{"id":151096,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151096","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8a1755e5400c0e6ace29a5a1c70e7f4a895f5f60d28b50f8ba9b0039caa7a61aa97a5015985c895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:51:31 - 10:04:20","影片長度":"00:12:49","會議時間":"2024-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「我國國際合作發展具體成效暨未來目標」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-12"},"date":"2024-04-15","duration":769,"end_time":"2024-04-15T10:04:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-15T09:51:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":158,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時51分）好，謝謝主席，麻煩吳釗燮部長。"],["主席：請吳部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：委員早安。"],["王委員定宇：部長早安。華爾街日報有一個標題你看過嗎？「世界上最難外交工作之一即將開缺！」就是苦笑啦！你對這個標題有沒有什麼評論？"],["吳部長釗燮：欸……沒有評論。"],["王委員定宇：前面五個字「世界上最難」，這是一個很大的……我也不能講說……當然不是外交部長，而是我們整個外交部的同仁。像我們常到外面去看到我們駐外的人員到晚上還要負責打電報的，半夜還是要回去趕報告等等。事實上外交部大概是我們各部會面臨真實戰爭的類似狀況──外交戰場，所以它把你描述成「世界上最難外交工作」，你總是替我們外交部整體同仁……你對這句話有什麼感受？"],["吳部長釗燮：對這句話我的確感觸很深，的確，我在外交部已經超過6年，但是如果外交部有什麼成就的話，這個不是因為我個人，而是我們外交部整體的團隊。我很自豪，我在過去這六年多跟一個非常堅強的外交團隊一起努力地工作，我想我們臺灣也應該非常地自豪，我們有一個非常強的外交團隊。"],["王委員定宇：這一點，我們到各地看，我們現在駐外的人員或外交部回部辦公的人員，老、中、青銜接得還不錯，但是因為它把你形容成「最難」，其實坦白講「最難的外交工作」意思就是成就很難達成，挫折非常多嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以六年多來的任期，我們外交部替我們臺灣的外交達成的成就，我想就讓外界來說，有沒有比較遺憾的事情？"],["吳部長釗燮：遺憾當然有，我想我們國人都感到非常痛心的就是中國在國際社會上面的打壓無所不在，尤其是我們邦交國所面臨的壓力是最大的一塊，這些只要是中國得逞的時候就是我們外交部感到非常遺憾的時候。"],["王委員定宇：那是得逞的嘛！那樣大概不只是遺憾啦！有一些遺憾是，明明可以做到，卻差了那麼一點點，那個叫遺憾，有沒有這種事情？像國際組織啦、邦交國啦，有沒有在你這6年任內覺得就差那麼一點點的事？"],["吳部長釗燮：當然有，但也不適合在這邊講，就是說有時候沒有達到，並不表示永遠沒有辦法達到。一時沒有辦法達到的話，如果說我們持續努力的話……"],["王委員定宇：外交是累積的，其實每一任或者每一個時期的外交人員，那個累積的成果或者是累積的困難，都是後續要去承接的。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：成就當然不管跟各主流國家的互動，或者在國際的能見度，或者納入多邊安全的系統，或者你去看所有的2 plus 2，或者所有的高峰會議，很難得看到臺灣幾乎都是在關心的前三名的議題，所以我想成就讓外人來說，但我倒是期待外交部可能要去整理一下，有一些東西大概是哪個點會讓我們可惜。還有一個月到520，有沒有要注意的警訊？"],["吳部長釗燮：目前看起來是還好，但是因為520是一個重要的節點，所以我們外交部這邊也非常地謹慎在處理，這段時間……"],["王委員定宇：對於520，我剛剛看到有委員在問，你剛剛講各國大概有四百多位的外賓會來參加。"],["吳部長釗燮：到目前為止統計的，已經confirm的。"],["王委員定宇：我問的是比較具體的，就是有沒有元首、副元首等級的？"],["吳部長釗燮：有，我們的友邦有很多。"],["王委員定宇：元首會來？"],["吳部長釗燮：都是元首、副元首。"],["王委員定宇：大概幾個國家？"],["吳部長釗燮：8個。"],["王委員定宇：8個國家的元首或副元首會到。有沒有總理、副總理等級的？"],["吳部長釗燮：就是那個……"],["王委員定宇：涵蓋在內？"],["吳部長釗燮：涵蓋在內。"],["王委員定宇：好，那議長、副議長等級的呢？國會團，也就是議長等級的。"],["吳部長釗燮：國會團很多，但是……"],["王委員定宇：有沒有議長？有沒有議長、副議長等級的？speaker of the house總是有一定的意義嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有。"],["王委員定宇：這次沒有？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有。"],["王委員定宇：所以大概都是國會團、友好團等等。"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以大概8國的元首或副元首、總理或副總理，另外還有國會團加起來有四百多位。"],["吳部長釗燮：然後還有外交部長帶來的。"],["王委員定宇：好，還有外交部長。剛剛講，你判斷在未來至少在520前沒有特殊的警訊，因為以往我們都會問燈號，我知道你很久開始就不回答燈號了。那我再問，在這最後一個月，有沒有期末的成果展現？有沒有好消息？"],["吳部長釗燮：目前是沒有，但是也非常坦承地跟委員報告，我們外交部為什麼會這麼難，就是我們要守成，這個部分就不是很容易。如果說在未來的一個月、兩個月之內，如果沒有其他這些特殊的警訊的話，對我們外交部來講，這個就是一個好的事情。"],["王委員定宇：沒有警訊就是好消息，如果有所突破那就是另外一層次的事情。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：好，我移到下一個話題。","中國籍配偶鄭子娟嫁來臺灣之後離婚，再跟他原來的何姓前夫復婚，復婚之後結合福建的福青幫，以一萬塊臺幣左右的價格收購臺灣護照，再以一萬美金，就是30倍，把它出讓給需要隱匿身分進入歐美國家的人，大概50本，目前查到是這樣子。這個犯罪模式有幾個我們要注意的，第一個，需要隱匿身分的人，當然就是有問題的人嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：否則他拿自己國家的護照出去就好了嘛！他要隱匿他中國籍的身分，或者是隱匿他個人的身分，所以這裡面有人定義成，對歐洲或者其他民主國家……"],["吳部長釗燮：會造成傷害。"],["王委員定宇：是一個國安跟治安的雙重問題。我現在要請教我們的外交首長吳部長，你知道臺灣人民或者政府的努力，我們在國際上贏得的信任程度高，所以在義大利有9個國家可以快速通關，臺灣是在以色列、法國、日本等國其中之一。在日本，我們可以免簽，我們甚至在前一段時間討論到美國的優先通關，也就是Preclearance（預先通關）在臺灣設置，很多這些措施，獲得那麼多免簽國是來自於臺灣可被信任、臺灣旅客文明程度高，不會隨便跳船、不會隨便亂弄。","這個案件的影響，國際媒體報導出來，我們外交部有沒有收到其他國家，這個不一定是邦交國喔！