府任內特別預算經費高達2.4兆元那許多的執行期間都是到下任政府請問沈記長這算不算是另外一種債留子孫呢\n\n4\n00:01:12,475 --> 00:01:22,684\n這個整個預算的注度是這樣的沒有他會再如果通過了這個預算他會保留繼續延下去有這樣的一個情境是好\n\n5\n00:01:23,622 --> 00:01:44,328\n當然蔡總統是否認債留子孫說他任內只增加了4000多億債務但本席認為這只是話術而已為什麼呢因為蔡政府舉債的預算數確實是最高的因此因為特別預算分年編列加上稅收成長債務還本提高\n\n6\n00:01:45,329 --> 00:02:05,895\n使得舉債的帳面數字比較好看但是只要稅收不如預期債務就會失控而且將巨額且未來可能會有的計劃預算全數編列進特別預算並且對外宣稱年年勝於財政很健康這我認為其實就是欺騙人民而且無視財政紀律\n\n7\n00:02:07,335 --> 00:02:33,135\n那我看過過去就是109年度監察院的報告曾指出我國特別預算之編列有常態化的現象中央政府恐有將部分支出隱藏於前瞻計劃特別預算造成年度然後總預算財政收支平衡之假象那想請教\n\n8\n00:02:34,296 --> 00:03:00,800\n沈記長你認同這一份報告裡面的說法嗎那特別預算常態化對未來財政造成的影響會是什麼這一個我們是希望在編特別預算的時候要出損勝的態度對那像我們現在特別預算照這個監察院的之前的報告已經有常態化的現象這常態化的現象對我們財政機率的影響是什麼\n\n9\n00:03:02,346 --> 00:03:30,475\n這個要看相對的有沒有財源這個整個是不是這個預算該不該編可能還是比較重要因為一個建設他會創造國家的一些效能效益所以我是比較常希望那個計畫要考慮在評估的比較順中一點我跟沈縣長說明一下其實中間也不只是常在的問題\n\n10\n00:03:31,741 --> 00:03:57,077\n事實上特別預算對行政機關也有變異形式當然它可能也是比較方便所以帶有變異形式也比較容易逃避監督所以換言之特別預算不是不可以但是如果腐爛編列常態化的去編列的話當然會對財政機率造成衝擊所以這一點的話是我想說也是要提醒一下我們行政部門不要\n\n11\n00:03:58,138 --> 00:04:19,487\n把特別預算當作自己好像是非常方便使用的私房錢一樣的概念那立法院之所以存在常態化的預算監督其實為的就是使錢能夠用在刀口之上能夠透明化讓全民來去檢驗預算的合理性嘛這點我不知道沈記長您認同嗎這我認同好\n\n12\n00:04:21,684 --> 00:04:39,333\n那麼當然其實蔡總統說啦他說前瞻計畫的目標是讓國家建設更多更快更貼近民眾的需求所以讓城鄉建設可以做得更好但是我看到依照我們審計部的決算報告前瞻第三期特別預算的分支計畫\n\n13\n00:04:40,313 --> 00:05:08,706\n有超過6成位於特別預算執行期間完成其中軌道建設部分第三期特別預算的實現率只有65.1%其中10項計畫甚至沒有實現數主要是因為也沒有經過行政院核定我想請教沈記長有印象這10項所謂的沒有實現數的計畫是哪些呢\n\n14\n00:05:10,911 --> 00:05:37,485\n非常抱歉我手上沒有這個資料但是我們的同仁我們的整個有這些資料因為大部分都是在做像那個嘉義市的那個高價評估啦各方面這些他沒有沒有實現是因為軌道的建設啊涉及的很多啦那個要經過計畫評估口型性的評估各方面啦他還有細部的評估啊他都是要很慎重\n\n15\n00:05:39,045 --> 00:06:07,264\n我跟沈記長補充其中兩項我也特別關切了就是臺中捷運藍線以及臺中捷運綠線延伸彰化這兩項計畫都是報告中所指無時限數的計畫那個藍線跟綠線延伸都在2017年納入前瞻計畫直到今年選後才分別獲得行政院合併綜合計畫可行性研究\n\n16\n00:06:08,124 --> 00:06:32,310\n實際上我覺得省紀部的報告很公允雖然也是客觀還原實際的情況但是你也知道之前這個台中的方面很多人在吵到底是誰在卡台中的捷運我覺得這上面很清楚十項的未實現數有兩項是台中的捷運藍線跟綠線延伸行政院根本在這個部分實際上是處在一個\n\n17\n00:06:33,030 --> 00:06:49,338\n沒有積極作為的地方所以誰卡地方建設我倒是覺得從省紀部的報告當中卻看得很清楚那接下來我要看看中央對地方補助的部分依照省紀部報告截至111年底中央主管機關合訂計劃總經費總共是9900億元左右\n\n18\n00:06:56,502 --> 00:06:58,424\n那核定的補助總數是5358億4202萬元請問沈記長你知道哪個縣市獲得的這個補助是最多哪個縣市六都裡面誰是最少的\n\n19\n00:07:12,996 --> 00:07:29,090\n合訂的補製合訂的補製是高雄市最多一千兩百多億實際上撥補的是新北市是比較多的那六都中台中是少的\n\n20\n00:07:30,350 --> 00:07:49,257\n但是剛剛委員有講這兩個計畫合併下去台中已經躍升合併補助的900多億我看到的部分我講是六都六都目前台北市是最少台北市是184億那高雄合併獲得中央是1265億那自籌是810億元佔總經費的39%台北市不只是今天只有\n\n21\n00:07:59,585 --> 00:08:07,299\n高雄市的尾數而已事實上在六都排名最後全國排名第九而且80%的經費都要自籌\n\n22\n00:08:10,083 --> 00:08:36,261\n所以這是外界其實對於所謂的到底為什麼今天我們中央對地方的補助5300多億你核定高雄就1265億將近四分之一這核定的基準也難免讓外界有一些疑問說難道是今天是看顏色來撥補嗎所以我也希望說今天透過審計部的報告我希望給我們的國人以及行政機關一個警訊\n\n23\n00:08:38,743 --> 00:08:57,001\n就是說也要顧及說今天各個縣市的建設需求當然不是說不能夠撥補而不能夠核定補助可是你的分配如此懸殊單一縣市就佔掉了相近四分之一然後呢其他縣台中也只有兩百多億啊\n\n24\n00:08:57,802 --> 00:09:08,549\n然後呢台北市是184億那這樣的一個數字出來的時候當然對於其他縣市的民眾可能就會有一種厚恥薄彼的感覺嘛我不知道沈記長覺得呢\n\n25\n00:09:10,509 --> 00:09:35,054\n因為建設有前有後臺北市的捷運是坐在指標前面但是高雄正在興建所以會有產生那台中的部分他都在規劃中或者送合訂中所以會有產生這個有差別的情況但是一般都希望都按照計劃的情形來合訂補助\n\n26\n00:09:36,981 --> 00:09:41,983\n審計部告告當中又提到,前瞻計劃地方政府自籌4542億,佔總經費45.88%,地方已經編列預算只有1514億,只佔中央合併自籌經費的33%。