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\"考\", \"start\": 667.786, \"end\": 668.187, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 668.187, \"end\": 668.207, \"score\": 0.064}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,173 --> 00:00:01,434\n請部長請部長\n\n2\n00:00:11,155 --> 00:00:24,229\n今天委員會排的主題是要來討論外交部的國際合作發展政策的計畫我記得大概在一個多月前我也質詢過部長關乎我們在討論到氣候外交的國際合作的戰略\n\n3\n00:00:31,677 --> 00:00:56,546\n當初齊署部長也給我很正面的回應說願意來找行政院跟相關的部會來做這相關的研擬我在一個月後也想問一下部長這個事情有沒有進行進行到什麼程度有去了解但是你知道現在在transition的這個時候就做這些事情就會比較麻煩那尤其是有相關的這個部會的首長可能會有異動\n\n4\n00:00:57,667 --> 00:01:03,499\n所以在這種狀況之下要去做這件事情可能會有困難但是這個事情一直在我們的agenda上面\n\n5\n00:01:04,278 --> 00:01:27,698\n部長我其實一直想要提醒因為當然我們都知道其實在聯合國的機制下進行這些氣候方面的合作我們會有些先天上的困難但是其實現在在氣候跟淨零的議題上面其實恐怕也不是只有聯合國相關的管道就像部長我認為部長一定非常非常熟悉\n\n6\n00:01:28,459 --> 00:01:49,845\n就像現在國際上面尤其民主國家對於中國在輸出他們的新能源或者是這個新能源車上面都有很多的顧慮可能是他們低價傾銷的顧慮或者是資安上面的顧慮其實這些工作都可能可以是我們跟其他民主國家在氣候跟競爭上面\n\n7\n00:01:50,325 --> 00:01:50,345\n韓國瑜\n\n8\n00:02:12,407 --> 00:02:17,011\n這部分也希望部長可以納入去做相關的思考跟規劃這是第一個事情第一件事情是這個我們今天看我看了部長提供的這個\n\n9\n00:02:35,370 --> 00:02:52,357\n國際合作發展的政策的內容我其實很多都很樂見但我也看到裡面講到說我們要來協助很多夥伴國家提升數位治理能力提升數位治理能力當然是一件好事但我在這邊有幾件事情想要提醒部長部長我想先給你看一下\n\n10\n00:02:53,697 --> 00:02:53,838\n並沒有：\n\n11\n00:03:09,528 --> 00:03:27,554\n我簡單的來跟部長說一下這邊投書裡面大概有幾個很重要的重點他其實談到了其實如果我們要來對其他國家來做數位方案的協助的時候最大的重點是要如何跟該國社會建立緊密的合作默契跟合作的網絡這是第一點第二點是\n\n12\n00:03:30,134 --> 00:03:53,920\n這個要從社區居民的實質需求來導入這個數位的方案如果反客為主的話雖然居民可能形式上接受但可能不一定會形成實質的效益第三個是他說到其實應該要設法結合民間資源包括國內外的NGO或NPO來以利永續發展那最後一個是說要了解當地的風土民情跟數位服務的供應鏈的生態\n\n13\n00:03:55,420 --> 00:04:22,031\n這篇是郭澳煌的教授其實做的我覺得是很重要的建議部長你同不同意這幾點建議同意那我們其實像我們對烏克蘭或其他國家的數位重建的計畫我們有沒有納入這樣的設計跟考量部長就你所知有一些這一類的考量但是我們對烏克蘭的這個援助並沒有在那個數位發展上面做一個那個重點的這個發展\n\n14\n00:04:22,791 --> 00:04:50,427\n我相信因為尤其烏克蘭他是一個緊急的援助他有他的時間的壓力但這邊我想要跟部長其實在更仔細在談幾個事情我們其實在這數位發展的合作上當然有他技術面的部分我其實相信以臺灣的技術團隊來說的話我們技術團隊跟其他國家相比其實是很有可能是領先的我相信這件事情可是在談數位建設跟數位治理部分可能也不是只有技術面\n\n15\n00:04:51,488 --> 00:05:07,085\n很重要的部分是到底是真的能夠產生幫忙尤其是產生什麼樣的幫忙甚至提供的幫忙也是有責任的部長你同意嗎是當然部長所以我們現在在講幫友邦來建立或幫我們的夥伴來建立資通訊基礎建設\n\n16\n00:05:09,227 --> 00:05:37,054\n其實當然你可以把它當作純粹的技術工具可是用得好的話你可以在造福可是用不好的時候可能會有負面的影響我這邊其實想跟部長說部長現在我們看我們有翻了一下現在臺灣援助友邦的自動訊計畫這些計畫我有點進去看有一些是幫忙建立自動訊基礎建設但我也看到一些是幫我們的朋友建立人臉辨識或智慧影像監視系統\n\n17\n00:05:38,334 --> 00:05:46,229\n就部長知不知道其實這些包括人類辨識包括這個智慧影像監視系統用在哪裡部長知不知道\n\n18\n00:05:47,631 --> 00:06:15,536\n有些知道,比如說索馬利蘭他們的那個紅毛辨識系統就是因為要方便他們的這個投票的這種作為因為他們那個身份證建制並不是很普遍所以像這個最主要的功用是在這邊像這一類的我們也很擔心說這個比如像那個人臉辨識系統如果說遭到誤用的話這個的確是會有一些那個不好的這些後果\n\n19\n00:06:15,876 --> 00:06:35,957\n部長我要提醒其實像這些技術的導入其實是需要非常非常小心的這些技術即便要用在台灣假設在台灣使用我想非常多的人權組織跟NGO組織恐怕都會非常憂慮但這不是只是猜測說使用者他有善心還是壞心不是這樣子\n\n20\n00:06:36,698 --> 00:06:59,658\n就以臺灣的狀況來說我們其實已經逐漸知道這些技術如果要使用重要的是要有很多法律授權的配套包括權力保障上面的配套有沒有這些法制上面的配套其實是這些技術工具尤其是可能是有潛在倫理爭議或者是價值爭議的技術工具的使用的前提\n\n21\n00:07:01,086 --> 00:07:26,558\n所以這不是只是去猜測那個當權者他好心還是善心不是這樣子而已而是他有沒有相對應的準備充足這些相關的法律而且他是一個民主法制相關的工具因為我們都希望我們的這個援助計畫其實是以價值為導向的之前我們也聽過很多次我們很難想像我們今天號稱一個民主國家可是跟其他國家方面的合作是去\n\n22\n00:07:27,498 --> 00:07:54,556\n提供他們更多監視人民或者是擴張威權或擴張某些權力集中的工具我們很難想像這件事情所以部長這邊我們有看到類似的結果這邊不講哪一個國家但我是覺得部長恐怕對於現在這些技術的使用外交部是不是要再審慎的檢視一次我現在不先說他一定使用在什麼地方我不下這個定論但這恐怕是一個爭議性的技術\n\n23\n00:07:56,357 --> 00:08:13,086\n所瑪麗蘭說用這個紅魔辨識這其實沒有用到好這個生物辨識是可以用在很多不應該使用的地方的喔那他們有沒有相關的法規或他們的政策是什麼東西這部分我不知道我們的外管或我們的外交部掌握夠不夠清楚部長\n\n24\n00:08:14,669 --> 00:08:42,804\n我想那個有關於那個索馬利蘭是因為當時他們的那個選舉是我們希望能夠積極支持他們讓他們的那個民主能夠建構得更加成功那但是因為他們的人別的辨識是有問題的所以他們希望我們協助這個部分所以這個是協助他們的這個民主的發展那目前沒有看到任何的這種負面的這個狀況但是委員剛剛所說的的確是一個我們更加要小心一點的這個事情\n\n25\n00:08:43,784 --> 00:09:11,047\n只要有提供這些協助的話那我想我們的這個相關的法制作業應該也要更加的完善我們會來注意部長我覺得這邊有兩段工作第一段工作是我們要先知道我們提供的這個技術合作包括技術它可能是潛在有爭議的技術我們要第一點先知道這件事情第二個我再知道以後我不是說不能跟對方合作但要先確認對方的環境有沒有能夠好好使用這些技術用在我們期望的價值性工作的空間\n\n26\n00:09:12,188 --> 00:09:27,403\n我覺得這個也要確認第三個實際上面他怎麼用我們可能也要事後的檢核其實這裡面有好幾段的工作我希望外交部我們在做這些數位治理的合作的時候都應該做到位我們真的很不希望變成是國際的醜聞說哪一個國家他用了什麼台灣的技術\n\n27\n00:09:31,967 --> 00:10:00,134\n結果用在輿論前置或用在人權上面的前置我覺得這絕對對台灣是一個很不好的消息傳出去所以我這邊不談個案我今天不談個案但我覺得外交部應該要有一個系統性的檢視這個檢視我自己建議恐怕是不是能夠包括來請外交部請包括科技社會STS的專家包括數位人權的專家一起來協助外交部來檢視這些資通訊援外技術的把這些案例進行研究\n\n28\n00:10:00,794 --> 00:10:29,899\n那你們有個研究的報告他們做一個做一些診斷或建議那這個報告我自己是覺得可能兩個月內其實可以出來這兩個月內讓大家知道說欸我們還在做這些數位的協助上面還有什麼地方可以增進的空間部長這應該沒有問題吧我做很具體的建議應該沒有問題那個時間齁時間那個不要抓得那麼死啦三個月好不好也不一定說三個月那我們這邊來做那個整體的那個檢視那如果說可以提早我們就提早這樣子好不好\n\n29\n00:10:30,199 --> 00:10:56,781\n部長因為接下來也涉及到年終的時候大家就要討論下一個年度的預算的編列所以我覺得也讓大家能夠安心的話我覺得盡量應該要在下一個年度的預算出來之前給大家有一個明確說到底我們怎麼使用目前使用的狀況是什麼東西那請這些外部專家直接來進場來協助也不是只是我們自己內部公務員自己來講而已這部分部長我覺得請你大概在我至少覺得八月前啦好不好\n\n30\n00:10:57,562 --> 00:11:08,207\n我們盡量來做啦那我請國經司的司長就這件事情我們來做成一個完整的報告好沒問題謝謝然後也可以送到外交國防讓其他委員一起來參考好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1173\t1434\t請部長請部長\n11155\t24229\t今天委員會排的主題是要來討論外交部的國際合作發展政策的計畫我記得大概在一個多月前我也質詢過部長關乎我們在討論到氣候外交的國際合作的戰略\n31677\t56546\t當初齊署部長也給我很正面的回應說願意來找行政院跟相關的部會來做這相關的研擬我在一個月後也想問一下部長這個事情有沒有進行進行到什麼程度有去了解但是你知道現在在transition的這個時候就做這些事情就會比較麻煩那尤其是有相關的這個部會的首長可能會有異動\n57667\t63499\t所以在這種狀況之下要去做這件事情可能會有困難但是這個事情一直在我們的 agenda 上面\n64278\t87698\t部長我其實一直想要提醒因為當然我們都知道其實在聯合國的機制下進行這些氣候方面的合作我們會有些先天上的困難但是其實現在在氣候跟淨零的議題上面其實恐怕也不是只有聯合國相關的管道就像部長我認為部長一定非常非常熟悉\n88459\t109845\t就像現在國際上面尤其民主國家對於中國在輸出他們的新能源或者是這個新能源車上面都有很多的顧慮可能是他們低價傾銷的顧慮或者是資安上面的顧慮其實這些工作都可能可以是我們跟其他民主國家在氣候跟競爭上面\n110325\t110345