可能是主要民主國家，像義大利，或者歐盟對臺灣就比較禮遇嘛！有沒有收到這樣子的關注或關切？"],["吳部長釗燮：因為我沒有辦法去關注到所有的細節，我請我們領務局的同仁來簡單說明。"],["王委員定宇：沒關係，業管單位可以來講一下。有沒有相關國家關心，我給你們的護照方便耶，結果你們的護照被人家賣了，變成真的護照、假的人，這對我們臺灣的旅客在國際的移動有沒有影響？"],["陳副局長尚友：報告委員，這個案子基本上如果是據報載有50本的話，我剛剛已經向羅美玲委員……"],["王委員定宇：根據莫非定律，或者是蟑螂定律，你看到一隻蟑螂家裡就會有千千萬萬隻。"],["陳副局長尚友：對，很多東西、很多情資是本局提供的，但是就委員的垂詢，事實上幾乎是每天，我們都會收到外館的回報，就是有關一些個案的情形。甚至我們的駐外人員會會同當地的官員去詢問，假設這個人的護照在機場……"],["王委員定宇：你知道，這個犯罪模式是，買了臺灣的護照，去對對看他們中國籍人士，誰長得比較像，它不是偽造喔！"],["陳副局長尚友：對。"],["王委員定宇：他就是持這本護照直接進出喔！"],["陳副局長尚友：是。"],["王委員定宇：這本護照是真的，完全沒有偽造喔！"],["陳副局長尚友：對，所以……"],["王委員定宇：這個除了會影響我們臺灣的國際聲譽以外，對於我們臺灣的遊客，本來是方便，我護照拿了到日本就進去了嘛！"],["陳副局長尚友：是。"],["王委員定宇：到美國免簽嘛！線上辦就好了等等。這個案件如果再一再一再的發生，你的判斷，會不會影響我們臺灣護照在國際的評等？"],["陳副局長尚友：報告委員，因為我國護照的安全係數是非常高的，偽造不方便，才會變成直接冒用……"],["王委員定宇：對呀！"],["陳副局長尚友：直接冒用，因為對岸的人民跟我們事實上某種程度長得比較像……"],["王委員定宇：不是，你這樣講不對，其實某些西方人看到亞洲人都覺得長得很像……"],["陳副局長尚友：覺得都是一樣的，是……"],["王委員定宇：所以他有一個冒用的方便性……"],["陳副局長尚友：是。"],["王委員定宇：但是我現在的意思是犯罪集團永遠都在犯罪，就像你剛剛講只有50本，我不認為啦！"],["陳副局長尚友：不只。"],["王委員定宇：那是你們撈到了50本，現在就是我們怎麼樣確保我們臺灣民眾在國際移動間這本護照的評等，因為買賣護照1本30萬，這20、30年來都有聽說啦！"],["陳副局長尚友：對。"],["王委員定宇：東南亞也有發生過，這件事情有沒有其他國家關心過？"],["陳副局長尚友：目前就本局的資訊來講，倒是還沒有，但是我們國內的檢調機關、警察機關及本局已經有一個非常好的溝通模式……"],["王委員定宇：根據護照條例，買賣護照供他人冒用的話，最重判七年嘛！"],["陳副局長尚友：對，一年以上，七年以下。"],["王委員定宇：對，最重判七年，我覺得一般在賣護照的人可能好像覺得就像3,000元賣一個帳戶讓人家去洗錢一樣，其實這個刑責不算輕，鄭子娟這個中配的犯罪集團現在是被以組織犯罪條例來查辦，也是重罪，我覺得外交部可能要加強宣導這個部分……"],["陳副局長尚友：是。"],["王委員定宇：另外，對於護照，申請護照是國民的權利，他把護照賣給別人表示他自己根本不用，你知道買賣護照是找那些沒有護照的人，請他去辦護照賣給他，不是買那個有在用的，我自己要國際旅行我怎麼賣你，我賣你我怎麼辦？所以他找的是那個不移動的、不國際旅遊的人，所以這怎麼樣結合出入境管局，透過數據的管理，一千抽一或一萬抽一的查核，去想辦法遏止這個犯罪模式，因為這個犯罪模式不僅是違法、傷害國際聲譽，而且未來如果累積到一個量，我們國人以後就得乖乖排隊了，這會影響到我們出入境、我們國人在國際上受到的待遇。","最後我跟主席借1分鐘，請教部長，剛才我看到幾位同仁都問到蕭美琴副總統當選人在捷克，中國派出的是武官，軍事人員，軍事人員開著中國外館的車跟，跟到什麼時候被發現？為了跟上他闖紅燈，差點發生車禍，被發現那個車的車牌是中國駐捷克外交人員的，車上的兩個人是中國的軍事人員，這個是國際媒體揭露的，我請教部長，我們臺灣方面什麼時候知道這個事情？是事件發生的當下，還是之前就知道他們有派人在跟？"],["吳部長釗燮：是之後。"],["王委員定宇：之後，好，目前只有在捷克有這個事情嗎？我不認為中國會只有在捷克。"],["吳部長釗燮：在捷克是有媒體報導這個狀況，其他的地方……"],["王委員定宇：波蘭、立陶宛、歐盟……"],["吳部長釗燮：其他的地方，有瞭解到可能有一些跟蹤，但是比較隱密的方式，可能。"],["王委員定宇：好，當地國現在怎麼處理，這是侵犯他國內政耶！"],["吳部長釗燮：如果沒有造成任何危安狀況的話，通常都是我們會繼續去注意，也不適合去跟地主國做更多的接洽。"],["王委員定宇：現在捷克這個地主國的外交部有約……"],["吳部長釗燮：他們正在處理當中。"],["王委員定宇：對，它有約中國的駐捷克大使，然後我看他們國會外交委員會的主席要求驅逐，有沒有新的進度？"],["吳部長釗燮：目前並沒有。"],["王委員定宇：好，有新的進度，我們希望隨時知道……"],["吳部長釗燮：好。"],["王委員定宇：因為這個不僅僅是安全，而且剛好見證到國際上自由、民主、遵守國際規範的國家與不遵守國際規範的獨裁國家在國際形勢的差別，對臺灣來講，這是一個，我不能講發揮，是一個必須關注，而且跟當地國溝通的事件，我們希望外交部加油，好，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：是，這涉及到兩個事情，一個是rule of law，委員知道，一個是rules-based international order，在所有的民主國家都把這個當成很重要的，但是中國都是違背的。"],["王委員定宇：這是大事情，好，謝謝部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：謝謝王定宇委員，部長請回，謝謝。","下面請馬文君委員就發言臺，請，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-12","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","羅美玲","王定宇","陳冠廷","洪申翰","林憶君","賴士葆","黃國昌","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐巧芯","陳永康","黃仁"],"page_start":73,"meetingDate":["2024-04-15"],"gazette_id":"1132701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「我國國際合作發展具體成效暨未來目標」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132701_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"151096","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151096","tool":"pyannote","id":"151096-pyannote"},"job_id":"I0qgaN49KEjv82kI","queued_at":"2024-06-01 11:02:37","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-01 11:03:59","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151096"},{"time":"2024-06-01 11:04:00","msg":"downloading 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00:00:03,590\n謝謝主席,麻煩吳釗燮部長請吳部長華爾街日報有一個標題你有看過嗎?