{"id":150979,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150979","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/871d5246fb87948eeee61ed647989172533009c4a7c43105f8ba9b0039caa7a6a54079fb70ee7d1b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:18:41 - 11:31:52","影片長度":"00:13:11","會議時間":"2024-04-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員邱議瑩等25人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n(二)委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具「再生醫療發展法草案」案。\n(三)委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員邱議瑩等25人擬具「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案。\n(二)委員謝衣鳯等18人擬具「再生醫療製劑管理條例草案」案。\n(三)委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具「再生醫療製劑管理條例草案」案。\n【一、二案採綜合詢答，本日會議僅詢答】\n【4月8日及10日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-11"},"date":"2024-04-10","duration":791,"end_time":"2024-04-10T11:31:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-10T11:18:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":557,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時18分）請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，這幾天很多關於性侵害影片及性剝削影片的事件，你應該都有看到嘛？在媒體上面。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員申翰：那部長知不知道這個網站，這個是號稱「台版N號房」的網站，我不想把名字唸出來。在這個網站已經有非常非常多的人受害，甚至這其實就是一個犯罪的集散地，部長知不知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：我有聽說，就是從媒體這邊得到的訊息……"],["洪委員申翰：我跟你說，這裡面非常高比例的影片其實都是被偷拍、被誘拍、性侵或者是性剝削，然後包括一些性私密的影片，裡面還包括有很多是未成年女性性行為的影片，甚至有很多影像的受害者被要求拿著學生證、身分證等等拍攝，裡面大概有三、四千名的受害者，有十幾萬支的影片。但我要問部長，你知不知道這個網站現在還在運作？一直到現在，我們人在臺灣還連得上，部長知不知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：這我不是那麼清楚。"],["洪委員申翰：不是那麼清楚嗎？部長，我告訴你，現在這個犯罪的集散地，裡面都是犯罪的影片，到目前為止，在臺灣我們還連得上，還可以使用，它還在運作。部長，你居然不知道，我很意外。"],["薛部長瑞元：我有從媒體上面得知這個網站曾經被封過，但是後來它換了一個網域，換了一個網域的話就復活……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你覺得這個犯罪的集散地應該要存在嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：不應該。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們有沒有機制來處理這件事情？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為第一個，它是一個國外的網站，所以如果要處理的話，就必須要封網，但是要封網的話，我們現在只有兩種機制，第一種機制就是有人檢舉之後，我們去做行政處分……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，昨天數發部發了稿說，如果收到衛福部命令的話，他可以執行封網，當然法律上面是叫做停止解析，數發部說如果收到衛福部行政命令的話就可以，部長，為什麼你們沒有發出這樣的行政命令？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為我剛剛在跟委員解釋，我們目前封網有兩種作業程序，第一個就是要有一個行政處分，如果行政處分叫他下架，他沒有下架的話，我們才做封網。第二種封網的機制是，檢調開始進行偵查，用扣押……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們看看法條好不好？今天有一些媒體在，其實昨天就有受害者再一次地來跟影像處理中心提出申訴，這個申訴的過程我等一下再說，他提出申訴後，大家就很希望衛福部可以有明確的作為來停止，包括封網，當然昨天衛福部做了，但只要求下架。部長，你看一下，不管是在性侵害犯罪防治法第十三條或是兒少性剝防制條例第八條，大概都有類似的條文，如果我們知道這個網站上面有性侵害犯罪嫌疑的情事，主管機關應先行限制瀏覽或移除與犯罪有關之網頁內容，這是在性侵害犯罪防治法第十三條所規定的，兒少性剝防制條例一樣有類似的條文，我們的母法裡面是跟你說，你可以去做先行限制瀏覽的工作了，但為什麼……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這一般講的就是下架的意思。"],["洪委員申翰：對，先行限制瀏覽嘛，對不對？但我們現在沒有先行限制瀏覽啊！剛剛部長說，我們知道這上面有犯罪的情事，我們知道了，按照條文，衛福部應該按照這個母法就可以執行限制瀏覽或直接移除與犯罪相關的網頁資料，這是母法寫的，但我知道現在我們的問題，現在的問題是什麼？就是我們在這個施行細則訂了一個前提，說一定要我聯絡不到這個網路業者，或是我要求他下架而他不願意下架，我才可以做出即時強制。但這不是母法寫的，這是施行細則啊！部長，我們現在是自己用施行細則把我們的手腳給綁住了，母法裡面明明就有說，你知道這個網站上面有犯罪嫌疑的事實，我們就可以做啊！母法是這樣寫的啊！所以部長，不要怪到母法，現在是施行細則把自己的手腳綁住了、設了前提，我如果通知得到他或者是他可以下架一支影片的話，那我就不能夠對他做整個網站的強制處分。","部長，我要跟你說，現在這些業者，包括剛才講的台版N號房的業者，他就是這樣幹！他有十幾萬支影片，你叫他下架那一支，他就下架那一支，他用下架一支來保他十幾萬支的影片可以繼續運作、繼續被瀏覽，現在他就是這樣幹！所以你今天叫他下架那一支影片，他說：好，我願意。可是為什麼他這一套可以規避？是因為我們自己訂的施行細則把手腳給綁住了，反而沒有辦法執行我們母法原本的意旨啊！回到剛剛的母法，部長，這個母法就是你可以做啊！「知有性侵害犯罪嫌疑情事，應先行限制瀏覽」，是這個意思吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：這邊所謂的限制瀏覽跟移除，就是我們一般講的下架。"],["洪委員申翰：不是，我們也沒有限制瀏覽啊！請問昨天那一位受害者檢舉了以後，我們有限制瀏覽嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在有兩個概念我們必須要釐清，一個是對個別影片的限制瀏覽，就是下架；另外一個是對整個網站，等於就是讓他無法接觸。