{"id":150851,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150851","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fc817fe378c1f7a48eda4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a65ada283277b8f26e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"15:32:44 - 15:49:07","影片長度":"00:16:23","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":983,"end_time":"2024-04-02T15:49:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T15:32:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":908,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（15時32分）主席好，各位官員、各位委員，大家好！是不是有請審計長？"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：審計長你好，在諮詢之前，我對審計長還有審計部的團隊先給予高度的肯定，跟審計長報告，本席現在是在立法院唯一一位具有會計師執照的委員，我過去在擔任會計師執行業務的時候，我也是常去企業做審計的工作，所以我非常知道做審計業務相對的困難跟辛苦，有時候都要加班加到很晚，而且還要寫這麼多的建議報告，第一個就是要具備勇氣，那第二個也要讓民眾知道真相，所以我在這邊諮詢之前先給審計長跟審計部所有的官員一個高度的肯定，謝謝。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員，委員很專業，委員請多指導。"],["張委員智倫：好，那接下來我就要請教審計長，現在我們民眾相對關注一個相當大的議題，就是在4月1號也就是昨天我們的電價上漲，調整幅度達11%，不管是民生、工業都全面調漲，現在很多民眾擔心的點就是在電價調漲以後，未來物價會不會全面來調漲。","其實本席認為企業應該要獲利，不管開源跟節流，以一般企業的經營角度來講，面對成本上漲，產品售價的調整是因應的作法，不過我們國營的企業有台電、中油、台水、台糖等企業，當要調漲它的售價的時候應該要顧及民生的需求跟任務，要謹慎地來處理。請教審計長第一個問題，我剛剛提到了台電、中油、台水、台糖等國營企業，你認為哪一家企業虧損得最嚴重？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：112年有5家虧損，其中台電虧損了1,985億元，政府還彌補它500億，如果不彌補500億的話，它就虧了2,485億。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，審計長非常專業，這就是我今天要提的，台電的能源政策是否出了問題？本席跟審計長報告，台電公司的毛利率是負30%，它的淨利率是負到40%，它的負債比高達98%，以一家企業而言，它的繼續經營假設我覺得都非常有問題。也要跟審計長報告，現在臺灣的能源政策，想不到在臺灣，現在蔡英文政府說要推展綠電的時候，我們的火力發電居然占超過80%。過去政府對台電的補助，基本上已經達到4,500億，在蔡英文政府執政下，包含這次4月1號，台電連續調整了3次電費，調整幅度35%，所以要請問審計長，台電是不是有繼續經營假設，會不會有未來沒有辦法繼續經營的疑慮？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它是一個國營事業，政府會負最後的責任，因為我們也不容台電有任何閃失或者任何狀況，因為它影響到我們國家很重大，所以這個部分我們是希望台電能夠強化經營體質，加強開源節流，慢慢把整個體質改善。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝審計長。就本席瞭解，111年的確當時國際燃油價格是有些上漲，可是就像剛剛本席跟您報告的，在112年、113年，其實國際燃料的價格有下跌的趨勢，所以本席希望在你們明（112）年的審計報告，千萬不要幫台電背書說國際燃油的價格是下跌，造成台電的虧損。本席大膽建議，是不是可以寫，因為政府錯誤的能源政策，因為剛剛本席有跟你報告，80%變成火力發電，以及本席建議審計部要請我們政府好好來檢討台電的採購契約，是否有些採購綠電的問題？是否已經有不合時宜的部分？就像去年本席一直在跟很多委員、民眾講，從過去到現在，民眾一直有一個想法，而且這也是事實，就是台電賺飽，綠電虧損，全民漲電價。請問審計長，剛剛我講的，本席有跟你建議，是不是在我們明年度的審計報告裡面可以加註政府錯誤的能源政策，造成台電虧損，以及政府應該協助台電檢討它有關於相對的綠電的採購契約？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：向委員報告，委員當過會計師，我們審計寫出去的審核意見是要看看我們的審計發現，當然再生能源這個部分的售價是比買的成本低，但是它的所有成本，除了核能和水力以外都高於售價，成本都高於售價，所以如果照這樣下去，它的經營會相當的困難。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝審計長。您剛剛有提出重點，就是說不論剛剛本席跟您報告漲電價漲的幅度多少，或是政府補助台電的金額4,500億這麼高，還是沒有辦法抑制台電的虧損，所以這是一個相當大的問題，因此本席在這邊也希望未來我們要好好來檢討台電，尤其剛剛本席有跟你報告綠電的問題。","最近本席也發現一件事情，希望審計長可以一起來協助。現在聽說私人的綠電公司有考慮直接賣電給一些大型的企業，讓這些大型企業可以買到綠電，本席希望可以幫台電或幫政府來開源，所以本席在這邊建議，是不是未來這些私人企業、這些私人綠電公司在賣給大企業的時候，台電應該要用收取電網使用費，就是併網費用的概念，讓台電的虧損可以有些彌補。審計長知道這件事情嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我有看到這樣一個報導，當然你經過台電的電網，因為電網的整個建設也要相當的成本，既然使用到這裡，當然使用者付費，一樣地，民間的發電能夠賣給大企業，它就可以少收購，這也是一種解決的方式，政府賣綠電是不是也可以考慮民間這種綠電的作法，所以我們一直希望台電加強開源節流，或者強化經營體質。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝審計長。就是希望明年的審計報告不要看到審計部寫國際燃油價格下跌造成台電虧損，這邊還是要拜託審計長幫忙。","我在看台電資產負債表的時候，我看到台電居然有一個非常龐大的資產2,800億，是當時核四的興建費用，請教審計長，對你來講這個核四的2,800億資產，到底是資產還是負債？因為就本席瞭解，一個資產這麼龐大2,800億，可是基本上核四的建造已經廢掉了，而且它已經沒有辦法再幫臺灣產生出更多的電力，未來還需要非常龐大的金額去做後續除役的動作，現在帳列2,800億的資產是否應該要做一個價值減損部分的討論？以及這樣價值減損的部分會不會造成台電未來虧損更嚴重？現在不做台電核四廠資產減損的原因為何？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們也有提出和委員剛剛所講一樣的審計意見，經濟部給我們的答復是他們還在做整個核四資產怎麼樣再應用的評估，等評估定案了以後，我們會要求它依照公認的會計原理原則來做相關的評價。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝審計長。本席這邊要提醒審計長，根據蔡英文政府講的2025非核家園，照蔡英文政府的講法，應該明年這些兩千多億的資產就應該歸零，所以這點我是要跟您報告的。我也跟審計長報告，當時經濟部說有一個資產管理維護計畫，從106年就已經跟審計部這邊報告說它要來評估，已經評估了8年，都沒有結論。所以本席在這邊也要大膽建議審計長，已經拖了8年，已經夠久了！審計長、審計部你們有權力把這個事情交給監察院做個審議，是否這樣子讓臺灣人民會有個錯誤的想法，就是台電有2,800億這麼大的資產？但其實這個資產是一點價值都沒有的，所以這邊要拜託審計長幫忙。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們可以評估考慮。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。這邊就是我簡單對台電的部分，這個真的要拜託審計長協助，不然台電的負債以及相關資產的減損，如果不讓國人知道它真正的情況，未來等到一次直接認列的時候，會造成台電以及國家重大的負擔。","第二個我想要請教審計長的是，國人所注重的就是我們國家負債的問題，請教審計長，就您的看法，現在我們全臺灣整體中央的負債是不是接近5兆？