\t韓國瑜\n132407\t137011\t這部分也希望部長可以納入去做相關的思考跟規劃這是第一個事情第一件事情是這個我們今天看我看了部長提供的這個\n155370\t172357\t國際合作發展的政策的內容我其實很多都很樂見但我也看到裡面講到說我們要來協助很多夥伴國家提升數位治理能力提升數位治理能力當然是一件好事但我在這邊有幾件事情想要提醒部長部長我想先給你看一下\n173697\t173838\t並沒有：\n189528\t207554\t我簡單的來跟部長說一下這邊投書裡面大概有幾個很重要的重點他其實談到了其實如果我們要來對其他國家來做數位方案的協助的時候最大的重點是要如何跟該國社會建立緊密的合作默契跟合作的網絡這是第一點第二點是\n210134\t233920\t這個要從社區居民的實質需求來導入這個數位的方案如果反客為主的話雖然居民可能形式上接受但可能不一定會形成實質的效益第三個是他說到其實應該要設法結合民間資源包括國內外的NGO或NPO來以利永續發展那最後一個是說要了解當地的風土民情跟數位服務的供應鏈的生態\n235420\t262031\t這篇是郭澳煌的教授其實做的我覺得是很重要的建議部長你同不同意這幾點建議同意那我們其實像我們對烏克蘭或其他國家的數位重建的計畫我們有沒有納入這樣的設計跟考量部長就你所知有一些這一類的考量但是我們對烏克蘭的這個援助並沒有在那個數位發展上面做一個那個重點的這個發展\n262791\t290427\t我相信因為尤其烏克蘭他是一個緊急的援助他有他的時間的壓力但這邊我想要跟部長其實在更仔細在談幾個事情我們其實在這數位發展的合作上當然有他技術面的部分我其實相信以臺灣的技術團隊來說的話我們技術團隊跟其他國家相比其實是很有可能是領先的我相信這件事情可是在談數位建設跟數位治理部分可能也不是只有技術面\n291488\t307085\t很重要的部分是到底是真的能夠產生幫忙尤其是產生什麼樣的幫忙甚至提供的幫忙也是有責任的部長你同意嗎是當然部長所以我們現在在講幫友邦來建立或幫我們的夥伴來建立資通訊基礎建設\n309227\t337054\t其實當然你可以把它當作純粹的技術工具可是用得好的話你可以在造福可是用不好的時候可能會有負面的影響我這邊其實想跟部長說部長現在我們看我們有翻了一下現在臺灣援助友邦的自動訊計畫這些計畫我有點進去看有一些是幫忙建立自動訊基礎建設但我也看到一些是幫我們的朋友建立人臉辨識或智慧影像監視系統\n338334\t346229\t就部長知不知道其實這些包括人類辨識包括這個智慧影像監視系統用在哪裡部長知不知道\n347631\t375536\t有些知道,比如說索馬利蘭他們的那個紅毛辨識系統就是因為要方便他們的這個投票的這種作為因為他們那個身份證建制並不是很普遍所以像這個最主要的功用是在這邊像這一類的我們也很擔心說這個比如像那個人臉辨識系統如果說遭到誤用的話這個的確是會有一些那個不好的這些後果\n375876\t395957\t部長我要提醒其實像這些技術的導入其實是需要非常非常小心的這些技術即便要用在台灣假設在台灣使用我想非常多的人權組織跟NGO組織恐怕都會非常憂慮但這不是只是猜測說使用者他有善心還是壞心不是這樣子\n396698\t419658\t就以臺灣的狀況來說我們其實已經逐漸知道這些技術如果要使用重要的是要有很多法律授權的配套包括權力保障上面的配套有沒有這些法制上面的配套其實是這些技術工具尤其是可能是有潛在倫理爭議或者是價值爭議的技術工具的使用的前提\n421086\t446558\t所以這不是只是去猜測那個當權者他好心還是善心不是這樣子而已而是他有沒有相對應的準備充足這些相關的法律而且他是一個民主法制相關的工具因為我們都希望我們的這個援助計畫其實是以價值為導向的之前我們也聽過很多次我們很難想像我們今天號稱一個民主國家可是跟其他國家方面的合作是去\n447498\t474556\t提供他們更多監視人民或者是擴張威權或擴張某些權