{"id":150994,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150994","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/871d5246fb87948ebc17547c4d5abcc72d211db49933aca9f8ba9b0039caa7a62ee13edf939dd7e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:14:24 - 12:25:12","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2024-04-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部列席就「『擴大幼兒教保公共化』成效及未來策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月10日及11日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-7"},"date":"2024-04-10","duration":648,"end_time":"2024-04-10T12:25:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-10T12:14:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1163,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時14分）謝謝召委安排今天的主題，有請次長。"],["主席：好，有請次長。"],["林次長明裕：謝謝委員、主席。"],["范委員雲：次長午安。關於今天這個很重要的主題公共化教保，我有三個問題，然後連帶的是三個訴求。第一個，比較簡單一點，我想次長應該知道我們公幼一直在找代課老師，原因就是因為幼兒園有師生比的規範，所以老師只要請假，那當然就要有代理嘛！可是次長，您知不知道公幼的代理老師時薪只有170元，低於我們的最低工資耶！這個次長知道嗎？"],["林次長明裕：謝謝委員反映這個問題，我們瞭解一下是不是真的有此況。"],["范委員雲：所以次長應該不知道為什麼會這樣，好，我跟你講，我研究了之後，是因為你們的教保服務人員條例施行細則第九條第五項，如果是三個月以上、未滿三個月，問題可能還少；但是有很多代理可能時間比較短，如果未滿一天的話……"],["林次長明裕：用時薪的概念算的。"],["范委員雲：你們的算法居然是把四萬多除以31天，他每天都在工作，再除以8小時，換算出時薪170塊，這個遠低於我們的國家基本工資。有幾個縣市比較有良心一點，還會以基本工資給；可是有一些縣市，譬如說我們看到的新北市，就照你們這個規定給，連基本工資都不到了，那不如去便利商店打工，我們對代理老師的要求絕對遠高於一般的基本工資嘛！"],["林次長明裕：報告委員，您所反映的問題，我們也是很重視，我們跟各縣市來瞭解。他除非是代理一天，那我們就用日薪計，再除以八個小時，很可能就出現委員你所關心的這個問題。"],["范委員雲：如果代理半天的話，他時薪不就170了嗎？這個問題怎麼解決，你們去研究好不好？我想就是要即刻檢討這個薪資標準，讓現實中不會出現比基本工資還低的國家苛刻公立托幼的代理教師，好嗎？"],["林次長明裕：好，謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：好，第二題，剛剛一直在吵說公不公共化的問題，我想應該很明確，就是次長不會反對我這麼說，準公共幼兒園不是公共化吧？"],["林次長明裕：目前我們還是承認它為我們合作的夥伴……"],["范委員雲：對，合作夥伴，但是不是……"],["林次長明裕：對，它是一個平價機制，但不是公共化。"],["范委員雲：您剛剛講的公共化的定義是政府補助，我是對你這個定義有個問號啦！因為照你這個講法，我們全國私立大學都是公共化了，因為它都拿政府的補助嘛！"],["林次長明裕：高教公共化，像我們副總統他也是認為說補貼私立大學學生的學費，仍然朝向高教公共化……"],["范委員雲：是朝向公共化，但還不是。"],["林次長明裕：對，但不是完全。"],["范委員雲：因為我個人在婦團的時候，我們當年是在推這個，就是幼教跟長照公共化，而公共化在國際上有三個核心的標準，第一個就是平價，要貴的話就不用公共化嘛！第二個、優質，第三個、普及化。因為你要平價，又要優質，又要普及化，私立的要營利就幾乎做不到……"],["林次長明裕：做不到。"],["范委員雲：私立如果市場做得到，政府不用介入嘛！因為私立做不到、市場做不到，所以政府才會介入。所以目前介入的標準，教育部其實是有定義的，你們自己定義也是如同你剛剛講，公立加非營利才是公共化，那從你們定義的公共化來看，到目前為止，這邊到111學年度，因為時間的緣故，比例我直接算給你，就是公共化幼兒園的占比其實還是只有三分之一，遠遠的低於我們的期待。","到目前為止，我們先不要看六都，我們就以全部來看，幼兒園的公私比仍然是3比7，剛剛林宜瑾召委所問的也是我所關切的，因為你們投入資源的所謂準公托，但是其實不是真的公共化，它遇到一個不夠優質的問題，所以才會有準公托所謂的退場機制嘛！我想我們先來看準公托要達到公共化難度真的很高，回到我們真正的公共化，教育部有沒有一個長程的目標？到底時間是怎麼樣，你們的具體作法是什麼？"],["林次長明裕：跟委員討論這一件事，對準公幼合作的夥伴們，基本上我們還是給予肯定，畢竟他們……"],["范委員雲：我們當然沒有不肯定他們嘛！要肯定啊！"],["林次長明裕：是，所以它也達到了半公共化的目的，減輕了家長的負擔，這方面我們是有一起在努力，那至於您說……"],["范委員雲：減輕家長負擔當然是好的，可是達到優質這個目標真的很難，我舉一些數字來看，因為你們的報告裡面，我真的覺得還是有點避重就輕，剛剛林宜瑾召委問的跟我現在要問的東西，就是你們報告中沒有看到怎麼做到優質，特別是準公托的部分，我們來看一下數字，根據調查，為什麼家長還是要去公幼？因為學費便宜、師資穩定、不會違規。六都裡面所謂準公幼的違規率是三分之一，當家長發現去準公幼看起來好像比較便宜、有補貼，可是經常沒有進用有教保人員資格的，還超收學生，巧立名目收費，連六都都有三分之一曾經發生違規被裁罰的紀錄。所以你要做到平價，他做到了；普及，這個快速普及；可是優質的話，難度非常的高。