世界上最難的外交工作之一即將開缺這苦笑啦你對這個標題有沒有什麼評論沒有評論\n\n2\n00:00:30,305 --> 00:00:52,779\n前面四個字事實上最難這是一個很大的我也不能講說當然不是外交部長而是一個我們整個外交部的同仁像我們常常到外面去看到我們駐外的人員到晚上還要負責打電報的半夜還是要趕回去打報告等等事實上外交部是我們大概各部會是最面臨真實\n\n3\n00:00:54,741 --> 00:00:57,602\n對這句話的確感觸很深的確我在外交部已經超過6年\n\n4\n00:01:11,688 --> 00:01:34,621\n但是如果說外交部有什麼樣的這個成就的話這個不是因為我個人而是因為我們外交部整體的這個團隊那我很自豪就是說在過去這裡有點多跟一個非常堅強的一個外交的團隊一起努力的工作那我想我們臺灣也應該非常的自豪我們有一個非常強的一個外交的團隊我們到各地看齁我們現在駐外的人員或我們外交部回部辦公的人員\n\n5\n00:01:35,481 --> 00:01:58,150\n老中青銜接的還不錯但因為他把你形成形容成最難其實坦白講最難的外交工作意思就是成就很難達成挫折非常多嘛是所以6年多來的任期我們外交部替我們台灣的外交達成的成就我想讓外界來說有沒有比較遺憾的事情\n\n6\n00:02:00,304 --> 00:02:23,405\n遺憾當然有啦那個我想我們國人都感到非常痛心的就是說中國在國際社會上面的這個打壓無所不在尤其是我們的這個邦交國所面臨的這個壓力是最大的一塊那這些只要是中國他得逞的時候就是我們外交部感到非常遺憾的時候那個是得逞的嘛那個大概不只是遺憾啦\n\n7\n00:02:24,426 --> 00:02:33,761\n但是有一些遺憾是明明可以做到卻差了那麼一點點那個叫遺憾啦還有一種事情國際組織啊邦交國啦\n\n8\n00:02:34,847 --> 00:02:36,188\n外交是累積的,其實每一任\n\n9\n00:02:54,824 --> 00:03:22,335\n或者每一個時期的外交人員那個累積的成果或者是累積的困難都是後續要去承接的那成就當然不管跟各主流國家的互動或者在國際的能見度或者納入多邊安全的系統或者你去看所有的2plus2或者所有的高峰會議很難得看到台灣幾乎都是在關心的前三名的議題所以我講成就讓外人來說但是我倒期待\n\n10\n00:03:22,955 --> 00:03:34,971\n外交部可能要去整理一下有一些東西大概是哪個點會讓我們可惜那還有一個月到520有沒有要注意的警訊\n\n11\n00:03:36,857 --> 00:03:58,704\n目前看起來是還好但是因為那個520是一個重要的一個節點所以我們外交部這邊也非常的這種謹慎在處理我520我剛看到有委員在問各國你剛才講大概有400多位的外賓會來參加已經confirm的那我問的是比較具體的就是有沒有元首負元首等級的\n\n12\n00:03:59,885 --> 00:04:13,871\n有,我們的友邦有很多,都是元首、副元首大概幾個國家?8個8個國家的元首或副元首會到有沒有總理、副總理等級的?就是涵蓋在內那議長、副議長等級的?\n\n13\n00:04:19,188 --> 00:04:37,493\n國會團,就是議長等級國會團很多有沒有議長、副議長級的總之speakerofthehouse那個是有一定的意義嗎?這次沒有所以大概都是國會團、友好團等等所以大概八國的元首、副元首、總理、副總理那另外國會團加起來400多位\n\n14\n00:04:39,393 --> 00:04:59,068\n還有那個外交部長帶來的還有外交部長那剛才講你判斷在未來的至少這520前目前沒有特殊的警訊因為以往我們都會問燈號我知道你很久開始就不回答燈號了那我再問在這最後一個月有沒有期末的成果展現有沒有好消息\n\n15\n00:05:04,867 --> 00:05:28,060\n目前是沒有但是也非常坦誠的跟委員報告就是說我們外交部為什麼會這麼難就是我們要守成這個部分就是不是很容易那如果說在未來的一個月兩個月之內如果說沒有其他的這些特殊的警訊的話對我們外交部來講這個就是一個好的事情沒有警訊就是好消息那如果有所突破那是另外一層次的事情我移到下一個話題\n\n16\n00:05:29,221 --> 00:05:45,389\n那個中國籍配偶鄭紫娟嫁來台灣之後離婚再跟他原來的核心前夫復婚復婚之後呢結合福建的福清幫以一萬塊台幣左右的價格收購台灣護照再以一萬美金就30倍把他出讓給\n\n17\n00:05:46,810 --> 00:06:14,857\n需要隱匿身份進入歐美國家的人大概50本目前查到是這樣子這個犯罪模式有幾個我們要注意的第一個需要隱匿身份的人當然就是有問題的人嘛他拿自己國家護照出去就好了嘛他要隱匿他中國籍的身份或者隱匿他個人的身份所以這裡面有人定義成對歐洲或者其他民主國家是一個國安跟治安的雙重問題那我現在要請教我們的外交首長吳部長\n\n18\n00:06:16,717 --> 00:06:45,737\n你知道臺灣人民或者政府的努力我們在國際上贏得的信任程度高所以在義大利有9個國家可以快速通關臺灣是在以色列法國日本其中之一在日本我們可以免簽我們甚至於前一段時間討論到美國的這個優先通關預先通關在臺灣設置很多這些措施或者那麼多免簽國是來自於臺灣可被信任\n\n19\n00:06:46,437 --> 00:06:53,785\n台灣旅客文明程度高不會隨便跳船不會隨便亂弄這個案件的影響國際媒體報導出來\n\n20\n00:06:58,103 --> 00:07:15,934\n我們外交部有沒有收到其他國家這不一定是邦交國可能是主要民主國家你像義大利啊或者歐盟對台灣就比較禮遇嘛有沒有收到這樣子的關注或關切因為我沒有辦法去關注到所有的這個細節那我請我們的領務局的同仁來簡單說一下有沒有相關國家關心說欸我給你們護照方便欸那結果你們護照被人家賣了變真的護照假的人\n\n21\n00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:44,271\n就對我們臺灣的旅客在國際的移動有沒有影響報告委員這個案子基本上如果說據報宅那50本我剛才已經向羅美林委員根據墨菲定律啦對或者蟑螂定律你看到一隻蟑螂家裡就有千千萬萬的很多東西很多情資是本局提供的但是就委員的垂詢事實上\n\n22\n00:07:45,631 --> 00:08:09,599\n幾乎是每天我們都會做到外館一個回報就是說有關於一些個案的情形那甚至我們的駐外人員會會同當地的官員去詢問假設這一個人護照在機場你知道他這個犯罪模式是買了台灣的護照去對對看他們中國幾人是誰長得比較像他不是偽照喔他就是持這本護照直接進出喔這個護照是真的喔完全沒有偽照喔\n\n23\n00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:28,196\n這個除了會影響我們台灣的國際聲譽以外對我們台灣的遊客本來方便啊我護照拿了到日本就進去了嘛到美國免簽嘛線上辦就好了嘛等等這個案件如果再一再一再的發生你的判斷會不會影響我們台灣護照在國際的平等\n\n24\n00:08:31,315 --> 00:08:51,247\n委員因為我們國內的護照我國的護照他的安全係數是非常高的偽造不方便才會變成直接冒用那直接冒用因為對岸的人民跟我們事實上某種程度上長得比較像你這樣講不對實在某些西方人看到亞洲人都覺得長得很像都是一樣的所以他有一個冒用的方便性但是我現在意思是說\n\n25\n00:08:52,228 --> 00:09:07,465\n犯罪集團永遠都在犯罪就像你講只有50本我不認為啦那是你們撈到了50本現在就是說我們怎麼樣確保我們臺灣民眾在國際移動間這本護照的平等因為買賣護照一本30萬這二三十年來都有聽說啦東南亞也有發生過嘛\n\n26\n00:09:11,289 --> 00:09:24,118\n這件事情有沒有其他國家關心這個事情過目前就本局的資訊來講倒是還沒有但是我們國內的一個檢調機關警察機關跟本局已經有一個非常好的溝通模式這個根據護照條例\n\n27\n00:09:27,481 --> 00:09:41,836\n買賣護照供他人冒用的話最終判7年嘛對一年以上7年以下對最終判7年嘛那這個我覺得一般在賣護照的人可能好像覺得就像3000塊錢賣一本那個帳戶讓人家去洗錢一樣其實這個刑責不算輕是\n\n28\n00:09:42,076 --> 00:10:05,708\n那這個犯罪鄭紫娟這個這個中配的犯罪集團事實上是被組織犯罪條例來查辦也是重罪我覺得外交部可能要加強宣導這個部分另外對於護照申請的護照是人民國民的權利可是他護照賣給別人表他自己根本不用嘛你知道買賣護照是找那些沒有護照的人請他去辦護照賣給他\n\n29\n00:10:07,625 --> 00:10:20,405\n不是買那個有在用的我自己要國際旅行的我怎麼賣你我賣你我怎麼辦所以他找的是那個不移動的不國際旅遊的人所以這怎麼樣結合出入境管局透過數據的管理\n\n30\n00:10:22,022 --> 00:10:23,242\n我最後跟主席借一分鐘請教部長\n\n31\n00:10:43,393 --> 00:10:57,008\n剛才我看到幾位同仁都問到蕭美琴副總統當選人在捷克中國派出的是武官喔軍事人員軍事人員開著外管的車中國外管的車跟到什麼時候\n\n32\n00:10:58,550 --> 00:11:16,344\n他為了跟上他闖紅燈差點發生車禍被發現那個車的車牌是中國駐捷克的外交人員車上的兩個人是中國的軍事人員好這個是國際媒體揭露的我請教部長我們台灣方面什麼時候知道這個事情\n\n33\n00:11:17,825 --> 00:11:43,037\n是事件發生的當下還是之前就知道他們有派人在跟?是之後那目前只有捷克有這個事情嗎?我不認為中國會只有捷克吧?在捷克是有媒體報導的這個狀況那其他的地方有了解到說可能有一些跟蹤但是比較隱密的這個方式當帝國現在怎麼處理?\n\n34\n00:11:45,298 --> 00:11:46,298\n現在捷克的地主國外交部有\n\n35\n00:12:03,803 --> 00:12:25,010\n對,他有約中國的駐捷克大使然後我看他們國會的外交委員會的主席要求驅逐有沒有新的進度目前並沒有有新的進度我們希望隨時知道因為這個不僅僅是安全而且剛好見證到在國際自由民主遵守國際規範的國家跟不遵守國際規範的獨裁國家在國際形勢的差別對台灣來講這是一個\n\n36\n00:12:30,091 --> 00:12:47,833\n這涉及到兩個事情一個是RuleofLaw那個委員知道一個是RuleSpaceInternationalOrder那這個在所有的民主國家都把這個當成很重要的但是中國都是違背的是好謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n889\t3590\t謝謝主席,麻煩吳釗燮部長請吳部長華爾街日報有一個標題你有看過嗎?世界上最難的外交工作之一即將開缺這苦笑啦你對這個標題有沒有什麼評論沒有評論\n30305\t52779\t前面四個字事實上最難這是一個很大的我也不能講說當然不是外交部長而是一個我們整個外交部的同仁像我們常常到外面去看到我們駐外的人員到晚上還要負責打電報的半夜還是要趕回去打報告等等事實上外交部是我們大概各部會是最面臨真實\n54741\t57602\t對這句話的確感觸很深的確我在外交部已經超過6年\n71688\t94621\t但是如果說外交部有什麼樣的這個成就的話這個不是因為我個人而是因為我們外交部整體的這個團隊那我很自豪就是說在過去這裡有點多跟一個非常堅強的一個外交的團隊一起努力的工作那我想我們臺灣也應該非常的自豪我們有一個非常強的一個外交的團隊我們到各地看齁我們現在駐外的人員或我們外交部回部辦公的人員\n95481\t118150\t老中青銜接的還不錯但因為他把你形成形容成最難其實坦白講最難的外交工作意思就是成就很難達成挫折非常多嘛是所以6年多來的任期我們外交部替我們台灣的外交達成的成就我想讓外界來說有沒有比較遺憾的事情\n120304\t143405\t遺憾當然有啦那個我想我們國人都感到非常痛心的就是說中國在國際社會上面的這個打壓無所不在尤其是我們的這個邦交國所面臨的這個壓力是最大的一塊那這些只要是中國他得逞的時候就是我們外交部感到非常遺憾的時候那個是得逞的嘛那個大概不只是遺憾啦\n144426\t153761\t但是有一些遺憾是明明可以做到卻差了那麼一點點 那個叫遺憾啦還有一種事情 國際組織啊 邦交國啦\n154847\t156188\t外交是累積的,其實每一任\n174824\t202335\t或者每一個時期的外交人員那個累積的成果或者是累積的困難都是後續要去承接的那成就當然不管跟各主流國家的互動或者在國際的能見度或者納入多邊安全的系統或者你去看所有的2plus2或者所有的高峰會議很難得看到台灣幾乎都是在關心的前三名的議題所以我講成就讓外人來說但是我倒期待\n202955\t214971\t外交部可能要去整理一下有一些東西大概是哪個點會讓我們可惜那還有一個月到520有沒有要注意的警訊\n216857\t238704\t目前看起來是還好但是因為那個520是一個重要的一個節點所以我們外交部這邊也非常的這種謹慎在處理我520我剛看到有委員在問各國你剛才講大概有400多位的外賓會來參加已經confirm的那我問的是比較具體的就是有沒有元首負元首等級的\n239885\t253871\t有,我們的友邦有很多,都是元首、副元首大概幾個國家?8個8個國家的元首或副元首會到有沒有總理、副總理等級的?就是涵蓋在內那議長、副議長等級的?\n259188\t277493\t國會團,就是議長等級國會團很多有沒有議長、副議長級的總之speaker of the house那個是有一定的意義嗎?這次沒有所以大概都是國會團、友好團等等所以大概八國的元首、副元首、總理、副總理那另外國會團加起來400多位\n279393\t299068\t還有那個外交部長帶來的還有外交部長那剛才講你判斷在未來的至少這520前目前沒有特殊的警訊因為以往我們都會問燈號我知道你很久開始就不回答燈號了那我再問在這最後一個月有沒有期末的成果展現有沒有好消息\n304867\t328060\t目前是沒有但是也非常坦誠的跟委員報告就是說我們外交部為什麼會這麼難就是我們要守成這個部分就是不是很容易那如果說在未來的一個月兩個月之內如果說沒有其他的這些特殊的警訊的話對我們外交部來講這個就是一個好的事情沒有警訊就是好消息那如果有所突破那是另外一層次的事情我移到下一個話題\n329221\t345389\t那個中國籍配偶鄭紫娟嫁來台灣之後離婚再跟他原來的核心前夫復婚復婚之後呢結合福建的福清幫以一萬塊台幣左右的價格收購台灣護照再以一萬美金就30倍把他出讓給\n346810\t374857\t需要隱匿身份進入歐美國家的人大概50本目前查到是這樣子這個犯罪模式有幾個我們要注意的第一個需要隱匿身份的人當然就是有問題的人嘛他拿自己國家護照出去就好了嘛他要隱匿他中國籍的身份或者隱匿他個人的身份所以這裡面有人定義成對歐洲或者其他民主國家是一個國安跟治安的雙重問題那我現在要請教我們的外交首長吳部長\n376717\t405737\t你知道臺灣人民或者政府的努力我們在國際上贏得的信任程度高所以在義大利有9個國家可以快速通關臺灣是在以色列法國日本其中之一在日本我們可以免簽我們甚至於前一段時間討論到美國的這個優先通關預先通關在臺灣設置很多這些措施或者那麼多免簽國是來自於臺灣可被信任\n406437\t413785\t台灣旅客文明程度高不會隨便跳船不會隨便亂弄這個案件的影響國際媒體報導出來\n418103\t435934\t我們外交部有沒有收到其他國家這不一定是邦交國可能是主要民主國家你像義大利啊或者歐盟對台灣就比較禮遇嘛有沒有收到這樣子的關注或關切因為我沒有辦法去關注到所有的這個細節那我請我們的領務局的同仁來簡單說一下有沒有相關國家關心說欸我給你們護照方便欸那結果你們護照被人家賣了變真的護照假的人\n445640\t464271\t就對我們臺灣的旅客在國際的移動有沒有影響報告委員這個案子基本上如果說據報宅那50本我剛才已經向羅美林委員根據墨菲定律啦對或者蟑螂定律你看到一隻蟑螂家裡就有千千萬萬的很多東西很多情資