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們111年度的決算出來是將近5兆6千9百多億。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。金額已經到了五兆多，以臺灣2,300萬人來算，每一個人的平均負債大概是25萬左右，這邊要跟審計長報告，現在我們國人，以及最近我們立法院正在討論的，就是有關於特別預算的問題，我覺得審計部在這邊表現得非常的勇敢，因為審計部在它的決算報告也有寫說，107年、108年及111年，我們政府的歲出、歲入是為賸餘的，其他年度皆為短絀。顧名思義，政府的錢都不夠用，尤其112年的短絀高達6,190億，主要就是因為政府長年以制定特別條例的方式編列特別預算，歲出規模龐大，沒有籌措歲入財源，以及多仰賴債務支應。依審計長的表現，本席認為你有把這個問題給講出來，就是蔡英文政府在執政這八年，運用非常多特別預算，而且特別預算可以規避認列臺灣政府的債務上限。本席有一個資料，顯示蔡英文政府編特別預算的時候，到底讓臺灣社會增加多少負債，審計長有資料嗎？我收到的資料好像……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果到111年，因為我們是這樣，剛剛講的是5兆6,977億，減掉他105年接任的時候，實際債務是五千三百多，在111年增加了4,200億。"],["張委員智倫：可是跟審計長報告，我收到的資料好像比這個數字高很多，沒關係，會後我再跟審計長請教一下。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我講的是我們現在的實際債務餘額。"],["張委員智倫：意思是特別預算的部分有去償還嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果舉借會滾進實際債務餘額裡面。"],["張委員智倫：好，接下來還是國人比較擔心的政府負債，因為你在審計報告中有特別提出，其實政府有一些金額沒有列在我們國家的負債當中，就是屬於俗稱的潛藏負債，主要包含的金額就是勞保基金15億的負債，以及軍公教人員退休金的負債，裡面的金額高達將近20億，全臺灣2,300萬的國人，本席算起來每一個人的負債會再增加75萬，所以每個人的負債可能平均會增加到100萬，這是全臺灣人民想要瞭解的。當然，本席知道依照國際的一些編制準則，這不需要列在一般的政府預算裡面，可是我看審計長那麼認真，每年在審計報告中重複提到這些潛藏負債的問題。尤其勞保基金的負債將近13到15兆，這個部分我請教審計長，你有什麼方法解決嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員，因為透明在審計的立場是很重要的，所以我們會把它提出來。勞保這一塊，我們也希望能夠開源節流，儘量促進投資效益及各方面來慢慢解決處理。但是政府也有對這部分予以撥補，從109年到現在，看起來已經撥補兩千六百多億來緩解它的差短。"],["張委員智倫：好，最後還是要拜託審計長，因為撥補金額小於負債累積的數字，所以到最後還是會造成整個負債一直往上爬，所以這個問題到目前還是沒有解決。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：勞保是一個很大的問題……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝審計長。"],["主席：謝謝張委員智倫的諮詢，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","報告院會，中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告」等案之諮詢，均已詢答完畢。作以下之決定：","一、「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」及「中央政府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告（中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30日）」等案，交財政委員會會同有關委員會審查。","二、將各委員發言紀錄及書面諮詢函送審計部，請就未答復部分予以書面答復。","三、已提出之書面諮詢，尚未登載公報者，一律補刊。","繼續處理復議案，請議事人員宣讀第一案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"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\"這種狀況所以因為它影響到我們國家很重大所以我們這個部分我們是希望台電能夠強化經營體質加強開業節流慢慢慢慢把它整個體質改善\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 230.13, \"end\": 230.33, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 230.33, \"end\": 230.45, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 230.45, \"end\": 230.831, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 230.831, \"end\": 231.031, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 231.031, \"end\": 231.351, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 231.351, \"end\": 231.832, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 231.832, \"end\": 232.372, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 232.372, \"end\": 232.953, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 232.953, \"end\": 233.193, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 233.193, \"end\": 233.393, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 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0.8}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 973.497, \"end\": 973.537, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 973.537, \"end\": 973.557, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"審\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,922 --> 00:00:10,629\n主席好各位委員各位委員大家好是不是有請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長對選\n\n2\n00:00:19,700 --> 00:00:47,926\n張委員好沈記長你好在質詢之前我對沈記長還有我們審計部的團隊先給予高度的肯定因為跟沈記長報告本席是在立法院現在唯一一位具有財經就是唯一一位具有會計師身份執照的這個委員我過去在擔任這個會計師的業務的時候我也是常去企業做審計的工作所以我非常知道說做審計業務相對的困難跟辛苦\n\n3\n00:00:48,426 --> 00:01:08,075\n有時候都要加班加到很晚而且還要寫這麼多的建議報告也是第一個要具備勇氣那第二個也要具備讓民眾知道真相那我所以在這邊資訊之前先給我們省紀長跟我們省紀部所有的官員一個高度的肯定謝謝謝謝委員委員很專業的請多主導\n\n4\n00:01:10,714 --> 00:01:31,351\n好那接下來我就要請教有關於沈記長現在我們民生民眾相對相對關注相當大的議題就是4月1號就是昨天我們電價上漲調整幅度11%不管是民生工業全面調漲那以及現在我們很多民眾擔心的點就是現在電價調漲以後\n\n5\n00:01:33,112 --> 00:01:59,415\n未來物價會不會全面來調漲那其實我們本席認為企業應該要獲利那不管開源跟節流以一般的企業的經營角度來講面對成本上漲產品售價的調整是因應的做法不過相對於我們國營的企業有台電、中油、台水、台糖等企業當在調漲它的售價的時候應該顧及民生的\n\n6\n00:02:00,115 --> 00:02:13,400\n需求跟任務要謹慎的來處理那請教沈機長第一個問題剛剛我提到這些台電、中油、台水、台糖等國營企業就您的認為哪一家的企業虧損的最嚴重\n\n7\n00:02:17,316 --> 00:02:37,183\n112年有5家虧損,其中台電虧損了1985億元,其中有政府還彌補了它500億,如果不彌補500億,它虧了2485億元。