{"id":150950,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150950","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/871d5246fb87948eef146eaea903cfb72d211db49933aca9f8ba9b0039caa7a6dcda3d33842631a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:23:40 - 09:37:25","影片長度":"00:13:45","會議時間":"2024-04-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部列席就「『擴大幼兒教保公共化』成效及未來策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月10日及11日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-7"},"date":"2024-04-10","duration":825,"end_time":"2024-04-10T09:37:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-10T09:23:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":199,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時23分）謝謝召委，我們請次長跟署長。"],["主席：有請次長、署長。"],["柯委員志恩：次長，今天召委排這個題目，我們當然就是要來檢視一下幼兒教保公共化的一些成效，在2016年就開始推出嘛！我想它最主要的目的就是要能夠減輕家長的經濟負擔。像我自己當媽，我兒子現在已經30歲了，那個時候我也很想讓他進入公幼，但是沒有辦法，基於非常多的因素。那個時候公幼跟私幼的比例大概是7比3，私是7、公是3；現在剛好相反，我們把它擴大解讀好了，有關於準公幼、非營利什麼夯不啷噹，7種的類型全部加在一起，現在大概就是3比7，你覺得這是代表你們的政策成功嗎？"],["林次長明裕：基本上我們透過近便、平價這方面的策略，減輕年輕父母的負擔，這方面我們是有努力。"],["柯委員志恩：你們有努力，你們也覺得算是成效很好的樣子，最主要的目的當然就是希望它能夠讓我們的父母親，因為所謂的托兒有保障可以提高他們願意生育的比率嘛！"],["林次長明裕：減輕負擔。"],["柯委員志恩：希望嘛！對不對？是少子化的一種方法。可是你看看從2016年到2023年，已經變成7比3了，已經符合你們可能需要的，你覺得這算是比較成功嗎？你看出生數，那時候還有千分之八點八六；弄了一大堆之後，到2023，說實在的，我們的出生率變成千分之五點八一，完全是溜滑梯的，所以你覺得這個教保公共化算成功嗎？算嗎？"],["林次長明裕：少子女化的這個政策是中央各部會一起努力的，教育部是其中比較努力的部會……"],["柯委員志恩：對嘛！所以你剛剛說為了要讓大家提高生育率，所以你們把這些部分完全變成公共化，但我告訴你實質的結果，並沒有因為公共化而讓我們的出生率因此有所提高，反而少子化沒有解決，又產生了非常多的問題。因為我想除非是當媽的，否則你要全世界搞出這麼複雜的一個系統，有7種不同的類型，我想這個真的一定要是非常的努力才有辦法看得到。","我們來看一下，既然是這樣子的話，過去我們是要衝量，對不對？現在已經過了量的時期，你覺得總量應該不應該來做管制啊？因為目前為止，像我以前是都抽不到公幼，然後現在不要說是準公，很多公幼、很多地方，有些人是抽籤抽不到，有些是根本就是還有缺額，你瞭解這個狀況嗎？"],["林次長明裕：我瞭解。"],["柯委員志恩：所以你要不要做總量管制？"],["林次長明裕：在人口密集的都會區，它還是有這個需求，像新北好像……"],["柯委員志恩：不是啦！我說你要不要總量管制？你現在告訴我說你還是要繼續擴增準公共化這樣的設備，我就告訴你一個原理……"],["林次長明裕：那個管制會在招生量不足的地方，但對於人口密集地區，我們還是會持續推動。"],["柯委員志恩：你有一個機制嗎？像你今天還要告訴我雲林，我告訴你雲林目前為止就有4間非營利幼兒園，加上1間所謂托兒的這個部分，你要招生289個人，目前缺生率達19%，那這樣你還要再繼續擴增準公共化幼稚園嗎？我的總量管制是指這個。"],["林次長明裕：各區有不同的狀況……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你用什麼方法來總量管制？你有沒有一個科學的方法？"],["林次長明裕：有，我們用每一個鄉鎮地區的人口數。"],["柯委員志恩：人口數，然後呢？"],["林次長明裕：然後再看它園所的招生入學率。"],["柯委員志恩：你要看到它的出生率，有兩個方向，出生率再加上可以進小學的比率，還有所有幼兒園裡面可以招生的人數，你要三個互相做比對。"],["林次長明裕：是，委員提示的是對的。"],["柯委員志恩：對，否則會造成蚊子館。可是你今天的報告當中，就已經看出有很多地方根本缺生率已經不斷的提高，你還要不斷的擴建，就會造成很多資源的浪費啊！所以你才需要一個更科學的方法來做這樣子的管制，這是我要特別提醒的。"],["林次長明裕：我瞭解。"],["柯委員志恩：還有我們今天一定要用一個公平的原則，公平是非常重要的。我想請問同樣是納稅人的錢，所享有的教育資源是不一樣，次長，你知道哪個不一樣嗎？舉例來說，我們現在非營利的這個部分，大概你投入了44億左右，如果再加上什麼職場互助、部落互助等等的，你大概花費了將近到52億，這是非常多非常多的數字，沒錯吧？"],["林次長明裕：對，委員的數字是正確的。"],["柯委員志恩：這個數字正確嘛！但是你對每一種不同類別所實施的方式是有一樣嗎？我舉個例子來說好了，非營利幼稚園當然政府的施力是最多的，你覺得非營利幼稚園跟準公幼他們在評鑑的制度上有不一樣嗎？"],["林次長明裕：非營利有非營利的一些監管辦法，其他的幼兒園有基礎評鑑。"],["柯委員志恩：你覺得其他的基礎評鑑會不會比較嚴格？相對於非營利來說。"],["林次長明裕：評鑑的標準應該是一樣啦！"],["柯委員志恩：當然是不一樣啊！你要不要請署長來回答？"],["林次長明裕：的確是一樣。"],["柯委員志恩：當然是不一樣啊！我幫你放出法規來，就會不一樣啊！署長你要不要補充說明？"],["彭署長富源：分兩點，評鑑的部分是一樣，但是您講到對它學期間的查核那不一樣。"],["柯委員志恩：你們都叫做評鑑，但是非營利不叫評鑑，那叫績效考評，好不好？光是準公幼，它有退場機制，它有些懲罰的機制，甚至可以退場；非營利幼稚園是績效考評，而且你看看結果，你的績效考評還有幼兒父母的滿意情形，這叫滿意情形耶！你這是績效考核，不是評鑑，跟其他另外的類別是不一樣的，雖然你都稱為評鑑，但是裡面的標準就是不一樣。而且你考核裡面的家長滿意度，滿意度是很容易設計的，你覺得這樣考評的可信度有多大？這就是不一樣啊！這不僅是它評鑑的制度不太一樣之外，還有同樣都是納稅人的錢，為什麼……我真的有時候還是要特別提出來一下，我們補助的標準是不是一樣？