\n\n27\n00:09:57,370 --> 00:10:12,025\n上有巨額的經費要於以後年度繼續籌編：那各縣是在既定有限的預算資源之下：為了籌編分擔款：將排擠其他計劃財源之籌措：這是剛剛我再稍微回應一下剛剛主計長您講的\n\n28\n00:10:13,607 --> 00:10:31,589\n投入的經費的核定是一回事實際上我們也看到關於自籌的部分我剛才前面講了高雄的自籌相對來講獲得比較好的分配它自籌的比例比較低但是台北市的話自籌我看到數字就是將近八成\n\n29\n00:10:32,210 --> 00:10:59,333\n所以我講的也不只是絕對的數字也包括所謂自籌的這樣的一個分配所以兩相比較起來當然我是必須講說即便說今天很多人拿說哪些縣市的這個發展可能它比較有所謂的發展比較早比較快或它財源比較充裕可是我剛才就講了光台中來講就不是這一回事你可以講台北跟高雄你說有一個落差但台中跟高雄我不認為有什麼太大的落差\n\n30\n00:11:00,715 --> 00:11:20,315\n當然剛剛主席講到說那是因為行政院這個合併的狀況這就是問題之所在所以常常有人質疑說今天搞了半天你卡住台中的建設你在行政院的部分你合併並不積極你沒有積極的幫助台中市的時候那連帶就影響到連剛剛主席講的這個前瞻的經費的\n\n31\n00:11:23,358 --> 00:11:45,718\n撥補或是補助的合定也產生連動的影響這些不是都是相關的嗎我不知道主席想怎麼看對這個是會產生一些相關我再想請教前瞻建設的八大建設之一的食品安全然後總共編列30億元的預算可是對照今天食安事件頻傳\n\n32\n00:11:47,455 --> 00:12:15,157\n那我是不太清楚我們的食安的這個預算到底是花在什麼樣的地方有沒有發揮它實際的功效我舉幾個具體的數字也給沈記長參考我在質詢陳建仁院長的時候曾經有問過請教他過兩個問題其實坦白講我是有點失望因為那時候他在講說他的蔡英文政府的食安表現遠遠的好過馬英九政府時候的食安表現\n\n33\n00:12:16,078 --> 00:12:35,654\n他只要舉出的數字只有一個啦他說因為這個陳院長跟蔡總統主政之下我們的系統性食安問題只有兩件蔡英文政府只有兩件所以食安做得真的是非常的棒結果呢他講完之後主席長你知道發生什麼事情嗎\n\n34\n00:12:37,649 --> 00:12:49,788\n蘇丹鴻事件對,施安在報告食安的時候我都說陳建仁是烏鴉嘴阿他才誇口質疑食安系有性食安問題最少結果講的當下蘇丹鴻就爆發\n\n35\n00:12:51,260 --> 00:13:12,651\n不到幾天我問薛部長就直接承認蘇丹紅就是系統性食安的問題那第二個也很離譜啊我覺得真的我們陳建業院長真的是個烏鴉嘴你知道嗎為什麼因為我就問他說我不太理解我們的院長的報告一直說自己的食安做得好棒棒嘛政府做得很差勁\n\n36\n00:13:13,992 --> 00:13:38,939\n結果呢我看到食品中毒的人數竟然每年蔡英文執政這八年比馬英九執政那八年每年多四百人八年算起來都快要三千多人啊那我想請教我們院長說那請問我看食品中毒人數暴增你怎麼會覺得你的食安做得比較好呢主要你知道我們的陳靜安院長怎麼回答我你知道嗎\n\n37\n00:13:41,769 --> 00:14:07,646\n你不知道啦你一定不知道啦他說食品中毒不是食安問題啊他還不只講一次我的質詢應該一直插話跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題結果我後來再去質詢薛部長我就不服氣啊我說食品中毒怎麼不是食安問題吃到肚子裡可能健康受損甚至可能奪到人命怎麼不是食安問題薛部長就很誠實啊直接跟我講食品中毒就是食安問題啊\n\n38\n00:14:09,023 --> 00:14:34,857\n結果我一個月前直批我們的政府食品中毒管制做不好結果院長跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題請問最近發生什麼事情?那個有保齡的事件對啊保齡事件啊鬧出人命來所以我要講就是說今天我們政府預算也給你啦就像省政府報告講的\n\n39\n00:14:36,574 --> 00:14:56,066\n編列30億元的預算給你啊那我想請問到底我們現在政府對於食安的部分給你預算、給你經費你有把食安做好嗎?我不知道沈縣長怎麼去看你們自己在審核過程當中政府對於食安的這件事情真的有做到該做的所有的事情嗎?\n\n40\n00:14:58,168 --> 00:15:14,381\n我們會從這個《蘇安五法》裡面的沿途管理各方面都給相關單位一些審核意見希望他們去重視好非常謝謝沈紀長以上感謝謝謝樓委員志強的詢問也謝謝陳沈紀長的備詢接下來我們請登記第12號紅委員申翰詢問\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7987\t32328\t委員好沈議長好首先我覺得審計部的決算審核就像一面照妖鏡把政府敗壞財政紀律現行那這一點我是肯定我們審計部的一個報告能夠幫忙我們抓政府的財政以及各方面的一個漏洞也好讓立法院來協助補強所以先謝謝沈議長跟審計部\n36550\t44381\t這是我們的主軸 謝謝那沈記長你口頭報告有提到中央政府一年以上債務未償餘額是5兆6997億元 對不對\n48769\t70163\t那這個數字換算下來﹐國人每年每人平均背負國債25萬那蔡英文政府任內特別預算經費高達2.4兆元那許多的執行期間都是到下任政府請問沈記長這算不算是另外一種債留子孫呢\n72475\t82684\t這個整個預算的注度是這樣的沒有他會再如果通過了這個預算他會保留繼續延下去有這樣的一個情境是好\n83622\t104328\t當然蔡總統是否認債留子孫說他任內只增加了4000多億債務但本席認為這只是話術而已為什麼呢因為蔡政府舉債的預算數確實是最高的因此因為特別預算分年編列加上稅收成長債務還本提高\n105329\t125895\t使得舉債的帳面數字比較好看但是只要稅收不如預期債務就會失控而且將巨額且未來可能會有的計劃預算全數編列進特別預算並且對外宣稱年年勝於財政很健康這我認為其實就是欺騙人民而且無視財政紀律\n127335\t153135\t那我看過過去就是109年度監察院的報告曾指出我國特別預算之編列有常態化的現象中央政府恐有將部分支出隱藏於前瞻計劃特別預算造成年度然後總預算財政收支平衡之假象那想請教\n154296\t180800\t沈記長你認同這一份報告裡面的說法嗎那特別預算常態化對未來財政造成的影響會是什麼這一個我們是希望在編特別預算的時候要出損勝的態度對那像我們現在特別預算照這個監察院的之前的報告已經有常態化的現象這常態化的現象對我們財政機率的影響是什麼\n182346\t210475\t這個要看相對的有沒有財源這個整個是不是這個預算該不該編可能還是比較重要因為一個建設他會創造國家的一些效能效益所以我是比較常希望那個計畫要考慮在評估的比較順中