沒錯,沈局長非常專業,這就是我今天要提的,其實台電它的能源政策是否出了問題?\n\n8\n00:02:39,346 --> 00:03:01,376\n本席跟沈記長報告這家台電它的公司它的毛利率是負百分之三十它的淨利率負到百分之四十它負債比高達九十八趴以一家企業而言它的繼續經營假設我覺得都非常有問題那也跟沈記長報告現在台灣的能源政策\n\n9\n00:03:02,296 --> 00:03:24,354\n想不到在台灣現在蔡英文政府說要推展綠電的時候我們的火力發電居然佔超過80%過去政府對台電的補助基本上已經達到了4500億在蔡英文政府執政下台電也連續包含這是4月1號連續調整了三次的電費調整幅度35%所以\n\n10\n00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:47,188\n跟沈記長請問請問台電他是不是有繼續經營假設會不會有未來沒有辦法繼續經營的疑慮他是一個國營事業政府會負最後的責任因為我們也不容台電有任何的損失或者\n\n11\n00:03:50,130 --> 00:04:03,602\n這種狀況所以因為它影響到我們國家很重大所以我們這個部分我們是希望台電能夠強化經營體質加強開業節流慢慢慢慢把它整個體質改善\n\n12\n00:04:04,619 --> 00:04:15,589\n好謝謝沈機長就本席了解111年的確當時這個國際燃油價格是有些上漲可是就像我剛剛本席跟您報告的在112年、113年其實國際燃料的價格其實有下跌的趨勢\n\n13\n00:04:21,594 --> 00:04:40,827\n所以我本席希望說在你明年112年的審計報告的時候千萬不要幫台電背書說國際燃油的價格是下跌造成台電的虧損本席大膽建議是不是可以寫因為政府的錯誤的能源政策因為剛剛本席有給你報告80%變成火力發電以及\n\n14\n00:04:44,127 --> 00:05:08,415\n我建議我們審計部要請我們政府好好來檢討台電的採購契約是否有些採購綠電的問題是否已經有不合時宜的部分就像我們去年本席一直在跟很多的我們的委員跟民眾在講從過去到現在一直民眾一直有一個想法而且這也是事實就是台電賺寶綠電虧損全民漲電價\n\n15\n00:05:13,897 --> 00:05:29,686\n請問我們審計長剛我講的我們明年度本席有給你建議是不是我們在我們審計報告裡面可以加注政府的出入能源政策造成台電虧損以及台電以及政府應該來協助台電檢討它有關於相對的綠電的採購契約\n\n16\n00:05:31,451 --> 00:05:58,009\n向委員報告,我們委員當過會計師我們審計就出去審核意見是要看看我們的審計發現那當然啦,能源這一個再生能源這一個部分售價是比那個成本買的成本是低了但是他的所有的成本除了\n\n17\n00:05:59,242 --> 00:06:10,396\n合能和水利以外成本都高於售價所以它是如果這樣下去它的經營會比較相當的困難\n\n18\n00:06:14,158 --> 00:06:42,398\n好謝謝沈記長您剛剛有提出的重點就是說無論剛剛本席跟您報告漲電價漲的幅度多少或是政府補助台電的金額4500億這麼高還是沒有辦法抑制台電的虧損所以這是一個相當大的問題所以本席在這邊也希望說未來我們要好好來檢討這個台電尤其剛剛我本席跟你報告綠電的一個問題那最近本席也發現到一件事情也希望沈記長可以一起來協助\n\n19\n00:06:43,739 --> 00:07:09,303\n現在聽說私人企業有考慮有直接賣電給一些大型的私人的綠電公司有考慮要直接賣電給一些大型的企業來讓這些大型企業可以買到綠電那本席希望可以幫台電或幫政府來開源所以本席在這邊建議是不是未來這些私人企業這些私人綠電公司在賣給大企業的時候台電應該要用這個收取\n\n20\n00:07:13,644 --> 00:07:41,216\n電網使用費就是什麼並網費用的概念讓台電的虧損可以來有些的彌補沈議長知道這件事情嗎我有看到這樣的一個報導這個是當然你經過台電的電網這個因為電網的整個建設也要相當的成本使用到這裡當然使用者互惠這也一樣的他\n\n21\n00:07:42,898 --> 00:08:09,632\n民間能夠賣給大企業民間的發電賣給大企業他就可以少收購這些也是一種解決的方式那政府賣綠電是不是有也可以考慮民間的這種綠電的做法所以我們一直希望台電加強開源節流或者強化經營體制\n\n22\n00:08:12,056 --> 00:08:32,265\n好謝謝沈記長就是需要說明年的審計報告不要看到說就是說審計部寫這個國際燃油價格下跌倒成台電虧損這邊還是要拜託沈記長幫忙以及我在在看這個台電的這個資產負債表的時候我居然看到台電居然有一個非常龐大的資產2800億是當時合適的興建費用那請教我們沈記長這邊對你來講這個合適的2800億\n\n23\n00:08:39,208 --> 00:08:58,647\n的資產到底是資產還是負債因為就本席了解一個資產這麼龐大2800億可是基本上他的合適的建造已經廢掉了而且他已經沒有辦法再幫台灣產生出更多的電力基本未來還需要非常龐大的金額來去做後續廚藝的動作\n\n24\n00:09:00,569 --> 00:09:09,055\n那現在帳列2800億的資產是否有是否應該來去做一個價值的減損的部分的討論以及這樣價值減損的部分會不會造成台電未來虧損更嚴重那當時現在為什麼不做台電核市場這個資產減損的原因為何這個我們\n\n25\n00:09:21,516 --> 00:09:44,328\n漢委員我們也有提出這樣的一個漢委員剛所講的提出這樣的損失意見經濟部給我們的答覆是他們還在做整個合適租產的一個怎麼樣再應用的一個評估等評估定案了以後我們會做要求他依照公認的會計原理原則來做相關的評價\n\n26\n00:09:45,683 --> 00:10:02,704\n好謝謝沈記長本席這邊要提醒沈記長根據蔡英文政府講的2025非核家園照理蔡英文政府的講法應該明年這些兩千多億的資產就應該歸零所以這點我是要跟您報告的那當時我也跟沈記長報告\n\n27\n00:10:04,601 --> 00:10:32,534\n經濟部這邊有說有一個資產管理維護計畫其實從106年就已經跟審計部這邊報告說他要來評估已經評估了8年都沒有結論所以我本席在這邊也要大膽這個建議審計長已經拖了8年了已經夠久了那以審計部你沒有權利把這個事情交給監察院來去做一個審議是否這樣子\n\n28\n00:10:34,616 --> 00:10:47,173\n讓台灣人民會有個錯誤的想法說其實台電有2800億這麼大的資產其實這個資產是一點價值都沒有的所以這邊要拜託沈記長來幫忙我們可以來評估考慮好謝謝\n\n29\n00:10:51,245 --> 00:11:13,955\n好這邊就是我簡單對台電的部分這個是真的要拜託沈記長來協助因為不然台電的這個負債以及當官資產的減損如果不讓國人知道他真正的情況未來等到一次直接認列的時候會造成台電以及國家重大的負擔第二個我想要請教沈記長的就是國人他所注重的就是我們國家負債的問題\n\n30\n00:11:15,135 --> 00:11:43,331\n請教沈記長就您的看法現在我們全台灣整體中央的負債是不是接近五兆已經到五兆我們111年度的結算出來是五兆六千將近五兆六千九百多億謝謝那今年已經到了五兆多以台灣兩千三百萬人來算每一個人的平均負債大概是二十五萬左右\n\n31\n00:11:44,071 --> 00:12:12,024\n那這邊要跟這個省紀長報告現在我們國人也是最近我們立法院正在討論的就是有關於特別預算的問題那我覺得省紀部在這邊表現得非常的勇敢因為省紀部在他的這個決算報告說也有寫說107年、108年及111年我們的政府的稅出稅入視為騰餘的其他年度皆為短促顧名思義就是說\n\n32\n00:12:13,373 --> 00:12:32,042\n政府的錢都不夠用,尤其112年的儲蓄高達6190億,主要就是因為政府常年制定以特別條例方式編列特別預算,稅出規模龐大以及沒有籌措稅入財源以及多仰賴債務之應。