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你這樣講是不通的，我們是在這第十三條跟第八條裡面，你用剛才訂的那個施行細則，你剛才講的強制處置就是封網的其中一種方式，如果你這樣解釋第十三條跟第八條的話，那你也根本就沒有權力可以封網，你現在窄化的解釋又是再一次捆綁了自己的手腳，你剛才那個解釋是不通的！如果按照你剛才的解釋，這只有針對單支影片的話，那行政根本就不能夠封網，可是你剛剛一開始的時候，明明就說行政上面是可以封網的，是我們自己在施行細則設了剛剛那個前提。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，這兩個狀況的確還是不一樣，比方說，我們經常在用LINE，在LINE裡面……"],["洪委員申翰：我今天就跟你討論……"],["薛部長瑞元：有人上傳了一個兒少色情的影片……"],["洪委員申翰：我知道單支影片你可以處理，但我現在的問題是，現在這整個犯罪……"],["薛部長瑞元：但是我不能封網啊！我沒有辦法把整個LINE封掉啊！"],["洪委員申翰：你當然沒有辦法，我現在的問題是，因為LINE不是所有都犯罪嘛！但是剛剛那個網站上犯罪的比例這麼高，都是性侵害的影片、未成年的影片，你剛才說它不該存在嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以現在是兩個不同的狀況，一個是對個別影片的下架，這個沒有辦法……"],["洪委員申翰：我們上面寫先行限制瀏覽，其實就是現在我們在說的停止解析。今天封網，我也不是把你整個抄了，我就是停止解析，讓你在臺灣連不上嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊。"],["洪委員申翰：這就是先行限制瀏覽嘛！所以我今天讓這整個網站被停止解析，其實跟條文裡面的意旨是相符的，是你現在一直在限制、窄化法律上面的工具，你一直在窄化工具，然後說我沒有辦法，其實法條上面就是讓你知道，應先行限制瀏覽，這個某部分在網站上面就是停止解析，就是封網的意思啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：好，如果是這樣子的話，這個是大家的共識，因為所有施行細則的通過跟修正，都還是要報到立法院裡面來……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我當然希望我們母法接下來……因為很多委員也提出可以修法、加重罰則，這個之後大家會處理，可是現在就封網上面的執行，其實是在我們施行細則裡面把自己的手腳綁住，這是第一點我要跟部長說的。","第二點，其實我們現在很荒謬，都要受害者自己去檢舉，以剛剛台版N號房的例子來說，對不起喔！你要怎麼檢舉？你還要付費先成為會員，你要檢舉他，還要先花一筆很大的錢，也許是幾萬塊，付費成為會員進到裡面以後，你才可以取證、截圖，然後送去影像處理中心。重點是什麼？我可能第一次做了這件事情以後，下一次這個業者再把我的影片上傳一次，我這個受害者或那個受害者還要重複的流程再做一次，他還要再一次成為付費的會員，再一次想盡辦法上去截圖、取證，才能夠再做一次。部長，你覺得這不荒謬嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這的確有問題啦！不過我跟委員報告，我在這邊也順便跟媒體做一個宣示，所有你所瀏覽的這種色情網站，我們都可以追蹤得到，所以你要成為它的會員，哪一天你就可能會被我們追蹤到，這在技術上面是可行的。"],["洪委員申翰：不是，部長，你可以這樣宣示，但大家期待看到的是你做這些事情，該制裁的人就必須制裁他嘛！現在整套的法律制度裡面非常非常依賴受害者自己檢舉，而且你還要自己舉證，如果你不舉證，可能還不受理喔！這個方法非常無法去處理集團式性侵害影片的犯罪。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，讓我把這個講完。第二點是我們準備要做一個事情，就是主動去搜尋，我們會主動去搜尋這種有兒少色情的網站。第三點、現在委員所提到的這個網站，我們會先行發文給數位部先把它封掉，因為它是在國外的……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我知道我們把它封了以後，它可能還會再換網域，但換網域還是有它的成本。我能夠封你兩次，為什麼不能封你一百次？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員申翰：只要是同樣的內容、同樣的網站，為什麼不能封你一百次？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以就牽涉到我剛剛講的第二點，我們必須能夠主動去搜尋，不必等人家來檢舉。"],["洪委員申翰：對，我們現在都是要等人家來檢舉。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是這個部分未來需要修法……"],["洪委員申翰：可是你要主動搜尋，要有一些包括資料庫等等的建立，我們才知道這個影片之前其實已經處理過了，或哪些是在我們處理的範圍裡面，這有一些相關的軟硬體要建置。部長，我覺得我們應該把這部分的配套提出來，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們必須跟數發部……"],["主席：洪委員因為時間的關係……"],["洪委員申翰：兩個禮拜內可不可以提出這個配套？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不敢講，因為這必須要跟數發部再來做一些討論，我知道這個技術可行，但是實際上要怎麼樣做，預算要怎麼樣來編，這個可能要……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我時間沒了，但我最後要說，我覺得法律上是有授權給你們的，不要再用施行細則、不要再用子法，把自己的手腳綁起來變成很難作為。我昨天聯絡了一整天，都跟我說沒辦法，結果法條翻出來，明明母法就有給你這個權力，卻在子法跟施行細則限制了自己，我覺得這對很多受害者真的很不公平。"],["主席：洪委員，因為時間的關係，不好意思。請部長針對委員所提出來的，會後再說明。","接下來請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-11","speakers":["黃秀芳","邱議瑩","羅廷瑋","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃捷","賴士葆","陳瑩","黃國昌","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","楊曜","劉建國","邱鎮軍","林德福","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員邱議瑩等25人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案、(二)委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具「再生\n醫療法草案」案、(三)委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案；二、審查(一)委員邱議瑩\n等25人擬具「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案、(二)委員謝衣鳯等18人擬具「再生醫療製劑管理條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員羅廷瑋等21 人擬具「再生醫療製劑管理條例草案」案【一、二案採綜合詢\n答，本日會議僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1132601_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"150979","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150979","tool":"pyannote","id":"150979-pyannote"},"job_id":"OPbb3PlAZSTdrxLy","queued_at":"2024-06-01 