一點我跟沈縣長說明一下其實中間也不只是常在的問題\n211741\t237077\t事實上特別預算對行政機關也有變異形式當然它可能也是比較方便所以帶有變異形式也比較容易逃避監督所以換言之特別預算不是不可以但是如果腐爛編列常態化的去編列的話當然會對財政機率造成衝擊所以這一點的話是我想說也是要提醒一下我們行政部門不要\n238138\t259487\t把特別預算當作自己好像是非常方便使用的私房錢一樣的概念那立法院之所以存在常態化的預算監督其實為的就是使錢能夠用在刀口之上能夠透明化讓全民來去檢驗預算的合理性嘛這點我不知道沈記長您認同嗎這我認同好\n261684\t279333\t那麼當然其實蔡總統說啦他說前瞻計畫的目標是讓國家建設更多更快更貼近民眾的需求所以讓城鄉建設可以做得更好但是我看到依照我們審計部的決算報告前瞻第三期特別預算的分支計畫\n280313\t308706\t有超過6成位於特別預算執行期間完成其中軌道建設部分第三期特別預算的實現率只有65.1%其中10項計畫甚至沒有實現數主要是因為也沒有經過行政院核定我想請教沈記長有印象這10項所謂的沒有實現數的計畫是哪些呢\n310911\t337485\t非常抱歉我手上沒有這個資料但是我們的同仁我們的整個有這些資料因為大部分都是在做像那個嘉義市的那個高價評估啦各方面這些他沒有沒有實現是因為軌道的建設啊涉及的很多啦那個要經過計畫評估口型性的評估各方面啦他還有細部的評估啊他都是要很慎重\n339045\t367264\t我跟沈記長補充其中兩項我也特別關切了就是臺中捷運藍線以及臺中捷運綠線延伸彰化這兩項計畫都是報告中所指無時限數的計畫那個藍線跟綠線延伸都在2017年納入前瞻計畫直到今年選後才分別獲得行政院合併綜合計畫可行性研究\n368124\t392310\t實際上我覺得省紀部的報告很公允雖然也是客觀還原實際的情況但是你也知道之前這個台中的方面很多人在吵到底是誰在卡台中的捷運我覺得這上面很清楚十項的未實現數有兩項是台中的捷運藍線跟綠線延伸行政院根本在這個部分實際上是處在一個\n393030\t409338\t沒有積極作為的地方所以誰卡地方建設我倒是覺得從省紀部的報告當中卻看得很清楚那接下來我要看看中央對地方補助的部分依照省紀部報告截至111年底中央主管機關合訂計劃總經費總共是9900億元左右\n416502\t418424\t那核定的補助總數是5358億4202萬元請問沈記長你知道哪個縣市獲得的這個補助是最多哪個縣市六都裡面誰是最少的\n432996\t449090\t合訂的補製合訂的補製是高雄市最多一千兩百多億實際上撥補的是新北市是比較多的那六都中台中是少的\n450350\t469257\t但是剛剛委員有講這兩個計畫合併下去台中已經躍升合併補助的900多億我看到的部分我講是六都六都目前台北市是最少台北市是184億那高雄合併獲得中央是1265億那自籌是810億元佔總經費的39%台北市不只是今天只有\n479585\t487299\t高雄市的尾數而已事實上在六都排名最後全國排名第九而且80%的經費都要自籌\n490083\t516261\t所以這是外界其實對於所謂的到底為什麼今天我們中央對地方的補助5300多億你核定高雄就1265億將近四分之一這核定的基準也難免讓外界有一些疑問說難道是今天是看顏色來撥補嗎所以我也希望說今天透過審計部的報告我希望給我們的國人以及行政機關一個警訊\n518743\t537001\t就是說也要顧及說今天各個縣市的建設需求當然不是說不能夠撥補而不能夠核定補助可是你的分配如此懸殊單一縣市就佔掉了相近四分之一然後呢其他縣台中也只有兩百多億啊\n537802\t548549\t然後呢 台北市是184億那這樣的一個數字出來的時候當然對於其他縣市的民眾可能就會有一種厚恥薄彼的感覺嘛我不知道沈記長覺得呢\n550509\t575054\t因為建設有前有後臺北市的捷運是坐在指標前面但是高雄正在興建所以會有產生那台中的部分他都在規劃中或者送合訂中所以會有產生這個有差別的情況但是一般都希望都按照計劃的情形來合訂補助\n576981\t581983\t審計部告告當中又提到,前瞻計劃地方政府自籌4542億,佔總經費45.88%,地方已經編列預算只有1514億,只佔中央合併自籌經費的33%。\n597370\t612025\t上有巨額的經費要於以後年度繼續籌編：那各縣是在既定有限的預算資源之下：為了籌編分擔款：將排擠其他計劃財源之籌措：這是剛剛我再稍微回應一下剛剛主計長您講的\n613607\t631589\t投入的經費的核定是一回事實際上我們也看到關於自籌的部分我剛才前面講了高雄的自籌相對來講獲得比較好的分配它自籌的比例比較低但是台北市的話自籌我看到數字就是將近八成\n632210\t659333\t所以我講的也不只是絕對的數字也包括所謂自籌的這樣的一個分配所以兩相比較起來當然我是必須講說即便說今天很多人拿說哪些縣市的這個發展可能它比較有所謂的發展比較早比較快或它財源比較充裕可是我剛才就講了光台中來講就不是這一回事你可以講台北跟高雄你說有一個落差但台中跟高雄我不認為有什麼太大的落差\n660715\t680315\t當然剛剛主席講到說那是因為行政院這個合併的狀況這就是問題之所在所以常常有人質疑說今天搞了半天你卡住台中的建設你在行政院的部分你合併並不積極你沒有積極的幫助台中市的時候那連帶就影響到連剛剛主席講的這個前瞻的經費的\n683358\t705718\t撥補或是補助的合定也產生連動的影響這些不是都是相關的嗎我不知道主席想怎麼看對這個是會產生一些相關我再想請教前瞻建設的八大建設之一的食品安全然後總共編列30億元的預算可是對照今天食安事件頻傳\n707455\t735157\t那我是不太清楚我們的食安的這個預算到底是花在什麼樣的地方有沒有發揮它實際的功效我舉幾個具體的數字也給沈記長參考我在質詢陳建仁院長的時候曾經有問過請教他過兩個問題其實坦白講我是有點失望因為那時候他在講說他的蔡英文政府的食安表現遠遠的好過馬英九政府時候的食安表現\n736078\t755654\t他只要舉出的數字只有一個啦他說因為這個陳院長跟蔡總統主政之下我們的系統性食安問題只有兩件蔡英文政府只有兩件所以食安做得真的是非常的棒結果呢他講完之後主席長你知道發生什麼事情嗎\n757649\t769788\t蘇丹鴻事件對,施安在報告食安的時候我都說陳建仁是烏鴉嘴阿他才誇口質疑食安系有性食安問題最少結果講的當下蘇丹鴻就爆發\n771260\t792651\t不到幾天我問薛部長就直接承認蘇丹紅就是系統性食安的問題那第二個也很離譜啊我覺得真的我們陳建業院長真的是個烏鴉嘴你知道嗎為什麼因為我就問他說我不太理解我們的院長的報告一直說自己的食安做得好棒棒嘛政府做得很差勁\n793992\t818939\t結果呢我看到食品中毒的人數竟然每年蔡英文執政這八年比馬英九執政那八年每年多四百人八年算起來都快要三千多人啊那我想請教我們院長說那請問我看食品中毒人數暴增你怎麼會覺得你的食安做得比較好呢主要你知道我們的陳靜安院長怎麼回答我你知道嗎\n821769\t847646\t你不知道啦你一定不知道啦他說食品中毒不是食安問題啊他還不只講一次我的質詢應該一直插話跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題結果我後來再去質詢薛部長我就不服氣啊我說食品中毒怎麼不是食安問題吃到肚子裡可能健康受損甚至可能奪到人命怎麼不是食安問題薛部長就很誠實啊直接跟我講食品中毒就是食安問題啊\n849023\t874857\t結果我一個月前直批我們的政府食品中毒管制做不好結果院長跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題請問最近發生什麼事情?