{"id":150967,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150967","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/871d5246fb87948ec311c94e340e6cb72d211db49933aca9f8ba9b0039caa7a6c51c5fd7770ca2cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:26:55 - 10:39:04","影片長度":"00:12:09","會議時間":"2024-04-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部列席就「『擴大幼兒教保公共化』成效及未來策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月10日及11日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-7"},"date":"2024-04-10","duration":729,"end_time":"2024-04-10T10:39:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-10T10:26:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":516,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時27分）主席好，有請林次長。"],["主席：有請林次長。"],["林次長明裕：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：次長早安。今天在這裡我想要再次的告訴所有人，其實剴剴案真的不能沈，所以今天在這個地方，在進入公幼或者是幼兒園的一些制度的問題之前，我們先來討論一下這個案子。次長，教育部有收到這份兒福聯盟的報告了嗎？3月29號。"],["林次長明裕：收到了，是。"],["郭委員昱晴：3月29號你們就收到了，你們可以告訴我看完之後，你們心裡做何感想？"],["林次長明裕：在剴剴案發生之後，我們對於財團法人法授權教育部實施所有的監督工作、監管工作，我們就即刻要求他做相關的改善，希望他在兩個禮拜內提出改善報告。"],["郭委員昱晴：這些改善有寫在這裡嗎？是寫在這裡，對不對？"],["林次長明裕：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：就是這份報告嘛？"],["林次長明裕：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，沒關係，我們一一來看一下這份報告，我看完之後跟次長一起來分享我看完之後的心情。我們先來看一下報告的第2頁，前面他先強調了一下這三年當中他們做了哪些事情或者是沒做哪些事情，但後面我們把這個格子拉大了，他說最後本會決定在2024年的經費預算上，已經會呈現所謂的赤字，他已經在預告他今年的赤字將會短缺九千七百多萬，而且本會有將捐款進行合理而且有效運用的決心跟具體的行動。在剴剴案之後他還寫到這個部分，次長你的想法是？"],["林次長明裕：這一份報告的檢核，我們會透過法律、教育、會計方面的專家來做會審。"],["郭委員昱晴：他前面有特別提到2023年他們的服務達三千位兒少，翻轉了孩子的生活處境，2023年翻轉了孩子們的生活處境，包括12月24號死亡的剴剴嗎？會不會覺得這個報告格外的諷刺？"],["林次長明裕：我也覺得他對剴剴案這方面應該要多加深入檢討。"],["郭委員昱晴：還有五年前的珮珮案，其實已經有兩起造成孩童死亡的案件了。"],["林次長明裕：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們再來看一下第9頁，他的報告上第9頁寫到：本會長期都嚴謹的將善款用於服務上，也感謝各界的指教，未來更致力於把每一份捐款都用在強化社工人員的工作環境、提升個案的服務品質。念到這裡，對比剛剛講的，他今年已經預告短缺九千七百多萬，他將會致力有決心的再繼續，相對的來講，就是他想要再繼續募款的意思，是這個意思。請問剴剴案在哪裡？剴剴案隻字未提，在這份報告裡頭隻字未提，我看的是非常憤怒啦！","我們再來往下看，看第10頁，他們說他們的內控制度是出現了一些問題，這的確他們有寫到，一個財團法人、一個兒福聯盟有龐大資產，有45億資產的財團法人，從去年年底到今年3月爆發剴剴案之後，他才跟我們說他的內控的確有問題，次長，身為主管機關的教育部有沒有覺得這個兒福聯盟有問題？"],["林次長明裕：我從這個書面報告還沒有看到他檢討的決心跟未來努力的方向。"],["郭委員昱晴：這一點我也認同。"],["林次長明裕：雖然他寫的面面俱到，但是對於剴剴案沒有痛徹心扉去改正，這我很遺憾。"],["郭委員昱晴：再從第11頁，他說他購置不動產，其實他早在2019年即在內湖購置3.7億的不動產，其實那時候教育部就已經有提及，因為是在你們的官網裡面，其實我們找得到這個新聞資料，其實那時教育部就已經提及要針對這件事情來做審查，要來做一些調查，這個部分其實一直到現在、一直到剴剴案發生之後，2024年的2月，它在臺中用現金買了9,800萬的地，然後現在跟我們說，2024年（今年）他們短缺九千七百多萬。"],["林次長明裕：等同它把現金拿去買房子，當作辦公室所用……"],["郭委員昱晴：我們不知道它怎麼說的。"],["林次長明裕：等於它的現金流有缺損，所以我們要再檢視一下它這個的合理性。"],["郭委員昱晴：再來，上次其實我有提到他們監察人的制度，到後來，當然其實教育部針對兒福聯盟的規章是得設所謂的監察人，所以從幾年前他們就沒有監察人的制度，也就是相對來講，它的內部控管是絕對出現問題。到現在，他們的確也提了，將來會積極尋求所謂的內控專業的一些人員跟監察人員，但是他們講到的居然是用志工的方式，所謂的志工，我不知道我的認知跟次長的認知是不是一樣，志工是不支薪的，所以將來如果監察人出現問題，他不支薪、他沒有領這邊的薪水，所以其實他就沒有責任，我可以這樣解釋嗎？"],["林次長明裕：在法規上面沒有強制它設置監察人，但既然設置了監察人，就要負監察制度的責任。