力集中的工具我們很難想像這件事情所以部長這邊我們有看到類似的結果這邊不講哪一個國家但我是覺得部長恐怕對於現在這些技術的使用外交部是不是要再審慎的檢視一次我現在不先說他一定使用在什麼地方我不下這個定論但這恐怕是一個爭議性的技術\n476357\t493086\t所瑪麗蘭說用這個紅魔辨識這其實沒有用到好這個生物辨識是可以用在很多不應該使用的地方的喔那他們有沒有相關的法規或他們的政策是什麼東西這部分我不知道我們的外管或我們的外交部掌握夠不夠清楚部長\n494669\t522804\t我想那個有關於那個索馬利蘭是因為當時他們的那個選舉是我們希望能夠積極支持他們讓他們的那個民主能夠建構得更加成功那但是因為他們的人別的辨識是有問題的所以他們希望我們協助這個部分所以這個是協助他們的這個民主的發展那目前沒有看到任何的這種負面的這個狀況但是委員剛剛所說的的確是一個我們更加要小心一點的這個事情\n523784\t551047\t只要有提供這些協助的話那我想我們的這個相關的法制作業應該也要更加的完善我們會來注意部長我覺得這邊有兩段工作第一段工作是我們要先知道我們提供的這個技術合作包括技術它可能是潛在有爭議的技術我們要第一點先知道這件事情第二個我再知道以後我不是說不能跟對方合作但要先確認對方的環境有沒有能夠好好使用這些技術用在我們期望的價值性工作的空間\n552188\t567403\t我覺得這個也要確認第三個實際上面他怎麼用我們可能也要事後的檢核其實這裡面有好幾段的工作我希望外交部我們在做這些數位治理的合作的時候都應該做到位我們真的很不希望變成是國際的醜聞說哪一個國家他用了什麼台灣的技術\n571967\t600134\t結果用在輿論前置或用在人權上面的前置我覺得這絕對對台灣是一個很不好的消息傳出去所以我這邊不談個案我今天不談個案但我覺得外交部應該要有一個系統性的檢視這個檢視我自己建議恐怕是不是能夠包括來請外交部請包括科技社會STS的專家包括數位人權的專家一起來協助外交部來檢視這些資通訊援外技術的把這些案例進行研究\n600794\t629899\t那你們有個研究的報告他們做一個做一些診斷或建議那這個報告我自己是覺得可能兩個月內其實可以出來這兩個月內讓大家知道說欸我們還在做這些數位的協助上面還有什麼地方可以增進的空間部長這應該沒有問題吧我做很具體的建議應該沒有問題那個時間齁時間那個不要抓得那麼死啦三個月好不好也不一定說三個月那我們這邊來做那個整體的那個檢視那如果說可以提早我們就提早這樣子好不好\n630199\t656781\t部長因為接下來也涉及到年終的時候大家就要討論下一個年度的預算的編列所以我覺得也讓大家能夠安心的話我覺得盡量應該要在下一個年度的預算出來之前給大家有一個明確說到底我們怎麼使用目前使用的狀況是什麼東西那請這些外部專家直接來進場來協助也不是只是我們自己內部公務員自己來講而已這部分部長我覺得請你大概在我至少覺得八月前啦好不好\n657562\t668207\t我們盡量來做啦那我請國經司的司長就這件事情我們來做成一個完整的報告好沒問題謝謝然後也可以送到外交國防讓其他委員一起來參考好謝謝\n","txt":"請部長請部長\n今天委員會排的主題是要來討論外交部的國際合作發展政策的計畫我記得大概在一個多月前我也質詢過部長關乎我們在討論到氣候外交的國際合作的戰略\n當初齊署部長也給我很正面的回應說願意來找行政院跟相關的部會來做這相關的研擬我在一個月後也想問一下部長這個事情有沒有進行進行到什麼程度有去了解但是你知道現在在transition的這個時候就做這些事情就會比較麻煩那尤其是有相關的這個部會的首長可能會有異動\n所以在這種狀況之下要去做這件事情可能會有困難但是這個事情一直在我們的 agenda 