12:32:20","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-01 12:33:56","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150979"},{"time":"2024-06-01 12:33:57","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/871d5246fb87948eeee61ed647989172533009c4a7c431059cf12f16b805e0f409a2b06159e1097d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-01 12:34:21","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-01 12:34:23","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-06-01 12:34:35","msg":"status: 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00:01:11,939\n你知道這個網站其實已經有非常非常多的受害人受害那甚至這其實就是一個犯罪的集散地部長知不知道我有聽說啦就從媒體這邊得到的訊息部長我跟你說齁這裡面很多非常高比例的影片其實都是被偷拍被誘拍的性侵\n\n4\n00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:14,500\n邱議瑩等21人擬具〈再生醫療法草案〉案。\n\n5\n00:01:38,769 --> 00:02:05,609\n武人在臺灣還連得上部長知不知道這我不是那麼清楚不是那麼清楚嗎對讓我告訴你現在這一個犯罪的集散地裡面都是犯罪的影片到目前為止到目前為止在臺灣我們還連得上還可以使用他還在運作部長你居然不知道我很意外\n\n6\n00:02:08,089 --> 00:02:20,370\n我從媒體上面得知在網站曾經被封過但是後來他換了一個網域換了一個網域的話就部長你覺得這個犯罪的集散地應該要存在嗎?不應該\n\n7\n00:02:21,072 --> 00:02:39,935\n那我們有沒有機制來處理這件事情?部長因為第一個它是一個國外的網站那所以如果要處理的話就必須要封網但是要封網的話我們現在只有兩種機制第一種機制的話就是有人檢舉之後那我們\n\n8\n00:02:40,996 --> 00:02:56,375\n昨天訴發部其實說了喔他發了稿說如果收到衛福部命令的話他可以執行封網這封網大概但法律上面是叫做停止解析啦對不對說訴發部如果收到訴發部命令的話行政命令的話可以部長為什麼我們\n\n9\n00:02:58,191 --> 00:03:24,291\n沒有發出這樣的行政命令因為我剛剛在跟委員解釋就是說我們目前的話封網有兩種的作業程序第一個的話就是要有一個行政處分行政處分他如果叫他下架他沒有下架的話我們才做封網那第二種的話封網的機制是剪掉剪掉他開始進行政府部長我們看看法條好不好部長我們看看法條好不好我先跟部長我今天一些媒體在\n\n10\n00:03:24,867 --> 00:03:40,938\n其實昨天就有受害者再一次的來跟我們的影像處理中心提出申訴這個申訴的過程坦白說我等一下再說但提出申訴大家很希望衛福部就可以有明確的作為來停止包括封網\n\n11\n00:03:42,403 --> 00:03:55,856\n但昨天當然衛福部做了但只做了說要求下架不然你看一下我們不管是在新千範犯罪防治法第13條或者是兒少性撥防治法第8條大概都有類似的條文\n\n12\n00:03:57,116 --> 00:04:19,846\n如果我們知道這個網站上面有性侵害犯罪嫌疑的情勢主管機關應先行限制瀏覽或移除犯罪有關之網頁內容這是在性侵害防治法第13條而邵信波一樣有類似的條文我們的母法裡面是跟你說你可以去做先行限制瀏覽的工作的\n\n13\n00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:48,362\n但為什麼...對!就是先行限制瀏覽嘛對不對?但我們現在沒有先行限制瀏覽啊剛剛部長說我們知道這上面有犯罪的情勢我們知道了按照條文衛福部就可以按照應該是要按照這個母法就可以執行限制瀏覽或直接移除犯罪相關的網頁資料這是母法寫的\n\n14\n00:04:50,472 --> 00:05:12,021\n但我知道現在我們的問題現在問題是什麼下一頁我們在這裡面施行細則訂了一個前提說一定要我聯絡不到這個網路業者或者是我要求他下架他不願意下架我才可以做出即時的強制但這不是母法寫的這是施行細則啊部長我們現在是自己用施行細則把我們的手腳給綁住了\n\n15\n00:05:20,134 --> 00:05:41,233\n武法裡面明明就有說你知道這個網站上面有犯罪嫌疑的事實我們就可以做啊武法是這樣寫的啊所以部長不要怪到武法啊現在是施行細則把自己手腳綁住了設了前提你一定要\n\n16\n00:05:42,554 --> 00:06:10,600\n通知你我若通知得到或者是他可以下架一支影片的話那我就不能夠對他做整個網站的強制處分不然我要跟你說現在這些業者包括剛才講的這個台版N號房業者他就是這樣幹他有十幾萬支影片你叫我下架那一支我就下架那一支我用下架一支來把我十幾萬支的影片繼續運作繼續可以被瀏覽現在他就是這樣幹\n\n17\n00:06:13,035 --> 00:06:41,987\n所以你今天叫他下架那一支影片他說好我願意可是為什麼他這一套可以規避是因為我們自己定的事情細則把手腳綁住了你反而沒有辦法執行我們母法原本的意旨啊回到剛剛母法部長這個母法就是你可以做啊你知道上面知有性侵害犯罪嫌疑情勢應先行限制瀏覽啊\n\n18\n00:06:45,239 --> 00:07:10,284\n是這個意思吧?這邊的所謂的限制瀏覽跟移除的話就是我們一般來講的下架那我們也沒有限制瀏覽啊我們現在請問昨天那一位受害者他檢舉了以後我們有限制瀏覽嗎?現在有兩個概念我們必須要理清一個是對個別的影片\n\n19\n00:07:11,243 --> 00:07:38,999\n審判限制就下架。另外一個是對整個網站的等於就是要讓他無法接觸。部長,你這樣講是不通的。我們是在這13條跟第8條裡面,你用剛才定的施行細則,你剛才想寫的強制處置就是封網的其中一種方式。如果你這樣解釋第13條跟第8條的話,那你也根本就沒有權利可以封網。你現在窄化的解釋又是再一次捆綁了自己的手腳。\n\n20\n00:07:39,919 --> 00:08:08,056\n你剛才這個解釋是不通的如果按照你剛才解釋這只有針對單支影片的話那我們根本行政就不能夠封網可是你剛才一開始的時候明明就是說行政上面是可以封網的是我們自己在施行細則設了剛剛那個前提沒有這兩個狀況的確還是不一樣啊比方說我們在LINE我們經常在用LINE嘛對不對在LINE我今天就跟你討論有人上傳了一個兒少的這種設計我知道單支影片你可以處理但我現在問你是說\n\n21\n00:08:08,556 --> 00:08:25,807\n但是我不能封網啊我沒有辦法把整個LINE封掉啊你當然沒有辦法但我今天問題是今天這個網站因為LINE不是所有都犯罪嘛但是現在剛剛這個網站上犯罪的比例這麼高都是性侵害的影片未成年的影片你剛才說它不該存在嘛\n\n22\n00:08:26,447 --> 00:08:44,659\n對,所以現在是兩個不同的狀況,一個是所謂的下架,是對個別影片的下架。我們上面寫先行限制瀏覽,其實就是現在我們在說的停止解析嘛。今天封網我也不是把你整個抄了,而是我就是停止解析,讓你在台灣連不上嘛。這就是先行限制瀏覽嘛。