{"id":151027,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151027","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b9cee92d0b056278a039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a6e901f84a635eded85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:23:12 - 09:33:56","影片長度":"00:10:44","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會列席就「國家科技發展策略與布局」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月10日及11日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":644,"end_time":"2024-04-11T09:33:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T09:23:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":177,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時23分）謝謝召委，我們請林副主委。"],["主席：有請林副主委。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：委員早安。"],["柯委員志恩：林副主委，我說實在，我還是延續孟楷的這個談話，我是非常遺憾今天你們的吳主委沒有到場，今天召委排了一個非常重要的科技發展，我們本來是希望能夠就教於吳主委，如果他沒有來的話，本席還是要表達深切的遺憾喔！","我們還是進入主題，在第9屆的時候，我站在這邊是科技部；現在第11屆我站在這邊，變成是我古早時候申請的國科會，所以科技部降級為國科會的時候，吳主委顯然也是覺得還可以，他不反對，因為他認為可以透過這樣一個委員會，只要透過每個月所開的會議平台，還是可以串聯各部會，沒有錯吧！你覺得這目標有達到嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：應該是有達到，因為目前整個國科會相關的科技計畫，都是就全國或者各個部會的角度思考。"],["柯委員志恩：是這樣子嗎？但是在你改之後，我還是要提醒副主委，你覺得你們每個月開的會議當中，我要問一下，每個部會首長你覺得誰最不配合？你們每個月都要開會啊！你們說要串聯所有各部會、跨平台的部會都來討論相關的議題，特別是重要的科技產業發展，你覺得誰最不配合？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：這個我現在真的沒有辦法回答，因為我……"],["柯委員志恩：你沒有辦法回答，你有參加過嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我有參加過，因為國科會的副主委一定是要參加的，我自己當然是一定有參加。"],["柯委員志恩：是！你知道誰出席率最低嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：這個我沒有辦法做這樣的統計。"],["柯委員志恩：你沒有辦法回答，我告訴你出席率高不高，主委有沒有親自現身，各部會主管有沒有親自現身，其實是代表這個委員會有沒有被重視，我可以幫你整理一下，最不配合的，你們總共開了9次會議，這些人一次都沒有出席過，都是找人代為出席；接下來，目前為止跟國科會最有關係的國發會，也是7次找人出席，更不要說其他的單位。你看看，你們當初所認為可以跨部會、可以來整合、串聯，結果這些人沒有一個人把你們當作一回事，你會不會覺得很心寒啊？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想有很多出席這個部分還有很大的、應該努力的空間。"],["柯委員志恩：你看吧！所以你們今天主委不出席委員會，你們所開的會議裡面，各部會的主管也都是派人來參加，對於當初吳主委認為可以透過所謂的國科會來串聯，讓各部會有跨部會的討論，其實這個目的是沒有達到的，這一點我要跟林副主委充分地表達，數據會說話。接下來，我們來看一下，在2019的全國科學技術會議當中，我們認為人才的培育是非常重要，我想副主委是來自於學界，所以你認為國科會目前為止，對於育才、留才、攬才有達到你們當初規劃的目標嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們不能講說達到理想目標，但是我們做了很多，比如說第一個，我們對於整個研究計畫，還有博士班部分有1,000個……"],["柯委員志恩：好、好，博士班，非常好，我們來自於學界。副主委，我們先把數據看完再說，在人才這部分，我們用數據來看，洛桑管理學院裡面有關數位競爭的部分，我們先給大家看一下，你看你的競爭力，其實整個指標是有上升的，但是我們最在乎的人才，這是國科會應該好好培養的科技人才，你看它的倒退，跟2020年比起來，到2023年是倒退的；再往下看，你特別提到國科會所做的，目前為止，近十年來我們的STEM，即Science、Technology、Engineering and Mathematics這幾項，十年來我們的STEM，我們認為是主管我們科技發展的部分，十年來人數少了10萬。我們再往下看，還有外國專業人員可以聘僱的，你看從106年到現在，逐年地降低，這是我們認為人才、攬才非常重要。剛才提到人才，更不要說我在當委員的時候，我們提出的一個LIFT計畫，希望能夠把海外人員做一個橋接，這一項我想副主委應該非常地清楚，結果我們4年花了四億多，那時候我們就質疑這樣的有效性，只留下了97個人。所以這一連串看下來，副主委，你真的還是覺得我們的人才、攬才、育才達到當初所認為的規劃方向嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：還不夠、還不夠，而且誠如剛剛委員指出來的，當然有很多原因，這些原因其實我們必須要非常積極改善臺灣工作的環境，以往我們請人家回來，如果臺灣的整個工作環境，尤其是科技人才……"],["柯委員志恩：這些大家都會知道，但是你們到底做了什麼？因為我們的薪資、各方面跟別人都不太能夠比。