{"id":151108,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151108","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8a1755e5400c0ec4e89aba2bad09dcdfefb6b28ae2d84df8ba9b0039caa7a6adb3a6b00095d47c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:23:20 - 10:38:48","影片長度":"00:15:28","會議時間":"2024-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、內政部、法務部、教育部、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、文化部就「數位技術普及造成兒少性剝削案件增加之因應作為與現行政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-15","duration":928,"end_time":"2024-04-15T10:38:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-15T10:23:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":570,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時23分）主席好，有請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長你好，最近媒體陸續公布新內閣的內定名單，請問部長有沒有接到徵詢的電話？還是一無所悉？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有，是不是？部長，請問你認為一個稱職的衛福部長應該具備哪些能力？下一任衛福部長應該要有什麼樣的經歷才稱得上適任？"],["薛部長瑞元：這可能不是由我來回答，因為這個是行政院長要考慮的。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我也知道你大概會這樣講，所以你覺得下一任部長有哪些問題要優先解決，列舉3項好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前大概有幾個重點，第一個當然就是大家比較關心的食安問題；第二個就是健保的問題；第三個就是兒少保護的問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，你提到的都是我想要講的，至少是不是應該要懂食安、社安、醫藥安全、健保等等，如果沒有辦法一次搞懂這幾大業務的話，這樣子新人大概要多久才可以上手？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個要看啦，這些都是由一個團隊在做的，不是一個部長對這些都要鉅細靡遺的懂。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以我是想要表達，剛剛說的以上這些都很重大，是人民關心的民生議題，你剛剛也有說衛福部是多事之秋，所以我們希望看到的是專業肯做事的政務官，不要互踢皮球的政務官。","再來，部長，最近不管是什麼腸病毒、流感、新冠，甚至是食安的問題，我想各大小醫院的床位都很緊繃，據我們瞭解，其實醫院是有床位的，但主要是護理人員不足，而造成護理人員流失的問題，當然很重要的一塊是薪資問題，您也點頭，我看得出來。勞動部在2022年的時候有去調查，護理人員的月薪資大約是四萬七千多塊，而且是加上獎金後的數字，請教部長，護理師這麼辛苦，結果平均年薪不到70萬，這樣請得到人嗎？是不是流失護理人員很重要的原因呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：這要看是最低的初任薪資，還是看平均薪資，如果是平均薪資，應該接近70萬。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以還是沒有到70萬嘛！現在他們工會都很希望我們政府是不是可以保障他們至少70萬的薪資起跳，部長有沒有可能有政策性的宣示，可以透過各種方式，不管是薪資補貼、獎勵方案或者是等等的方式，可以讓他們達到這樣的標準和水準？"],["薛部長瑞元：一般來講，大概政府很難保證各種行業最低薪資是多少……"],["廖委員偉翔：您本人支不支持他們的薪資待遇？"],["薛部長瑞元：我覺得這個要從長計議，因為光是在醫療產業裡面就有各種不同的專業人員，這個恐怕沒有那麼簡單。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。衛福部去年在健保總額有專款40億獎勵三班的護理人員，最近在3月4日的時候，我們鄭文燦副院長也在台灣社區醫院協會跟衛福部的政策溝通會議上，和代表們達成共識，護理獎勵夜班費層級的差距縮減，您可以看這個圖表，包含大夜班的部分，醫學中心維持1,000元，可是區域醫院從800元提升到950元，等等的數字在表格上面。我想要問這筆費用何時會入帳？"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分的話，其實我們在等一個我們送到行政院去的健保基金收支運用管理辦法的修正。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我知道，我知道你會這樣講，那麼預計會大概增加多少經費？"],["薛部長瑞元：差不多一億多啦。"],["廖委員偉翔：一億多？好。這個是健保總額支出還是用公務預算支出？"],["薛部長瑞元：就是由公務預算挹注到健保的那一筆錢去支出。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為就像你說的，現在媒體說這筆帳是卡在行政院裡面，因為主計總處認為應該由總額支出，而不應該用公務預算來撥補，所以關於這個部分，部長，我想用總額支出加碼可能並不太合理，因為這樣又會稀釋到健保點值，這個什麼時候要公告實施也還不確定，現在……"],["薛部長瑞元：應該快了。"],["廖委員偉翔：快了是不是？你可不可以在4月底之前給一個答復？"],["薛部長瑞元：我現在在等行政院那邊批下來，上一次副院長已經有召集我們跟主計總處做了一個協商，大概有一個成果，所以現在在等行政院那邊批下來。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以4月底前應該是可以答復？"],["薛部長瑞元：有機會。"],["廖委員偉翔：有機會？所以還不敢保證？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那要請部長持續緊盯，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來進入正題，部長，關於你遲遲不立即發布行政命令給數發部要求封網，為此，你上週解釋封網有兩個方法，一個是行政的處分，第二個是檢察官的調查，但是這兩個途徑都稍慢，所以你希望未來修法可以對於境外網站涉及兒少色情立即封網的授權，但是同一天，蔡清祥部長就說依照現行的法律，行政處分可以由主管機關也就是衛福部去做下架封網的動作。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，因為我們的施行細則裡面有規定……"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道。"],["薛部長瑞元：行政處分要先有一個送達……"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，你剛剛有講，你跟委員說有法律風險，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是我要告訴部長，因為你有選擇，你不是沒選擇，因為你最後還是選擇，對不對？但是你剛剛一直不斷地推託是法律風險，可是你當初本來就可以選擇做或不做，你當初不想要承擔這個法律風險，造成人民暴露在受害的風險當中，你現在當然就要負政治風險，對不對？這整個八百多天，對吧？你不能全部都推給法律風險嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：八百多天不能說……"],["廖委員偉翔：封網的速度拖太久，但是因為你剛剛也說有好幾個細則，所以你晚處理了，對吧？因為你說當初有法律風險。所以我要告訴你，衛福部是能有所作為，但是毫無作為，拖到最後一刻，媒體不報、民代不逼、法務部不說，衛福部就不做，當然你們最後才從善如流趕快發文給數發部，請它趕快封網，但是看得出來，這就是一個不敢承擔，在互踢皮球的行為。我告訴你，剛剛說的八百多天，其實我們真的不知道八百多天到底在幹嘛！加害者、付費會員、被害者也都不斷在增加，而且沒有封網的情況之下，反正搞到現在，經辦的警員也具名受訪，提到其中有很多惡意殘酷的影像，犯罪手法跟受害者的規模已經超過南韓的N號房事件所發生的性犯罪，而該網站至少有三、四千位受害者，另外一個網站也有一千多位受害者，包含很多大專院校，包括臺大醫學院、北一女等等，很多廁所都被偷拍，甚至我告訴部長，6年前就有受害者出現了。在Dcard上面受害者表示他6年前到外縣市去旅遊的時候被偷拍，3年前報案，結果受理單位說一句「基本上抓不到，IP設在海外」，就沒有下文了。數發部、衛福部、內政部都缺乏橫向溝通，消極不處理，才讓這個受害者被偷拍6年，這個論壇經營也差不多十年多了，不只抓不到兇手，現在論壇還持續營運，甚至這件事情現在好像燒起來，看似結束了，但是後續的憂鬱和恐懼都沒有散去。這是受害者他說的，他說他哭了好久，不敢跟任何人訴說，他對自己很生氣，為什麼沒有保護好自己。我聽到這句話的時候，我覺得很感慨，為什麼我們的國家可以無能到讓受害的受害者、受害女性被偷拍了，卻只能夠責怪自己沒有保護好自己，這完全不對啊！對吧？所以你看到南韓，文在寅也在第一時間出面，他下令要嚴辦等等，但是我們臺灣呢？到現在，感覺我們還是一直在互踢皮球，一直找藉口，而且我想要給您看的是我們的總統、副總統，到現在也都沒有講話，總統可以在拜登的狗狗死掉之後，在他推特上面留言哀悼，可是這件事情涉及自己國人有四千多位、五千多位的受害者，甚至在過去兩年，臉書Risu社團的被害者一直在疊加，他都還沒有發聲，這樣子對嗎？