\n\n33\n00:12:34,656 --> 00:13:01,573\n所以沈議長這邊你表現我認為你就是本席認為你有把這個問題給講出來就是蔡英文政府在執政這8年運用了非常多特別預算而且這個特別預算他是可以規避我們一般來認列台灣的政府的債務上限那本席這邊有一個資料蔡英文政府在編了特別預算的時候到底讓台灣社會增加多少負債\n\n34\n00:13:07,545 --> 00:13:30,640\n能講這本資料嗎我收到的資料好像兩張如果到110因為我們是這樣那個剛剛講是五兆六千九百七十七億減掉當時他接任105年接任的時候是實際債務是五千三百多在111年是增加了四千兩百億可是跟省紀展報告我這邊收到的資料好像比這個數字高很多\n\n35\n00:13:31,727 --> 00:13:58,561\n所以會後沒關係我再跟審計長請教一下我講的是我們現在的實際債務已有所以意思就是說他有特別預算的部分有去做償還的部分他都會滾進這個實際他如果去集建會滾進這個實際債務已有裡面好那接下來還是國人比較擔心的就是說政府的負債部分因為你在審計報告中有特別提出其實政府有一些是\n\n36\n00:14:00,885 --> 00:14:19,094\n沒有略在我們的國家的負債當中就是所謂俗稱的叫做潛在負債裡面的金額高達20億主要包含的金額就是勞保基金15億的負債以及我們的軍公教人員的退休金的負債裡面的金額就是高達了將近要20億那以\n\n37\n00:14:21,115 --> 00:14:50,575\n就本席來算我們全台灣國人2300萬人算起來每一個人的負債會再增加75萬所以負債可能每個人平均會增加到100萬我覺得這是全台灣人民想要去了解的那當然本席知道說這依照國際的一些編制準則這是不需要列在我們一般的政府預算裡面那可是我看審計長那麼認真每年在審計報告中重複的去提到\n\n38\n00:14:51,556 --> 00:14:52,757\n有什麼方法來解決?\n\n39\n00:15:09,637 --> 00:15:23,443\n這個謝謝委員我們會提出來因為透明是很重要在我們的損濟的一個立場是很重要所以我們會把它提出來那勞保的這一個塊因為我們也希望能夠\n\n40\n00:16:00,397 --> 00:16:00,417\n好,謝謝\n\n41\n00:16:11,954 --> 00:16:13,557\n謝謝張委員致輪的質詢也謝謝陳審計長的備詢報告院會中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5922\t10629\t主席好各位委員各位委員大家好是不是有請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長對選\n19700\t47926\t張委員好沈記長你好在質詢之前我對沈記長還有我們審計部的團隊先給予高度的肯定因為跟沈記長報告本席是在立法院現在唯一一位具有財經就是唯一一位具有會計師身份執照的這個委員我過去在擔任這個會計師的業務的時候我也是常去企業做審計的工作所以我非常知道說做審計業務相對的困難跟辛苦\n48426\t68075\t有時候都要加班加到很晚而且還要寫這麼多的建議報告也是第一個要具備勇氣那第二個也要具備讓民眾知道真相那我所以在這邊資訊之前先給我們省紀長跟我們省紀部所有的官員一個高度的肯定謝謝謝謝委員委員很專業的請多主導\n70714\t91351\t好那接下來我就要請教有關於沈記長現在我們民生民眾相對相對關注相當大的議題就是4月1號就是昨天我們電價上漲調整幅度11%不管是民生工業全面調漲那以及現在我們很多民眾擔心的點就是現在電價調漲以後\n93112\t119415\t未來物價會不會全面來調漲那其實我們本席認為企業應該要獲利那不管開源跟節流以一般的企業的經營角度來講面對成本上漲產品售價的調整是因應的做法不過相對於我們國營的企業有台電、中油、台水、台糖等企業當在調漲它的售價的時候應該顧及民生的\n120115\t133400\t需求跟任務要謹慎的來處理那請教沈機長第一個問題剛剛我提到這些台電、中油、台水、台糖等國營企業就您的認為哪一家的企業虧損的最嚴重\n137316\t157183\t112年有5家虧損,其中台電虧損了1985億元,其中有政府還彌補了它500億,如果不彌補500億,它虧了2485億元。沒錯,沈局長非常專業,這就是我今天要提的,其實台電它的能源政策是否出了問題?\n159346\t181376\t本席跟沈記長報告這家台電它的公司它的毛利率是負百分之三十它的淨利率負到百分之四十它負債比高達九十八趴以一家企業而言它的繼續經營假設我覺得都非常有問題那也跟沈記長報告現在台灣的能源政策\n182296\t204354\t想不到在台灣現在蔡英文政府說要推展綠電的時候我們的火力發電居然佔超過80%過去政府對台電的補助基本上已經達到了4500億在蔡英文政府執政下台電也連續包含這是4月1號連續調整了三次的電費調整幅度35%所以\n212000\t227188\t跟沈記長請問請問台電他是不是有繼續經營假設會不會有未來沒有辦法繼續經營的疑慮他是一個國營事業政府會負最後的責任因為我們也不容台電有任何的損失或者\n230130\t243602\t這種狀況所以因為它影響到我們國家很重大所以我們這個部分我們是希望台電能夠強化經營體質加強開業節流慢慢慢慢把它整個體質改善\n244619\t255589\t好 謝謝沈機長就本席了解111年的確當時這個國際燃油價格是有些上漲可是就像我剛剛本席跟您報告的在112年、113年其實國際燃料的價格其實有下跌的趨勢\n261594\t280827\t所以我本席希望說在你明年112年的審計報告的時候千萬不要幫台電背書說國際燃油的價格是下跌造成台電的虧損本席大膽建議是不是可以寫因為政府的錯誤的能源政策因為剛剛本席有給你報告80%變成火力發電以及\n284127\t308415\t我建議我們審計部要請我們政府好好來檢討台電的採購契約是否有些採購綠電的問題是否已經有不合時宜的部分就像我們去年本席一直在跟很多的我們的委員跟民眾在講從過去到現在一直民眾一直有一個想法而且這也是事實就是台電賺寶綠電虧損全民漲電價\n313897\t329686\t請問我們審計長剛我講的我們明年度本席有給你建議是不是我們在我們審計報告裡面可以加注政府的出入能源政策造成台電虧損以及台電以及政府應該來協助台電檢討它有關於相對的綠電的採購契約\n331451\t358009\t向委員報告,我們委員當過會計師我們審計就出去審核意見是要看看我們的審計發現那當然啦,能源這一個再生能源這一個部分售價是比那個成本買的成本是低了但是他的所有的成本除了\n359242\t370396\t合能和水利以外成本都高於售價所以它是如果這樣下去它的經營會比較相當的困難\n374158\t402398\t好 謝謝沈記長您剛剛有提出的重點就是說無論剛剛本席跟您報告漲電價漲的幅度多少或是政府補助台電的金額4500億這麼高還是沒有辦法抑制台電的虧損所以這是一個相當大的問題所以本席在這邊也希望說未來我們要好好來檢討這個台電尤其剛剛我本席跟你報告綠電的一個問題那最近本席也發現到一件事情也希望沈記長可以一起來協助\n403739\t429303\t現在聽說私人企業有考慮有直接賣電給一些大型的私人的綠電公司有考慮要直接賣電給一些大型的企業來讓這些大型企業可以買到綠電那本席希望可以幫台電或幫政府來開源所以本席在這邊建議是不是未來這些私人企業這些私人綠電公司在賣給大企業的時候台電應該要用這個收取\n433644\t461216\t電網使用費就是什麼並網費用的概念讓台電的虧損可以來有些的彌補沈議長知道這件事情嗎我有看到這樣的一個報導這個是當然你經過台電的電網這個因為電網的整個建設也要相當的成本使用到這裡當然使用者互惠這也一樣的他\n462898\t489632\t民間能夠賣給大企業民間的發電賣給大企業他就可以少收購這些也是一種解決的方式那政府賣綠電是不是有也可以考慮民間的這種綠電的做法所以我們一直希望台電加強開源節流或者強化經營體制\n492056\t512265\t好 謝謝沈記長就是需要說明年的審計報告不要看到說就是說審計部寫這個國際燃油價格下跌倒成台電虧損這邊還是要拜託沈記長幫忙以及我在在看這個台電的這個資產負債表的時候我居然看到台電居然有一個非常龐大的資產2800億是當時合適的興建費用那請教我們沈記長這邊對你來講這個合適的2800億\n519208\t538647\t的資產到底是資產還是負債因為就本席了解一個資產這麼龐大2800億可是基本上他的合適的建造已經廢掉了而且他已經沒有辦法再幫台灣產生出更多的電力基本未來還需要非常龐大的金額來去做後續廚藝的動作\n540569\t549055\t那現在帳列2800億的資產是否有是否應該來去做一個價值的減損的部分的討論以及這樣價值減損的部分會不會造成台電未來虧損更嚴重那當時現在為什麼不做台電核市場這個資產減損的原因為何這個我們\n561516\t584328\t漢委員我們也有提出這樣的一個漢委員剛所講的提出這樣的損失意見經濟部給我們的答覆是他們還在做整個合適租產的一個怎麼樣再應用的一個評估等評估定案了以後我們會做要求他依照公認的會計原理原則來做相關的評價\n585683\t602704\t好 謝謝沈記長本席這邊要提醒沈記長根據蔡英文政府講的2025非核家園照理蔡英文政府的講法應該明年這些兩千多億的資產就應該歸零所以這點我是要跟您報告的那當時我也跟沈記長報告\n604601\t632534\t經濟部這邊有說有一個資產管理維護計畫其實從106年就已經跟審計部這邊報告說他要來評估已經評估了8年都沒有結論所以我本席在這邊也要大膽這個建議審計長已經拖了8年了已經夠久了那以審計部你沒有權利把這個事情交給監察院來去做一個審議是否這樣子\n634616\t647173\t讓台灣人民會有個錯誤的想法說其實台電有2800億這麼大的資產其實這個資產是一點價值都沒有的所以這邊要拜託沈記長來幫忙我們可以來評估考慮好 謝謝\n651245\t673955\t好這邊就是我簡單對台電的部分這個是真的要拜託沈記長來協助因為不然台電的這個負債以及當官資產的減損如果不讓國人知道他真正的情況未來等到一次直接認列的時候會造成台電以及國家重大的負擔第二個我想要請教沈記長的就是國人他所注重的就是我們國家負債的問題\n675135\t703331\t請教沈記長就您的看法現在我們全台灣整體中央的負債是不是接近五兆已經到五兆我們111年度的結算出來是五兆六千將近五兆六千九百多億謝謝那今年已經到了五兆多以台灣兩千三百萬人來算每一個人的平均負債大概是二十五萬左右\n704071\t732024\t那這邊要跟這個省紀長報告現在我們國人也是最近我們立法院正在討論的就是有關於特別預算的問題那我覺得省紀部在這邊表現得非常的勇敢因為省紀部在他的這個決算報告說也有寫說107年、108年及111年我們的政府的稅出稅入視為騰餘的其他年度皆為短促顧名思義就是說\n733373\t752042\t政府的錢都不夠用,尤其112年的儲蓄高達6190億,主要就是因為政府常年制定以特別條例方式編列特別預算,稅出規模龐大以及沒有籌措稅入財源以及多仰賴債務之應。