那個有保齡的事件對啊保齡事件啊鬧出人命來所以我要講就是說今天我們政府預算也給你啦就像省政府報告講的\n876574\t896066\t編列30億元的預算給你啊那我想請問到底我們現在政府對於食安的部分給你預算、給你經費你有把食安做好嗎?我不知道沈縣長怎麼去看你們自己在審核過程當中政府對於食安的這件事情真的有做到該做的所有的事情嗎?\n898168\t914381\t我們會從這個《蘇安五法》裡面的沿途管理各方面都給相關單位一些審核意見希望他們去重視好 非常謝謝沈紀長 以上感謝謝謝樓委員志強的詢問也謝謝陳沈紀長的備詢接下來我們請登記第12號紅委員申翰詢問\n","txt":"委員好沈議長好首先我覺得審計部的決算審核就像一面照妖鏡把政府敗壞財政紀律現行那這一點我是肯定我們審計部的一個報告能夠幫忙我們抓政府的財政以及各方面的一個漏洞也好讓立法院來協助補強所以先謝謝沈議長跟審計部\n這是我們的主軸 謝謝那沈記長你口頭報告有提到中央政府一年以上債務未償餘額是5兆6997億元 對不對\n那這個數字換算下來﹐國人每年每人平均背負國債25萬那蔡英文政府任內特別預算經費高達2.4兆元那許多的執行期間都是到下任政府請問沈記長這算不算是另外一種債留子孫呢\n這個整個預算的注度是這樣的沒有他會再如果通過了這個預算他會保留繼續延下去有這樣的一個情境是好\n當然蔡總統是否認債留子孫說他任內只增加了4000多億債務但本席認為這只是話術而已為什麼呢因為蔡政府舉債的預算數確實是最高的因此因為特別預算分年編列加上稅收成長債務還本提高\n使得舉債的帳面數字比較好看但是只要稅收不如預期債務就會失控而且將巨額且未來可能會有的計劃預算全數編列進特別預算並且對外宣稱年年勝於財政很健康這我認為其實就是欺騙人民而且無視財政紀律\n那我看過過去就是109年度監察院的報告曾指出我國特別預算之編列有常態化的現象中央政府恐有將部分支出隱藏於前瞻計劃特別預算造成年度然後總預算財政收支平衡之假象那想請教\n沈記長你認同這一份報告裡面的說法嗎那特別預算常態化對未來財政造成的影響會是什麼這一個我們是希望在編特別預算的時候要出損勝的態度對那像我們現在特別預算照這個監察院的之前的報告已經有常態化的現象這常態化的現象對我們財政機率的影響是什麼\n這個要看相對的有沒有財源這個整個是不是這個預算該不該編可能還是比較重要因為一個建設他會創造國家的一些效能效益所以我是比較常希望那個計畫要考慮在評估的比較順中一點我跟沈縣長說明一下其實中間也不只是常在的問題\n事實上特別預算對行政機關也有變異形式當然它可能也是比較方便所以帶有變異形式也比較容易逃避監督所以換言之特別預算不是不可以但是如果腐爛編列常態化的去編列的話當然會對財政機率造成衝擊所以這一點的話是我想說也是要提醒一下我們行政部門不要\n把特別預算當作自己好像是非常方便使用的私房錢一樣的概念那立法院之所以存在常態化的預算監督其實為的就是使錢能夠用在刀口之上能夠透明化讓全民來去檢驗預算的合理性嘛這點我不知道沈記長您認同嗎這我認同好\n那麼當然其實蔡總統說啦他說前瞻計畫的目標是讓國家建設更多更快更貼近民眾的需求所以讓城鄉建設可以做得更好但是我看到依照我們審計部的決算報告前瞻第三期特別預算的分支計畫\n有超過6成位於特別預算執行期間完成其中軌道建設部分第三期特別預算的實現率只有65.1%其中10項計畫甚至沒有實現數主要是因為也沒有經過行政院核定我想請教沈記長有印象這10項所謂的沒有實現數的計畫是哪些呢\n非常抱歉我手上沒有這個資料但是我們的同仁我們的整個有這些資料因為大部分都是在做像那個嘉義市的那個高價評估啦各方面這些他沒有沒有實現是因為軌道的建設啊涉及的很多啦那個要經過計畫評估口型性的評估各方面啦他還有細部的評估啊他都是要很慎重\n我跟沈記長補充其中兩項我也特別關切了就是臺中捷運藍線以及臺中捷運綠線延伸彰化這兩項計畫都是報告中所指無時限數的計畫那個藍線跟綠線延伸都在2017年納入前瞻計畫直到今年選後才分別獲得行政院合併綜合計畫可行性研究\n實際上我覺得省紀部的報告很公允雖然也是客觀還原實際的情況但是你也知道之前這個台中的方面很多人在吵到底是誰在卡台中的捷運我覺得這上面很清楚十項的未實現數有兩項是台中的捷運藍線跟綠線延伸行政院根本在這個部分實際上是處在一個\n沒有積極作為的地方所以誰卡地方建設我倒是覺得從省紀部的報告當中卻看得很清楚那接下來我要看看中央對地方補助的部分依照省紀部報告截至111年底中央主管機關合訂計劃總經費總共是9900億元左右\n那核定的補助總數是5358億4202萬元請問沈記長你知道哪個縣市獲得的這個補助是最多哪個縣市六都裡面誰是最少的\n合訂的補製合訂的補製是高雄市最多一千兩百多億實際上撥補的是新北市是比較多的那六都中台中是少的\n但是剛剛委員有講這兩個計畫合併下去台中已經躍升合併補助的900多億我看到的部分我講是六都六都目前台北市是最少台北市是184億那高雄合併獲得中央是1265億那自籌是810億元佔總經費的39%台北市不只是今天只有\n高雄市的尾數而已事實上在六都排名最後全國排名第九而且80%的經費都要自籌\n所以這是外界其實對於所謂的到底為什麼今天我們中央對地方的補助5300多億你核定高雄就1265億將近四分之一這核定的基準也難免讓外界有一些疑問說難道是今天是看顏色來撥補嗎所以我也希望說今天透過審計部的報告我希望給我們的國人以及行政機關一個警訊\n就是說也要顧及說今天各個縣市的建設需求當然不是說不能夠撥補而不能夠核定補助可是你的分配如此懸殊單一縣市就佔掉了相近四分之一然後呢其他縣台中也只有兩百多億啊\n然後呢 台北市是184億那這樣的一個數字出來的時候當然對於其他縣市的民眾可能就會有一種厚恥薄彼的感覺嘛我不知道沈記長覺得呢\n因為建設有前有後臺北市的捷運是坐在指標前面但是高雄正在興建所以會有產生那台中的部分他都在規劃中或者送合訂中所以會有產生這個有差別的情況但是一般都希望都按照計劃的情形來合訂補助\n審計部告告當中又提到,前瞻計劃地方政府自籌4542億,佔總經費45.88%,地方已經編列預算只有1514億,只佔中央合併自籌經費的33%。