是本局提供的但是就委員的垂詢事實上\n465631\t489599\t幾乎是每天我們都會做到外館一個回報就是說有關於一些個案的情形那甚至我們的駐外人員會會同當地的官員去詢問假設這一個人護照在機場你知道他這個犯罪模式是買了台灣的護照去對對看他們中國幾人是誰長得比較像他不是偽照喔他就是持這本護照直接進出喔這個護照是真的喔完全沒有偽照喔\n491560\t508196\t這個除了會影響我們台灣的國際聲譽以外對我們台灣的遊客本來方便啊我護照拿了到日本就進去了嘛到美國免簽嘛線上辦就好了嘛等等這個案件如果再一再一再的發生你的判斷會不會影響我們台灣護照在國際的平等\n511315\t531247\t委員因為我們國內的護照我國的護照他的安全係數是非常高的偽造不方便才會變成直接冒用那直接冒用因為對岸的人民跟我們事實上某種程度上長得比較像你這樣講不對實在某些西方人看到亞洲人都覺得長得很像都是一樣的所以他有一個冒用的方便性但是我現在意思是說\n532228\t547465\t犯罪集團永遠都在犯罪就像你講只有50本我不認為啦那是你們撈到了50本現在就是說我們怎麼樣確保我們臺灣民眾在國際移動間這本護照的平等因為買賣護照一本30萬這二三十年來都有聽說啦東南亞也有發生過嘛\n551289\t564118\t這件事情有沒有其他國家關心這個事情過目前就本局的資訊來講倒是還沒有但是我們國內的一個檢調機關警察機關跟本局已經有一個非常好的溝通模式這個根據護照條例\n567481\t581836\t買賣護照供他人冒用的話最終判7年嘛對一年以上7年以下對最終判7年嘛那這個我覺得一般在賣護照的人可能好像覺得就像3000塊錢賣一本那個帳戶讓人家去洗錢一樣其實這個刑責不算輕是\n582076\t605708\t那這個犯罪鄭紫娟這個這個中配的犯罪集團事實上是被組織犯罪條例來查辦也是重罪我覺得外交部可能要加強宣導這個部分另外對於護照申請的護照是人民國民的權利可是他護照賣給別人表他自己根本不用嘛你知道買賣護照是找那些沒有護照的人請他去辦護照賣給他\n607625\t620405\t不是買那個有在用的我自己要國際旅行的我怎麼賣你我賣你我怎麼辦所以他找的是那個不移動的不國際旅遊的人所以這怎麼樣結合出入境管局透過數據的管理\n622022\t623242\t我最後跟主席借一分鐘請教部長\n643393\t657008\t剛才我看到幾位同仁都問到蕭美琴副總統當選人在捷克中國派出的是武官喔軍事人員軍事人員開著外管的車中國外管的車跟到什麼時候\n658550\t676344\t他為了跟上他闖紅燈差點發生車禍被發現那個車的車牌是中國駐捷克的外交人員車上的兩個人是中國的軍事人員好這個是國際媒體揭露的我請教部長我們台灣方面什麼時候知道這個事情\n677825\t703037\t是事件發生的當下還是之前就知道他們有派人在跟?是之後那目前只有捷克有這個事情嗎?我不認為中國會只有捷克吧?在捷克是有媒體報導的這個狀況那其他的地方有了解到說可能有一些跟蹤但是比較隱密的這個方式當帝國現在怎麼處理?\n705298\t706298\t現在捷克的地主國外交部有\n723803\t745010\t對,他有約中國的駐捷克大使然後我看他們國會的外交委員會的主席要求驅逐有沒有新的進度目前並沒有有新的進度我們希望隨時知道因為這個不僅僅是安全而且剛好見證到在國際自由民主遵守國際規範的國家跟不遵守國際規範的獨裁國家在國際形勢的差別對台灣來講這是一個\n750091\t767833\t這涉及到兩個事情一個是Rule of Law那個委員知道一個是Rule Space International Order那這個在所有的民主國家都把這個當成很重要的但是中國都是違背的是 好 謝謝部長\n","txt":"謝謝主席,麻煩吳釗燮部長請吳部長華爾街日報有一個標題你有看過嗎?世界上最難的外交工作之一即將開缺這苦笑啦你對這個標題有沒有什麼評論沒有評論\n前面四個字事實上最難這是一個很大的我也不能講說當然不是外交部長而是一個我們整個外交部的同仁像我們常常到外面去看到我們駐外的人員到晚上還要負責打電報的半夜還是要趕回去打報告等等事實上外交部是我們大概各部會是最面臨真實\n對這句話的確感觸很深的確我在外交部已經超過6年\n但是如果說外交部有什麼樣的這個成就的話這個不是因為我個人而是因為我們外交部整體的這個團隊那我很自豪就是說在過去這裡有點多跟一個非常堅強的一個外交的團隊一起努力的工作那我想我們臺灣也應該非常的自豪我們有一個非常強的一個外交的團隊我們到各地看齁我們現在駐外的人員或我們外交部回部辦公的人員\n老中青銜接的還不錯但因為他把你形成形容成最難其實坦白講最難的外交工作意思就是成就很難達成挫折非常多嘛是所以6年多來的任期我們外交部替我們台灣的外交達成的成就我想讓外界來說有沒有比較遺憾的事情\n遺憾當然有啦那個我想我們國人都感到非常痛心的就是說中國在國際社會上面的這個打壓無所不在尤其是我們的這個邦交國所面臨的這個壓力是最大的一塊那這些只要是中國他得逞的時候就是我們外交部感到非常遺憾的時候那個是得逞的嘛那個大概不只是遺憾啦\n但是有一些遺憾是明明可以做到卻差了那麼一點點 那個叫遺憾啦還有一種事情 國際組織啊 邦交國啦\n外交是累積的,其實每一任\n或者每一個時期的外交人員那個累積的成果或者是累積的困難都是後續要去承接的那成就當然不管跟各主流國家的互動或者在國際的能見度或者納入多邊安全的系統或者你去看所有的2plus2或者所有的高峰會議很難得看到台灣幾乎都是在關心的前三名的議題所以我講成就讓外人來說但是我倒期待\n外交部可能要去整理一下有一些東西大概是哪個點會讓我們可惜那還有一個月到520有沒有要注意的警訊\n目前看起來是還好但是因為那個520是一個重要的一個節點所以我們外交部這邊也非常的這種謹慎在處理我520我剛看到有委員在問各國你剛才講大概有400多位的外賓會來參加已經confirm的那我問的是比較具體的就是有沒有元首負元首等級的\n有,我們的友邦有很多,都是元首、副元首大概幾個國家?8個8個國家的元首或副元首會到有沒有總理、副總理等級的?就是涵蓋在內那議長、副議長等級的?\n國會團,就是議長等級國會團很多有沒有議長、副議長級的總之speaker of the house那個是有一定的意義嗎?這次沒有所以大概都是國會團、友好團等等所以大概八國的元首、副元首、總理、副總理那另外國會團加起來400多位\n還有那個外交部長帶來的還有外交部長那剛才講你判斷在未來的至少這520前目前沒有特殊的警訊因為以往我們都會問燈號我知道你很久開始就不回答燈號了那我再問在這最後一個月有沒有期末的成果展現有沒有好消息\n目前是沒有但是也非常坦誠的跟委員報告就是說我們外交部為什麼會這麼難就是我們要守成這個部分就是不是很容易那如果說在未來的一個月兩個月之內如果說沒有其他的這些特殊的警訊的話對我們外交部來講這個就是一個好的事情沒有警訊就是好消息那如果有所突破那是另外一層次的事情我移到下一個話題\n那個中國籍配偶鄭紫娟嫁來台灣之後離婚再跟他原來的核心前夫復婚復婚之後呢結合福建的福清幫以一萬塊台幣左右的價格收購台灣護照再以一萬美金就30倍把他出讓給\n需要隱匿身份進入歐美國家的人大概50本目前查到是這樣子這個犯罪模式有幾個我們要注意的第一個需要隱匿身份的人當然就是有問題的人嘛他拿自己國家護照出去就好了嘛他要隱匿他中國籍的身份或者隱匿他個人的身份所以這裡面有人定義成對歐洲或者其他民主國家是一個國安跟治安的雙重問題那我現在要請教我們的外交首長吳部長\n你知道臺灣人民或者政府的努力我們在國際上贏得的信任程度高所以在義大利有9個國家可以快速通關臺灣是在以色列法國日本其中之一在日本我們可以免簽我們甚至於前一段時間討論到美國的這個優先通關預先通關在臺灣設置很多這些措施或者那麼多免簽國是來自於臺灣可被信任\n台灣旅客文明程度高不會隨便跳船不會隨便亂弄這個案件的影響國際媒體報導出來\n我們外交部有沒有收到其他國家這不一定是邦交國可能是主要民主國家你像義大利啊或者歐盟對台灣就比較禮遇嘛有沒有收到這樣子的關注或關切因為我沒有辦法去關注到所有的這個細節那我請我們的領務局的同仁來簡單說一下有沒有相關國家關心說欸我給你們護照方便欸那結果你們護照被人家賣了變真的護照假的人\n就對我們臺灣的旅客在國際的移動有沒有影響報告委員這個案子基本上如果說據