{"id":150849,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150849","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fcc63d6173a19051a9da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a6bf58e434f61d1a005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"15:01:19 - 15:16:54","影片長度":"00:15:35","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":935,"end_time":"2024-04-02T15:16:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T15:01:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":827,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（15時1分）謝謝主席，我請審計長。"],["主席：再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：審計長辛苦了。審計長，請教一下，我們今天主要是針對前瞻基礎建設還有111年度的審計報告，事實上這本報告在去年就出爐了，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：那我也不曉得為什麼我們的諮詢會排在這麼後面，我還以為會有最新的審計報告。去年這份報告曾經引起軒然大波，我相信當時你們也有很多的壓力，尤其前瞻計畫，在這份報告裡面呈現的就是對於各縣市政府補助款有嚴重的落差，比如說那時候臺北市才184億，但是高雄有一千兩百多億，那時曾經有這個話題，我知道其實你們壓力非常大，所以我想請教審計長，去年這樣的壓力會不會影響審計部未來對行政院，不管是公務預算或者特別預算在審計上面的尺度和標準，會不會？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不會，因為這是我們的職責，尤其透明還有課責是我們審計要執行的。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，沒有錯。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以我們會盡到我們的職責，完全沒有受到影響。"],["王委員鴻薇：去年我把這本書幾乎都翻過一遍，事實上我還蠻佩服審計部同仁的努力，所以我希望審計部能夠繼續維持這樣的功能跟責任。另外我要請教，今天我們一直在說去年的稅收超徵高達3,700億，請問一下，這個金額審計部核定了嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：112年的部分，行政院還在辦決算，他們4月底會送到監察院，監察院會交給審計部來做審核。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，所以還沒有辦核定嘛，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們到7月底才會審定出來。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，可是我告訴審計長，現在行政院、經濟部其實就已經偷跑，為什麼偷跑呢？因為昨天4月1號開始漲電價，他們要先確定行政院可以撥補給台電多少錢，所以之前已經宣布撥補1,000億，但是這個程序事實上不合相關的規定，因為審計部還沒有針對稅收超徵進行核定，可是行政院先把這1,000億撥補給台電，這個部分當然是屬於今年度的，不是在我們今天諮詢的111年度，可是我要請審計部能夠重視這個事情，不能便宜行事，為了希望能夠再縮小台電電價的漲幅，然後確定稅收超徵的撥補，所以事實上是違反相關規定，我在這邊直接先跟審計長做這樣的說明。","另外，我想請問審計長，你們現在核定的是前瞻基礎建設第3期，我看到你們報告裡面也特別提到對於地方財政的一個壓力，如果以我們現在地方財政的1期、2期、3期來看，我們當時就在講，因為前瞻8,800億，事實上，我們的地方政府要負擔一半，所以對地方政府的財政來講，是一個非常大的負擔，果不其然，今天你們的審計報告裡面，第1期我們地方政府自籌經費的比例是89%；到了第2期，只剩下84%；第3期更是後繼無力，只剩下65%。而你們核定的報告裡面有特別提到，第1期到第3期，現在我們地方政府配合前瞻基礎建設所有編列的預算，只占中央核定自籌經費的33.33%，就是三分之一的意思，所以整個前瞻基礎建設執行到現在，當然這本裡面提到很多執行效率不彰的問題，或者有一些在執行的過程中，有沒有是養蚊子的，根本沒有達成你的計畫功能等等。因此，對於地方的財政，我們審計部看到相關報告後，是不是真的有感受到地方財政要補足前瞻基礎建設要求的自籌經費，事實上是已經有後繼無力的狀況？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們有把這個意見送請行政院去注意這個情況。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，那他們有任何的改善嗎？這個經費全部編下去啊！地方就要有配合款啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：他們是說以後在核定計畫的時候，他們會注意到這件事情。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得，已經到3期了，現在才讓行政院感受到這些地方財政的辛苦，第一個，地方財政當然會希望最好中央多補一點錢給我，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：我不希望我自己自籌，這個壓力非常非常的重，而且你補助款就如同我講的，即去年我們討論了很多，我就不在這邊浪費時間，因為你們補助款也有大小眼啊！對不對？臺北市這麼少，然後高雄那麼多；我先不要講，因為我還在查，就是我們將來的治水預算還在大小眼、還在大小眼，對於中央，第一個，你不能不公平、不均；第二個，你不要拖累地方，讓地方的財政負擔過重，所以我覺得未來不管是特別預算也好，或者是公務預算，我覺得我們的審計部都要本於這樣的原則，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外有一個你們特別提到而我也覺得滿重要的，就是國防部，我們對美軍購事實上金額非常非常龐大，也編列了大筆的特別預算去採購，但是我們國防部很大方、臺灣很大方，對於美國的軍購我們都是用現金支付，這個我想審計長應該知道，可是問題來了，你現金支付之後，有一些合約會終止，比如說我用現金支付準備金，問題是合約終止，你就應該還給我，可是在你們審計部的報告裡面，到111年度，這還不含112年或者到現在，已經合約終止的，但是我們停滯在美國的準備金就高達新臺幣118億，照理說美方應該結案之後退還給臺灣，但是它沒有退還回來，未來我們還是要繼續去軍購，那這個問題怎麼解決呢？這118億我覺得要回來有它的難處，可是未來我們還是這樣，未來還是傻傻的去付這個現金，然後合約終止它還是不退給你，這118億以後不知道會不會變200億、300億、400億、500億的下去。對此，你們有要求國防部，要求他們用擔保信用狀取代現金，因為你們其實查得滿清楚，你們去查了美國軍售相關的辦法裡面，它是可以接受用擔保信用狀，對不對？可是我們軍方沒有這樣做，就是傻傻的一直付現金，然後錢也要不回來。我想請問審計長，你們有沒有追蹤這部分？國防部說：好，我們就開始來研究。請問112年度他們有用嗎？今年度他們有用嗎？下一年度……我們幾乎每年都要跟美國買軍備，這些我們如果傻傻的一直付現金，以後還不曉得有多少idle在美國還要不回來！審計長，這部分非常非常細，我希望審計部能夠繼續盯緊軍方，督導國防部，不要再做冤大頭了！如果美國可以接受擔保信用狀取代現金，我們為什麼不做？其實在你們的報告裡……後來我才看到，狀況其實非常嚴重！