部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：首先要有這個技術才能夠去防止的事情，所以2020年開始算，我是覺得這樣可能……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，先不再找理由，我要給你看一個事情，剛剛是六年多前就有受害者出現，所以我們政府單位是消極，沒有跨部會的整合，但是你還記得我上次有問過，我國的自殺統計數據參照圖表，近年年輕女性的自殺率莫名的攀升，我想要請問部長，你們有沒有做過年輕女性自殺率提高和兒少性剝削之間相關性的研究。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個是沒有。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有做？"],["薛部長瑞元：兩個相關性的研究是沒有。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為你目前沒有辦法排除有沒有可能是這個原因，我建議是不是應該啟動專案來調查一下？"],["薛部長瑞元：這可以啦，因為它的個案數事實上也沒有那麼多。"],["廖委員偉翔：我覺得應該要好好瞭解一下為什麼會發生這樣的事情，因為從剛剛網路上的人這樣說，你就知道受害者是好幾千位，而且這幾年莫名的攀升，這個論壇的出現也是這幾年的事情。所以部長，我們蔡總統常常說沒有人是局外人，可是我們現在受到性剝削的兒少如何保護，我看我們蔡總統跟我們現在的賴副總統都沒有發聲，看起來到現在還是局外人。","另外，有關修法的部分，我想要請問部長，你有沒有發現這次論壇的整個經營，在高級會員裡面，有會員負責發包新片的需求、有會員接單去偷拍，有人接單了，再委託其他人去偷拍、有人管理會員、有人管帳，甚至主謀老馬是負責整個網站的架設，還可以在2022年的時候把這個網站移到美國去。我想請教部長，這麼綿密的組織分工從事犯罪行為，是不是組織犯罪？"],["薛部長瑞元：理論上來講也是一種形式的組織犯罪。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，那麼我想要請教法務部以及衛福部，為什麼針對這類型的犯罪，沒有用組織犯罪條例來辦？"],["簡副司長美慧：報告委員，組織犯罪防制條例有相關對於組織犯罪的一個定義，基本上，它可能要有一個結構性、牟利性或者是長期性。"],["廖委員偉翔：這看起來還不夠結構、不夠牟利、不夠長期嗎？"],["簡副司長美慧：報告委員，因為案件在地檢署檢察官偵辦當中，我們尊重檢察官按照他整個偵查及調查的結果、認定事實跟適用法律整體的評價，假設適用的法律有不妥適之處，在日後起訴移審的時候都還有變更法條的可能性。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長……"],["簡副司長美慧：我們尊重檢察官最後認事用法的結果。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我是建議，現行的第四十一條裡面有說公務員或公職人員犯兒少性剝削條例，刑度要加重二分之一，我是希望，我也主張提出第四十一條之一的草案，新增以組織形式犯本條例之罪應加重其刑至二分之一，不曉得部長認不認同這樣的方向？"],["薛部長瑞元：我想這個會牽涉到的比較是法務部這邊的判斷，也就是說，這樣子去加重其刑的話，那在整個法的衡平性到底是如何。"],["廖委員偉翔：我覺得這個事情要審慎看待，請好好地研議、評估好嗎？因為這等於是大開後門，這個組織犯罪已經這麼嚴重了，你們還看不到，還不去修！然後公務人員這些東西犯了要加重二分之一，難道這些組織犯罪不用加重二分之一嗎？這個應該是很合理的事情，不要再推給其他的理由好嗎？最後，現行法第三十條也規定，對於性剝削的兒少被害人，要進行輔導甚至必要的協助，應該進行至少一年以上，可是我感覺這個地板是不是太低了？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，這……"],["廖委員偉翔：後續……"],["薛部長瑞元：一年以上並不是……"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，但是我想要講，這個一年以上等於是地板。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：我希望是不是可以把地板提高到三年？因為一年的事情，這個東西很多一年以後你都還不知道後續會發生什麼事情，可能導致更多社會狀況的發生。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個可以思考一下啦！但是這樣子，提高到三年以上的話，是否有它的實益，這個也是要……"],["廖委員偉翔：我覺得……"],["薛部長瑞元：因為目前有一些案子是已經有了，我們有一些數據，大概可以去做一些分析。"],["廖委員偉翔：請部長好好地、審慎地看待，不要再用消極、被動的態度去處理這個事情。","最後我還要再提一個，現在AI的發展已經發展得很快，所以我們希望不法的壞人走在前頭，我們政府應該要趕快有所規範，避免AI變成性犯罪在內的不法工具。我想要講的事情就是，我們應該要提早因應。我們可以看，不管是歐盟或者是美國其實他們都已經有相關的在研議要怎麼處理這些事情，甚至可以在AI軟體的技術上面就直接設定它不可以從事哪些問題、不可以去問哪些問題、不可以產生哪些東西，所以不曉得我們的數發部有沒有相對的因應？請我們數發部。"],["曾副司長文方：這個AI的部分我們也有配合這個……，因為國科會其實上個禮拜也有表示，就是他們有考慮利用AI的技術，組成跨領域的專家學者來研究是不是可以用AI detect（偵測）這個部分。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們現在才要開始做嗎？你們一年這麼多預算到底在幹嘛？因為這個東西在國外老早就做了，你在歐洲、你在歐盟或者是在美國，甚至是一些敏感詞彙你是不能問的，到現在我們才要做這件事情，是不是太慢了？我請你們回去好好趕快加緊腳步去做這件事情，這個國際上其他國家都已經走在很前面了，我們身為所謂的IT大國、人工智能軟體工程師的國家，我們怎麼可以走得這麼後面？謝謝。"],["曾副司長文方：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，等一下蘇清泉委員發言結束後休息5分鐘。","現在我們請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","洪申翰","黃珊珊","黃捷","洪孟楷","張雅琳","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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0.866}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 266.248, \"end\": 266.588, \"score\": 0.713}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 266.588, \"end\": 267.009, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 267.009, \"end\": 267.189, \"score\": 0.698}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 267.189, \"end\": 267.369, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 267.369, \"end\": 268.229, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 268.229, \"end\": 268.329, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 268.329, \"end\": 268.57, \"score\": 0.706}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 268.57, \"end\": 268.73, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 268.73, \"end\": 268.89, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 268.89, \"end\": 269.25, \"score\": 0.738}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 269.25, \"end\": 269.39, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"也\", 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0.876}, {\"word\": \"覆\", \"start\": 275.814, \"end\": 275.834, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 276.745, \"end\": 304.563, \"text\": \"因為我現在等那個行政院那邊批下來上一次副院長已經有召集我們跟主席總署做了一個協商大概有一個成果所以現在等那個行政院那邊批下來所以4月底前應該是可以答覆有機會有機會所以還不敢保證對好那要請這個部長持續緊盯好不好好再來進入正題喔部長關於你遲遲不立即發布這個行政命令給訴法部要求封網\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 276.745, \"end\": 277.626, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 277.626, \"end\": 277.746, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 277.746, \"end\": 278.086, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 278.086, \"end\": 278.246, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 278.246, \"end\": 278.887, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 