\n上有巨額的經費要於以後年度繼續籌編：那各縣是在既定有限的預算資源之下：為了籌編分擔款：將排擠其他計劃財源之籌措：這是剛剛我再稍微回應一下剛剛主計長您講的\n投入的經費的核定是一回事實際上我們也看到關於自籌的部分我剛才前面講了高雄的自籌相對來講獲得比較好的分配它自籌的比例比較低但是台北市的話自籌我看到數字就是將近八成\n所以我講的也不只是絕對的數字也包括所謂自籌的這樣的一個分配所以兩相比較起來當然我是必須講說即便說今天很多人拿說哪些縣市的這個發展可能它比較有所謂的發展比較早比較快或它財源比較充裕可是我剛才就講了光台中來講就不是這一回事你可以講台北跟高雄你說有一個落差但台中跟高雄我不認為有什麼太大的落差\n當然剛剛主席講到說那是因為行政院這個合併的狀況這就是問題之所在所以常常有人質疑說今天搞了半天你卡住台中的建設你在行政院的部分你合併並不積極你沒有積極的幫助台中市的時候那連帶就影響到連剛剛主席講的這個前瞻的經費的\n撥補或是補助的合定也產生連動的影響這些不是都是相關的嗎我不知道主席想怎麼看對這個是會產生一些相關我再想請教前瞻建設的八大建設之一的食品安全然後總共編列30億元的預算可是對照今天食安事件頻傳\n那我是不太清楚我們的食安的這個預算到底是花在什麼樣的地方有沒有發揮它實際的功效我舉幾個具體的數字也給沈記長參考我在質詢陳建仁院長的時候曾經有問過請教他過兩個問題其實坦白講我是有點失望因為那時候他在講說他的蔡英文政府的食安表現遠遠的好過馬英九政府時候的食安表現\n他只要舉出的數字只有一個啦他說因為這個陳院長跟蔡總統主政之下我們的系統性食安問題只有兩件蔡英文政府只有兩件所以食安做得真的是非常的棒結果呢他講完之後主席長你知道發生什麼事情嗎\n蘇丹鴻事件對,施安在報告食安的時候我都說陳建仁是烏鴉嘴阿他才誇口質疑食安系有性食安問題最少結果講的當下蘇丹鴻就爆發\n不到幾天我問薛部長就直接承認蘇丹紅就是系統性食安的問題那第二個也很離譜啊我覺得真的我們陳建業院長真的是個烏鴉嘴你知道嗎為什麼因為我就問他說我不太理解我們的院長的報告一直說自己的食安做得好棒棒嘛政府做得很差勁\n結果呢我看到食品中毒的人數竟然每年蔡英文執政這八年比馬英九執政那八年每年多四百人八年算起來都快要三千多人啊那我想請教我們院長說那請問我看食品中毒人數暴增你怎麼會覺得你的食安做得比較好呢主要你知道我們的陳靜安院長怎麼回答我你知道嗎\n你不知道啦你一定不知道啦他說食品中毒不是食安問題啊他還不只講一次我的質詢應該一直插話跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題結果我後來再去質詢薛部長我就不服氣啊我說食品中毒怎麼不是食安問題吃到肚子裡可能健康受損甚至可能奪到人命怎麼不是食安問題薛部長就很誠實啊直接跟我講食品中毒就是食安問題啊\n結果我一個月前直批我們的政府食品中毒管制做不好結果院長跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題請問最近發生什麼事情?那個有保齡的事件對啊保齡事件啊鬧出人命來所以我要講就是說今天我們政府預算也給你啦就像省政府報告講的\n編列30億元的預算給你啊那我想請問到底我們現在政府對於食安的部分給你預算、給你經費你有把食安做好嗎?我不知道沈縣長怎麼去看你們自己在審核過程當中政府對於食安的這件事情真的有做到該做的所有的事情嗎?\n我們會從這個《蘇安五法》裡面的沿途管理各方面都給相關單位一些審核意見希望他們去重視好 非常謝謝沈紀長 以上感謝謝謝樓委員志強的詢問也謝謝陳沈紀長的備詢接下來我們請登記第12號紅委員申翰詢問\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.987 --> 00:32.328\n委員好沈議長好首先我覺得審計部的決算審核就像一面照妖鏡把政府敗壞財政紀律現行那這一點我是肯定我們審計部的一個報告能夠幫忙我們抓政府的財政以及各方面的一個漏洞也好讓立法院來協助補強所以先謝謝沈議長跟審計部\n\n00:36.550 --> 00:44.381\n這是我們的主軸謝謝那沈記長你口頭報告有提到中央政府一年以上債務未償餘額是5兆6997億元對不對\n\n00:48.769 --> 01:10.163\n那這個數字換算下來﹐國人每年每人平均背負國債25萬那蔡英文政府任內特別預算經費高達2.4兆元那許多的執行期間都是到下任政府請問沈記長這算不算是另外一種債留子孫呢\n\n01:12.475 --> 01:22.684\n這個整個預算的注度是這樣的沒有他會再如果通過了這個預算他會保留繼續延下去有這樣的一個情境是好\n\n01:23.622 --> 01:44.328\n當然蔡總統是否認債留子孫說他任內只增加了4000多億債務但本席認為這只是話術而已為什麼呢因為蔡政府舉債的預算數確實是最高的因此因為特別預算分年編列加上稅收成長債務還本提高\n\n01:45.329 --> 02:05.895\n使得舉債的帳面數字比較好看但是只要稅收不如預期債務就會失控而且將巨額且未來可能會有的計劃預算全數編列進特別預算並且對外宣稱年年勝於財政很健康這我認為其實就是欺騙人民而且無視財政紀律\n\n02:07.335 --> 02:33.135\n那我看過過去就是109年度監察院的報告曾指出我國特別預算之編列有常態化的現象中央政府恐有將部分支出隱藏於前瞻計劃特別預算造成年度然後總預算財政收支平衡之假象那想請教\n\n02:34.296 --> 03:00.800\n沈記長你認同這一份報告裡面的說法嗎那特別預算常態化對未來財政造成的影響會是什麼這一個我們是希望在編特別預算的時候要出損勝的態度對那像我們現在特別預算照這個監察院的之前的報告已經有常態化的現象這常態化的現象對我們財政機率的影響是什麼\n\n03:02.346 --> 03:30.475\n這個要看相對的有沒有財源這個整個是不是這個預算該不該編可能還是比較重要因為一個建設他會創造國家的一些效能效益所以我是比較常希望那個計畫要考慮在評估的比較順中一點我跟沈縣長說明一下其實中間也不只是常在的問題\n\n03:31.741 --> 03:57.077\n事實上特別預算對行政機關也有變異形式當然它可能也是比較方便所以帶有變異形式也比較容易逃避監督所以換言之特別預算不是不可以但是如果腐爛編列常態化的去編列的話當然會對財政機率造成衝擊所以這一點的話是我想說也是要提醒一下我們行政部門不要\n\n03:58.138 --> 04:19.487\n把特別預算當作自己好像是非常方便使用的私房錢一樣的概念那立法院之所以存在常態化的預算監督其實為的就是使錢能夠用在刀口之上能夠透明化讓全民來去檢驗預算的合理性嘛這點我不知道沈記長您認同嗎這我認同好\n\n04:21.684 --> 04:39.333\n那麼當然其實蔡總統說啦他說前瞻計畫的目標是讓國家建設更多更快更貼近民眾的需求所以讓城鄉建設可以做得更好但是我看到依照我們審計部的決算報告前瞻第三期特別預算的分支計畫\n\n04:40.313 --> 