對於家長的補助標準是不是不一樣？次長。"],["林次長明裕：公共化幼兒園比如說公幼一個月收1,000塊，非營利一個月收2,000塊，準公一個月收3,000塊，是建置於……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有，我說你補助給家長的錢有沒有一樣？我現在是問說，我們同樣是納稅錢，給家長補助的錢有沒有不一樣？有沒有不一樣？"],["林次長明裕：如果精算起來會有不一樣。"],["柯委員志恩：對啊！那為什麼不一樣？同樣是納稅人的錢啊！你說準公幼還有非營利，每個幾乎可以領到1萬5,000塊的補助，那私幼只有領5,000塊啊！領私幼的父母親就不是納稅人啊？為什麼會這樣子？難道你不能給家長更多的自主權嗎？我同樣都是納稅錢，我同樣上幼兒園，你同樣給我1萬5,000塊，我可以選擇我要去什麼地方，根據我自己的需求，讓家長有自主權不行嗎？次長。"],["林次長明裕：這邏輯是不太一樣，比如說我們固定給他育兒津貼或者教保津貼，給他一定的……我兒子在小時候，是固定每個月給我們……"],["柯委員志恩：不是啦！我只告訴你嘛！私幼的家長為什麼可獲得的補助就比較少？有些時候他是非不得以去念私幼，為什麼就給他5,000塊，其他人就給他1萬5,000？我現在是從家長的角度……"],["林次長明裕：是，瞭解。"],["柯委員志恩：對不對？"],["林次長明裕：對。"],["柯委員志恩：就是這樣子啊！這就是產生一個不太公平的狀況嘛！我剛剛是從公平的角度來告訴你、從父母的角度來告訴你，我沒有選擇啊！我旁邊就有一個比較可以的私幼，但是我卻只得到5,000塊的補助，這樣有公平嗎？這樣有公平嗎？如果不公平，你要怎麼改進？還有很多的狀況，這就是目前所造成，我今天完全從公平的角度來看每一件事情嘛！","還有說實在的，你看我們的薪資結構當中，你的公幼的確是老師的薪資比較高，因為他得到政府最高補助，我們都好希望全部都變成公幼，但是沒有辦法，所以你還需要透過非營利、需要準公、需要私幼幫助你來彌補這一塊沒有辦法廣設公幼的一個目標，對不對？你看這些老師的薪資不一樣，所以如果有機會的話，我當然希望能夠進入公幼，如果以幼保的教師來說，然後第二個選擇就是非營利，至於私幼，你罵它說為什麼你只給老師3萬5,000，但問題是它的薪資以及每次家長繳過來的錢，你也給人家限制啊！所以以多樣性來說，說實在的你讓這些所謂的私幼遭受到很大的經營困難，而且不要忘記現在有三成是我們需要靠私幼來幫我們撐起幼教的，不是嗎？"],["林次長明裕：是，私幼對於我們從事教保服務工作，我們仍然認為是夥伴關係啦！"],["柯委員志恩：所以嘛，我告訴你，你給私幼招收時要求家長……他們可以收繳的學費，你設立了一個天花板，以至於讓他們設立天花板之後沒有辦法做更多師資上面、結構上面的彌補嘛！所以這個是我要提醒我們次長，在這部分一定要的……"],["林次長明裕：瞭解。"],["柯委員志恩：政府不要有大小眼，對於家長繳納的稅金，平平大家都是在繳錢，可不可以讓我們有點自主權？這是很重要的。再問一個比較細節的問題，怎麼解決3歲托幼的問題？通常小孩是到3歲的時候，你就被要求一定要脫離我們所謂的托嬰中心，而我們幼兒園就是採學期制的，如果小孩是2月出生的，我到9月才能進去，我可能還有7、8個月的空窗期，你要怎麼辦？你不能採取生理年齡嗎？"],["林次長明裕：有一個彈性延長的辦法。"],["柯委員志恩：我跟你說，你規定托嬰中心滿3歲就必須要退托，但我是2月出生的，我就已經滿3歲啦，可是我要進入學期制的幼兒園要9月才有辦法進去啊！這7個月你要我怎麼辦？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，滿生理2就可以入園，這個在最近的委員會都有同意，也照這個方向，現在甚至我在108年預算審查……"],["柯委員志恩：所以也沒辦法做到嘛！"],["彭署長富源：預算審查的2歲班才400班，這次跟委員會陳報958班，所以一直照委員會的意見在處理中。"],["柯委員志恩：對，有沒有辦法讓他滿3歲，生理年齡滿3歲就可以進入幼兒園，有沒有機會？"],["彭署長富源：有。"],["柯委員志恩：好吧！這個事你要做出承諾，否則那7個月家長會瘋掉！"],["彭署長富源：對，所以現在才會那麼多班，有到958班。"],["柯委員志恩：好，最後時間有限，我問一個問題，我們往下看現職的教保人員，這是他們給我寫的一個陳情信，他們就很想去做這樣子的一個進修，但是他們查看目前唯一的就只有在清華大學有這樣子的課程。然後我們南部所辦理的目前就是臺南應用科大，但歹勢，你們現在已經停招了，以至於要再進修的這一群南部的教保人員沒有學校可以讀啦！要怎麼辦啦？次長，這合理嗎？你讓我們高雄、臺南、屏東地區的幼教人員很惋惜，現在南部唯一有的、可以認證也沒有了，臺南應用大學沒有，現在只有清大可以，這樣合理嗎？"],["林次長明裕：好，我們讓師藝司來做一下補充。"],["王副司長淑娟：我們目前跟國教署在盤，接下來會配合他們的需求……"],["柯委員志恩：所以呢？"],["王副司長淑娟：不管是協調南部的學校還是協調學校開班……"],["柯委員志恩：我就告訴你，現在就是有這樣的需求嘛！而且遠距教學之類的，他們就是有這樣需求嘛！你不能……"],["王副司長淑娟：今年就會開始。"],["柯委員志恩：今年就會開始？就會開始有遠距教學，讓這些真的想進修的教保人員……"],["王副司長淑娟：有遠距跟異地開班，我們都已經在協調。"],["柯委員志恩：都已經在協調，什麼時候可以開始？今年？"],["王副司長淑娟：今年就會開始。"],["彭署長富源：4月15號完成調查。"],["柯委員志恩：調查然後呢？"],["彭署長富源：今年就可以開學了。"],["王副司長淑娟：對。"],["柯委員志恩：哪裡？什麼時候？9月？"],["王副司長淑娟：今年的9月。"],["柯委員志恩：今年9月，我們就來看看，這是南部教保人員要進修，給人家一個機會，這才是一個能夠讓我們提升幼保品質非常重要的一個機制，好不好？還有次長，我剛剛所講的這些，從公平的角度來去看，不管是準公幼，還是有關於非營利幼稚園，他們退場的機制、評核的標準要一樣，最重要是給家長一個自主的空間，給予平權，同樣是納稅人的錢，給他們同樣權利，由他們自由來做一個選擇，也給私幼一點空間。","特別是我最後要提到一個，我們的公幼已經有3年，對於準公共化，你們是花了非常多的錢，沒有錯，可是我們很多公共的幼稚園當中，他們3年想要增加設備都做不到欸！你知道有這樣的狀況嗎？我最後問次長，剛好利用這個機會，30秒，目前來說，很多時候我們的公設幼稚園裡面，基本上他們如果要來做一些基礎建設的補強，恐怕要3年，以前是每年都可以，只要提出來就可以，但現在3年搞不好都得不到這樣子一個所謂硬體上面的部分，這該怎麼辦？"],["林次長明裕：我們有受理了。"],["柯委員志恩：你們有受理？"],["林次長明裕：是。"],["柯委員志恩：你可不可以留一份報告給我？"],["林次長明裕：好，我們提供書面資料給委員。"],["柯委員志恩：好不好？有關於這個部分。