你們在報告裡面提到，除了那118億之外，還有時間比較久遠的，也就是100年度之前的，都已經結匯給美方。但事實上這裡面美方有一些結餘款要還給我們，你知道高達多少錢沒有還給我們嗎？50億！剛剛講的118億加50億，光是在111年度之前就超過160億應該還給我們而沒有還給我們！我們現在比較關切的是，軍購應該交給我們的武器，結果延宕，對不對？現在大家大部分都在關心這部分。由於大家很少去關心，所以我很高興、也很肯定審計部注意到這個問題。我們應該把錢要回來，卻沒有要回來！我剛剛講了，合約終止就應該把準備金還給我們，結果沒有還給我們的高達118億！還有，即便是已經結清的，當中卻還有一部分該還給我們的錢也沒有還給我們，可是軍方無力討錢！碰到美國就沒有能力討錢！所以第一，你們已經給國防部指引，說請用擔保信用狀，不要再用現金了；第二，滯存美方的結餘款50億，也應該要督促軍方討回來，可不可以？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員，50億我們已經要回來了。"],["王委員鴻薇：目前要回來了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對！至於信用……"],["王委員鴻薇：100年度以前的，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：都要回來了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對！118億這個，我們也要他趕快和美國談。至於委員剛剛講的擔保信用狀的部分，美方希望是用美國的，我們希望用兆豐的，所以這方面還在談。"],["王委員鴻薇：美方希望是用美國銀行……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：美國準備銀行的，我們希望用我們國內的信用狀，所以兩方還針對這方面做討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個要盯他們，還要儘快，好不好？不要再傻傻用現金了，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：現金都要不回來！","另外有一個議題也請審計部能幫忙去盯。最近食安連環爆，所以大家都在檢討。我們一年編列食安預算大概將近100億，前瞻計畫編列食安的部分大概有400億，甚至超過400億。既然有這麼多的預算，為什麼還會食安連環爆？像興建國家級實驗大樓、邊境查驗快速通關管理系統、增加檢驗能量等，一大堆都要錢，錢也都給了。現在碰到食安，怎麼會去擋食安的錢呢？問題是，最近就發生了，我們要蓋食安大樓，要擴增檢驗量能，最近討論最多的是米酵菌酸，我們看到衛福部在剛開始時急得跟熱鍋上的螞蟻一樣，為什麼？因為他們沒有標準品！因為檢驗必須要有標準品！後來是彰化基督教醫院來救命，說他們有，並提供給衛福部。所以大家就質疑為什麼一個衛福部比不上彰化基督教醫院？後來我們也發現有關於一些所謂的硬體建設，比如說它要蓋什麼國家級實驗大樓、食安大樓，結果出現了執行率偏低的問題，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，它在第1期就編了，但到現在還沒有，進度只達到……不過現在也已經順利了，當時是因為幾次流標，現在的進度已經快20%了。"],["王委員鴻薇：到現在20%？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：到現在才20%？所以審計部……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為前幾次都是發包不出去啦。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以審計長，你會不會覺得這個要錢時急吼吼，然後等到執行的部分，編這二十多億要去蓋大樓，我就講嘛，食安的預算沒有人敢擋它，結果呢？現在呢？它的執行率又說什麼合約期程跨年度啦要保留，就是保留預算嘛，它跟你們申請保留預算繼續執行。這個部分到目前只有20%，審計長，你會不會覺得這麼重要的一環，在整個前瞻基礎建設裡面，食安難道不是很重要的一環嗎？那你會不會覺得這個預算真的是……是不是執行的程度……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個確實是……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們有沒有給他們一些建議？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這次執行確實是進度落後了，但是因為執行的事情啊，我們發現進度落後的時候都會預警它這個部分已經落後了。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，你們有提出來，希望他們能夠加緊腳步，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝審計長。"],["主席：謝謝王委員鴻薇的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","接下來請登記第14號羅委員美玲詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政\n府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決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{\"word\": \"玲\", \"start\": 927.967, \"end\": 927.987, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,138 --> 00:00:01,518\n沈議長請教\n\n2\n00:00:20,823 --> 00:00:46,845\n這一本我們今天主要是針對包含前瞻基礎建設還有111年度的審計報告那事實上這本報告在去年就出爐了對不對那我也不曉得為什麼我們的這個諮詢會排在這麼之後我還以為有最新的審計報告去年這份報告曾經引起軒然大波我相信當時你們也有很多的壓力\n\n3\n00:00:48,166 --> 00:01:12,878\n就是當時有關於尤其前瞻計劃就是在這份報告裡面呈現的就是對於各縣市政府市上補助款有嚴重的落差比如說那時候台北市才184億但是呢高雄有1200多億所以那個時候曾經有一個話題我知道你們其實壓力非常大所以我想請教沈記長\n\n4\n00:01:15,019 --> 00:01:31,104\n這個尤其去年這樣的壓力會不會影響我們審計部未來在對行政院各個不管是公務預算或者特別預算在審計上面的你們的這些尺度和標準會不會\n\n5\n00:01:33,039 --> 00:02:01,638\n因為這是我們的主軸尤其這個透明還有客軸是我們審計要執行的所以說我們會盡到我們的主軸完全沒有受到影響我在去年我把這本書幾乎也都翻過一遍事實上我還蠻佩服我們審計部同仁的一個努力所以我希望我們審計部能夠繼續維持這樣的一個功能跟你們的這樣的責任那另外我要請教了\n\n6\n00:02:02,418 --> 00:02:07,831\n今年我們一直在說去年的稅收超徵有高達3700億請問一下這個金額審計部合定了嗎\n\n7\n00:02:12,623 --> 00:02:35,338\n如果1、2年他的行政院還在辦結算他4月底會送到監察院監察院會交給審計部來作審所以還沒有辦合定對不對我們到7月底才會審訊出來可是我告訴那個沈記長現在的這個行政院經濟部其實就已經偷跑\n\n8\n00:02:36,218 --> 00:02:50,008\n好為什麼偷跑呢因為4月1號昨天開始漲電價那麼他們要先確定行政院可以撥補給台電多少錢所以之前先宣布了撥補1000億\n\n9\n00:02:51,849 --> 00:03:19,437\n但是這個程序事實上不合相關的規定因為審計部還沒有針對稅收超徵沒有進行核定可是行政院先把這一千億先要撥補給台電所以這個部分這當然是屬於今年度的不是在我們今天在資議的這個諮詢的這個111年度可是我要請審計部能夠重視這個事情因為不能便宜行事\n\n10\n00:03:20,357 --> 00:03:44,926\n為了希望能夠再縮小台電電價的漲幅：然後確定這個稅收超車的撥補：所以事實上是違反相關規定我在這邊直接的先跟那個沈記長先做這樣的一個說明另外我想請問沈記長前瞻金屬建設現在進入就是你們現在核定是第三期\n\n11\n00:03:46,141 --> 00:04:00,202\n我看到你們報告裡面也特別提到對於地方財政的一個壓力如果以我們現在地方財政一期、二期、三期因為我們當時就在講因為前瞻\n\n12\n00:04:01,874 --> 00:04:22,080\n八千八百億事實上呢我們的地方政府要負擔一半所以對地方政府的財政來講是一個非常大的負擔所以果不其然你看到你們今天的審計報告裡面第一期我們地方政府的自籌經費的比例是89%\n\n13\n00:04:23,973 --> 00:04:50,313\n到了第二期只剩下84%第三期更是後繼無力只剩下65%而你們核定的報告裡面特別有提到就是第一期到第三期現在我們地方政府配合前瞻基礎建設那麼所有編列的預算只佔中央核定自籌經費的33.33%就是1%的意思了\n\n14\n00:04:54,286 --> 00:04:55,787\n對於地方的財政\n\n15\n00:05:14,221 --> 00:05:32,518\n我們審計部看到的相關報告是不是會真的感受到地方財產要補足潛在基礎建設要求的自籌基費事實上是已經有後立無期的狀況我們有把這個意見送請行政院去注意這個情況是\n\n16\n00:05:33,649 --> 00:05:50,659\n那他們有任何的改善嗎?因為這個經費全部編下去啊地方就要有配合款啊他們是說以後在核定計畫的時候他們會注意到這件事情我覺得啊已經到三期了現在才讓這個\n\n17\n00:05:52,967 --> 00:06:17,221\n行政院感受到這些地方財政的辛苦第一個地方財政當然會希望你最好中央多補一點錢給我對不對我不希望我自己自愁壓力非常非常的重而且你補助款就如同我這邊講因為我去年因為我們討論很多就不在這邊浪費時間你們補助款也有大小眼啊對不對台幣是這麼少然後\n\n18\n00:06:18,001 --> 00:06:38,823\n高雄那麼多我不要講我到時候我還會我還在查就是我們將來的治水預算還在大小眼喔還在大小眼就是你今天不能夠中央第一個你不能不公平不均第二個你不要拖累地方讓地方的財政負擔過重\n\n19\n00:06:39,944 --> 00:06:52,438\n所以我覺得未來不管是特別預算也好或者是公務預算我覺得我們審計不到本於這樣的原則好不好另外有一個在你們特別提到我覺得蠻重要的\n\n20\n00:06:53,240 --> 00:07:14,975\n就是對於國防部我們對美的軍購事實上金額非常非常龐大也編列了大筆的特別預算去採購但是呢我們國防部因為很大方台灣很大方對於美國的軍購我們都是用現金支付這個我想沈機長應該知道\n\n21\n00:07:15,694 --> 00:07:43,324\n可是問題來了你現金支付之後有一些他的合約會中止別說我用現金支付準備金可是問題是合約中止你就應該還給我可是以你們在審計部的報告裡面到111年度再還不含112或到現在已經合約中止但是呢我們停滯在美國的\n\n22\n00:07:44,734 --> 00:07:55,000\n這個準備金就高達新台幣118億照理說美方應該結案之後退還給台灣但是他沒有退還回來\n\n23\n00:07:55,899 --> 00:08:15,124\n那所以現在現在我們又會未來還是要繼續去買軍購那這個問題怎麼解決呢這118億啊我覺得要去要回來有它的難處可是未來我們還是這樣我們未來還是傻傻的去付這個現金然後呢合約中止他還是不退給你這118億以後不知道會不會變200億、300億、400億、500億的下去\n\n24\n00:08:19,045 --> 00:08:42,743\n所以其實你們有要求國防部要求他們用單保信用賺取代現金因為你們其實查得蠻清楚因為你們去查了美國的相關的軍售的相關的他的辦法裡面他是可以接受用單保信用賺對不對可是我們軍方沒有就是這樣傻傻的一直付現金然後錢也要不回來那我想請問沈記長\n\n25\n00:08:44,804 --> 00:09:09,284\n你們這個部分有沒有追蹤呢?國防部說好啊那我們就開始來研究啊那麼112年度他們有用嗎?今年度他們有用嗎?下一年度我們幾乎每一年都要跟美國去買軍之獸啊這些我們如果是傻傻的一直用現金那麼以後還不曉得有多少idol在美國都要不回來\n\n26\n00:09:10,285 --> 00:09:31,401\n所以沈記長這個部分因為這裡面非常非常細我也希望審計部能夠繼續的去盯緊軍方督導國防部不要再做冤大頭啦如果美國可以接受擔保信用狀取代現金我們為什麼不做更何況其實呢\n\n27\n00:09:33,942 --> 00:10:02,115\n在你們的報告裡面後來我才看到其實狀況非常嚴重這也是你們報告裡面除了那118億之外我們還有這個時間比較久也100年度之前我們都已經結會給美方但是呢美方事實上這裡面有一些他要結一塊也是要還給我們的高達多少錢他沒有還給我們你知道嗎\n\n28\n00:10:05,409 --> 00:10:28,946\n50億所以我剛要講118億加50億你看光是在111年度之前就有超過160億應該還給我們而沒有還給我們我們現在都比較關切的是你軍購你應該交給我們武器你延宕對不對我們現在大部分大家都在關心這個部分\n\n29\n00:10:29,912 --> 00:10:57,409\n可是大家很少去關心所以我也很高興我也很肯定省進部注意到這個問題我們錢應該要回來卻沒有要回來我剛才講了合約中止就應該把準備金還給我沒有還給我高達118億還有就是我已經跟你都結親可是這有一些部分你的錢要還給我的也沒有還給我\n\n30\n00:10:58,790 --> 00:11:22,098\n軍方都無力去討錢捏它碰到美國沒有能力去討錢所以第一個部分你們已經給國防部一個指引說請你用擔保信用狀不要再用現金了第二部分那麼現在自存美方的這個結餘款50億這也應該要督促軍方要把它討回來可不可以\n\n31\n00:11:23,103 --> 00:11:50,310\n報告委員,那個50億我們已經要回來了目前就要回來了嗎?這是一百年度以前的,對不對?都要回來了對,118億的這個我們也要他趕快和美國談注意剛剛講的擔保信用帳那一個部分美方希望是用它美國的我們希望用我們造風這一方面所以這邊這個方面還在談\n\n32\n00:11:51,530 --> 00:12:16,993\n所以他美方希望是用美方的銀行用他美國準備銀行的那我們是希望用我們國內的信用狀所以兩方還在這方面的討論這個要盯他們要盡快好不好不要再傻傻用現金了好不好但要現金都要不回來好另外有一個議題也請審計部呢也是幫忙能夠去盯最近呢我們食安聯環報\n\n33\n00:12:18,835 --> 00:12:31,070\n那麼大家都在檢討說不管是我們一年編列食安的預算大概一年將近100億或者前瞻編列食安的部分大概400億超過400億那為什麼這麼多的預算還會食安連環保\n\n34\n00:12:36,457 --> 00:12:59,369\n包括這些我們要興建國家級的實驗大樓我們要對編輯查驗快速通關的管理系統我們要增加我們的檢驗能量一大堆都要錢那麼錢都給了碰到食安怎麼會去擋食安的錢呢可是問題是最近就發生了\n\n35\n00:13:00,779 --> 00:13:21,730\n我們要做實案大樓我們要擴增我們的檢驗的量呢那最近大家討論最多的米酵菌栓那麼竟然發現整個衛福部剛開始呢他們急得跟熱鍋上螞蟻一樣為什麼他們沒有標準品\n\n36\n00:13:22,350 --> 00:13:47,011\n因為你到去檢驗你必須要有標準品後來呢是彰化基督教醫院來救命啊他說我們有提供給衛福部所以大家就質疑為什麼一個衛福部你比不上一個彰化基督教醫院那麼後來我們也發現這些有關於一些所謂的硬體建設比如說他要蓋什麼國家級實驗大樓、食安大樓\n\n37\n00:13:49,233 --> 00:14:14,163\n結果出現了他的執行率偏低的問題對不對對這個因為他第一期就編了到現在還沒有進度到現在已經順利當時是幾次的流標了現在已經進度已經快百分之二十了到現在百分之二十對到現在才百分之二十因為前幾次都是發發不出去\n\n38\n00:14:15,305 --> 