\n754656\t781573\t所以沈議長這邊你表現我認為你就是本席認為你有把這個問題給講出來就是蔡英文政府在執政這8年運用了非常多特別預算而且這個特別預算他是可以規避我們一般來認列台灣的政府的債務上限那本席這邊有一個資料蔡英文政府在編了特別預算的時候到底讓台灣社會增加多少負債\n787545\t810640\t能講這本資料嗎我收到的資料好像兩張如果到110因為我們是這樣那個剛剛講是五兆六千九百七十七億減掉當時他接任105年接任的時候是實際債務是五千三百多在111年是增加了四千兩百億可是跟省紀展報告我這邊收到的資料好像比這個數字高很多\n811727\t838561\t所以會後沒關係我再跟審計長請教一下我講的是我們現在的實際債務已有所以意思就是說他有特別預算的部分有去做償還的部分他都會滾進這個實際他如果去集建會滾進這個實際債務已有裡面好那接下來還是國人比較擔心的就是說政府的負債部分因為你在審計報告中有特別提出其實政府有一些是\n840885\t859094\t沒有略在我們的國家的負債當中就是所謂俗稱的叫做潛在負債裡面的金額高達20億主要包含的金額就是勞保基金15億的負債以及我們的軍公教人員的退休金的負債裡面的金額就是高達了將近要20億那以\n861115\t890575\t就本席來算我們全台灣國人2300萬人算起來每一個人的負債會再增加75萬所以負債可能每個人平均會增加到100萬我覺得這是全台灣人民想要去了解的那當然本席知道說這依照國際的一些編制準則這是不需要列在我們一般的政府預算裡面那可是我看審計長那麼認真每年在審計報告中重複的去提到\n891556\t892757\t有什麼方法來解決?\n909637\t923443\t這個謝謝委員我們會提出來因為透明是很重要在我們的損濟的一個立場是很重要所以我們會把它提出來那勞保的這一個塊因為我們也希望能夠\n960397\t960417\t好,謝謝\n971954\t973557\t謝謝張委員致輪的質詢也謝謝陳審計長的備詢報告院會中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審\n","txt":"主席好各位委員各位委員大家好是不是有請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長對選\n張委員好沈記長你好在質詢之前我對沈記長還有我們審計部的團隊先給予高度的肯定因為跟沈記長報告本席是在立法院現在唯一一位具有財經就是唯一一位具有會計師身份執照的這個委員我過去在擔任這個會計師的業務的時候我也是常去企業做審計的工作所以我非常知道說做審計業務相對的困難跟辛苦\n有時候都要加班加到很晚而且還要寫這麼多的建議報告也是第一個要具備勇氣那第二個也要具備讓民眾知道真相那我所以在這邊資訊之前先給我們省紀長跟我們省紀部所有的官員一個高度的肯定謝謝謝謝委員委員很專業的請多主導\n好那接下來我就要請教有關於沈記長現在我們民生民眾相對相對關注相當大的議題就是4月1號就是昨天我們電價上漲調整幅度11%不管是民生工業全面調漲那以及現在我們很多民眾擔心的點就是現在電價調漲以後\n未來物價會不會全面來調漲那其實我們本席認為企業應該要獲利那不管開源跟節流以一般的企業的經營角度來講面對成本上漲產品售價的調整是因應的做法不過相對於我們國營的企業有台電、中油、台水、台糖等企業當在調漲它的售價的時候應該顧及民生的\n需求跟任務要謹慎的來處理那請教沈機長第一個問題剛剛我提到這些台電、中油、台水、台糖等國營企業就您的認為哪一家的企業虧損的最嚴重\n112年有5家虧損,其中台電虧損了1985億元,其中有政府還彌補了它500億,如果不彌補500億,它虧了2485億元。沒錯,沈局長非常專業,這就是我今天要提的,其實台電它的能源政策是否出了問題?\n本席跟沈記長報告這家台電它的公司它的毛利率是負百分之三十它的淨利率負到百分之四十它負債比高達九十八趴以一家企業而言它的繼續經營假設我覺得都非常有問題那也跟沈記長報告現在台灣的能源政策\n想不到在台灣現在蔡英文政府說要推展綠電的時候我們的火力發電居然佔超過80%過去政府對台電的補助基本上已經達到了4500億在蔡英文政府執政下台電也連續包含這是4月1號連續調整了三次的電費調整幅度35%所以\n跟沈記長請問請問台電他是不是有繼續經營假設會不會有未來沒有辦法繼續經營的疑慮他是一個國營事業政府會負最後的責任因為我們也不容台電有任何的損失或者\n這種狀況所以因為它影響到我們國家很重大所以我們這個部分我們是希望台電能夠強化經營體質加強開業節流慢慢慢慢把它整個體質改善\n好 謝謝沈機長就本席了解111年的確當時這個國際燃油價格是有些上漲可是就像我剛剛本席跟您報告的在112年、113年其實國際燃料的價格其實有下跌的趨勢\n所以我本席希望說在你明年112年的審計報告的時候千萬不要幫台電背書說國際燃油的價格是下跌造成台電的虧損本席大膽建議是不是可以寫因為政府的錯誤的能源政策因為剛剛本席有給你報告80%變成火力發電以及\n我建議我們審計部要請我們政府好好來檢討台電的採購契約是否有些採購綠電的問題是否已經有不合時宜的部分就像我們去年本席一直在跟很多的我們的委員跟民眾在講從過去到現在一直民眾一直有一個想法而且這也是事實就是台電賺寶綠電虧損全民漲電價\n請問我們審計長剛我講的我們明年度本席有給你建議是不是我們在我們審計報告裡面可以加注政府的出入能源政策造成台電虧損以及台電以及政府應該來協助台電檢討它有關於相對的綠電的採購契約\n向委員報告,我們委員當過會計師我們審計就出去審核意見是要看看我們的審計發現那當然啦,能源這一個再生能源這一個部分售價是比那個成本買的成本是低了但是他的所有的成本除了\n合能和水利以外成本都高於售價所以它是如果這樣下去它的經營會比較相當的困難\n好 謝謝沈記長您剛剛有提出的重點就是說無論剛剛本席跟您報告漲電價漲的幅度多少或是政府補助台電的金額4500億這麼高還是沒有辦法抑制台電的虧損所以這是一個相當大的問題所以本席在這邊也希望說未來我們要好好來檢討這個台電尤其剛剛我本席跟你報告綠電的一個問題那最近本席也發現到一件事情也希望沈記長可以一起來協助\n現在聽說私人企業有考慮有直接賣電給一些大型的私人的綠電公司有考慮要直接賣電給一些大型的企業來讓這些大型企業可以買到綠電那本席希望可以幫台電或幫政府來開源所以本席在這邊建議是不是未來這些私人企業這些私人綠電公司在賣給大企業的時候台電應該要用這個收取\n電網使用費就是什麼並網費用的概念讓台電的虧損可以來有些的彌補沈議長知道這件事情嗎我有看到這樣的一個報導這個是當然你經過台電的電網這個因為電網的整個建設也要相當的成本使用到這裡當然使用者互惠這也一樣的他\n民間能夠賣給大企業民間的發電賣給大企業他就可以少收購這些也是一種解決的方式那政府賣綠電是不是有也可以考慮民間的這種綠電的做法所以我們一直希望台電加強開源節流或者強化經營體制\n好 謝謝沈記長就是需要說明年的審計報告不要看到說就是說審計部寫這個國際燃油價格下跌倒成台電虧損這邊還是要拜託沈記長幫忙以及我在在看這個台電的這個資產負債表的時候我居然看到台電居然有一個非常龐大的資產2800億是當時合適的興建費用那請教我們沈記長這邊對你來講這個合適的2800億\n的資產到底是資產還是負債因為就本席了解一個資產這麼龐大2800億可是基本上他的合適的建造已經廢掉了而且他已經沒有辦法再幫台灣產生出更多的電力基本未來還需要非常龐大的金額來去做後續廚藝的動作\n那現在帳列2800億的資產是否有是否應該來去做一個價值的減損的部分的討論以及這樣價值減損的部分會不會造成台電未來虧損更嚴重那當時現在為什麼不做台電核市場這個資產減損的原因為何這個我們\n漢委員我們也有提出這樣的一個漢委員剛所講的提出這樣的損失意見經濟部給我們的答覆是他們還在做整個合適租產的一個怎麼樣再應用的一個評估等評估定案了以後我們會做要求他依照公認的會計原理原則來做相關的評價\n好 謝謝沈記長本席這邊要提醒沈記長根據蔡英文政府講的2025非核家園照理蔡英文政府的講法應該明年這些兩千多億的資產就應該歸零所以這點我是要跟您報告的那當時我也跟沈記長報告\n經濟部這邊有說有一個資產管理維護計畫其實從106年就已經跟審計部這邊報告說他要來評估已經評估了8年都沒有結論所以我本席在這邊也要大膽這個建議審計長已經拖了8年了已經夠久了那以審計部你沒有權利把這個事情交給監察院來去做一個審議是否這樣子\n讓台灣人民會有個錯誤的想法說其實台電有2800億這麼大的資產其實這個資產是一點價值都沒有的所以這邊要拜託沈記長來幫忙我們可以來評估考慮好 謝謝\n好這邊就是我簡單對台電的部分這個是真的要拜託沈記長來協助因為不然台電的這個負債以及當官資產的減損如果不讓國人知道他真正的情況未來等到一次直接認列的時候會造成台電以及國家重大的負擔第二個我想要請教沈記長的就是國人他所注重的就是我們國家負債的問題\n請教沈記長就您的看法現在我們全台灣整體中央的負債是不是接近五兆已經到五兆我們111年度的結算出來是五兆六千將近五兆六千九百多億謝謝那今年已經到了五兆多以台灣兩千三百萬人來算每一個人的平均負債大概是二十五萬左右\n那這邊要跟這個省紀長報告現在我們國人也是最近我們立法院正在討論的就是有關於特別預算的問題那我覺得省紀部在這邊表現得非常的勇敢因為省紀部在他的這個決算報告說也有寫說107年、108年及111年我們的政府的稅出稅入視為騰餘的其他年度皆為短促顧名思義就是說\n政府的錢都不夠用,尤其112年的儲蓄高達6190億,主要就是因為政府常年制定以特別條例方式編列特別預算,稅出規模龐大以及沒有籌措稅入財源以及多仰賴債務之應。