{"id":150848,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150848","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fc39d7ff8423ea3c1bda4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a64cd5d9dcafc62b725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"14:46:00 - 15:01:10","影片長度":"00:15:10","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":910,"end_time":"2024-04-02T15:01:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T14:46:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":794,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（14時46分）主席好，請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：審計長好。這一次我們看到審計部針對111年的中央政府總預算，還有紓困振興的特別決算，提出審核報告，我們讀了裡面審查的一些意見，有幾點我想要再跟審計長做一個討論跟請教。第一個點想跟審計長討論的是關於紓困振興計畫，其實在第一項的意見中，審查報告上面寫了一段，它寫說：「政府辦理各項紓困補貼措施，有助緩解受疫情影響之產業及個人衝擊，惟間有重複發放或補貼對象資格不符情事發生，衍生後續追繳行政作業成本，未來倘有辦理類此補貼措施需求，允宜完善相關政策及作業規劃，俾使政府施政更臻周妥。」我其實看了這一段以後就回想到那時候，包括從2020年當時在疫情一開始的時候，大家就討論、規劃要做所謂的紓困金，這個紓困金要發放給民眾的時候，其實大家一直講到有一類的對象，我不知道審計長還記不記得？就是那些賣玉蘭花，或者是在路口舉牌子的這些人，你說他是勞工嗎？他其實不是正式的勞工，但他確實是付出最底層的勞動力在工作的狀況，這些非典型勞動的民眾，其實當時大家一直在討論，我們到底能用什麼方式，可以把紓困金或他們需要的資源發放給他們？因為他確實是當時受到最大影響的，而且是社會最邊緣的，後來我們發現這個設計有重重的困難，因為在廣義的社會救助體系裡面，在制度上面，這一群人其實都是被漏掉的一塊，所以我們也不一定能夠用所謂的中低收入戶的部分涵蓋他們，因為他們很可能也不在中低收入戶的這個涵蓋範圍裡面，所以後來討論很久。","公務員其實也提到一個問題，他們說有時候會有點擔心會不會有違法、會不會有溢領的這個狀況，尤其是溢領會面對審計部門的檢討，我們看到這個報告當然就檢討了這件事情，可是我今天為什麼要特別提出來跟審計長討論？我其實覺得這個檢討本身是有值得討論的空間的，我們當初在設計這個紓困金制度的時候，當時就是找不到合適的機制跟方法，所以後來選擇用所謂急難救助的作法，這個急難救助的作法，其實就是以家戶為單位，審計長清楚嘛，可是用家戶為單位的時候，這裡面會有很多制度不相符的問題，所以那時候跟行政院談了很久，最後討論必須用一個切結書，一個比較彈性的方式去處理這個問題，切結書當然不是一個根本處理的方法，但是沒有辦法，我們就沒有找到一個邏輯清楚，可以對應到這群人的作法。","審計長，其實現在我看到你們的表4，審核報告中的表4裡面，我看到衛福部這一項，數據上面應追繳的有1億4,818萬元，目前已經追繳的大概只有四千多萬元，也就是大概還有1億元沒有追繳，相比於其他部會的，其他部會有些其實追繳的狀況程度很高，有一些其實已經大部分都能夠追繳到，但是在衛福部這一項顯然很難追繳得到。","審計長，我很擔心喔！當你這份報告出來以後，我們未來假設要再設計相關制度的時候，其實公務員的心態又會保守，為什麼我說怕他們保守？當初其實就是因為他們很怕會發生溢領的狀況，所以就想要把這個機制設計的很複雜，因為怕溢領，可是當他一設計複雜的時候，就會把很多人又排除在外了。審計長，你對這事情怎麼看？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：行政院對發生疫情的時候是用從優、從速、從簡，非常好的一個原則，這個原則要能夠繼續再一直往前推，後面不容好像說有人會溢領，其實我們查到的，他的綜合所得不會有超過100萬以上的，因為勞動部是訂在50萬，屬於這一部分，我們請他再看看，因為這和我們的規定不符，所以這個是有這樣的情形。"],["洪委員申翰：審計長，但我要跟你討論的事情是，其實因為我們當初用急難救助這個項目，它是用家戶去算，我舉個例子，可能有一個家庭，一個父親也許因為他工作的關係或因為個性的關係，其實被這個家庭給逐出去了，可能他的太太、小孩其實日子過得不錯，但這個爸爸卻因為被逐出家裡，所以他的生活過得非常非常的困難。像這種人，你要他回到家裡面，他回不去了，他沒有辦法再接受到家裡面的幫助，因為各種原因、家裡面的原因把他給趕出去了，可是我們需要幫助他啊！但是在這種狀況之下，我們因為用家戶來計算的時候，會看起來他是沒有問題的，這是我們現在制度設計上面的盲點啦！","也因為我們其實等於是會有很多制度設計缺漏的問題，所以我自己就覺得對於有可能、不一定那麼百分百精準的狀況，我們應該要容錯率高一點，不然我們層層設計，設計一個複雜的機制，設計的要切得很乾淨，儘量沒有容錯的機制的時候，像我剛才說的這個爸爸，他就會被踢出去了，他就會被視為沒有資格可以請領紓困金的人。可是在那個當下，他就是需要的人，他就是我們需要幫助的人，這是現在我們看到你在事後的審計過程裡面，當然我知道審計是一門很重要的專業，我沒有要去挑戰這件事，我也都很尊重，可是我覺得我們在這個相關表面的時候，我也很擔心我們的公務員如果只是單純看這上面的審計報告這樣的結論，未來我們在機制設計的時候，又把它設計的繁複，又把它設計的排除性很高，怕錯誤、怕溢領的話，反而該幫助的人不一定幫助得到，審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是，委員，這個很好。第一個，勞動部和我談，我說超過100萬和我們訂的50萬標準是超過很多，這是公平的問題。但是委員剛剛講的，有產生急難的部分，我要勞動部也應該要怎麼樣去幫忙他，這個是我們有考慮。"],["洪委員申翰：可是我現在講的是衛福部啊！因為今天就是衛福部啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：都是這樣的一個情況，再來，因為從優、從速、從簡是政府的政策，我們沒有追究任何一個公務人員、在做這件事的人，因為當時的環境也必須要這樣做。"],["洪委員申翰：審計長，我覺得我們其實也透過疫情的過程，再重新檢視我們這些機制有沒有缺漏的地方，有沒有哪一群我們其實一直想要幫助的人，可是我們既有機制一直觸及不到他們，或找不到一個相對比較有邏輯清晰的路徑去觸及到他們，坦白說我們發現還不少，這是我們制度上面要去修正，包括法規上面、法規的邏輯要去修訂的地方。","我自己很希望，接下來也許像我們的審核報告裡面或審計的報告裡面，其實我們可以把這些深層的原因給點出來，不只是呈現說是不是有溢領、追繳等等等。我自己看到的是，如果我們單純從這個數字的表面來看的話，其實很可能公務員就會有一個比較保守的心態，儘量不要出錯、儘量不要犯錯，反而該幫助的人就會被漏掉了，這是我想跟審計部來做提醒的部分。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["洪委員申翰：甚至去年這個經驗，後來我們開了一個公聽會，公聽會上我們也援引了一些其他國家的經驗，比方說像英國的經驗。英國的經驗很清楚，它一開始的時候，我給你幫助，我願意並可以把門開大一點、寬鬆一點，我讓你都進來，可是你進來以後，我作法是要你盡一些責任，這個責任可能是要提供一些勞務，或者是要去就業，所以我開始幫你媒合就業。所以它把門開大了以後，它的作用是我透過這個機制或社會的救助，來引導你進入一個正軌，而不只是純粹的給你錢或給你幫忙而已。","所以在英國機制裡面，你看到的是他們一開始把門開的比較大、比較寬鬆、比較沒那麼嚴格，但它後續機制設計裡面有一個蠻強的導引性作用在那個地方，我覺得都很值得我們來參考。所以我自己是希望以後審計部在做相關審核的時候，我覺得可以把這些事情也思考進去，至少在我們公務部門、行政部門在看、在讀的時候，或去做check的時候，可以有一些想法上面的刺激，不然如果只是單純從表面來看，這是我們會憂心的事情。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員，我們審計不會創造審核標準，我們的審核標準完全依照行政部門所訂出來的一個制度。剛剛委員這樣講，如果是這樣的制度，我們完全尊重這樣的制度。"],["洪委員申翰：是，但是我的意思是要提醒在寫審核報告的時候，我覺得不該只是流於表面上面的數字，這是第一點我想要跟審計長討論的。第二點，審計長，我們在你們的報告裡面有看到一個部分，在紓困振興特別預算審核報告裡面意見的第七項，有一個是針對COVID-19染疫康復者跨科別整合醫療照顧服務不再續辦的這件事情，我看到審計部其實有提一些意見。