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：報告委員，所以我們從去年開始、還有從今年開始，去年事實上就開始有1,000個博士班學生，如果我們博士班學生的薪水遠比外面做碩士的產業來得低很多，當然就沒有辦法留，所以是今年……"],["柯委員志恩：好，博士班學生是來自於什麼樣的領域？你們所培育的博士班學生是來自什麼領域？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：都有，當然我們也不能偏廢人文，人文也非常重要。"],["柯委員志恩：OK，我們知道嘛，國科會國際的發展，我們今天就focus在科技發展上，你看我們整體計畫當中，你說博士班的培育，R&D當然是非常地重要啊！但是你看我們基礎研究的能量，日本大概完全占整體研發經費的12%，包括1,000個博士都是屬於這樣的經費，日本12.6%，我們臺灣7.45%，只比中國大陸多一點點而已，跟其他國家完全是沒有辦法相比，十年前還有9.8%，現在只有七點多，你告訴我你投入這麼多，這個數據會說話，你放在基礎研究上面，基礎研究是一切的根本，副主委是不是這個樣子？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我非常謝謝委員提出這一點，我是在到國科會之前，曾經就寫過，那時候大概是7.0%左右，其中一個非常重要的原因是國家投入基礎研究的整體預算太低。"],["柯委員志恩：是！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：對，這個就必須要靠各個委員跟大家的幫忙。"],["柯委員志恩：你們連開個會，各自的主管、教育部什麼都不跟你們開，你們主委今天也不來這個地方，你都可以看出問題所在，你都已經來到公部門，從學界來到公部門，你都已經看出問題所在，可是還是沒有辦法……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：所以我們很希望能夠提高基礎研究本身，在整體計畫的政府部門……"],["柯委員志恩：對！你們的主委還特別提到說，除了這個東西沒有辦法，我們希望民間，他真的下任之後到民間，他今天沒有來，不然我很想問問他如何讓民間也能投注在我們所謂的基礎研究？你可以看得出來有多少投入到民間的基礎研究，到目前為止不到一成，所以你們都知道問題所在，你們都已在這個位置上面，但是你都提不出最好的一個政策，這是我覺得非常可惜的地方，更何況我們現在每個人都說AI、AI，副主委你來自臺大、你來自一個高等的學府，我現在問你，臺灣未來都要往AI走，然後我們的各大學只要有個AI，教育部很快就會讓你改名通過，你認為這樣改名有用嗎？不管是改成哪樣的名字，老師都是十幾、二十年的老師，也沒有再去進修，也沒有從產業過來，你改個名字，你覺得這樣就有辦法讓我們臺灣的AI人才因此而倍數成長嗎？你自己從學校來，你認為這樣可以嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：柯委員其實也在學校裡面當過高階主管，如果整個完全只是改名，這個絕對換湯不換藥，沒有辦法達到，真正的AI尤其在這幾年ChatGPT的開始，就是生成式的，它會滲透到各個領域的應用，所以應該是保原來領域的應用非常重要，你把AI當作一個工具去……"],["柯委員志恩：我瞭解、我瞭解，我們現在不要談AI，我只問你，對於所有的各大專院校裡面，你從學校背景來說，你覺得改個名字，老師換湯不換藥，也沒有產業經驗，你覺得這樣有辦法育成我們臺灣的AI人才嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們還是必須看實質的部分，因為這是很大的改變。"],["柯委員志恩：很困難，對不對？還有不要說學校，國科會裡面應該主導最大的一個部分，我們來看一下那個時候行政院的生成式AI，你剛剛說國科會有做一個參考指引，你認為有參考價值嗎？你有沒有瞭解過參考指引？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：參考指引是對於未來立法非常重要的參考，目前……"],["柯委員志恩：是，可是我告訴你……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：目前在各個部會的運用，我們都積極參與，也就是說……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有！你沒有積極參與，就算你有積極參與，但大家給你的回饋非常少，甚至很多民眾看了指引之後，我等一下給你看事實的狀況，只會告訴你這個不行、那個不行，都沒有告訴你什麼叫做行的，你看看你們的指引，我把它拿出來看，不得取代什麼、禁止使用、不得向生成的部分、亦不得怎麼樣，這是民眾所反映的，這個不行、那個不行，你就好像前面有個繩索、絆馬索一樣，你沒有告訴我什麼樣才是行，這是我們認為最需要的國科會AI參考指引長成這個樣子。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：應該是說我們鼓勵使用，但是在某些地方我們必須小心，比如像機密文件，這個不能丟到生成式AI。"],["柯委員志恩：我沒有辦法跟你談機密文件，光是把一個指引擺出來，你希望每個人能給國科會一些回饋，問題是這樣的一個指引沒辦法給回饋，這就如我剛所提到的很多大專院校，我們臺灣都認為要AI，AI需要投資上百億、上千億才有辦法，目前我們做得非常淺層，可是每個人就是拿AI之名，從大學裡面改換名稱就認為它符合AI的淺層定義，連行政院你們所屬的機關要生成一個AI的參考指引，都只是用這樣的文字敘述，你如何來告訴我們臺灣打從頭到尾可以用到的AI？好不好？所以這個東西對我來說是一個……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想委員指出非常重要的，就是在應用面我們更應該加強落地這個部分，我們當然也有其他的AI計畫在做這方面……"],["柯委員志恩：好啦！副主委，我個人覺得從學界來到這個地方，不應該只知道理論，當你握有這個權力的時候，其實你可以好好把你覺得很無奈、臺灣應該的發展方向，你們都有你們的mind，但是你們的action，更不要說innovation，什麼AI的內閣！光是這點如果做不到的話，這個AI對我們來說，不管它的定義是什麼，不管它是不是行動跟創新，或是真正的AI人工智慧，對我們來說都只是空談，我只希望能夠表達這個。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：非常謝謝……"],["柯委員志恩：既然在這個地方就把它化為行動，好不好？謝謝。