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，所以我們再回歸到財團法人法，教育部是它的主管機關，我不知道他們的董事，甚至於他們的林姓董事長在3月27號開了一個不給媒體記者問問題的記者會，到現在為止，到底身為主管機關的教育部，根據財團法人法，其實它已經違反捐助章程所設立的一個目的，以及它違反財團法人法第二十九條所規定的，法規當中有關強制或者是禁止規定或者是應為一定行為而不為者，它其實已經違反了這幾項。接下來教育部針對它的這一份令人覺得完全在講空話的檢討報告，這個叫檢討報告，教育部會做出什麼樣的懲處？"],["林次長明裕：我們經過專家會審，在強力嚴格的監管之後，如果這個書面報告有虛偽作假或者是誇大其辭，我們會不排除勒令請它重寫。"],["郭委員昱晴：重寫而已？"],["林次長明裕：重寫並予以糾正。"],["郭委員昱晴：除了重寫以外，你對兒福聯盟……"],["林次長明裕：要予以糾正。"],["郭委員昱晴：包含他們的董事有沒有利益迴避、有沒有辭職，還有它的董事長是不是應該要下臺、是不是要下臺為剴剴案來負責？有沒有辦法做到這一點？這是我們教育部的職責，也是我們的權力，針對不合格的兒福聯盟，這麼大的一個缺失，是不是可以做到這一點？要如何做出懲處？"],["林次長明裕：對於董事會監理不周，由董事長、他們來負起責任；對於它財務相關的運用，由本部來加以監管；對於它業務推展的疏漏，由它的目的事業機關衛福部來做檢視。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，這份報告是他們在3月29號提出來的，接著下來我們要看到教育部針對這份報告，你們也要寫一份報告，是不是也同樣的可以提供給本會的委員們？"],["林次長明裕：我們專家會審什麼時候開始？"],["顏副司長寶月：跟委員報告，這份報告部分，我們邀請專家學者之後，我們會在提出相關的一些行政措施作為之後，會有一個書面報告呈報……"],["郭委員昱晴：除了專家學者以外，能不能夠也聽一聽剴剴家屬們的說法？"],["林次長明裕：在針對個案的出收養相關的責任部分，我們希望衛福部也應該要加入。"],["郭委員昱晴：你們跨部會來做一份回應他們這份報告的回應書給我們，可以嗎？"],["林次長明裕：我們也請衛福部加入。"],["郭委員昱晴：可以跨部會來做這件事情嗎？"],["林次長明裕：對，但業務的推展跟推動，衛福部是……"],["郭委員昱晴：我懂，我知道、我知道，因為衛福部也是他們重要的主管機關，但我是針對我們財團法人法的教育部，我是第一個在這裡提出質詢的委員。"],["林次長明裕：謝謝委員提示我們。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝。還有一點點時間，我們先來看一下準公共化幼兒園針對重大情節問題限縮它的期間跟範圍的原因，針對所謂的教保以及幼兒照顧法之前，我們不續約或者是不得申請的條件，從一些比較具體的，比方說有身心虐待、體罰、霸凌、性騷擾、不當管教、其他身心暴力或不當對待，請主管機關處以罰鍰，這是之前我們的規定，對不對？後來準公共第三期程不得續約的條件，我們看到其實只包含行為人為負責人以及園長，如果是該班的老師，在權責的部分是不是會有所謂脫責或迴避，將來這樣子的狀況我們要如何認定？為什麼到後來修成變成是條件放寬了？之前具體的那些，對我來講，任何一項包含性騷擾都叫做不當的教育、不當的處理，這個部分我們的條件、我們的標準在哪裡？"],["林次長明裕：那個標準我們有一些加嚴、加速退場的機制，所以委員所看到這個是當時的一個草案，但是相關的修正，誠如委員所說的，我們要加強管控的部分是不可以鬆手的。"],["郭委員昱晴：絕對不能鬆手。"],["林次長明裕：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為這個部分，我們還是要以孩子、兒童的權益跟教學品質為主才對，而不是我們其實辦公室昨天……"],["林次長明裕：我們新契約會加強要求，大概會增加10條的約束。"],["郭委員昱晴：而不是在乎說因為有了前項，所以可能會導致關園的數量，這個絕對不會是答案喔！因為我們本來得到國教署的答案居然是這樣，讓我們也覺得很詫異，怎麼會這樣？我們不是應該是針對兒童，他們自己本身的受教權跟他們的安全、跟他們的福利與權益為主嗎？怎麼會因為有了前項這樣子會導致關園的速度、關園的數量太多，這不對喔！"],["林次長明裕：是，我們以提升教保品質為先啦！至於退場的元素就不在我們考慮之內。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，不管怎麼樣，其實我們都要以兒童的權益為宗旨，這個部分我希望教育部與我們大家一起來努力，好嗎？"],["林次長明裕：好。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝。"],["林次長明裕：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員，林次長請回。","我們再宣告一次，因為剛剛我有宣告在陳秀寳委員質詢後休息5分鐘，但因為陳秀寳委員跟陳培瑜委員調換時間，所以變在陳培瑜委員質詢後休息5分鐘。","請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":320,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","范雲","李坤城","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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\"start\": 724.276, \"end\": 724.577, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 724.577, \"end\": 724.717, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 724.717, \"end\": 724.897, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 724.897, \"end\": 724.997, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 