因為公幼是你們的指標……"],["林次長明裕：公幼設備的擴充是有必要的。"],["柯委員志恩：不要3年都還拿不到任何的經費，這對很多公幼的執行面來說，是一個非常大的問題，好不好？"],["林次長明裕：謝謝委員的提示，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝柯志恩召委，林次跟彭署長請回。","我們再來請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":320,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","范雲","李坤城","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"柯\", \"start\": 803.393, \"end\": 803.453, \"score\": 0.624}, {\"word\": \"志\", \"start\": 803.453, \"end\": 803.553, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"恩\", \"start\": 803.553, \"end\": 803.653, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"召\", \"start\": 803.653, \"end\": 803.793, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 803.793, \"end\": 803.813, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,245 --> 00:00:09,338\n謝謝召委我們請次長跟署長有請次長署長\n\n2\n00:00:13,015 --> 00:00:39,554\n好謝謝來次長我們想今天召委排這個題目我們當然就是要來解釋一下我們這個幼兒教保公共化的一些的成效在2016年就開始推出嘛那我想它最主要的目的就是要能夠減輕我們家長的一個經濟的一個負擔像我自己當媽的時候在那個時候我兒子現在已經30歲了我也很想讓他進入公幼但是沒有辦法基於非常多的因素那個時候呢大概公幼跟私幼的比率是大概是7比3\n\n3\n00:00:40,675 --> 00:00:41,076\n李卓人議員\n\n4\n00:00:58,670 --> 00:01:07,039\n基本上我們透過這樣的競變評價這方面的策略減輕年輕父母的負擔這方面我們是有努力你們一說努力也算是成效很好的樣子那你大家最主要的目的當然就是希望他能夠讓我們的父母親因為這個所謂的托兒有保障可以提高他們願意生育的比率可是你看看\n\n5\n00:01:21,773 --> 00:01:45,378\n希望嘛對不對是少子化的一種方法可是你看嘛從2016年到2023你已經變成7比3了已經符合你們可能需要的你覺得這算是比較成功嗎你看我們出生數你從那時候還有8.86弄了一大堆之後到2023說實在的現在我們的出生率也變成千分之5.81完全是溜滑梯的所以你覺得這個教保公共化算成功嗎\n\n6\n00:01:47,729 --> 00:02:06,464\n少子女化的這個政策是中央各部會一起努力的教育部是其中比較努力的部分對嘛所以我聽你說嘛你剛剛講說為了要讓大家提高生育率所以你們把這些的部分完全變公共化結果我告訴你實質的結果並沒有因為公共化而讓我們的出生率因此有所提高你反而因為少子女化沒有解決\n\n7\n00:02:07,185 --> 00:02:07,305\n主席\n\n8\n00:02:30,402 --> 00:02:45,001\n因為目前為止以前公幼是像我都抽不到然後現在為止我們不僅不要說是總公荒很多的公幼很多地方是有些人是抽圈抽不到有些是根本就是還有缺額你了解這個狀況吧所以說你要不要做總量管制\n\n9\n00:02:48,722 --> 00:03:13,868\n在人口密集的都瑞區他還是有這個需求像新北像不是啦我說你要不要總量管制你現在告訴我說你還是要繼續擴增這個總公共化的這樣一個設備我就告訴你一個雲林那個管制會在管制招生量不足的地方但對於人口密集地區我們還是有需求你有一個機制嗎像你今天還要告訴我雲林我告訴你雲林目前為止就有四間的非營利幼兒園加上一間的這個\n\n10\n00:03:15,308 --> 00:03:44,082\n還有再加上一間的他們所謂的托兒的這個部分你要招生289個人目前缺生率達19%那你這樣你還要再繼續擴增你的公共化幼稚園嗎?我的總量管制是指這個?各區有不同的狀況你有什麼方法來總量管制嗎?你有沒有一個科學的方法?有,我們用每個鄉鎮地區的人口數人口數然後呢?然後再看他原所的招生入學率\n\n11\n00:03:44,741 --> 00:04:14,222\n你要看到他的出生率有兩個方法出生率再加上你可以進小學的比率還有就是你的所有的幼兒園裡面可以遭受的人數你要三個互相做比對委員提示的是對的對否則你會造成蚊子管可是你今天的報告當中就已經看出有很多地方根本缺生數已經不斷的提高你還要不斷的擴建你就會造成很多資源的浪費啊所以你才需要一個更科學的方法來做這樣子的一個管制這是我要特別提醒的\n\n12\n00:04:14,822 --> 00:04:37,989\n還有呢我們今天一定要用一個公平的原則公平是一個非常重要的那我想請問嘛同樣是納稅人的錢所享用的教育資源是不一樣喔次造你知道哪個不一樣嗎舉例來說我們現在非盈利的這個部分呢大概你投資了44億左右你如果再加上什麼職場互助啊部落互助等等的你大概花費了將近到52億這是非常多非常多的一個數字沒錯吧\n\n13\n00:04:44,261 --> 00:04:45,883\n非營利幼稚園和準公幼在平靜的制度上有不一樣嗎?\n\n14\n00:05:02,608 --> 00:05:06,329\n委員分兩點貧賤的部分是一樣但是您講到對他期間學期間的查核那不一樣\n\n15\n00:05:31,497 --> 00:05:35,341\n你們都叫做評鑑但是非營利那不是叫評鑑那叫績效考評好不好你光是你光是非你光是准公幼他有退場機制他有些懲罰的機制裡面甚至可以退場非營利幼稚園你是績效考評而且你看看結果\n\n16\n00:05:46,994 --> 00:05:49,555\n你的績效考評還有幼兒父母的滿意情形這叫滿意情形你這次績效考核不是評鑑跟其他的類別來說是不一樣的雖然你都免稱為評鑑但是你們的標準就是不一樣而且你考核的部分裡面家長滿意度滿意度是很容易設計的你覺得這樣考評的可信度有多大\n\n17\n00:06:09,665 --> 00:06:09,925\n4月10日及11日二天一次會議\n\n18\n00:06:28,503 --> 00:06:42,475\n公共化幼兒園比如說公幼一個月收一千塊啦非營利一個月收兩千塊准公一個月收三千塊是建置於沒有我說家長你補助給家長的補助給家長的錢有沒有一樣我現在問說我們通常是納稅錢家長給補助的錢有沒有不一樣有沒有不一樣\n\n19\n00:06:47,850 --> 00:07:15,982\n你如果計算起來會有不一樣對啊那為什麼不一樣通常是納稅人的錢啊你說總共又還有這個肥一定每個幾乎可以領到一萬五千塊的補助那私幼只有領到五千塊啊領私幼的人的父母親就不是納稅人啊為什麼會這樣子難道你不能給家長更多的自主權嗎我同樣都是納稅勤我同樣上幼兒園你同樣給我一萬五千塊我可以選擇我要去什麼地方根據我自己的需求讓家長有自主權不行嗎次長\n\n20\n00:07:39,062 --> 