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，把它落地，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩召委。","我們再來請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","萬美玲","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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\"end\": 609.353, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 609.353, \"end\": 609.373, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"閣\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 624.44, \"end\": 624.46, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 624.46, \"end\": 624.48, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,308 --> 00:00:01,349\n柯志恩,召委,質詢。\n\n2\n00:00:18,522 --> 00:00:31,822\n林副主委,說實在我還是延續孟凱的這個談話我是非常遺憾今天你們的吳主委沒有到因為今天召委排的一個非常重要的科技發展那我們本來是希望能夠就教於吳主委\n\n3\n00:00:32,904 --> 00:00:33,064\n李慧琼議員\n\n4\n00:00:56,265 --> 00:01:12,791\n對因為他認為可以透過這樣的一個委員會只要透過每個月所開的這個會議平台裡面還是可以串聯各部會沒有錯吧你覺得這個目標有達到嗎應該是有達到因為目前整個國科會的相關的科技計畫都是就全國或者各個部會的角度思考\n\n5\n00:01:13,331 --> 00:01:21,378\n是這樣子嗎?但是呢你改之後我還是要提醒我們副主委你覺得你們每個月開的會議當中呢每個部會所長我要問一下你覺得誰最不配合?你們每個月都要開會啊你們說要串流所有各部會跨平台的部會都來討論我們有些相關的特別是重要的科技產業發展你覺得誰最不配合?這個我現在甚至沒有辦法回答你沒有辦法回答?你有參加過嗎?因為我有參加過因為國科會的副主委一定是要參加的是那你知道誰的出席率最低嗎?\n\n6\n00:01:42,368 --> 00:01:50,093\n你沒有辦法回答我告訴你出席率高不高主委有沒有親自現身各部會主委有沒有的主管有沒有親自現身其實是代表這個委員會的被重要我可以幫你整理一下最不配合的你們總共開了9次會議這些人\n\n7\n00:01:57,017 --> 00:02:18,828\n每次都沒有出席過,都是找人來代位出席接下來跟你們最有關係的國發會目前為止是最有關係,跟我們的科技部是最有關係的他也是7次找人出席,更不要說其他的你看看,你們當初所認為可以跨部會的這樣子的一個可以來整合串流就這些人沒有一個人把你們當作一回事,你會不會覺得很心寒啊\n\n8\n00:02:20,336 --> 00:02:32,426\n我想有很多出席這個部分還有很大的空間還有很大應該努力的空間你看吧所以你們今天主委不出席到我們這邊委員會當中你們所開的會議裡面你們各處會的一個主管也都是派人來參加這個對於你們當初吳主委認為可以透過這個所謂的國科會來串流讓各部會有跨部會的討論其實這個目的是沒有達到的這一點我要跟林主委充分的表達數據會說話接下來我們來看一下\n\n9\n00:02:47,839 --> 00:02:58,789\n在我們2019年的時候我們全國科學技術的會議當中我們把人才的培育是認為是非常重要我想這個副主委是來自於學界所以你認為我們國科會目前為止對育才、留才、攬才有到你們所當初規劃的目標嗎?\n\n10\n00:03:05,173 --> 00:03:05,654\n主委先看數據再說\n\n11\n00:03:21,783 --> 00:03:21,843\n李慧琼議員\n\n12\n00:03:39,173 --> 00:03:42,097\n與2020年比起的到2023年的倒退再往下來看你特別提到的我們國科會所做的你看我們目前為止近10年來我們的STEM對不對我們的Science,Technology,Engineering,Mathematics這幾個\n\n13\n00:03:54,695 --> 00:03:57,839\n10年來我們這些STEM我們認為是主管我們科技發展的10年來少的10萬我們再往下來看還有我們外國專業人員可以聘僱的你看從106到現在逐年的降低這是我們認為人才懶才非常重要的當然人才更不要說那時候在我當\n\n14\n00:04:14,577 --> 00:04:30,954\n委員的時候我們提出了一個LIF的計畫希望能夠把海外人員來有一個橋接這項我想副主委應該非常的清楚只有我們4年花了4億多回台那時候我們就質疑這樣的這個有效性只留下的97個人我們再往下看所以這一連串的下來\n\n15\n00:04:32,935 --> 00:04:55,555\n副主委,你真的還是覺得我們人才、懶財、育才﹐達到你當初所認為的規劃方向嗎?還不夠,還不夠而且誠如剛剛委員指出來的這個其實當然有很多原因那這些原因其實我們必須要非常積極改善台灣工作的環境就是說以往我們請人家回來如果台灣的整個工作環境尤其是科技人\n\n16\n00:04:55,835 --> 00:05:17,777\n這大家都會知道但是你們到底做了什麼因為我們的薪資我們各方面跟別人都不太能夠比所以我們報告委員所以我們從去年開始還有從今年開始去年事實上就開始有一千個博士班學生如果我們博士班學生他的薪水是遠比外面做碩士的產業來的低很多那博士班學生是來自於什麼樣的領域你們所培育的博士班學生是來自什麼領域都有\n\n17\n00:05:18,277 --> 00:05:31,074\n當然我們也不能偏會人文人文也非常重要OK好那我們知道嘛國會國際的發展我們今天就focus在我們的科技發展你看我們整體計畫當中你說博士班的培育我也完全R&D當然非常的重要啊但是你看我們基礎研究的這個能量你看看\n\n18\n00:05:33,957 --> 