我想這是目前我們一個很大的問題，就是我們教保的理想不是只有平價跟普及，還要真正的優質。","我覺得你只有兩條路可以走，第一個，你提高真公幼，就是提高公幼跟非營利部分的比例；如果你做不到的話，你的準公幼2.0就應該要把關，然後處理剛剛林宜瑾委員講的退場的機制等等。你如果不走這兩條路，那我們教育部就失職了，就是用一個，你看很多委員已經搞不清楚，這到底各自代表什麼了。所以這兩條路中間，我覺得教育部要痛下決心，你到現在已經做一段時間了，因為如果就營利來說，你補貼他，他做不到優質，因為他畢竟就是要營利嘛，如果他不營利的話，他為什麼要開這家幼兒園？所以準公幼，我們看到的，有多少人來問準公幼的薪資沒有到兩萬八對不對，請問次長，如果他在準公幼，一個月的薪水領兩萬八，對不對？"],["林次長明裕：準公幼目前的薪資已經3萬1,200塊了。"],["范委員雲：對，所以還是有人在問這個問題，顯然現實上就是被東扣西扣，然後沒有符合教育部的規定。教保人員薪資被苛扣在準公幼是非常平常的，我們整理了準公幼現況的真實案例，有些地方像社工回捐一樣，要求繳回部分現金，機構先轉到教保員帳戶，然後年資一律從第一年起算，園方故意跟教保人員簽3年的約，3年後重新簽約年資歸零，還有的就不再給加班費，然後全勤獎金取消，有各式各樣的手法，還有用新地址立案，教保人員年資全歸零，還有的是勞健保低薪高報以符合主管機關，就是教育部、教育局的薪資規定，但實拿比較低的薪資，這部分亂象叢生，所以我們剛剛講的違規比例很可能只是低估。我想教育部有一個殺手鐧，你看一下衛福部怎麼對準公托，衛福部規定如果違反勞基法就請它退場，我想請問次長，教育部有沒有相關的規定？剛剛我舉例的很多作法都違反勞基法了。"],["林次長明裕：不管是哪一個單位，違反勞基法給付不完全，這是重大違規，當然不得列入我們的合作對象。"],["范委員雲：好，不得列入，那可不可以請教育部明文化？因為這一點衛福部有明文化，針對最需要去管理的，既然得到政府的相關補助，違反勞基法就太說不過去了，是不是可以把準公幼園所違反勞基法，納入相關的退場規範裡面呢？這部分次長可不可以答應呢？"],["林次長明裕：好，舉凡所有的違法措施，我們都不列入考慮。"],["范委員雲：好，那特別要講勞基法，因為我們看到很多例子……"],["林次長明裕：但是有一個比例原則，比如說老師上課遲到，這也是違規；交通車右轉，這也是違規……"],["范委員雲：次長，老師上課遲到不是我們勞基法要規範的範圍……"],["林次長明裕：沒有，我是說對我們來講，教保品質也是要有所維護的……"],["范委員雲：所以這個要講清楚，我剛剛給你看的，為什麼衛福部要特別舉違反勞動基準法？因為那是很重要的，很多就是因為違反勞基法才會出現虐童的這些事情，因為他不勝負荷。所以我想這部分你不要講說違反規定，規定太多了，可不可以清楚地把違反勞基法放在你的準公托相關的退場規定裡面？"],["林次長明裕：好，我們研議把它納入。"],["范委員雲：研議好嗎？因為我想這是最基本的、對家長的保障，因為這樣品質才能夠得到保障，否則大家還是去擠公托……"],["林次長明裕：這個要求是合理的。"],["范委員雲：對。所以我今天講的三個議題，您都提到可以，第一個我剛剛講的，即刻檢討公幼代理教師薪資低於基本工資，這是你們的規定下產生的結果，這部分應該很快，是不是可以一個月給我報告？第一點可以吧？"],["林次長明裕：公幼代理教師的薪資部分，那不是修法……"],["范委員雲：你要怎麼修可以多一點時間，但是報告可以給我吧？"],["林次長明裕：好，一個月。"],["范委員雲：好。第二個長程目標教保真公共化的占比，這點比較難，是不是兩、三個月之內給我一個規劃，好嗎？"],["林次長明裕：好，這個三個月我們可以……"],["范委員雲：好，三個月。第三個違反勞基法，這個應該也很快，一個月可以吧？"],["林次長明裕：是，我們會研議納入。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝次長，一起加油了。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，次長請回。我們接下來先處理臨時提案，今天有委員提出臨時提案總計有4案，我們先請議事人員宣讀。","一、","有鑑於教育部與衛福部於3月22日聯手稽查財團法人中華民國兒童福利聯盟文教基金會，教育部列出四項方面缺失，包含：內部控制、董事會、監察人與人事制度，並要求兒盟2週內提出檢討改善報告，但董事有應迴避而未迴避情事、監察人未遴選，皆屬於已發生，無法改善，建請教育部依照財團法人相關規定核處。","另請教育部針對兒盟所提改善情形，於1個月內向立法院教育文化委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：郭昱晴　　林宜瑾　　吳沛憶","二、","查過去兒少法實施過程中，校園中如發生符合兒少法通報要求的事件，依衛福部《兒童及少年保護通報與分級分類處理及調查辦法》，相關通報將會回歸校園進行行政調查。然因過去機制中沒有要求校園的調查結果要回送社政機關進行裁罰，故實務上即會發生就出現即便教育行政端對事件調查事實確認，也做出依教育法規的處分（記過、停聘、解聘、不續聘），但因為社政機關對相關調查毫無所悉，更遑論做出兒少權法的裁罰。最直接的影響，就是在社政體系經兒少法裁罰後能透過公告加害人姓名，讓一般的家長能藉由查詢來確認接觸孩子的成年人是否曾有兒少法裁罰紀錄，但在校園中即便加害者行為已經符合兒少法裁法的標準，也會因為社政機關未追蹤與裁罰，形成家長們在查詢時的盲區。","經過陳培瑜委員辦公室近半年與衛生福利部、教育部跨部會討論，目前相關標準作業流程雖已修正，然為使相關制度能夠更完整，也讓過往可能漏接的個案受到應有裁罰，爰要求教育部應對未來在校園事件中如何強化通報窗口對兒少法違法樣態認知敏感度，從源頭避免個案漏接進行研議，並配合衛福部之補救措施，請各地方教育機關將仍處行政罰法27條的三年時效內，未經社政機關裁罰的調查屬實校園兒少法通報個案提供社政單位重新檢視。