00:07:42,024\n阿就是這樣子阿然後這就是產生一個不太公平的狀況嘛我剛剛是從公平的角度來告訴你從父母的角度來告訴你我沒有選擇阿我旁邊就有一個比較可以的私有但是我卻只能到五千塊的補助阿這樣有公平嗎\n\n21\n00:07:53,933 --> 00:08:23,522\n阿祖母公伯你要怎麼改進還有呢很多的狀況這就是目前所造成我今天完全從公平的角度來看每一件事情還有呢說實在你看我們的薪資結構當中你的公幼的確是老師的薪資比較高因為他得到政府最大補助我們都好希望全部都是變公幼但是沒有辦法所以你還需要透過非營利需要準工需要私幼來幫助你來彌補這一塊沒有辦法廣設公幼的一個目標嘛對不對所以你看這些老師的薪資不一樣\n\n22\n00:08:23,962 --> 00:08:33,030\n所以如果有機會的話我當然希望能夠進入公幼我以幼保的教師來說然後第二個選擇就是非林立那私幼呢你可以罵他說為什麼你只給老師三萬五那問題是他遭受的薪資他每次給家長繳過來的錢你也給人家限制啊所以你讓他的整個多樣性來說說實在的你讓這些所謂的私幼裡面\n\n23\n00:08:47,403 --> 00:08:47,583\n主席主席\n\n24\n00:09:15,097 --> 00:09:15,597\n李慧琼教授\n\n25\n00:09:40,208 --> 00:09:40,829\n你不能採取生理年齡嗎?\n\n26\n00:10:01,987 --> 00:10:03,750\n有個彈性的延長的辦法\n\n27\n00:10:18,220 --> 00:10:41,261\n跟委員報告滿生理二就可以入園這個事在最近的委員會都有同意也照這個方向現在甚至我在108年所以有沒有辦法做到嗎預算審查的二歲班才400班這次跟委員會承包958班所以一直照委員會的意見有在處理中對有沒有辦法讓他滿三歲生理年滿三歲就可以進入幼兒園有沒有機會有\n\n28\n00:10:43,323 --> 00:11:03,980\n這是你要做出承諾否則那7個月把家長會瘋掉所以現在才會那麼多班那我最後時間有些我這樣子問一個來我們往下去看我們現職的教保人員這是他們給我寫的一個陳情信他們就很想去做這樣子的一個進修但是呢他們查看在我們南部當中唯一的就只有在清華大學\n\n29\n00:11:04,921 --> 00:11:04,961\n市議師補充\n\n30\n00:11:35,833 --> 00:11:37,073\n4月15日完成調查9月就可以開學了\n\n31\n00:12:05,061 --> 00:12:27,455\n今年的九月我們就來看看這是就是南部教保人家要進修給人家一個機會這才是一個能夠讓我們幼保品質非常重要的一個機制好不好還有次造我剛所講的這些從公平的角度來去看不管是準公幼還是有關於非營利幼稚園他們的退場的機制平衡的標準要一樣最重要是給家長一個自主的空間\n\n32\n00:12:28,095 --> 00:12:28,135\n主席\n\n33\n00:12:43,331 --> 00:12:43,471\n李慧琼議員\n\n34\n00:13:01,013 --> 00:13:22,560\n我們現在目前來說的話我們很多時候公共幼稚園好不好我們的公社幼稚園裡面他們基本上面如果要來做一些基礎建設的補強上面搞不好要三年以前是每年都可以只要提出來就可以現在三年搞不好都得不到這樣子的一個所謂的硬體上面的部分這該怎麼辦好我們注意一下對我們有受理的\n\n35\n00:13:23,393 --> 00:13:23,813\n謝謝柯志恩召委\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5245\t9338\t謝謝召委 我們請次長跟署長有請次長 署長\n13015\t39554\t好 謝謝來 次長我們想今天召委排這個題目我們當然就是要來解釋一下我們這個幼兒教保公共化的一些的成效在2016年就開始推出嘛那我想它最主要的目的就是要能夠減輕我們家長的一個經濟的一個負擔像我自己當媽的時候在那個時候我兒子現在已經30歲了我也很想讓他進入公幼但是沒有辦法基於非常多的因素那個時候呢大概公幼跟私幼的比率是大概是7比3\n40675\t41076\t李卓人議員\n58670\t67039\t基本上我們透過這樣的競變評價這方面的策略減輕年輕父母的負擔這方面我們是有努力你們一說努力也算是成效很好的樣子那你大家最主要的目的當然就是希望他能夠讓我們的父母親因為這個所謂的托兒有保障可以提高他們願意生育的比率可是你看看\n81773\t105378\t希望嘛 對不對是少子化的一種方法可是你看嘛從2016年到2023你已經變成7比3了已經符合你們可能需要的你覺得這算是比較成功嗎你看我們出生數你從那時候還有8.86弄了一大堆之後到2023說實在的現在我們的出生率也變成千分之5.81完全是溜滑梯的所以你覺得這個教保公共化算成功嗎\n107729\t126464\t少子女化的這個政策是中央各部會一起努力的教育部是其中比較努力的部分對嘛 所以我聽你說嘛你剛剛講說為了要讓大家提高生育率所以你們把這些的部分完全變公共化結果我告訴你實質的結果並沒有因為公共化而讓我們的出生率因此有所提高你反而因為少子女化沒有解決\n127185\t127305\t主席\n150402\t165001\t因為目前為止以前公幼是像我都抽不到然後現在為止我們不僅不要說是總公荒很多的公幼很多地方是有些人是抽圈抽不到有些是根本就是還有缺額你了解這個狀況吧所以說你要不要做總量管制\n168722\t193868\t在人口密集的都瑞區他還是有這個需求像新北像不是啦我說你要不要總量管制你現在告訴我說你還是要繼續擴增這個總公共化的這樣一個設備我就告訴你一個雲林那個管制會在管制招生量不足的地方但對於人口密集地區我們還是有需求你有一個機制嗎像你今天還要告訴我雲林我告訴你雲林目前為止就有四間的非營利幼兒園加上一間的這個\n195308\t224082\t還有再加上一間的他們所謂的托兒的這個部分你要招生289個人目前缺生率達19%那你這樣你還要再繼續擴增你的公共化幼稚園嗎?我的總量管制是指這個?各區有不同的狀況你有什麼方法來總量管制嗎?你有沒有一個科學的方法?有,我們用每個鄉鎮地區的人口數人口數然後呢?然後再看他原所的招生入學率\n224741\t254222\t你要看到他的出生率有兩個方法出生率再加上你可以進小學的比率還有就是你的所有的幼兒園裡面可以遭受的人數你要三個互相做比對委員提示的是對的對否則你會造成蚊子管可是你今天的報告當中就已經看出有很多地方根本缺生數已經不斷的提高你還要不斷的擴建你就會造成很多資源的浪費啊所以你才需要一個更科學的方法來做這樣子的一個管制這是我要特別提醒的\n254822\t277989\t還有呢我們今天一定要用一個公平的原則公平是一個非常重要的那我想請問嘛同樣是納稅人的錢所享用的教育資源是不一樣喔次造你知道哪個不一樣嗎舉例來說我們現在非盈利的這個部分呢大概你投資了44億左右你如果再加上什麼職場互助啊部落互助等等的你大概花費了將近到52億這是非常多非常多的一個數字沒錯吧\n284261\t285883\t非營利幼稚園和準公幼在平靜的制度上有不一樣嗎?