278.887, \"end\": 279.047, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 279.047, \"end\": 279.147, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 279.147, \"end\": 279.207, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 279.207, \"end\": 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\"重\", \"start\": 741.734, \"end\": 741.955, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 741.955, \"end\": 742.155, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 742.155, \"end\": 742.336, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 742.336, \"end\": 742.636, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 742.636, \"end\": 742.776, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 742.776, \"end\": 742.997, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 742.997, \"end\": 743.358, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 743.358, \"end\": 743.518, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 743.518, \"end\": 744.099, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"橫\"}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 744.099, \"end\": 744.299, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 744.299, \"end\": 744.56, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 744.56, \"end\": 744.74, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 744.74, \"end\": 744.941, 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00:01:12,328\n目前大概有幾個重點第一個當然就比較大家比較關心的食安的問題那第二個大概就是健保的問題那第三個大概就是這一個兒少保護的社安的問題對所以你提到的都是我想要講的就是至少是不是應該要懂食安、社安、醫藥安全、健保等等的那如果沒有辦法一次搞懂這幾大業務的話這樣子新人大概要多久才可以上手\n\n4\n00:01:13,069 --> 00:01:16,232\n所以我們希望看到的是專業肯做事的政務官不要互踢皮球的政務官\n\n5\n00:01:39,486 --> 00:02:08,686\n再來部長最近這個不管是什麼腸病毒、流感、新冠甚至是食安的問題我想各大小醫院的床位都很緊繃那其實醫院是有床位的據我們了解但主要也是護理人員不足所以造成護理人員流失的問題當然很重要一塊是薪資問題我想您也點頭我看得出來在勞動部在2022年的時候有去調查這個護理人員的薪資月薪資大約是47000多塊而且是加上獎金後的數字\n\n6\n00:02:09,606 --> 00:02:24,939\n那請教部長護理師這麼辛苦喔沒有平均年薪不到70萬我想這樣子請得到人嗎?是不是流失的很重要的原因呢?這個要是要看是這個最低的出任的薪資還是平均的薪資\n\n7\n00:02:26,148 --> 00:02:48,929\n平均薪資的話應該接近70萬所以還是沒有到70萬嘛所以現在他們的這個工會都很希望是不是我們政府可以保障他們至少70萬的薪資起跳有沒有可能部長有政策性的宣示可以透過各種不然薪資補貼啦獎勵方案啊或者是等等的方式可以讓他們達到這樣的標準和水準\n\n8\n00:02:49,409 --> 00:03:10,820\n一般來講的話大概政府很難去保證說各種行業他的這個最低薪資是多少那您本人覺得值不值持他們的這個薪資待遇我覺得這個要從長計議因為光是在醫療產業裡面就各種不同的專業人員這個恐怕沒有那麼簡單好來那衛福部去年在健保總額有專款這個40億獎勵三班的這個護理人員\n\n9\n00:03:15,842 --> 00:03:41,875\n當然最近在3月4日的時候我們鄭文燦副院長也在臺灣社區醫院跟衛福部的政策溝通會議上和代表們達成共識就是說護理獎獎勵的夜班費的層級的差距的縮減你可以到時候看這個圖表包含這個大夜班的醫學中心維持1000可是區域醫院從800元提升到950元好等等的這個數字在這個表格上面的我想要問說那這筆費用何時會入帳\n\n10\n00:03:44,797 --> 00:04:02,830\n最後部分的話其實我們在等我們送到行政院去的一個健保基金的這個受制運用管理辦法的修正對我知道那我知道你會這樣講那會大概增加多少經費啊預計差不多一億多啦一億多好那這個健保總額支出還是用公務預算支出\n\n11\n00:04:03,790 --> 00:04:25,388\n就是由這個公務預算抑制到健保的那一筆錢去支出因為現在媒體就像你說的說這筆帳是卡在行政院裡面喔因為主計總署認為說應該有總額支出而不應該用公務預算來撥補所以我是想說這個部分我想部長用總額支出可能加碼並不太合理喔因為這樣又會稀釋到健保點值\n\n12\n00:04:25,948 --> 00:04:35,834\n那重點是難道各醫院這個什麼時候要公告實施也還不確定那現在應該快了快了是不是那你可不可以在4月底之前給一個答覆\n\n13\n00:04:36,745 --> 00:05:04,563\n因為我現在等那個行政院那邊批下來上一次副院長已經有召集我們跟主席總署做了一個協商大概有一個成果所以現在等那個行政院那邊批下來所以4月底前應該是可以答覆有機會有機會所以還不敢保證對好那要請這個部長持續緊盯好不好好再來進入正題喔部長關於你遲遲不立即發布這個行政命令給訴法部要求封網\n\n14\n00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:29,128\n為此你上週解釋說封網有兩個方法一個是行政的處分那第二個是檢察官的調查但是兩個途徑都稍慢所以你希望說未來修法可以對於這個外網近外網站涉及兒少色情的授權的立即封網但是同一天蔡新祥部長就說依照現行的法律行政處分可以由主管級分也就是衛福部去做這樣下架封網的動作\n\n15\n00:05:31,732 --> 00:05:50,837\n欸根本報告因為齁那個我們的施行細則裡面有規定我知道行政處分的話要先有一個送達我知道你剛剛有講跟委員說有這個法律風險對不對對但我要告訴部長喔因為你有選擇你不是沒選擇因為你最後還是選擇對不對但你剛剛一直不斷的推脫說是法律風險\n\n16\n00:05:51,897 --> 00:06:11,020\n可是你當初本來就可以選擇做或不做你當初不想要承擔這個法律風險造成人民這個暴露在受害的風險當中那你現在當然就要負政治風險啦對不對這等了800多天對吧你不能全部都推給法律法律風險嗎800多天不能說我就封網了太拖太久\n\n17\n00:06:11,660 --> 00:06:37,193\n好但是你剛剛有說好幾個細則所以你也晚處理了吧對吧所以因為你說當初有法律風險所以我要告訴你衛福部是能有所作為但是毫無作為拖到最後一刻媒體不報民貸不逼法務部不說會福部就不做那當然你們最後才從善如流趕快發文給數法部請他趕快封網但是看得出來這就是一個不敢承擔在互踢皮球的行為\n\n18\n00:06:38,514 --> 00:07:03,274\n讓我告訴你這剛說800多天其實我們真的不知道800多天到底在幹嘛加害者、付費會員、被害者也都不斷的在增加而且沒有封網的情況之下反正搞到現在金辦的這個警員也說也具名的受訪說其中有很多惡意殘酷的影像犯罪手法跟受害者的規模已經超過南韓的N號房事件所發生的性犯罪\n\n19\n00:07:04,434 --> 00:07:17,365\n而這個創意這個該網站至少有三、四千位的受害者另外一個網站有一千多位的受害者包含很多大專院校臺大醫學院、北醫女等等很多廁所都被偷拍甚至\n\n20\n00:07:18,376 --> 00:07:36,353\n我要告訴部長6年前就有人就有受害者出現了他在Dcard上面有說受害者表示他6年前到外縣市去旅遊的時候被偷拍3年前報案結果受理單位說一句基本上抓不到還IP設在海外就沒有下文了\n\n21\n00:07:37,809 --> 00:07:50,157\n訴發部、衛福部、內政部都缺乏橫向溝通啊消極不處理才讓這個受害者被偷拍6年這個論壇經營也超過10年多了不只抓不到兇手現在論壇還持續營運喔\n\n22\n00:07:52,153 --> 00:08:10,736\n所以甚至這件事情現在看起來好像燒起來看似結束了但是後續的憂鬱和恐懼都沒有散去這個受害者他說這是受害者他說的他說他哭了好久不敢跟任何人訴說他對自己很生氣為什麼沒有保護好自己\n\n23\n00:08:11,806 --> 00:08:39,168\n我聽到這句話的時候我覺得很感慨為什麼我們的國家可以無能到讓受害的受害者受害女性被偷拍了卻只能夠責怪自己沒有保護好自己這完全不對啊對吧所以你看看南韓喔這個文在寅也在第一時間出面他說下這個下令要嚴辦等等的但是我們台灣呢感覺到現在我們還是一直在互踢皮球啊一直找藉口對不對\n\n24\n00:08:40,307 --> 00:09:02,195\n而且我想要給您看的是我們的總統、副總統到現在也都沒有講話總統可以在拜登的狗狗死掉之後在他推特上面留言哀悼可是這件事情卻涉及自己國人有4千多位、5千多位的受害者甚至在過去兩年臉書的這個RESO社團被害者一直在疊加他都還沒有發聲欸這樣子對嗎?