前述精進作法與查證屬實但未經兒少法裁罰案件提供狀況之書面報告，請於三個月內提供立法院教育及文化委員會。","提案人：陳培瑜","連署人：郭昱晴　　吳沛憶　　林宜瑾　　林倩綺　　","三、","日前亞洲盃資格賽，台灣男籃隊爆發失能險保障不足的爭議，引起社會各界關注；但不僅只是國家代表隊選手與職員需要保險，每位職業運動、國家代表隊選手，都是從小培育、持續練習訓練才有今天的成就，因此，每位學生選手都該有保險保障。","現行《國民體育法》、體育署訂定之全國級賽事補助辦法，僅要求主辦單位投保公共意外責任保險、健康保險或傷害保險，投保健康保險或傷害保險者，每一被保險人之保險金額不得低於300萬元，常見的賽前熱身期間受傷沒有涵蓋在內，讓選手參賽時，承受受傷風險，一旦受傷將為自己、家庭帶來沉重的負擔，甚至因經濟不足以負荷可以進行即時治療及後續復健，影響學生選手的恢復狀況及未來發展，時有耳聞。","為提振我國體育實力並保障學生選手免於風險，請教育部體育署盤點各級學校學生選手參與全國性賽事的各項狀況，並參考美國NCAA的經驗，委託專家學者進行學生運動員設計適合保險商品之研究，於一個月內提出相關書面報告至本委員會。","提案人：何欣純　　陳培瑜","連署人：郭昱晴　　吳沛憶　　林宜瑾　　林倩綺","四、","幼兒園採「半班」編制（班級上僅1位教保服務人員，亦僅招收一半的幼兒人數）雖未違法，卻致使我國幼教品質堪憂。就讀幼兒園階段孩子們自理能力有限，教保服務人員須付出加倍心力看顧，無論學生數多寡，每班至少配置2位教保服務人員，才可能符合最基本的安全需求，否則若單一教保服務人員內急需如廁，又或者暫時離開班級，恐造成孩子們照顧空窗。","作為我國教育最高主管機關，教育部應督促並攜手地方政府勿採取半班編制，落實對幼兒園每班至少維持2名教保服務人員之基本配置。","提案人：林宜瑾","連署人：陳秀寳　　陳培瑜　　林倩綺"],["主席：請問提案人有沒有要補充說明？","我們先處理第1案，提案人郭昱晴要不要說明？"],["郭委員昱晴：這個部分如果教育部這邊沒有問題，應該就沒問題。"],["主席：好，教育部OK，第1案就照案通過。","第2案的提案人陳培瑜有沒有要補充說明？"],["陳委員培瑜：有跟教育部討論過，應該是可以依照這個配合，對嗎？教育部這邊應該沒有問題，可以照案通過。"],["林次長明裕：好，我們配合跟社政單位來聯絡。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝。"],["主席：好，那就沒問題，第2案照案通過。","第3案提案人有何欣純、陳培瑜，陳培瑜委員有沒有要補充說明？"],["陳委員培瑜：教育部好像有說對時間要修正，要不要請教育部先說明？"],["主席：我們請次長。"],["林次長明裕：我們是不是徵求委員同意？就是我們在由教育部主辦的全國性賽事的各項狀況，參考美國NCAA的經驗，委託專家學者進行學生運動員設計商業保險商品的研究，3個月內提出報告。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，從1個月改成3個月，對不對？"],["林次長明裕：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，可是我們還是要再次提醒一下，雖然何欣純委員沒有來，我們還是要補充，就是之前委託研究的部分都是固定跟單一大學合作，可是我們知道保險的部分真的非常專業，可能不是體育署可以全部承擔的，所以我們要再次建議，在必要的時候用招標委辦也是一個作法，那我們也會再持續提醒教育部，謝謝。"],["林次長明裕：好，這個我們來參考。"],["主席：好，第3案就修正通過。","第4案的提案人是本席，次長，有沒有問題？"],["林次長明裕：好，我們配合辦理。"],["主席：好，謝謝，第4案就照案通過。","我們臨時提案處理完畢，各提案如果有委員要補簽，請在這邊來補簽，然後議事人員會詳細登載在議事錄。","接下來繼續進行質詢，我們再來請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":320,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","范雲","李坤城","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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\"start\": 620.833, \"end\": 620.853, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,546 --> 00:00:05,287\n公幼一直在找待課老師\n\n2\n00:00:28,207 --> 00:00:28,227\n范雲議員\n\n3\n00:00:44,156 --> 00:01:07,237\n這個次長知道嗎?謝委員反映這個問題我們了解一下是不是真的有此況所以次長應該不知道為什麼會這樣我跟你講我研究了之後是因為你們的教保服務委員條例施行協議第9條第5項如果是3個月以上未滿3個月問題可能還少但是有很多代理可能時間比較短如果未滿一天的話你們的算法居然是把這個4萬多\n\n4\n00:01:09,019 --> 00:01:28,838\n除以31天他每天都在工作再除以8小時換算出一個時薪170塊的那這個遠低於我們的國家基本工資有幾個縣市比較有良心一點還會以基本工資給可是有一些縣市比如說我們看到的新北市就照你們這個規定給\n\n5\n00:01:30,179 --> 00:01:30,279\n主席\n\n6\n00:01:46,815 --> 00:02:11,796\n那我們就用日薪計那再除以8個小時很可能就出現委員你所關心的這個問題那如果代理半天的話那他時薪不就1百7了嗎那我想這個問題怎麼解決你們去研究好不好那我想就是要即刻檢討這個薪資標準讓現實中不會出現就是比基本工資還低的這個國家苛刻就是功力拖右的代理教師好嗎好謝謝委員\n\n7\n00:02:14,259 --> 00:02:26,489\n第二題,剛剛一直在炒這個公不公共化的問題那我想應該很明確就是社長不會反對我這麼說準公共幼兒園不是公共化吧?\n\n8\n00:02:27,677 --> 00:02:30,820\n目前我們還是承認他為我們合作的夥伴他是一個評價機制但不是公共化那您剛剛講了公共化的定義是政府補助我是對你這個定義有個問號因為照你這個講法我們全國私立大學都是公共化了因為他都拿政府的補助\n\n9\n00:02:47,637 --> 00:03:11,096\n高校公共化我們像我們副總統他也是認為說補貼私立大學學生的學費那仍然朝向高校公共化是朝向公共化但還不是那公共化因為我個人在副團的時候我們當年是在推就是這個幼教跟長照公共化那公共化就一個國際上有三個核心的標準\n\n10\n00:03:11,817 --> 00:03:12,017\n1.評價2.優質3.