00:05:55,592\n日本大概可以完全占整體的研發經費的12包括你1000個博士都是屬於這樣的經費日本12.6我們台灣7.45只比中國大陸多一點點而已你跟其他國家完全是沒有辦法10年前還有9.8你現在只有7點多你告訴我你投入這麼多這個數據會說話你放在基礎研究上面基礎研究是一切的根本\n\n19\n00:05:56,252 --> 00:06:11,429\n主委是不是這個樣子這一點我非常謝謝那個委員提出這一點這一點我日動到國科會之前曾經就寫過那時候大概7.0左右那其中一個非常重要的原因是國家投入基礎研究的整體預算太低\n\n20\n00:06:11,829 --> 00:06:12,970\n所以我們很希望能夠提高基礎研究本身\n\n21\n00:06:35,327 --> 00:07:01,382\n主委還特別提到說除了這個東西沒有辦法我們希望民間他真的下任之後到民間去問他今天沒有來不然我很想問問他你如何讓民間也能夠投注在我們所謂的基礎研究你可以看得出來有多少投到民間基礎研究到目前為止不到一成所以你們都知道問題所在你們都已經在這個位置上面但是你都提不出最好的一個政策這是我覺得非常可惜的地方更何況我們現在每個人都說AIAI\n\n22\n00:07:03,563 --> 00:07:03,703\n我想那個\n\n23\n00:07:33,031 --> 00:07:52,948\n科學委員其實也在學校當過高級主管我們如果整個完全只是改名這個絕對犯貪補犯也沒有辦法達到那AI真正的尤其在這幾年CHOPGPP的開始就是生成式的它會滲透到各個領域的應用所以應該是保原來的領域的應用非常重要那你把\n\n24\n00:07:53,809 --> 00:07:54,410\n我們還是繼續看實質的部分\n\n25\n00:08:10,302 --> 00:08:10,682\n在各個部會的運用我們都積極參與沒有\n\n26\n00:08:37,060 --> 00:08:48,423\n你沒有積極參與你有積極參與當然大家給你的回饋非常的少你甚至有很多的民眾看到你的指引之後大家給你看事實的狀況只會告訴你這個不行那個不行然後都沒有告訴你什麼叫做行的你看看你們的指引我把它拿出來看吧不得取代什麼禁止使用不得像生成的部分亦不得怎麼樣這是民眾所反映的嘛這個不行那個不行你就好像前面有個繩索半馬索一樣你沒有告訴我什麼才是行這是國科會我們認為最需要的AI的參考的指引\n\n27\n00:09:06,809 --> 00:09:12,833\n我沒有辦法跟你談機密文件我光是一個指引把它擺出來你希望每個人給國科會能夠有一些的回饋問題是你這樣的一個指引沒有辦法給回饋這就如我剛所提到的很多大自然運銷我們台灣都認為AI\n\n28\n00:09:30,683 --> 00:09:30,863\n我講委員．\n\n29\n00:09:55,907 --> 00:10:09,373\n所以這個東西對我來說是一個委員指出非常重要的就是在應用面我們更應該加強落地這個部分那我們當然也有其他的AI計畫在做這方面好啦那個副主委我真的覺得我個人覺得說從學界來到這個地方我們不知道只有理論當你握有這個權利的時候其實你可以好好把你認為你覺得很無奈台灣應該的發展方向你們都有你們的mind但是你們的action你們的action更不要說innovation什麼AI的內閣\n\n30\n00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:24,480\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n308\t1349\t柯志恩,召委,質詢。\n18522\t31822\t林副主委,說實在我還是延續孟凱的這個談話我是非常遺憾今天你們的吳主委沒有到因為今天召委排的一個非常重要的科技發展那我們本來是希望能夠就教於吳主委\n32904\t33064\t李慧琼議員\n56265\t72791\t對 因為他認為可以透過這樣的一個委員會只要透過每個月所開的這個會議平台裡面還是可以串聯各部會 沒有錯吧你覺得這個目標有達到嗎應該是有達到因為目前整個國科會的相關的科技計畫都是就全國或者各個部會的角度思考\n73331\t81378\t是這樣子嗎?但是呢你改之後我還是要提醒我們副主委你覺得你們每個月開的會議當中呢每個部會所長我要問一下你覺得誰最不配合?你們每個月都要開會啊你們說要串流所有各部會跨平台的部會都來討論我們有些相關的特別是重要的科技產業發展你覺得誰最不配合?這個我現在甚至沒有辦法回答你沒有辦法回答?你有參加過嗎?因為我有參加過因為國科會的副主委一定是要參加的是那你知道誰的出席率最低嗎?\n102368\t110093\t你沒有辦法回答我告訴你出席率高不高主委有沒有親自現身各部會主委有沒有的主管有沒有親自現身其實是代表這個委員會的被重要我可以幫你整理一下最不配合的你們總共開了9次會議這些人\n117017\t138828\t每次都沒有出席過,都是找人來代位出席接下來跟你們最有關係的國發會目前為止是最有關係,跟我們的科技部是最有關係的他也是7次找人出席,更不要說其他的你看看,你們當初所認為可以跨部會的這樣子的一個可以來整合串流就這些人沒有一個人把你們當作一回事,你會不會覺得很心寒啊\n140336\t152426\t我想有很多出席這個部分還有很大的空間還有很大應該努力的空間你看吧所以你們今天主委不出席到我們這邊委員會當中你們所開的會議裡面你們各處會的一個主管也都是派人來參加這個對於你們當初吳主委認為可以透過這個所謂的國科會來串流讓各部會有跨部會的討論其實這個目的是沒有達到的這一點我要跟林主委充分的表達數據會說話接下來我們來看一下\n167839\t178789\t在我們2019年的時候我們全國科學技術的會議當中我們把人才的培育是認為是非常重要我想這個副主委是來自於學界所以你認為我們國科會目前為止對育才、留才、攬才有到你們所當初規劃的目標嗎?\n185173\t185654\t主委 先看數據再說\n201783\t201843\t李慧琼議員\n219173\t222097\t與2020年比起的到2023年的倒退再往下來看你特別提到的我們國科會所做的你看我們目前為止近10年來我們的STEM對不對我們的Science,Technology,Engineering,Mathematics這幾個\n234695\t237839\t10年來我們這些STEM我們認為是主管我們科技發展的10年來少的10萬我們再往下來看還有我們外國專業人員可以聘僱的你看從106到現在逐年的降低這是我們認為人才懶才非常重要的當然人才更不要說那時候在我當\n254577\t270954\t委員的時候我們提出了一個LIF的計畫希望能夠把海外人員來有一個橋接這項我想副主委應該非常的清楚只有我們4年花了4億多回台那時候我們就質疑這樣的這個有效性只留下的97個人我們再往下看所以這一連串的下來\n272935\t295555\t副主委,你真的還是覺得我們人才、懶財、育才﹐達到你當初所認為的規劃方向嗎?