關於COVID染疫康復者的跨科別整合醫療照顧服務，其實是我在2021年10月的時候向衛福部提出的一個建議，當時已經越來越多的染疫者在康復的經驗裡面發現他留下蠻多的後遺症，也就是大家所謂的長新冠（long COVID）的狀況，而且他就會遇到不知道去看哪一科，因為科別可能包括耳鼻喉科、可能包括身心科、可能包括胸腔科、可能包括復健科等，所以當時就希望有一個整合的門診，而這個整合門診也符合。","我現在看到審計部的報告裡面有講到，去年11月衛福部把長新冠的整合門診停止了，可是相關的數字，臺灣確診的人數目前看起來是超過一千萬，大概只有8,861名有long COVID的醫療照顧，可是只有大概三成2,669名有接受整合門診會診的服務。審計長，就這個議題來看，為什麼大概只有三成左右有接受整合服務？你覺得原因是什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這一個部分，我們只是希望它不要停。"],["洪委員申翰：你希望他們不要停嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我們是叫它不要停。"],["洪委員申翰：審計長，你們這看法跟我一樣，我們也希望往下再去討論，我自己覺得它之所以停，因為看起來只有三成，因此我們就很好奇，到底是你原本門診的量能不足？還是你宣傳不足？還是沒有這個需求？審計長你覺得？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們對民眾的健康也一直很關照……"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以整個剛剛委員在談的，包括前面所談的，依我們審計的立場是不遺漏任何人，尤其弱勢的，我們更加注意，所以這個部分，我們也是請衛福部能夠稍微再看看，能夠幫忙這些人，所以我們當時提出這樣的一個意見。"],["洪委員申翰：事實上，一直到現在都還有人在染疫，只是現在媒體沒有像前面三年這樣子每天去追蹤染疫的數字或染疫的人，但現在還有人在染疫，其實現在染疫以後，還是有可能會有長新冠的狀況發生。如果你遇到長新冠的狀況，可能一樣有後遺症，但也不知道自己到底病因是什麼或哪裡造成你的問題，所以我非常非常同意，其實到現在還是有整合門診的需求。尤其是我們看到像美國CDC的報告裡面，它說5個人裡面的COVID就有一個有long COVID，65歲以上是4個人裡面就有1個，所以我們是有這個需求的，我們也希望接下來審計部的報告可以以這個角度再次提醒衛福部，不要只是以經濟效益去計算或做這個判斷，其實我們當下還是有這個需求，不要不在關注COVID的期間、大家轉移了目標，11月就草草把這些整合門診給關掉，我們未來也會來追蹤，也很謝謝審計長在你們的報告裡面做了這方面的提醒。坦白說，當時我們提出這個政策建議，我也是在你們審核的報告裡面看到，居然在11月停了，可是看起來我們還是有需求，這部分我覺得我們可以跟審計部一起來努力。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，我們會來追蹤整個衛福部對這方面的檢討情形，儘量的來滿足這些染疫民眾的需求。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝審計長。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪委員申翰的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。接下來請登記第13位王委員鴻薇詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政\n府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告（中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30\n日）」審核經過並備諮詢－詢答完畢－","agenda_id":"1131801_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"150848","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150848","tool":"pyannote","id":"150848-pyannote"},"job_id":"swpcAQ1C2XcUpGFJ","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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\"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 898.519, \"end\": 898.639, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 898.639, \"end\": 898.659, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"登\", \"start\": 898.659, \"end\": 898.679, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 898.679, \"end\": 898.699, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 898.699, \"end\": 898.719, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,207 --> 00:00:08,376\n主教請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:18,257 --> 00:00:36,521\n王委員好呃,審議長好吼那這一次我們看到審計部針對這個111年的中央政府總預算還有紓困振興的特別決算提出這個審核的報告那我們讀了這個裡面審查的一些意見但有幾點我想要再跟審議長來做一個討論跟請教吼\n\n3\n00:00:39,232 --> 00:00:54,916\n那第一個點是想跟審議長討論的是關於在紓困振興計畫上面其實在第一項意見中審查報告上面寫了一段這個他寫說這個政府辦理各項紓困\n\n4\n00:00:55,749 --> 00:01:19,254\n補貼措施有助緩解受疫情影響的產業跟個人衝擊但有重複發放或補貼對象資格不符的情勢發生衍生後續追繳行政作業成本那未來如果辦理類似補貼措施的話應該要完善政策及作業規劃使政府施政更增周延\n\n5\n00:01:20,536 --> 00:01:27,169\n我其實看了這一段以後我就回想到那時候包括從2020年當時在疫情一開始的時候大家就討論\n\n6\n00:01:28,493 --> 00:01:51,972\n那時候規劃要做所謂的紓困金那這個紓困金要發放給民眾的時候其實大家一直講到有一類的對象我不知道沈議長還記不記得就是那些賣玉蘭花或者是在路口這個舉牌子的這些你說他是勞工嗎他其實不是正式的勞工但他確實是付出一個最底層的勞動力在工作的這個狀況\n\n7\n00:01:53,473 --> 00:02:21,993\n那這些非典型的勞動的民眾其實當時大家一直在討論我們到底能用什麼方式可以把這個所謂紓困金或他們需要的資源能夠發放給他們因為他確實是當時可能受影響最大的而且是社會最邊緣的這個狀況那後來我們發現這個設計就有重重的困難因為在廣義的社會救助的體系裡面其實在制度上面這一群人其實都是被漏掉的一塊\n\n8\n00:02:23,464 --> 00:02:31,777\n所以也不一定我們能夠去用所謂的中低收入戶的部分可以涵蓋他們因為他們很可能也不在中低收入戶的這個涵蓋的範圍裡面所以後來討論很久\n\n9\n00:02:36,272 --> 00:02:55,946\n這個公務員其實也提到一個問題說他們有時候會有點擔心會不會有違法會不會有議領這個狀況那尤其是議領會面對審計部門的檢討那我們看到這個報告當然就檢討了這件事情可是我今天為什麼要特別提出來跟審議長討論我其實覺得這個檢討本身我覺得是有值得討論的空間的\n\n10\n00:03:01,479 --> 00:03:17,659\n我們其實當初在設計這個紓困金制度的時候當時就是找不到合適的機制跟方法所以後來選擇了用所謂急難救助的做法那這個急難救助的做法它其實就是以家戶為單位嘛所以講清楚嘛\n\n11\n00:03:18,530 --> 00:03:43,437\n用加匯的單位的時候可是這裡面會有很多制度不相符的問題所以那時候跟行政院談了很久最後討論必須用一個切結書一個比較彈性的方式處理這個問題但切結書當然不是一個根本處理的方法但是沒有辦法我們就沒有找到一個邏輯清楚對應到這一群人的做法其實現在我們看到這個沈議長我看到你們的表示這個\n\n12\n00:03:47,090 --> 00:04:15,735\n這個審核報告中的表示裡面看到在衛福部這一項數據上面應追繳的有1億4818萬元那目前已經追繳的大概只有4000多萬元也就是大概還有1億元沒有追繳相比於其他部會的其他部會有些其實追繳的狀況程度很高有一些其實已經追繳大部分都能夠追繳到但是在這一項衛福部這一項顯然很難追繳得到\n\n13\n00:04:17,625 --> 00:04:45,909\n那個沈議長我很擔心喔當你這份報告出來以後我們未來假設要再設計相關的制度的時候其實公務員的心態又會保守為什麼說怕他們保守當初其實就是因為他們很怕會發生易領的狀況所以就想要把這個機制設計的很複雜因為怕易領可是當他一設計複雜的時候就會把很多人又排除在外了沈議長你對這事情怎麼看\n\n14\n00:04:47,540 --> 00:05:06,030\n行政院對發生這個疫情的時候是用從優從市重檢會很好的一個原則這個原則要能夠繼續再一直往前推後面不容好像說有人會議領其實我們這個我們查到的\n\n15\n00:05:06,710 --> 00:05:27,217\n查到的不會說他是他的所得啊綜合所得啊有超過100萬以上的因為勞動部是定債50萬所以這一部分我們請他再看看因為這和我們的規定不符所以這個是有這樣的情形我這邊我要跟你討論的事情是\n\n16\n00:05:29,488 --> 00:05:56,691\n其實因為我們當初用急難救助這個項目他是用家戶去算所以可能我舉個例子我們可能有一個家庭其實一個父親也許他因為他的工作的關係或他一個個性的關係其實被這個家庭給逐出去了可能他的太太小孩其實日子過得不錯但這個爸爸卻因為其實他被逐出家裡所以他的生活過得非常非常的困難\n\n17\n00:05:58,413 --> 00:06:15,468\n像這種人你要他回到家裡面他回不去了他沒有辦法再接受到家裡面的幫助因為各種原因家裡面的原因把他給趕出去了可是我們需要幫助他但是在這種狀況之下我們因為用加護來計算的時候會看起來他是沒有問題的\n\n18\n00:06:17,347 --> 00:06:36,382\n這是我們現在制度設計上面的盲點那也因為我們其實等於是會有很多制度設計的缺漏的問題所以我自己覺得我當時我就覺得對於有可能不一定100%精準的狀況我們應該要容錯率高一點不然我們層層設計的設計一個複雜的機制設計的要切得很乾淨\n\n19\n00:06:40,678 --> 00:06:47,712\n盡量沒有容錯的機制的時候像我剛才說的這個爸爸他就會被踢出去了他就會被視為\n\n20\n00:06:49,520 --> 00:07:12,562\n你沒有資格可以請領紓困金的人可是在那個當下他就是需要的人他就是我們需要幫助的人這是現在我們看到你在事後的審計的過程裡面但我知道審計是一門很重要的專業我沒有要去挑戰這件事我也都很尊重可是我覺得我們在這個相關表面的時候我也很擔心我們的公務員如果只是單純看這上面的審計報告的這樣子結論的時候\n\n21\n00:07:14,444 --> 00:07:41,707\n未來我們在機制設計的時候你又把它設計的繁複又把它設計的這個排除性很高怕錯誤怕易領的話反而該幫助的人不一定幫助得到沈議長是委員這個很好大概我們第一個勞動部和我談他說我說超過100萬和我們訂的50萬訂的那個標準是超過很多這是公平的問題\n\n22\n00:07:42,762 --> 00:08:06,974\n但是委員所剛剛講的有產生極難的部分我們我要勞動部也應該說這一個要怎麼樣去幫忙他這一個是我們有考慮可是我現在講的是衛福部啊因為今天就是衛福部啊都是這樣的一個情況那就再來因為從優從事重檢是政府的政策我們沒有追究任何\n\n23\n00:08:08,094 --> 00:08:32,647\n一個公務人員在做這件事的人因為當時的環境也必須要這樣做但我很希望沈議長我覺得我們其實也透過疫情的過程我們再重新檢視我們這些機制有沒有缺漏的地方有沒有哪一群我們其實一直想要幫助的人可是我們既有機制一直觸及不到他們或找不到一個相對比較有邏輯清晰的路徑去觸及到他們坦白說我們發現還不少\n\n24\n00:08:34,048 --> 00:08:58,163\n這是我們制度上面要去修正包括法規上面法規的邏輯要去修訂的地方我自己很希望說接下來也許像我們的審核的報告裡面或審計的報告裡面其實我們可以把這些深層的原因給點出來不只是呈現說是不是有易領、追繳等等等我自己看到說如果我們單純從這個數字的表面來看的話其實很可能公務員他就會有一個比較保守的心態盡量不要出錯\n\n25\n00:08:58,863 --> 00:08:59,183\n是否是否是否\n\n26\n00:09:17,108 --> 00:09:32,275\n英國人經驗很清楚他一開始的時候我給你幫助我願意可以把門開大一點寬鬆一點我讓你都進來可是你進來以後我可能做法是我也要你盡一些責任這個責任可能是你要提供一些勞務或者是你要\n\n27\n00:09:33,171 --> 00:09:34,412\n所以在英國機制裡面你看到事情是說\n\n28\n00:09:49,402 --> 00:10:13,329\n他們是把一開始把門開的比較大比較寬鬆比較沒那麼嚴格但他後續的機制的設計裡面他有一個蠻強的導引性的作用在那個地方我覺得都很值得我們來參考所以以後我自己是希望說我們審計部在做相關審核的時候我覺得也可以把這些事情也可以思考進去至少在我們公務部門行政部門在看到在讀的時候或在\n\n29\n00:10:13,969 --> 00:10:21,379\n去做check的時候他可以有一些想法上面的刺激不然如果只是單純從表面來看的話這是我們會憂心的事情\n\n30\n00:10:22,250 --> 00:10:43,647\n報告委員我們審計不會創造那個審核標準我們的審核標準完全依照行政機部門所訂出來的一個制度剛剛委員這樣講如果是這樣的制度我們完全尊重這樣的制度是但是我要提醒就是說我們在寫審核報告的時候我覺得\n\n31\n00:10:44,841 --> 00:11:10,568\n不只是留於表面上面的數字這是第一點我想要跟審議長討論的第二點這個審議長我們在你們的報告裡面有看到一個部分是看到在這個紓困政績的特別預算審核報告裡面的意見的第七項有一個是針對這個COVID-19染疫康復者跨科別整合醫療照顧服務不再續判的這件事情我看到審計部其實有提供了一些意見\n\n32\n00:11:11,687 --> 00:11:31,590\n那其實這個關於COVID的染疫康復者的跨科別整合醫療照顧服務其實是我在2021年10月的時候向衛福部提出一個這個建議那因為當時其實已經越來越多的染疫者在康復的經驗裡面發現他其實留下蠻多的後遺症也就是大家所謂說的長新冠就是LongCOVID的這個狀況\n\n33\n00:11:32,771 --> 00:11:51,747\n而且這個LongCovid他其實他就會遇到他不知道去看哪一科因為科別可能包括耳鼻喉科可能包括身心科可能包括胸腔科可能包括腹腱科很不知道哪一科所以當時就希望有一個這個整合的門診那這個整合門診也符合那我現在看到審計部的報告裡面有講到\n\n34\n00:11:53,228 --> 00:12:11,582\n去年11月衛福部把這個長新冠的整合門診停止可是相關的數字臺灣確診的人數目前看起來是有超過1000萬大概只有8861名有LongCovid的醫療照顧可是可能只有大概三成2669人有接受整合門診的會診的服務就這個陳議長你來看的話為什麼大概只有三成左右\n\n35\n00:12:21,633 --> 00:12:48,358\n有接受折扣?你覺得原因是什麼?這一個部分我們在意只是希望他這一個不要停你希望他不要停嗎?對,我們是叫他不要停沈議長你們這看法跟我一樣那我們也希望往下再去討論他之所以停我自己覺得看起來因為他看起來他只有三成三成我就很好奇到底你是你原本門診的量能不足還是你宣傳不足還是沒有這個需求沈議長你覺得?\n\n36\n00:12:50,029 --> 00:13:16,931\n因為這個我們一直對民眾的健康我們一直也很關照是所以整個剛剛委員在談的包括前面那個我們損失的立場不遺漏盡頭準得取肉數的我們更加注意所以應該這一個部分我們也是請衛福部能夠稍微再看看能夠幫忙這些\n\n37\n00:13:18,091 --> 00:13:34,724\n所以我們當時提出這樣的一個意見事實上現在一直到現在都還有人在染疫只是現在媒體沒有像前面三年這樣子每天去追蹤染疫的數字或染疫的人現在還有人在染疫其實現在染疫以後還是有可能會有長新冠的狀況發生\n\n38\n00:13:36,405 --> 00:13:56,031\n那如果你遇到長新冠的狀況你可能也一樣後遺症你也不知道自己到底病因是什麼地方或哪裡造成你的問題所以我非常非常同意其實到現在還是有整合門診的需求尤其是我們看到像美國CDC的這個報告裡面他說5個人裡面的COVID就有一個有LongCOVID\n\n39\n00:13:57,352 --> 00:14:13,594\n65歲以上的話是4個人裡面就有一個所以我們是有這個需求的所以我們也希望接下來包括像審計部裡面當然可以再以這個角度再提醒我們的衛福部不要只是以經濟效益去計算或來做這個判斷其實我們現在當下還是有這個需求\n\n40\n00:14:14,996 --> 00:14:40,812\n這個不要好像變成不在那個染疫關注COVID的期間大家轉移的目標現在好像11月就草草把這些整合門整給關掉我們未來也會來追蹤但是很謝謝沈記長在你們的報告裡面其實做了這個方面的提醒那不然我也坦白說當時我們提出這個政策建議我也是在你們整合的報告裡面看到居然在11月停了可是看起來我們是還有需求\n\n41\n00:14:41,352 --> 