普及化\n\n11\n00:03:27,739 --> 00:03:50,374\n因為私立做不到市場做不到所以政府才會介入那所以從目前介入的標準教育部其實是有定義的你們自己定義也是如同你剛講公立加非營利才是公共化那從你們這個定義的公共化的你來看到到目前為止這邊到111學年度其實比例我有直接算給你因為時間的緣故\n\n12\n00:03:52,195 --> 00:04:09,122\n公共化幼兒園的佔比其實還是只有三分之一就是遠遠的低於我們的期待所以到目前為止我們先不要看六都我們就全部來看幼兒園的公司比仍然是3比7\n\n13\n00:04:10,623 --> 00:04:10,663\n主席\n\n14\n00:04:42,805 --> 00:05:02,302\n跟委員討論這一件事對準公幼這個合作的這個夥伴們我基本上我們還是給予肯定我們當然沒有不肯定他們嘛要肯定啊所以他也達到了一個半公共化的這個目的減輕了家長的負擔這方面我們是有一起在努力\n\n15\n00:05:02,662 --> 00:05:27,083\n減輕家長負擔當然是好的可是達到優質這個目標真的很難我舉一些數字來看因為你們的報告裡面我真的覺得還是有點避重就輕啦就是剛剛林怡瑾、昭緯問的跟我問的現在要問的東西就是你們報告中沒有看到怎麼做到優質特別是這個準公托的部分那我們來看一下數字\n\n16\n00:05:28,024 --> 00:05:46,209\n根據調查為什麼家長還是要去公幼因為學費便宜施肢穩定不會違規六都裡面公幼的所謂的準公幼的違規率是三分之一當家長發現說我去這個看起來好像比較便宜有補貼的可是呢經常沒有\n\n17\n00:05:46,789 --> 00:05:46,949\n主席范雲\n\n18\n00:06:12,682 --> 00:06:28,517\n不是只有評價跟普及還要真正的優質所以我覺得你只有兩條路可以走第一個你提高那個真公右就是公右跟非營利提高你如果做不到的話你這個準公右2.0就應該要把關然後處理剛剛林議員講的那個退場的機制等等你如果不走這兩條路那我們教育部就失職了\n\n19\n00:06:37,546 --> 00:07:04,684\n就是用一個你看很多我已經搞不清楚這都到底各自代表什麼了所以這兩條路中間我覺得就是說教育部要痛下決心你到現在已經做一段時間了因為如果就盈利你補貼他他做不到優質因為他畢竟就是要盈利嘛如果他不盈利的話他為什麼要開這家就是幼兒園所以準公幼我們看到的這邊有多少人來問就是說薪資沒有到兩萬八對不對\n\n20\n00:07:08,686 --> 00:07:14,231\n請問那個次長如果他在准公幼一個月薪水零兩萬八對不對\n\n21\n00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:21,063\n對,所以還是有人在問這個問題顯然現實上他基本上就是被東扣西扣然後沒有符合據說教育部的規定那教保人員薪資被苛扣在准公幼是非常平常的那我們整理了准公幼現況的真實案例\n\n22\n00:07:38,712 --> 00:07:52,638\n有些地方像社工回捐一樣：要求繳回部分現金：機構先轉到教保員賬戶：然後年資一律從第一年起算：然後呢就故意跟他簽三年的約：三年後重新簽約年資歸零：還有呢就不再給加班費：然後全勤獎勵取消\n\n23\n00:07:58,540 --> 00:08:18,614\n還有用新地址立案．保人員年資全歸零還有勞健保低薪高報以符合主管機關就是教育部教育局的薪資規定但時拿比較低的薪資所以這個亂象重生所以我們剛剛講的違規很可能只是低估那我想教育部有一個殺手鍵\n\n24\n00:08:20,876 --> 00:08:32,931\n你看一下衛福部怎麼對準公托如果違反勞基法就請他退場那我想請問次長教育部有沒有相關的規定剛剛很多做法都違反勞基法了嘛\n\n25\n00:08:33,373 --> 00:08:53,140\n不管是哪一個單位違反勞基法幾乎不完全這是重大違規當然不得列入我們合作對象好那不得列入那可不可以請教一部民文化因為衛福部這一點是有民文化那針對最需要去管理的既然得到政府的相關補助那違反勞基法就太說不過去了\n\n26\n00:08:56,121 --> 00:09:19,863\n是不是可以把准公幼原所違反勞基法納入相關的退場規範裡面呢?這個次長可不可以答應呢?好,舉凡所有的違法措施我們都不列入考慮啦好,那特別要講勞基法但是有一個比例的原則比如說那老師上課遲到他也是違規嘛交通車右轉這也是違規啦老師上課遲到\n\n27\n00:09:22,745 --> 00:09:49,266\n不是我們勞基法要規範的方式對我們來講對教保品質也是有所違物所以你這個要講清楚我剛剛給你看的為什麼衛福部要特別舉違反勞動基準法因為那個是很重要的嘛你很多就是因為違反勞基法才會出現虐童的這些事情嘛因為他不身負荷所以我想你這個部分不要講說違反規定規定太多了可不可以清楚把違反勞基法放在你的準公托相關的退場規定裡面\n\n28\n00:09:51,823 --> 00:10:15,577\n好我們嚴厲把他納入嚴厲好嗎因為我想這是最基本的對家長的保障因為這樣品質才能夠得到保障否則大家還是去擠公托最要求是合理的對所以我今天講的三個您都有提到可以第一個即刻檢討我剛剛講的公幼代理教師低於基本工資這個是你們的規定下產生的結果那第一個這個部分應該很快是不是可以一個月給我報告第一點可以吧\n\n29\n00:10:20,112 --> 00:10:20,853\n謝謝次長,一起加油\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4546\t5287\t公幼一直在找待課老師\n28207\t28227\t范雲議員\n44156\t67237\t這個次長知道嗎?謝委員反映這個問題我們了解一下是不是真的有此況所以次長應該不知道為什麼會這樣我跟你講我研究了之後是因為你們的教保服務委員條例施行協議第9條第5項如果是3個月以上未滿3個月問題可能還少但是有很多代理可能時間比較短如果未滿一天的話你們的算法居然是把這個4萬多\n69019\t88838\t除以31天他每天都在工作再除以8小時換算出一個時薪170塊的那這個遠低於我們的國家基本工資有幾個縣市比較有良心一點還會以基本工資給可是有一些縣市比如說我們看到的新北市就照你們這個規定給\n90179\t90279\t主席\n106815\t131796\t那我們就用日薪計那再除以8個小時很可能就出現委員你所關心的這個問題那如果代理半天的話那他時薪不就1百7了嗎那我想這個問題怎麼解決你們去研究好不好那我想就是要即刻檢討這個薪資標準讓現實中不會出現就是比基本工資還低的這個國家苛刻就是功力拖右的代理教師好嗎好 謝謝委員\n134259\t146489\t第二題,剛剛一直在炒這個公不公共化的問題那我想應該很明確就是社長不會反對我這麼說準公共幼兒園不是公共化吧?