\n302608\t306329\t委員分兩點 貧賤的部分是一樣但是您講到對他期間學期間的查核那不一樣\n331497\t335341\t你們都叫做評鑑但是非營利那不是叫評鑑那叫績效考評好不好你光是你光是非你光是准公幼他有退場機制他有些懲罰的機制裡面甚至可以退場非營利幼稚園你是績效考評而且你看看結果\n346994\t349555\t你的績效考評還有幼兒父母的滿意情形這叫滿意情形你這次績效考核不是評鑑跟其他的類別來說是不一樣的雖然你都免稱為評鑑但是你們的標準就是不一樣而且你考核的部分裡面家長滿意度滿意度是很容易設計的你覺得這樣考評的可信度有多大\n369665\t369925\t4月10日及11日二天一次會議\n388503\t402475\t公共化幼兒園比如說公幼一個月收一千塊啦非營利一個月收兩千塊准公一個月收三千塊是建置於沒有我說家長你補助給家長的補助給家長的錢有沒有一樣我現在問說我們通常是納稅錢家長給補助的錢有沒有不一樣有沒有不一樣\n407850\t435982\t你如果計算起來會有不一樣對啊 那為什麼不一樣 通常是納稅人的錢啊你說總共又還有這個肥一定每個幾乎可以領到一萬五千塊的補助那私幼只有領到五千塊啊領私幼的人的父母親就不是納稅人啊為什麼會這樣子難道你不能給家長更多的自主權嗎我同樣都是納稅勤 我同樣上幼兒園你同樣給我一萬五千塊我可以選擇我要去什麼地方根據我自己的需求讓家長有自主權不行嗎 次長\n437551\t459002\t對﹗\n459062\t462024\t阿就是這樣子阿然後這就是產生一個不太公平的狀況嘛我剛剛是從公平的角度來告訴你從父母的角度來告訴你我沒有選擇阿我旁邊就有一個比較可以的私有但是我卻只能到五千塊的補助阿這樣有公平嗎\n473933\t503522\t阿祖母公伯 你要怎麼改進還有呢 很多的狀況這就是目前所造成我今天完全從公平的角度來看每一件事情還有呢 說實在你看我們的薪資結構當中你的公幼的確是老師的薪資比較高因為他得到政府最大補助我們都好希望全部都是變公幼但是沒有辦法所以你還需要透過非營利需要準工需要私幼來幫助你來彌補這一塊沒有辦法廣設公幼的一個目標嘛 對不對所以你看這些老師的薪資不一樣\n503962\t513030\t所以如果有機會的話我當然希望能夠進入公幼我以幼保的教師來說然後第二個選擇就是非林立那私幼呢你可以罵他說為什麼你只給老師三萬五那問題是他遭受的薪資他每次給家長繳過來的錢你也給人家限制啊所以你讓他的整個多樣性來說說實在的你讓這些所謂的私幼裡面\n527403\t527583\t主席主席\n555097\t555597\t李慧琼教授\n580208\t580829\t你不能採取生理年齡嗎?\n601987\t603750\t有個彈性的延長的辦法\n618220\t641261\t跟委員報告滿生理二就可以入園這個事在最近的委員會都有同意也照這個方向現在甚至我在108年所以有沒有辦法做到嗎預算審查的二歲班才400班這次跟委員會承包958班所以一直照委員會的意見有在處理中對有沒有辦法讓他滿三歲生理年滿三歲就可以進入幼兒園有沒有機會有\n643323\t663980\t這是你要做出承諾否則那7個月把家長會瘋掉所以現在才會那麼多班那我最後時間有些我這樣子問一個來我們往下去看我們現職的教保人員這是他們給我寫的一個陳情信他們就很想去做這樣子的一個進修但是呢他們查看在我們南部當中唯一的就只有在清華大學\n664921\t664961\t市議師補充\n695833\t697073\t4月15日完成調查9月就可以開學了\n725061\t747455\t今年的九月我們就來看看這是就是南部教保人家要進修給人家一個機會這才是一個能夠讓我們幼保品質非常重要的一個機制好不好還有次造我剛所講的這些從公平的角度來去看不管是準公幼還是有關於非營利幼稚園他們的退場的機制平衡的標準要一樣最重要是給家長一個自主的空間\n748095\t748135\t主席\n763331\t763471\t李慧琼議員\n781013\t802560\t我們現在目前來說的話我們很多時候公共幼稚園好不好我們的公社幼稚園裡面他們基本上面如果要來做一些基礎建設的補強上面搞不好要三年以前是每年都可以只要提出來就可以現在三年搞不好都得不到這樣子的一個所謂的硬體上面的部分這該怎麼辦好我們注意一下對我們有受理的\n803393\t803813\t謝謝柯志恩召委\n","txt":"謝謝召委 我們請次長跟署長有請次長 署長\n好 謝謝來 次長我們想今天召委排這個題目我們當然就是要來解釋一下我們這個幼兒教保公共化的一些的成效在2016年就開始推出嘛那我想它最主要的目的就是要能夠減輕我們家長的一個經濟的一個負擔像我自己當媽的時候在那個時候我兒子現在已經30歲了我也很想讓他進入公幼但是沒有辦法基於非常多的因素那個時候呢大概公幼跟私幼的比率是大概是7比3\n李卓人議員\n基本上我們透過這樣的競變評價這方面的策略減輕年輕父母的負擔這方面我們是有努力你們一說努力也算是成效很好的樣子那你大家最主要的目的當然就是希望他能夠讓我們的父母親因為這個所謂的托兒有保障可以提高他們願意生育的比率可是你看看\n希望嘛 對不對是少子化的一種方法可是你看嘛從2016年到2023你已經變成7比3了已經符合你們可能需要的你覺得這算是比較成功嗎你看我們出生數你從那時候還有8.86弄了一大堆之後到2023說實在的現在我們的出生率也變成千分之5.81完全是溜滑梯的所以你覺得這個教保公共化算成功嗎\n少子女化的這個政策是中央各部會一起努力的教育部是其中比較努力的部分對嘛 所以我聽你說嘛你剛剛講說為了要讓大家提高生育率所以你們把這些的部分完全變公共化結果我告訴你實質的結果並沒有因為公共化而讓我們的出生率因此有所提高你反而因為少子女化沒有解決\n主席\n因為目前為止以前公幼是像我都抽不到然後現在為止我們不僅不要說是總公荒很多的公幼很多地方是有些人是抽圈抽不到有些是根本就是還有缺額你了解這個狀況吧所以說你要不要做總量管制\n在人口密集的都瑞區他還是有這個需求像新北像不是啦我說你要不要總量管制你現在告訴我說你還是要繼續擴增這個總公共化的這樣一個設備我就告訴你一個雲林那個管制會在管制招生量不足的地方但對於人口密集地區我們還是有需求你有一個機制嗎像你今天還要告訴我雲林我告訴你雲林目前為止就有四間的非營利幼兒園加上一間的這個\n還有再加上一間的他們所謂的托兒的這個部分你要招生289個人目前缺生率達19%那你這樣你還要再繼續擴增你的公共化幼稚園嗎?我的總量管制是指這個?各區有不同的狀況你有什麼方法來總量管制嗎?你有沒有一個科學的方法?有,我們用每個鄉鎮地區的人口數人口數然後呢?然後再看他原所的招生入學率\n你要看到他的出生率有兩個方法出生率再加上你可以進小學的比率還有就是你的所有的幼兒園裡面可以遭受的人數你要三個互相做比對委員提示的是對的對否則你會造成蚊子管可是你今天的報告當中就已經看出有很多地方根本缺生數已經不斷的提高你還要不斷的擴建你就會造成很多資源的浪費啊所以你才需要一個更科學的方法來做這樣子的一個管制這是我要特別提醒的\n還有呢我們今天一定要用一個公平的原則公平是一個非常重要的那我想請問嘛同樣是納稅人的錢所享用的教育資源是不一樣喔次造你知道哪個不一樣嗎舉例來說我們現在非盈利的這個部分呢大概你投資了44億左右你如果再加上什麼職場互助啊部落互助等等的你大概花費了將近到52億這是非常多非常多的一個數字沒錯吧\n非營利幼稚園和準公幼在平靜的制度上有不一樣嗎?