00:14:58,719\n這部分我覺得可以跟審計部我們可以一起來努力啦好我們會來追蹤整個啊衛福部對這個方面的檢討情形怎麼樣來盡量的來滿足這些發生這些不掌力的民眾的一些需求好謝謝審議長謝謝好謝謝侯委員深汗的質詢也謝謝陳審議長的備詢接下來我們請登記第13位\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6207\t8376\t主教 請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長備詢\n18257\t36521\t王委員好呃,審議長好吼那這一次我們看到審計部針對這個111年的中央政府總預算還有紓困振興的特別決算提出這個審核的報告那我們讀了這個裡面審查的一些意見但有幾點我想要再跟審議長來做一個討論跟請教吼\n39232\t54916\t那第一個點是想跟審議長討論的是關於在紓困振興計畫上面其實在第一項意見中審查報告上面寫了一段這個他寫說這個政府辦理各項紓困\n55749\t79254\t補貼措施有助緩解受疫情影響的產業跟個人衝擊但有重複發放或補貼對象資格不符的情勢發生衍生後續追繳行政作業成本那未來如果辦理類似補貼措施的話應該要完善政策及作業規劃使政府施政更增周延\n80536\t87169\t我其實看了這一段以後我就回想到那時候包括從2020年當時在疫情一開始的時候大家就討論\n88493\t111972\t那時候規劃要做所謂的紓困金那這個紓困金要發放給民眾的時候其實大家一直講到有一類的對象我不知道沈議長還記不記得就是那些賣玉蘭花或者是在路口這個舉牌子的這些你說他是勞工嗎他其實不是正式的勞工但他確實是付出一個最底層的勞動力在工作的這個狀況\n113473\t141993\t那這些非典型的勞動的民眾其實當時大家一直在討論我們到底能用什麼方式可以把這個所謂紓困金或他們需要的資源能夠發放給他們因為他確實是當時可能受影響最大的而且是社會最邊緣的這個狀況那後來我們發現這個設計就有重重的困難因為在廣義的社會救助的體系裡面其實在制度上面這一群人其實都是被漏掉的一塊\n143464\t151777\t所以也不一定我們能夠去用所謂的中低收入戶的部分可以涵蓋他們因為他們很可能也不在中低收入戶的這個涵蓋的範圍裡面所以後來討論很久\n156272\t175946\t這個公務員其實也提到一個問題說他們有時候會有點擔心會不會有違法會不會有議領這個狀況那尤其是議領會面對審計部門的檢討那我們看到這個報告當然就檢討了這件事情可是我今天為什麼要特別提出來跟審議長討論我其實覺得這個檢討本身我覺得是有值得討論的空間的\n181479\t197659\t我們其實當初在設計這個紓困金制度的時候當時就是找不到合適的機制跟方法所以後來選擇了用所謂急難救助的做法那這個急難救助的做法它其實就是以家戶為單位嘛所以講清楚嘛\n198530\t223437\t用加匯的單位的時候可是這裡面會有很多制度不相符的問題所以那時候跟行政院談了很久最後討論必須用一個切結書一個比較彈性的方式處理這個問題但切結書當然不是一個根本處理的方法但是沒有辦法我們就沒有找到一個邏輯清楚對應到這一群人的做法其實現在我們看到這個沈議長我看到你們的表示這個\n227090\t255735\t這個審核報告中的表示裡面看到在衛福部這一項數據上面應追繳的有1億4818萬元那目前已經追繳的大概只有4000多萬元也就是大概還有1億元沒有追繳相比於其他部會的其他部會有些其實追繳的狀況程度很高有一些其實已經追繳大部分都能夠追繳到但是在這一項衛福部這一項顯然很難追繳得到\n257625\t285909\t那個沈議長我很擔心喔當你這份報告出來以後我們未來假設要再設計相關的制度的時候其實公務員的心態又會保守為什麼說怕他們保守當初其實就是因為他們很怕會發生易領的狀況所以就想要把這個機制設計的很複雜因為怕易領可是當他一設計複雜的時候就會把很多人又排除在外了沈議長你對這事情怎麼看\n287540\t306030\t行政院對發生這個疫情的時候是用從優從市重檢會很好的一個原則這個原則要能夠繼續再一直往前推後面不容好像說有人會議領其實我們這個我們查到的\n306710\t327217\t查到的不會說他是他的所得啊綜合所得啊有超過100萬以上的因為勞動部是定債50萬所以這一部分我們請他再看看因為這和我們的規定不符所以這個是有這樣的情形我這邊我要跟你討論的事情是\n329488\t356691\t其實因為我們當初用急難救助這個項目他是用家戶去算所以可能我舉個例子我們可能有一個家庭其實一個父親也許他因為他的工作的關係或他一個個性的關係其實被這個家庭給逐出去了可能他的太太小孩其實日子過得不錯但這個爸爸卻因為其實他被逐出家裡所以他的生活過得非常非常的困難\n358413\t375468\t像這種人你要他回到家裡面他回不去了他沒有辦法再接受到家裡面的幫助因為各種原因家裡面的原因把他給趕出去了可是我們需要幫助他但是在這種狀況之下我們因為用加護來計算的時候會看起來他是沒有問題的\n377347\t396382\t這是我們現在制度設計上面的盲點那也因為我們其實等於是會有很多制度設計的缺漏的問題所以我自己覺得我當時我就覺得對於有可能不一定100%精準的狀況我們應該要容錯率高一點不然我們層層設計的設計一個複雜的機制設計的要切得很乾淨\n400678\t407712\t盡量沒有容錯的機制的時候像我剛才說的這個爸爸他就會被踢出去了他就會被視為\n409520\t432562\t你沒有資格可以請領紓困金的人可是在那個當下他就是需要的人他就是我們需要幫助的人這是現在我們看到你在事後的審計的過程裡面但我知道審計是一門很重要的專業我沒有要去挑戰這件事我也都很尊重可是我覺得我們在這個相關表面的時候我也很擔心我們的公務員如果只是單純看這上面的審計報告的這樣子結論的時候\n434444\t461707\t未來我們在機制設計的時候你又把它設計的繁複又把它設計的這個排除性很高怕錯誤怕易領的話反而該幫助的人不一定幫助得到沈議長是委員這個很好大概我們第一個勞動部和我談他說我說超過100萬和我們訂的50萬訂的那個標準是超過很多這是公平的問題\n462762\t486974\t但是委員所剛剛講的有產生極難的部分我們我要勞動部也應該說這一個要怎麼樣去幫忙他這一個是我們有考慮可是我現在講的是衛福部啊因為今天就是衛福部啊都是這樣的一個情況那就再來因為從優從事重檢是政府的政策我們沒有追究任何\n488094\t512647\t一個公務人員在做這件事的人因為當時的環境也必須要這樣做但我很希望沈議長我覺得我們其實也透過疫情的過程我們再重新檢視我們這些機制有沒有缺漏的地方有沒有哪一群我們其實一直想要幫助的人可是我們既有機制一直觸及不到他們或找不到一個相對比較有邏輯清晰的路徑去觸及到他們坦白說我們發現還不少\n514048\t538163\t這是我們制度上面要去修正包括法規上面法規的邏輯要去修訂的地方我自己很希望說接下來也許像我們的審核的報告裡面或審計的報告裡面其實我們可以把這些深層的原因給點出來不只是呈現說是不是有易領、追繳等等等我自己看到說如果我們單純從這個數字的表面來看的話其實很可能公務員他就會有一個比較保守的心態盡量不要出錯\n538863\t539183\t是否是否是否\n557108\t572275\t英國人經驗很清楚他一開始的時候我給你幫助我願意可以把門開大一點寬鬆一點我讓你都進來可是你進來以後我可能做法是我也要你盡一些責任這個責任可能是你要提供一些勞務或者是你要\n573171\t574412\t所以在英國機制裡面你看到事情是說\n589402\t613329\t他們是把一開始把門開的比較大比較寬鬆比較沒那麼嚴格但他後續的機制的設計裡面他有一個蠻強的導引性的作用在那個地方我覺得都很值得我們來參考所以以後我自己是希望說我們審計部在做相關審核的時候我覺得也可以把這些事情也可以思考進去至少在我們公務部門行政部門在看到在讀的時候或在\n613969\t621379\t去做check的時候他可以有一些想法上面的刺激不然如果只是單純從表面來看的話這是我們會憂心的事情\n622250\t643647\t報告委員我們審計不會創造那個審核標準我們的審核標準完全依照行政機部門所訂出來的一個制度剛剛委員這樣講如果是這樣的制度我們完全尊重這樣的制度是但是我要提醒就是說我們在寫審核報告的時候我覺得\n644841\t670568\t不只是留於表面上面的數字這是第一點我想要跟審議長討論的第二點這個審議長我們在你們的報告裡面有看到一個部分是看到在這個紓困政績的特別預算審核報告裡面的意見的第七項有一個是針對這個COVID-19染疫康復者跨科別整合醫療照顧服務不再續判的這件事情我看到審計部其實有提供了一些意見\n671687\t691590\t那其實這個關於COVID的染疫康復者的跨科別整合醫療照顧服務其實是我在2021年10月的時候向衛福部提出一個這個建議那因為當時其實已經越來越多的染疫者在康復的經驗裡面發現他其實留下蠻多的後遺症也就是大家所謂說的長新冠就是Long COVID的這個狀況\n692771\t711747\t而且這個Long Covid他其實他就會遇到他不知道去看哪一科因為科別可能包括耳鼻喉科可能包括身心科可能包括胸腔科可能包括腹腱科很不知道哪一科所以當時就希望有一個這個整合的門診那這個整合門診也符合那我現在看到審計部的報告裡面有講到\n713228\t731582\t去年11月衛福部把這個長新冠的整合門診停止可是相關的數字臺灣確診的人數目前看起來是有超過1000萬大概只有8861名有Long Covid的醫療照顧可是可能只有大概三成2669人有接受整合門診的會診的服務就這個陳議長你來看的話為什麼大概只有三成左右\n741633\t768358\t有接受折扣?你覺得原因是什麼?這一個部分我們在意只是希望他這一個不要停你希望他不要停嗎?