00:14:30,646\n所以沈議長你會不會覺得這個要錢急吼吼然後呢等到執行的部分然後要這個20多億要去蓋大樓我就講嘛食安的預算沒有人敢擋它結果呢現在呢\n\n39\n00:14:31,187 --> 00:14:34,749\n你會覺得在整個這麼重要的一環整個前瞻基礎建設裡面食安難道不是很重要的一環嗎\n\n40\n00:14:58,763 --> 00:15:18,952\n那你會不會覺得這個預算真的是是不是執行的程度你們有沒有給他們一些建議這次執行是確實進度落後了但是因為執行的事情我們發現進度落後的時候都會預警他你這個部分落後了對你們有提出\n\n41\n00:15:24,281 --> 00:15:27,987\n好謝謝王委員宏威的詢問也謝謝陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第14號羅委員美玲\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1138\t1518\t沈議長請教\n20823\t46845\t這一本我們今天主要是針對包含前瞻基礎建設還有111年度的審計報告那事實上這本報告在去年就出爐了對不對那我也不曉得為什麼我們的這個諮詢會排在這麼之後我還以為有最新的審計報告去年這份報告曾經引起軒然大波我相信當時你們也有很多的壓力\n48166\t72878\t就是當時有關於尤其前瞻計劃就是在這份報告裡面呈現的就是對於各縣市政府市上補助款有嚴重的落差比如說那時候台北市才184億但是呢高雄有1200多億所以那個時候曾經有一個話題我知道你們其實壓力非常大所以我想請教沈記長\n75019\t91104\t這個尤其去年這樣的壓力會不會影響我們審計部未來在對行政院各個不管是公務預算或者特別預算在審計上面的你們的這些尺度和標準會不會\n93039\t121638\t因為這是我們的主軸尤其這個透明還有客軸是我們審計要執行的所以說我們會盡到我們的主軸完全沒有受到影響我在去年我把這本書幾乎也都翻過一遍事實上我還蠻佩服我們審計部同仁的一個努力所以我希望我們審計部能夠繼續維持這樣的一個功能跟你們的這樣的責任那另外我要請教了\n122418\t127831\t今年我們一直在說去年的稅收超徵有高達3700億請問一下這個金額審計部合定了嗎\n132623\t155338\t如果1、2年他的行政院還在辦結算他4月底會送到監察院監察院會交給審計部來作審所以還沒有辦合定對不對我們到7月底才會審訊出來可是我告訴那個沈記長現在的這個行政院經濟部其實就已經偷跑\n156218\t170008\t好為什麼偷跑呢因為4月1號昨天開始漲電價那麼他們要先確定行政院可以撥補給台電多少錢所以之前先宣布了撥補1000億\n171849\t199437\t但是這個程序事實上不合相關的規定因為審計部還沒有針對稅收超徵沒有進行核定可是行政院先把這一千億先要撥補給台電所以這個部分這當然是屬於今年度的不是在我們今天在資議的這個諮詢的這個111年度可是我要請審計部能夠重視這個事情因為不能便宜行事\n200357\t224926\t為了希望能夠再縮小台電電價的漲幅：然後確定這個稅收超車的撥補：所以事實上是違反相關規定我在這邊直接的先跟那個沈記長先做這樣的一個說明另外我想請問沈記長前瞻金屬建設現在進入就是你們現在核定是第三期\n226141\t240202\t我看到你們報告裡面也特別提到對於地方財政的一個壓力如果以我們現在地方財政一期、二期、三期因為我們當時就在講因為前瞻\n241874\t262080\t八千八百億事實上呢我們的地方政府要負擔一半所以對地方政府的財政來講是一個非常大的負擔所以果不其然你看到你們今天的審計報告裡面第一期我們地方政府的自籌經費的比例是89%\n263973\t290313\t到了第二期只剩下84%第三期更是後繼無力只剩下65%而你們核定的報告裡面特別有提到就是第一期到第三期現在我們地方政府配合前瞻基礎建設那麼所有編列的預算只佔中央核定自籌經費的33.33%就是1%的意思了\n294286\t295787\t對於地方的財政\n314221\t332518\t我們審計部看到的相關報告是不是會真的感受到地方財產要補足潛在基礎建設要求的自籌基費事實上是已經有後立無期的狀況我們有把這個意見送請行政院去注意這個情況是\n333649\t350659\t那他們有任何的改善嗎?因為這個經費全部編下去啊地方就要有配合款啊他們是說以後在核定計畫的時候他們會注意到這件事情我覺得啊已經到三期了現在才讓這個\n352967\t377221\t行政院感受到這些地方財政的辛苦第一個地方財政當然會希望你最好中央多補一點錢給我對不對我不希望我自己自愁壓力非常非常的重而且你補助款就如同我這邊講因為我去年因為我們討論很多就不在這邊浪費時間你們補助款也有大小眼啊對不對台幣是這麼少然後\n378001\t398823\t高雄那麼多我不要講我到時候我還會我還在查就是我們將來的治水預算還在大小眼喔還在大小眼就是你今天不能夠中央第一個你不能不公平不均第二個你不要拖累地方讓地方的財政負擔過重\n399944\t412438\t所以我覺得未來不管是特別預算也好或者是公務預算我覺得我們審計不到本於這樣的原則好不好另外有一個在你們特別提到我覺得蠻重要的\n413240\t434975\t就是對於國防部我們對美的軍購事實上金額非常非常龐大也編列了大筆的特別預算去採購但是呢我們國防部因為很大方台灣很大方對於美國的軍購我們都是用現金支付這個我想沈機長應該知道\n435694\t463324\t可是問題來了你現金支付之後有一些他的合約會中止別說我用現金支付準備金可是問題是合約中止你就應該還給我可是以你們在審計部的報告裡面到111年度再還不含112或到現在已經合約中止但是呢我們停滯在美國的\n464734\t475000\t這個準備金就高達新台幣118億照理說美方應該結案之後退還給台灣但是他沒有退還回來\n475899\t495124\t那所以現在現在我們又會未來還是要繼續去買軍購那這個問題怎麼解決呢這118億啊我覺得要去要回來有它的難處可是未來我們還是這樣我們未來還是傻傻的去付這個現金然後呢合約中止他還是不退給你這118億以後不知道會不會變200億、300億、400億、500億的下去\n499045\t522743\t所以其實你們有要求國防部要求他們用單保信用賺取代現金因為你們其實查得蠻清楚因為你們去查了美國的相關的軍售的相關的他的辦法裡面他是可以接受用單保信用賺對不對可是我們軍方沒有就是這樣傻傻的一直付現金然後錢也要不回來那我想請問沈記長\n524804\t549284\t你們這個部分有沒有追蹤呢?國防部說好啊那我們就開始來研究啊那麼112年度他們有用嗎?今年度他們有用嗎?下一年度我們幾乎每一年都要跟美國去買軍之獸啊這些我們如果是傻傻的一直用現金那麼以後還不曉得有多少idol在美國都要不回來\n550285\t571401\t所以沈記長這個部分因為這裡面非常非常細我也希望審計部能夠繼續的去盯緊軍方督導國防部不要再做冤大頭啦如果美國可以接受擔保信用狀取代現金我們為什麼不做更何況其實呢\n573942\t602115\t在你們的報告裡面後來我才看到其實狀況非常嚴重這也是你們報告裡面除了那118億之外我們還有這個時間比較久也100年度之前我們都已經結會給美方但是呢美方事實上這裡面有一些他要結一塊也是要還給我們的高達多少錢他沒有還給我們你知道嗎\n605409\t628946\t50億所以我剛要講118億加50億你看光是在111年度之前就有超過160億應該還給我們而沒有還給我們我們現在都比較關切的是你軍購你應該交給我們武器你延宕對不對我們現在大部分大家都在關心這個部分\n629912\t657409\t可是大家很少去關心所以我也很高興我也很肯定省進部注意到這個問題我們錢應該要回來卻沒有要回來我剛才講了合約中止就應該把準備金還給我沒有還給我高達118億還有就是我已經跟你都結親可是這有一些部分你的錢要還給我的也沒有還給我\n658790\t682098\t軍方都無力去討錢捏它碰到美國沒有能力去討錢所以第一個部分你們已經給國防部一個指引說請你用擔保信用狀不要再用現金了第二部分那麼現在自存美方的這個結餘款50億這也應該要督促軍方要把它討回來可不可以\n683103\t710310\t報告委員,那個50億我們已經要回來了目前就要回來了嗎?這是一百年度以前的,對不對?