上面\n部長我其實一直想要提醒因為當然我們都知道其實在聯合國的機制下進行這些氣候方面的合作我們會有些先天上的困難但是其實現在在氣候跟淨零的議題上面其實恐怕也不是只有聯合國相關的管道就像部長我認為部長一定非常非常熟悉\n就像現在國際上面尤其民主國家對於中國在輸出他們的新能源或者是這個新能源車上面都有很多的顧慮可能是他們低價傾銷的顧慮或者是資安上面的顧慮其實這些工作都可能可以是我們跟其他民主國家在氣候跟競爭上面\n韓國瑜\n這部分也希望部長可以納入去做相關的思考跟規劃這是第一個事情第一件事情是這個我們今天看我看了部長提供的這個\n國際合作發展的政策的內容我其實很多都很樂見但我也看到裡面講到說我們要來協助很多夥伴國家提升數位治理能力提升數位治理能力當然是一件好事但我在這邊有幾件事情想要提醒部長部長我想先給你看一下\n並沒有：\n我簡單的來跟部長說一下這邊投書裡面大概有幾個很重要的重點他其實談到了其實如果我們要來對其他國家來做數位方案的協助的時候最大的重點是要如何跟該國社會建立緊密的合作默契跟合作的網絡這是第一點第二點是\n這個要從社區居民的實質需求來導入這個數位的方案如果反客為主的話雖然居民可能形式上接受但可能不一定會形成實質的效益第三個是他說到其實應該要設法結合民間資源包括國內外的NGO或NPO來以利永續發展那最後一個是說要了解當地的風土民情跟數位服務的供應鏈的生態\n這篇是郭澳煌的教授其實做的我覺得是很重要的建議部長你同不同意這幾點建議同意那我們其實像我們對烏克蘭或其他國家的數位重建的計畫我們有沒有納入這樣的設計跟考量部長就你所知有一些這一類的考量但是我們對烏克蘭的這個援助並沒有在那個數位發展上面做一個那個重點的這個發展\n我相信因為尤其烏克蘭他是一個緊急的援助他有他的時間的壓力但這邊我想要跟部長其實在更仔細在談幾個事情我們其實在這數位發展的合作上當然有他技術面的部分我其實相信以臺灣的技術團隊來說的話我們技術團隊跟其他國家相比其實是很有可能是領先的我相信這件事情可是在談數位建設跟數位治理部分可能也不是只有技術面\n很重要的部分是到底是真的能夠產生幫忙尤其是產生什麼樣的幫忙甚至提供的幫忙也是有責任的部長你同意嗎是當然部長所以我們現在在講幫友邦來建立或幫我們的夥伴來建立資通訊基礎建設\n其實當然你可以把它當作純粹的技術工具可是用得好的話你可以在造福可是用不好的時候可能會有負面的影響我這邊其實想跟部長說部長現在我們看我們有翻了一下現在臺灣援助友邦的自動訊計畫這些計畫我有點進去看有一些是幫忙建立自動訊基礎建設但我也看到一些是幫我們的朋友建立人臉辨識或智慧影像監視系統\n就部長知不知道其實這些包括人類辨識包括這個智慧影像監視系統用在哪裡部長知不知道\n有些知道,比如說索馬利蘭他們的那個紅毛辨識系統就是因為要方便他們的這個投票的這種作為因為他們那個身份證建制並不是很普遍所以像這個最主要的功用是在這邊像這一類的我們也很擔心說這個比如像那個人臉辨識系統如果說遭到誤用的話這個的確是會有一些那個不好的這些後果\n部長我要提醒其實像這些技術的導入其實是需要非常非常小心的這些技術即便要用在台灣假設在台灣使用我想非常多的人權組織跟NGO組織恐怕都會非常憂慮但這不是只是猜測說使用者他有善心還是壞心不是這樣子\n就以臺灣的狀況來說我們其實已經逐漸知道這些技術如果要使用重要的是要有很多法律授權的配套包括權力保障上面的配套有沒有這些法制上面的配套其實是這些技術工具尤其是可能是有潛在倫理爭議或者是價值爭議的技術工具的使用的前提\n所以這不是只是去猜測那個當權者他好心還是善心不是這樣子而已而是他有沒有相對應的準備充足這些相關的法律而且他是一個民主法制相關的工具因為我們都希望我們的這個援助計畫其實是以價值為導向的之前我們也聽過很多次我們很難想像我們今天號稱一個民主國家可是跟其他國家方面的合作是去\n提供他們更多監視人民或者是擴張威權或擴張某些權力集中的工具我們很難想像這件事情所以部長這邊我們有看到類似的結果這邊不講哪一個國家但我是覺得部長恐怕對於現在這些技術的使用外交部是不是要再審慎的檢視一次我現在不先說他一定使用在什麼地方我不下這個定論但這恐怕是一個爭議性的技術\n所瑪麗蘭說用這個紅魔辨識這其實沒有