報宅那50本我剛才已經向羅美林委員根據墨菲定律啦對或者蟑螂定律你看到一隻蟑螂家裡就有千千萬萬的很多東西很多情資是本局提供的但是就委員的垂詢事實上\n幾乎是每天我們都會做到外館一個回報就是說有關於一些個案的情形那甚至我們的駐外人員會會同當地的官員去詢問假設這一個人護照在機場你知道他這個犯罪模式是買了台灣的護照去對對看他們中國幾人是誰長得比較像他不是偽照喔他就是持這本護照直接進出喔這個護照是真的喔完全沒有偽照喔\n這個除了會影響我們台灣的國際聲譽以外對我們台灣的遊客本來方便啊我護照拿了到日本就進去了嘛到美國免簽嘛線上辦就好了嘛等等這個案件如果再一再一再的發生你的判斷會不會影響我們台灣護照在國際的平等\n委員因為我們國內的護照我國的護照他的安全係數是非常高的偽造不方便才會變成直接冒用那直接冒用因為對岸的人民跟我們事實上某種程度上長得比較像你這樣講不對實在某些西方人看到亞洲人都覺得長得很像都是一樣的所以他有一個冒用的方便性但是我現在意思是說\n犯罪集團永遠都在犯罪就像你講只有50本我不認為啦那是你們撈到了50本現在就是說我們怎麼樣確保我們臺灣民眾在國際移動間這本護照的平等因為買賣護照一本30萬這二三十年來都有聽說啦東南亞也有發生過嘛\n這件事情有沒有其他國家關心這個事情過目前就本局的資訊來講倒是還沒有但是我們國內的一個檢調機關警察機關跟本局已經有一個非常好的溝通模式這個根據護照條例\n買賣護照供他人冒用的話最終判7年嘛對一年以上7年以下對最終判7年嘛那這個我覺得一般在賣護照的人可能好像覺得就像3000塊錢賣一本那個帳戶讓人家去洗錢一樣其實這個刑責不算輕是\n那這個犯罪鄭紫娟這個這個中配的犯罪集團事實上是被組織犯罪條例來查辦也是重罪我覺得外交部可能要加強宣導這個部分另外對於護照申請的護照是人民國民的權利可是他護照賣給別人表他自己根本不用嘛你知道買賣護照是找那些沒有護照的人請他去辦護照賣給他\n不是買那個有在用的我自己要國際旅行的我怎麼賣你我賣你我怎麼辦所以他找的是那個不移動的不國際旅遊的人所以這怎麼樣結合出入境管局透過數據的管理\n我最後跟主席借一分鐘請教部長\n剛才我看到幾位同仁都問到蕭美琴副總統當選人在捷克中國派出的是武官喔軍事人員軍事人員開著外管的車中國外管的車跟到什麼時候\n他為了跟上他闖紅燈差點發生車禍被發現那個車的車牌是中國駐捷克的外交人員車上的兩個人是中國的軍事人員好這個是國際媒體揭露的我請教部長我們台灣方面什麼時候知道這個事情\n是事件發生的當下還是之前就知道他們有派人在跟?是之後那目前只有捷克有這個事情嗎?我不認為中國會只有捷克吧?在捷克是有媒體報導的這個狀況那其他的地方有了解到說可能有一些跟蹤但是比較隱密的這個方式當帝國現在怎麼處理?\n現在捷克的地主國外交部有\n對,他有約中國的駐捷克大使然後我看他們國會的外交委員會的主席要求驅逐有沒有新的進度目前並沒有有新的進度我們希望隨時知道因為這個不僅僅是安全而且剛好見證到在國際自由民主遵守國際規範的國家跟不遵守國際規範的獨裁國家在國際形勢的差別對台灣來講這是一個\n這涉及到兩個事情一個是Rule of Law那個委員知道一個是Rule Space International Order那這個在所有的民主國家都把這個當成很重要的但是中國都是違背的是 好 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.889 --> 00:03.590\n謝謝主席,麻煩吳釗燮部長請吳部長華爾街日報有一個標題你有看過嗎?世界上最難的外交工作之一即將開缺這苦笑啦你對這個標題有沒有什麼評論沒有評論\n\n00:30.305 --> 00:52.779\n前面四個字事實上最難這是一個很大的我也不能講說當然不是外交部長而是一個我們整個外交部的同仁像我們常常到外面去看到我們駐外的人員到晚上還要負責打電報的半夜還是要趕回去打報告等等事實上外交部是我們大概各部會是最面臨真實\n\n00:54.741 --> 00:57.602\n對這句話的確感觸很深的確我在外交部已經超過6年\n\n01:11.688 --> 01:34.621\n但是如果說外交部有什麼樣的這個成就的話這個不是因為我個人而是因為我們外交部整體的這個團隊那我很自豪就是說在過去這裡有點多跟一個非常堅強的一個外交的團隊一起努力的工作那我想我們臺灣也應該非常的自豪我們有一個非常強的一個外交的團隊我們到各地看齁我們現在駐外的人員或我們外交部回部辦公的人員\n\n01:35.481 --> 01:58.150\n老中青銜接的還不錯但因為他把你形成形容成最難其實坦白講最難的外交工作意思就是成就很難達成挫折非常多嘛是所以6年多來的任期我們外交部替我們台灣的外交達成的成就我想讓外界來說有沒有比較遺憾的事情\n\n02:00.304 --> 02:23.405\n遺憾當然有啦那個我想我們國人都感到非常痛心的就是說中國在國際社會上面的這個打壓無所不在尤其是我們的這個邦交國所面臨的這個壓力是最大的一塊那這些只要是中國他得逞的時候就是我們外交部感到非常遺憾的時候那個是得逞的嘛那個大概不只是遺憾啦\n\n02:24.426 --> 02:33.761\n但是有一些遺憾是明明可以做到卻差了那麼一點點那個叫遺憾啦還有一種事情國際組織啊邦交國啦\n\n02:34.847 --> 02:36.188\n外交是累積的,其實每一任\n\n02:54.824 --> 03:22.335\n或者每一個時期的外交人員那個累積的成果或者是累積的困難都是後續要去承接的那成就當然不管跟各主流國家的互動或者在國際的能見度或者納入多邊安全的系統或者你去看所有的2plus2或者所有的高峰會議很難得看到台灣幾乎都是在關心的前三名的議題所以我講成就讓外人來說但是我倒期待\n\n03:22.955 --> 03:34.971\n外交部可能要去整理一下有一些東西大概是哪個點會讓我們可惜那還有一個月到520有沒有要注意的警訊\n\n03:36.857 --> 03:58.704\n目前看起來是還好但是因為那個520是一個重要的一個節點所以我們外交部這邊也非常的這種謹慎在處理我520我剛看到有委員在問各國你剛才講大概有400多位的外賓會來參加已經confirm的那我問的是比較具體的就是有沒有元首負元首等級的\n\n03:59.885 --> 04:13.871\n有,我們的友邦有很多,都是元首、副元首大概幾個國家?8個8個國家的元首或副元首會到有沒有總理、副總理等級的?就是涵蓋在內那議長、副議長等級的?\n\n04:19.188 --> 04:37.493\n國會團,就是議長等級國會團很多有沒有議長、副議長級的總之speakerofthehouse那個是有一定的意義嗎?這次沒有所以大概都是國會團、友好團等等所以大概八國的元首、副元首、總理、副總理那另外國會團加起來400多位\n\n04:39.393 --> 04:59.068\n還有那個外交部長帶來的還有外交部長那剛才講你判斷在未來的至少這520前目前沒有特殊的警訊因為以往我們都會問燈號我知道你很久開始就不回答燈號了那我再問在這最後一個月有沒有期末的成果展現有沒有好消息\n\n05:04.867 --> 05:28.060\n目前是沒有但是也非常坦誠的跟委員報告就是說我們外交部為什麼會這麼難就是我們要守成這個部分就是不是很容易那如果說在未來的一個月兩個月之內如果說沒有其他的這些特殊的警訊的話對我們外交部來講這個就是一個好的事情沒有警訊就是好消息那如果有所突破那是另外一層次的事情我移到下一個話題\n\n05:29.221 --> 05:45.389\n那個中國籍配偶鄭紫娟嫁來台灣之後離婚再跟他原來的核心前夫復婚復婚之後呢結合福建的福清幫以一萬塊台幣左右的價格收購台灣護照再以一萬美金就30倍把他出讓給\n\n05:46.810 --> 06:14.857\n需要隱匿身份進入歐美國家的人大概50本目前查到是這樣子這個犯罪模式有幾個我們要注意的第一個需要隱匿身份的人當然就是有問題的人嘛他拿自己國家護照出去就好了嘛他要隱匿他中國籍的身份或者隱匿他個人的身份所以這裡面有人定義成對歐洲或者其他民主國家是一個國安跟治安的雙重問題那我現在要請教我們的外交首長吳部長\n\n06:16.717 --> 