還不夠,還不夠而且誠如剛剛委員指出來的這個其實當然有很多原因那這些原因其實我們必須要非常積極改善台灣工作的環境就是說以往我們請人家回來如果台灣的整個工作環境尤其是科技人\n295835\t317777\t這大家都會知道但是你們到底做了什麼因為我們的薪資我們各方面跟別人都不太能夠比所以我們報告委員所以我們從去年開始還有從今年開始去年事實上就開始有一千個博士班學生如果我們博士班學生他的薪水是遠比外面做碩士的產業來的低很多那博士班學生是來自於什麼樣的領域你們所培育的博士班學生是來自什麼領域都有\n318277\t331074\t當然我們也不能偏會人文 人文也非常重要OK 好 那我們知道嘛 國會國際的發展我們今天就focus在我們的科技發展你看我們整體計畫當中 你說博士班的培育我也完全R&D當然非常的重要啊但是你看我們基礎研究的這個能量 你看看\n333957\t355592\t日本大概可以完全占整體的研發經費的12 包括你1000個博士都是屬於這樣的經費日本12.6我們台灣7.45只比中國大陸多一點點而已你跟其他國家完全是沒有辦法10年前還有9.8你現在只有7點多你告訴我你投入這麼多這個數據會說話你放在基礎研究上面基礎研究是一切的根本\n356252\t371429\t主委 是不是這個樣子這一點我非常謝謝那個委員提出這一點這一點我日動到國科會之前曾經就寫過那時候大概7.0左右那其中一個非常重要的原因是國家投入基礎研究的整體預算太低\n371829\t372970\t所以我們很希望能夠提高基礎研究本身\n395327\t421382\t主委還特別提到說除了這個東西沒有辦法我們希望民間他真的下任之後到民間去問他今天沒有來不然我很想問問他你如何讓民間也能夠投注在我們所謂的基礎研究你可以看得出來有多少投到民間基礎研究到目前為止不到一成所以你們都知道問題所在你們都已經在這個位置上面但是你都提不出最好的一個政策這是我覺得非常可惜的地方更何況我們現在每個人都說AI AI\n423563\t423703\t我想那個\n453031\t472948\t科學委員其實也在學校當過高級主管我們如果整個完全只是改名這個絕對犯貪補犯也沒有辦法達到那AI真正的尤其在這幾年CHOP GPP的開始就是生成式的它會滲透到各個領域的應用所以應該是保原來的領域的應用非常重要那你把\n473809\t474410\t我們還是繼續看實質的部分\n490302\t490682\t在各個部會的運用我們都積極參與沒有\n517060\t528423\t你沒有積極參與你有積極參與當然大家給你的回饋非常的少你甚至有很多的民眾看到你的指引之後大家給你看事實的狀況只會告訴你這個不行那個不行然後都沒有告訴你什麼叫做行的你看看你們的指引我把它拿出來看吧不得取代什麼禁止使用不得像生成的部分亦不得怎麼樣這是民眾所反映的嘛這個不行那個不行你就好像前面有個繩索半馬索一樣你沒有告訴我什麼才是行這是國科會我們認為最需要的AI的參考的指引\n546809\t552833\t我沒有辦法跟你談機密文件我光是一個指引把它擺出來你希望每個人給國科會能夠有一些的回饋問題是你這樣的一個指引沒有辦法給回饋這就如我剛所提到的很多大自然運銷我們台灣都認為AI\n570683\t570863\t我講委員．\n595907\t609373\t所以這個東西對我來說是一個委員指出非常重要的就是在應用面我們更應該加強落地這個部分那我們當然也有其他的AI計畫在做這方面好啦那個副主委我真的覺得我個人覺得說從學界來到這個地方我們不知道只有理論當你握有這個權利的時候其實你可以好好把你認為你覺得很無奈台灣應該的發展方向你們都有你們的mind但是你們的action你們的action更不要說innovation什麼AI的內閣\n624440\t624480\t主席\n","txt":"柯志恩,召委,質詢。\n林副主委,說實在我還是延續孟凱的這個談話我是非常遺憾今天你們的吳主委沒有到因為今天召委排的一個非常重要的科技發展那我們本來是希望能夠就教於吳主委\n李慧琼議員\n對 因為他認為可以透過這樣的一個委員會只要透過每個月所開的這個會議平台裡面還是可以串聯各部會 沒有錯吧你覺得這個目標有達到嗎應該是有達到因為目前整個國科會的相關的科技計畫都是就全國或者各個部會的角度思考\n是這樣子嗎?但是呢你改之後我還是要提醒我們副主委你覺得你們每個月開的會議當中呢每個部會所長我要問一下你覺得誰最不配合?你們每個月都要開會啊你們說要串流所有各部會跨平台的部會都來討論我們有些相關的特別是重要的科技產業發展你覺得誰最不配合?這個我現在甚至沒有辦法回答你沒有辦法回答?你有參加過嗎?因為我有參加過因為國科會的副主委一定是要參加的是那你知道誰的出席率最低嗎?\n你沒有辦法回答我告訴你出席率高不高主委有沒有親自現身各部會主委有沒有的主管有沒有親自現身其實是代表這個委員會的被重要我可以幫你整理一下最不配合的你們總共開了9次會議這些人\n每次都沒有出席過,都是找人來代位出席接下來跟你們最有關係的國發會目前為止是最有關係,跟我們的科技部是最有關係的他也是7次找人出席,更不要說其他的你看看,你們當初所認為可以跨部會的這樣子的一個可以來整合串流就這些人沒有一個人把你們當作一回事,你會不會覺得很心寒啊\n我想有很多出席這個部分還有很大的空間還有很大應該努力的空間你看吧所以你們今天主委不出席到我們這邊委員會當中你們所開的會議裡面你們各處會的一個主管也都是派人來參加這個對於你們當初吳主委認為可以透過這個所謂的國科會來串流讓各部會有跨部會的討論其實這個目的是沒有達到的這一點我要跟林主委充分的表達數據會說話接下來我們來看一下\n在我們2019年的時候我們全國科學技術的會議當中我們把人才的培育是認為是非常重要我想這個副主委是來自於學界所以你認為我們國科會目前為止對育才、留才、攬才有到你們所當初規劃的目標嗎?\n主委 先看數據再說\n李慧琼議員\n與2020年比起的到2023年的倒退再往下來看你特別提到的我們國科會所做的你看我們目前為止近10年來我們的STEM對不對我們的Science,Technology,Engineering,Mathematics這幾個\n10年來我們這些STEM我們認為是主管我們科技發展的10年來少的10萬我們再往下來看還有我們外國專業人員可以聘僱的你看從106到現在逐年的降低這是我們認為人才懶才非常重要的當然人才更不要說那時候在我當\n委員的時候我們提出了一個LIF的計畫希望能夠把海外人員來有一個橋接這項我想副主委應該非常的清楚只有我們4年花了4億多回台那時候我們就質疑這樣的這個有效性只留下的97個人我們再往下看所以這一連串的下來\n副主委,你真的還是覺得我們人才、懶財、育才﹐達到你當初所認為的規劃方向嗎?