\n147677\t150820\t目前我們還是承認他為我們合作的夥伴他是一個評價機制但不是公共化那您剛剛講了公共化的定義是政府補助我是對你這個定義有個問號因為照你這個講法我們全國私立大學都是公共化了因為他都拿政府的補助\n167637\t191096\t高校公共化我們像我們副總統他也是認為說補貼私立大學學生的學費那仍然朝向高校公共化是朝向公共化但還不是那公共化因為我個人在副團的時候我們當年是在推就是這個幼教跟長照公共化那公共化就一個國際上有三個核心的標準\n191817\t192017\t1.評價2.優質3.普及化\n207739\t230374\t因為私立做不到市場做不到所以政府才會介入那所以從目前介入的標準教育部其實是有定義的你們自己定義也是如同你剛講公立加非營利才是公共化那從你們這個定義的公共化的你來看到到目前為止這邊到111學年度其實比例我有直接算給你因為時間的緣故\n232195\t249122\t公共化幼兒園的佔比其實還是只有三分之一就是遠遠的低於我們的期待所以到目前為止我們先不要看六都我們就全部來看幼兒園的公司比仍然是3比7\n250623\t250663\t主席\n282805\t302302\t跟委員討論這一件事對準公幼這個合作的這個夥伴們我基本上我們還是給予肯定我們當然沒有不肯定他們嘛要肯定啊所以他也達到了一個半公共化的這個目的減輕了家長的負擔這方面我們是有一起在努力\n302662\t327083\t減輕家長負擔當然是好的可是達到優質這個目標真的很難我舉一些數字來看因為你們的報告裡面我真的覺得還是有點避重就輕啦就是剛剛林怡瑾、昭緯問的跟我問的現在要問的東西就是你們報告中沒有看到怎麼做到優質特別是這個準公托的部分那我們來看一下數字\n328024\t346209\t根據調查為什麼家長還是要去公幼因為學費便宜施肢穩定不會違規六都裡面公幼的所謂的準公幼的違規率是三分之一當家長發現說我去這個看起來好像比較便宜有補貼的可是呢經常沒有\n346789\t346949\t主席范雲\n372682\t388517\t不是只有評價跟普及還要真正的優質所以我覺得你只有兩條路可以走第一個你提高那個真公右就是公右跟非營利提高你如果做不到的話你這個準公右2.0就應該要把關然後處理剛剛林議員講的那個退場的機制等等你如果不走這兩條路那我們教育部就失職了\n397546\t424684\t就是用一個你看很多我已經搞不清楚這都到底各自代表什麼了所以這兩條路中間我覺得就是說教育部要痛下決心你到現在已經做一段時間了因為如果就盈利你補貼他他做不到優質因為他畢竟就是要盈利嘛如果他不盈利的話他為什麼要開這家就是幼兒園所以準公幼我們看到的這邊有多少人來問就是說薪資沒有到兩萬八對不對\n428686\t434231\t請問那個次長 如果他在 准公幼一個月薪水零兩萬八對不對\n435560\t441063\t對,所以還是有人在問這個問題顯然現實上他基本上就是被東扣西扣然後沒有符合據說教育部的規定那教保人員薪資被苛扣在准公幼是非常平常的那我們整理了准公幼現況的真實案例\n458712\t472638\t有些地方像社工回捐一樣：要求繳回部分現金：機構先轉到教保員賬戶：然後年資一律從第一年起算：然後呢就故意跟他簽三年的約：三年後重新簽約年資歸零：還有呢就不再給加班費：然後全勤獎勵取消\n478540\t498614\t還有用新地址立案．保人員年資全歸零還有勞健保低薪高報以符合主管機關就是教育部教育局的薪資規定但時拿比較低的薪資所以這個亂象重生所以我們剛剛講的違規很可能只是低估那我想教育部有一個殺手鍵\n500876\t512931\t你看一下衛福部怎麼對準公托如果違反勞基法就請他退場那我想請問次長教育部有沒有相關的規定剛剛很多做法都違反勞基法了嘛\n513373\t533140\t不管是哪一個單位違反勞基法幾乎不完全這是重大違規當然不得列入我們合作對象好 那不得列入那可不可以請教一部民文化因為衛福部這一點是有民文化那針對最需要去管理的既然得到政府的相關補助那違反勞基法就太說不過去了\n536121\t559863\t是不是可以把准公幼原所違反勞基法納入相關的退場規範裡面呢?這個次長可不可以答應呢?好,舉凡所有的違法措施我們都不列入考慮啦好,那特別要講勞基法但是有一個比例的原則比如說那老師上課遲到他也是違規嘛交通車右轉這也是違規啦老師上課遲到\n562745\t589266\t不是我們勞基法要規範的方式對我們來講對教保品質也是有所違物所以你這個要講清楚我剛剛給你看的為什麼衛福部要特別舉違反勞動基準法因為那個是很重要的嘛你很多就是因為違反勞基法才會出現虐童的這些事情嘛因為他不身負荷所以我想你這個部分不要講說違反規定規定太多了可不可以清楚把違反勞基法放在你的準公托相關的退場規定裡面\n591823\t615577\t好 我們嚴厲把他納入嚴厲好嗎 因為我想這是最基本的對家長的保障因為這樣品質才能夠得到保障否則大家還是去擠公托最要求是合理的對 所以我今天講的三個您都有提到可以第一個 即刻檢討我剛剛講的公幼代理教師低於基本工資這個是你們的規定下產生的結果那第一個這個部分應該很快是不是可以一個月給我報告第一點可以吧\n620112\t620853\t謝謝次長,一起加油\n","txt":"公幼一直在找待課老師\n范雲議員\n這個次長知道嗎?謝委員反映這個問題我們了解一下是不是真的有此況所以次長應該不知道為什麼會這樣我跟你講我研究了之後是因為你們的教保服務委員條例施行協議第9條第5項如果是3個月以上未滿3個月問題可能還少但是有很多代理可能時間比較短如果未滿一天的話你們的算法居然是把這個4萬多\n除以31天他每天都在工作再除以8小時換算出一個時薪170塊的那這個遠低於我們的國家基本工資有幾個縣市比較有良心一點還會以基本工資給可是有一些縣市比如說我們看到的新北市就照你們這個規定給\n主席\n那我們就用日薪計那再除以8個小時很可能就出現委員你所關心的這個問題那如果代理半天的話那他時薪不就1百7了嗎那我想這個問題怎麼解決你們去研究好不好那我想就是要即刻檢討這個薪資標準讓現實中不會出現就是比基本工資還低的這個國家苛刻就是功力拖右的代理教師好嗎好 謝謝委員\n第二題,剛剛一直在炒這個公不公共化的問題那我想應該很明確就是社長不會反對我這麼說準公共幼兒園不是公共化吧?