06:45.737\n你知道臺灣人民或者政府的努力我們在國際上贏得的信任程度高所以在義大利有9個國家可以快速通關臺灣是在以色列法國日本其中之一在日本我們可以免簽我們甚至於前一段時間討論到美國的這個優先通關預先通關在臺灣設置很多這些措施或者那麼多免簽國是來自於臺灣可被信任\n\n06:46.437 --> 06:53.785\n台灣旅客文明程度高不會隨便跳船不會隨便亂弄這個案件的影響國際媒體報導出來\n\n06:58.103 --> 07:15.934\n我們外交部有沒有收到其他國家這不一定是邦交國可能是主要民主國家你像義大利啊或者歐盟對台灣就比較禮遇嘛有沒有收到這樣子的關注或關切因為我沒有辦法去關注到所有的這個細節那我請我們的領務局的同仁來簡單說一下有沒有相關國家關心說欸我給你們護照方便欸那結果你們護照被人家賣了變真的護照假的人\n\n07:25.640 --> 07:44.271\n就對我們臺灣的旅客在國際的移動有沒有影響報告委員這個案子基本上如果說據報宅那50本我剛才已經向羅美林委員根據墨菲定律啦對或者蟑螂定律你看到一隻蟑螂家裡就有千千萬萬的很多東西很多情資是本局提供的但是就委員的垂詢事實上\n\n07:45.631 --> 08:09.599\n幾乎是每天我們都會做到外館一個回報就是說有關於一些個案的情形那甚至我們的駐外人員會會同當地的官員去詢問假設這一個人護照在機場你知道他這個犯罪模式是買了台灣的護照去對對看他們中國幾人是誰長得比較像他不是偽照喔他就是持這本護照直接進出喔這個護照是真的喔完全沒有偽照喔\n\n08:11.560 --> 08:28.196\n這個除了會影響我們台灣的國際聲譽以外對我們台灣的遊客本來方便啊我護照拿了到日本就進去了嘛到美國免簽嘛線上辦就好了嘛等等這個案件如果再一再一再的發生你的判斷會不會影響我們台灣護照在國際的平等\n\n08:31.315 --> 08:51.247\n委員因為我們國內的護照我國的護照他的安全係數是非常高的偽造不方便才會變成直接冒用那直接冒用因為對岸的人民跟我們事實上某種程度上長得比較像你這樣講不對實在某些西方人看到亞洲人都覺得長得很像都是一樣的所以他有一個冒用的方便性但是我現在意思是說\n\n08:52.228 --> 09:07.465\n犯罪集團永遠都在犯罪就像你講只有50本我不認為啦那是你們撈到了50本現在就是說我們怎麼樣確保我們臺灣民眾在國際移動間這本護照的平等因為買賣護照一本30萬這二三十年來都有聽說啦東南亞也有發生過嘛\n\n09:11.289 --> 09:24.118\n這件事情有沒有其他國家關心這個事情過目前就本局的資訊來講倒是還沒有但是我們國內的一個檢調機關警察機關跟本局已經有一個非常好的溝通模式這個根據護照條例\n\n09:27.481 --> 09:41.836\n買賣護照供他人冒用的話最終判7年嘛對一年以上7年以下對最終判7年嘛那這個我覺得一般在賣護照的人可能好像覺得就像3000塊錢賣一本那個帳戶讓人家去洗錢一樣其實這個刑責不算輕是\n\n09:42.076 --> 10:05.708\n那這個犯罪鄭紫娟這個這個中配的犯罪集團事實上是被組織犯罪條例來查辦也是重罪我覺得外交部可能要加強宣導這個部分另外對於護照申請的護照是人民國民的權利可是他護照賣給別人表他自己根本不用嘛你知道買賣護照是找那些沒有護照的人請他去辦護照賣給他\n\n10:07.625 --> 10:20.405\n不是買那個有在用的我自己要國際旅行的我怎麼賣你我賣你我怎麼辦所以他找的是那個不移動的不國際旅遊的人所以這怎麼樣結合出入境管局透過數據的管理\n\n10:22.022 --> 10:23.242\n我最後跟主席借一分鐘請教部長\n\n10:43.393 --> 10:57.008\n剛才我看到幾位同仁都問到蕭美琴副總統當選人在捷克中國派出的是武官喔軍事人員軍事人員開著外管的車中國外管的車跟到什麼時候\n\n10:58.550 --> 11:16.344\n他為了跟上他闖紅燈差點發生車禍被發現那個車的車牌是中國駐捷克的外交人員車上的兩個人是中國的軍事人員好這個是國際媒體揭露的我請教部長我們台灣方面什麼時候知道這個事情\n\n11:17.825 --> 11:43.037\n是事件發生的當下還是之前就知道他們有派人在跟?是之後那目前只有捷克有這個事情嗎?我不認為中國會只有捷克吧?在捷克是有媒體報導的這個狀況那其他的地方有了解到說可能有一些跟蹤但是比較隱密的這個方式當帝國現在怎麼處理?\n\n11:45.298 --> 11:46.298\n現在捷克的地主國外交部有\n\n12:03.803 --> 12:25.010\n對,他有約中國的駐捷克大使然後我看他們國會的外交委員會的主席要求驅逐有沒有新的進度目前並沒有有新的進度我們希望隨時知道因為這個不僅僅是安全而且剛好見證到在國際自由民主遵守國際規範的國家跟不遵守國際規範的獨裁國家在國際形勢的差別對台灣來講這是一個\n\n12:30.091 --> 12:47.833\n這涉及到兩個事情一個是RuleofLaw那個委員知道一個是RuleSpaceInternationalOrder那這個在所有的民主國家都把這個當成很重要的但是中國都是違背的是好謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.889,"end":3.59,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩吳釗燮部長請吳部長華爾街日報有一個標題你有看過嗎?世界上最難的外交工作之一即將開缺這苦笑啦你對這個標題有沒有什麼評論沒有評論"},{"start":30.305,"end":52.779,"text":"前面四個字事實上最難這是一個很大的我也不能講說當然不是外交部長而是一個我們整個外交部的同仁像我們常常到外面去看到我們駐外的人員到晚上還要負責打電報的半夜還是要趕回去打報告等等事實上外交部是我們大概各部會是最面臨真實"},{"start":54.741,"end":57.602,"text":"對這句話的確感觸很深的確我在外交部已經超過6年"},{"start":71.688,"end":94.621,"text":"但是如果說外交部有什麼樣的這個成就的話這個不是因為我個人而是因為我們外交部整體的這個團隊那我很自豪就是說在過去這裡有點多跟一個非常堅強的一個外交的團隊一起努力的工作那我想我們臺灣也應該非常的自豪我們有一個非常強的一個外交的團隊我們到各地看齁我們現在駐外的人員或我們外交部回部辦公的人員"},{"start":95.481,"end":118.15,"text":"老中青銜接的還不錯但因為他把你形成形容成最難其實坦白講最難的外交工作意思就是成就很難達成挫折非常多嘛是所以6年多來的任期我們外交部替我們台灣的外交達成的成就我想讓外界來說有沒有比較遺憾的事情"},{"start":120.304,"end":143.405,"text":"遺憾當然有啦那個我想我們國人都感到非常痛心的就是說中國在國際社會上面的這個打壓無所不在尤其是我們的這個邦交國所面臨的這個壓力是最大的一塊那這些只要是中國他得逞的時候就是我們外交部感到非常遺憾的時候那個是得逞的嘛那個大概不只是遺憾啦"},{"start":144.426,"end":153.761,"text":"但是有一些遺憾是明明可以做到卻差了那麼一點點 那個叫遺憾啦還有一種事情 國際組織啊 邦交國啦"},{"start":154.847,"end":156.188,"text":"外交是累積的,其實每一任"},{"start":174.824,"end":202.335,"text":"或者每一個時期的外交人員那個累積的成果或者是累積的困難都是後續要去承接的那成就當然不管跟各主流國家的互動或者在國際的能見度或者納入多邊安全的系統或者你去看所有的2plus2或者所有的高峰會議很難得看到台灣幾乎都是在關心的前三名的議題所以我講成就讓外人來說但是我倒期待"},{"start":202.955,"end":214.971,"text":"外交部可能要去整理一下有一些東西大概是哪個點會讓我們可惜那還有一個月到520有沒有要注意的警訊"},{"start":216.857,"end":238.704,"text":"目前看起來是還好但是因為那個520是一個重要的一個節點所以我們外交部這邊也非常的這種謹慎在處理我520我剛看到有委員在問各國你剛才講大概有400多位的外賓會來參加已經confirm的那我問的是比較具體的就是有沒有元首負元首等級的"},{"start":239.885,"end":253.871,"text":"有,我們的友邦有很多,都是元首、副元首大概幾個國家?8個8個國家的元首或副元首會到有沒有總理、副總理等級的?