對,我們是叫他不要停沈議長你們這看法跟我一樣那我們也希望往下再去討論他之所以停我自己覺得看起來因為他看起來他只有三成三成我就很好奇到底你是你原本門診的量能不足還是你宣傳不足還是沒有這個需求沈議長你覺得?\n770029\t796931\t因為這個我們一直對民眾的健康我們一直也很關照是所以整個剛剛委員在談的包括前面那個我們損失的立場不遺漏盡頭準得取肉數的我們更加注意所以應該這一個部分我們也是請衛福部能夠稍微再看看能夠幫忙這些\n798091\t814724\t所以我們當時提出這樣的一個意見事實上現在一直到現在都還有人在染疫只是現在媒體沒有像前面三年這樣子每天去追蹤染疫的數字或染疫的人現在還有人在染疫其實現在染疫以後還是有可能會有長新冠的狀況發生\n816405\t836031\t那如果你遇到長新冠的狀況你可能也一樣後遺症你也不知道自己到底病因是什麼地方或哪裡造成你的問題所以我非常非常同意其實到現在還是有整合門診的需求尤其是我們看到像美國CDC的這個報告裡面他說5個人裡面的COVID就有一個有Long COVID\n837352\t853594\t65歲以上的話是4個人裡面就有一個所以我們是有這個需求的所以我們也希望接下來包括像審計部裡面當然可以再以這個角度再提醒我們的衛福部不要只是以經濟效益去計算或來做這個判斷其實我們現在當下還是有這個需求\n854996\t880812\t這個不要好像變成不在那個染疫關注COVID的期間大家轉移的目標現在好像11月就草草把這些整合門整給關掉我們未來也會來追蹤但是很謝謝沈記長在你們的報告裡面其實做了這個方面的提醒那不然我也坦白說當時我們提出這個政策建議我也是在你們整合的報告裡面看到居然在11月停了可是看起來我們是還有需求\n881352\t898719\t這部分我覺得可以跟審計部我們可以一起來努力啦好我們會來追蹤整個啊衛福部對這個方面的檢討情形怎麼樣來盡量的來滿足這些發生這些不掌力的民眾的一些需求好謝謝審議長謝謝好謝謝侯委員深汗的質詢也謝謝陳審議長的備詢接下來我們請登記第13位\n","txt":"主教 請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長備詢\n王委員好呃,審議長好吼那這一次我們看到審計部針對這個111年的中央政府總預算還有紓困振興的特別決算提出這個審核的報告那我們讀了這個裡面審查的一些意見但有幾點我想要再跟審議長來做一個討論跟請教吼\n那第一個點是想跟審議長討論的是關於在紓困振興計畫上面其實在第一項意見中審查報告上面寫了一段這個他寫說這個政府辦理各項紓困\n補貼措施有助緩解受疫情影響的產業跟個人衝擊但有重複發放或補貼對象資格不符的情勢發生衍生後續追繳行政作業成本那未來如果辦理類似補貼措施的話應該要完善政策及作業規劃使政府施政更增周延\n我其實看了這一段以後我就回想到那時候包括從2020年當時在疫情一開始的時候大家就討論\n那時候規劃要做所謂的紓困金那這個紓困金要發放給民眾的時候其實大家一直講到有一類的對象我不知道沈議長還記不記得就是那些賣玉蘭花或者是在路口這個舉牌子的這些你說他是勞工嗎他其實不是正式的勞工但他確實是付出一個最底層的勞動力在工作的這個狀況\n那這些非典型的勞動的民眾其實當時大家一直在討論我們到底能用什麼方式可以把這個所謂紓困金或他們需要的資源能夠發放給他們因為他確實是當時可能受影響最大的而且是社會最邊緣的這個狀況那後來我們發現這個設計就有重重的困難因為在廣義的社會救助的體系裡面其實在制度上面這一群人其實都是被漏掉的一塊\n所以也不一定我們能夠去用所謂的中低收入戶的部分可以涵蓋他們因為他們很可能也不在中低收入戶的這個涵蓋的範圍裡面所以後來討論很久\n這個公務員其實也提到一個問題說他們有時候會有點擔心會不會有違法會不會有議領這個狀況那尤其是議領會面對審計部門的檢討那我們看到這個報告當然就檢討了這件事情可是我今天為什麼要特別提出來跟審議長討論我其實覺得這個檢討本身我覺得是有值得討論的空間的\n我們其實當初在設計這個紓困金制度的時候當時就是找不到合適的機制跟方法所以後來選擇了用所謂急難救助的做法那這個急難救助的做法它其實就是以家戶為單位嘛所以講清楚嘛\n用加匯的單位的時候可是這裡面會有很多制度不相符的問題所以那時候跟行政院談了很久最後討論必須用一個切結書一個比較彈性的方式處理這個問題但切結書當然不是一個根本處理的方法但是沒有辦法我們就沒有找到一個邏輯清楚對應到這一群人的做法其實現在我們看到這個沈議長我看到你們的表示這個\n這個審核報告中的表示裡面看到在衛福部這一項數據上面應追繳的有1億4818萬元那目前已經追繳的大概只有4000多萬元也就是大概還有1億元沒有追繳相比於其他部會的其他部會有些其實追繳的狀況程度很高有一些其實已經追繳大部分都能夠追繳到但是在這一項衛福部這一項顯然很難追繳得到\n那個沈議長我很擔心喔當你這份報告出來以後我們未來假設要再設計相關的制度的時候其實公務員的心態又會保守為什麼說怕他們保守當初其實就是因為他們很怕會發生易領的狀況所以就想要把這個機制設計的很複雜因為怕易領可是當他一設計複雜的時候就會把很多人又排除在外了沈議長你對這事情怎麼看\n行政院對發生這個疫情的時候是用從優從市重檢會很好的一個原則這個原則要能夠繼續再一直往前推後面不容好像說有人會議領其實我們這個我們查到的\n查到的不會說他是他的所得啊綜合所得啊有超過100萬以上的因為勞動部是定債50萬所以這一部分我們請他再看看因為這和我們的規定不符所以這個是有這樣的情形我這邊我要跟你討論的事情是\n其實因為我們當初用急難救助這個項目他是用家戶去算所以可能我舉個例子我們可能有一個家庭其實一個父親也許他因為他的工作的關係或他一個個性的關係其實被這個家庭給逐出去了可能他的太太小孩其實日子過得不錯但這個爸爸卻因為其實他被逐出家裡所以他的生活過得非常非常的困難\n像這種人你要他回到家裡面他回不去了他沒有辦法再接受到家裡面的幫助因為各種原因家裡面的原因把他給趕出去了可是我們需要幫助他但是在這種狀況之下我們因為用加護來計算的時候會看起來他是沒有問題的\n這是我們現在制度設計上面的盲點那也因為我們其實等於是會有很多制度設計的缺漏的問題所以我自己覺得我當時我就覺得對於有可能不一定100%精準的狀況我們應該要容錯率高一點不然我們層層設計的設計一個複雜的機制設計的要切得很乾淨\n盡量沒有容錯的機制的時候像我剛才說的這個爸爸他就會被踢出去了他就會被視為\n你沒有資格可以請領紓困金的人可是在那個當下他就是需要的人他就是我們需要幫助的人這是現在我們看到你在事後的審計的過程裡面但我知道審計是一門很重要的專業我沒有要去挑戰這件事我也都很尊重可是我覺得我們在這個相關表面的時候我也很擔心我們的公務員如果只是單純看這上面的審計報告的這樣子結論的時候\n未來我們在機制設計的時候你又把它設計的繁複又把它設計的這個排除性很高怕錯誤怕易領的話反而該幫助的人不一定幫助得到沈議長是委員這個很好大概我們第一個勞動部和我談他說我說超過100萬和我們訂的50萬訂的那個標準是超過很多這是公平的問題\n但是委員所剛剛講的有產生極難的部分我們我要勞動部也應該說這一個要怎麼樣去幫忙他這一個是我們有考慮可是我現在講的是衛福部啊因為今天就是衛福部啊都是這樣的一個情況那就再來因為從優從事重檢是政府的政策我們沒有追究任何\n一個公務人員在做這件事的人因為當時的環境也必須要這樣做但我很希望沈議長我覺得我們其實也透過疫情的過程我們再重新檢視我們這些機制有沒有缺漏的地方有沒有哪一群我們其實一直想要幫助的人可是我們既有機制一直觸及不到他們或找不到一個相對比較有邏輯清晰的路徑去觸及到他們坦白說我們發現還不少\n這是我們制度上面要去修正包括法規上面法規的邏輯要去修訂的地方我自己很希望說接下來也許像我們的審核的報告裡面或審計的報告裡面其實我們可以把這些深層的原因給點出來不只是呈現說是不是有易領、追繳等等等我自己看到說如果我們單純從這個數字的表面來看的話其實很可能公務員他就會有一個比較保守的心態盡量不要出錯\n是否是否是否\n英國人經驗很清楚他一開始的時候我給你幫助我願意可以把門開大一點寬鬆一點我讓你都進來可是你進來以後我可能做法是我也要你盡一些責任這個責任可能是你要提供一些勞務或者是你要\n所以在英國機制裡面你看到事情是說\n他們是把一開始把門開的比較大比較寬鬆比較沒那麼嚴格但他後續的機制的設計裡面他有一個蠻強的導引性的作用在那個地方我覺得都很值得我們來參考所以以後我自己是希望說我們審計部在做相關審核的時候我覺得也可以把這些事情也可以思考進去至少在我們公務部門行政部門在看到在讀的時候或在\n去做check的時候他可以有一些想法上面的刺激不然如果只是單純從表面來看的話這是我們會憂心的事情\n報告委員我們審計不會創造那個審核標準我們的審核標準完全依照行政機部門所訂出來的一個制度剛剛委員這樣講如果是這樣的制度我們完全尊重這樣的制度是但是我要提醒就是說我們在寫審核報告的時候我覺得\n不只是留於表面上面的數字這是第一點我想要跟審議長討論的第二點這個審議長我們在你們的報告裡面有看到一個部分是看到在這個紓困政績的特別預算審核報告裡面的意見的第七項有一個是針對這個COVID-19染疫康復者跨科別整合醫療照顧服務不再續判的這件事情我看到審計部其實有提供了一些意見\n那其實這個關於COVID的染疫康復者的跨科別整合醫療照顧服務其實是我在2021年10月的時候向衛福部提出一個這個建議那因為當時其實已經越來越多的染疫者在康復的經驗裡面發現他其實留下蠻多的後遺症也就是大家所謂說的長新冠就是Long COVID的這個狀況\n而且這個Long Covid他其實他就會遇到他不知道去看哪一科因為科別可能包括耳鼻喉科可能包括身心科可能包括胸腔科可能包括腹腱科很不知道哪一科所以當時就希望有一個這個整合的門診那這個整合門診也符合那我現在看到審計部的報告裡面有講到\n去年11月衛福部把這個長新冠的整合門診停止可是相關的數字臺灣確診的人數目前看起來是有超過1000萬大概只有8861名有Long Covid的醫療照顧可是可能只有大概三成2669人有接受整合門診的會診的服務就這個陳議長你來看的話為什麼大概只有三成左右\n有接受折扣?