\n委員分兩點 貧賤的部分是一樣但是您講到對他期間學期間的查核那不一樣\n你們都叫做評鑑但是非營利那不是叫評鑑那叫績效考評好不好你光是你光是非你光是准公幼他有退場機制他有些懲罰的機制裡面甚至可以退場非營利幼稚園你是績效考評而且你看看結果\n你的績效考評還有幼兒父母的滿意情形這叫滿意情形你這次績效考核不是評鑑跟其他的類別來說是不一樣的雖然你都免稱為評鑑但是你們的標準就是不一樣而且你考核的部分裡面家長滿意度滿意度是很容易設計的你覺得這樣考評的可信度有多大\n4月10日及11日二天一次會議\n公共化幼兒園比如說公幼一個月收一千塊啦非營利一個月收兩千塊准公一個月收三千塊是建置於沒有我說家長你補助給家長的補助給家長的錢有沒有一樣我現在問說我們通常是納稅錢家長給補助的錢有沒有不一樣有沒有不一樣\n你如果計算起來會有不一樣對啊 那為什麼不一樣 通常是納稅人的錢啊你說總共又還有這個肥一定每個幾乎可以領到一萬五千塊的補助那私幼只有領到五千塊啊領私幼的人的父母親就不是納稅人啊為什麼會這樣子難道你不能給家長更多的自主權嗎我同樣都是納稅勤 我同樣上幼兒園你同樣給我一萬五千塊我可以選擇我要去什麼地方根據我自己的需求讓家長有自主權不行嗎 次長\n對﹗\n阿就是這樣子阿然後這就是產生一個不太公平的狀況嘛我剛剛是從公平的角度來告訴你從父母的角度來告訴你我沒有選擇阿我旁邊就有一個比較可以的私有但是我卻只能到五千塊的補助阿這樣有公平嗎\n阿祖母公伯 你要怎麼改進還有呢 很多的狀況這就是目前所造成我今天完全從公平的角度來看每一件事情還有呢 說實在你看我們的薪資結構當中你的公幼的確是老師的薪資比較高因為他得到政府最大補助我們都好希望全部都是變公幼但是沒有辦法所以你還需要透過非營利需要準工需要私幼來幫助你來彌補這一塊沒有辦法廣設公幼的一個目標嘛 對不對所以你看這些老師的薪資不一樣\n所以如果有機會的話我當然希望能夠進入公幼我以幼保的教師來說然後第二個選擇就是非林立那私幼呢你可以罵他說為什麼你只給老師三萬五那問題是他遭受的薪資他每次給家長繳過來的錢你也給人家限制啊所以你讓他的整個多樣性來說說實在的你讓這些所謂的私幼裡面\n主席主席\n李慧琼教授\n你不能採取生理年齡嗎?\n有個彈性的延長的辦法\n跟委員報告滿生理二就可以入園這個事在最近的委員會都有同意也照這個方向現在甚至我在108年所以有沒有辦法做到嗎預算審查的二歲班才400班這次跟委員會承包958班所以一直照委員會的意見有在處理中對有沒有辦法讓他滿三歲生理年滿三歲就可以進入幼兒園有沒有機會有\n這是你要做出承諾否則那7個月把家長會瘋掉所以現在才會那麼多班那我最後時間有些我這樣子問一個來我們往下去看我們現職的教保人員這是他們給我寫的一個陳情信他們就很想去做這樣子的一個進修但是呢他們查看在我們南部當中唯一的就只有在清華大學\n市議師補充\n4月15日完成調查9月就可以開學了\n今年的九月我們就來看看這是就是南部教保人家要進修給人家一個機會這才是一個能夠讓我們幼保品質非常重要的一個機制好不好還有次造我剛所講的這些從公平的角度來去看不管是準公幼還是有關於非營利幼稚園他們的退場的機制平衡的標準要一樣最重要是給家長一個自主的空間\n主席\n李慧琼議員\n我們現在目前來說的話我們很多時候公共幼稚園好不好我們的公社幼稚園裡面他們基本上面如果要來做一些基礎建設的補強上面搞不好要三年以前是每年都可以只要提出來就可以現在三年搞不好都得不到這樣子的一個所謂的硬體上面的部分這該怎麼辦好我們注意一下對我們有受理的\n謝謝柯志恩召委\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.245 --> 00:09.338\n謝謝召委我們請次長跟署長有請次長署長\n\n00:13.015 --> 00:39.554\n好謝謝來次長我們想今天召委排這個題目我們當然就是要來解釋一下我們這個幼兒教保公共化的一些的成效在2016年就開始推出嘛那我想它最主要的目的就是要能夠減輕我們家長的一個經濟的一個負擔像我自己當媽的時候在那個時候我兒子現在已經30歲了我也很想讓他進入公幼但是沒有辦法基於非常多的因素那個時候呢大概公幼跟私幼的比率是大概是7比3\n\n00:40.675 --> 00:41.076\n李卓人議員\n\n00:58.670 --> 01:07.039\n基本上我們透過這樣的競變評價這方面的策略減輕年輕父母的負擔這方面我們是有努力你們一說努力也算是成效很好的樣子那你大家最主要的目的當然就是希望他能夠讓我們的父母親因為這個所謂的托兒有保障可以提高他們願意生育的比率可是你看看\n\n01:21.773 --> 01:45.378\n希望嘛對不對是少子化的一種方法可是你看嘛從2016年到2023你已經變成7比3了已經符合你們可能需要的你覺得這算是比較成功嗎你看我們出生數你從那時候還有8.86弄了一大堆之後到2023說實在的現在我們的出生率也變成千分之5.81完全是溜滑梯的所以你覺得這個教保公共化算成功嗎\n\n01:47.729 --> 02:06.464\n少子女化的這個政策是中央各部會一起努力的教育部是其中比較努力的部分對嘛所以我聽你說嘛你剛剛講說為了要讓大家提高生育率所以你們把這些的部分完全變公共化結果我告訴你實質的結果並沒有因為公共化而讓我們的出生率因此有所提高你反而因為少子女化沒有解決\n\n02:07.185 --> 02:07.305\n主席\n\n02:30.402 --> 02:45.001\n因為目前為止以前公幼是像我都抽不到然後現在為止我們不僅不要說是總公荒很多的公幼很多地方是有些人是抽圈抽不到有些是根本就是還有缺額你了解這個狀況吧所以說你要不要做總量管制\n\n02:48.722 --> 03:13.868\n在人口密集的都瑞區他還是有這個需求像新北像不是啦我說你要不要總量管制你現在告訴我說你還是要繼續擴增這個總公共化的這樣一個設備我就告訴你一個雲林那個管制會在管制招生量不足的地方但對於人口密集地區我們還是有需求你有一個機制嗎像你今天還要告訴我雲林我告訴你雲林目前為止就有四間的非營利幼兒園加上一間的這個\n\n03:15.308 --> 03:44.082\n還有再加上一間的他們所謂的托兒的這個部分你要招生289個人目前缺生率達19%那你這樣你還要再繼續擴增你的公共化幼稚園嗎?我的總量管制是指這個?各區有不同的狀況你有什麼方法來總量管制嗎?你有沒有一個科學的方法?有,我們用每個鄉鎮地區的人口數人口數然後呢?然後再看他原所的招生入學率\n\n03:44.741 --> 04:14.222\n你要看到他的出生率有兩個方法出生率再加上你可以進小學的比率還有就是你的所有的幼兒園裡面可以遭受的人數你要三個互相做比對委員提示的是對的對否則你會造成蚊子管可是你今天的報告當中就已經看出有很多地方根本缺生數已經不斷的提高你還要不斷的擴建你就會造成很多資源的浪費啊所以你才需要一個更科學的方法來做這樣子的一個管制這是我要特別提醒的\n\n04:14.822 --> 04:37.989\n還有呢我們今天一定要用一個公平的原則公平是一個非常重要的那我想請問嘛同樣是納稅人的錢所享用的教育資源是不一樣喔次造你知道哪個不一樣嗎舉例來說我們現在非盈利的這個部分呢大概你投資了44億左右你如果再加上什麼職場互助啊部落互助等等的你大概花費了將近到52億這是非常多非常多的一個數字沒錯吧\n\n04:44.261 --> 04:45.883\n非營利幼稚園和準公幼在平靜的制度上有不一樣嗎?