\n目前我們還是承認他為我們合作的夥伴他是一個評價機制但不是公共化那您剛剛講了公共化的定義是政府補助我是對你這個定義有個問號因為照你這個講法我們全國私立大學都是公共化了因為他都拿政府的補助\n高校公共化我們像我們副總統他也是認為說補貼私立大學學生的學費那仍然朝向高校公共化是朝向公共化但還不是那公共化因為我個人在副團的時候我們當年是在推就是這個幼教跟長照公共化那公共化就一個國際上有三個核心的標準\n1.評價2.優質3.普及化\n因為私立做不到市場做不到所以政府才會介入那所以從目前介入的標準教育部其實是有定義的你們自己定義也是如同你剛講公立加非營利才是公共化那從你們這個定義的公共化的你來看到到目前為止這邊到111學年度其實比例我有直接算給你因為時間的緣故\n公共化幼兒園的佔比其實還是只有三分之一就是遠遠的低於我們的期待所以到目前為止我們先不要看六都我們就全部來看幼兒園的公司比仍然是3比7\n主席\n跟委員討論這一件事對準公幼這個合作的這個夥伴們我基本上我們還是給予肯定我們當然沒有不肯定他們嘛要肯定啊所以他也達到了一個半公共化的這個目的減輕了家長的負擔這方面我們是有一起在努力\n減輕家長負擔當然是好的可是達到優質這個目標真的很難我舉一些數字來看因為你們的報告裡面我真的覺得還是有點避重就輕啦就是剛剛林怡瑾、昭緯問的跟我問的現在要問的東西就是你們報告中沒有看到怎麼做到優質特別是這個準公托的部分那我們來看一下數字\n根據調查為什麼家長還是要去公幼因為學費便宜施肢穩定不會違規六都裡面公幼的所謂的準公幼的違規率是三分之一當家長發現說我去這個看起來好像比較便宜有補貼的可是呢經常沒有\n主席范雲\n不是只有評價跟普及還要真正的優質所以我覺得你只有兩條路可以走第一個你提高那個真公右就是公右跟非營利提高你如果做不到的話你這個準公右2.0就應該要把關然後處理剛剛林議員講的那個退場的機制等等你如果不走這兩條路那我們教育部就失職了\n就是用一個你看很多我已經搞不清楚這都到底各自代表什麼了所以這兩條路中間我覺得就是說教育部要痛下決心你到現在已經做一段時間了因為如果就盈利你補貼他他做不到優質因為他畢竟就是要盈利嘛如果他不盈利的話他為什麼要開這家就是幼兒園所以準公幼我們看到的這邊有多少人來問就是說薪資沒有到兩萬八對不對\n請問那個次長 如果他在 准公幼一個月薪水零兩萬八對不對\n對,所以還是有人在問這個問題顯然現實上他基本上就是被東扣西扣然後沒有符合據說教育部的規定那教保人員薪資被苛扣在准公幼是非常平常的那我們整理了准公幼現況的真實案例\n有些地方像社工回捐一樣：要求繳回部分現金：機構先轉到教保員賬戶：然後年資一律從第一年起算：然後呢就故意跟他簽三年的約：三年後重新簽約年資歸零：還有呢就不再給加班費：然後全勤獎勵取消\n還有用新地址立案．保人員年資全歸零還有勞健保低薪高報以符合主管機關就是教育部教育局的薪資規定但時拿比較低的薪資所以這個亂象重生所以我們剛剛講的違規很可能只是低估那我想教育部有一個殺手鍵\n你看一下衛福部怎麼對準公托如果違反勞基法就請他退場那我想請問次長教育部有沒有相關的規定剛剛很多做法都違反勞基法了嘛\n不管是哪一個單位違反勞基法幾乎不完全這是重大違規當然不得列入我們合作對象好 那不得列入那可不可以請教一部民文化因為衛福部這一點是有民文化那針對最需要去管理的既然得到政府的相關補助那違反勞基法就太說不過去了\n是不是可以把准公幼原所違反勞基法納入相關的退場規範裡面呢?這個次長可不可以答應呢?好,舉凡所有的違法措施我們都不列入考慮啦好,那特別要講勞基法但是有一個比例的原則比如說那老師上課遲到他也是違規嘛交通車右轉這也是違規啦老師上課遲到\n不是我們勞基法要規範的方式對我們來講對教保品質也是有所違物所以你這個要講清楚我剛剛給你看的為什麼衛福部要特別舉違反勞動基準法因為那個是很重要的嘛你很多就是因為違反勞基法才會出現虐童的這些事情嘛因為他不身負荷所以我想你這個部分不要講說違反規定規定太多了可不可以清楚把違反勞基法放在你的準公托相關的退場規定裡面\n好 我們嚴厲把他納入嚴厲好嗎 因為我想這是最基本的對家長的保障因為這樣品質才能夠得到保障否則大家還是去擠公托最要求是合理的對 所以我今天講的三個您都有提到可以第一個 即刻檢討我剛剛講的公幼代理教師低於基本工資這個是你們的規定下產生的結果那第一個這個部分應該很快是不是可以一個月給我報告第一點可以吧\n謝謝次長,一起加油\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.546 --> 00:05.287\n公幼一直在找待課老師\n\n00:28.207 --> 00:28.227\n范雲議員\n\n00:44.156 --> 01:07.237\n這個次長知道嗎?謝委員反映這個問題我們了解一下是不是真的有此況所以次長應該不知道為什麼會這樣我跟你講我研究了之後是因為你們的教保服務委員條例施行協議第9條第5項如果是3個月以上未滿3個月問題可能還少但是有很多代理可能時間比較短如果未滿一天的話你們的算法居然是把這個4萬多\n\n01:09.019 --> 01:28.838\n除以31天他每天都在工作再除以8小時換算出一個時薪170塊的那這個遠低於我們的國家基本工資有幾個縣市比較有良心一點還會以基本工資給可是有一些縣市比如說我們看到的新北市就照你們這個規定給\n\n01:30.179 --> 01:30.279\n主席\n\n01:46.815 --> 02:11.796\n那我們就用日薪計那再除以8個小時很可能就出現委員你所關心的這個問題那如果代理半天的話那他時薪不就1百7了嗎那我想這個問題怎麼解決你們去研究好不好那我想就是要即刻檢討這個薪資標準讓現實中不會出現就是比基本工資還低的這個國家苛刻就是功力拖右的代理教師好嗎好謝謝委員\n\n02:14.259 --> 02:26.489\n第二題,剛剛一直在炒這個公不公共化的問題那我想應該很明確就是社長不會反對我這麼說準公共幼兒園不是公共化吧?\n\n02:27.677 --> 02:30.820\n目前我們還是承認他為我們合作的夥伴他是一個評價機制但不是公共化那您剛剛講了公共化的定義是政府補助我是對你這個定義有個問號因為照你這個講法我們全國私立大學都是公共化了因為他都拿政府的補助\n\n02:47.637 --> 03:11.096\n高校公共化我們像我們副總統他也是認為說補貼私立大學學生的學費那仍然朝向高校公共化是朝向公共化但還不是那公共化因為我個人在副團的時候我們當年是在推就是這個幼教跟長照公共化那公共化就一個國際上有三個核心的標準\n\n03:11.817 --> 03:12.017\n1.評價2.優質3.