部長這一個齁\n\n25\n00:09:06,557 --> 00:09:35,231\n首先這是要有這個技術才能夠去做這件事情去防止的事情所以2020年開始算我是覺得這樣是可能的好部長先不再找理由我要給你看一個事情這是剛剛是6年6年多前就有受害者出現所以我們政府單位是消極沒有跨部會的整合但是你還記得我上次有問過我國的自殺統計數據參照圖表近年的這個年輕女性的自殺率莫名的攀升\n\n26\n00:09:36,567 --> 00:09:52,723\n我想要請問部長你們有沒有做過年輕女性的自殺率提高和兒少性剝削之間相關性的研究這個是沒有沒有做兩個相關性的研究是沒有那我建議喔因為你目前沒有辦法排除有沒有可能是這個原因是建議是不是應該啟動專案來調查一下\n\n27\n00:10:01,286 --> 00:10:12,773\n我覺得應該要好好瞭解一下為什麼會發生這樣的事情因為從剛剛網路上的人這樣說你就知道這個受害者是好幾千萬而且這幾年莫名的攀升喔這個論壇的出現也是這幾年的事情\n\n28\n00:10:13,613 --> 00:10:33,171\n好所以部長這個我們蔡總統常常說沒有人是局外人可是看到我們現在受到性剝削的兒少的如何保護我看我們蔡總統跟我們現在的賴副總統都沒有發生看起來到現在還是局外人另外修法的有關修法的部分我想要請問部長你有沒有發現這次論壇的\n\n29\n00:10:34,861 --> 00:11:02,984\n整個經營裡面有人負責這個成為高級會員裡面有會員負責要發包芯片的需求有會員接單去偷拍有人接單了再委託其他人去偷拍有人管理會員有人管帳甚至這個主謀老馬是負責整個網站的架設還可以在2022年的時候把這個網站移到美國去我想請教部長這麼綿密的組織分工從事犯罪行為是不是組織犯罪\n\n30\n00:11:05,074 --> 00:11:28,593\n理論上來講也是一種形式的組織犯罪對那麼我想要請教法務部還有我們的衛福部為什麼針對這類型的犯罪沒有用組織犯罪條例來辦報告委員就是那個組織犯罪防制條例它有相關對於那個組織犯罪它的一個定義那基本上它可能要有一個結構性、牟利性或者是長期性\n\n31\n00:11:29,242 --> 00:11:52,425\n這看起來還不夠結構、不夠牟利、不夠長期嗎?因為案件在地檢署假官偵辦當中那我們尊重假官按照他整個偵查調查的結果認定事實跟適用法律整體的評價那假設適用的法律有不妥適之處在日後起訴一審的時候都還有變更法條的可能性我們尊重假官最後他認識用法的結果\n\n32\n00:11:53,106 --> 00:12:14,241\n部長我是建議現行的41條裡面有說公務員或公職人員犯兒少性剝削條例刑度要加重二分之一那我是希望我也主張提出是不是41條之一的草案要新增這個以組織犯罪以組織刑事犯這個本條例的罪應該要加重期刑二分之一不知道部長認不認同這樣的方向\n\n33\n00:12:15,322 --> 00:12:25,462\n我想這個會牽涉到比較是法務部這邊他的判斷那也就是說這樣子去加重提醒的話那在整個法的橫平性到底是如何\n\n34\n00:12:26,345 --> 00:12:45,597\n我覺得這個事情要審慎看待請好好的研議評估好嗎因為這等於是大開後門這個組織犯罪已經這麼嚴重了你們還看不到還不去修然後公務人員這些東西犯了要加重二分之一那難道這些組織犯罪不用加重二分之一嗎這應該是很合理的事情不要再推給這個其他的理由好嗎\n\n35\n00:12:46,657 --> 00:13:00,324\n最後現行法的30條也規定對於性剝削的兒少被害人他要進行輔導甚至必要的協助應該至少進行一年以上可是我感覺這個地板是不是太低\n\n36\n00:13:05,522 --> 00:13:26,448\n我希望是不是可以把地板提高到三年因為一年的事情這個東西很多一年以後你都還不知道後續會發生什麼事情可能導致更多的社會情況的發生可以思考一下但是這樣子提高到三年以上的話是否有他的實力這個也是要\n\n37\n00:13:28,488 --> 00:13:54,215\n目前有一些案子是已經有我們有一些數據大概可以去做一些分析請部長好好的審慎的看待不要再用消極被動的態度去處理這個事情最後我還要再提一個現在AI的發展已經發展得很快所以我們希望這個不法的壞人走在前頭我們政府應該要趕快有所規範避免這個AI變成性犯罪在內的不法工具我想要講的事情就是\n\n38\n00:13:55,424 --> 00:14:18,903\n我們應該要提早因應我們可以看不管是歐盟或者是美國下一頁不管是歐盟或美國其實他們都已經有相關的在研議要怎麼處理這些事情甚至他可以在這個AI軟體的技術上面就直接設定說他不可以從事哪些問題他不可以去問哪些問題不可以產生哪些東西所以我們不曉得我們的速發部有沒有相對的因應請問速發部\n\n39\n00:14:30,138 --> 00:14:48,799\n這個AI的這個部分的話我們也有配合這個因為國科會其實上個禮拜也有表示就是他們有考慮這個利用AI的這個技術然後組成這個跨部會的這跨領域的這個專家學者來研究是不是可以\n\n40\n00:14:50,560 --> 00:15:16,547\n來這個用AIdetect這個偵測這個部分所以你們現在才要開始做啊你們一年這麼多預算到底在幹嘛因為這個東西在國外老早就做了你在歐洲你在歐盟或在美國甚至一些敏感的詞彙你是不能問的那現在到現在我們才要做這些事情是不是太慢了我請你們好好回去趕快加緊腳步去做這些事情這個國際上其他國家都已經走在很前面了我們身為一個所謂的IT大國\n\n41\n00:15:17,788 --> 00:15:20,732\n人工智能軟體工程師的國家我們怎麼可以走這麼後面好謝謝好謝謝等一下蘇星泉委員發言結束\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1470\t28701\t主席好 有請薛部長部長你好最近媒體有陸續公佈新內閣的這個內定名單請問部長有沒有接受到徵詢的電話了嗎還是一無所惜沒有是不是那部長請問你認為一個稱職的衛福部長應該具備哪一些能力那下一任的衛福部長應該要有什麼樣的經歷才稱得上事任\n29976\t43174\t這個可能不是由我來回答因為這個是這個行政院長要考慮好那我也知道你大概會這樣講喔所以你覺得下一任的部長有哪些問題要優先解決的例舉三項好不好\n44709\t72328\t目前大概有幾個重點第一個當然就比較大家比較關心的食安的問題那第二個大概就是健保的問題那第三個大概就是這一個兒少保護的社安的問題對所以你提到的都是我想要講的就是至少是不是應該要懂食安、社安、醫藥安全、健保等等的那如果沒有辦法一次搞懂這幾大業務的話這樣子新人大概要多久才可以上手\n73069\t76232\t所以我們希望看到的是專業肯做事的政務官不要互踢皮球的政務官\n99486\t128686\t再來部長最近這個不管是什麼腸病毒、流感、新冠甚至是食安的問題我想各大小醫院的床位都很緊繃那其實醫院是有床位的據我們了解但主要也是護理人員不足所以造成護理人員流失的問題當然很重要一塊是薪資問題我想您也點頭我看得出來在勞動部在2022年的時候有去調查這個護理人員的薪資月薪資大約是47000多塊而且是加上獎金後的數字\n129606\t144939\t那請教部長護理師這麼辛苦喔沒有平均年薪不到70萬我想這樣子請得到人嗎?是不是流失的很重要的原因呢?這個要是要看是這個最低的出任的薪資還是平均的薪資\n146148\t168929\t平均薪資的話應該接近70萬所以還是沒有到70萬嘛所以現在他們的這個工會都很希望是不是我們政府可以保障他們至少70萬的薪資起跳有沒有可能部長有政策性的宣示可以透過各種不然薪資補貼啦獎勵方案啊或者是等等的方式可以讓他們達到這樣的標準和水準\n169409\t190820\t一般來講的話大概政府很難去保證說各種行業他的這個最低薪資是多少那您本人覺得值不值持他們的這個薪資待遇我覺得這個要從長計議因為光是在醫療產業裡面就各種不同的專業人員這個恐怕沒有那麼簡單好來那衛福部去年在健保總額有專款這個40億獎勵三班的這個護理人員\n195842\t221875\t當然最近在3月4日的時候我們鄭文燦副院長也在臺灣社區醫院跟衛福部的政策溝通會議上和代表們達成共識就是說護理獎獎勵的夜班費的層級的差距的縮減你可以到時候看這個圖表包含這個大夜班的醫學中心維持1000可是區域醫院從800元提升到950元好等等的這個數字在這個表格上面的我想要問說那這筆費用何時會入帳\n224797\t242830\t最後部分的話其實我們在等我們送到行政院去的一個健保基金的這個受制運用管理辦法的修正對我知道那我知道你會這樣講那會大概增加多少經費啊預計差不多一億多啦一億多好那這個健保總額支出還是用公務預算支出\n243790\t265388\t就是由這個公務預算抑制到健保的那一筆錢去支出因為現在媒體就像你說的說這筆帳是卡在行政院裡面喔因為主計總署認為說應該有總額支出而不應該用公務預算來撥補所以我是想說這個部分我想部長用總額支出可能加碼並不太合理喔因為這樣又會稀釋到健保點值\n265948\t275834\t那重點是難道各醫院這個什麼時候要公告實施也還不確定那現在應該快了快了是不是那你可不可以在4月底之前給一個答覆\n276745\t304563\t因為我現在等那個行政院那邊批下來上一次副院長已經有召集我們跟主席總署做了一個協商大概有一個成果所以現在等那個行政院那邊批下來所以4月底前應該是可以答覆有機會有機會所以還不敢保證對好那要請這個部長持續緊盯好不好好再來進入正題喔部長關於你遲遲不立即發布這個行政命令給訴法部要求封網\n305960\t329128\t為此你上週解釋說封網有兩個方法一個是行政的處分那第二個是檢察官的調查但是兩個途徑都稍慢所以你希望說未來修法可以對於這個外網近外網站涉及兒少色情的授權的立即封網但是同一天蔡新祥部長就說依照現行的法律行政處分可以由主管級分也就是衛福部去做這樣下架封網的動作\n331732\t350837\t欸根本報告因為齁那個我們的施行細則裡面有規定我知道 行政處分的話要先有一個送達我知道你剛剛有講跟委員說有這個法律風險對不對對但我要告訴部長喔因為你有選擇你不是沒選擇因為你最後還是選擇對不對但你剛剛一直不斷的推脫說是法律風險\n351897\t371020\t可是你當初本來就可以選擇做或不做你當初不想要承擔這個法律風險造成人民這個暴露在受害的風險當中那你現在當然就要負政治風險啦對不對這等了800多天對吧你不能全部都推給法律法律風險嗎800多天不能說我就封網了太拖太久\n371660\t397193\t好但是你剛剛有說好幾個細則所以你也晚處理了吧對吧所以因為你說當初有法律風險所以我要告訴你衛福部是能有所作為但是毫無作為拖到最後一刻媒體不報民貸不逼法務部不說會福部就不做那當然你們最後才從善如流趕快發文給數法部請他趕快封網但是看得出來這就是一個不敢承擔在互踢皮球的行為\n398514\t423274\t讓我告訴你這剛說800多天其實我們真的不知道800多天到底在幹嘛加害者、付費會員、被害者也都不斷的在增加而且沒有封網的情況之下反正搞到現在金辦的這個警員也說也具名的受訪說其中有很多惡意殘酷的影像犯罪手法跟受害者的規模已經超過南韓的N號房事件所發生的性犯罪\n424434\t437365\t而這個創意這個該網站至少有三、四千位的受害者另外一個網站有一千多位的受害者包含很多大專院校臺大醫學院、北醫女等等很多廁所都被偷拍甚至\n438376\t456353\t我要告訴部長6年前就有人就有受害者出現了他在Dcard上面有說受害者表示他6年前到外縣市去旅遊的時候被偷拍3年前報案結果受理單位說一句基本上抓不到還IP設在海外就沒有下文了\n457809\t470157\t訴發部、衛福部、內政部都缺乏橫向溝通啊消極不處理才讓這個受害者被偷拍6年這個論壇經營也超過10年多了不只抓不到兇手現在論壇還持續營運喔\n472153\t490736\t所以甚至這件事情現在看起來好像燒起來看似結束了但是後續的憂鬱和恐懼都沒有散去這個受害者他說這是受害者他說的他說他哭了好久不敢跟任何人訴說他對自己很生氣為什麼沒有保護好自己\n491806\t519168\t我聽到這句話的時候我覺得很感慨為什麼我們的國家可以無能到讓受害的受害者受害女性被偷拍了卻只能夠責怪自己沒有保護好自己這完全不對啊對吧所以你看看南韓喔這個文在寅也在第一時間出面他說下這個下令要嚴辦等等的但是我們台灣呢感覺到現在我們還是一直在互踢皮球啊一直找藉口對不對\n520307\t542195\t而且我想要給您看的是我們的總統、副總統到現在也都沒有講話總統可以在拜登的狗狗死掉之後在他推特上面留言哀悼可是這件事情卻涉及自己國人有4千多位、5千多位的受害者甚至在過去兩年臉書的這個RESO社團被害者一直在疊加他都還沒有發聲欸這樣子對嗎?