\n所以沈議長這邊你表現我認為你就是本席認為你有把這個問題給講出來就是蔡英文政府在執政這8年運用了非常多特別預算而且這個特別預算他是可以規避我們一般來認列台灣的政府的債務上限那本席這邊有一個資料蔡英文政府在編了特別預算的時候到底讓台灣社會增加多少負債\n能講這本資料嗎我收到的資料好像兩張如果到110因為我們是這樣那個剛剛講是五兆六千九百七十七億減掉當時他接任105年接任的時候是實際債務是五千三百多在111年是增加了四千兩百億可是跟省紀展報告我這邊收到的資料好像比這個數字高很多\n所以會後沒關係我再跟審計長請教一下我講的是我們現在的實際債務已有所以意思就是說他有特別預算的部分有去做償還的部分他都會滾進這個實際他如果去集建會滾進這個實際債務已有裡面好那接下來還是國人比較擔心的就是說政府的負債部分因為你在審計報告中有特別提出其實政府有一些是\n沒有略在我們的國家的負債當中就是所謂俗稱的叫做潛在負債裡面的金額高達20億主要包含的金額就是勞保基金15億的負債以及我們的軍公教人員的退休金的負債裡面的金額就是高達了將近要20億那以\n就本席來算我們全台灣國人2300萬人算起來每一個人的負債會再增加75萬所以負債可能每個人平均會增加到100萬我覺得這是全台灣人民想要去了解的那當然本席知道說這依照國際的一些編制準則這是不需要列在我們一般的政府預算裡面那可是我看審計長那麼認真每年在審計報告中重複的去提到\n有什麼方法來解決?\n這個謝謝委員我們會提出來因為透明是很重要在我們的損濟的一個立場是很重要所以我們會把它提出來那勞保的這一個塊因為我們也希望能夠\n好,謝謝\n謝謝張委員致輪的質詢也謝謝陳審計長的備詢報告院會中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.922 --> 00:10.629\n主席好各位委員各位委員大家好是不是有請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長對選\n\n00:19.700 --> 00:47.926\n張委員好沈記長你好在質詢之前我對沈記長還有我們審計部的團隊先給予高度的肯定因為跟沈記長報告本席是在立法院現在唯一一位具有財經就是唯一一位具有會計師身份執照的這個委員我過去在擔任這個會計師的業務的時候我也是常去企業做審計的工作所以我非常知道說做審計業務相對的困難跟辛苦\n\n00:48.426 --> 01:08.075\n有時候都要加班加到很晚而且還要寫這麼多的建議報告也是第一個要具備勇氣那第二個也要具備讓民眾知道真相那我所以在這邊資訊之前先給我們省紀長跟我們省紀部所有的官員一個高度的肯定謝謝謝謝委員委員很專業的請多主導\n\n01:10.714 --> 01:31.351\n好那接下來我就要請教有關於沈記長現在我們民生民眾相對相對關注相當大的議題就是4月1號就是昨天我們電價上漲調整幅度11%不管是民生工業全面調漲那以及現在我們很多民眾擔心的點就是現在電價調漲以後\n\n01:33.112 --> 01:59.415\n未來物價會不會全面來調漲那其實我們本席認為企業應該要獲利那不管開源跟節流以一般的企業的經營角度來講面對成本上漲產品售價的調整是因應的做法不過相對於我們國營的企業有台電、中油、台水、台糖等企業當在調漲它的售價的時候應該顧及民生的\n\n02:00.115 --> 02:13.400\n需求跟任務要謹慎的來處理那請教沈機長第一個問題剛剛我提到這些台電、中油、台水、台糖等國營企業就您的認為哪一家的企業虧損的最嚴重\n\n02:17.316 --> 02:37.183\n112年有5家虧損,其中台電虧損了1985億元,其中有政府還彌補了它500億,如果不彌補500億,它虧了2485億元。沒錯,沈局長非常專業,這就是我今天要提的,其實台電它的能源政策是否出了問題?\n\n02:39.346 --> 03:01.376\n本席跟沈記長報告這家台電它的公司它的毛利率是負百分之三十它的淨利率負到百分之四十它負債比高達九十八趴以一家企業而言它的繼續經營假設我覺得都非常有問題那也跟沈記長報告現在台灣的能源政策\n\n03:02.296 --> 03:24.354\n想不到在台灣現在蔡英文政府說要推展綠電的時候我們的火力發電居然佔超過80%過去政府對台電的補助基本上已經達到了4500億在蔡英文政府執政下台電也連續包含這是4月1號連續調整了三次的電費調整幅度35%所以\n\n03:32.000 --> 03:47.188\n跟沈記長請問請問台電他是不是有繼續經營假設會不會有未來沒有辦法繼續經營的疑慮他是一個國營事業政府會負最後的責任因為我們也不容台電有任何的損失或者\n\n03:50.130 --> 04:03.602\n這種狀況所以因為它影響到我們國家很重大所以我們這個部分我們是希望台電能夠強化經營體質加強開業節流慢慢慢慢把它整個體質改善\n\n04:04.619 --> 04:15.589\n好謝謝沈機長就本席了解111年的確當時這個國際燃油價格是有些上漲可是就像我剛剛本席跟您報告的在112年、113年其實國際燃料的價格其實有下跌的趨勢\n\n04:21.594 --> 04:40.827\n所以我本席希望說在你明年112年的審計報告的時候千萬不要幫台電背書說國際燃油的價格是下跌造成台電的虧損本席大膽建議是不是可以寫因為政府的錯誤的能源政策因為剛剛本席有給你報告80%變成火力發電以及\n\n04:44.127 --> 05:08.415\n我建議我們審計部要請我們政府好好來檢討台電的採購契約是否有些採購綠電的問題是否已經有不合時宜的部分就像我們去年本席一直在跟很多的我們的委員跟民眾在講從過去到現在一直民眾一直有一個想法而且這也是事實就是台電賺寶綠電虧損全民漲電價\n\n05:13.897 --> 05:29.686\n請問我們審計長剛我講的我們明年度本席有給你建議是不是我們在我們審計報告裡面可以加注政府的出入能源政策造成台電虧損以及台電以及政府應該來協助台電檢討它有關於相對的綠電的採購契約\n\n05:31.451 --> 05:58.009\n向委員報告,我們委員當過會計師我們審計就出去審核意見是要看看我們的審計發現那當然啦,能源這一個再生能源這一個部分售價是比那個成本買的成本是低了但是他的所有的成本除了\n\n05:59.242 --> 06:10.396\n合能和水利以外成本都高於售價所以它是如果這樣下去它的經營會比較相當的困難\n\n06:14.158 --> 06:42.398\n好謝謝沈記長您剛剛有提出的重點就是說無論剛剛本席跟您報告漲電價漲的幅度多少或是政府補助台電的金額4500億這麼高還是沒有辦法抑制台電的虧損所以這是一個相當大的問題所以本席在這邊也希望說未來我們要好好來檢討這個台電尤其剛剛我本席跟你報告綠電的一個問題那最近本席也發現到一件事情也希望沈記長可以一起來協助\n\n06:43.739 --> 07:09.303\n現在聽說私人企業有考慮有直接賣電給一些大型的私人的綠電公司有考慮要直接賣電給一些大型的企業來讓這些大型企業可以買到綠電那本席希望可以幫台電或幫政府來開源所以本席在這邊建議是不是未來這些私人企業這些私人綠電公司在賣給大企業的時候台電應該要用這個收取\n\n07:13.644 --> 07:41.216\n電網使用費就是什麼並網費用的概念讓台電的虧損可以來有些的彌補沈議長知道這件事情嗎我有看到這樣的一個報導這個是當然你經過台電的電網這個因為電網的整個建設也要相當的成本使用到這裡當然使用者互惠這也一樣的他\n\n07:42.898 --> 08:09.632\n民間能夠賣給大企業民間的發電賣給大企業他就可以少收購這些也是一種解決的方式那政府賣綠電是不是有也可以考慮民間的這種綠電的做法所以我們一直希望台電加強開源節流或者強化經營體制\n\n08:12.056 --> 