都要回來了對,118億的這個我們也要他趕快和美國談注意剛剛講的擔保信用帳那一個部分美方希望是用它美國的我們希望用我們造風這一方面所以這邊這個方面還在談\n711530\t736993\t所以他美方希望是用美方的銀行用他美國準備銀行的那我們是希望用我們國內的信用狀所以兩方還在這方面的討論這個要盯他們要盡快好不好不要再傻傻用現金了好不好但要現金都要不回來好另外有一個議題也請審計部呢也是幫忙能夠去盯最近呢我們食安聯環報\n738835\t751070\t那麼大家都在檢討說不管是我們一年編列食安的預算大概一年將近100億或者前瞻編列食安的部分大概400億超過400億那為什麼這麼多的預算還會食安連環保\n756457\t779369\t包括這些我們要興建國家級的實驗大樓我們要對編輯查驗快速通關的管理系統我們要增加我們的檢驗能量一大堆都要錢那麼錢都給了碰到食安怎麼會去擋食安的錢呢可是問題是最近就發生了\n780779\t801730\t我們要做實案大樓我們要擴增我們的檢驗的量呢那最近大家討論最多的米酵菌栓那麼竟然發現整個衛福部剛開始呢他們急得跟熱鍋上螞蟻一樣為什麼他們沒有標準品\n802350\t827011\t因為你到去檢驗你必須要有標準品後來呢是彰化基督教醫院來救命啊他說我們有提供給衛福部所以大家就質疑為什麼一個衛福部你比不上一個彰化基督教醫院那麼後來我們也發現這些有關於一些所謂的硬體建設比如說他要蓋什麼國家級實驗大樓、食安大樓\n829233\t854163\t結果出現了他的執行率偏低的問題對不對對這個因為他第一期就編了到現在還沒有進度到現在已經順利當時是幾次的流標了現在已經進度已經快百分之二十了到現在百分之二十對到現在才百分之二十因為前幾次都是發發不出去\n855305\t870646\t所以沈議長你會不會覺得這個要錢急吼吼然後呢等到執行的部分然後要這個20多億要去蓋大樓我就講嘛食安的預算沒有人敢擋它結果呢現在呢\n871187\t874749\t你會覺得在整個這麼重要的一環整個前瞻基礎建設裡面食安難道不是很重要的一環嗎\n898763\t918952\t那你會不會覺得這個預算真的是是不是執行的程度你們有沒有給他們一些建議這次執行是確實進度落後了但是因為執行的事情我們發現進度落後的時候都會預警他你這個部分落後了對你們有提出\n924281\t927987\t好謝謝王委員宏威的詢問也謝謝陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第14號羅委員美玲\n","txt":"沈議長請教\n這一本我們今天主要是針對包含前瞻基礎建設還有111年度的審計報告那事實上這本報告在去年就出爐了對不對那我也不曉得為什麼我們的這個諮詢會排在這麼之後我還以為有最新的審計報告去年這份報告曾經引起軒然大波我相信當時你們也有很多的壓力\n就是當時有關於尤其前瞻計劃就是在這份報告裡面呈現的就是對於各縣市政府市上補助款有嚴重的落差比如說那時候台北市才184億但是呢高雄有1200多億所以那個時候曾經有一個話題我知道你們其實壓力非常大所以我想請教沈記長\n這個尤其去年這樣的壓力會不會影響我們審計部未來在對行政院各個不管是公務預算或者特別預算在審計上面的你們的這些尺度和標準會不會\n因為這是我們的主軸尤其這個透明還有客軸是我們審計要執行的所以說我們會盡到我們的主軸完全沒有受到影響我在去年我把這本書幾乎也都翻過一遍事實上我還蠻佩服我們審計部同仁的一個努力所以我希望我們審計部能夠繼續維持這樣的一個功能跟你們的這樣的責任那另外我要請教了\n今年我們一直在說去年的稅收超徵有高達3700億請問一下這個金額審計部合定了嗎\n如果1、2年他的行政院還在辦結算他4月底會送到監察院監察院會交給審計部來作審所以還沒有辦合定對不對我們到7月底才會審訊出來可是我告訴那個沈記長現在的這個行政院經濟部其實就已經偷跑\n好為什麼偷跑呢因為4月1號昨天開始漲電價那麼他們要先確定行政院可以撥補給台電多少錢所以之前先宣布了撥補1000億\n但是這個程序事實上不合相關的規定因為審計部還沒有針對稅收超徵沒有進行核定可是行政院先把這一千億先要撥補給台電所以這個部分這當然是屬於今年度的不是在我們今天在資議的這個諮詢的這個111年度可是我要請審計部能夠重視這個事情因為不能便宜行事\n為了希望能夠再縮小台電電價的漲幅：然後確定這個稅收超車的撥補：所以事實上是違反相關規定我在這邊直接的先跟那個沈記長先做這樣的一個說明另外我想請問沈記長前瞻金屬建設現在進入就是你們現在核定是第三期\n我看到你們報告裡面也特別提到對於地方財政的一個壓力如果以我們現在地方財政一期、二期、三期因為我們當時就在講因為前瞻\n八千八百億事實上呢我們的地方政府要負擔一半所以對地方政府的財政來講是一個非常大的負擔所以果不其然你看到你們今天的審計報告裡面第一期我們地方政府的自籌經費的比例是89%\n到了第二期只剩下84%第三期更是後繼無力只剩下65%而你們核定的報告裡面特別有提到就是第一期到第三期現在我們地方政府配合前瞻基礎建設那麼所有編列的預算只佔中央核定自籌經費的33.33%就是1%的意思了\n對於地方的財政\n我們審計部看到的相關報告是不是會真的感受到地方財產要補足潛在基礎建設要求的自籌基費事實上是已經有後立無期的狀況我們有把這個意見送請行政院去注意這個情況是\n那他們有任何的改善嗎?因為這個經費全部編下去啊地方就要有配合款啊他們是說以後在核定計畫的時候他們會注意到這件事情我覺得啊已經到三期了現在才讓這個\n行政院感受到這些地方財政的辛苦第一個地方財政當然會希望你最好中央多補一點錢給我對不對我不希望我自己自愁壓力非常非常的重而且你補助款就如同我這邊講因為我去年因為我們討論很多就不在這邊浪費時間你們補助款也有大小眼啊對不對台幣是這麼少然後\n高雄那麼多我不要講我到時候我還會我還在查就是我們將來的治水預算還在大小眼喔還在大小眼就是你今天不能夠中央第一個你不能不公平不均第二個你不要拖累地方讓地方的財政負擔過重\n所以我覺得未來不管是特別預算也好或者是公務預算我覺得我們審計不到本於這樣的原則好不好另外有一個在你們特別提到我覺得蠻重要的\n就是對於國防部我們對美的軍購事實上金額非常非常龐大也編列了大筆的特別預算去採購但是呢我們國防部因為很大方台灣很大方對於美國的軍購我們都是用現金支付這個我想沈機長應該知道\n可是問題來了你現金支付之後有一些他的合約會中止別說我用現金支付準備金可是問題是合約中止你就應該還給我可是以你們在審計部的報告裡面到111年度再還不含112或到現在已經合約中止但是呢我們停滯在美國的\n這個準備金就高達新台幣118億照理說美方應該結案之後退還給台灣但是他沒有退還回來\n那所以現在現在我們又會未來還是要繼續去買軍購那這個問題怎麼解決呢這118億啊我覺得要去要回來有它的難處可是未來我們還是這樣我們未來還是傻傻的去付這個現金然後呢合約中止他還是不退給你這118億以後不知道會不會變200億、300億、400億、500億的下去\n所以其實你們有要求國防部要求他們用單保信用賺取代現金因為你們其實查得蠻清楚因為你們去查了美國的相關的軍售的相關的他的辦法裡面他是可以接受用單保信用賺對不對可是我們軍方沒有就是這樣傻傻的一直付現金然後錢也要不回來那我想請問沈記長\n你們這個部分有沒有追蹤呢?國防部說好啊那我們就開始來研究啊那麼112年度他們有用嗎?今年度他們有用嗎?下一年度我們幾乎每一年都要跟美國去買軍之獸啊這些我們如果是傻傻的一直用現金那麼以後還不曉得有多少idol在美國都要不回來\n所以沈記長這個部分因為這裡面非常非常細我也希望審計部能夠繼續的去盯緊軍方督導國防部不要再做冤大頭啦如果美國可以接受擔保信用狀取代現金我們為什麼不做更何況其實呢\n在你們的報告裡面後來我才看到其實狀況非常嚴重這也是你們報告裡面除了那118億之外我們還有這個時間比較久也100年度之前我們都已經結會給美方但是呢美方事實上這裡面有一些他要結一塊也是要還給我們的高達多少錢他沒有還給我們你知道嗎\n50億所以我剛要講118億加50億你看光是在111年度之前就有超過160億應該還給我們而沒有還給我們我們現在都比較關切的是你軍購你應該交給我們武器你延宕對不對我們現在大部分大家都在關心這個部分\n可是大家很少去關心所以我也很高興我也很肯定省進部注意到這個問題我們錢應該要回來卻沒有要回來我剛才講了合約中止就應該把準備金還給我沒有還給我高達118億還有就是我已經跟你都結親可是這有一些部分你的錢要還給我的也沒有還給我\n軍方都無力去討錢捏它碰到美國沒有能力去討錢所以第一個部分你們已經給國防部一個指引說請你用擔保信用狀不要再用現金了第二部分那麼現在自存美方的這個結餘款50億這也應該要督促軍方要把它討回來可不可以\n報告委員,那個50億我們已經要回來了目前就要回來了嗎?