\n\n23\n00:08:45,580 --> 00:09:07,671\n所以我今天讓這整個網站被停止解析其實是跟你條文裡面的意旨是相符的啊是你現在一直在限制載化你這個法律上面你的工具你一直在載化工具然後說我沒有辦法其實法條上面就是讓你知道你應先行限制瀏覽這個某部分在網站上面就停止解析就是封網的意思啊\n\n24\n00:09:08,915 --> 00:09:33,605\n那如果是這樣子的話這個是大家的公式因為所有的施行細則的通過跟修正的話都還是要到院裡面那立法院裡面來部長我當然希望我們母法接下來因為很多委員提出可以修法加重罰則這個之後大家會處理可是現在就這個封網上面的執行其實是在我們施行細則裡面把自己手腳綁住這是第一點\n\n25\n00:09:34,605 --> 00:09:47,255\n我要跟部長說第二點其實我們現在很荒謬都要受害者自己去檢舉以剛剛這個台版N號房的例子裡面對不起喔你要怎麼檢舉你還要付費先成為會員你要檢舉他我還要花一個很大的錢也許幾萬塊付費成為會員進到裡面以後我才可以取證截圖然後去\n\n26\n00:10:00,239 --> 00:10:18,357\n送到影像處理中心。」重點是什麼?我可能第一次做了這件事情以後下一次這個業者再把我的影片上傳一次我這個受害者或這個受害者他還要重複的流程再做一次他還要再一次成為付費的會員再一次想盡辦法上去\n\n27\n00:10:19,534 --> 00:10:41,017\n然後截圖取證才能夠再做一次部長你覺得不荒謬嗎這的確有問題這樣子不過我跟委員報告我在這邊順便就等於說跟媒體這方面做一個宣示所有的你在瀏覽這種社群網站我們都可以追蹤的到\n\n28\n00:10:42,369 --> 00:11:05,529\n所以你要成為他的會員有哪一天你就可能會被我們追蹤到這技術上面是可行的不是不然你可以這樣宣示那大家期待看到你把這個事情可以做給該制裁的人必須制裁他嘛現在我們整套的法律制度裡面非常非常依賴受害者自己檢舉而且你還要自己取證喔而且你不取證\n\n29\n00:11:06,229 --> 00:11:22,550\n對不起可能還不受理喔我們這個方法非常無法去處理集團式的性侵害影片的犯罪讓我把這個講完第二點是我們準備要做一個事情就是主動去搜尋\n\n30\n00:11:24,032 --> 00:11:27,653\n邱議瑩等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案案案件事件事件事件事件事件事件事件\n\n31\n00:11:41,678 --> 00:12:03,905\n因為他是在國外的部長我跟你說我知道我們把它封以後他可能還會再換網域我知道但是對不起你換網域一次你還是有他的成本我能夠封你兩次為什麼不能封你一百次只要你是同樣的內容同樣的網站為什麼不能封你一百次所以就是牽涉到我剛剛講的第二點我們必須能夠主動去搜尋不必等人家來解決\n\n32\n00:12:04,645 --> 00:12:33,219\n我們現在都是要等人家來檢舉可是你要主動搜尋我們要有一些包括資料庫等等的建立我們才知道這個影片之前其實我們已經處理過了或哪些是在我們處理的範圍裡面這些有一些相關的軟硬體要建置這部分部長我覺得我們應該把配套提出來好不好兩個禮拜內可不可以提出這個配套我不敢講因為這必須要跟書法部再來做一些討論我知道這個技術是可行的\n\n33\n00:12:33,779 --> 00:13:01,930\n但是實際上要怎麼樣做?那個預算要怎麼樣來編?不然我時間沒了,但我最後要說我覺得我們法律上面是有給你們授權的不要再用施行細則不要再用執法把自己的手腳給綁起來變成我們很難作為我昨天聯絡了一整天都跟我說我沒辦法結果法條翻出來明明母法就有給你這個權利是我們在執法跟施行細則限制了自己我覺得這對很多受害者真的很不公平\n\n34\n00:13:02,745 --> 00:13:02,845\n邱議瑩等25人擬具\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1629\t13871\t福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及�\n21469\t44846\t老闆,我想這幾天很多關於性侵害影片跟性剝削影片的事件應該都有看到在媒體上面那部長你知不知道這個網站這個網站是被號稱叫做台版的N號房的網站我不想把它的名字給唸出來\n48561\t71939\t你知道這個網站其實已經有非常非常多的受害人受害那甚至這其實就是一個犯罪的集散地部長知不知道我有聽說啦就從媒體這邊得到的訊息部長我跟你說齁這裡面很多非常高比例的影片其實都是被偷拍被誘拍的性侵\n73200\t74500\t邱議瑩等21人擬具〈再生醫療法草案〉案。\n98769\t125609\t武人在臺灣還連得上部長知不知道這我不是那麼清楚不是那麼清楚嗎對讓我告訴你現在這一個犯罪的集散地裡面都是犯罪的影片到目前為止到目前為止在臺灣我們還連得上還可以使用他還在運作部長你居然不知道我很意外\n128089\t140370\t我從媒體上面得知在網站曾經被封過但是後來他換了一個網域換了一個網域的話就部長你覺得這個犯罪的集散地應該要存在嗎?不應該\n141072\t159935\t那我們有沒有機制來處理這件事情?部長因為第一個它是一個國外的網站那所以如果要處理的話就必須要封網但是要封網的話我們現在只有兩種機制第一種機制的話就是有人檢舉之後那我們\n160996\t176375\t昨天訴發部其實說了喔他發了稿說如果收到衛福部命令的話他可以執行封網這封網大概但法律上面是叫做停止解析啦對不對說訴發部如果收到訴發部命令的話行政命令的話可以部長為什麼我們\n178191\t204291\t沒有發出這樣的行政命令因為我剛剛在跟委員解釋就是說我們目前的話封網有兩種的作業程序第一個的話就是要有一個行政處分行政處分他如果叫他下架他沒有下架的話我們才做封網那第二種的話封網的機制是剪掉剪掉他開始進行政府部長我們看看法條好不好部長我們看看法條好不好我先跟部長我今天一些媒體在\n204867\t220938\t其實昨天就有受害者再一次的來跟我們的影像處理中心提出申訴這個申訴的過程坦白說我等一下再說但提出申訴大家很希望衛福部就可以有明確的作為來停止包括封網\n222403\t235856\t但昨天當然衛福部做了但只做了說要求下架不然你看一下我們不管是在新千範犯罪防治法第13條或者是兒少性撥防治法第8條大概都有類似的條文\n237116\t259846\t如果我們知道這個網站上面有性侵害犯罪嫌疑的情勢主管機關應先行限制瀏覽或移除犯罪有關之網頁內容這是在性侵害防治法第13條而邵信波一樣有類似的條文我們的母法裡面是跟你說你可以去做先行限制瀏覽的工作的\n261240\t288362\t但為什麼...對!就是先行限制瀏覽嘛對不對?但我們現在沒有先行限制瀏覽啊剛剛部長說我們知道這上面有犯罪的情勢我們知道了按照條文衛福部就可以按照應該是要按照這個母法就可以執行限制瀏覽或直接移除犯罪相關的網頁資料這是母法寫的\n290472\t312021\t但我知道現在我們的問題現在問題是什麼下一頁我們在這裡面施行細則訂了一個前提說一定要我聯絡不到這個網路業者或者是我要求他下架他不願意下架我才可以做出即時的強制但這不是母法寫的這是施行細則啊部長我們現在是自己用施行細則把我們的手腳給綁住了\n320134\t341233\t武法裡面明明就有說你知道這個網站上面有犯罪嫌疑的事實我們就可以做啊武法是這樣寫的啊所以部長不要怪到武法啊現在是施行細則把自己手腳綁住了設了前提你一定要\n342554\t370600\t通知你我若通知得到或者是他可以下架一支影片的話那我就不能夠對他做整個網站的強制處分不然我要跟你說現在這些業者包括剛才講的這個台版N號房業者他就是這樣幹他有十幾萬支影片你叫我下架那一支我就下架那一支我用下架一支來把我十幾萬支的影片繼續運作繼續可以被瀏覽現在他就是這樣幹\n373035\t401987\t所以你今天叫他下架那一支影片他說好我願意可是為什麼他這一套可以規避是因為我們自己定的事情細則把手腳綁住了你反而沒有辦法執行我們母法原本的意旨啊回到剛剛母法部長這個母法就是你可以做啊你知道上面知有性侵害犯罪嫌疑情勢應先行限制瀏覽啊\n405239\t430284\t是這個意思吧?這邊的所謂的限制瀏覽跟移除的話就是我們一般來講的下架那我們也沒有限制瀏覽啊我們現在請問昨天那一位受害者他檢舉了以後我們有限制瀏覽嗎?現在有兩個概念我們必須要理清一個是對個別的影片\n431243\t458999\t審判限制就下架。另外一個是對整個網站的等於就是要讓他無法接觸。部長,你這樣講是不通的。我們是在這13條跟第8條裡面,你用剛才定的施行細則,你剛才想寫的強制處置就是封網的其中一種方式。如果你這樣解釋第13條跟第8條的話,那你也根本就沒有權利可以封網。