724.997, \"end\": 725.297, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 725.297, \"end\": 725.477, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 725.477, \"end\": 725.657, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 725.657, \"end\": 726.457, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 726.457, \"end\": 726.477, \"score\": 0.173}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,069 --> 00:00:06,672\n主席好有請次長好有請您次長委員好次長早安今天其實在這裡我想要再次的再次的告訴所有人其實凱凱案真的不能成所以今天在這個地方其實在進入我們的這個公幼或者是幼兒園的一些制度的問題之前其實我們先來討論一下這個案子次長\n\n2\n00:00:32,779 --> 00:00:44,135\n教育部有收到這份兒福聯盟的報告了嗎?3月29日你們就收到了。你們可以告訴我看完之後你們心裡做何感想?\n\n3\n00:00:47,676 --> 00:01:02,481\n在凱凱案發生之後我們對於財團法人、法授權、教育部實施所有監管工作我們就即刻要求他做相關的改善希望他兩個禮拜內提出這個改善\n\n4\n00:01:04,782 --> 00:01:05,063\n報告的第二頁\n\n5\n00:01:23,826 --> 00:01:42,268\n前面他先強調了一下這三年當中他們做了哪些事情或者是沒做哪些事情但後面我們把這個格子拉大了他說最後本會決定在2024年的經費預算上已經會呈現所謂的赤字他已經在預告他今年他的\n\n6\n00:01:43,169 --> 00:02:01,102\n次字將會短缺九千七百多萬．而且本會將有進行捐款．合理而且有效運用的決心．跟具體的行動在凱開案之後．他還寫到這個部分社長你的想法是\n\n7\n00:02:04,394 --> 00:02:29,866\n這份報告的檢視檢核我們會透過法律教育財會計方面的專家來做會審他前面有特別提到在2023年他們的服務達3000位兒少翻轉了孩子的生活處境2023年翻轉了孩子們的生活處境包括12月24日死亡的凱凱嗎?\n\n8\n00:02:32,557 --> 00:02:32,577\n第9頁\n\n9\n00:02:50,441 --> 00:03:05,060\n他的報告上第9頁．本會長期會嚴謹將善款用於服務上．也感謝各界的指教．未來更致力把每一份捐款．都用在強化社工人員的工作環境．提升個案的服務品質．\n\n10\n00:03:06,701 --> 00:03:07,221\n好,我們再來往下看,看第10頁\n\n11\n00:03:36,325 --> 00:03:40,531\n他們說他們的內控的制度是出現了一些問題這的確他們有寫到\n\n12\n00:03:43,735 --> 00:04:08,226\n一個財團法人．一個兒福聯盟．有龐大資產．45億資產的財團法人．到今年．到去年年底．到3月．到今年的3月．凱凱案出現爆發之後．他才跟我們說．他的內控的確有問題．社長身為主管機關的教育部．覺得這個兒福聯盟有沒有問題?\n\n13\n00:04:10,419 --> 00:04:26,053\n我從這個書面報告還沒有看到他檢討的決心跟未來努力這個方向雖然他寫的這個面面俱到但是對於凱萊案沒有痛下心扉的去改正我真的很遺憾\n\n14\n00:04:27,031 --> 00:04:53,696\n在從第4頁第11頁他說他購置不動產其實他早在2019年在內湖購置3.7億的不動產那時候其實教育部就已經有提及因為是在你們的官網裡面其實我們找得到這個新聞資料那個時候其實教育部就已經提及要針對這個事情來做審查然後要來做一些調查這個部分其實一直到現在\n\n15\n00:04:54,716 --> 00:05:09,968\n一直到凱凱案發生之後2024年的2月他在台中用現金現金買了9800萬的地然後現在跟我說2024年他們今年他們短缺9700多萬\n\n16\n00:05:14,690 --> 00:05:34,864\n本同他把現金拿去買房子當作辦公室所用所以他說現金有缺損所以這個我們要再檢視一下他這個合理性再來上次其實我有提到他們監察人的制度到後來當然其實教育部針對兒福聯盟他們的規章是得涉所謂的監察人所以他們從\n\n17\n00:05:36,605 --> 00:06:01,679\n幾年前他們就沒有監察人的制度也就是相對來講他的內部控管是絕對出現問題到現在他們的確也提了將來會積極尋求所謂的內控專業的一些人員跟監察人員好但是呢他們講到的居然是用志工的方式所謂的志工我不知道我的認知跟次長的認知是不是一樣志工是不知心的\n\n18\n00:06:03,635 --> 00:06:05,196\n監察人在法規上面沒有強制他設置但既然設置了監察人就要負監察制度的這個責任是,好\n\n19\n00:06:21,565 --> 00:06:33,272\n所以我們在回歸到我們教育部是它的主管機關財團法人法我不知道他們的董事甚至於他們在3月27號開了一個不給媒體記者問問題的\n\n20\n00:06:37,654 --> 00:06:38,014\n．4月10日及11日\n\n21\n00:06:53,484 --> 00:07:15,875\n財團法人法第29條所規定的法規當中有強制或者是禁止規定或者是因為因為一定行為而不為者他其實已經違反了這幾項了那接下來教育部我們針對他的這一份這一份令人覺得完全在講空話的一份報告檢討報告這個叫檢討報告教育部你們會做出什麼樣的懲處\n\n22\n00:07:21,981 --> 00:07:25,763\n我們經過專家會審﹐強力的嚴格的監管之後﹐如果這個書面報告有虛偽作假﹐或者是誇大歧視﹐我們會不排除勒令請他重寫重寫而已除了重寫以外﹐你對兒福聯盟﹐包含他們的董事﹐有沒有利益迴避﹐有沒有辭職﹐還有他的董事長是不是應該要下台﹐是不是要下台為凱凱案來負責﹐\n\n23\n00:07:52,236 --> 00:07:56,203\n有沒有辦法做到這一點這是我們教育部的職責也是我們的權利針對不合格的兒福聯盟這麼大的一個缺失是不是可以做到這一點\n\n24\n00:08:05,669 --> 00:08:27,955\n要如何作出懲處?