這是一百年度以前的,對不對?都要回來了對,118億的這個我們也要他趕快和美國談注意剛剛講的擔保信用帳那一個部分美方希望是用它美國的我們希望用我們造風這一方面所以這邊這個方面還在談\n所以他美方希望是用美方的銀行用他美國準備銀行的那我們是希望用我們國內的信用狀所以兩方還在這方面的討論這個要盯他們要盡快好不好不要再傻傻用現金了好不好但要現金都要不回來好另外有一個議題也請審計部呢也是幫忙能夠去盯最近呢我們食安聯環報\n那麼大家都在檢討說不管是我們一年編列食安的預算大概一年將近100億或者前瞻編列食安的部分大概400億超過400億那為什麼這麼多的預算還會食安連環保\n包括這些我們要興建國家級的實驗大樓我們要對編輯查驗快速通關的管理系統我們要增加我們的檢驗能量一大堆都要錢那麼錢都給了碰到食安怎麼會去擋食安的錢呢可是問題是最近就發生了\n我們要做實案大樓我們要擴增我們的檢驗的量呢那最近大家討論最多的米酵菌栓那麼竟然發現整個衛福部剛開始呢他們急得跟熱鍋上螞蟻一樣為什麼他們沒有標準品\n因為你到去檢驗你必須要有標準品後來呢是彰化基督教醫院來救命啊他說我們有提供給衛福部所以大家就質疑為什麼一個衛福部你比不上一個彰化基督教醫院那麼後來我們也發現這些有關於一些所謂的硬體建設比如說他要蓋什麼國家級實驗大樓、食安大樓\n結果出現了他的執行率偏低的問題對不對對這個因為他第一期就編了到現在還沒有進度到現在已經順利當時是幾次的流標了現在已經進度已經快百分之二十了到現在百分之二十對到現在才百分之二十因為前幾次都是發發不出去\n所以沈議長你會不會覺得這個要錢急吼吼然後呢等到執行的部分然後要這個20多億要去蓋大樓我就講嘛食安的預算沒有人敢擋它結果呢現在呢\n你會覺得在整個這麼重要的一環整個前瞻基礎建設裡面食安難道不是很重要的一環嗎\n那你會不會覺得這個預算真的是是不是執行的程度你們有沒有給他們一些建議這次執行是確實進度落後了但是因為執行的事情我們發現進度落後的時候都會預警他你這個部分落後了對你們有提出\n好謝謝王委員宏威的詢問也謝謝陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第14號羅委員美玲\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.138 --> 00:01.518\n沈議長請教\n\n00:20.823 --> 00:46.845\n這一本我們今天主要是針對包含前瞻基礎建設還有111年度的審計報告那事實上這本報告在去年就出爐了對不對那我也不曉得為什麼我們的這個諮詢會排在這麼之後我還以為有最新的審計報告去年這份報告曾經引起軒然大波我相信當時你們也有很多的壓力\n\n00:48.166 --> 01:12.878\n就是當時有關於尤其前瞻計劃就是在這份報告裡面呈現的就是對於各縣市政府市上補助款有嚴重的落差比如說那時候台北市才184億但是呢高雄有1200多億所以那個時候曾經有一個話題我知道你們其實壓力非常大所以我想請教沈記長\n\n01:15.019 --> 01:31.104\n這個尤其去年這樣的壓力會不會影響我們審計部未來在對行政院各個不管是公務預算或者特別預算在審計上面的你們的這些尺度和標準會不會\n\n01:33.039 --> 02:01.638\n因為這是我們的主軸尤其這個透明還有客軸是我們審計要執行的所以說我們會盡到我們的主軸完全沒有受到影響我在去年我把這本書幾乎也都翻過一遍事實上我還蠻佩服我們審計部同仁的一個努力所以我希望我們審計部能夠繼續維持這樣的一個功能跟你們的這樣的責任那另外我要請教了\n\n02:02.418 --> 02:07.831\n今年我們一直在說去年的稅收超徵有高達3700億請問一下這個金額審計部合定了嗎\n\n02:12.623 --> 02:35.338\n如果1、2年他的行政院還在辦結算他4月底會送到監察院監察院會交給審計部來作審所以還沒有辦合定對不對我們到7月底才會審訊出來可是我告訴那個沈記長現在的這個行政院經濟部其實就已經偷跑\n\n02:36.218 --> 02:50.008\n好為什麼偷跑呢因為4月1號昨天開始漲電價那麼他們要先確定行政院可以撥補給台電多少錢所以之前先宣布了撥補1000億\n\n02:51.849 --> 03:19.437\n但是這個程序事實上不合相關的規定因為審計部還沒有針對稅收超徵沒有進行核定可是行政院先把這一千億先要撥補給台電所以這個部分這當然是屬於今年度的不是在我們今天在資議的這個諮詢的這個111年度可是我要請審計部能夠重視這個事情因為不能便宜行事\n\n03:20.357 --> 03:44.926\n為了希望能夠再縮小台電電價的漲幅：然後確定這個稅收超車的撥補：所以事實上是違反相關規定我在這邊直接的先跟那個沈記長先做這樣的一個說明另外我想請問沈記長前瞻金屬建設現在進入就是你們現在核定是第三期\n\n03:46.141 --> 04:00.202\n我看到你們報告裡面也特別提到對於地方財政的一個壓力如果以我們現在地方財政一期、二期、三期因為我們當時就在講因為前瞻\n\n04:01.874 --> 04:22.080\n八千八百億事實上呢我們的地方政府要負擔一半所以對地方政府的財政來講是一個非常大的負擔所以果不其然你看到你們今天的審計報告裡面第一期我們地方政府的自籌經費的比例是89%\n\n04:23.973 --> 04:50.313\n到了第二期只剩下84%第三期更是後繼無力只剩下65%而你們核定的報告裡面特別有提到就是第一期到第三期現在我們地方政府配合前瞻基礎建設那麼所有編列的預算只佔中央核定自籌經費的33.33%就是1%的意思了\n\n04:54.286 --> 04:55.787\n對於地方的財政\n\n05:14.221 --> 05:32.518\n我們審計部看到的相關報告是不是會真的感受到地方財產要補足潛在基礎建設要求的自籌基費事實上是已經有後立無期的狀況我們有把這個意見送請行政院去注意這個情況是\n\n05:33.649 --> 05:50.659\n那他們有任何的改善嗎?因為這個經費全部編下去啊地方就要有配合款啊他們是說以後在核定計畫的時候他們會注意到這件事情我覺得啊已經到三期了現在才讓這個\n\n05:52.967 --> 06:17.221\n行政院感受到這些地方財政的辛苦第一個地方財政當然會希望你最好中央多補一點錢給我對不對我不希望我自己自愁壓力非常非常的重而且你補助款就如同我這邊講因為我去年因為我們討論很多就不在這邊浪費時間你們補助款也有大小眼啊對不對台幣是這麼少然後\n\n06:18.001 --> 06:38.823\n高雄那麼多我不要講我到時候我還會我還在查就是我們將來的治水預算還在大小眼喔還在大小眼就是你今天不能夠中央第一個你不能不公平不均第二個你不要拖累地方讓地方的財政負擔過重\n\n06:39.944 --> 06:52.438\n所以我覺得未來不管是特別預算也好或者是公務預算我覺得我們審計不到本於這樣的原則好不好另外有一個在你們特別提到我覺得蠻重要的\n\n06:53.240 --> 07:14.975\n就是對於國防部我們對美的軍購事實上金額非常非常龐大也編列了大筆的特別預算去採購但是呢我們國防部因為很大方台灣很大方對於美國的軍購我們都是用現金支付這個我想沈機長應該知道\n\n07:15.694 --> 07:43.324\n可是問題來了你現金支付之後有一些他的合約會中止別說我用現金支付準備金可是問題是合約中止你就應該還給我可是以你們在審計部的報告裡面到111年度再還不含112或到現在已經合約中止但是呢我們停滯在美國的\n\n07:44.734 --> 07:55.000\n這個準備金就高達新台幣118億照理說美方應該結案之後退還給台灣但是他沒有退還回來\n\n07:55.899 --> 08:15.124\n那所以現在現在我們又會未來還是要繼續去買軍購那這個問題怎麼解決呢這118億啊我覺得要去要回來有它的難處可是未來我們還是這樣我們未來還是傻傻的去付這個現金然後呢合約中止他還是不退給你這118億以後不知道會不會變200億、300億、400億、500億的下去\n\n08:19.045 --> 08:42.743\n所以其實你們有要求國防部要求他們用單保信用賺取代現金因為你們其實查得蠻清楚因為你們去查了美國的相關的軍售的相關的他的辦法裡面他是可以接受用單保信用賺對不對可是我們軍方沒有就是這樣傻傻的一直付現金然後錢也要不回來那我想請問沈記長\n\n08:44.804 --> 09:09.284\n你們這個部分有沒有追蹤呢?