普及化\n\n03:27.739 --> 03:50.374\n因為私立做不到市場做不到所以政府才會介入那所以從目前介入的標準教育部其實是有定義的你們自己定義也是如同你剛講公立加非營利才是公共化那從你們這個定義的公共化的你來看到到目前為止這邊到111學年度其實比例我有直接算給你因為時間的緣故\n\n03:52.195 --> 04:09.122\n公共化幼兒園的佔比其實還是只有三分之一就是遠遠的低於我們的期待所以到目前為止我們先不要看六都我們就全部來看幼兒園的公司比仍然是3比7\n\n04:10.623 --> 04:10.663\n主席\n\n04:42.805 --> 05:02.302\n跟委員討論這一件事對準公幼這個合作的這個夥伴們我基本上我們還是給予肯定我們當然沒有不肯定他們嘛要肯定啊所以他也達到了一個半公共化的這個目的減輕了家長的負擔這方面我們是有一起在努力\n\n05:02.662 --> 05:27.083\n減輕家長負擔當然是好的可是達到優質這個目標真的很難我舉一些數字來看因為你們的報告裡面我真的覺得還是有點避重就輕啦就是剛剛林怡瑾、昭緯問的跟我問的現在要問的東西就是你們報告中沒有看到怎麼做到優質特別是這個準公托的部分那我們來看一下數字\n\n05:28.024 --> 05:46.209\n根據調查為什麼家長還是要去公幼因為學費便宜施肢穩定不會違規六都裡面公幼的所謂的準公幼的違規率是三分之一當家長發現說我去這個看起來好像比較便宜有補貼的可是呢經常沒有\n\n05:46.789 --> 05:46.949\n主席范雲\n\n06:12.682 --> 06:28.517\n不是只有評價跟普及還要真正的優質所以我覺得你只有兩條路可以走第一個你提高那個真公右就是公右跟非營利提高你如果做不到的話你這個準公右2.0就應該要把關然後處理剛剛林議員講的那個退場的機制等等你如果不走這兩條路那我們教育部就失職了\n\n06:37.546 --> 07:04.684\n就是用一個你看很多我已經搞不清楚這都到底各自代表什麼了所以這兩條路中間我覺得就是說教育部要痛下決心你到現在已經做一段時間了因為如果就盈利你補貼他他做不到優質因為他畢竟就是要盈利嘛如果他不盈利的話他為什麼要開這家就是幼兒園所以準公幼我們看到的這邊有多少人來問就是說薪資沒有到兩萬八對不對\n\n07:08.686 --> 07:14.231\n請問那個次長如果他在准公幼一個月薪水零兩萬八對不對\n\n07:15.560 --> 07:21.063\n對,所以還是有人在問這個問題顯然現實上他基本上就是被東扣西扣然後沒有符合據說教育部的規定那教保人員薪資被苛扣在准公幼是非常平常的那我們整理了准公幼現況的真實案例\n\n07:38.712 --> 07:52.638\n有些地方像社工回捐一樣：要求繳回部分現金：機構先轉到教保員賬戶：然後年資一律從第一年起算：然後呢就故意跟他簽三年的約：三年後重新簽約年資歸零：還有呢就不再給加班費：然後全勤獎勵取消\n\n07:58.540 --> 08:18.614\n還有用新地址立案．保人員年資全歸零還有勞健保低薪高報以符合主管機關就是教育部教育局的薪資規定但時拿比較低的薪資所以這個亂象重生所以我們剛剛講的違規很可能只是低估那我想教育部有一個殺手鍵\n\n08:20.876 --> 08:32.931\n你看一下衛福部怎麼對準公托如果違反勞基法就請他退場那我想請問次長教育部有沒有相關的規定剛剛很多做法都違反勞基法了嘛\n\n08:33.373 --> 08:53.140\n不管是哪一個單位違反勞基法幾乎不完全這是重大違規當然不得列入我們合作對象好那不得列入那可不可以請教一部民文化因為衛福部這一點是有民文化那針對最需要去管理的既然得到政府的相關補助那違反勞基法就太說不過去了\n\n08:56.121 --> 09:19.863\n是不是可以把准公幼原所違反勞基法納入相關的退場規範裡面呢?這個次長可不可以答應呢?好,舉凡所有的違法措施我們都不列入考慮啦好,那特別要講勞基法但是有一個比例的原則比如說那老師上課遲到他也是違規嘛交通車右轉這也是違規啦老師上課遲到\n\n09:22.745 --> 09:49.266\n不是我們勞基法要規範的方式對我們來講對教保品質也是有所違物所以你這個要講清楚我剛剛給你看的為什麼衛福部要特別舉違反勞動基準法因為那個是很重要的嘛你很多就是因為違反勞基法才會出現虐童的這些事情嘛因為他不身負荷所以我想你這個部分不要講說違反規定規定太多了可不可以清楚把違反勞基法放在你的準公托相關的退場規定裡面\n\n09:51.823 --> 10:15.577\n好我們嚴厲把他納入嚴厲好嗎因為我想這是最基本的對家長的保障因為這樣品質才能夠得到保障否則大家還是去擠公托最要求是合理的對所以我今天講的三個您都有提到可以第一個即刻檢討我剛剛講的公幼代理教師低於基本工資這個是你們的規定下產生的結果那第一個這個部分應該很快是不是可以一個月給我報告第一點可以吧\n\n10:20.112 --> 10:20.853\n謝謝次長,一起加油\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.546,"end":5.287,"text":"公幼一直在找待課老師"},{"start":28.207,"end":28.227,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":44.156,"end":67.237,"text":"這個次長知道嗎?謝委員反映這個問題我們了解一下是不是真的有此況所以次長應該不知道為什麼會這樣我跟你講我研究了之後是因為你們的教保服務委員條例施行協議第9條第5項如果是3個月以上未滿3個月問題可能還少但是有很多代理可能時間比較短如果未滿一天的話你們的算法居然是把這個4萬多"},{"start":69.019,"end":88.838,"text":"除以31天他每天都在工作再除以8小時換算出一個時薪170塊的那這個遠低於我們的國家基本工資有幾個縣市比較有良心一點還會以基本工資給可是有一些縣市比如說我們看到的新北市就照你們這個規定給"},{"start":90.179,"end":90.279,"text":"主席"},{"start":106.815,"end":131.796,"text":"那我們就用日薪計那再除以8個小時很可能就出現委員你所關心的這個問題那如果代理半天的話那他時薪不就1百7了嗎那我想這個問題怎麼解決你們去研究好不好那我想就是要即刻檢討這個薪資標準讓現實中不會出現就是比基本工資還低的這個國家苛刻就是功力拖右的代理教師好嗎好 謝謝委員"},{"start":134.259,"end":146.489,"text":"第二題,剛剛一直在炒這個公不公共化的問題那我想應該很明確就是社長不會反對我這麼說準公共幼兒園不是公共化吧?"