還不夠,還不夠而且誠如剛剛委員指出來的這個其實當然有很多原因那這些原因其實我們必須要非常積極改善台灣工作的環境就是說以往我們請人家回來如果台灣的整個工作環境尤其是科技人\n這大家都會知道但是你們到底做了什麼因為我們的薪資我們各方面跟別人都不太能夠比所以我們報告委員所以我們從去年開始還有從今年開始去年事實上就開始有一千個博士班學生如果我們博士班學生他的薪水是遠比外面做碩士的產業來的低很多那博士班學生是來自於什麼樣的領域你們所培育的博士班學生是來自什麼領域都有\n當然我們也不能偏會人文 人文也非常重要OK 好 那我們知道嘛 國會國際的發展我們今天就focus在我們的科技發展你看我們整體計畫當中 你說博士班的培育我也完全R&D當然非常的重要啊但是你看我們基礎研究的這個能量 你看看\n日本大概可以完全占整體的研發經費的12 包括你1000個博士都是屬於這樣的經費日本12.6我們台灣7.45只比中國大陸多一點點而已你跟其他國家完全是沒有辦法10年前還有9.8你現在只有7點多你告訴我你投入這麼多這個數據會說話你放在基礎研究上面基礎研究是一切的根本\n主委 是不是這個樣子這一點我非常謝謝那個委員提出這一點這一點我日動到國科會之前曾經就寫過那時候大概7.0左右那其中一個非常重要的原因是國家投入基礎研究的整體預算太低\n所以我們很希望能夠提高基礎研究本身\n主委還特別提到說除了這個東西沒有辦法我們希望民間他真的下任之後到民間去問他今天沒有來不然我很想問問他你如何讓民間也能夠投注在我們所謂的基礎研究你可以看得出來有多少投到民間基礎研究到目前為止不到一成所以你們都知道問題所在你們都已經在這個位置上面但是你都提不出最好的一個政策這是我覺得非常可惜的地方更何況我們現在每個人都說AI AI\n我想那個\n科學委員其實也在學校當過高級主管我們如果整個完全只是改名這個絕對犯貪補犯也沒有辦法達到那AI真正的尤其在這幾年CHOP GPP的開始就是生成式的它會滲透到各個領域的應用所以應該是保原來的領域的應用非常重要那你把\n我們還是繼續看實質的部分\n在各個部會的運用我們都積極參與沒有\n你沒有積極參與你有積極參與當然大家給你的回饋非常的少你甚至有很多的民眾看到你的指引之後大家給你看事實的狀況只會告訴你這個不行那個不行然後都沒有告訴你什麼叫做行的你看看你們的指引我把它拿出來看吧不得取代什麼禁止使用不得像生成的部分亦不得怎麼樣這是民眾所反映的嘛這個不行那個不行你就好像前面有個繩索半馬索一樣你沒有告訴我什麼才是行這是國科會我們認為最需要的AI的參考的指引\n我沒有辦法跟你談機密文件我光是一個指引把它擺出來你希望每個人給國科會能夠有一些的回饋問題是你這樣的一個指引沒有辦法給回饋這就如我剛所提到的很多大自然運銷我們台灣都認為AI\n我講委員．\n所以這個東西對我來說是一個委員指出非常重要的就是在應用面我們更應該加強落地這個部分那我們當然也有其他的AI計畫在做這方面好啦那個副主委我真的覺得我個人覺得說從學界來到這個地方我們不知道只有理論當你握有這個權利的時候其實你可以好好把你認為你覺得很無奈台灣應該的發展方向你們都有你們的mind但是你們的action你們的action更不要說innovation什麼AI的內閣\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.308 --> 00:01.349\n柯志恩,召委,質詢。\n\n00:18.522 --> 00:31.822\n林副主委,說實在我還是延續孟凱的這個談話我是非常遺憾今天你們的吳主委沒有到因為今天召委排的一個非常重要的科技發展那我們本來是希望能夠就教於吳主委\n\n00:32.904 --> 00:33.064\n李慧琼議員\n\n00:56.265 --> 01:12.791\n對因為他認為可以透過這樣的一個委員會只要透過每個月所開的這個會議平台裡面還是可以串聯各部會沒有錯吧你覺得這個目標有達到嗎應該是有達到因為目前整個國科會的相關的科技計畫都是就全國或者各個部會的角度思考\n\n01:13.331 --> 01:21.378\n是這樣子嗎?但是呢你改之後我還是要提醒我們副主委你覺得你們每個月開的會議當中呢每個部會所長我要問一下你覺得誰最不配合?你們每個月都要開會啊你們說要串流所有各部會跨平台的部會都來討論我們有些相關的特別是重要的科技產業發展你覺得誰最不配合?這個我現在甚至沒有辦法回答你沒有辦法回答?你有參加過嗎?因為我有參加過因為國科會的副主委一定是要參加的是那你知道誰的出席率最低嗎?\n\n01:42.368 --> 01:50.093\n你沒有辦法回答我告訴你出席率高不高主委有沒有親自現身各部會主委有沒有的主管有沒有親自現身其實是代表這個委員會的被重要我可以幫你整理一下最不配合的你們總共開了9次會議這些人\n\n01:57.017 --> 02:18.828\n每次都沒有出席過,都是找人來代位出席接下來跟你們最有關係的國發會目前為止是最有關係,跟我們的科技部是最有關係的他也是7次找人出席,更不要說其他的你看看,你們當初所認為可以跨部會的這樣子的一個可以來整合串流就這些人沒有一個人把你們當作一回事,你會不會覺得很心寒啊\n\n02:20.336 --> 02:32.426\n我想有很多出席這個部分還有很大的空間還有很大應該努力的空間你看吧所以你們今天主委不出席到我們這邊委員會當中你們所開的會議裡面你們各處會的一個主管也都是派人來參加這個對於你們當初吳主委認為可以透過這個所謂的國科會來串流讓各部會有跨部會的討論其實這個目的是沒有達到的這一點我要跟林主委充分的表達數據會說話接下來我們來看一下\n\n02:47.839 --> 02:58.789\n在我們2019年的時候我們全國科學技術的會議當中我們把人才的培育是認為是非常重要我想這個副主委是來自於學界所以你認為我們國科會目前為止對育才、留才、攬才有到你們所當初規劃的目標嗎?\n\n03:05.173 --> 03:05.654\n主委先看數據再說\n\n03:21.783 --> 03:21.843\n李慧琼議員\n\n03:39.173 --> 03:42.097\n與2020年比起的到2023年的倒退再往下來看你特別提到的我們國科會所做的你看我們目前為止近10年來我們的STEM對不對我們的Science,Technology,Engineering,Mathematics這幾個\n\n03:54.695 --> 03:57.839\n10年來我們這些STEM我們認為是主管我們科技發展的10年來少的10萬我們再往下來看還有我們外國專業人員可以聘僱的你看從106到現在逐年的降低這是我們認為人才懶才非常重要的當然人才更不要說那時候在我當\n\n04:14.577 --> 04:30.954\n委員的時候我們提出了一個LIF的計畫希望能夠把海外人員來有一個橋接這項我想副主委應該非常的清楚只有我們4年花了4億多回台那時候我們就質疑這樣的這個有效性只留下的97個人我們再往下看所以這一連串的下來\n\n04:32.935 --> 04:55.555\n副主委,你真的還是覺得我們人才、懶財、育才﹐達到你當初所認為的規劃方向嗎?