你現在窄化的解釋又是再一次捆綁了自己的手腳。\n459919\t488056\t你剛才這個解釋是不通的如果按照你剛才解釋這只有針對單支影片的話那我們根本行政就不能夠封網可是你剛才一開始的時候明明就是說行政上面是可以封網的是我們自己在施行細則設了剛剛那個前提沒有這兩個狀況的確還是不一樣啊比方說我們在LINE我們經常在用LINE嘛對不對在LINE我今天就跟你討論有人上傳了一個兒少的這種設計我知道單支影片你可以處理但我現在問你是說\n488556\t505807\t但是我不能封網啊我沒有辦法把整個LINE封掉啊你當然沒有辦法但我今天問題是今天這個網站因為LINE不是所有都犯罪嘛但是現在剛剛這個網站上犯罪的比例這麼高都是性侵害的影片未成年的影片你剛才說它不該存在嘛\n506447\t524659\t對,所以現在是兩個不同的狀況,一個是所謂的下架,是對個別影片的下架。我們上面寫先行限制瀏覽,其實就是現在我們在說的停止解析嘛。今天封網我也不是把你整個抄了,而是我就是停止解析,讓你在台灣連不上嘛。這就是先行限制瀏覽嘛。\n525580\t547671\t所以我今天讓這整個網站被停止解析其實是跟你條文裡面的意旨是相符的啊是你現在一直在限制載化你這個法律上面你的工具你一直在載化工具然後說我沒有辦法其實法條上面就是讓你知道你應先行限制瀏覽這個某部分在網站上面就停止解析就是封網的意思啊\n548915\t573605\t那如果是這樣子的話這個是大家的公式因為所有的施行細則的通過跟修正的話都還是要到院裡面那立法院裡面來部長我當然希望我們母法接下來因為很多委員提出可以修法加重罰則這個之後大家會處理可是現在就這個封網上面的執行其實是在我們施行細則裡面把自己手腳綁住這是第一點\n574605\t587255\t我要跟部長說第二點其實我們現在很荒謬都要受害者自己去檢舉以剛剛這個台版N號房的例子裡面對不起喔你要怎麼檢舉你還要付費先成為會員你要檢舉他我還要花一個很大的錢也許幾萬塊付費成為會員進到裡面以後我才可以取證截圖然後去\n600239\t618357\t送到影像處理中心。」重點是什麼?我可能第一次做了這件事情以後下一次這個業者再把我的影片上傳一次我這個受害者或這個受害者他還要重複的流程再做一次他還要再一次成為付費的會員再一次想盡辦法上去\n619534\t641017\t然後截圖取證才能夠再做一次部長你覺得不荒謬嗎這的確有問題這樣子不過我跟委員報告我在這邊順便就等於說跟媒體這方面做一個宣示所有的你在瀏覽這種社群網站我們都可以追蹤的到\n642369\t665529\t所以你要成為他的會員有哪一天你就可能會被我們追蹤到這技術上面是可行的不是 不然你可以這樣宣示那大家期待看到你把這個事情可以做給該制裁的人必須制裁他嘛現在我們整套的法律制度裡面非常非常依賴受害者自己檢舉而且你還要自己取證喔而且你不取證\n666229\t682550\t對不起可能還不受理喔我們這個方法非常無法去處理集團式的性侵害影片的犯罪讓我把這個講完第二點是我們準備要做一個事情就是主動去搜尋\n684032\t687653\t邱議瑩等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案案案件事件事件事件事件事件事件事件\n701678\t723905\t因為他是在國外的部長我跟你說我知道我們把它封以後他可能還會再換網域我知道但是對不起你換網域一次你還是有他的成本我能夠封你兩次為什麼不能封你一百次只要你是同樣的內容同樣的網站為什麼不能封你一百次所以就是牽涉到我剛剛講的第二點我們必須能夠主動去搜尋不必等人家來解決\n724645\t753219\t我們現在都是要等人家來檢舉可是你要主動搜尋我們要有一些包括資料庫等等的建立我們才知道這個影片之前其實我們已經處理過了或哪些是在我們處理的範圍裡面這些有一些相關的軟硬體要建置這部分部長我覺得我們應該把配套提出來好不好兩個禮拜內可不可以提出這個配套我不敢講因為這必須要跟書法部再來做一些討論我知道這個技術是可行的\n753779\t781930\t但是實際上要怎麼樣做?那個預算要怎麼樣來編?不然我時間沒了,但我最後要說我覺得我們法律上面是有給你們授權的不要再用施行細則不要再用執法把自己的手腳給綁起來變成我們很難作為我昨天聯絡了一整天都跟我說我沒辦法結果法條翻出來明明母法就有給你這個權利是我們在執法跟施行細則限制了自己我覺得這對很多受害者真的很不公平\n782745\t782845\t邱議瑩等25人擬具\n","txt":"福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及�\n老闆,我想這幾天很多關於性侵害影片跟性剝削影片的事件應該都有看到在媒體上面那部長你知不知道這個網站這個網站是被號稱叫做台版的N號房的網站我不想把它的名字給唸出來\n你知道這個網站其實已經有非常非常多的受害人受害那甚至這其實就是一個犯罪的集散地部長知不知道我有聽說啦就從媒體這邊得到的訊息部長我跟你說齁這裡面很多非常高比例的影片其實都是被偷拍被誘拍的性侵\n邱議瑩等21人擬具〈再生醫療法草案〉案。\n武人在臺灣還連得上部長知不知道這我不是那麼清楚不是那麼清楚嗎對讓我告訴你現在這一個犯罪的集散地裡面都是犯罪的影片到目前為止到目前為止在臺灣我們還連得上還可以使用他還在運作部長你居然不知道我很意外\n我從媒體上面得知在網站曾經被封過但是後來他換了一個網域換了一個網域的話就部長你覺得這個犯罪的集散地應該要存在嗎?不應該\n那我們有沒有機制來處理這件事情?部長因為第一個它是一個國外的網站那所以如果要處理的話就必須要封網但是要封網的話我們現在只有兩種機制第一種機制的話就是有人檢舉之後那我們\n昨天訴發部其實說了喔他發了稿說如果收到衛福部命令的話他可以執行封網這封網大概但法律上面是叫做停止解析啦對不對說訴發部如果收到訴發部命令的話行政命令的話可以部長為什麼我們\n沒有發出這樣的行政命令因為我剛剛在跟委員解釋就是說我們目前的話封網有兩種的作業程序第一個的話就是要有一個行政處分行政處分他如果叫他下架他沒有下架的話我們才做封網那第二種的話封網的機制是剪掉剪掉他開始進行政府部長我們看看法條好不好部長我們看看法條好不好我先跟部長我今天一些媒體在\n其實昨天就有受害者再一次的來跟我們的影像處理中心提出申訴這個申訴的過程坦白說我等一下再說但提出申訴大家很希望衛福部就可以有明確的作為來停止包括封網\n但昨天當然衛福部做了但只做了說要求下架不然你看一下我們不管是在新千範犯罪防治法第13條或者是兒少性撥防治法第8條大概都有類似的條文\n如果我們知道這個網站上面有性侵害犯罪嫌疑的情勢主管機關應先行限制瀏覽或移除犯罪有關之網頁內容這是在性侵害防治法第13條而邵信波一樣有類似的條文我們的母法裡面是跟你說你可以去做先行限制瀏覽的工作的\n但為什麼...對!就是先行限制瀏覽嘛對不對?但我們現在沒有先行限制瀏覽啊剛剛部長說我們知道這上面有犯罪的情勢我們知道了按照條文衛福部就可以按照應該是要按照這個母法就可以執行限制瀏覽或直接移除犯罪相關的網頁資料這是母法寫的\n但我知道現在我們的問題現在問題是什麼下一頁我們在這裡面施行細則訂了一個前提說一定要我聯絡不到這個網路業者或者是我要求他下架他不願意下架我才可以做出即時的強制但這不是母法寫的這是施行細則啊部長我們現在是自己用施行細則把我們的手腳給綁住了\n武法裡面明明就有說你知道這個網站上面有犯罪嫌疑的事實我們就可以做啊武法是這樣寫的啊所以部長不要怪到武法啊現在是施行細則把自己手腳綁住了設了前提你一定要\n通知你我若通知得到或者是他可以下架一支影片的話那我就不能夠對他做整個網站的強制處分不然我要跟你說現在這些業者包括剛才講的這個台版N號房業者他就是這樣幹他有十幾萬支影片你叫我下架那一支我就下架那一支我用下架一支來把我十幾萬支的影片繼續運作繼續可以被瀏覽現在他就是這樣幹\n所以你今天叫他下架那一支影片他說好我願意可是為什麼他這一套可以規避是因為我們自己定的事情細則把手腳綁住了你反而沒有辦法執行我們母法原本的意旨啊回到剛剛母法部長這個母法就是你可以做啊你知道上面知有性侵害犯罪嫌疑情勢應先行限制瀏覽啊\n是這個意思吧?這邊的所謂的限制瀏覽跟移除的話就是我們一般來講的下架那我們也沒有限制瀏覽啊我們現在請問昨天那一位受害者他檢舉了以後我們有限制瀏覽嗎?現在有兩個概念我們必須要理清一個是對個別的影片\n審判限制就下架。另外一個是對整個網站的等於就是要讓他無法接觸。部長,你這樣講是不通的。我們是在這13條跟第8條裡面,你用剛才定的施行細則,你剛才想寫的強制處置就是封網的其中一種方式。