對於董事會監理不周由董事長他們來負起責任那對於他的財務的相關的運用由本部來加以監管對於他的業務的推展的疏漏由他的目的事業主管機關衛務部來做檢視\n\n25\n00:08:30,476 --> 00:08:45,063\n這份報告是他們3月29日提出來的對那接著下來我們要看到教育部針對這份報告你們也要寫一份報告是不是也同樣的可以提供給本會的委員們我們專協會什麼時候開始\n\n26\n00:08:48,251 --> 00:08:49,192\n除了專家學者以外能不能夠也聽一聽凱凱的家屬們他們的說法\n\n27\n00:09:07,096 --> 00:09:21,848\n如果針對各案的出租養義務相關的責任的部分我們希望衛務部也應該加入我們跨部會來做一份回應他們這份報告的回應訊給我們可以嗎可以跨部會來做這件事情嗎但業務的推展跟推動\n\n28\n00:09:27,912 --> 00:09:28,632\n教育部列席\n\n29\n00:09:55,683 --> 00:10:08,226\n不續約或不得申請的條件．從一些比較具體的．比方說有身心虐待．體罰．霸凌．性騷擾．不當管教．以及其他的身心暴力．或不當對待．請主管機關處以罰還這個是之前我們的規定對不對\n\n30\n00:10:14,168 --> 00:10:30,155\n後來准公共的第三期不得續約的條件我們看到了其實只包含行為人的負責人以及員長那如果是該班的老師在全責的部分是不是會有所謂他為了要脫責或迴避那將來這樣子的一個狀況我們要如何認定為什麼到後來修成變成是條件放寬了之前的具體的那些對我來講任何一項包含性騷擾這個都叫做不當\n\n31\n00:10:43,820 --> 00:10:48,864\n不當的一個教育不當的處理那這個部分我們的條件我們的標準在哪裡那個標準我們有一些加嚴加速退場的一個機制所以委員所看到這個是一個當時的一個草案那但是相關的修正我們委員所說要加強管控是不可以鬆手的\n\n32\n00:11:08,661 --> 00:11:08,701\n主席\n\n33\n00:11:28,900 --> 00:11:55,813\n這個絕對不會是答案喔因為我們得到的本來是國教署的這邊的答案居然是這樣讓我們覺得也很詫異怎麼會這樣我們不是應該是針對兒童他們自己本身的受教權跟他們的安全跟他們的福利跟權益為主怎麼會因為我有了錢像這樣子我會導致官員的速度官員的數量太多這不對喔我們提升教保品質為先啦至於退場的元素就不在我們考慮之內\n\n34\n00:11:56,733 --> 00:12:06,477\n好那不管怎麼樣其實我們都要以兒童的權益為宗旨這個部分我希望教育部我們大家一起來努力好嗎好謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3069\t6672\t主席好有請次長好有請您次長委員好次長早安今天其實在這裡我想要再次的再次的告訴所有人其實凱凱案真的不能成所以今天在這個地方其實在進入我們的這個公幼或者是幼兒園的一些制度的問題之前其實我們先來討論一下這個案子次長\n32779\t44135\t教育部有收到這份兒福聯盟的報告了嗎?3月29日你們就收到了。你們可以告訴我看完之後你們心裡做何感想?\n47676\t62481\t在凱凱案發生之後我們對於財團法人、法授權、教育部實施所有監管工作我們就即刻要求他做相關的改善希望他兩個禮拜內提出這個改善\n64782\t65063\t報告的第二頁\n83826\t102268\t前面他先強調了一下這三年當中他們做了哪些事情或者是沒做哪些事情但後面我們把這個格子拉大了他說最後本會決定在2024年的經費預算上已經會呈現所謂的赤字他已經在預告他今年他的\n103169\t121102\t次字將會短缺九千七百多萬．而且本會將有進行捐款．合理而且有效運用的決心．跟具體的行動在凱開案之後．他還寫到這個部分社長你的想法是\n124394\t149866\t這份報告的檢視檢核我們會透過法律教育財會計方面的專家來做會審他前面有特別提到在2023年他們的服務達3000位兒少翻轉了孩子的生活處境2023年翻轉了孩子們的生活處境包括12月24日死亡的凱凱嗎?\n152557\t152577\t第9頁\n170441\t185060\t他的報告上第9頁．本會長期會嚴謹將善款用於服務上．也感謝各界的指教．未來更致力把每一份捐款．都用在強化社工人員的工作環境．提升個案的服務品質．\n186701\t187221\t好,我們再來往下看,看第10頁\n216325\t220531\t他們說他們的內控的制度是出現了一些問題這的確他們有寫到\n223735\t248226\t一個財團法人．一個兒福聯盟．有龐大資產．45億資產的財團法人．到今年．到去年年底．到3月．到今年的3月．凱凱案出現爆發之後．他才跟我們說．他的內控的確有問題．社長身為主管機關的教育部．覺得這個兒福聯盟有沒有問題?\n250419\t266053\t我從這個書面報告還沒有看到他檢討的決心跟未來努力這個方向雖然他寫的這個面面俱到但是對於凱萊案沒有痛下心扉的去改正我真的很遺憾\n267031\t293696\t在從第4頁第11頁他說他購置不動產其實他早在2019年在內湖購置3.7億的不動產那時候其實教育部就已經有提及因為是在你們的官網裡面其實我們找得到這個新聞資料那個時候其實教育部就已經提及要針對這個事情來做審查然後要來做一些調查這個部分其實一直到現在\n294716\t309968\t一直到凱凱案發生之後2024年的2月他在台中用現金現金買了9800萬的地然後現在跟我說2024年他們今年他們短缺9700多萬\n314690\t334864\t本同他把現金拿去買房子當作辦公室所用所以他說現金有缺損所以這個我們要再檢視一下他這個合理性再來上次其實我有提到他們監察人的制度到後來當然其實教育部針對兒福聯盟他們的規章是得涉所謂的監察人所以他們從\n336605\t361679\t幾年前他們就沒有監察人的制度也就是相對來講他的內部控管是絕對出現問題到現在他們的確也提了將來會積極尋求所謂的內控專業的一些人員跟監察人員好但是呢他們講到的居然是用志工的方式所謂的志工我不知道我的認知跟次長的認知是不是一樣志工是不知心的\n363635\t365196\t監察人在法規上面沒有強制他設置但既然設置了監察人就要負監察制度的這個責任是,好\n381565\t393272\t所以我們在回歸到我們教育部是它的主管機關財團法人法我不知道他們的董事甚至於他們在3月27號開了一個不給媒體記者問問題的\n397654\t398014\t．