還不夠,還不夠而且誠如剛剛委員指出來的這個其實當然有很多原因那這些原因其實我們必須要非常積極改善台灣工作的環境就是說以往我們請人家回來如果台灣的整個工作環境尤其是科技人\n\n04:55.835 --> 05:17.777\n這大家都會知道但是你們到底做了什麼因為我們的薪資我們各方面跟別人都不太能夠比所以我們報告委員所以我們從去年開始還有從今年開始去年事實上就開始有一千個博士班學生如果我們博士班學生他的薪水是遠比外面做碩士的產業來的低很多那博士班學生是來自於什麼樣的領域你們所培育的博士班學生是來自什麼領域都有\n\n05:18.277 --> 05:31.074\n當然我們也不能偏會人文人文也非常重要OK好那我們知道嘛國會國際的發展我們今天就focus在我們的科技發展你看我們整體計畫當中你說博士班的培育我也完全R&D當然非常的重要啊但是你看我們基礎研究的這個能量你看看\n\n05:33.957 --> 05:55.592\n日本大概可以完全占整體的研發經費的12包括你1000個博士都是屬於這樣的經費日本12.6我們台灣7.45只比中國大陸多一點點而已你跟其他國家完全是沒有辦法10年前還有9.8你現在只有7點多你告訴我你投入這麼多這個數據會說話你放在基礎研究上面基礎研究是一切的根本\n\n05:56.252 --> 06:11.429\n主委是不是這個樣子這一點我非常謝謝那個委員提出這一點這一點我日動到國科會之前曾經就寫過那時候大概7.0左右那其中一個非常重要的原因是國家投入基礎研究的整體預算太低\n\n06:11.829 --> 06:12.970\n所以我們很希望能夠提高基礎研究本身\n\n06:35.327 --> 07:01.382\n主委還特別提到說除了這個東西沒有辦法我們希望民間他真的下任之後到民間去問他今天沒有來不然我很想問問他你如何讓民間也能夠投注在我們所謂的基礎研究你可以看得出來有多少投到民間基礎研究到目前為止不到一成所以你們都知道問題所在你們都已經在這個位置上面但是你都提不出最好的一個政策這是我覺得非常可惜的地方更何況我們現在每個人都說AIAI\n\n07:03.563 --> 07:03.703\n我想那個\n\n07:33.031 --> 07:52.948\n科學委員其實也在學校當過高級主管我們如果整個完全只是改名這個絕對犯貪補犯也沒有辦法達到那AI真正的尤其在這幾年CHOPGPP的開始就是生成式的它會滲透到各個領域的應用所以應該是保原來的領域的應用非常重要那你把\n\n07:53.809 --> 07:54.410\n我們還是繼續看實質的部分\n\n08:10.302 --> 08:10.682\n在各個部會的運用我們都積極參與沒有\n\n08:37.060 --> 08:48.423\n你沒有積極參與你有積極參與當然大家給你的回饋非常的少你甚至有很多的民眾看到你的指引之後大家給你看事實的狀況只會告訴你這個不行那個不行然後都沒有告訴你什麼叫做行的你看看你們的指引我把它拿出來看吧不得取代什麼禁止使用不得像生成的部分亦不得怎麼樣這是民眾所反映的嘛這個不行那個不行你就好像前面有個繩索半馬索一樣你沒有告訴我什麼才是行這是國科會我們認為最需要的AI的參考的指引\n\n09:06.809 --> 09:12.833\n我沒有辦法跟你談機密文件我光是一個指引把它擺出來你希望每個人給國科會能夠有一些的回饋問題是你這樣的一個指引沒有辦法給回饋這就如我剛所提到的很多大自然運銷我們台灣都認為AI\n\n09:30.683 --> 09:30.863\n我講委員．\n\n09:55.907 --> 10:09.373\n所以這個東西對我來說是一個委員指出非常重要的就是在應用面我們更應該加強落地這個部分那我們當然也有其他的AI計畫在做這方面好啦那個副主委我真的覺得我個人覺得說從學界來到這個地方我們不知道只有理論當你握有這個權利的時候其實你可以好好把你認為你覺得很無奈台灣應該的發展方向你們都有你們的mind但是你們的action你們的action更不要說innovation什麼AI的內閣\n\n10:24.440 --> 10:24.480\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.308,"end":1.349,"text":"柯志恩,召委,質詢。"},{"start":18.522,"end":31.822,"text":"林副主委,說實在我還是延續孟凱的這個談話我是非常遺憾今天你們的吳主委沒有到因為今天召委排的一個非常重要的科技發展那我們本來是希望能夠就教於吳主委"},{"start":32.904,"end":33.064,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":56.265,"end":72.791,"text":"對 因為他認為可以透過這樣的一個委員會只要透過每個月所開的這個會議平台裡面還是可以串聯各部會 沒有錯吧你覺得這個目標有達到嗎應該是有達到因為目前整個國科會的相關的科技計畫都是就全國或者各個部會的角度思考"},{"start":73.331,"end":81.378,"text":"是這樣子嗎?但是呢你改之後我還是要提醒我們副主委你覺得你們每個月開的會議當中呢每個部會所長我要問一下你覺得誰最不配合?你們每個月都要開會啊你們說要串流所有各部會跨平台的部會都來討論我們有些相關的特別是重要的科技產業發展你覺得誰最不配合?這個我現在甚至沒有辦法回答你沒有辦法回答?你有參加過嗎?因為我有參加過因為國科會的副主委一定是要參加的是那你知道誰的出席率最低嗎?"},{"start":102.368,"end":110.093,"text":"你沒有辦法回答我告訴你出席率高不高主委有沒有親自現身各部會主委有沒有的主管有沒有親自現身其實是代表這個委員會的被重要我可以幫你整理一下最不配合的你們總共開了9次會議這些人"},{"start":117.017,"end":138.828,"text":"每次都沒有出席過,都是找人來代位出席接下來跟你們最有關係的國發會目前為止是最有關係,跟我們的科技部是最有關係的他也是7次找人出席,更不要說其他的你看看,你們當初所認為可以跨部會的這樣子的一個可以來整合串流就這些人沒有一個人把你們當作一回事,你會不會覺得很心寒啊"},{"start":140.336,"end":152.426,"text":"我想有很多出席這個部分還有很大的空間還有很大應該努力的空間你看吧所以你們今天主委不出席到我們這邊委員會當中你們所開的會議裡面你們各處會的一個主管也都是派人來參加這個對於你們當初吳主委認為可以透過這個所謂的國科會來串流讓各部會有跨部會的討論其實這個目的是沒有達到的這一點我要跟林主委充分的表達數據會說話接下來我們來看一下"},{"start":167.839,"end":178.789,"text":"在我們2019年的時候我們全國科學技術的會議當中我們把人才的培育是認為是非常重要我想這個副主委是來自於學界所以你認為我們國科會目前為止對育才、留才、攬才有到你們所當初規劃的目標嗎?"