部長這一個齁\n546557\t575231\t首先這是要有這個技術才能夠去做這件事情去防止的事情所以2020年開始算我是覺得這樣是可能的好部長先不再找理由我要給你看一個事情這是剛剛是6年6年多前就有受害者出現所以我們政府單位是消極沒有跨部會的整合但是你還記得我上次有問過我國的自殺統計數據參照圖表近年的這個年輕女性的自殺率莫名的攀升\n576567\t592723\t我想要請問部長你們有沒有做過年輕女性的自殺率提高和兒少性剝削之間相關性的研究這個是沒有沒有做兩個相關性的研究是沒有那我建議喔因為你目前沒有辦法排除有沒有可能是這個原因是建議是不是應該啟動專案來調查一下\n601286\t612773\t我覺得應該要好好瞭解一下為什麼會發生這樣的事情因為從剛剛網路上的人這樣說你就知道這個受害者是好幾千萬而且這幾年莫名的攀升喔這個論壇的出現也是這幾年的事情\n613613\t633171\t好 所以部長這個我們蔡總統常常說沒有人是局外人可是看到我們現在受到性剝削的兒少的如何保護我看我們蔡總統跟我們現在的賴副總統都沒有發生看起來到現在還是局外人另外修法的有關修法的部分我想要請問部長你有沒有發現這次論壇的\n634861\t662984\t整個經營裡面有人負責這個成為高級會員裡面有會員負責要發包芯片的需求有會員接單去偷拍有人接單了再委託其他人去偷拍有人管理會員有人管帳甚至這個主謀老馬是負責整個網站的架設還可以在2022年的時候把這個網站移到美國去我想請教部長這麼綿密的組織分工從事犯罪行為是不是組織犯罪\n665074\t688593\t理論上來講也是一種形式的組織犯罪對 那麼我想要請教法務部還有我們的衛福部為什麼針對這類型的犯罪沒有用組織犯罪條例來辦報告委員 就是那個組織犯罪防制條例它有相關對於那個組織犯罪它的一個定義那基本上它可能要有一個結構性、牟利性或者是長期性\n689242\t712425\t這看起來還不夠結構、不夠牟利、不夠長期嗎?因為案件在地檢署假官偵辦當中那我們尊重假官按照他整個偵查調查的結果認定事實跟適用法律整體的評價那假設適用的法律有不妥適之處在日後起訴一審的時候都還有變更法條的可能性我們尊重假官最後他認識用法的結果\n713106\t734241\t部長我是建議現行的41條裡面有說公務員或公職人員犯兒少性剝削條例刑度要加重二分之一那我是希望我也主張提出是不是41條之一的草案要新增這個以組織犯罪以組織刑事犯這個本條例的罪應該要加重期刑二分之一不知道部長認不認同這樣的方向\n735322\t745462\t我想這個會牽涉到比較是法務部這邊他的判斷那也就是說這樣子去加重提醒的話那在整個法的橫平性到底是如何\n746345\t765597\t我覺得這個事情要審慎看待請好好的研議評估好嗎因為這等於是大開後門這個組織犯罪已經這麼嚴重了你們還看不到還不去修然後公務人員這些東西犯了要加重二分之一那難道這些組織犯罪不用加重二分之一嗎這應該是很合理的事情不要再推給這個其他的理由好嗎\n766657\t780324\t最後現行法的30條也規定對於性剝削的兒少被害人他要進行輔導甚至必要的協助應該至少進行一年以上可是我感覺這個地板是不是太低\n785522\t806448\t我希望是不是可以把地板提高到三年因為一年的事情這個東西很多一年以後你都還不知道後續會發生什麼事情可能導致更多的社會情況的發生可以思考一下但是這樣子提高到三年以上的話是否有他的實力這個也是要\n808488\t834215\t目前有一些案子是已經有我們有一些數據大概可以去做一些分析請部長好好的審慎的看待不要再用消極被動的態度去處理這個事情最後我還要再提一個現在AI的發展已經發展得很快所以我們希望這個不法的壞人走在前頭我們政府應該要趕快有所規範避免這個AI變成性犯罪在內的不法工具我想要講的事情就是\n835424\t858903\t我們應該要提早因應我們可以看不管是歐盟或者是美國下一頁不管是歐盟或美國其實他們都已經有相關的在研議要怎麼處理這些事情甚至他可以在這個AI軟體的技術上面就直接設定說他不可以從事哪些問題他不可以去問哪些問題不可以產生哪些東西所以我們不曉得我們的速發部有沒有相對的因應請問速發部\n870138\t888799\t這個AI的這個部分的話我們也有配合這個因為國科會其實上個禮拜也有表示就是他們有考慮這個利用AI的這個技術然後組成這個跨部會的這跨領域的這個專家學者來研究是不是可以\n890560\t916547\t來這個用AI detect這個偵測這個部分所以你們現在才要開始做啊你們一年這麼多預算到底在幹嘛因為這個東西在國外老早就做了你在歐洲你在歐盟或在美國甚至一些敏感的詞彙你是不能問的那現在到現在我們才要做這些事情是不是太慢了我請你們好好回去趕快加緊腳步去做這些事情這個國際上其他國家都已經走在很前面了我們身為一個所謂的IT大國\n917788\t920732\t人工智能軟體工程師的國家我們怎麼可以走這麼後面好 謝謝好 謝謝等一下蘇星泉委員發言結束\n","txt":"主席好 有請薛部長部長你好最近媒體有陸續公佈新內閣的這個內定名單請問部長有沒有接受到徵詢的電話了嗎還是一無所惜沒有是不是那部長請問你認為一個稱職的衛福部長應該具備哪一些能力那下一任的衛福部長應該要有什麼樣的經歷才稱得上事任\n這個可能不是由我來回答因為這個是這個行政院長要考慮好那我也知道你大概會這樣講喔所以你覺得下一任的部長有哪些問題要優先解決的例舉三項好不好\n目前大概有幾個重點第一個當然就比較大家比較關心的食安的問題那第二個大概就是健保的問題那第三個大概就是這一個兒少保護的社安的問題對所以你提到的都是我想要講的就是至少是不是應該要懂食安、社安、醫藥安全、健保等等的那如果沒有辦法一次搞懂這幾大業務的話這樣子新人大概要多久才可以上手\n所以我們希望看到的是專業肯做事的政務官不要互踢皮球的政務官\n再來部長最近這個不管是什麼腸病毒、流感、新冠甚至是食安的問題我想各大小醫院的床位都很緊繃那其實醫院是有床位的據我們了解但主要也是護理人員不足所以造成護理人員流失的問題當然很重要一塊是薪資問題我想您也點頭我看得出來在勞動部在2022年的時候有去調查這個護理人員的薪資月薪資大約是47000多塊而且是加上獎金後的數字\n那請教部長護理師這麼辛苦喔沒有平均年薪不到70萬我想這樣子請得到人嗎?是不是流失的很重要的原因呢?這個要是要看是這個最低的出任的薪資還是平均的薪資\n平均薪資的話應該接近70萬所以還是沒有到70萬嘛所以現在他們的這個工會都很希望是不是我們政府可以保障他們至少70萬的薪資起跳有沒有可能部長有政策性的宣示可以透過各種不然薪資補貼啦獎勵方案啊或者是等等的方式可以讓他們達到這樣的標準和水準\n一般來講的話大概政府很難去保證說各種行業他的這個最低薪資是多少那您本人覺得值不值持他們的這個薪資待遇我覺得這個要從長計議因為光是在醫療產業裡面就各種不同的專業人員這個恐怕沒有那麼簡單好來那衛福部去年在健保總額有專款這個40億獎勵三班的這個護理人員\n當然最近在3月4日的時候我們鄭文燦副院長也在臺灣社區醫院跟衛福部的政策溝通會議上和代表們達成共識就是說護理獎獎勵的夜班費的層級的差距的縮減你可以到時候看這個圖表包含這個大夜班的醫學中心維持1000可是區域醫院從800元提升到950元好等等的這個數字在這個表格上面的我想要問說那這筆費用何時會入帳\n最後部分的話其實我們在等我們送到行政院去的一個健保基金的這個受制運用管理辦法的修正對我知道那我知道你會這樣講那會大概增加多少經費啊預計差不多一億多啦一億多好那這個健保總額支出還是用公務預算支出\n就是由這個公務預算抑制到健保的那一筆錢去支出因為現在媒體就像你說的說這筆帳是卡在行政院裡面喔因為主計總署認為說應該有總額支出而不應該用公務預算來撥補所以我是想說這個部分我想部長用總額支出可能加碼並不太合理喔因為這樣又會稀釋到健保點值\n那重點是難道各醫院這個什麼時候要公告實施也還不確定那現在應該快了快了是不是那你可不可以在4月底之前給一個答覆\n因為我現在等那個行政院那邊批下來上一次副院長已經有召集我們跟主席總署做了一個協商大概有一個成果所以現在等那個行政院那邊批下來所以4月底前應該是可以答覆有機會有機會所以還不敢保證對好那要請這個部長持續緊盯好不好好再來進入正題喔部長關於你遲遲不立即發布這個行政命令給訴法部要求封網\n為此你上週解釋說封網有兩個方法一個是行政的處分那第二個是檢察官的調查但是兩個途徑都稍慢所以你希望說未來修法可以對於這個外網近外網站涉及兒少色情的授權的立即封網但是同一天蔡新祥部長就說依照現行的法律行政處分可以由主管級分也就是衛福部去做這樣下架封網的動作\n欸根本報告因為齁那個我們的施行細則裡面有規定我知道 行政處分的話要先有一個送達我知道你剛剛有講跟委員說有這個法律風險對不對對但我要告訴部長喔因為你有選擇你不是沒選擇因為你最後還是選擇對不對但你剛剛一直不斷的推脫說是法律風險\n可是你當初本來就可以選擇做或不做你當初不想要承擔這個法律風險造成人民這個暴露在受害的風險當中那你現在當然就要負政治風險啦對不對這等了800多天對吧你不能全部都推給法律法律風險嗎800多天不能說我就封網了太拖太久\n好但是你剛剛有說好幾個細則所以你也晚處理了吧對吧所以因為你說當初有法律風險所以我要告訴你衛福部是能有所作為但是毫無作為拖到最後一刻媒體不報民貸不逼法務部不說會福部就不做那當然你們最後才從善如流趕快發文給數法部請他趕快封網但是看得出來這就是一個不敢承擔在互踢皮球的行為\n讓我告訴你這剛說800多天其實我們真的不知道800多天到底在幹嘛加害者、付費會員、被害者也都不斷的在增加而且沒有封網的情況之下反正搞到現在金辦的這個警員也說也具名的受訪說其中有很多惡意殘酷的影像犯罪手法跟受害者的規模已經超過南韓的N號房事件所發生的性犯罪\n而這個創意這個該網站至少有三、四千位的受害者另外一個網站有一千多位的受害者包含很多大專院校臺大醫學院、北醫女等等很多廁所都被偷拍甚至\n我要告訴部長6年前就有人就有受害者出現了他在Dcard上面有說受害者表示他6年前到外縣市去旅遊的時候被偷拍3年前報案結果受理單位說一句基本上抓不到還IP設在海外就沒有下文了\n訴發部、衛福部、內政部都缺乏橫向溝通啊消極不處理才讓這個受害者被偷拍6年這個論壇經營也超過10年多了不只抓不到兇手現在論壇還持續營運喔\n所以甚至這件事情現在看起來好像燒起來看似結束了但是後續的憂鬱和恐懼都沒有散去這個受害者他說這是受害者他說的他說他哭了好久不敢跟任何人訴說他對自己很生氣為什麼沒有保護好自己\n我聽到這句話的時候我覺得很感慨為什麼我們的國家可以無能到讓受害的受害者受害女性被偷拍了卻只能夠責怪自己沒有保護好自己這完全不對啊對吧所以你看看南韓喔這個文在寅也在第一時間出面他說下這個下令要嚴辦等等的但是我們台灣呢感覺到現在我們還是一直在互踢皮球啊一直找藉口對不對\n而且我想要給您看的是我們的總統、副總統到現在也都沒有講話總統可以在拜登的狗狗死掉之後在他推特上面留言哀悼可是這件事情卻涉及自己國人有4千多位、5千多位的受害者甚至在過去兩年臉書的這個RESO社團被害者一直在疊加他都還沒有發聲欸這樣子對嗎?