08:32.265\n好謝謝沈記長就是需要說明年的審計報告不要看到說就是說審計部寫這個國際燃油價格下跌倒成台電虧損這邊還是要拜託沈記長幫忙以及我在在看這個台電的這個資產負債表的時候我居然看到台電居然有一個非常龐大的資產2800億是當時合適的興建費用那請教我們沈記長這邊對你來講這個合適的2800億\n\n08:39.208 --> 08:58.647\n的資產到底是資產還是負債因為就本席了解一個資產這麼龐大2800億可是基本上他的合適的建造已經廢掉了而且他已經沒有辦法再幫台灣產生出更多的電力基本未來還需要非常龐大的金額來去做後續廚藝的動作\n\n09:00.569 --> 09:09.055\n那現在帳列2800億的資產是否有是否應該來去做一個價值的減損的部分的討論以及這樣價值減損的部分會不會造成台電未來虧損更嚴重那當時現在為什麼不做台電核市場這個資產減損的原因為何這個我們\n\n09:21.516 --> 09:44.328\n漢委員我們也有提出這樣的一個漢委員剛所講的提出這樣的損失意見經濟部給我們的答覆是他們還在做整個合適租產的一個怎麼樣再應用的一個評估等評估定案了以後我們會做要求他依照公認的會計原理原則來做相關的評價\n\n09:45.683 --> 10:02.704\n好謝謝沈記長本席這邊要提醒沈記長根據蔡英文政府講的2025非核家園照理蔡英文政府的講法應該明年這些兩千多億的資產就應該歸零所以這點我是要跟您報告的那當時我也跟沈記長報告\n\n10:04.601 --> 10:32.534\n經濟部這邊有說有一個資產管理維護計畫其實從106年就已經跟審計部這邊報告說他要來評估已經評估了8年都沒有結論所以我本席在這邊也要大膽這個建議審計長已經拖了8年了已經夠久了那以審計部你沒有權利把這個事情交給監察院來去做一個審議是否這樣子\n\n10:34.616 --> 10:47.173\n讓台灣人民會有個錯誤的想法說其實台電有2800億這麼大的資產其實這個資產是一點價值都沒有的所以這邊要拜託沈記長來幫忙我們可以來評估考慮好謝謝\n\n10:51.245 --> 11:13.955\n好這邊就是我簡單對台電的部分這個是真的要拜託沈記長來協助因為不然台電的這個負債以及當官資產的減損如果不讓國人知道他真正的情況未來等到一次直接認列的時候會造成台電以及國家重大的負擔第二個我想要請教沈記長的就是國人他所注重的就是我們國家負債的問題\n\n11:15.135 --> 11:43.331\n請教沈記長就您的看法現在我們全台灣整體中央的負債是不是接近五兆已經到五兆我們111年度的結算出來是五兆六千將近五兆六千九百多億謝謝那今年已經到了五兆多以台灣兩千三百萬人來算每一個人的平均負債大概是二十五萬左右\n\n11:44.071 --> 12:12.024\n那這邊要跟這個省紀長報告現在我們國人也是最近我們立法院正在討論的就是有關於特別預算的問題那我覺得省紀部在這邊表現得非常的勇敢因為省紀部在他的這個決算報告說也有寫說107年、108年及111年我們的政府的稅出稅入視為騰餘的其他年度皆為短促顧名思義就是說\n\n12:13.373 --> 12:32.042\n政府的錢都不夠用,尤其112年的儲蓄高達6190億,主要就是因為政府常年制定以特別條例方式編列特別預算,稅出規模龐大以及沒有籌措稅入財源以及多仰賴債務之應。\n\n12:34.656 --> 13:01.573\n所以沈議長這邊你表現我認為你就是本席認為你有把這個問題給講出來就是蔡英文政府在執政這8年運用了非常多特別預算而且這個特別預算他是可以規避我們一般來認列台灣的政府的債務上限那本席這邊有一個資料蔡英文政府在編了特別預算的時候到底讓台灣社會增加多少負債\n\n13:07.545 --> 13:30.640\n能講這本資料嗎我收到的資料好像兩張如果到110因為我們是這樣那個剛剛講是五兆六千九百七十七億減掉當時他接任105年接任的時候是實際債務是五千三百多在111年是增加了四千兩百億可是跟省紀展報告我這邊收到的資料好像比這個數字高很多\n\n13:31.727 --> 13:58.561\n所以會後沒關係我再跟審計長請教一下我講的是我們現在的實際債務已有所以意思就是說他有特別預算的部分有去做償還的部分他都會滾進這個實際他如果去集建會滾進這個實際債務已有裡面好那接下來還是國人比較擔心的就是說政府的負債部分因為你在審計報告中有特別提出其實政府有一些是\n\n14:00.885 --> 14:19.094\n沒有略在我們的國家的負債當中就是所謂俗稱的叫做潛在負債裡面的金額高達20億主要包含的金額就是勞保基金15億的負債以及我們的軍公教人員的退休金的負債裡面的金額就是高達了將近要20億那以\n\n14:21.115 --> 14:50.575\n就本席來算我們全台灣國人2300萬人算起來每一個人的負債會再增加75萬所以負債可能每個人平均會增加到100萬我覺得這是全台灣人民想要去了解的那當然本席知道說這依照國際的一些編制準則這是不需要列在我們一般的政府預算裡面那可是我看審計長那麼認真每年在審計報告中重複的去提到\n\n14:51.556 --> 14:52.757\n有什麼方法來解決?\n\n15:09.637 --> 15:23.443\n這個謝謝委員我們會提出來因為透明是很重要在我們的損濟的一個立場是很重要所以我們會把它提出來那勞保的這一個塊因為我們也希望能夠\n\n16:00.397 --> 16:00.417\n好,謝謝\n\n16:11.954 --> 16:13.557\n謝謝張委員致輪的質詢也謝謝陳審計長的備詢報告院會中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.922,"end":10.629,"text":"主席好各位委員各位委員大家好是不是有請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長對選"},{"start":19.7,"end":47.926,"text":"張委員好沈記長你好在質詢之前我對沈記長還有我們審計部的團隊先給予高度的肯定因為跟沈記長報告本席是在立法院現在唯一一位具有財經就是唯一一位具有會計師身份執照的這個委員我過去在擔任這個會計師的業務的時候我也是常去企業做審計的工作所以我非常知道說做審計業務相對的困難跟辛苦"},{"start":48.426,"end":68.075,"text":"有時候都要加班加到很晚而且還要寫這麼多的建議報告也是第一個要具備勇氣那第二個也要具備讓民眾知道真相那我所以在這邊資訊之前先給我們省紀長跟我們省紀部所有的官員一個高度的肯定謝謝謝謝委員委員很專業的請多主導"},{"start":70.714,"end":91.351,"text":"好那接下來我就要請教有關於沈記長現在我們民生民眾相對相對關注相當大的議題就是4月1號就是昨天我們電價上漲調整幅度11%不管是民生工業全面調漲那以及現在我們很多民眾擔心的點就是現在電價調漲以後"},{"start":93.112,"end":119.415,"text":"未來物價會不會全面來調漲那其實我們本席認為企業應該要獲利那不管開源跟節流以一般的企業的經營角度來講面對成本上漲產品售價的調整是因應的做法不過相對於我們國營的企業有台電、中油、台水、台糖等企業當在調漲它的售價的時候應該顧及民生的"},{"start":120.115,"end":133.4,"text":"需求跟任務要謹慎的來處理那請教沈機長第一個問題剛剛我提到這些台電、中油、台水、台糖等國營企業就您的認為哪一家的企業虧損的最嚴重"},{"start":137.316,"end":157.183,"text":"112年有5家虧損,其中台電虧損了1985億元,其中有政府還彌補了它500億,如果不彌補500億,它虧了2485億元。沒錯,沈局長非常專業,這就是我今天要提的,其實台電它的能源政策是否出了問題?"},{"start":159.346,"end":181.376,"text":"本席跟沈記長報告這家台電它的公司它的毛利率是負百分之三十它的淨利率負到百分之四十它負債比高達九十八趴以一家企業而言它的繼續經營假設我覺得都非常有問題那也跟沈記長報告現在台灣的能源政策"},{"start":182.296,"end":204.354,"text":"想不到在台灣現在蔡英文政府說要推展綠電的時候我們的火力發電居然佔超過80%過去政府對台電的補助基本上已經達到了4500億在蔡英文政府執政下台電也連續包含這是4月1號連續調整了三次的電費調整幅度35%所以"},{"start":212,"end":227.188,"text":"跟沈記長請問請問台電他是不是有繼續經營假設會不會有未來沒有辦法繼續經營的疑慮他是一個國營事業政府會負最後的責任因為我們也不容台電有任何的損失或者"},{"start":230.13,"end":243.602,"text":"這種狀況所以因為它影響到我們國家很重大所以我們這個部分我們是希望台電能夠強化經營體質加強開業節流慢慢慢慢把它整個體質改善"},{"start":244.619,"end":255.589,"text":"好 