},{"start":147.677,"end":150.82,"text":"目前我們還是承認他為我們合作的夥伴他是一個評價機制但不是公共化那您剛剛講了公共化的定義是政府補助我是對你這個定義有個問號因為照你這個講法我們全國私立大學都是公共化了因為他都拿政府的補助"},{"start":167.637,"end":191.096,"text":"高校公共化我們像我們副總統他也是認為說補貼私立大學學生的學費那仍然朝向高校公共化是朝向公共化但還不是那公共化因為我個人在副團的時候我們當年是在推就是這個幼教跟長照公共化那公共化就一個國際上有三個核心的標準"},{"start":191.817,"end":192.017,"text":"1.評價2.優質3.普及化"},{"start":207.739,"end":230.374,"text":"因為私立做不到市場做不到所以政府才會介入那所以從目前介入的標準教育部其實是有定義的你們自己定義也是如同你剛講公立加非營利才是公共化那從你們這個定義的公共化的你來看到到目前為止這邊到111學年度其實比例我有直接算給你因為時間的緣故"},{"start":232.195,"end":249.122,"text":"公共化幼兒園的佔比其實還是只有三分之一就是遠遠的低於我們的期待所以到目前為止我們先不要看六都我們就全部來看幼兒園的公司比仍然是3比7"},{"start":250.623,"end":250.663,"text":"主席"},{"start":282.805,"end":302.302,"text":"跟委員討論這一件事對準公幼這個合作的這個夥伴們我基本上我們還是給予肯定我們當然沒有不肯定他們嘛要肯定啊所以他也達到了一個半公共化的這個目的減輕了家長的負擔這方面我們是有一起在努力"},{"start":302.662,"end":327.083,"text":"減輕家長負擔當然是好的可是達到優質這個目標真的很難我舉一些數字來看因為你們的報告裡面我真的覺得還是有點避重就輕啦就是剛剛林怡瑾、昭緯問的跟我問的現在要問的東西就是你們報告中沒有看到怎麼做到優質特別是這個準公托的部分那我們來看一下數字"},{"start":328.024,"end":346.209,"text":"根據調查為什麼家長還是要去公幼因為學費便宜施肢穩定不會違規六都裡面公幼的所謂的準公幼的違規率是三分之一當家長發現說我去這個看起來好像比較便宜有補貼的可是呢經常沒有"},{"start":346.789,"end":346.949,"text":"主席范雲"},{"start":372.682,"end":388.517,"text":"不是只有評價跟普及還要真正的優質所以我覺得你只有兩條路可以走第一個你提高那個真公右就是公右跟非營利提高你如果做不到的話你這個準公右2.0就應該要把關然後處理剛剛林議員講的那個退場的機制等等你如果不走這兩條路那我們教育部就失職了"},{"start":397.546,"end":424.684,"text":"就是用一個你看很多我已經搞不清楚這都到底各自代表什麼了所以這兩條路中間我覺得就是說教育部要痛下決心你到現在已經做一段時間了因為如果就盈利你補貼他他做不到優質因為他畢竟就是要盈利嘛如果他不盈利的話他為什麼要開這家就是幼兒園所以準公幼我們看到的這邊有多少人來問就是說薪資沒有到兩萬八對不對"},{"start":428.686,"end":434.231,"text":"請問那個次長 如果他在 准公幼一個月薪水零兩萬八對不對"},{"start":435.56,"end":441.063,"text":"對,所以還是有人在問這個問題顯然現實上他基本上就是被東扣西扣然後沒有符合據說教育部的規定那教保人員薪資被苛扣在准公幼是非常平常的那我們整理了准公幼現況的真實案例"},{"start":458.712,"end":472.638,"text":"有些地方像社工回捐一樣：要求繳回部分現金：機構先轉到教保員賬戶：然後年資一律從第一年起算：然後呢就故意跟他簽三年的約：三年後重新簽約年資歸零：還有呢就不再給加班費：然後全勤獎勵取消"},{"start":478.54,"end":498.614,"text":"還有用新地址立案．保人員年資全歸零還有勞健保低薪高報以符合主管機關就是教育部教育局的薪資規定但時拿比較低的薪資所以這個亂象重生所以我們剛剛講的違規很可能只是低估那我想教育部有一個殺手鍵"},{"start":500.876,"end":512.931,"text":"你看一下衛福部怎麼對準公托如果違反勞基法就請他退場那我想請問次長教育部有沒有相關的規定剛剛很多做法都違反勞基法了嘛"},{"start":513.373,"end":533.14,"text":"不管是哪一個單位違反勞基法幾乎不完全這是重大違規當然不得列入我們合作對象好 那不得列入那可不可以請教一部民文化因為衛福部這一點是有民文化那針對最需要去管理的既然得到政府的相關補助那違反勞基法就太說不過去了"},{"start":536.121,"end":559.863,"text":"是不是可以把准公幼原所違反勞基法納入相關的退場規範裡面呢?這個次長可不可以答應呢?好,舉凡所有的違法措施我們都不列入考慮啦好,那特別要講勞基法但是有一個比例的原則比如說那老師上課遲到他也是違規嘛交通車右轉這也是違規啦老師上課遲到"},{"start":562.745,"end":589.266,"text":"不是我們勞基法要規範的方式對我們來講對教保品質也是有所違物所以你這個要講清楚我剛剛給你看的為什麼衛福部要特別舉違反勞動基準法因為那個是很重要的嘛你很多就是因為違反勞基法才會出現虐童的這些事情嘛因為他不身負荷所以我想你這個部分不要講說違反規定規定太多了可不可以清楚把違反勞基法放在你的準公托相關的退場規定裡面"},{"start":591.823,"end":615.577,"text":"好 我們嚴厲把他納入嚴厲好嗎 因為我想這是最基本的對家長的保障因為這樣品質才能夠得到保障否則大家還是去擠公托最要求是合理的對 所以我今天講的三個您都有提到可以第一個 即刻檢討我剛剛講的公幼代理教師低於基本工資這個是你們的規定下產生的結果那第一個這個部分應該很快是不是可以一個月給我報告第一點可以吧"},{"start":620.112,"end":620.853,"text":"謝謝次長,一起加油"}]}}}}