部長這一個齁\n首先這是要有這個技術才能夠去做這件事情去防止的事情所以2020年開始算我是覺得這樣是可能的好部長先不再找理由我要給你看一個事情這是剛剛是6年6年多前就有受害者出現所以我們政府單位是消極沒有跨部會的整合但是你還記得我上次有問過我國的自殺統計數據參照圖表近年的這個年輕女性的自殺率莫名的攀升\n我想要請問部長你們有沒有做過年輕女性的自殺率提高和兒少性剝削之間相關性的研究這個是沒有沒有做兩個相關性的研究是沒有那我建議喔因為你目前沒有辦法排除有沒有可能是這個原因是建議是不是應該啟動專案來調查一下\n我覺得應該要好好瞭解一下為什麼會發生這樣的事情因為從剛剛網路上的人這樣說你就知道這個受害者是好幾千萬而且這幾年莫名的攀升喔這個論壇的出現也是這幾年的事情\n好 所以部長這個我們蔡總統常常說沒有人是局外人可是看到我們現在受到性剝削的兒少的如何保護我看我們蔡總統跟我們現在的賴副總統都沒有發生看起來到現在還是局外人另外修法的有關修法的部分我想要請問部長你有沒有發現這次論壇的\n整個經營裡面有人負責這個成為高級會員裡面有會員負責要發包芯片的需求有會員接單去偷拍有人接單了再委託其他人去偷拍有人管理會員有人管帳甚至這個主謀老馬是負責整個網站的架設還可以在2022年的時候把這個網站移到美國去我想請教部長這麼綿密的組織分工從事犯罪行為是不是組織犯罪\n理論上來講也是一種形式的組織犯罪對 那麼我想要請教法務部還有我們的衛福部為什麼針對這類型的犯罪沒有用組織犯罪條例來辦報告委員 就是那個組織犯罪防制條例它有相關對於那個組織犯罪它的一個定義那基本上它可能要有一個結構性、牟利性或者是長期性\n這看起來還不夠結構、不夠牟利、不夠長期嗎?因為案件在地檢署假官偵辦當中那我們尊重假官按照他整個偵查調查的結果認定事實跟適用法律整體的評價那假設適用的法律有不妥適之處在日後起訴一審的時候都還有變更法條的可能性我們尊重假官最後他認識用法的結果\n部長我是建議現行的41條裡面有說公務員或公職人員犯兒少性剝削條例刑度要加重二分之一那我是希望我也主張提出是不是41條之一的草案要新增這個以組織犯罪以組織刑事犯這個本條例的罪應該要加重期刑二分之一不知道部長認不認同這樣的方向\n我想這個會牽涉到比較是法務部這邊他的判斷那也就是說這樣子去加重提醒的話那在整個法的橫平性到底是如何\n我覺得這個事情要審慎看待請好好的研議評估好嗎因為這等於是大開後門這個組織犯罪已經這麼嚴重了你們還看不到還不去修然後公務人員這些東西犯了要加重二分之一那難道這些組織犯罪不用加重二分之一嗎這應該是很合理的事情不要再推給這個其他的理由好嗎\n最後現行法的30條也規定對於性剝削的兒少被害人他要進行輔導甚至必要的協助應該至少進行一年以上可是我感覺這個地板是不是太低\n我希望是不是可以把地板提高到三年因為一年的事情這個東西很多一年以後你都還不知道後續會發生什麼事情可能導致更多的社會情況的發生可以思考一下但是這樣子提高到三年以上的話是否有他的實力這個也是要\n目前有一些案子是已經有我們有一些數據大概可以去做一些分析請部長好好的審慎的看待不要再用消極被動的態度去處理這個事情最後我還要再提一個現在AI的發展已經發展得很快所以我們希望這個不法的壞人走在前頭我們政府應該要趕快有所規範避免這個AI變成性犯罪在內的不法工具我想要講的事情就是\n我們應該要提早因應我們可以看不管是歐盟或者是美國下一頁不管是歐盟或美國其實他們都已經有相關的在研議要怎麼處理這些事情甚至他可以在這個AI軟體的技術上面就直接設定說他不可以從事哪些問題他不可以去問哪些問題不可以產生哪些東西所以我們不曉得我們的速發部有沒有相對的因應請問速發部\n這個AI的這個部分的話我們也有配合這個因為國科會其實上個禮拜也有表示就是他們有考慮這個利用AI的這個技術然後組成這個跨部會的這跨領域的這個專家學者來研究是不是可以\n來這個用AI detect這個偵測這個部分所以你們現在才要開始做啊你們一年這麼多預算到底在幹嘛因為這個東西在國外老早就做了你在歐洲你在歐盟或在美國甚至一些敏感的詞彙你是不能問的那現在到現在我們才要做這些事情是不是太慢了我請你們好好回去趕快加緊腳步去做這些事情這個國際上其他國家都已經走在很前面了我們身為一個所謂的IT大國\n人工智能軟體工程師的國家我們怎麼可以走這麼後面好 謝謝好 謝謝等一下蘇星泉委員發言結束\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.470 --> 00:28.701\n主席好有請薛部長部長你好最近媒體有陸續公佈新內閣的這個內定名單請問部長有沒有接受到徵詢的電話了嗎還是一無所惜沒有是不是那部長請問你認為一個稱職的衛福部長應該具備哪一些能力那下一任的衛福部長應該要有什麼樣的經歷才稱得上事任\n\n00:29.976 --> 00:43.174\n這個可能不是由我來回答因為這個是這個行政院長要考慮好那我也知道你大概會這樣講喔所以你覺得下一任的部長有哪些問題要優先解決的例舉三項好不好\n\n00:44.709 --> 01:12.328\n目前大概有幾個重點第一個當然就比較大家比較關心的食安的問題那第二個大概就是健保的問題那第三個大概就是這一個兒少保護的社安的問題對所以你提到的都是我想要講的就是至少是不是應該要懂食安、社安、醫藥安全、健保等等的那如果沒有辦法一次搞懂這幾大業務的話這樣子新人大概要多久才可以上手\n\n01:13.069 --> 01:16.232\n所以我們希望看到的是專業肯做事的政務官不要互踢皮球的政務官\n\n01:39.486 --> 02:08.686\n再來部長最近這個不管是什麼腸病毒、流感、新冠甚至是食安的問題我想各大小醫院的床位都很緊繃那其實醫院是有床位的據我們了解但主要也是護理人員不足所以造成護理人員流失的問題當然很重要一塊是薪資問題我想您也點頭我看得出來在勞動部在2022年的時候有去調查這個護理人員的薪資月薪資大約是47000多塊而且是加上獎金後的數字\n\n02:09.606 --> 02:24.939\n那請教部長護理師這麼辛苦喔沒有平均年薪不到70萬我想這樣子請得到人嗎?是不是流失的很重要的原因呢?這個要是要看是這個最低的出任的薪資還是平均的薪資\n\n02:26.148 --> 02:48.929\n平均薪資的話應該接近70萬所以還是沒有到70萬嘛所以現在他們的這個工會都很希望是不是我們政府可以保障他們至少70萬的薪資起跳有沒有可能部長有政策性的宣示可以透過各種不然薪資補貼啦獎勵方案啊或者是等等的方式可以讓他們達到這樣的標準和水準\n\n02:49.409 --> 03:10.820\n一般來講的話大概政府很難去保證說各種行業他的這個最低薪資是多少那您本人覺得值不值持他們的這個薪資待遇我覺得這個要從長計議因為光是在醫療產業裡面就各種不同的專業人員這個恐怕沒有那麼簡單好來那衛福部去年在健保總額有專款這個40億獎勵三班的這個護理人員\n\n03:15.842 --> 03:41.875\n當然最近在3月4日的時候我們鄭文燦副院長也在臺灣社區醫院跟衛福部的政策溝通會議上和代表們達成共識就是說護理獎獎勵的夜班費的層級的差距的縮減你可以到時候看這個圖表包含這個大夜班的醫學中心維持1000可是區域醫院從800元提升到950元好等等的這個數字在這個表格上面的我想要問說那這筆費用何時會入帳\n\n03:44.797 --> 04:02.830\n最後部分的話其實我們在等我們送到行政院去的一個健保基金的這個受制運用管理辦法的修正對我知道那我知道你會這樣講那會大概增加多少經費啊預計差不多一億多啦一億多好那這個健保總額支出還是用公務預算支出\n\n04:03.790 --> 04:25.388\n就是由這個公務預算抑制到健保的那一筆錢去支出因為現在媒體就像你說的說這筆帳是卡在行政院裡面喔因為主計總署認為說應該有總額支出而不應該用公務預算來撥補所以我是想說這個部分我想部長用總額支出可能加碼並不太合理喔因為這樣又會稀釋到健保點值\n\n04:25.948 --> 04:35.834\n那重點是難道各醫院這個什麼時候要公告實施也還不確定那現在應該快了快了是不是那你可不可以在4月底之前給一個答覆\n\n04:36.745 --> 05:04.563\n因為我現在等那個行政院那邊批下來上一次副院長已經有召集我們跟主席總署做了一個協商大概有一個成果所以現在等那個行政院那邊批下來所以4月底前應該是可以答覆有機會有機會所以還不敢保證對好那要請這個部長持續緊盯好不好好再來進入正題喔部長關於你遲遲不立即發布這個行政命令給訴法部要求封網\n\n05:05.960 --> 05:29.128\n為此你上週解釋說封網有兩個方法一個是行政的處分那第二個是檢察官的調查但是兩個途徑都稍慢所以你希望說未來修法可以對於這個外網近外網站涉及兒少色情的授權的立即封網但是同一天蔡新祥部長就說依照現行的法律行政處分可以由主管級分也就是衛福部去做這樣下架封網的動作\n\n05:31.732 --> 05:50.837\n欸根本報告因為齁那個我們的施行細則裡面有規定我知道行政處分的話要先有一個送達我知道你剛剛有講跟委員說有這個法律風險對不對對但我要告訴部長喔因為你有選擇你不是沒選擇因為你最後還是選擇對不對但你剛剛一直不斷的推脫說是法律風險\n\n05:51.897 --> 06:11.020\n可是你當初本來就可以選擇做或不做你當初不想要承擔這個法律風險造成人民這個暴露在受害的風險當中那你現在當然就要負政治風險啦對不對這等了800多天對吧你不能全部都推給法律法律風險嗎800多天不能說我就封網了太拖太久\n\n06:11.660 --> 06:37.193\n好但是你剛剛有說好幾個細則所以你也晚處理了吧對吧所以因為你說當初有法律風險所以我要告訴你衛福部是能有所作為但是毫無作為拖到最後一刻媒體不報民貸不逼法務部不說會福部就不做那當然你們最後才從善如流趕快發文給數法部請他趕快封網但是看得出來這就是一個不敢承擔在互踢皮球的行為\n\n06:38.514 --> 07:03.274\n讓我告訴你這剛說800多天其實我們真的不知道800多天到底在幹嘛加害者、付費會員、被害者也都不斷的在增加而且沒有封網的情況之下反正搞到現在金辦的這個警員也說也具名的受訪說其中有很多惡意殘酷的影像犯罪手法跟受害者的規模已經超過南韓的N號房事件所發生的性犯罪\n\n07:04.434 --> 07:17.365\n而這個創意這個該網站至少有三、四千位的受害者另外一個網站有一千多位的受害者包含很多大專院校臺大醫學院、北醫女等等很多廁所都被偷拍甚至\n\n07:18.376 --> 07:36.353\n我要告訴部長6年前就有人就有受害者出現了他在Dcard上面有說受害者表示他6年前到外縣市去旅遊的時候被偷拍3年前報案結果受理單位說一句基本上抓不到還IP設在海外就沒有下文了\n\n07:37.809 --> 07:50.157\n訴發部、衛福部、內政部都缺乏橫向溝通啊消極不處理才讓這個受害者被偷拍6年這個論壇經營也超過10年多了不只抓不到兇手現在論壇還持續營運喔\n\n07:52.153 --> 08:10.736\n所以甚至這件事情現在看起來好像燒起來看似結束了但是後續的憂鬱和恐懼都沒有散去這個受害者他說這是受害者他說的他說他哭了好久不敢跟任何人訴說他對自己很生氣為什麼沒有保護好自己\n\n08:11.806 --> 08:39.168\n我聽到這句話的時候我覺得很感慨為什麼我們的國家可以無能到讓受害的受害者受害女性被偷拍了卻只能夠責怪自己沒有保護好自己這完全不對啊對吧所以你看看南韓喔這個文在寅也在第一時間出面他說下這個下令要嚴辦等等的但是我們台灣呢感覺到現在我們還是一直在互踢皮球啊一直找藉口對不對\n\n08:40.307 --> 09:02.195\n而且我想要給您看的是我們的總統、副總統到現在也都沒有講話總統可以在拜登的狗狗死掉之後在他推特上面留言哀悼可是這件事情卻涉及自己國人有4千多位、5千多位的受害者甚至在過去兩年臉書的這個RESO社團被害者一直在疊加他都還沒有發聲欸這樣子對嗎?部長這一個齁\n\n09:06.557 --> 09:35.231\n首先這是要有這個技術才能夠去做這件事情去防止的事情所以2020年開始算我是覺得這樣是可能的好部長先不再找理由我要給你看一個事情這是剛剛是6年6年多前就有受害者出現所以我們政府單位是消極沒有跨部會的整合但是你還記得我上次有問過我國的自殺統計數據參照圖表近年的這個年輕女性的自殺率莫名的攀升\n\n09:36.567 --> 09:52.723\n我想要請問部長你們有沒有做過年輕女性的自殺率提高和兒少性剝削之間相關性的研究這個是沒有沒有做兩個相關性的研究是沒有那我建議喔因為你目前沒有辦法排除有沒有可能是這個原因是建議是不是應該啟動專案來調查一下\n\n10:01.286 --> 10:12.773\n我覺得應該要好好瞭解一下為什麼會發生這樣的事情因為從剛剛網路上的人這樣說你就知道這個受害者是好幾千萬而且這幾年莫名的攀升喔這個論壇的出現也是這幾年的事情\n\n10:13.613 --> 10:33.171\n好所以部長這個我們蔡總統常常說沒有人是局外人可是看到我們現在受到性剝削的兒少的如何保護我看我們蔡總統跟我們現在的賴副總統都沒有發生看起來到現在還是局外人另外修法的有關修法的部分我想要請問部長你有沒有發現這次論壇的\n\n10:34.861 --> 11:02.984\n整個經營裡面有人負責這個成為高級會員裡面有會員負責要發包芯片的需求有會員接單去偷拍有人接單了再委託其他人去偷拍有人管理會員有人管帳甚至這個主謀老馬是負責整個網站的架設還可以在2022年的時候把這個網站移到美國去我想請教部長這麼綿密的組織分工從事犯罪行為是不是組織犯罪\n\n11:05.074 --> 11:28.593\n理論上來講也是一種形式的組織犯罪對那麼我想要請教法務部還有我們的衛福部為什麼針對這類型的犯罪沒有用組織犯罪條例來辦報告委員就是那個組織犯罪防制條例它有相關對於那個組織犯罪它的一個定義那基本上它可能要有一個結構性、牟利性或者是長期性\n\n11:29.242 --> 11:52.425\n這看起來還不夠結構、不夠牟利、不夠長期嗎?因為案件在地檢署假官偵辦當中那我們尊重假官按照他整個偵查調查的結果認定事實跟適用法律整體的評價那假設適用的法律有不妥適之處在日後起訴一審的時候都還有變更法條的可能性我們尊重假官最後他認識用法的結果\n\n11:53.106 --> 12:14.241\n部長我是建議現行的41條裡面有說公務員或公職人員犯兒少性剝削條例刑度要加重二分之一那我是希望我也主張提出是不是41條之一的草案要新增這個以組織犯罪以組織刑事犯這個本條例的罪應該要加重期刑二分之一不知道部長認不認同這樣的方向\n\n12:15.322 --> 12:25.462\n我想這個會牽涉到比較是法務部這邊他的判斷那也就是說這樣子去加重提醒的話那在整個法的橫平性到底是如何\n\n12:26.345 --> 12:45.597\n我覺得這個事情要審慎看待請好好的研議評估好嗎因為這等於是大開後門這個組織犯罪已經這麼嚴重了你們還看不到還不去修然後公務人員這些東西犯了要加重二分之一那難道這些組織犯罪不用加重二分之一嗎這應該是很合理的事情不要再推給這個其他的理由好嗎\n\n12:46.657 --> 13:00.324\n最後現行法的30條也規定對於性剝削的兒少被害人他要進行輔導甚至必要的協助應該至少進行一年以上可是我感覺這個地板是不是太低\n\n13:05.522 --> 13:26.448\n我希望是不是可以把地板提高到三年因為一年的事情這個東西很多一年以後你都還不知道後續會發生什麼事情可能導致更多的社會情況的發生可以思考一下但是這樣子提高到三年以上的話是否有他的實力這個也是要\n\n13:28.488 --> 13:54.215\n目前有一些案子是已經有我們有一些數據大概可以去做一些分析請部長好好的審慎的看待不要再用消極被動的態度去處理這個事情最後我還要再提一個現在AI的發展已經發展得很快所以我們希望這個不法的壞人走在前頭我們政府應該要趕快有所規範避免這個AI變成性犯罪在內的不法工具我想要講的事情就是\n\n13:55.424 --> 14:18.903\n我們應該要提早因應我們可以看不管是歐盟或者是美國下一頁不管是歐盟或美國其實他們都已經有相關的在研議要怎麼處理這些事情甚至他可以在這個AI軟體的技術上面就直接設定說他不可以從事哪些問題他不可以去問哪些問題不可以產生哪些東西所以我們不曉得我們的速發部有沒有相對的因應請問速發部\n\n14:30.138 --> 14:48.799\n這個AI的這個部分的話我們也有配合這個因為國科會其實上個禮拜也有表示就是他們有考慮這個利用AI的這個技術然後組成這個跨部會的這跨領域的這個專家學者來研究是不是可以\n\n14:50.560 --> 15:16.547\n來這個用AIdetect這個偵測這個部分所以你們現在才要開始做啊你們一年這麼多預算到底在幹嘛因為這個東西在國外老早就做了你在歐洲你在歐盟或在美國甚至一些敏感的詞彙你是不能問的那現在到現在我們才要做這些事情是不是太慢了我請你們好好回去趕快加緊腳步去做這些事情這個國際上其他國家都已經走在很前面了我們身為一個所謂的IT大國\n\n15:17.788 --> 15:20.732\n人工智能軟體工程師的國家我們怎麼可以走這麼後面好謝謝好謝謝等一下蘇星泉委員發言結束\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.47,"end":28.701,"text":"主席好 有請薛部長部長你好最近媒體有陸續公佈新內閣的這個內定名單請問部長有沒有接受到徵詢的電話了嗎還是一無所惜沒有是不是那部長請問你認為一個稱職的衛福部長應該具備哪一些能力那下一任的衛福部長應該要有什麼樣的經歷才稱得上事任"},{"start":29.976,"end":43.174,"text":"這個可能不是由我來回答因為這個是這個行政院長要考慮好那我也知道你大概會這樣講喔所以你覺得下一任的部長有哪些問題要優先解決的例舉三項好不好"},{"start":44.709,"end":72.328,"text":"目前大概有幾個重點第一個當然就比較大家比較關心的食安的問題那第二個大概就是健保的問題那第三個大概就是這一個兒少保護的社安的問題對所以你提到的都是我想要講的就是至少是不是應該要懂食安、社安、醫藥安全、健保等等的那如果沒有辦法一次搞懂這幾大業務的話這樣子新人大概要多久才可以上手"},{"start":73.069,"end":76.232,"text":"所以我們希望看到的是專業肯做事的政務官不要互踢皮球的政務官"},{"start":99.486,"end":128.686,"text":"再來部長最近這個不管是什麼腸病毒、流感、新冠甚至是食安的問題我想各大小醫院的床位都很緊繃那其實醫院是有床位的據我們了解但主要也是護理人員不足所以造成護理人員流失的問題當然很重要一塊是薪資問題我想您也點頭我看得出來在勞動部在2022年的時候有去調查這個護理人員的薪資月薪資大約是47000多塊而且是加上獎金後的數字"},{"start":129.606,"end":144.939,"text":"那請教部長護理師這麼辛苦喔沒有平均年薪不到70萬我想這樣子請得到人嗎?是不是流失的很重要的原因呢?