如果你這樣解釋第13條跟第8條的話,那你也根本就沒有權利可以封網。你現在窄化的解釋又是再一次捆綁了自己的手腳。\n你剛才這個解釋是不通的如果按照你剛才解釋這只有針對單支影片的話那我們根本行政就不能夠封網可是你剛才一開始的時候明明就是說行政上面是可以封網的是我們自己在施行細則設了剛剛那個前提沒有這兩個狀況的確還是不一樣啊比方說我們在LINE我們經常在用LINE嘛對不對在LINE我今天就跟你討論有人上傳了一個兒少的這種設計我知道單支影片你可以處理但我現在問你是說\n但是我不能封網啊我沒有辦法把整個LINE封掉啊你當然沒有辦法但我今天問題是今天這個網站因為LINE不是所有都犯罪嘛但是現在剛剛這個網站上犯罪的比例這麼高都是性侵害的影片未成年的影片你剛才說它不該存在嘛\n對,所以現在是兩個不同的狀況,一個是所謂的下架,是對個別影片的下架。我們上面寫先行限制瀏覽,其實就是現在我們在說的停止解析嘛。今天封網我也不是把你整個抄了,而是我就是停止解析,讓你在台灣連不上嘛。這就是先行限制瀏覽嘛。\n所以我今天讓這整個網站被停止解析其實是跟你條文裡面的意旨是相符的啊是你現在一直在限制載化你這個法律上面你的工具你一直在載化工具然後說我沒有辦法其實法條上面就是讓你知道你應先行限制瀏覽這個某部分在網站上面就停止解析就是封網的意思啊\n那如果是這樣子的話這個是大家的公式因為所有的施行細則的通過跟修正的話都還是要到院裡面那立法院裡面來部長我當然希望我們母法接下來因為很多委員提出可以修法加重罰則這個之後大家會處理可是現在就這個封網上面的執行其實是在我們施行細則裡面把自己手腳綁住這是第一點\n我要跟部長說第二點其實我們現在很荒謬都要受害者自己去檢舉以剛剛這個台版N號房的例子裡面對不起喔你要怎麼檢舉你還要付費先成為會員你要檢舉他我還要花一個很大的錢也許幾萬塊付費成為會員進到裡面以後我才可以取證截圖然後去\n送到影像處理中心。」重點是什麼?我可能第一次做了這件事情以後下一次這個業者再把我的影片上傳一次我這個受害者或這個受害者他還要重複的流程再做一次他還要再一次成為付費的會員再一次想盡辦法上去\n然後截圖取證才能夠再做一次部長你覺得不荒謬嗎這的確有問題這樣子不過我跟委員報告我在這邊順便就等於說跟媒體這方面做一個宣示所有的你在瀏覽這種社群網站我們都可以追蹤的到\n所以你要成為他的會員有哪一天你就可能會被我們追蹤到這技術上面是可行的不是 不然你可以這樣宣示那大家期待看到你把這個事情可以做給該制裁的人必須制裁他嘛現在我們整套的法律制度裡面非常非常依賴受害者自己檢舉而且你還要自己取證喔而且你不取證\n對不起可能還不受理喔我們這個方法非常無法去處理集團式的性侵害影片的犯罪讓我把這個講完第二點是我們準備要做一個事情就是主動去搜尋\n邱議瑩等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案案案件事件事件事件事件事件事件事件\n因為他是在國外的部長我跟你說我知道我們把它封以後他可能還會再換網域我知道但是對不起你換網域一次你還是有他的成本我能夠封你兩次為什麼不能封你一百次只要你是同樣的內容同樣的網站為什麼不能封你一百次所以就是牽涉到我剛剛講的第二點我們必須能夠主動去搜尋不必等人家來解決\n我們現在都是要等人家來檢舉可是你要主動搜尋我們要有一些包括資料庫等等的建立我們才知道這個影片之前其實我們已經處理過了或哪些是在我們處理的範圍裡面這些有一些相關的軟硬體要建置這部分部長我覺得我們應該把配套提出來好不好兩個禮拜內可不可以提出這個配套我不敢講因為這必須要跟書法部再來做一些討論我知道這個技術是可行的\n但是實際上要怎麼樣做?那個預算要怎麼樣來編?不然我時間沒了,但我最後要說我覺得我們法律上面是有給你們授權的不要再用施行細則不要再用執法把自己的手腳給綁起來變成我們很難作為我昨天聯絡了一整天都跟我說我沒辦法結果法條翻出來明明母法就有給你這個權利是我們在執法跟施行細則限制了自己我覺得這對很多受害者真的很不公平\n邱議瑩等25人擬具\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.629 --> 00:13.871\n福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及�\n\n00:21.469 --> 00:44.846\n老闆,我想這幾天很多關於性侵害影片跟性剝削影片的事件應該都有看到在媒體上面那部長你知不知道這個網站這個網站是被號稱叫做台版的N號房的網站我不想把它的名字給唸出來\n\n00:48.561 --> 01:11.939\n你知道這個網站其實已經有非常非常多的受害人受害那甚至這其實就是一個犯罪的集散地部長知不知道我有聽說啦就從媒體這邊得到的訊息部長我跟你說齁這裡面很多非常高比例的影片其實都是被偷拍被誘拍的性侵\n\n01:13.200 --> 01:14.500\n邱議瑩等21人擬具〈再生醫療法草案〉案。\n\n01:38.769 --> 02:05.609\n武人在臺灣還連得上部長知不知道這我不是那麼清楚不是那麼清楚嗎對讓我告訴你現在這一個犯罪的集散地裡面都是犯罪的影片到目前為止到目前為止在臺灣我們還連得上還可以使用他還在運作部長你居然不知道我很意外\n\n02:08.089 --> 02:20.370\n我從媒體上面得知在網站曾經被封過但是後來他換了一個網域換了一個網域的話就部長你覺得這個犯罪的集散地應該要存在嗎?不應該\n\n02:21.072 --> 02:39.935\n那我們有沒有機制來處理這件事情?部長因為第一個它是一個國外的網站那所以如果要處理的話就必須要封網但是要封網的話我們現在只有兩種機制第一種機制的話就是有人檢舉之後那我們\n\n02:40.996 --> 02:56.375\n昨天訴發部其實說了喔他發了稿說如果收到衛福部命令的話他可以執行封網這封網大概但法律上面是叫做停止解析啦對不對說訴發部如果收到訴發部命令的話行政命令的話可以部長為什麼我們\n\n02:58.191 --> 03:24.291\n沒有發出這樣的行政命令因為我剛剛在跟委員解釋就是說我們目前的話封網有兩種的作業程序第一個的話就是要有一個行政處分行政處分他如果叫他下架他沒有下架的話我們才做封網那第二種的話封網的機制是剪掉剪掉他開始進行政府部長我們看看法條好不好部長我們看看法條好不好我先跟部長我今天一些媒體在\n\n03:24.867 --> 03:40.938\n其實昨天就有受害者再一次的來跟我們的影像處理中心提出申訴這個申訴的過程坦白說我等一下再說但提出申訴大家很希望衛福部就可以有明確的作為來停止包括封網\n\n03:42.403 --> 03:55.856\n但昨天當然衛福部做了但只做了說要求下架不然你看一下我們不管是在新千範犯罪防治法第13條或者是兒少性撥防治法第8條大概都有類似的條文\n\n03:57.116 --> 04:19.846\n如果我們知道這個網站上面有性侵害犯罪嫌疑的情勢主管機關應先行限制瀏覽或移除犯罪有關之網頁內容這是在性侵害防治法第13條而邵信波一樣有類似的條文我們的母法裡面是跟你說你可以去做先行限制瀏覽的工作的\n\n04:21.240 --> 04:48.362\n但為什麼...對!就是先行限制瀏覽嘛對不對?但我們現在沒有先行限制瀏覽啊剛剛部長說我們知道這上面有犯罪的情勢我們知道了按照條文衛福部就可以按照應該是要按照這個母法就可以執行限制瀏覽或直接移除犯罪相關的網頁資料這是母法寫的\n\n04:50.472 --> 05:12.021\n但我知道現在我們的問題現在問題是什麼下一頁我們在這裡面施行細則訂了一個前提說一定要我聯絡不到這個網路業者或者是我要求他下架他不願意下架我才可以做出即時的強制但這不是母法寫的這是施行細則啊部長我們現在是自己用施行細則把我們的手腳給綁住了\n\n05:20.134 --> 05:41.233\n武法裡面明明就有說你知道這個網站上面有犯罪嫌疑的事實我們就可以做啊武法是這樣寫的啊所以部長不要怪到武法啊現在是施行細則把自己手腳綁住了設了前提你一定要\n\n05:42.554 --> 06:10.600\n通知你我若通知得到或者是他可以下架一支影片的話那我就不能夠對他做整個網站的強制處分不然我要跟你說現在這些業者包括剛才講的這個台版N號房業者他就是這樣幹他有十幾萬支影片你叫我下架那一支我就下架那一支我用下架一支來把我十幾萬支的影片繼續運作繼續可以被瀏覽現在他就是這樣幹\n\n06:13.035 --> 06:41.987\n所以你今天叫他下架那一支影片他說好我願意可是為什麼他這一套可以規避是因為我們自己定的事情細則把手腳綁住了你反而沒有辦法執行我們母法原本的意旨啊回到剛剛母法部長這個母法就是你可以做啊你知道上面知有性侵害犯罪嫌疑情勢應先行限制瀏覽啊\n\n06:45.239 --> 07:10.284\n是這個意思吧?