4月10日及11日\n413484\t435875\t財團法人法第29條所規定的法規當中有強制或者是禁止規定或者是因為因為一定行為而不為者他其實已經違反了這幾項了那接下來教育部我們針對他的這一份這一份令人覺得完全在講空話的一份報告檢討報告這個叫檢討報告教育部你們會做出什麼樣的懲處\n441981\t445763\t我們經過專家會審﹐強力的嚴格的監管之後﹐如果這個書面報告有虛偽作假﹐或者是誇大歧視﹐我們會不排除勒令請他重寫重寫而已除了重寫以外﹐你對兒福聯盟﹐包含他們的董事﹐有沒有利益迴避﹐有沒有辭職﹐還有他的董事長是不是應該要下台﹐是不是要下台為凱凱案來負責﹐\n472236\t476203\t有沒有辦法做到這一點這是我們教育部的職責也是我們的權利針對不合格的兒福聯盟這麼大的一個缺失是不是可以做到這一點\n485669\t507955\t要如何作出懲處?對於董事會監理不周由董事長他們來負起責任那對於他的財務的相關的運用由本部來加以監管對於他的業務的推展的疏漏由他的目的事業主管機關衛務部來做檢視\n510476\t525063\t這份報告是他們3月29日提出來的對那接著下來我們要看到教育部針對這份報告你們也要寫一份報告是不是也同樣的可以提供給本會的委員們我們專協會什麼時候開始\n528251\t529192\t除了專家學者以外能不能夠也聽一聽凱凱的家屬們他們的說法\n547096\t561848\t如果針對各案的出租養義務相關的責任的部分我們希望衛務部也應該加入我們跨部會來做一份回應他們這份報告的回應訊給我們可以嗎可以跨部會來做這件事情嗎但業務的推展跟推動\n567912\t568632\t教育部列席\n595683\t608226\t不續約或不得申請的條件．從一些比較具體的．比方說有身心虐待．體罰．霸凌．性騷擾．不當管教．以及其他的身心暴力．或不當對待．請主管機關處以罰還這個是之前我們的規定 對不對\n614168\t630155\t後來准公共的第三期不得續約的條件我們看到了其實只包含行為人的負責人以及員長那如果是該班的老師在全責的部分是不是會有所謂他為了要脫責或迴避那將來這樣子的一個狀況我們要如何認定為什麼到後來修成變成是條件放寬了之前的具體的那些對我來講任何一項包含性騷擾這個都叫做不當\n643820\t648864\t不當的一個教育不當的處理那這個部分我們的條件我們的標準在哪裡那個標準我們有一些加嚴加速退場的一個機制所以委員所看到這個是一個當時的一個草案那但是相關的修正我們委員所說要加強管控是不可以鬆手的\n668661\t668701\t主席\n688900\t715813\t這個絕對不會是答案喔因為我們得到的本來是國教署的這邊的答案居然是這樣讓我們覺得也很詫異怎麼會這樣我們不是應該是針對兒童他們自己本身的受教權跟他們的安全跟他們的福利跟權益為主怎麼會因為我有了錢像這樣子我會導致官員的速度官員的數量太多這不對喔我們提升教保品質為先啦至於退場的元素就不在我們考慮之內\n716733\t726477\t好 那不管怎麼樣其實我們都要以兒童的權益為宗旨這個部分我希望教育部我們大家一起來努力好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝\n","txt":"主席好有請次長好有請您次長委員好次長早安今天其實在這裡我想要再次的再次的告訴所有人其實凱凱案真的不能成所以今天在這個地方其實在進入我們的這個公幼或者是幼兒園的一些制度的問題之前其實我們先來討論一下這個案子次長\n教育部有收到這份兒福聯盟的報告了嗎?3月29日你們就收到了。你們可以告訴我看完之後你們心裡做何感想?\n在凱凱案發生之後我們對於財團法人、法授權、教育部實施所有監管工作我們就即刻要求他做相關的改善希望他兩個禮拜內提出這個改善\n報告的第二頁\n前面他先強調了一下這三年當中他們做了哪些事情或者是沒做哪些事情但後面我們把這個格子拉大了他說最後本會決定在2024年的經費預算上已經會呈現所謂的赤字他已經在預告他今年他的\n次字將會短缺九千七百多萬．而且本會將有進行捐款．合理而且有效運用的決心．跟具體的行動在凱開案之後．他還寫到這個部分社長你的想法是\n這份報告的檢視檢核我們會透過法律教育財會計方面的專家來做會審他前面有特別提到在2023年他們的服務達3000位兒少翻轉了孩子的生活處境2023年翻轉了孩子們的生活處境包括12月24日死亡的凱凱嗎?\n第9頁\n他的報告上第9頁．本會長期會嚴謹將善款用於服務上．也感謝各界的指教．未來更致力把每一份捐款．都用在強化社工人員的工作環境．提升個案的服務品質．\n好,我們再來往下看,看第10頁\n他們說他們的內控的制度是出現了一些問題這的確他們有寫到\n一個財團法人．一個兒福聯盟．有龐大資產．45億資產的財團法人．到今年．到去年年底．到3月．到今年的3月．凱凱案出現爆發之後．他才跟我們說．他的內控的確有問題．社長身為主管機關的教育部．覺得這個兒福聯盟有沒有問題?\n我從這個書面報告還沒有看到他檢討的決心跟未來努力這個方向雖然他寫的這個面面俱到但是對於凱萊案沒有痛下心扉的去改正我真的很遺憾\n在從第4頁第11頁他說他購置不動產其實他早在2019年在內湖購置3.7億的不動產那時候其實教育部就已經有提及因為是在你們的官網裡面其實我們找得到這個新聞資料那個時候其實教育部就已經提及要針對這個事情來做審查然後要來做一些調查這個部分其實一直到現在\n一直到凱凱案發生之後2024年的2月他在台中用現金現金買了9800萬的地然後現在跟我說2024年他們今年他們短缺9700多萬\n本同他把現金拿去買房子當作辦公室所用所以他說現金有缺損所以這個我們要再檢視一下他這個合理性再來上次其實我有提到他們監察人的制度到後來當然其實教育部針對兒福聯盟他們的規章是得涉所謂的監察人所以他們從\n幾年前他們就沒有監察人的制度也就是相對來講他的內部控管是絕對出現問題到現在他們的確也提了將來會積極尋求所謂的內控專業的一些人員跟監察人員好但是呢他們講到的居然是用志工的方式所謂的志工我不知道我的認知跟次長的認知是不是一樣志工是不知心的\n監察人在法規上面沒有強制他設置但既然設置了監察人就要負監察制度的這個責任是,好\n所以我們在回歸到我們教育部是它的主管機關財團法人法我不知道他們的董事甚至於他們在3月27號開了一個不給媒體記者問問題的\n．