你覺得原因是什麼?這一個部分我們在意只是希望他這一個不要停你希望他不要停嗎?對,我們是叫他不要停沈議長你們這看法跟我一樣那我們也希望往下再去討論他之所以停我自己覺得看起來因為他看起來他只有三成三成我就很好奇到底你是你原本門診的量能不足還是你宣傳不足還是沒有這個需求沈議長你覺得?\n因為這個我們一直對民眾的健康我們一直也很關照是所以整個剛剛委員在談的包括前面那個我們損失的立場不遺漏盡頭準得取肉數的我們更加注意所以應該這一個部分我們也是請衛福部能夠稍微再看看能夠幫忙這些\n所以我們當時提出這樣的一個意見事實上現在一直到現在都還有人在染疫只是現在媒體沒有像前面三年這樣子每天去追蹤染疫的數字或染疫的人現在還有人在染疫其實現在染疫以後還是有可能會有長新冠的狀況發生\n那如果你遇到長新冠的狀況你可能也一樣後遺症你也不知道自己到底病因是什麼地方或哪裡造成你的問題所以我非常非常同意其實到現在還是有整合門診的需求尤其是我們看到像美國CDC的這個報告裡面他說5個人裡面的COVID就有一個有Long COVID\n65歲以上的話是4個人裡面就有一個所以我們是有這個需求的所以我們也希望接下來包括像審計部裡面當然可以再以這個角度再提醒我們的衛福部不要只是以經濟效益去計算或來做這個判斷其實我們現在當下還是有這個需求\n這個不要好像變成不在那個染疫關注COVID的期間大家轉移的目標現在好像11月就草草把這些整合門整給關掉我們未來也會來追蹤但是很謝謝沈記長在你們的報告裡面其實做了這個方面的提醒那不然我也坦白說當時我們提出這個政策建議我也是在你們整合的報告裡面看到居然在11月停了可是看起來我們是還有需求\n這部分我覺得可以跟審計部我們可以一起來努力啦好我們會來追蹤整個啊衛福部對這個方面的檢討情形怎麼樣來盡量的來滿足這些發生這些不掌力的民眾的一些需求好謝謝審議長謝謝好謝謝侯委員深汗的質詢也謝謝陳審議長的備詢接下來我們請登記第13位\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.207 --> 00:08.376\n主教請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長備詢\n\n00:18.257 --> 00:36.521\n王委員好呃,審議長好吼那這一次我們看到審計部針對這個111年的中央政府總預算還有紓困振興的特別決算提出這個審核的報告那我們讀了這個裡面審查的一些意見但有幾點我想要再跟審議長來做一個討論跟請教吼\n\n00:39.232 --> 00:54.916\n那第一個點是想跟審議長討論的是關於在紓困振興計畫上面其實在第一項意見中審查報告上面寫了一段這個他寫說這個政府辦理各項紓困\n\n00:55.749 --> 01:19.254\n補貼措施有助緩解受疫情影響的產業跟個人衝擊但有重複發放或補貼對象資格不符的情勢發生衍生後續追繳行政作業成本那未來如果辦理類似補貼措施的話應該要完善政策及作業規劃使政府施政更增周延\n\n01:20.536 --> 01:27.169\n我其實看了這一段以後我就回想到那時候包括從2020年當時在疫情一開始的時候大家就討論\n\n01:28.493 --> 01:51.972\n那時候規劃要做所謂的紓困金那這個紓困金要發放給民眾的時候其實大家一直講到有一類的對象我不知道沈議長還記不記得就是那些賣玉蘭花或者是在路口這個舉牌子的這些你說他是勞工嗎他其實不是正式的勞工但他確實是付出一個最底層的勞動力在工作的這個狀況\n\n01:53.473 --> 02:21.993\n那這些非典型的勞動的民眾其實當時大家一直在討論我們到底能用什麼方式可以把這個所謂紓困金或他們需要的資源能夠發放給他們因為他確實是當時可能受影響最大的而且是社會最邊緣的這個狀況那後來我們發現這個設計就有重重的困難因為在廣義的社會救助的體系裡面其實在制度上面這一群人其實都是被漏掉的一塊\n\n02:23.464 --> 02:31.777\n所以也不一定我們能夠去用所謂的中低收入戶的部分可以涵蓋他們因為他們很可能也不在中低收入戶的這個涵蓋的範圍裡面所以後來討論很久\n\n02:36.272 --> 02:55.946\n這個公務員其實也提到一個問題說他們有時候會有點擔心會不會有違法會不會有議領這個狀況那尤其是議領會面對審計部門的檢討那我們看到這個報告當然就檢討了這件事情可是我今天為什麼要特別提出來跟審議長討論我其實覺得這個檢討本身我覺得是有值得討論的空間的\n\n03:01.479 --> 03:17.659\n我們其實當初在設計這個紓困金制度的時候當時就是找不到合適的機制跟方法所以後來選擇了用所謂急難救助的做法那這個急難救助的做法它其實就是以家戶為單位嘛所以講清楚嘛\n\n03:18.530 --> 03:43.437\n用加匯的單位的時候可是這裡面會有很多制度不相符的問題所以那時候跟行政院談了很久最後討論必須用一個切結書一個比較彈性的方式處理這個問題但切結書當然不是一個根本處理的方法但是沒有辦法我們就沒有找到一個邏輯清楚對應到這一群人的做法其實現在我們看到這個沈議長我看到你們的表示這個\n\n03:47.090 --> 04:15.735\n這個審核報告中的表示裡面看到在衛福部這一項數據上面應追繳的有1億4818萬元那目前已經追繳的大概只有4000多萬元也就是大概還有1億元沒有追繳相比於其他部會的其他部會有些其實追繳的狀況程度很高有一些其實已經追繳大部分都能夠追繳到但是在這一項衛福部這一項顯然很難追繳得到\n\n04:17.625 --> 04:45.909\n那個沈議長我很擔心喔當你這份報告出來以後我們未來假設要再設計相關的制度的時候其實公務員的心態又會保守為什麼說怕他們保守當初其實就是因為他們很怕會發生易領的狀況所以就想要把這個機制設計的很複雜因為怕易領可是當他一設計複雜的時候就會把很多人又排除在外了沈議長你對這事情怎麼看\n\n04:47.540 --> 05:06.030\n行政院對發生這個疫情的時候是用從優從市重檢會很好的一個原則這個原則要能夠繼續再一直往前推後面不容好像說有人會議領其實我們這個我們查到的\n\n05:06.710 --> 05:27.217\n查到的不會說他是他的所得啊綜合所得啊有超過100萬以上的因為勞動部是定債50萬所以這一部分我們請他再看看因為這和我們的規定不符所以這個是有這樣的情形我這邊我要跟你討論的事情是\n\n05:29.488 --> 05:56.691\n其實因為我們當初用急難救助這個項目他是用家戶去算所以可能我舉個例子我們可能有一個家庭其實一個父親也許他因為他的工作的關係或他一個個性的關係其實被這個家庭給逐出去了可能他的太太小孩其實日子過得不錯但這個爸爸卻因為其實他被逐出家裡所以他的生活過得非常非常的困難\n\n05:58.413 --> 06:15.468\n像這種人你要他回到家裡面他回不去了他沒有辦法再接受到家裡面的幫助因為各種原因家裡面的原因把他給趕出去了可是我們需要幫助他但是在這種狀況之下我們因為用加護來計算的時候會看起來他是沒有問題的\n\n06:17.347 --> 06:36.382\n這是我們現在制度設計上面的盲點那也因為我們其實等於是會有很多制度設計的缺漏的問題所以我自己覺得我當時我就覺得對於有可能不一定100%精準的狀況我們應該要容錯率高一點不然我們層層設計的設計一個複雜的機制設計的要切得很乾淨\n\n06:40.678 --> 06:47.712\n盡量沒有容錯的機制的時候像我剛才說的這個爸爸他就會被踢出去了他就會被視為\n\n06:49.520 --> 07:12.562\n你沒有資格可以請領紓困金的人可是在那個當下他就是需要的人他就是我們需要幫助的人這是現在我們看到你在事後的審計的過程裡面但我知道審計是一門很重要的專業我沒有要去挑戰這件事我也都很尊重可是我覺得我們在這個相關表面的時候我也很擔心我們的公務員如果只是單純看這上面的審計報告的這樣子結論的時候\n\n07:14.444 --> 07:41.707\n未來我們在機制設計的時候你又把它設計的繁複又把它設計的這個排除性很高怕錯誤怕易領的話反而該幫助的人不一定幫助得到沈議長是委員這個很好大概我們第一個勞動部和我談他說我說超過100萬和我們訂的50萬訂的那個標準是超過很多這是公平的問題\n\n07:42.762 --> 08:06.974\n但是委員所剛剛講的有產生極難的部分我們我要勞動部也應該說這一個要怎麼樣去幫忙他這一個是我們有考慮可是我現在講的是衛福部啊因為今天就是衛福部啊都是這樣的一個情況那就再來因為從優從事重檢是政府的政策我們沒有追究任何\n\n08:08.094 --> 08:32.647\n一個公務人員在做這件事的人因為當時的環境也必須要這樣做但我很希望沈議長我覺得我們其實也透過疫情的過程我們再重新檢視我們這些機制有沒有缺漏的地方有沒有哪一群我們其實一直想要幫助的人可是我們既有機制一直觸及不到他們或找不到一個相對比較有邏輯清晰的路徑去觸及到他們坦白說我們發現還不少\n\n08:34.048 --> 