國防部說好啊那我們就開始來研究啊那麼112年度他們有用嗎?今年度他們有用嗎?下一年度我們幾乎每一年都要跟美國去買軍之獸啊這些我們如果是傻傻的一直用現金那麼以後還不曉得有多少idol在美國都要不回來\n\n09:10.285 --> 09:31.401\n所以沈記長這個部分因為這裡面非常非常細我也希望審計部能夠繼續的去盯緊軍方督導國防部不要再做冤大頭啦如果美國可以接受擔保信用狀取代現金我們為什麼不做更何況其實呢\n\n09:33.942 --> 10:02.115\n在你們的報告裡面後來我才看到其實狀況非常嚴重這也是你們報告裡面除了那118億之外我們還有這個時間比較久也100年度之前我們都已經結會給美方但是呢美方事實上這裡面有一些他要結一塊也是要還給我們的高達多少錢他沒有還給我們你知道嗎\n\n10:05.409 --> 10:28.946\n50億所以我剛要講118億加50億你看光是在111年度之前就有超過160億應該還給我們而沒有還給我們我們現在都比較關切的是你軍購你應該交給我們武器你延宕對不對我們現在大部分大家都在關心這個部分\n\n10:29.912 --> 10:57.409\n可是大家很少去關心所以我也很高興我也很肯定省進部注意到這個問題我們錢應該要回來卻沒有要回來我剛才講了合約中止就應該把準備金還給我沒有還給我高達118億還有就是我已經跟你都結親可是這有一些部分你的錢要還給我的也沒有還給我\n\n10:58.790 --> 11:22.098\n軍方都無力去討錢捏它碰到美國沒有能力去討錢所以第一個部分你們已經給國防部一個指引說請你用擔保信用狀不要再用現金了第二部分那麼現在自存美方的這個結餘款50億這也應該要督促軍方要把它討回來可不可以\n\n11:23.103 --> 11:50.310\n報告委員,那個50億我們已經要回來了目前就要回來了嗎?這是一百年度以前的,對不對?都要回來了對,118億的這個我們也要他趕快和美國談注意剛剛講的擔保信用帳那一個部分美方希望是用它美國的我們希望用我們造風這一方面所以這邊這個方面還在談\n\n11:51.530 --> 12:16.993\n所以他美方希望是用美方的銀行用他美國準備銀行的那我們是希望用我們國內的信用狀所以兩方還在這方面的討論這個要盯他們要盡快好不好不要再傻傻用現金了好不好但要現金都要不回來好另外有一個議題也請審計部呢也是幫忙能夠去盯最近呢我們食安聯環報\n\n12:18.835 --> 12:31.070\n那麼大家都在檢討說不管是我們一年編列食安的預算大概一年將近100億或者前瞻編列食安的部分大概400億超過400億那為什麼這麼多的預算還會食安連環保\n\n12:36.457 --> 12:59.369\n包括這些我們要興建國家級的實驗大樓我們要對編輯查驗快速通關的管理系統我們要增加我們的檢驗能量一大堆都要錢那麼錢都給了碰到食安怎麼會去擋食安的錢呢可是問題是最近就發生了\n\n13:00.779 --> 13:21.730\n我們要做實案大樓我們要擴增我們的檢驗的量呢那最近大家討論最多的米酵菌栓那麼竟然發現整個衛福部剛開始呢他們急得跟熱鍋上螞蟻一樣為什麼他們沒有標準品\n\n13:22.350 --> 13:47.011\n因為你到去檢驗你必須要有標準品後來呢是彰化基督教醫院來救命啊他說我們有提供給衛福部所以大家就質疑為什麼一個衛福部你比不上一個彰化基督教醫院那麼後來我們也發現這些有關於一些所謂的硬體建設比如說他要蓋什麼國家級實驗大樓、食安大樓\n\n13:49.233 --> 14:14.163\n結果出現了他的執行率偏低的問題對不對對這個因為他第一期就編了到現在還沒有進度到現在已經順利當時是幾次的流標了現在已經進度已經快百分之二十了到現在百分之二十對到現在才百分之二十因為前幾次都是發發不出去\n\n14:15.305 --> 14:30.646\n所以沈議長你會不會覺得這個要錢急吼吼然後呢等到執行的部分然後要這個20多億要去蓋大樓我就講嘛食安的預算沒有人敢擋它結果呢現在呢\n\n14:31.187 --> 14:34.749\n你會覺得在整個這麼重要的一環整個前瞻基礎建設裡面食安難道不是很重要的一環嗎\n\n14:58.763 --> 15:18.952\n那你會不會覺得這個預算真的是是不是執行的程度你們有沒有給他們一些建議這次執行是確實進度落後了但是因為執行的事情我們發現進度落後的時候都會預警他你這個部分落後了對你們有提出\n\n15:24.281 --> 15:27.987\n好謝謝王委員宏威的詢問也謝謝陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第14號羅委員美玲\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.138,"end":1.518,"text":"沈議長請教"},{"start":20.823,"end":46.845,"text":"這一本我們今天主要是針對包含前瞻基礎建設還有111年度的審計報告那事實上這本報告在去年就出爐了對不對那我也不曉得為什麼我們的這個諮詢會排在這麼之後我還以為有最新的審計報告去年這份報告曾經引起軒然大波我相信當時你們也有很多的壓力"},{"start":48.166,"end":72.878,"text":"就是當時有關於尤其前瞻計劃就是在這份報告裡面呈現的就是對於各縣市政府市上補助款有嚴重的落差比如說那時候台北市才184億但是呢高雄有1200多億所以那個時候曾經有一個話題我知道你們其實壓力非常大所以我想請教沈記長"},{"start":75.019,"end":91.104,"text":"這個尤其去年這樣的壓力會不會影響我們審計部未來在對行政院各個不管是公務預算或者特別預算在審計上面的你們的這些尺度和標準會不會"},{"start":93.039,"end":121.638,"text":"因為這是我們的主軸尤其這個透明還有客軸是我們審計要執行的所以說我們會盡到我們的主軸完全沒有受到影響我在去年我把這本書幾乎也都翻過一遍事實上我還蠻佩服我們審計部同仁的一個努力所以我希望我們審計部能夠繼續維持這樣的一個功能跟你們的這樣的責任那另外我要請教了"},{"start":122.418,"end":127.831,"text":"今年我們一直在說去年的稅收超徵有高達3700億請問一下這個金額審計部合定了嗎"},{"start":132.623,"end":155.338,"text":"如果1、2年他的行政院還在辦結算他4月底會送到監察院監察院會交給審計部來作審所以還沒有辦合定對不對我們到7月底才會審訊出來可是我告訴那個沈記長現在的這個行政院經濟部其實就已經偷跑"},{"start":156.218,"end":170.008,"text":"好為什麼偷跑呢因為4月1號昨天開始漲電價那麼他們要先確定行政院可以撥補給台電多少錢所以之前先宣布了撥補1000億"},{"start":171.849,"end":199.437,"text":"但是這個程序事實上不合相關的規定因為審計部還沒有針對稅收超徵沒有進行核定可是行政院先把這一千億先要撥補給台電所以這個部分這當然是屬於今年度的不是在我們今天在資議的這個諮詢的這個111年度可是我要請審計部能夠重視這個事情因為不能便宜行事"},{"start":200.357,"end":224.926,"text":"為了希望能夠再縮小台電電價的漲幅：然後確定這個稅收超車的撥補：所以事實上是違反相關規定我在這邊直接的先跟那個沈記長先做這樣的一個說明另外我想請問沈記長前瞻金屬建設現在進入就是你們現在核定是第三期"},{"start":226.141,"end":240.202,"text":"我看到你們報告裡面也特別提到對於地方財政的一個壓力如果以我們現在地方財政一期、二期、三期因為我們當時就在講因為前瞻"},{"start":241.874,"end":262.08,"text":"八千八百億事實上呢我們的地方政府要負擔一半所以對地方政府的財政來講是一個非常大的負擔所以果不其然你看到你們今天的審計報告裡面第一期我們地方政府的自籌經費的比例是89%"},{"start":263.973,"end":290.313,"text":"到了第二期只剩下84%第三期更是後繼無力只剩下65%而你們核定的報告裡面特別有提到就是第一期到第三期現在我們地方政府配合前瞻基礎建設那麼所有編列的預算只佔中央核定自籌經費的33.33%就是1%的意思了"},{"start":294.286,"end":295.787,"text":"對於地方的財政"},{"start":314.221,"end":332.518,"text":"我們審計部看到的相關報告是不是會真的感受到地方財產要補足潛在基礎建設要求的自籌基費事實上是已經有後立無期的狀況我們有把這個意見送請行政院去注意這個情況是"},{"start":333.649,"end":350.659,"text":"那他們有任何的改善嗎?