就是涵蓋在內那議長、副議長等級的?"},{"start":259.188,"end":277.493,"text":"國會團,就是議長等級國會團很多有沒有議長、副議長級的總之speaker of the house那個是有一定的意義嗎?這次沒有所以大概都是國會團、友好團等等所以大概八國的元首、副元首、總理、副總理那另外國會團加起來400多位"},{"start":279.393,"end":299.068,"text":"還有那個外交部長帶來的還有外交部長那剛才講你判斷在未來的至少這520前目前沒有特殊的警訊因為以往我們都會問燈號我知道你很久開始就不回答燈號了那我再問在這最後一個月有沒有期末的成果展現有沒有好消息"},{"start":304.867,"end":328.06,"text":"目前是沒有但是也非常坦誠的跟委員報告就是說我們外交部為什麼會這麼難就是我們要守成這個部分就是不是很容易那如果說在未來的一個月兩個月之內如果說沒有其他的這些特殊的警訊的話對我們外交部來講這個就是一個好的事情沒有警訊就是好消息那如果有所突破那是另外一層次的事情我移到下一個話題"},{"start":329.221,"end":345.389,"text":"那個中國籍配偶鄭紫娟嫁來台灣之後離婚再跟他原來的核心前夫復婚復婚之後呢結合福建的福清幫以一萬塊台幣左右的價格收購台灣護照再以一萬美金就30倍把他出讓給"},{"start":346.81,"end":374.857,"text":"需要隱匿身份進入歐美國家的人大概50本目前查到是這樣子這個犯罪模式有幾個我們要注意的第一個需要隱匿身份的人當然就是有問題的人嘛他拿自己國家護照出去就好了嘛他要隱匿他中國籍的身份或者隱匿他個人的身份所以這裡面有人定義成對歐洲或者其他民主國家是一個國安跟治安的雙重問題那我現在要請教我們的外交首長吳部長"},{"start":376.717,"end":405.737,"text":"你知道臺灣人民或者政府的努力我們在國際上贏得的信任程度高所以在義大利有9個國家可以快速通關臺灣是在以色列法國日本其中之一在日本我們可以免簽我們甚至於前一段時間討論到美國的這個優先通關預先通關在臺灣設置很多這些措施或者那麼多免簽國是來自於臺灣可被信任"},{"start":406.437,"end":413.785,"text":"台灣旅客文明程度高不會隨便跳船不會隨便亂弄這個案件的影響國際媒體報導出來"},{"start":418.103,"end":435.934,"text":"我們外交部有沒有收到其他國家這不一定是邦交國可能是主要民主國家你像義大利啊或者歐盟對台灣就比較禮遇嘛有沒有收到這樣子的關注或關切因為我沒有辦法去關注到所有的這個細節那我請我們的領務局的同仁來簡單說一下有沒有相關國家關心說欸我給你們護照方便欸那結果你們護照被人家賣了變真的護照假的人"},{"start":445.64,"end":464.271,"text":"就對我們臺灣的旅客在國際的移動有沒有影響報告委員這個案子基本上如果說據報宅那50本我剛才已經向羅美林委員根據墨菲定律啦對或者蟑螂定律你看到一隻蟑螂家裡就有千千萬萬的很多東西很多情資是本局提供的但是就委員的垂詢事實上"},{"start":465.631,"end":489.599,"text":"幾乎是每天我們都會做到外館一個回報就是說有關於一些個案的情形那甚至我們的駐外人員會會同當地的官員去詢問假設這一個人護照在機場你知道他這個犯罪模式是買了台灣的護照去對對看他們中國幾人是誰長得比較像他不是偽照喔他就是持這本護照直接進出喔這個護照是真的喔完全沒有偽照喔"},{"start":491.56,"end":508.196,"text":"這個除了會影響我們台灣的國際聲譽以外對我們台灣的遊客本來方便啊我護照拿了到日本就進去了嘛到美國免簽嘛線上辦就好了嘛等等這個案件如果再一再一再的發生你的判斷會不會影響我們台灣護照在國際的平等"},{"start":511.315,"end":531.247,"text":"委員因為我們國內的護照我國的護照他的安全係數是非常高的偽造不方便才會變成直接冒用那直接冒用因為對岸的人民跟我們事實上某種程度上長得比較像你這樣講不對實在某些西方人看到亞洲人都覺得長得很像都是一樣的所以他有一個冒用的方便性但是我現在意思是說"},{"start":532.228,"end":547.465,"text":"犯罪集團永遠都在犯罪就像你講只有50本我不認為啦那是你們撈到了50本現在就是說我們怎麼樣確保我們臺灣民眾在國際移動間這本護照的平等因為買賣護照一本30萬這二三十年來都有聽說啦東南亞也有發生過嘛"},{"start":551.289,"end":564.118,"text":"這件事情有沒有其他國家關心這個事情過目前就本局的資訊來講倒是還沒有但是我們國內的一個檢調機關警察機關跟本局已經有一個非常好的溝通模式這個根據護照條例"},{"start":567.481,"end":581.836,"text":"買賣護照供他人冒用的話最終判7年嘛對一年以上7年以下對最終判7年嘛那這個我覺得一般在賣護照的人可能好像覺得就像3000塊錢賣一本那個帳戶讓人家去洗錢一樣其實這個刑責不算輕是"},{"start":582.076,"end":605.708,"text":"那這個犯罪鄭紫娟這個這個中配的犯罪集團事實上是被組織犯罪條例來查辦也是重罪我覺得外交部可能要加強宣導這個部分另外對於護照申請的護照是人民國民的權利可是他護照賣給別人表他自己根本不用嘛你知道買賣護照是找那些沒有護照的人請他去辦護照賣給他"},{"start":607.625,"end":620.405,"text":"不是買那個有在用的我自己要國際旅行的我怎麼賣你我賣你我怎麼辦所以他找的是那個不移動的不國際旅遊的人所以這怎麼樣結合出入境管局透過數據的管理"},{"start":622.022,"end":623.242,"text":"我最後跟主席借一分鐘請教部長"},{"start":643.393,"end":657.008,"text":"剛才我看到幾位同仁都問到蕭美琴副總統當選人在捷克中國派出的是武官喔軍事人員軍事人員開著外管的車中國外管的車跟到什麼時候"},{"start":658.55,"end":676.344,"text":"他為了跟上他闖紅燈差點發生車禍被發現那個車的車牌是中國駐捷克的外交人員車上的兩個人是中國的軍事人員好這個是國際媒體揭露的我請教部長我們台灣方面什麼時候知道這個事情"},{"start":677.825,"end":703.037,"text":"是事件發生的當下還是之前就知道他們有派人在跟?是之後那目前只有捷克有這個事情嗎?我不認為中國會只有捷克吧?在捷克是有媒體報導的這個狀況那其他的地方有了解到說可能有一些跟蹤但是比較隱密的這個方式當帝國現在怎麼處理?"},{"start":705.298,"end":706.298,"text":"現在捷克的地主國外交部有"},{"start":723.803,"end":745.01,"text":"對,他有約中國的駐捷克大使然後我看他們國會的外交委員會的主席要求驅逐有沒有新的進度目前並沒有有新的進度我們希望隨時知道因為這個不僅僅是安全而且剛好見證到在國際自由民主遵守國際規範的國家跟不遵守國際規範的獨裁國家在國際形勢的差別對台灣來講這是一個"},{"start":750.091,"end":767.833,"text":"這涉及到兩個事情一個是Rule of Law那個委員知道一個是Rule Space International Order那這個在所有的民主國家都把這個當成很重要的但是中國都是違背的是 好 謝謝部長"}]}}}}