05:08.706\n有超過6成位於特別預算執行期間完成其中軌道建設部分第三期特別預算的實現率只有65.1%其中10項計畫甚至沒有實現數主要是因為也沒有經過行政院核定我想請教沈記長有印象這10項所謂的沒有實現數的計畫是哪些呢\n\n05:10.911 --> 05:37.485\n非常抱歉我手上沒有這個資料但是我們的同仁我們的整個有這些資料因為大部分都是在做像那個嘉義市的那個高價評估啦各方面這些他沒有沒有實現是因為軌道的建設啊涉及的很多啦那個要經過計畫評估口型性的評估各方面啦他還有細部的評估啊他都是要很慎重\n\n05:39.045 --> 06:07.264\n我跟沈記長補充其中兩項我也特別關切了就是臺中捷運藍線以及臺中捷運綠線延伸彰化這兩項計畫都是報告中所指無時限數的計畫那個藍線跟綠線延伸都在2017年納入前瞻計畫直到今年選後才分別獲得行政院合併綜合計畫可行性研究\n\n06:08.124 --> 06:32.310\n實際上我覺得省紀部的報告很公允雖然也是客觀還原實際的情況但是你也知道之前這個台中的方面很多人在吵到底是誰在卡台中的捷運我覺得這上面很清楚十項的未實現數有兩項是台中的捷運藍線跟綠線延伸行政院根本在這個部分實際上是處在一個\n\n06:33.030 --> 06:49.338\n沒有積極作為的地方所以誰卡地方建設我倒是覺得從省紀部的報告當中卻看得很清楚那接下來我要看看中央對地方補助的部分依照省紀部報告截至111年底中央主管機關合訂計劃總經費總共是9900億元左右\n\n06:56.502 --> 06:58.424\n那核定的補助總數是5358億4202萬元請問沈記長你知道哪個縣市獲得的這個補助是最多哪個縣市六都裡面誰是最少的\n\n07:12.996 --> 07:29.090\n合訂的補製合訂的補製是高雄市最多一千兩百多億實際上撥補的是新北市是比較多的那六都中台中是少的\n\n07:30.350 --> 07:49.257\n但是剛剛委員有講這兩個計畫合併下去台中已經躍升合併補助的900多億我看到的部分我講是六都六都目前台北市是最少台北市是184億那高雄合併獲得中央是1265億那自籌是810億元佔總經費的39%台北市不只是今天只有\n\n07:59.585 --> 08:07.299\n高雄市的尾數而已事實上在六都排名最後全國排名第九而且80%的經費都要自籌\n\n08:10.083 --> 08:36.261\n所以這是外界其實對於所謂的到底為什麼今天我們中央對地方的補助5300多億你核定高雄就1265億將近四分之一這核定的基準也難免讓外界有一些疑問說難道是今天是看顏色來撥補嗎所以我也希望說今天透過審計部的報告我希望給我們的國人以及行政機關一個警訊\n\n08:38.743 --> 08:57.001\n就是說也要顧及說今天各個縣市的建設需求當然不是說不能夠撥補而不能夠核定補助可是你的分配如此懸殊單一縣市就佔掉了相近四分之一然後呢其他縣台中也只有兩百多億啊\n\n08:57.802 --> 09:08.549\n然後呢台北市是184億那這樣的一個數字出來的時候當然對於其他縣市的民眾可能就會有一種厚恥薄彼的感覺嘛我不知道沈記長覺得呢\n\n09:10.509 --> 09:35.054\n因為建設有前有後臺北市的捷運是坐在指標前面但是高雄正在興建所以會有產生那台中的部分他都在規劃中或者送合訂中所以會有產生這個有差別的情況但是一般都希望都按照計劃的情形來合訂補助\n\n09:36.981 --> 09:41.983\n審計部告告當中又提到,前瞻計劃地方政府自籌4542億,佔總經費45.88%,地方已經編列預算只有1514億,只佔中央合併自籌經費的33%。\n\n09:57.370 --> 10:12.025\n上有巨額的經費要於以後年度繼續籌編：那各縣是在既定有限的預算資源之下：為了籌編分擔款：將排擠其他計劃財源之籌措：這是剛剛我再稍微回應一下剛剛主計長您講的\n\n10:13.607 --> 10:31.589\n投入的經費的核定是一回事實際上我們也看到關於自籌的部分我剛才前面講了高雄的自籌相對來講獲得比較好的分配它自籌的比例比較低但是台北市的話自籌我看到數字就是將近八成\n\n10:32.210 --> 10:59.333\n所以我講的也不只是絕對的數字也包括所謂自籌的這樣的一個分配所以兩相比較起來當然我是必須講說即便說今天很多人拿說哪些縣市的這個發展可能它比較有所謂的發展比較早比較快或它財源比較充裕可是我剛才就講了光台中來講就不是這一回事你可以講台北跟高雄你說有一個落差但台中跟高雄我不認為有什麼太大的落差\n\n11:00.715 --> 11:20.315\n當然剛剛主席講到說那是因為行政院這個合併的狀況這就是問題之所在所以常常有人質疑說今天搞了半天你卡住台中的建設你在行政院的部分你合併並不積極你沒有積極的幫助台中市的時候那連帶就影響到連剛剛主席講的這個前瞻的經費的\n\n11:23.358 --> 11:45.718\n撥補或是補助的合定也產生連動的影響這些不是都是相關的嗎我不知道主席想怎麼看對這個是會產生一些相關我再想請教前瞻建設的八大建設之一的食品安全然後總共編列30億元的預算可是對照今天食安事件頻傳\n\n11:47.455 --> 12:15.157\n那我是不太清楚我們的食安的這個預算到底是花在什麼樣的地方有沒有發揮它實際的功效我舉幾個具體的數字也給沈記長參考我在質詢陳建仁院長的時候曾經有問過請教他過兩個問題其實坦白講我是有點失望因為那時候他在講說他的蔡英文政府的食安表現遠遠的好過馬英九政府時候的食安表現\n\n12:16.078 --> 12:35.654\n他只要舉出的數字只有一個啦他說因為這個陳院長跟蔡總統主政之下我們的系統性食安問題只有兩件蔡英文政府只有兩件所以食安做得真的是非常的棒結果呢他講完之後主席長你知道發生什麼事情嗎\n\n12:37.649 --> 12:49.788\n蘇丹鴻事件對,施安在報告食安的時候我都說陳建仁是烏鴉嘴阿他才誇口質疑食安系有性食安問題最少結果講的當下蘇丹鴻就爆發\n\n12:51.260 --> 13:12.651\n不到幾天我問薛部長就直接承認蘇丹紅就是系統性食安的問題那第二個也很離譜啊我覺得真的我們陳建業院長真的是個烏鴉嘴你知道嗎為什麼因為我就問他說我不太理解我們的院長的報告一直說自己的食安做得好棒棒嘛政府做得很差勁\n\n13:13.992 --> 13:38.939\n結果呢我看到食品中毒的人數竟然每年蔡英文執政這八年比馬英九執政那八年每年多四百人八年算起來都快要三千多人啊那我想請教我們院長說那請問我看食品中毒人數暴增你怎麼會覺得你的食安做得比較好呢主要你知道我們的陳靜安院長怎麼回答我你知道嗎\n\n13:41.769 --> 14:07.646\n你不知道啦你一定不知道啦他說食品中毒不是食安問題啊他還不只講一次我的質詢應該一直插話跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題結果我後來再去質詢薛部長我就不服氣啊我說食品中毒怎麼不是食安問題吃到肚子裡可能健康受損甚至可能奪到人命怎麼不是食安問題薛部長就很誠實啊直接跟我講食品中毒就是食安問題啊\n\n14:09.023 --> 14:34.857\n結果我一個月前直批我們的政府食品中毒管制做不好結果院長跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題請問最近發生什麼事情?