4月10日及11日\n財團法人法第29條所規定的法規當中有強制或者是禁止規定或者是因為因為一定行為而不為者他其實已經違反了這幾項了那接下來教育部我們針對他的這一份這一份令人覺得完全在講空話的一份報告檢討報告這個叫檢討報告教育部你們會做出什麼樣的懲處\n我們經過專家會審﹐強力的嚴格的監管之後﹐如果這個書面報告有虛偽作假﹐或者是誇大歧視﹐我們會不排除勒令請他重寫重寫而已除了重寫以外﹐你對兒福聯盟﹐包含他們的董事﹐有沒有利益迴避﹐有沒有辭職﹐還有他的董事長是不是應該要下台﹐是不是要下台為凱凱案來負責﹐\n有沒有辦法做到這一點這是我們教育部的職責也是我們的權利針對不合格的兒福聯盟這麼大的一個缺失是不是可以做到這一點\n要如何作出懲處?對於董事會監理不周由董事長他們來負起責任那對於他的財務的相關的運用由本部來加以監管對於他的業務的推展的疏漏由他的目的事業主管機關衛務部來做檢視\n這份報告是他們3月29日提出來的對那接著下來我們要看到教育部針對這份報告你們也要寫一份報告是不是也同樣的可以提供給本會的委員們我們專協會什麼時候開始\n除了專家學者以外能不能夠也聽一聽凱凱的家屬們他們的說法\n如果針對各案的出租養義務相關的責任的部分我們希望衛務部也應該加入我們跨部會來做一份回應他們這份報告的回應訊給我們可以嗎可以跨部會來做這件事情嗎但業務的推展跟推動\n教育部列席\n不續約或不得申請的條件．從一些比較具體的．比方說有身心虐待．體罰．霸凌．性騷擾．不當管教．以及其他的身心暴力．或不當對待．請主管機關處以罰還這個是之前我們的規定 對不對\n後來准公共的第三期不得續約的條件我們看到了其實只包含行為人的負責人以及員長那如果是該班的老師在全責的部分是不是會有所謂他為了要脫責或迴避那將來這樣子的一個狀況我們要如何認定為什麼到後來修成變成是條件放寬了之前的具體的那些對我來講任何一項包含性騷擾這個都叫做不當\n不當的一個教育不當的處理那這個部分我們的條件我們的標準在哪裡那個標準我們有一些加嚴加速退場的一個機制所以委員所看到這個是一個當時的一個草案那但是相關的修正我們委員所說要加強管控是不可以鬆手的\n主席\n這個絕對不會是答案喔因為我們得到的本來是國教署的這邊的答案居然是這樣讓我們覺得也很詫異怎麼會這樣我們不是應該是針對兒童他們自己本身的受教權跟他們的安全跟他們的福利跟權益為主怎麼會因為我有了錢像這樣子我會導致官員的速度官員的數量太多這不對喔我們提升教保品質為先啦至於退場的元素就不在我們考慮之內\n好 那不管怎麼樣其實我們都要以兒童的權益為宗旨這個部分我希望教育部我們大家一起來努力好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.069 --> 00:06.672\n主席好有請次長好有請您次長委員好次長早安今天其實在這裡我想要再次的再次的告訴所有人其實凱凱案真的不能成所以今天在這個地方其實在進入我們的這個公幼或者是幼兒園的一些制度的問題之前其實我們先來討論一下這個案子次長\n\n00:32.779 --> 00:44.135\n教育部有收到這份兒福聯盟的報告了嗎?3月29日你們就收到了。你們可以告訴我看完之後你們心裡做何感想?\n\n00:47.676 --> 01:02.481\n在凱凱案發生之後我們對於財團法人、法授權、教育部實施所有監管工作我們就即刻要求他做相關的改善希望他兩個禮拜內提出這個改善\n\n01:04.782 --> 01:05.063\n報告的第二頁\n\n01:23.826 --> 01:42.268\n前面他先強調了一下這三年當中他們做了哪些事情或者是沒做哪些事情但後面我們把這個格子拉大了他說最後本會決定在2024年的經費預算上已經會呈現所謂的赤字他已經在預告他今年他的\n\n01:43.169 --> 02:01.102\n次字將會短缺九千七百多萬．而且本會將有進行捐款．合理而且有效運用的決心．跟具體的行動在凱開案之後．他還寫到這個部分社長你的想法是\n\n02:04.394 --> 02:29.866\n這份報告的檢視檢核我們會透過法律教育財會計方面的專家來做會審他前面有特別提到在2023年他們的服務達3000位兒少翻轉了孩子的生活處境2023年翻轉了孩子們的生活處境包括12月24日死亡的凱凱嗎?\n\n02:32.557 --> 02:32.577\n第9頁\n\n02:50.441 --> 03:05.060\n他的報告上第9頁．本會長期會嚴謹將善款用於服務上．也感謝各界的指教．未來更致力把每一份捐款．都用在強化社工人員的工作環境．提升個案的服務品質．\n\n03:06.701 --> 03:07.221\n好,我們再來往下看,看第10頁\n\n03:36.325 --> 03:40.531\n他們說他們的內控的制度是出現了一些問題這的確他們有寫到\n\n03:43.735 --> 04:08.226\n一個財團法人．一個兒福聯盟．有龐大資產．45億資產的財團法人．到今年．到去年年底．到3月．到今年的3月．凱凱案出現爆發之後．他才跟我們說．他的內控的確有問題．社長身為主管機關的教育部．覺得這個兒福聯盟有沒有問題?\n\n04:10.419 --> 04:26.053\n我從這個書面報告還沒有看到他檢討的決心跟未來努力這個方向雖然他寫的這個面面俱到但是對於凱萊案沒有痛下心扉的去改正我真的很遺憾\n\n04:27.031 --> 04:53.696\n在從第4頁第11頁他說他購置不動產其實他早在2019年在內湖購置3.7億的不動產那時候其實教育部就已經有提及因為是在你們的官網裡面其實我們找得到這個新聞資料那個時候其實教育部就已經提及要針對這個事情來做審查然後要來做一些調查這個部分其實一直到現在\n\n04:54.716 --> 05:09.968\n一直到凱凱案發生之後2024年的2月他在台中用現金現金買了9800萬的地然後現在跟我說2024年他們今年他們短缺9700多萬\n\n05:14.690 --> 05:34.864\n本同他把現金拿去買房子當作辦公室所用所以他說現金有缺損所以這個我們要再檢視一下他這個合理性再來上次其實我有提到他們監察人的制度到後來當然其實教育部針對兒福聯盟他們的規章是得涉所謂的監察人所以他們從\n\n05:36.605 --> 06:01.679\n幾年前他們就沒有監察人的制度也就是相對來講他的內部控管是絕對出現問題到現在他們的確也提了將來會積極尋求所謂的內控專業的一些人員跟監察人員好但是呢他們講到的居然是用志工的方式所謂的志工我不知道我的認知跟次長的認知是不是一樣志工是不知心的\n\n06:03.635 --> 06:05.196\n監察人在法規上面沒有強制他設置但既然設置了監察人就要負監察制度的這個責任是,好\n\n06:21.565 --> 06:33.272\n所以我們在回歸到我們教育部是它的主管機關財團法人法我不知道他們的董事甚至於他們在3月27號開了一個不給媒體記者問問題的\n\n06:37.654 --> 06:38.014\n．