},{"start":185.173,"end":185.654,"text":"主委 先看數據再說"},{"start":201.783,"end":201.843,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":219.173,"end":222.097,"text":"與2020年比起的到2023年的倒退再往下來看你特別提到的我們國科會所做的你看我們目前為止近10年來我們的STEM對不對我們的Science,Technology,Engineering,Mathematics這幾個"},{"start":234.695,"end":237.839,"text":"10年來我們這些STEM我們認為是主管我們科技發展的10年來少的10萬我們再往下來看還有我們外國專業人員可以聘僱的你看從106到現在逐年的降低這是我們認為人才懶才非常重要的當然人才更不要說那時候在我當"},{"start":254.577,"end":270.954,"text":"委員的時候我們提出了一個LIF的計畫希望能夠把海外人員來有一個橋接這項我想副主委應該非常的清楚只有我們4年花了4億多回台那時候我們就質疑這樣的這個有效性只留下的97個人我們再往下看所以這一連串的下來"},{"start":272.935,"end":295.555,"text":"副主委,你真的還是覺得我們人才、懶財、育才﹐達到你當初所認為的規劃方向嗎?還不夠,還不夠而且誠如剛剛委員指出來的這個其實當然有很多原因那這些原因其實我們必須要非常積極改善台灣工作的環境就是說以往我們請人家回來如果台灣的整個工作環境尤其是科技人"},{"start":295.835,"end":317.777,"text":"這大家都會知道但是你們到底做了什麼因為我們的薪資我們各方面跟別人都不太能夠比所以我們報告委員所以我們從去年開始還有從今年開始去年事實上就開始有一千個博士班學生如果我們博士班學生他的薪水是遠比外面做碩士的產業來的低很多那博士班學生是來自於什麼樣的領域你們所培育的博士班學生是來自什麼領域都有"},{"start":318.277,"end":331.074,"text":"當然我們也不能偏會人文 人文也非常重要OK 好 那我們知道嘛 國會國際的發展我們今天就focus在我們的科技發展你看我們整體計畫當中 你說博士班的培育我也完全R&D當然非常的重要啊但是你看我們基礎研究的這個能量 你看看"},{"start":333.957,"end":355.592,"text":"日本大概可以完全占整體的研發經費的12 包括你1000個博士都是屬於這樣的經費日本12.6我們台灣7.45只比中國大陸多一點點而已你跟其他國家完全是沒有辦法10年前還有9.8你現在只有7點多你告訴我你投入這麼多這個數據會說話你放在基礎研究上面基礎研究是一切的根本"},{"start":356.252,"end":371.429,"text":"主委 是不是這個樣子這一點我非常謝謝那個委員提出這一點這一點我日動到國科會之前曾經就寫過那時候大概7.0左右那其中一個非常重要的原因是國家投入基礎研究的整體預算太低"},{"start":371.829,"end":372.97,"text":"所以我們很希望能夠提高基礎研究本身"},{"start":395.327,"end":421.382,"text":"主委還特別提到說除了這個東西沒有辦法我們希望民間他真的下任之後到民間去問他今天沒有來不然我很想問問他你如何讓民間也能夠投注在我們所謂的基礎研究你可以看得出來有多少投到民間基礎研究到目前為止不到一成所以你們都知道問題所在你們都已經在這個位置上面但是你都提不出最好的一個政策這是我覺得非常可惜的地方更何況我們現在每個人都說AI AI"},{"start":423.563,"end":423.703,"text":"我想那個"},{"start":453.031,"end":472.948,"text":"科學委員其實也在學校當過高級主管我們如果整個完全只是改名這個絕對犯貪補犯也沒有辦法達到那AI真正的尤其在這幾年CHOP GPP的開始就是生成式的它會滲透到各個領域的應用所以應該是保原來的領域的應用非常重要那你把"},{"start":473.809,"end":474.41,"text":"我們還是繼續看實質的部分"},{"start":490.302,"end":490.682,"text":"在各個部會的運用我們都積極參與沒有"},{"start":517.06,"end":528.423,"text":"你沒有積極參與你有積極參與當然大家給你的回饋非常的少你甚至有很多的民眾看到你的指引之後大家給你看事實的狀況只會告訴你這個不行那個不行然後都沒有告訴你什麼叫做行的你看看你們的指引我把它拿出來看吧不得取代什麼禁止使用不得像生成的部分亦不得怎麼樣這是民眾所反映的嘛這個不行那個不行你就好像前面有個繩索半馬索一樣你沒有告訴我什麼才是行這是國科會我們認為最需要的AI的參考的指引"},{"start":546.809,"end":552.833,"text":"我沒有辦法跟你談機密文件我光是一個指引把它擺出來你希望每個人給國科會能夠有一些的回饋問題是你這樣的一個指引沒有辦法給回饋這就如我剛所提到的很多大自然運銷我們台灣都認為AI"},{"start":570.683,"end":570.863,"text":"我講委員．"},{"start":595.907,"end":609.373,"text":"所以這個東西對我來說是一個委員指出非常重要的就是在應用面我們更應該加強落地這個部分那我們當然也有其他的AI計畫在做這方面好啦那個副主委我真的覺得我個人覺得說從學界來到這個地方我們不知道只有理論當你握有這個權利的時候其實你可以好好把你認為你覺得很無奈台灣應該的發展方向你們都有你們的mind但是你們的action你們的action更不要說innovation什麼AI的內閣"},{"start":624.44,"end":624.48,"text":"主席"}]}}}}