\n\n05:02.608 --> 05:06.329\n委員分兩點貧賤的部分是一樣但是您講到對他期間學期間的查核那不一樣\n\n05:31.497 --> 05:35.341\n你們都叫做評鑑但是非營利那不是叫評鑑那叫績效考評好不好你光是你光是非你光是准公幼他有退場機制他有些懲罰的機制裡面甚至可以退場非營利幼稚園你是績效考評而且你看看結果\n\n05:46.994 --> 05:49.555\n你的績效考評還有幼兒父母的滿意情形這叫滿意情形你這次績效考核不是評鑑跟其他的類別來說是不一樣的雖然你都免稱為評鑑但是你們的標準就是不一樣而且你考核的部分裡面家長滿意度滿意度是很容易設計的你覺得這樣考評的可信度有多大\n\n06:09.665 --> 06:09.925\n4月10日及11日二天一次會議\n\n06:28.503 --> 06:42.475\n公共化幼兒園比如說公幼一個月收一千塊啦非營利一個月收兩千塊准公一個月收三千塊是建置於沒有我說家長你補助給家長的補助給家長的錢有沒有一樣我現在問說我們通常是納稅錢家長給補助的錢有沒有不一樣有沒有不一樣\n\n06:47.850 --> 07:15.982\n你如果計算起來會有不一樣對啊那為什麼不一樣通常是納稅人的錢啊你說總共又還有這個肥一定每個幾乎可以領到一萬五千塊的補助那私幼只有領到五千塊啊領私幼的人的父母親就不是納稅人啊為什麼會這樣子難道你不能給家長更多的自主權嗎我同樣都是納稅勤我同樣上幼兒園你同樣給我一萬五千塊我可以選擇我要去什麼地方根據我自己的需求讓家長有自主權不行嗎次長\n\n07:39.062 --> 07:42.024\n阿就是這樣子阿然後這就是產生一個不太公平的狀況嘛我剛剛是從公平的角度來告訴你從父母的角度來告訴你我沒有選擇阿我旁邊就有一個比較可以的私有但是我卻只能到五千塊的補助阿這樣有公平嗎\n\n07:53.933 --> 08:23.522\n阿祖母公伯你要怎麼改進還有呢很多的狀況這就是目前所造成我今天完全從公平的角度來看每一件事情還有呢說實在你看我們的薪資結構當中你的公幼的確是老師的薪資比較高因為他得到政府最大補助我們都好希望全部都是變公幼但是沒有辦法所以你還需要透過非營利需要準工需要私幼來幫助你來彌補這一塊沒有辦法廣設公幼的一個目標嘛對不對所以你看這些老師的薪資不一樣\n\n08:23.962 --> 08:33.030\n所以如果有機會的話我當然希望能夠進入公幼我以幼保的教師來說然後第二個選擇就是非林立那私幼呢你可以罵他說為什麼你只給老師三萬五那問題是他遭受的薪資他每次給家長繳過來的錢你也給人家限制啊所以你讓他的整個多樣性來說說實在的你讓這些所謂的私幼裡面\n\n08:47.403 --> 08:47.583\n主席主席\n\n09:15.097 --> 09:15.597\n李慧琼教授\n\n09:40.208 --> 09:40.829\n你不能採取生理年齡嗎?\n\n10:01.987 --> 10:03.750\n有個彈性的延長的辦法\n\n10:18.220 --> 10:41.261\n跟委員報告滿生理二就可以入園這個事在最近的委員會都有同意也照這個方向現在甚至我在108年所以有沒有辦法做到嗎預算審查的二歲班才400班這次跟委員會承包958班所以一直照委員會的意見有在處理中對有沒有辦法讓他滿三歲生理年滿三歲就可以進入幼兒園有沒有機會有\n\n10:43.323 --> 11:03.980\n這是你要做出承諾否則那7個月把家長會瘋掉所以現在才會那麼多班那我最後時間有些我這樣子問一個來我們往下去看我們現職的教保人員這是他們給我寫的一個陳情信他們就很想去做這樣子的一個進修但是呢他們查看在我們南部當中唯一的就只有在清華大學\n\n11:04.921 --> 11:04.961\n市議師補充\n\n11:35.833 --> 11:37.073\n4月15日完成調查9月就可以開學了\n\n12:05.061 --> 12:27.455\n今年的九月我們就來看看這是就是南部教保人家要進修給人家一個機會這才是一個能夠讓我們幼保品質非常重要的一個機制好不好還有次造我剛所講的這些從公平的角度來去看不管是準公幼還是有關於非營利幼稚園他們的退場的機制平衡的標準要一樣最重要是給家長一個自主的空間\n\n12:28.095 --> 12:28.135\n主席\n\n12:43.331 --> 12:43.471\n李慧琼議員\n\n13:01.013 --> 13:22.560\n我們現在目前來說的話我們很多時候公共幼稚園好不好我們的公社幼稚園裡面他們基本上面如果要來做一些基礎建設的補強上面搞不好要三年以前是每年都可以只要提出來就可以現在三年搞不好都得不到這樣子的一個所謂的硬體上面的部分這該怎麼辦好我們注意一下對我們有受理的\n\n13:23.393 --> 13:23.813\n謝謝柯志恩召委\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.245,"end":9.338,"text":"謝謝召委 我們請次長跟署長有請次長 署長"},{"start":13.015,"end":39.554,"text":"好 謝謝來 次長我們想今天召委排這個題目我們當然就是要來解釋一下我們這個幼兒教保公共化的一些的成效在2016年就開始推出嘛那我想它最主要的目的就是要能夠減輕我們家長的一個經濟的一個負擔像我自己當媽的時候在那個時候我兒子現在已經30歲了我也很想讓他進入公幼但是沒有辦法基於非常多的因素那個時候呢大概公幼跟私幼的比率是大概是7比3"},{"start":40.675,"end":41.076,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":58.67,"end":67.039,"text":"基本上我們透過這樣的競變評價這方面的策略減輕年輕父母的負擔這方面我們是有努力你們一說努力也算是成效很好的樣子那你大家最主要的目的當然就是希望他能夠讓我們的父母親因為這個所謂的托兒有保障可以提高他們願意生育的比率可是你看看"},{"start":81.773,"end":105.378,"text":"希望嘛 對不對是少子化的一種方法可是你看嘛從2016年到2023你已經變成7比3了已經符合你們可能需要的你覺得這算是比較成功嗎你看我們出生數你從那時候還有8.86弄了一大堆之後到2023說實在的現在我們的出生率也變成千分之5.81完全是溜滑梯的所以你覺得這個教保公共化算成功嗎"},{"start":107.729,"end":126.464,"text":"少子女化的這個政策是中央各部會一起努力的教育部是其中比較努力的部分對嘛 所以我聽你說嘛你剛剛講說為了要讓大家提高生育率所以你們把這些的部分完全變公共化結果我告訴你實質的結果並沒有因為公共化而讓我們的出生率因此有所提高你反而因為少子女化沒有解決"},{"start":127.185,"end":127.305,"text":"主席"},{"start":150.402,"end":165.001,"text":"因為目前為止以前公幼是像我都抽不到然後現在為止我們不僅不要說是總公荒很多的公幼很多地方是有些人是抽圈抽不到有些是根本就是還有缺額你了解這個狀況吧所以說你要不要做總量管制"},{"start":168.722,"end":193.868,"text":"在人口密集的都瑞區他還是有這個需求像新北像不是啦我說你要不要總量管制你現在告訴我說你還是要繼續擴增這個總公共化的這樣一個設備我就告訴你一個雲林那個管制會在管制招生量不足的地方但對於人口密集地區我們還是有需求你有一個機制嗎像你今天還要告訴我雲林我告訴你雲林目前為止就有四間的非營利幼兒園加上一間的這個"},{"start":195.308,"end":224.082,"text":"還有再加上一間的他們所謂的托兒的這個部分你要招生289個人目前缺生率達19%那你這樣你還要再繼續擴增你的公共化幼稚園嗎?