4月10日及11日\n\n06:53.484 --> 07:15.875\n財團法人法第29條所規定的法規當中有強制或者是禁止規定或者是因為因為一定行為而不為者他其實已經違反了這幾項了那接下來教育部我們針對他的這一份這一份令人覺得完全在講空話的一份報告檢討報告這個叫檢討報告教育部你們會做出什麼樣的懲處\n\n07:21.981 --> 07:25.763\n我們經過專家會審﹐強力的嚴格的監管之後﹐如果這個書面報告有虛偽作假﹐或者是誇大歧視﹐我們會不排除勒令請他重寫重寫而已除了重寫以外﹐你對兒福聯盟﹐包含他們的董事﹐有沒有利益迴避﹐有沒有辭職﹐還有他的董事長是不是應該要下台﹐是不是要下台為凱凱案來負責﹐\n\n07:52.236 --> 07:56.203\n有沒有辦法做到這一點這是我們教育部的職責也是我們的權利針對不合格的兒福聯盟這麼大的一個缺失是不是可以做到這一點\n\n08:05.669 --> 08:27.955\n要如何作出懲處?對於董事會監理不周由董事長他們來負起責任那對於他的財務的相關的運用由本部來加以監管對於他的業務的推展的疏漏由他的目的事業主管機關衛務部來做檢視\n\n08:30.476 --> 08:45.063\n這份報告是他們3月29日提出來的對那接著下來我們要看到教育部針對這份報告你們也要寫一份報告是不是也同樣的可以提供給本會的委員們我們專協會什麼時候開始\n\n08:48.251 --> 08:49.192\n除了專家學者以外能不能夠也聽一聽凱凱的家屬們他們的說法\n\n09:07.096 --> 09:21.848\n如果針對各案的出租養義務相關的責任的部分我們希望衛務部也應該加入我們跨部會來做一份回應他們這份報告的回應訊給我們可以嗎可以跨部會來做這件事情嗎但業務的推展跟推動\n\n09:27.912 --> 09:28.632\n教育部列席\n\n09:55.683 --> 10:08.226\n不續約或不得申請的條件．從一些比較具體的．比方說有身心虐待．體罰．霸凌．性騷擾．不當管教．以及其他的身心暴力．或不當對待．請主管機關處以罰還這個是之前我們的規定對不對\n\n10:14.168 --> 10:30.155\n後來准公共的第三期不得續約的條件我們看到了其實只包含行為人的負責人以及員長那如果是該班的老師在全責的部分是不是會有所謂他為了要脫責或迴避那將來這樣子的一個狀況我們要如何認定為什麼到後來修成變成是條件放寬了之前的具體的那些對我來講任何一項包含性騷擾這個都叫做不當\n\n10:43.820 --> 10:48.864\n不當的一個教育不當的處理那這個部分我們的條件我們的標準在哪裡那個標準我們有一些加嚴加速退場的一個機制所以委員所看到這個是一個當時的一個草案那但是相關的修正我們委員所說要加強管控是不可以鬆手的\n\n11:08.661 --> 11:08.701\n主席\n\n11:28.900 --> 11:55.813\n這個絕對不會是答案喔因為我們得到的本來是國教署的這邊的答案居然是這樣讓我們覺得也很詫異怎麼會這樣我們不是應該是針對兒童他們自己本身的受教權跟他們的安全跟他們的福利跟權益為主怎麼會因為我有了錢像這樣子我會導致官員的速度官員的數量太多這不對喔我們提升教保品質為先啦至於退場的元素就不在我們考慮之內\n\n11:56.733 --> 12:06.477\n好那不管怎麼樣其實我們都要以兒童的權益為宗旨這個部分我希望教育部我們大家一起來努力好嗎好謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.069,"end":6.672,"text":"主席好有請次長好有請您次長委員好次長早安今天其實在這裡我想要再次的再次的告訴所有人其實凱凱案真的不能成所以今天在這個地方其實在進入我們的這個公幼或者是幼兒園的一些制度的問題之前其實我們先來討論一下這個案子次長"},{"start":32.779,"end":44.135,"text":"教育部有收到這份兒福聯盟的報告了嗎?3月29日你們就收到了。你們可以告訴我看完之後你們心裡做何感想?"},{"start":47.676,"end":62.481,"text":"在凱凱案發生之後我們對於財團法人、法授權、教育部實施所有監管工作我們就即刻要求他做相關的改善希望他兩個禮拜內提出這個改善"},{"start":64.782,"end":65.063,"text":"報告的第二頁"},{"start":83.826,"end":102.268,"text":"前面他先強調了一下這三年當中他們做了哪些事情或者是沒做哪些事情但後面我們把這個格子拉大了他說最後本會決定在2024年的經費預算上已經會呈現所謂的赤字他已經在預告他今年他的"},{"start":103.169,"end":121.102,"text":"次字將會短缺九千七百多萬．而且本會將有進行捐款．合理而且有效運用的決心．跟具體的行動在凱開案之後．他還寫到這個部分社長你的想法是"},{"start":124.394,"end":149.866,"text":"這份報告的檢視檢核我們會透過法律教育財會計方面的專家來做會審他前面有特別提到在2023年他們的服務達3000位兒少翻轉了孩子的生活處境2023年翻轉了孩子們的生活處境包括12月24日死亡的凱凱嗎?"},{"start":152.557,"end":152.577,"text":"第9頁"},{"start":170.441,"end":185.06,"text":"他的報告上第9頁．本會長期會嚴謹將善款用於服務上．也感謝各界的指教．未來更致力把每一份捐款．都用在強化社工人員的工作環境．提升個案的服務品質．"},{"start":186.701,"end":187.221,"text":"好,我們再來往下看,看第10頁"},{"start":216.325,"end":220.531,"text":"他們說他們的內控的制度是出現了一些問題這的確他們有寫到"},{"start":223.735,"end":248.226,"text":"一個財團法人．