這個要是要看是這個最低的出任的薪資還是平均的薪資"},{"start":146.148,"end":168.929,"text":"平均薪資的話應該接近70萬所以還是沒有到70萬嘛所以現在他們的這個工會都很希望是不是我們政府可以保障他們至少70萬的薪資起跳有沒有可能部長有政策性的宣示可以透過各種不然薪資補貼啦獎勵方案啊或者是等等的方式可以讓他們達到這樣的標準和水準"},{"start":169.409,"end":190.82,"text":"一般來講的話大概政府很難去保證說各種行業他的這個最低薪資是多少那您本人覺得值不值持他們的這個薪資待遇我覺得這個要從長計議因為光是在醫療產業裡面就各種不同的專業人員這個恐怕沒有那麼簡單好來那衛福部去年在健保總額有專款這個40億獎勵三班的這個護理人員"},{"start":195.842,"end":221.875,"text":"當然最近在3月4日的時候我們鄭文燦副院長也在臺灣社區醫院跟衛福部的政策溝通會議上和代表們達成共識就是說護理獎獎勵的夜班費的層級的差距的縮減你可以到時候看這個圖表包含這個大夜班的醫學中心維持1000可是區域醫院從800元提升到950元好等等的這個數字在這個表格上面的我想要問說那這筆費用何時會入帳"},{"start":224.797,"end":242.83,"text":"最後部分的話其實我們在等我們送到行政院去的一個健保基金的這個受制運用管理辦法的修正對我知道那我知道你會這樣講那會大概增加多少經費啊預計差不多一億多啦一億多好那這個健保總額支出還是用公務預算支出"},{"start":243.79,"end":265.388,"text":"就是由這個公務預算抑制到健保的那一筆錢去支出因為現在媒體就像你說的說這筆帳是卡在行政院裡面喔因為主計總署認為說應該有總額支出而不應該用公務預算來撥補所以我是想說這個部分我想部長用總額支出可能加碼並不太合理喔因為這樣又會稀釋到健保點值"},{"start":265.948,"end":275.834,"text":"那重點是難道各醫院這個什麼時候要公告實施也還不確定那現在應該快了快了是不是那你可不可以在4月底之前給一個答覆"},{"start":276.745,"end":304.563,"text":"因為我現在等那個行政院那邊批下來上一次副院長已經有召集我們跟主席總署做了一個協商大概有一個成果所以現在等那個行政院那邊批下來所以4月底前應該是可以答覆有機會有機會所以還不敢保證對好那要請這個部長持續緊盯好不好好再來進入正題喔部長關於你遲遲不立即發布這個行政命令給訴法部要求封網"},{"start":305.96,"end":329.128,"text":"為此你上週解釋說封網有兩個方法一個是行政的處分那第二個是檢察官的調查但是兩個途徑都稍慢所以你希望說未來修法可以對於這個外網近外網站涉及兒少色情的授權的立即封網但是同一天蔡新祥部長就說依照現行的法律行政處分可以由主管級分也就是衛福部去做這樣下架封網的動作"},{"start":331.732,"end":350.837,"text":"欸根本報告因為齁那個我們的施行細則裡面有規定我知道 行政處分的話要先有一個送達我知道你剛剛有講跟委員說有這個法律風險對不對對但我要告訴部長喔因為你有選擇你不是沒選擇因為你最後還是選擇對不對但你剛剛一直不斷的推脫說是法律風險"},{"start":351.897,"end":371.02,"text":"可是你當初本來就可以選擇做或不做你當初不想要承擔這個法律風險造成人民這個暴露在受害的風險當中那你現在當然就要負政治風險啦對不對這等了800多天對吧你不能全部都推給法律法律風險嗎800多天不能說我就封網了太拖太久"},{"start":371.66,"end":397.193,"text":"好但是你剛剛有說好幾個細則所以你也晚處理了吧對吧所以因為你說當初有法律風險所以我要告訴你衛福部是能有所作為但是毫無作為拖到最後一刻媒體不報民貸不逼法務部不說會福部就不做那當然你們最後才從善如流趕快發文給數法部請他趕快封網但是看得出來這就是一個不敢承擔在互踢皮球的行為"},{"start":398.514,"end":423.274,"text":"讓我告訴你這剛說800多天其實我們真的不知道800多天到底在幹嘛加害者、付費會員、被害者也都不斷的在增加而且沒有封網的情況之下反正搞到現在金辦的這個警員也說也具名的受訪說其中有很多惡意殘酷的影像犯罪手法跟受害者的規模已經超過南韓的N號房事件所發生的性犯罪"},{"start":424.434,"end":437.365,"text":"而這個創意這個該網站至少有三、四千位的受害者另外一個網站有一千多位的受害者包含很多大專院校臺大醫學院、北醫女等等很多廁所都被偷拍甚至"},{"start":438.376,"end":456.353,"text":"我要告訴部長6年前就有人就有受害者出現了他在Dcard上面有說受害者表示他6年前到外縣市去旅遊的時候被偷拍3年前報案結果受理單位說一句基本上抓不到還IP設在海外就沒有下文了"},{"start":457.809,"end":470.157,"text":"訴發部、衛福部、內政部都缺乏橫向溝通啊消極不處理才讓這個受害者被偷拍6年這個論壇經營也超過10年多了不只抓不到兇手現在論壇還持續營運喔"},{"start":472.153,"end":490.736,"text":"所以甚至這件事情現在看起來好像燒起來看似結束了但是後續的憂鬱和恐懼都沒有散去這個受害者他說這是受害者他說的他說他哭了好久不敢跟任何人訴說他對自己很生氣為什麼沒有保護好自己"},{"start":491.806,"end":519.168,"text":"我聽到這句話的時候我覺得很感慨為什麼我們的國家可以無能到讓受害的受害者受害女性被偷拍了卻只能夠責怪自己沒有保護好自己這完全不對啊對吧所以你看看南韓喔這個文在寅也在第一時間出面他說下這個下令要嚴辦等等的但是我們台灣呢感覺到現在我們還是一直在互踢皮球啊一直找藉口對不對"},{"start":520.307,"end":542.195,"text":"而且我想要給您看的是我們的總統、副總統到現在也都沒有講話總統可以在拜登的狗狗死掉之後在他推特上面留言哀悼可是這件事情卻涉及自己國人有4千多位、5千多位的受害者甚至在過去兩年臉書的這個RESO社團被害者一直在疊加他都還沒有發聲欸這樣子對嗎?部長這一個齁"},{"start":546.557,"end":575.231,"text":"首先這是要有這個技術才能夠去做這件事情去防止的事情所以2020年開始算我是覺得這樣是可能的好部長先不再找理由我要給你看一個事情這是剛剛是6年6年多前就有受害者出現所以我們政府單位是消極沒有跨部會的整合但是你還記得我上次有問過我國的自殺統計數據參照圖表近年的這個年輕女性的自殺率莫名的攀升"},{"start":576.567,"end":592.723,"text":"我想要請問部長你們有沒有做過年輕女性的自殺率提高和兒少性剝削之間相關性的研究這個是沒有沒有做兩個相關性的研究是沒有那我建議喔因為你目前沒有辦法排除有沒有可能是這個原因是建議是不是應該啟動專案來調查一下"},{"start":601.286,"end":612.773,"text":"我覺得應該要好好瞭解一下為什麼會發生這樣的事情因為從剛剛網路上的人這樣說你就知道這個受害者是好幾千萬而且這幾年莫名的攀升喔這個論壇的出現也是這幾年的事情"},{"start":613.613,"end":633.171,"text":"好 所以部長這個我們蔡總統常常說沒有人是局外人可是看到我們現在受到性剝削的兒少的如何保護我看我們蔡總統跟我們現在的賴副總統都沒有發生看起來到現在還是局外人另外修法的有關修法的部分我想要請問部長你有沒有發現這次論壇的"},{"start":634.861,"end":662.984,"text":"整個經營裡面有人負責這個成為高級會員裡面有會員負責要發包芯片的需求有會員接單去偷拍有人接單了再委託其他人去偷拍有人管理會員有人管帳甚至這個主謀老馬是負責整個網站的架設還可以在2022年的時候把這個網站移到美國去我想請教部長這麼綿密的組織分工從事犯罪行為是不是組織犯罪"},{"start":665.074,"end":688.593,"text":"理論上來講也是一種形式的組織犯罪對 那麼我想要請教法務部還有我們的衛福部為什麼針對這類型的犯罪沒有用組織犯罪條例來辦報告委員 就是那個組織犯罪防制條例它有相關對於那個組織犯罪它的一個定義那基本上它可能要有一個結構性、牟利性或者是長期性"},{"start":689.242,"end":712.425,"text":"這看起來還不夠結構、不夠牟利、不夠長期嗎?因為案件在地檢署假官偵辦當中那我們尊重假官按照他整個偵查調查的結果認定事實跟適用法律整體的評價那假設適用的法律有不妥適之處在日後起訴一審的時候都還有變更法條的可能性我們尊重假官最後他認識用法的結果"},{"start":713.106,"end":734.241,"text":"部長我是建議現行的41條裡面有說公務員或公職人員犯兒少性剝削條例刑度要加重二分之一那我是希望我也主張提出是不是41條之一的草案要新增這個以組織犯罪以組織刑事犯這個本條例的罪應該要加重期刑二分之一不知道部長認不認同這樣的方向"},{"start":735.322,"end":745.462,"text":"我想這個會牽涉到比較是法務部這邊他的判斷那也就是說這樣子去加重提醒的話那在整個法的橫平性到底是如何"},{"start":746.345,"end":765.597,"text":"我覺得這個事情要審慎看待請好好的研議評估好嗎因為這等於是大開後門這個組織犯罪已經這麼嚴重了你們還看不到還不去修然後公務人員這些東西犯了要加重二分之一那難道這些組織犯罪不用加重二分之一嗎這應該是很合理的事情不要再推給這個其他的理由好嗎"},{"start":766.657,"end":780.324,"text":"最後現行法的30條也規定對於性剝削的兒少被害人他要進行輔導甚至必要的協助應該至少進行一年以上可是我感覺這個地板是不是太低"},{"start":785.522,"end":806.448,"text":"我希望是不是可以把地板提高到三年因為一年的事情這個東西很多一年以後你都還不知道後續會發生什麼事情可能導致更多的社會情況的發生可以思考一下但是這樣子提高到三年以上的話是否有他的實力這個也是要"},{"start":808.488,"end":834.215,"text":"目前有一些案子是已經有我們有一些數據大概可以去做一些分析請部長好好的審慎的看待不要再用消極被動的態度去處理這個事情最後我還要再提一個現在AI的發展已經發展得很快所以我們希望這個不法的壞人走在前頭我們政府應該要趕快有所規範避免這個AI變成性犯罪在內的不法工具我想要講的事情就是"},{"start":835.424,"end":858.903,"text":"我們應該要提早因應我們可以看不管是歐盟或者是美國下一頁不管是歐盟或美國其實他們都已經有相關的在研議要怎麼處理這些事情甚至他可以在這個AI軟體的技術上面就直接設定說他不可以從事哪些問題他不可以去問哪些問題不可以產生哪些東西所以我們不曉得我們的速發部有沒有相對的因應請問速發部"},{"start":870.138,"end":888.799,"text":"這個AI的這個部分的話我們也有配合這個因為國科會其實上個禮拜也有表示就是他們有考慮這個利用AI的這個技術然後組成這個跨部會的這跨領域的這個專家學者來研究是不是可以"},{"start":890.56,"end":916.547,"text":"來這個用AI detect這個偵測這個部分所以你們現在才要開始做啊你們一年這麼多預算到底在幹嘛因為這個東西在國外老早就做了你在歐洲你在歐盟或在美國甚至一些敏感的詞彙你是不能問的那現在到現在我們才要做這些事情是不是太慢了我請你們好好回去趕快加緊腳步去做這些事情這個國際上其他國家都已經走在很前面了我們身為一個所謂的IT大國"},{"start":917.788,"end":920.732,"text":"人工智能軟體工程師的國家我們怎麼可以走這麼後面好 謝謝好 謝謝等一下蘇星泉委員發言結束"}]}}}}