那個有保齡的事件對啊保齡事件啊鬧出人命來所以我要講就是說今天我們政府預算也給你啦就像省政府報告講的\n\n14:36.574 --> 14:56.066\n編列30億元的預算給你啊那我想請問到底我們現在政府對於食安的部分給你預算、給你經費你有把食安做好嗎?我不知道沈縣長怎麼去看你們自己在審核過程當中政府對於食安的這件事情真的有做到該做的所有的事情嗎?\n\n14:58.168 --> 15:14.381\n我們會從這個《蘇安五法》裡面的沿途管理各方面都給相關單位一些審核意見希望他們去重視好非常謝謝沈紀長以上感謝謝謝樓委員志強的詢問也謝謝陳沈紀長的備詢接下來我們請登記第12號紅委員申翰詢問\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.987,"end":32.328,"text":"委員好沈議長好首先我覺得審計部的決算審核就像一面照妖鏡把政府敗壞財政紀律現行那這一點我是肯定我們審計部的一個報告能夠幫忙我們抓政府的財政以及各方面的一個漏洞也好讓立法院來協助補強所以先謝謝沈議長跟審計部"},{"start":36.55,"end":44.381,"text":"這是我們的主軸 謝謝那沈記長你口頭報告有提到中央政府一年以上債務未償餘額是5兆6997億元 對不對"},{"start":48.769,"end":70.163,"text":"那這個數字換算下來﹐國人每年每人平均背負國債25萬那蔡英文政府任內特別預算經費高達2.4兆元那許多的執行期間都是到下任政府請問沈記長這算不算是另外一種債留子孫呢"},{"start":72.475,"end":82.684,"text":"這個整個預算的注度是這樣的沒有他會再如果通過了這個預算他會保留繼續延下去有這樣的一個情境是好"},{"start":83.622,"end":104.328,"text":"當然蔡總統是否認債留子孫說他任內只增加了4000多億債務但本席認為這只是話術而已為什麼呢因為蔡政府舉債的預算數確實是最高的因此因為特別預算分年編列加上稅收成長債務還本提高"},{"start":105.329,"end":125.895,"text":"使得舉債的帳面數字比較好看但是只要稅收不如預期債務就會失控而且將巨額且未來可能會有的計劃預算全數編列進特別預算並且對外宣稱年年勝於財政很健康這我認為其實就是欺騙人民而且無視財政紀律"},{"start":127.335,"end":153.135,"text":"那我看過過去就是109年度監察院的報告曾指出我國特別預算之編列有常態化的現象中央政府恐有將部分支出隱藏於前瞻計劃特別預算造成年度然後總預算財政收支平衡之假象那想請教"},{"start":154.296,"end":180.8,"text":"沈記長你認同這一份報告裡面的說法嗎那特別預算常態化對未來財政造成的影響會是什麼這一個我們是希望在編特別預算的時候要出損勝的態度對那像我們現在特別預算照這個監察院的之前的報告已經有常態化的現象這常態化的現象對我們財政機率的影響是什麼"},{"start":182.346,"end":210.475,"text":"這個要看相對的有沒有財源這個整個是不是這個預算該不該編可能還是比較重要因為一個建設他會創造國家的一些效能效益所以我是比較常希望那個計畫要考慮在評估的比較順中一點我跟沈縣長說明一下其實中間也不只是常在的問題"},{"start":211.741,"end":237.077,"text":"事實上特別預算對行政機關也有變異形式當然它可能也是比較方便所以帶有變異形式也比較容易逃避監督所以換言之特別預算不是不可以但是如果腐爛編列常態化的去編列的話當然會對財政機率造成衝擊所以這一點的話是我想說也是要提醒一下我們行政部門不要"},{"start":238.138,"end":259.487,"text":"把特別預算當作自己好像是非常方便使用的私房錢一樣的概念那立法院之所以存在常態化的預算監督其實為的就是使錢能夠用在刀口之上能夠透明化讓全民來去檢驗預算的合理性嘛這點我不知道沈記長您認同嗎這我認同好"},{"start":261.684,"end":279.333,"text":"那麼當然其實蔡總統說啦他說前瞻計畫的目標是讓國家建設更多更快更貼近民眾的需求所以讓城鄉建設可以做得更好但是我看到依照我們審計部的決算報告前瞻第三期特別預算的分支計畫"},{"start":280.313,"end":308.706,"text":"有超過6成位於特別預算執行期間完成其中軌道建設部分第三期特別預算的實現率只有65.1%其中10項計畫甚至沒有實現數主要是因為也沒有經過行政院核定我想請教沈記長有印象這10項所謂的沒有實現數的計畫是哪些呢"},{"start":310.911,"end":337.485,"text":"非常抱歉我手上沒有這個資料但是我們的同仁我們的整個有這些資料因為大部分都是在做像那個嘉義市的那個高價評估啦各方面這些他沒有沒有實現是因為軌道的建設啊涉及的很多啦那個要經過計畫評估口型性的評估各方面啦他還有細部的評估啊他都是要很慎重"},{"start":339.045,"end":367.264,"text":"我跟沈記長補充其中兩項我也特別關切了就是臺中捷運藍線以及臺中捷運綠線延伸彰化這兩項計畫都是報告中所指無時限數的計畫那個藍線跟綠線延伸都在2017年納入前瞻計畫直到今年選後才分別獲得行政院合併綜合計畫可行性研究"},{"start":368.124,"end":392.31,"text":"實際上我覺得省紀部的報告很公允雖然也是客觀還原實際的情況但是你也知道之前這個台中的方面很多人在吵到底是誰在卡台中的捷運我覺得這上面很清楚十項的未實現數有兩項是台中的捷運藍線跟綠線延伸行政院根本在這個部分實際上是處在一個"},{"start":393.03,"end":409.338,"text":"沒有積極作為的地方所以誰卡地方建設我倒是覺得從省紀部的報告當中卻看得很清楚那接下來我要看看中央對地方補助的部分依照省紀部報告截至111年底中央主管機關合訂計劃總經費總共是9900億元左右"},{"start":416.502,"end":418.424,"text":"那核定的補助總數是5358億4202萬元請問沈記長你知道哪個縣市獲得的這個補助是最多哪個縣市六都裡面誰是最少的"},{"start":432.996,"end":449.09,"text":"合訂的補製合訂的補製是高雄市最多一千兩百多億實際上撥補的是新北市是