08:58.163\n這是我們制度上面要去修正包括法規上面法規的邏輯要去修訂的地方我自己很希望說接下來也許像我們的審核的報告裡面或審計的報告裡面其實我們可以把這些深層的原因給點出來不只是呈現說是不是有易領、追繳等等等我自己看到說如果我們單純從這個數字的表面來看的話其實很可能公務員他就會有一個比較保守的心態盡量不要出錯\n\n08:58.863 --> 08:59.183\n是否是否是否\n\n09:17.108 --> 09:32.275\n英國人經驗很清楚他一開始的時候我給你幫助我願意可以把門開大一點寬鬆一點我讓你都進來可是你進來以後我可能做法是我也要你盡一些責任這個責任可能是你要提供一些勞務或者是你要\n\n09:33.171 --> 09:34.412\n所以在英國機制裡面你看到事情是說\n\n09:49.402 --> 10:13.329\n他們是把一開始把門開的比較大比較寬鬆比較沒那麼嚴格但他後續的機制的設計裡面他有一個蠻強的導引性的作用在那個地方我覺得都很值得我們來參考所以以後我自己是希望說我們審計部在做相關審核的時候我覺得也可以把這些事情也可以思考進去至少在我們公務部門行政部門在看到在讀的時候或在\n\n10:13.969 --> 10:21.379\n去做check的時候他可以有一些想法上面的刺激不然如果只是單純從表面來看的話這是我們會憂心的事情\n\n10:22.250 --> 10:43.647\n報告委員我們審計不會創造那個審核標準我們的審核標準完全依照行政機部門所訂出來的一個制度剛剛委員這樣講如果是這樣的制度我們完全尊重這樣的制度是但是我要提醒就是說我們在寫審核報告的時候我覺得\n\n10:44.841 --> 11:10.568\n不只是留於表面上面的數字這是第一點我想要跟審議長討論的第二點這個審議長我們在你們的報告裡面有看到一個部分是看到在這個紓困政績的特別預算審核報告裡面的意見的第七項有一個是針對這個COVID-19染疫康復者跨科別整合醫療照顧服務不再續判的這件事情我看到審計部其實有提供了一些意見\n\n11:11.687 --> 11:31.590\n那其實這個關於COVID的染疫康復者的跨科別整合醫療照顧服務其實是我在2021年10月的時候向衛福部提出一個這個建議那因為當時其實已經越來越多的染疫者在康復的經驗裡面發現他其實留下蠻多的後遺症也就是大家所謂說的長新冠就是LongCOVID的這個狀況\n\n11:32.771 --> 11:51.747\n而且這個LongCovid他其實他就會遇到他不知道去看哪一科因為科別可能包括耳鼻喉科可能包括身心科可能包括胸腔科可能包括腹腱科很不知道哪一科所以當時就希望有一個這個整合的門診那這個整合門診也符合那我現在看到審計部的報告裡面有講到\n\n11:53.228 --> 12:11.582\n去年11月衛福部把這個長新冠的整合門診停止可是相關的數字臺灣確診的人數目前看起來是有超過1000萬大概只有8861名有LongCovid的醫療照顧可是可能只有大概三成2669人有接受整合門診的會診的服務就這個陳議長你來看的話為什麼大概只有三成左右\n\n12:21.633 --> 12:48.358\n有接受折扣?你覺得原因是什麼?這一個部分我們在意只是希望他這一個不要停你希望他不要停嗎?對,我們是叫他不要停沈議長你們這看法跟我一樣那我們也希望往下再去討論他之所以停我自己覺得看起來因為他看起來他只有三成三成我就很好奇到底你是你原本門診的量能不足還是你宣傳不足還是沒有這個需求沈議長你覺得?\n\n12:50.029 --> 13:16.931\n因為這個我們一直對民眾的健康我們一直也很關照是所以整個剛剛委員在談的包括前面那個我們損失的立場不遺漏盡頭準得取肉數的我們更加注意所以應該這一個部分我們也是請衛福部能夠稍微再看看能夠幫忙這些\n\n13:18.091 --> 13:34.724\n所以我們當時提出這樣的一個意見事實上現在一直到現在都還有人在染疫只是現在媒體沒有像前面三年這樣子每天去追蹤染疫的數字或染疫的人現在還有人在染疫其實現在染疫以後還是有可能會有長新冠的狀況發生\n\n13:36.405 --> 13:56.031\n那如果你遇到長新冠的狀況你可能也一樣後遺症你也不知道自己到底病因是什麼地方或哪裡造成你的問題所以我非常非常同意其實到現在還是有整合門診的需求尤其是我們看到像美國CDC的這個報告裡面他說5個人裡面的COVID就有一個有LongCOVID\n\n13:57.352 --> 14:13.594\n65歲以上的話是4個人裡面就有一個所以我們是有這個需求的所以我們也希望接下來包括像審計部裡面當然可以再以這個角度再提醒我們的衛福部不要只是以經濟效益去計算或來做這個判斷其實我們現在當下還是有這個需求\n\n14:14.996 --> 14:40.812\n這個不要好像變成不在那個染疫關注COVID的期間大家轉移的目標現在好像11月就草草把這些整合門整給關掉我們未來也會來追蹤但是很謝謝沈記長在你們的報告裡面其實做了這個方面的提醒那不然我也坦白說當時我們提出這個政策建議我也是在你們整合的報告裡面看到居然在11月停了可是看起來我們是還有需求\n\n14:41.352 --> 14:58.719\n這部分我覺得可以跟審計部我們可以一起來努力啦好我們會來追蹤整個啊衛福部對這個方面的檢討情形怎麼樣來盡量的來滿足這些發生這些不掌力的民眾的一些需求好謝謝審議長謝謝好謝謝侯委員深汗的質詢也謝謝陳審議長的備詢接下來我們請登記第13位\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.207,"end":8.376,"text":"主教 請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長備詢"},{"start":18.257,"end":36.521,"text":"王委員好呃,審議長好吼那這一次我們看到審計部針對這個111年的中央政府總預算還有紓困振興的特別決算提出這個審核的報告那我們讀了這個裡面審查的一些意見但有幾點我想要再跟審議長來做一個討論跟請教吼"},{"start":39.232,"end":54.916,"text":"那第一個點是想跟審議長討論的是關於在紓困振興計畫上面其實在第一項意見中審查報告上面寫了一段這個他寫說這個政府辦理各項紓困"},{"start":55.749,"end":79.254,"text":"補貼措施有助緩解受疫情影響的產業跟個人衝擊但有重複發放或補貼對象資格不符的情勢發生衍生後續追繳行政作業成本那未來如果辦理類似補貼措施的話應該要完善政策及作業規劃使政府施政更增周延"},{"start":80.536,"end":87.169,"text":"我其實看了這一段以後我就回想到那時候包括從2020年當時在疫情一開始的時候大家就討論"},{"start":88.493,"end":111.972,"text":"那時候規劃要做所謂的紓困金那這個紓困金要發放給民眾的時候其實大家一直講到有一類的對象我不知道沈議長還記不記得就是那些賣玉蘭花或者是在路口這個舉牌子的這些你說他是勞工嗎他其實不是正式的勞工但他確實是付出一個最底層的勞動力在工作的這個狀況"},{"start":113.473,"end":141.993,"text":"那這些非典型的勞動的民眾其實當時大家一直在討論我們到底能用什麼方式可以把這個所謂紓困金或他們需要的資源能夠發放給他們因為他確實是當時可能受影響最大的而且是社會最邊緣的這個狀況那後來我們發現這個設計就有重重的困難因為在廣義的社會救助的體系裡面其實在制度上面這一群人其實都是被漏掉的一塊"},{"start":143.464,"end":151.777,"text":"所以也不一定我們能夠去用所謂的中低收入戶的部分可以涵蓋他們因為他們很可能也不在中低收入戶的這個涵蓋的範圍裡面所以後來討論很久"},{"start":156.272,"end":175.946,"text":"這個公務員其實也提到一個問題說他們有時候會有點擔心會不會有違法會不會有議領這個狀況那尤其是議領會面對審計部門的檢討那我們看到這個報告當然就檢討了這件事情可是我今天為什麼要特別提出來跟審議長討論我其實覺得這個檢討本身我覺得是有值得討論的空間的"},{"start":181.479,"end":197.659,"text":"我們其實當初在設計這個紓困金制度的時候當時就是找不到合適的機制跟方法所以後來選擇了用所謂急難救助的做法那這個急難救助的做法它其實就是以家戶為單位嘛所以講清楚嘛"},{"start":198.53,"end":223.437,"text":"用加匯的單位的時候可是這裡面會有很多制度不相符的問題所以那時候跟行政院談了很久最後討論必須用一個切結書一個比較彈性的方式處理這個問題但切結書當然不是一個根本處理的方法但是沒有辦法我們就沒有找到一個邏輯清楚對應到這一群人的做法其實現在我們看到這個沈議長我看到你們的表示這個"},{"start":227.09,"end":255.735,"text":"這個審核報告中的表示裡面看到在衛福部這一項數據上面應追繳的有1億4818萬元那目前已經追繳的大概只有4000多萬元也就是大概還有1億元沒有追繳相比於其他部會的其他部會有些其實追繳的狀況程度很高有一些其實已經追繳大部分都能夠追繳到但是在這一項衛福部這一項顯然很難追繳得到"},{"start":257.625,"end":285.909,"text":"那個沈議長我很擔心喔當你這份報告出來以後我們未來假設要再設計相關的制度的時候其實公務員的心態又會保守為什麼說怕他們保守當初其實就是因為他們很怕會發生易領的狀況所以就想要把這個機制