這邊的所謂的限制瀏覽跟移除的話就是我們一般來講的下架那我們也沒有限制瀏覽啊我們現在請問昨天那一位受害者他檢舉了以後我們有限制瀏覽嗎?現在有兩個概念我們必須要理清一個是對個別的影片\n\n07:11.243 --> 07:38.999\n審判限制就下架。另外一個是對整個網站的等於就是要讓他無法接觸。部長,你這樣講是不通的。我們是在這13條跟第8條裡面,你用剛才定的施行細則,你剛才想寫的強制處置就是封網的其中一種方式。如果你這樣解釋第13條跟第8條的話,那你也根本就沒有權利可以封網。你現在窄化的解釋又是再一次捆綁了自己的手腳。\n\n07:39.919 --> 08:08.056\n你剛才這個解釋是不通的如果按照你剛才解釋這只有針對單支影片的話那我們根本行政就不能夠封網可是你剛才一開始的時候明明就是說行政上面是可以封網的是我們自己在施行細則設了剛剛那個前提沒有這兩個狀況的確還是不一樣啊比方說我們在LINE我們經常在用LINE嘛對不對在LINE我今天就跟你討論有人上傳了一個兒少的這種設計我知道單支影片你可以處理但我現在問你是說\n\n08:08.556 --> 08:25.807\n但是我不能封網啊我沒有辦法把整個LINE封掉啊你當然沒有辦法但我今天問題是今天這個網站因為LINE不是所有都犯罪嘛但是現在剛剛這個網站上犯罪的比例這麼高都是性侵害的影片未成年的影片你剛才說它不該存在嘛\n\n08:26.447 --> 08:44.659\n對,所以現在是兩個不同的狀況,一個是所謂的下架,是對個別影片的下架。我們上面寫先行限制瀏覽,其實就是現在我們在說的停止解析嘛。今天封網我也不是把你整個抄了,而是我就是停止解析,讓你在台灣連不上嘛。這就是先行限制瀏覽嘛。\n\n08:45.580 --> 09:07.671\n所以我今天讓這整個網站被停止解析其實是跟你條文裡面的意旨是相符的啊是你現在一直在限制載化你這個法律上面你的工具你一直在載化工具然後說我沒有辦法其實法條上面就是讓你知道你應先行限制瀏覽這個某部分在網站上面就停止解析就是封網的意思啊\n\n09:08.915 --> 09:33.605\n那如果是這樣子的話這個是大家的公式因為所有的施行細則的通過跟修正的話都還是要到院裡面那立法院裡面來部長我當然希望我們母法接下來因為很多委員提出可以修法加重罰則這個之後大家會處理可是現在就這個封網上面的執行其實是在我們施行細則裡面把自己手腳綁住這是第一點\n\n09:34.605 --> 09:47.255\n我要跟部長說第二點其實我們現在很荒謬都要受害者自己去檢舉以剛剛這個台版N號房的例子裡面對不起喔你要怎麼檢舉你還要付費先成為會員你要檢舉他我還要花一個很大的錢也許幾萬塊付費成為會員進到裡面以後我才可以取證截圖然後去\n\n10:00.239 --> 10:18.357\n送到影像處理中心。」重點是什麼?我可能第一次做了這件事情以後下一次這個業者再把我的影片上傳一次我這個受害者或這個受害者他還要重複的流程再做一次他還要再一次成為付費的會員再一次想盡辦法上去\n\n10:19.534 --> 10:41.017\n然後截圖取證才能夠再做一次部長你覺得不荒謬嗎這的確有問題這樣子不過我跟委員報告我在這邊順便就等於說跟媒體這方面做一個宣示所有的你在瀏覽這種社群網站我們都可以追蹤的到\n\n10:42.369 --> 11:05.529\n所以你要成為他的會員有哪一天你就可能會被我們追蹤到這技術上面是可行的不是不然你可以這樣宣示那大家期待看到你把這個事情可以做給該制裁的人必須制裁他嘛現在我們整套的法律制度裡面非常非常依賴受害者自己檢舉而且你還要自己取證喔而且你不取證\n\n11:06.229 --> 11:22.550\n對不起可能還不受理喔我們這個方法非常無法去處理集團式的性侵害影片的犯罪讓我把這個講完第二點是我們準備要做一個事情就是主動去搜尋\n\n11:24.032 --> 11:27.653\n邱議瑩等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案案案件事件事件事件事件事件事件事件\n\n11:41.678 --> 12:03.905\n因為他是在國外的部長我跟你說我知道我們把它封以後他可能還會再換網域我知道但是對不起你換網域一次你還是有他的成本我能夠封你兩次為什麼不能封你一百次只要你是同樣的內容同樣的網站為什麼不能封你一百次所以就是牽涉到我剛剛講的第二點我們必須能夠主動去搜尋不必等人家來解決\n\n12:04.645 --> 12:33.219\n我們現在都是要等人家來檢舉可是你要主動搜尋我們要有一些包括資料庫等等的建立我們才知道這個影片之前其實我們已經處理過了或哪些是在我們處理的範圍裡面這些有一些相關的軟硬體要建置這部分部長我覺得我們應該把配套提出來好不好兩個禮拜內可不可以提出這個配套我不敢講因為這必須要跟書法部再來做一些討論我知道這個技術是可行的\n\n12:33.779 --> 13:01.930\n但是實際上要怎麼樣做?那個預算要怎麼樣來編?不然我時間沒了,但我最後要說我覺得我們法律上面是有給你們授權的不要再用施行細則不要再用執法把自己的手腳給綁起來變成我們很難作為我昨天聯絡了一整天都跟我說我沒辦法結果法條翻出來明明母法就有給你這個權利是我們在執法跟施行細則限制了自己我覺得這對很多受害者真的很不公平\n\n13:02.745 --> 13:02.845\n邱議瑩等25人擬具\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.629,"end":13.871,"text":"福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及�"},{"start":21.469,"end":44.846,"text":"老闆,我想這幾天很多關於性侵害影片跟性剝削影片的事件應該都有看到在媒體上面那部長你知不知道這個網站這個網站是被號稱叫做台版的N號房的網站我不想把它的名字給唸出來"},{"start":48.561,"end":71.939,"text":"你知道這個網站其實已經有非常非常多的受害人受害那甚至這其實就是一個犯罪的集散地部長知不知道我有聽說啦就從媒體這邊得到的訊息部長我跟你說齁這裡面很多非常高比例的影片其實都是被偷拍被誘拍的性侵"},{"start":73.2,"end":74.5,"text":"邱議瑩等21人擬具〈再生醫療法草案〉案。"},{"start":98.769,"end":125.609,"text":"武人在臺灣還連得上部長知不知道這我不是那麼清楚不是那麼清楚嗎對讓我告訴你現在這一個犯罪的集散地裡面都是犯罪的影片到目前為止到目前為止在臺灣我們還連得上還可以使用他還在運作部長你居然不知道我很意外"},{"start":128.089,"end":140.37,"text":"我從媒體上面得知在網站曾經被封過但是後來他換了一個網域換了一個網域的話就部長你覺得這個犯罪的集散地應該要存在嗎?不應該"},{"start":141.072,"end":159.935,"text":"那我們有沒有機制來處理這件事情?部長因為第一個它是一個國外的網站那所以如果要處理的話就必須要封網但是要封網的話我們現在只有兩種機制第一種機制的話就是有人檢舉之後那我們"},{"start":160.996,"end":176.375,"text":"昨天訴發部其實說了喔他發了稿說如果收到衛福部命令的話他可以執行封網這封網大概但法律上面是叫做停止解析啦對不對說訴發部如果收到訴發部命令的話行政命令的話可以部長為什麼我們"},{"start":178.191,"end":204.291,"text":"沒有發出這樣的行政命令因為我剛剛在跟委員解釋就是說我們目前的話封網有兩種的作業程序第一個的話就是要有一個行政處分行政處分他如果叫他下架他沒有下架的話我們才做封網那第二種的話封網的機制是剪掉剪掉他開始進行政府部長我們看看法條好不好部長我們看看法條好不好我先跟部長我今天一些媒體在"},{"start":204.867,"end":220.938,"text":"其實昨天就有受害者再一次的來跟我們的影像處理中心提出申訴這個申訴的過程坦白說我等一下再說但提出申訴大家很希望衛福部就可以有明確的作為來停止包括封網"},{"start":222.403,"end":235.856,"text":"但昨天當然衛福部做了但只做了說要求下架不然你看一下我們不管是在新千範犯罪防治法第13條或者是兒少性撥防治法第8條大概都有類似的條文"},{"start":237.116,"end":259.846,"text":"如果我們知道這個網站上面有性侵害犯罪嫌疑的情勢主管機關應先行限制瀏覽或移除犯罪有關之網頁內容這是在性侵害防治法第13條而邵信波一樣有類似的條文我們的母法裡面是跟你說你可以去做先行限制瀏覽的工作的"},{"start":261.24,"end":288.362,"text":"但為什麼...