我的總量管制是指這個?各區有不同的狀況你有什麼方法來總量管制嗎?你有沒有一個科學的方法?有,我們用每個鄉鎮地區的人口數人口數然後呢?然後再看他原所的招生入學率"},{"start":224.741,"end":254.222,"text":"你要看到他的出生率有兩個方法出生率再加上你可以進小學的比率還有就是你的所有的幼兒園裡面可以遭受的人數你要三個互相做比對委員提示的是對的對否則你會造成蚊子管可是你今天的報告當中就已經看出有很多地方根本缺生數已經不斷的提高你還要不斷的擴建你就會造成很多資源的浪費啊所以你才需要一個更科學的方法來做這樣子的一個管制這是我要特別提醒的"},{"start":254.822,"end":277.989,"text":"還有呢我們今天一定要用一個公平的原則公平是一個非常重要的那我想請問嘛同樣是納稅人的錢所享用的教育資源是不一樣喔次造你知道哪個不一樣嗎舉例來說我們現在非盈利的這個部分呢大概你投資了44億左右你如果再加上什麼職場互助啊部落互助等等的你大概花費了將近到52億這是非常多非常多的一個數字沒錯吧"},{"start":284.261,"end":285.883,"text":"非營利幼稚園和準公幼在平靜的制度上有不一樣嗎?"},{"start":302.608,"end":306.329,"text":"委員分兩點 貧賤的部分是一樣但是您講到對他期間學期間的查核那不一樣"},{"start":331.497,"end":335.341,"text":"你們都叫做評鑑但是非營利那不是叫評鑑那叫績效考評好不好你光是你光是非你光是准公幼他有退場機制他有些懲罰的機制裡面甚至可以退場非營利幼稚園你是績效考評而且你看看結果"},{"start":346.994,"end":349.555,"text":"你的績效考評還有幼兒父母的滿意情形這叫滿意情形你這次績效考核不是評鑑跟其他的類別來說是不一樣的雖然你都免稱為評鑑但是你們的標準就是不一樣而且你考核的部分裡面家長滿意度滿意度是很容易設計的你覺得這樣考評的可信度有多大"},{"start":369.665,"end":369.925,"text":"4月10日及11日二天一次會議"},{"start":388.503,"end":402.475,"text":"公共化幼兒園比如說公幼一個月收一千塊啦非營利一個月收兩千塊准公一個月收三千塊是建置於沒有我說家長你補助給家長的補助給家長的錢有沒有一樣我現在問說我們通常是納稅錢家長給補助的錢有沒有不一樣有沒有不一樣"},{"start":407.85,"end":435.982,"text":"你如果計算起來會有不一樣對啊 那為什麼不一樣 通常是納稅人的錢啊你說總共又還有這個肥一定每個幾乎可以領到一萬五千塊的補助那私幼只有領到五千塊啊領私幼的人的父母親就不是納稅人啊為什麼會這樣子難道你不能給家長更多的自主權嗎我同樣都是納稅勤 我同樣上幼兒園你同樣給我一萬五千塊我可以選擇我要去什麼地方根據我自己的需求讓家長有自主權不行嗎 次長"},{"start":437.551,"end":459.002,"text":"對﹗"},{"start":459.062,"end":462.024,"text":"阿就是這樣子阿然後這就是產生一個不太公平的狀況嘛我剛剛是從公平的角度來告訴你從父母的角度來告訴你我沒有選擇阿我旁邊就有一個比較可以的私有但是我卻只能到五千塊的補助阿這樣有公平嗎"},{"start":473.933,"end":503.522,"text":"阿祖母公伯 你要怎麼改進還有呢 很多的狀況這就是目前所造成我今天完全從公平的角度來看每一件事情還有呢 說實在你看我們的薪資結構當中你的公幼的確是老師的薪資比較高因為他得到政府最大補助我們都好希望全部都是變公幼但是沒有辦法所以你還需要透過非營利需要準工需要私幼來幫助你來彌補這一塊沒有辦法廣設公幼的一個目標嘛 對不對所以你看這些老師的薪資不一樣"},{"start":503.962,"end":513.03,"text":"所以如果有機會的話我當然希望能夠進入公幼我以幼保的教師來說然後第二個選擇就是非林立那私幼呢你可以罵他說為什麼你只給老師三萬五那問題是他遭受的薪資他每次給家長繳過來的錢你也給人家限制啊所以你讓他的整個多樣性來說說實在的你讓這些所謂的私幼裡面"},{"start":527.403,"end":527.583,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":555.097,"end":555.597,"text":"李慧琼教授"},{"start":580.208,"end":580.829,"text":"你不能採取生理年齡嗎?"},{"start":601.987,"end":603.75,"text":"有個彈性的延長的辦法"},{"start":618.22,"end":641.261,"text":"跟委員報告滿生理二就可以入園這個事在最近的委員會都有同意也照這個方向現在甚至我在108年所以有沒有辦法做到嗎預算審查的二歲班才400班這次跟委員會承包958班所以一直照委員會的意見有在處理中對有沒有辦法讓他滿三歲生理年滿三歲就可以進入幼兒園有沒有機會有"},{"start":643.323,"end":663.98,"text":"這是你要做出承諾否則那7個月把家長會瘋掉所以現在才會那麼多班那我最後時間有些我這樣子問一個來我們往下去看我們現職的教保人員這是他們給我寫的一個陳情信他們就很想去做這樣子的一個進修但是呢他們查看在我們南部當中唯一的就只有在清華大學"},{"start":664.921,"end":664.961,"text":"市議師補充"},{"start":695.833,"end":697.073,"text":"4月15日完成調查9月就可以開學了"},{"start":725.061,"end":747.455,"text":"今年的九月我們就來看看這是就是南部教保人家要進修給人家一個機會這才是一個能夠讓我們幼保品質非常重要的一個機制好不好還有次造我剛所講的這些從公平的角度來去看不管是準公幼還是有關於非營利幼稚園他們的退場的機制平衡的標準要一樣最重要是給家長一個自主的空間"},{"start":748.095,"end":748.135,"text":"主席"},{"start":763.331,"end":763.471,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":781.013,"end":802.56,"text":"我們現在目前來說的話我們很多時候公共幼稚園好不好我們的公社幼稚園裡面他們基本上面如果要來做一些基礎建設的補強上面搞不好要三年以前是每年都可以只要提出來就可以現在三年搞不好都得不到這樣子的一個所謂的硬體上面的部分這該怎麼辦好我們注意一下對我們有受理的"},{"start":803.393,"end":803.813,"text":"謝謝柯志恩召委"}]}}}}