謝謝沈機長就本席了解111年的確當時這個國際燃油價格是有些上漲可是就像我剛剛本席跟您報告的在112年、113年其實國際燃料的價格其實有下跌的趨勢"},{"start":261.594,"end":280.827,"text":"所以我本席希望說在你明年112年的審計報告的時候千萬不要幫台電背書說國際燃油的價格是下跌造成台電的虧損本席大膽建議是不是可以寫因為政府的錯誤的能源政策因為剛剛本席有給你報告80%變成火力發電以及"},{"start":284.127,"end":308.415,"text":"我建議我們審計部要請我們政府好好來檢討台電的採購契約是否有些採購綠電的問題是否已經有不合時宜的部分就像我們去年本席一直在跟很多的我們的委員跟民眾在講從過去到現在一直民眾一直有一個想法而且這也是事實就是台電賺寶綠電虧損全民漲電價"},{"start":313.897,"end":329.686,"text":"請問我們審計長剛我講的我們明年度本席有給你建議是不是我們在我們審計報告裡面可以加注政府的出入能源政策造成台電虧損以及台電以及政府應該來協助台電檢討它有關於相對的綠電的採購契約"},{"start":331.451,"end":358.009,"text":"向委員報告,我們委員當過會計師我們審計就出去審核意見是要看看我們的審計發現那當然啦,能源這一個再生能源這一個部分售價是比那個成本買的成本是低了但是他的所有的成本除了"},{"start":359.242,"end":370.396,"text":"合能和水利以外成本都高於售價所以它是如果這樣下去它的經營會比較相當的困難"},{"start":374.158,"end":402.398,"text":"好 謝謝沈記長您剛剛有提出的重點就是說無論剛剛本席跟您報告漲電價漲的幅度多少或是政府補助台電的金額4500億這麼高還是沒有辦法抑制台電的虧損所以這是一個相當大的問題所以本席在這邊也希望說未來我們要好好來檢討這個台電尤其剛剛我本席跟你報告綠電的一個問題那最近本席也發現到一件事情也希望沈記長可以一起來協助"},{"start":403.739,"end":429.303,"text":"現在聽說私人企業有考慮有直接賣電給一些大型的私人的綠電公司有考慮要直接賣電給一些大型的企業來讓這些大型企業可以買到綠電那本席希望可以幫台電或幫政府來開源所以本席在這邊建議是不是未來這些私人企業這些私人綠電公司在賣給大企業的時候台電應該要用這個收取"},{"start":433.644,"end":461.216,"text":"電網使用費就是什麼並網費用的概念讓台電的虧損可以來有些的彌補沈議長知道這件事情嗎我有看到這樣的一個報導這個是當然你經過台電的電網這個因為電網的整個建設也要相當的成本使用到這裡當然使用者互惠這也一樣的他"},{"start":462.898,"end":489.632,"text":"民間能夠賣給大企業民間的發電賣給大企業他就可以少收購這些也是一種解決的方式那政府賣綠電是不是有也可以考慮民間的這種綠電的做法所以我們一直希望台電加強開源節流或者強化經營體制"},{"start":492.056,"end":512.265,"text":"好 謝謝沈記長就是需要說明年的審計報告不要看到說就是說審計部寫這個國際燃油價格下跌倒成台電虧損這邊還是要拜託沈記長幫忙以及我在在看這個台電的這個資產負債表的時候我居然看到台電居然有一個非常龐大的資產2800億是當時合適的興建費用那請教我們沈記長這邊對你來講這個合適的2800億"},{"start":519.208,"end":538.647,"text":"的資產到底是資產還是負債因為就本席了解一個資產這麼龐大2800億可是基本上他的合適的建造已經廢掉了而且他已經沒有辦法再幫台灣產生出更多的電力基本未來還需要非常龐大的金額來去做後續廚藝的動作"},{"start":540.569,"end":549.055,"text":"那現在帳列2800億的資產是否有是否應該來去做一個價值的減損的部分的討論以及這樣價值減損的部分會不會造成台電未來虧損更嚴重那當時現在為什麼不做台電核市場這個資產減損的原因為何這個我們"},{"start":561.516,"end":584.328,"text":"漢委員我們也有提出這樣的一個漢委員剛所講的提出這樣的損失意見經濟部給我們的答覆是他們還在做整個合適租產的一個怎麼樣再應用的一個評估等評估定案了以後我們會做要求他依照公認的會計原理原則來做相關的評價"},{"start":585.683,"end":602.704,"text":"好 謝謝沈記長本席這邊要提醒沈記長根據蔡英文政府講的2025非核家園照理蔡英文政府的講法應該明年這些兩千多億的資產就應該歸零所以這點我是要跟您報告的那當時我也跟沈記長報告"},{"start":604.601,"end":632.534,"text":"經濟部這邊有說有一個資產管理維護計畫其實從106年就已經跟審計部這邊報告說他要來評估已經評估了8年都沒有結論所以我本席在這邊也要大膽這個建議審計長已經拖了8年了已經夠久了那以審計部你沒有權利把這個事情交給監察院來去做一個審議是否這樣子"},{"start":634.616,"end":647.173,"text":"讓台灣人民會有個錯誤的想法說其實台電有2800億這麼大的資產其實這個資產是一點價值都沒有的所以這邊要拜託沈記長來幫忙我們可以來評估考慮好 謝謝"},{"start":651.245,"end":673.955,"text":"好這邊就是我簡單對台電的部分這個是真的要拜託沈記長來協助因為不然台電的這個負債以及當官資產的減損如果不讓國人知道他真正的情況未來等到一次直接認列的時候會造成台電以及國家重大的負擔第二個我想要請教沈記長的就是國人他所注重的就是我們國家負債的問題"},{"start":675.135,"end":703.331,"text":"請教沈記長就您的看法現在我們全台灣整體中央的負債是不是接近五兆已經到五兆我們111年度的結算出來是五兆六千將近五兆六千九百多億謝謝那今年已經到了五兆多以台灣兩千三百萬人來算每一個人的平均負債大概是二十五萬左右"},{"start":704.071,"end":732.024,"text":"那這邊要跟這個省紀長報告現在我們國人也是最近我們立法院正在討論的就是有關於特別預算的問題那我覺得省紀部在這邊表現得非常的勇敢因為省紀部在他的這個決算報告說也有寫說107年、108年及111年我們的政府的稅出稅入視為騰餘的其他年度皆為短促顧名思義就是說"},{"start":733.373,"end":752.042,"text":"政府的錢都不夠用,尤其112年的儲蓄高達6190億,主要就是因為政府常年制定以特別條例方式編列特別預算,稅出規模龐大以及沒有籌措稅入財源以及多仰賴債務之應。"},{"start":754.656,"end":781.573,"text":"所以沈議長這邊你表現我認為你就是本席認為你有把這個問題給講出來就是蔡英文政府在執政這8年運用了非常多特別預算而且這個特別預算他是可以規避我們一般來認列台灣的政府的債務上限那本席這邊有一個資料蔡英文政府在編了特別預算的時候到底讓台灣社會增加多少負債"},{"start":787.545,"end":810.64,"text":"能講這本資料嗎我收到的資料好像兩張如果到110因為我們是這樣那個剛剛講是五兆六千九百七十七億減掉當時他接任105年接任的時候是實際債務是五千三百多在111年是增加了四千兩百億可是跟省紀展報告我這邊收到的資料好像比這個數字高很多"},{"start":811.727,"end":838.561,"text":"所以會後沒關係我再跟審計長請教一下我講的是我們現在的實際債務已有所以意思就是說他有特別預算的部分有去做償還的部分他都會滾進這個實際他如果去集建會滾進這個實際債務已有裡面好那接下來還是國人比較擔心的就是說政府的負債部分因為你在審計報告中有特別提出其實政府有一些是"},{"start":840.885,"end":859.094,"text":"沒有略在我們的國家的負債當中就是所謂俗稱的叫做潛在負債裡面的金額高達20億主要包含的金額就是勞保基金15億的負債以及我們的軍公教人員的退休金的負債裡面的金額就是高達了將近要20億那以"},{"start":861.115,"end":890.575,"text":"就本席來算我們全台灣國人2300萬人算起來每一個人的負債會再增加75萬所以負債可能每個人平均會增加到100萬我覺得這是全台灣人民想要去了解的那當然本席知道說這依照國際的一些編制準則這是不需要列在我們一般的政府預算裡面那可是我看審計長那麼認真每年在審計報告中重複的去提到"},{"start":891.556,"end":892.757,"text":"有什麼方法來解決?"},{"start":909.637,"end":923.443,"text":"這個謝謝委員我們會提出來因為透明是很重要在我們的損濟的一個立場是很重要所以我們會把它提出來那勞保的這一個塊因為我們也希望能夠"},{"start":960.397,"end":960.417,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":971.954,"end":973.557,"text":"謝謝張委員致輪的質詢也謝謝陳審計長的備詢報告院會中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審"}]}}}}