對!就是先行限制瀏覽嘛對不對?但我們現在沒有先行限制瀏覽啊剛剛部長說我們知道這上面有犯罪的情勢我們知道了按照條文衛福部就可以按照應該是要按照這個母法就可以執行限制瀏覽或直接移除犯罪相關的網頁資料這是母法寫的"},{"start":290.472,"end":312.021,"text":"但我知道現在我們的問題現在問題是什麼下一頁我們在這裡面施行細則訂了一個前提說一定要我聯絡不到這個網路業者或者是我要求他下架他不願意下架我才可以做出即時的強制但這不是母法寫的這是施行細則啊部長我們現在是自己用施行細則把我們的手腳給綁住了"},{"start":320.134,"end":341.233,"text":"武法裡面明明就有說你知道這個網站上面有犯罪嫌疑的事實我們就可以做啊武法是這樣寫的啊所以部長不要怪到武法啊現在是施行細則把自己手腳綁住了設了前提你一定要"},{"start":342.554,"end":370.6,"text":"通知你我若通知得到或者是他可以下架一支影片的話那我就不能夠對他做整個網站的強制處分不然我要跟你說現在這些業者包括剛才講的這個台版N號房業者他就是這樣幹他有十幾萬支影片你叫我下架那一支我就下架那一支我用下架一支來把我十幾萬支的影片繼續運作繼續可以被瀏覽現在他就是這樣幹"},{"start":373.035,"end":401.987,"text":"所以你今天叫他下架那一支影片他說好我願意可是為什麼他這一套可以規避是因為我們自己定的事情細則把手腳綁住了你反而沒有辦法執行我們母法原本的意旨啊回到剛剛母法部長這個母法就是你可以做啊你知道上面知有性侵害犯罪嫌疑情勢應先行限制瀏覽啊"},{"start":405.239,"end":430.284,"text":"是這個意思吧?這邊的所謂的限制瀏覽跟移除的話就是我們一般來講的下架那我們也沒有限制瀏覽啊我們現在請問昨天那一位受害者他檢舉了以後我們有限制瀏覽嗎?現在有兩個概念我們必須要理清一個是對個別的影片"},{"start":431.243,"end":458.999,"text":"審判限制就下架。另外一個是對整個網站的等於就是要讓他無法接觸。部長,你這樣講是不通的。我們是在這13條跟第8條裡面,你用剛才定的施行細則,你剛才想寫的強制處置就是封網的其中一種方式。如果你這樣解釋第13條跟第8條的話,那你也根本就沒有權利可以封網。你現在窄化的解釋又是再一次捆綁了自己的手腳。"},{"start":459.919,"end":488.056,"text":"你剛才這個解釋是不通的如果按照你剛才解釋這只有針對單支影片的話那我們根本行政就不能夠封網可是你剛才一開始的時候明明就是說行政上面是可以封網的是我們自己在施行細則設了剛剛那個前提沒有這兩個狀況的確還是不一樣啊比方說我們在LINE我們經常在用LINE嘛對不對在LINE我今天就跟你討論有人上傳了一個兒少的這種設計我知道單支影片你可以處理但我現在問你是說"},{"start":488.556,"end":505.807,"text":"但是我不能封網啊我沒有辦法把整個LINE封掉啊你當然沒有辦法但我今天問題是今天這個網站因為LINE不是所有都犯罪嘛但是現在剛剛這個網站上犯罪的比例這麼高都是性侵害的影片未成年的影片你剛才說它不該存在嘛"},{"start":506.447,"end":524.659,"text":"對,所以現在是兩個不同的狀況,一個是所謂的下架,是對個別影片的下架。我們上面寫先行限制瀏覽,其實就是現在我們在說的停止解析嘛。今天封網我也不是把你整個抄了,而是我就是停止解析,讓你在台灣連不上嘛。這就是先行限制瀏覽嘛。"},{"start":525.58,"end":547.671,"text":"所以我今天讓這整個網站被停止解析其實是跟你條文裡面的意旨是相符的啊是你現在一直在限制載化你這個法律上面你的工具你一直在載化工具然後說我沒有辦法其實法條上面就是讓你知道你應先行限制瀏覽這個某部分在網站上面就停止解析就是封網的意思啊"},{"start":548.915,"end":573.605,"text":"那如果是這樣子的話這個是大家的公式因為所有的施行細則的通過跟修正的話都還是要到院裡面那立法院裡面來部長我當然希望我們母法接下來因為很多委員提出可以修法加重罰則這個之後大家會處理可是現在就這個封網上面的執行其實是在我們施行細則裡面把自己手腳綁住這是第一點"},{"start":574.605,"end":587.255,"text":"我要跟部長說第二點其實我們現在很荒謬都要受害者自己去檢舉以剛剛這個台版N號房的例子裡面對不起喔你要怎麼檢舉你還要付費先成為會員你要檢舉他我還要花一個很大的錢也許幾萬塊付費成為會員進到裡面以後我才可以取證截圖然後去"},{"start":600.239,"end":618.357,"text":"送到影像處理中心。」重點是什麼?我可能第一次做了這件事情以後下一次這個業者再把我的影片上傳一次我這個受害者或這個受害者他還要重複的流程再做一次他還要再一次成為付費的會員再一次想盡辦法上去"},{"start":619.534,"end":641.017,"text":"然後截圖取證才能夠再做一次部長你覺得不荒謬嗎這的確有問題這樣子不過我跟委員報告我在這邊順便就等於說跟媒體這方面做一個宣示所有的你在瀏覽這種社群網站我們都可以追蹤的到"},{"start":642.369,"end":665.529,"text":"所以你要成為他的會員有哪一天你就可能會被我們追蹤到這技術上面是可行的不是 不然你可以這樣宣示那大家期待看到你把這個事情可以做給該制裁的人必須制裁他嘛現在我們整套的法律制度裡面非常非常依賴受害者自己檢舉而且你還要自己取證喔而且你不取證"},{"start":666.229,"end":682.55,"text":"對不起可能還不受理喔我們這個方法非常無法去處理集團式的性侵害影片的犯罪讓我把這個講完第二點是我們準備要做一個事情就是主動去搜尋"},{"start":684.032,"end":687.653,"text":"邱議瑩等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案案案件事件事件事件事件事件事件事件"},{"start":701.678,"end":723.905,"text":"因為他是在國外的部長我跟你說我知道我們把它封以後他可能還會再換網域我知道但是對不起你換網域一次你還是有他的成本我能夠封你兩次為什麼不能封你一百次只要你是同樣的內容同樣的網站為什麼不能封你一百次所以就是牽涉到我剛剛講的第二點我們必須能夠主動去搜尋不必等人家來解決"},{"start":724.645,"end":753.219,"text":"我們現在都是要等人家來檢舉可是你要主動搜尋我們要有一些包括資料庫等等的建立我們才知道這個影片之前其實我們已經處理過了或哪些是在我們處理的範圍裡面這些有一些相關的軟硬體要建置這部分部長我覺得我們應該把配套提出來好不好兩個禮拜內可不可以提出這個配套我不敢講因為這必須要跟書法部再來做一些討論我知道這個技術是可行的"},{"start":753.779,"end":781.93,"text":"但是實際上要怎麼樣做?那個預算要怎麼樣來編?不然我時間沒了,但我最後要說我覺得我們法律上面是有給你們授權的不要再用施行細則不要再用執法把自己的手腳給綁起來變成我們很難作為我昨天聯絡了一整天都跟我說我沒辦法結果法條翻出來明明母法就有給你這個權利是我們在執法跟施行細則限制了自己我覺得這對很多受害者真的很不公平"},{"start":782.745,"end":782.845,"text":"邱議瑩等25人擬具"}]}}}}