因為這個經費全部編下去啊地方就要有配合款啊他們是說以後在核定計畫的時候他們會注意到這件事情我覺得啊已經到三期了現在才讓這個"},{"start":352.967,"end":377.221,"text":"行政院感受到這些地方財政的辛苦第一個地方財政當然會希望你最好中央多補一點錢給我對不對我不希望我自己自愁壓力非常非常的重而且你補助款就如同我這邊講因為我去年因為我們討論很多就不在這邊浪費時間你們補助款也有大小眼啊對不對台幣是這麼少然後"},{"start":378.001,"end":398.823,"text":"高雄那麼多我不要講我到時候我還會我還在查就是我們將來的治水預算還在大小眼喔還在大小眼就是你今天不能夠中央第一個你不能不公平不均第二個你不要拖累地方讓地方的財政負擔過重"},{"start":399.944,"end":412.438,"text":"所以我覺得未來不管是特別預算也好或者是公務預算我覺得我們審計不到本於這樣的原則好不好另外有一個在你們特別提到我覺得蠻重要的"},{"start":413.24,"end":434.975,"text":"就是對於國防部我們對美的軍購事實上金額非常非常龐大也編列了大筆的特別預算去採購但是呢我們國防部因為很大方台灣很大方對於美國的軍購我們都是用現金支付這個我想沈機長應該知道"},{"start":435.694,"end":463.324,"text":"可是問題來了你現金支付之後有一些他的合約會中止別說我用現金支付準備金可是問題是合約中止你就應該還給我可是以你們在審計部的報告裡面到111年度再還不含112或到現在已經合約中止但是呢我們停滯在美國的"},{"start":464.734,"end":475,"text":"這個準備金就高達新台幣118億照理說美方應該結案之後退還給台灣但是他沒有退還回來"},{"start":475.899,"end":495.124,"text":"那所以現在現在我們又會未來還是要繼續去買軍購那這個問題怎麼解決呢這118億啊我覺得要去要回來有它的難處可是未來我們還是這樣我們未來還是傻傻的去付這個現金然後呢合約中止他還是不退給你這118億以後不知道會不會變200億、300億、400億、500億的下去"},{"start":499.045,"end":522.743,"text":"所以其實你們有要求國防部要求他們用單保信用賺取代現金因為你們其實查得蠻清楚因為你們去查了美國的相關的軍售的相關的他的辦法裡面他是可以接受用單保信用賺對不對可是我們軍方沒有就是這樣傻傻的一直付現金然後錢也要不回來那我想請問沈記長"},{"start":524.804,"end":549.284,"text":"你們這個部分有沒有追蹤呢?國防部說好啊那我們就開始來研究啊那麼112年度他們有用嗎?今年度他們有用嗎?下一年度我們幾乎每一年都要跟美國去買軍之獸啊這些我們如果是傻傻的一直用現金那麼以後還不曉得有多少idol在美國都要不回來"},{"start":550.285,"end":571.401,"text":"所以沈記長這個部分因為這裡面非常非常細我也希望審計部能夠繼續的去盯緊軍方督導國防部不要再做冤大頭啦如果美國可以接受擔保信用狀取代現金我們為什麼不做更何況其實呢"},{"start":573.942,"end":602.115,"text":"在你們的報告裡面後來我才看到其實狀況非常嚴重這也是你們報告裡面除了那118億之外我們還有這個時間比較久也100年度之前我們都已經結會給美方但是呢美方事實上這裡面有一些他要結一塊也是要還給我們的高達多少錢他沒有還給我們你知道嗎"},{"start":605.409,"end":628.946,"text":"50億所以我剛要講118億加50億你看光是在111年度之前就有超過160億應該還給我們而沒有還給我們我們現在都比較關切的是你軍購你應該交給我們武器你延宕對不對我們現在大部分大家都在關心這個部分"},{"start":629.912,"end":657.409,"text":"可是大家很少去關心所以我也很高興我也很肯定省進部注意到這個問題我們錢應該要回來卻沒有要回來我剛才講了合約中止就應該把準備金還給我沒有還給我高達118億還有就是我已經跟你都結親可是這有一些部分你的錢要還給我的也沒有還給我"},{"start":658.79,"end":682.098,"text":"軍方都無力去討錢捏它碰到美國沒有能力去討錢所以第一個部分你們已經給國防部一個指引說請你用擔保信用狀不要再用現金了第二部分那麼現在自存美方的這個結餘款50億這也應該要督促軍方要把它討回來可不可以"},{"start":683.103,"end":710.31,"text":"報告委員,那個50億我們已經要回來了目前就要回來了嗎?這是一百年度以前的,對不對?都要回來了對,118億的這個我們也要他趕快和美國談注意剛剛講的擔保信用帳那一個部分美方希望是用它美國的我們希望用我們造風這一方面所以這邊這個方面還在談"},{"start":711.53,"end":736.993,"text":"所以他美方希望是用美方的銀行用他美國準備銀行的那我們是希望用我們國內的信用狀所以兩方還在這方面的討論這個要盯他們要盡快好不好不要再傻傻用現金了好不好但要現金都要不回來好另外有一個議題也請審計部呢也是幫忙能夠去盯最近呢我們食安聯環報"},{"start":738.835,"end":751.07,"text":"那麼大家都在檢討說不管是我們一年編列食安的預算大概一年將近100億或者前瞻編列食安的部分大概400億超過400億那為什麼這麼多的預算還會食安連環保"},{"start":756.457,"end":779.369,"text":"包括這些我們要興建國家級的實驗大樓我們要對編輯查驗快速通關的管理系統我們要增加我們的檢驗能量一大堆都要錢那麼錢都給了碰到食安怎麼會去擋食安的錢呢可是問題是最近就發生了"},{"start":780.779,"end":801.73,"text":"我們要做實案大樓我們要擴增我們的檢驗的量呢那最近大家討論最多的米酵菌栓那麼竟然發現整個衛福部剛開始呢他們急得跟熱鍋上螞蟻一樣為什麼他們沒有標準品"},{"start":802.35,"end":827.011,"text":"因為你到去檢驗你必須要有標準品後來呢是彰化基督教醫院來救命啊他說我們有提供給衛福部所以大家就質疑為什麼一個衛福部你比不上一個彰化基督教醫院那麼後來我們也發現這些有關於一些所謂的硬體建設比如說他要蓋什麼國家級實驗大樓、食安大樓"},{"start":829.233,"end":854.163,"text":"結果出現了他的執行率偏低的問題對不對對這個因為他第一期就編了到現在還沒有進度到現在已經順利當時是幾次的流標了現在已經進度已經快百分之二十了到現在百分之二十對到現在才百分之二十因為前幾次都是發發不出去"},{"start":855.305,"end":870.646,"text":"所以沈議長你會不會覺得這個要錢急吼吼然後呢等到執行的部分然後要這個20多億要去蓋大樓我就講嘛食安的預算沒有人敢擋它結果呢現在呢"},{"start":871.187,"end":874.749,"text":"你會覺得在整個這麼重要的一環整個前瞻基礎建設裡面食安難道不是很重要的一環嗎"},{"start":898.763,"end":918.952,"text":"那你會不會覺得這個預算真的是是不是執行的程度你們有沒有給他們一些建議這次執行是確實進度落後了但是因為執行的事情我們發現進度落後的時候都會預警他你這個部分落後了對你們有提出"},{"start":924.281,"end":927.987,"text":"好謝謝王委員宏威的詢問也謝謝陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第14號羅委員美玲"}]}}}}