一個兒福聯盟．有龐大資產．45億資產的財團法人．到今年．到去年年底．到3月．到今年的3月．凱凱案出現爆發之後．他才跟我們說．他的內控的確有問題．社長身為主管機關的教育部．覺得這個兒福聯盟有沒有問題?"},{"start":250.419,"end":266.053,"text":"我從這個書面報告還沒有看到他檢討的決心跟未來努力這個方向雖然他寫的這個面面俱到但是對於凱萊案沒有痛下心扉的去改正我真的很遺憾"},{"start":267.031,"end":293.696,"text":"在從第4頁第11頁他說他購置不動產其實他早在2019年在內湖購置3.7億的不動產那時候其實教育部就已經有提及因為是在你們的官網裡面其實我們找得到這個新聞資料那個時候其實教育部就已經提及要針對這個事情來做審查然後要來做一些調查這個部分其實一直到現在"},{"start":294.716,"end":309.968,"text":"一直到凱凱案發生之後2024年的2月他在台中用現金現金買了9800萬的地然後現在跟我說2024年他們今年他們短缺9700多萬"},{"start":314.69,"end":334.864,"text":"本同他把現金拿去買房子當作辦公室所用所以他說現金有缺損所以這個我們要再檢視一下他這個合理性再來上次其實我有提到他們監察人的制度到後來當然其實教育部針對兒福聯盟他們的規章是得涉所謂的監察人所以他們從"},{"start":336.605,"end":361.679,"text":"幾年前他們就沒有監察人的制度也就是相對來講他的內部控管是絕對出現問題到現在他們的確也提了將來會積極尋求所謂的內控專業的一些人員跟監察人員好但是呢他們講到的居然是用志工的方式所謂的志工我不知道我的認知跟次長的認知是不是一樣志工是不知心的"},{"start":363.635,"end":365.196,"text":"監察人在法規上面沒有強制他設置但既然設置了監察人就要負監察制度的這個責任是,好"},{"start":381.565,"end":393.272,"text":"所以我們在回歸到我們教育部是它的主管機關財團法人法我不知道他們的董事甚至於他們在3月27號開了一個不給媒體記者問問題的"},{"start":397.654,"end":398.014,"text":"．4月10日及11日"},{"start":413.484,"end":435.875,"text":"財團法人法第29條所規定的法規當中有強制或者是禁止規定或者是因為因為一定行為而不為者他其實已經違反了這幾項了那接下來教育部我們針對他的這一份這一份令人覺得完全在講空話的一份報告檢討報告這個叫檢討報告教育部你們會做出什麼樣的懲處"},{"start":441.981,"end":445.763,"text":"我們經過專家會審﹐強力的嚴格的監管之後﹐如果這個書面報告有虛偽作假﹐或者是誇大歧視﹐我們會不排除勒令請他重寫重寫而已除了重寫以外﹐你對兒福聯盟﹐包含他們的董事﹐有沒有利益迴避﹐有沒有辭職﹐還有他的董事長是不是應該要下台﹐是不是要下台為凱凱案來負責﹐"},{"start":472.236,"end":476.203,"text":"有沒有辦法做到這一點這是我們教育部的職責也是我們的權利針對不合格的兒福聯盟這麼大的一個缺失是不是可以做到這一點"},{"start":485.669,"end":507.955,"text":"要如何作出懲處?對於董事會監理不周由董事長他們來負起責任那對於他的財務的相關的運用由本部來加以監管對於他的業務的推展的疏漏由他的目的事業主管機關衛務部來做檢視"},{"start":510.476,"end":525.063,"text":"這份報告是他們3月29日提出來的對那接著下來我們要看到教育部針對這份報告你們也要寫一份報告是不是也同樣的可以提供給本會的委員們我們專協會什麼時候開始"},{"start":528.251,"end":529.192,"text":"除了專家學者以外能不能夠也聽一聽凱凱的家屬們他們的說法"},{"start":547.096,"end":561.848,"text":"如果針對各案的出租養義務相關的責任的部分我們希望衛務部也應該加入我們跨部會來做一份回應他們這份報告的回應訊給我們可以嗎可以跨部會來做這件事情嗎但業務的推展跟推動"},{"start":567.912,"end":568.632,"text":"教育部列席"},{"start":595.683,"end":608.226,"text":"不續約或不得申請的條件．從一些比較具體的．比方說有身心虐待．體罰．霸凌．性騷擾．不當管教．以及其他的身心暴力．或不當對待．請主管機關處以罰還這個是之前我們的規定 對不對"},{"start":614.168,"end":630.155,"text":"後來准公共的第三期不得續約的條件我們看到了其實只包含行為人的負責人以及員長那如果是該班的老師在全責的部分是不是會有所謂他為了要脫責或迴避那將來這樣子的一個狀況我們要如何認定為什麼到後來修成變成是條件放寬了之前的具體的那些對我來講任何一項包含性騷擾這個都叫做不當"},{"start":643.82,"end":648.864,"text":"不當的一個教育不當的處理那這個部分我們的條件我們的標準在哪裡那個標準我們有一些加嚴加速退場的一個機制所以委員所看到這個是一個當時的一個草案那但是相關的修正我們委員所說要加強管控是不可以鬆手的"},{"start":668.661,"end":668.701,"text":"主席"},{"start":688.9,"end":715.813,"text":"這個絕對不會是答案喔因為我們得到的本來是國教署的這邊的答案居然是這樣讓我們覺得也很詫異怎麼會這樣我們不是應該是針對兒童他們自己本身的受教權跟他們的安全跟他們的福利跟權益為主怎麼會因為我有了錢像這樣子我會導致官員的速度官員的數量太多這不對喔我們提升教保品質為先啦至於退場的元素就不在我們考慮之內"},{"start":716.733,"end":726.477,"text":"好 那不管怎麼樣其實我們都要以兒童的權益為宗旨這個部分我希望教育部我們大家一起來努力好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝"}]}}}}