設計的很複雜因為怕易領可是當他一設計複雜的時候就會把很多人又排除在外了沈議長你對這事情怎麼看"},{"start":287.54,"end":306.03,"text":"行政院對發生這個疫情的時候是用從優從市重檢會很好的一個原則這個原則要能夠繼續再一直往前推後面不容好像說有人會議領其實我們這個我們查到的"},{"start":306.71,"end":327.217,"text":"查到的不會說他是他的所得啊綜合所得啊有超過100萬以上的因為勞動部是定債50萬所以這一部分我們請他再看看因為這和我們的規定不符所以這個是有這樣的情形我這邊我要跟你討論的事情是"},{"start":329.488,"end":356.691,"text":"其實因為我們當初用急難救助這個項目他是用家戶去算所以可能我舉個例子我們可能有一個家庭其實一個父親也許他因為他的工作的關係或他一個個性的關係其實被這個家庭給逐出去了可能他的太太小孩其實日子過得不錯但這個爸爸卻因為其實他被逐出家裡所以他的生活過得非常非常的困難"},{"start":358.413,"end":375.468,"text":"像這種人你要他回到家裡面他回不去了他沒有辦法再接受到家裡面的幫助因為各種原因家裡面的原因把他給趕出去了可是我們需要幫助他但是在這種狀況之下我們因為用加護來計算的時候會看起來他是沒有問題的"},{"start":377.347,"end":396.382,"text":"這是我們現在制度設計上面的盲點那也因為我們其實等於是會有很多制度設計的缺漏的問題所以我自己覺得我當時我就覺得對於有可能不一定100%精準的狀況我們應該要容錯率高一點不然我們層層設計的設計一個複雜的機制設計的要切得很乾淨"},{"start":400.678,"end":407.712,"text":"盡量沒有容錯的機制的時候像我剛才說的這個爸爸他就會被踢出去了他就會被視為"},{"start":409.52,"end":432.562,"text":"你沒有資格可以請領紓困金的人可是在那個當下他就是需要的人他就是我們需要幫助的人這是現在我們看到你在事後的審計的過程裡面但我知道審計是一門很重要的專業我沒有要去挑戰這件事我也都很尊重可是我覺得我們在這個相關表面的時候我也很擔心我們的公務員如果只是單純看這上面的審計報告的這樣子結論的時候"},{"start":434.444,"end":461.707,"text":"未來我們在機制設計的時候你又把它設計的繁複又把它設計的這個排除性很高怕錯誤怕易領的話反而該幫助的人不一定幫助得到沈議長是委員這個很好大概我們第一個勞動部和我談他說我說超過100萬和我們訂的50萬訂的那個標準是超過很多這是公平的問題"},{"start":462.762,"end":486.974,"text":"但是委員所剛剛講的有產生極難的部分我們我要勞動部也應該說這一個要怎麼樣去幫忙他這一個是我們有考慮可是我現在講的是衛福部啊因為今天就是衛福部啊都是這樣的一個情況那就再來因為從優從事重檢是政府的政策我們沒有追究任何"},{"start":488.094,"end":512.647,"text":"一個公務人員在做這件事的人因為當時的環境也必須要這樣做但我很希望沈議長我覺得我們其實也透過疫情的過程我們再重新檢視我們這些機制有沒有缺漏的地方有沒有哪一群我們其實一直想要幫助的人可是我們既有機制一直觸及不到他們或找不到一個相對比較有邏輯清晰的路徑去觸及到他們坦白說我們發現還不少"},{"start":514.048,"end":538.163,"text":"這是我們制度上面要去修正包括法規上面法規的邏輯要去修訂的地方我自己很希望說接下來也許像我們的審核的報告裡面或審計的報告裡面其實我們可以把這些深層的原因給點出來不只是呈現說是不是有易領、追繳等等等我自己看到說如果我們單純從這個數字的表面來看的話其實很可能公務員他就會有一個比較保守的心態盡量不要出錯"},{"start":538.863,"end":539.183,"text":"是否是否是否"},{"start":557.108,"end":572.275,"text":"英國人經驗很清楚他一開始的時候我給你幫助我願意可以把門開大一點寬鬆一點我讓你都進來可是你進來以後我可能做法是我也要你盡一些責任這個責任可能是你要提供一些勞務或者是你要"},{"start":573.171,"end":574.412,"text":"所以在英國機制裡面你看到事情是說"},{"start":589.402,"end":613.329,"text":"他們是把一開始把門開的比較大比較寬鬆比較沒那麼嚴格但他後續的機制的設計裡面他有一個蠻強的導引性的作用在那個地方我覺得都很值得我們來參考所以以後我自己是希望說我們審計部在做相關審核的時候我覺得也可以把這些事情也可以思考進去至少在我們公務部門行政部門在看到在讀的時候或在"},{"start":613.969,"end":621.379,"text":"去做check的時候他可以有一些想法上面的刺激不然如果只是單純從表面來看的話這是我們會憂心的事情"},{"start":622.25,"end":643.647,"text":"報告委員我們審計不會創造那個審核標準我們的審核標準完全依照行政機部門所訂出來的一個制度剛剛委員這樣講如果是這樣的制度我們完全尊重這樣的制度是但是我要提醒就是說我們在寫審核報告的時候我覺得"},{"start":644.841,"end":670.568,"text":"不只是留於表面上面的數字這是第一點我想要跟審議長討論的第二點這個審議長我們在你們的報告裡面有看到一個部分是看到在這個紓困政績的特別預算審核報告裡面的意見的第七項有一個是針對這個COVID-19染疫康復者跨科別整合醫療照顧服務不再續判的這件事情我看到審計部其實有提供了一些意見"},{"start":671.687,"end":691.59,"text":"那其實這個關於COVID的染疫康復者的跨科別整合醫療照顧服務其實是我在2021年10月的時候向衛福部提出一個這個建議那因為當時其實已經越來越多的染疫者在康復的經驗裡面發現他其實留下蠻多的後遺症也就是大家所謂說的長新冠就是Long COVID的這個狀況"},{"start":692.771,"end":711.747,"text":"而且這個Long Covid他其實他就會遇到他不知道去看哪一科因為科別可能包括耳鼻喉科可能包括身心科可能包括胸腔科可能包括腹腱科很不知道哪一科所以當時就希望有一個這個整合的門診那這個整合門診也符合那我現在看到審計部的報告裡面有講到"},{"start":713.228,"end":731.582,"text":"去年11月衛福部把這個長新冠的整合門診停止可是相關的數字臺灣確診的人數目前看起來是有超過1000萬大概只有8861名有Long Covid的醫療照顧可是可能只有大概三成2669人有接受整合門診的會診的服務就這個陳議長你來看的話為什麼大概只有三成左右"},{"start":741.633,"end":768.358,"text":"有接受折扣?你覺得原因是什麼?這一個部分我們在意只是希望他這一個不要停你希望他不要停嗎?對,我們是叫他不要停沈議長你們這看法跟我一樣那我們也希望往下再去討論他之所以停我自己覺得看起來因為他看起來他只有三成三成我就很好奇到底你是你原本門診的量能不足還是你宣傳不足還是沒有這個需求沈議長你覺得?"},{"start":770.029,"end":796.931,"text":"因為這個我們一直對民眾的健康我們一直也很關照是所以整個剛剛委員在談的包括前面那個我們損失的立場不遺漏盡頭準得取肉數的我們更加注意所以應該這一個部分我們也是請衛福部能夠稍微再看看能夠幫忙這些"},{"start":798.091,"end":814.724,"text":"所以我們當時提出這樣的一個意見事實上現在一直到現在都還有人在染疫只是現在媒體沒有像前面三年這樣子每天去追蹤染疫的數字或染疫的人現在還有人在染疫其實現在染疫以後還是有可能會有長新冠的狀況發生"},{"start":816.405,"end":836.031,"text":"那如果你遇到長新冠的狀況你可能也一樣後遺症你也不知道自己到底病因是什麼地方或哪裡造成你的問題所以我非常非常同意其實到現在還是有整合門診的需求尤其是我們看到像美國CDC的這個報告裡面他說5個人裡面的COVID就有一個有Long COVID"},{"start":837.352,"end":853.594,"text":"65歲以上的話是4個人裡面就有一個所以我們是有這個需求的所以我們也希望接下來包括像審計部裡面當然可以再以這個角度再提醒我們的衛福部不要只是以經濟效益去計算或來做這個判斷其實我們現在當下還是有這個需求"},{"start":854.996,"end":880.812,"text":"這個不要好像變成不在那個染疫關注COVID的期間大家轉移的目標現在好像11月就草草把這些整合門整給關掉我們未來也會來追蹤但是很謝謝沈記長在你們的報告裡面其實做了這個方面的提醒那不然我也坦白說當時我們提出這個政策建議我也是在你們整合的報告裡面看到居然在11月停了可是看起來我們是還有需求"},{"start":881.352,"end":898.719,"text":"這部分我覺得可以跟審計部我們可以一起來努力啦好我們會來追蹤整個啊衛福部對這個方面的檢討情形怎麼樣來盡量的來滿足這些發生這些不掌力的民眾的一些需求好謝謝審議長謝謝好謝謝侯委員深汗的質詢也謝謝陳審議長的備詢接下來我們請登記第13位"}]}}}}