比較多的那六都中台中是少的"},{"start":450.35,"end":469.257,"text":"但是剛剛委員有講這兩個計畫合併下去台中已經躍升合併補助的900多億我看到的部分我講是六都六都目前台北市是最少台北市是184億那高雄合併獲得中央是1265億那自籌是810億元佔總經費的39%台北市不只是今天只有"},{"start":479.585,"end":487.299,"text":"高雄市的尾數而已事實上在六都排名最後全國排名第九而且80%的經費都要自籌"},{"start":490.083,"end":516.261,"text":"所以這是外界其實對於所謂的到底為什麼今天我們中央對地方的補助5300多億你核定高雄就1265億將近四分之一這核定的基準也難免讓外界有一些疑問說難道是今天是看顏色來撥補嗎所以我也希望說今天透過審計部的報告我希望給我們的國人以及行政機關一個警訊"},{"start":518.743,"end":537.001,"text":"就是說也要顧及說今天各個縣市的建設需求當然不是說不能夠撥補而不能夠核定補助可是你的分配如此懸殊單一縣市就佔掉了相近四分之一然後呢其他縣台中也只有兩百多億啊"},{"start":537.802,"end":548.549,"text":"然後呢 台北市是184億那這樣的一個數字出來的時候當然對於其他縣市的民眾可能就會有一種厚恥薄彼的感覺嘛我不知道沈記長覺得呢"},{"start":550.509,"end":575.054,"text":"因為建設有前有後臺北市的捷運是坐在指標前面但是高雄正在興建所以會有產生那台中的部分他都在規劃中或者送合訂中所以會有產生這個有差別的情況但是一般都希望都按照計劃的情形來合訂補助"},{"start":576.981,"end":581.983,"text":"審計部告告當中又提到,前瞻計劃地方政府自籌4542億,佔總經費45.88%,地方已經編列預算只有1514億,只佔中央合併自籌經費的33%。"},{"start":597.37,"end":612.025,"text":"上有巨額的經費要於以後年度繼續籌編：那各縣是在既定有限的預算資源之下：為了籌編分擔款：將排擠其他計劃財源之籌措：這是剛剛我再稍微回應一下剛剛主計長您講的"},{"start":613.607,"end":631.589,"text":"投入的經費的核定是一回事實際上我們也看到關於自籌的部分我剛才前面講了高雄的自籌相對來講獲得比較好的分配它自籌的比例比較低但是台北市的話自籌我看到數字就是將近八成"},{"start":632.21,"end":659.333,"text":"所以我講的也不只是絕對的數字也包括所謂自籌的這樣的一個分配所以兩相比較起來當然我是必須講說即便說今天很多人拿說哪些縣市的這個發展可能它比較有所謂的發展比較早比較快或它財源比較充裕可是我剛才就講了光台中來講就不是這一回事你可以講台北跟高雄你說有一個落差但台中跟高雄我不認為有什麼太大的落差"},{"start":660.715,"end":680.315,"text":"當然剛剛主席講到說那是因為行政院這個合併的狀況這就是問題之所在所以常常有人質疑說今天搞了半天你卡住台中的建設你在行政院的部分你合併並不積極你沒有積極的幫助台中市的時候那連帶就影響到連剛剛主席講的這個前瞻的經費的"},{"start":683.358,"end":705.718,"text":"撥補或是補助的合定也產生連動的影響這些不是都是相關的嗎我不知道主席想怎麼看對這個是會產生一些相關我再想請教前瞻建設的八大建設之一的食品安全然後總共編列30億元的預算可是對照今天食安事件頻傳"},{"start":707.455,"end":735.157,"text":"那我是不太清楚我們的食安的這個預算到底是花在什麼樣的地方有沒有發揮它實際的功效我舉幾個具體的數字也給沈記長參考我在質詢陳建仁院長的時候曾經有問過請教他過兩個問題其實坦白講我是有點失望因為那時候他在講說他的蔡英文政府的食安表現遠遠的好過馬英九政府時候的食安表現"},{"start":736.078,"end":755.654,"text":"他只要舉出的數字只有一個啦他說因為這個陳院長跟蔡總統主政之下我們的系統性食安問題只有兩件蔡英文政府只有兩件所以食安做得真的是非常的棒結果呢他講完之後主席長你知道發生什麼事情嗎"},{"start":757.649,"end":769.788,"text":"蘇丹鴻事件對,施安在報告食安的時候我都說陳建仁是烏鴉嘴阿他才誇口質疑食安系有性食安問題最少結果講的當下蘇丹鴻就爆發"},{"start":771.26,"end":792.651,"text":"不到幾天我問薛部長就直接承認蘇丹紅就是系統性食安的問題那第二個也很離譜啊我覺得真的我們陳建業院長真的是個烏鴉嘴你知道嗎為什麼因為我就問他說我不太理解我們的院長的報告一直說自己的食安做得好棒棒嘛政府做得很差勁"},{"start":793.992,"end":818.939,"text":"結果呢我看到食品中毒的人數竟然每年蔡英文執政這八年比馬英九執政那八年每年多四百人八年算起來都快要三千多人啊那我想請教我們院長說那請問我看食品中毒人數暴增你怎麼會覺得你的食安做得比較好呢主要你知道我們的陳靜安院長怎麼回答我你知道嗎"},{"start":821.769,"end":847.646,"text":"你不知道啦你一定不知道啦他說食品中毒不是食安問題啊他還不只講一次我的質詢應該一直插話跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題結果我後來再去質詢薛部長我就不服氣啊我說食品中毒怎麼不是食安問題吃到肚子裡可能健康受損甚至可能奪到人命怎麼不是食安問題薛部長就很誠實啊直接跟我講食品中毒就是食安問題啊"},{"start":849.023,"end":874.857,"text":"結果我一個月前直批我們的政府食品中毒管制做不好結果院長跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題請問最近發生什麼事情?那個有保齡的事件對啊保齡事件啊鬧出人命來所以我要講就是說今天我們政府預算也給你啦就像省政府報告講的"},{"start":876.574,"end":896.066,"text":"編列30億元的預算給你啊那我想請問到底我們現在政府對於食安的部分給你預算、給你經費你有把食安做好嗎?我不知道沈縣長怎麼去看你們自己在審核過程當中政府對於食安的這件事情真的有做到該做的所有的事情嗎?"},{"start":898.168,"end":914.381,"text":"我們會從這個《蘇安五法》裡面的沿途管理各方面都給相關單位一些審核意見希望他們去重視好 非常謝謝沈紀長 以上感謝謝謝樓委員志強的詢問也謝謝陳沈紀長的備詢接下來我們請登記第12號紅委員申翰詢問"}]}}}}