用到好這個生物辨識是可以用在很多不應該使用的地方的喔那他們有沒有相關的法規或他們的政策是什麼東西這部分我不知道我們的外管或我們的外交部掌握夠不夠清楚部長\n我想那個有關於那個索馬利蘭是因為當時他們的那個選舉是我們希望能夠積極支持他們讓他們的那個民主能夠建構得更加成功那但是因為他們的人別的辨識是有問題的所以他們希望我們協助這個部分所以這個是協助他們的這個民主的發展那目前沒有看到任何的這種負面的這個狀況但是委員剛剛所說的的確是一個我們更加要小心一點的這個事情\n只要有提供這些協助的話那我想我們的這個相關的法制作業應該也要更加的完善我們會來注意部長我覺得這邊有兩段工作第一段工作是我們要先知道我們提供的這個技術合作包括技術它可能是潛在有爭議的技術我們要第一點先知道這件事情第二個我再知道以後我不是說不能跟對方合作但要先確認對方的環境有沒有能夠好好使用這些技術用在我們期望的價值性工作的空間\n我覺得這個也要確認第三個實際上面他怎麼用我們可能也要事後的檢核其實這裡面有好幾段的工作我希望外交部我們在做這些數位治理的合作的時候都應該做到位我們真的很不希望變成是國際的醜聞說哪一個國家他用了什麼台灣的技術\n結果用在輿論前置或用在人權上面的前置我覺得這絕對對台灣是一個很不好的消息傳出去所以我這邊不談個案我今天不談個案但我覺得外交部應該要有一個系統性的檢視這個檢視我自己建議恐怕是不是能夠包括來請外交部請包括科技社會STS的專家包括數位人權的專家一起來協助外交部來檢視這些資通訊援外技術的把這些案例進行研究\n那你們有個研究的報告他們做一個做一些診斷或建議那這個報告我自己是覺得可能兩個月內其實可以出來這兩個月內讓大家知道說欸我們還在做這些數位的協助上面還有什麼地方可以增進的空間部長這應該沒有問題吧我做很具體的建議應該沒有問題那個時間齁時間那個不要抓得那麼死啦三個月好不好也不一定說三個月那我們這邊來做那個整體的那個檢視那如果說可以提早我們就提早這樣子好不好\n部長因為接下來也涉及到年終的時候大家就要討論下一個年度的預算的編列所以我覺得也讓大家能夠安心的話我覺得盡量應該要在下一個年度的預算出來之前給大家有一個明確說到底我們怎麼使用目前使用的狀況是什麼東西那請這些外部專家直接來進場來協助也不是只是我們自己內部公務員自己來講而已這部分部長我覺得請你大概在我至少覺得八月前啦好不好\n我們盡量來做啦那我請國經司的司長就這件事情我們來做成一個完整的報告好沒問題謝謝然後也可以送到外交國防讓其他委員一起來參考好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.173 --> 00:01.434\n請部長請部長\n\n00:11.155 --> 00:24.229\n今天委員會排的主題是要來討論外交部的國際合作發展政策的計畫我記得大概在一個多月前我也質詢過部長關乎我們在討論到氣候外交的國際合作的戰略\n\n00:31.677 --> 00:56.546\n當初齊署部長也給我很正面的回應說願意來找行政院跟相關的部會來做這相關的研擬我在一個月後也想問一下部長這個事情有沒有進行進行到什麼程度有去了解但是你知道現在在transition的這個時候就做這些事情就會比較麻煩那尤其是有相關的這個部會的首長可能會有異動\n\n00:57.667 --> 01:03.499\n所以在這種狀況之下要去做這件事情可能會有困難但是這個事情一直在我們的agenda上面\n\n01:04.278 --> 01:27.698\n部長我其實一直想要提醒因為當然我們都知道其實在聯合國的機制下進行這些氣候方面的合作我們會有些先天上的困難但是其實現在在氣候跟淨零的議題上面其實恐怕也不是只有聯合國相關的管道就像部長我認為部長一定非常非常熟悉\n\n01:28.459 --> 01:49.845\n就像現在國際上面尤其民主國家對於中國在輸出他們的新能源或者是這個新能源車上面都有很多的顧慮可能是他們低價傾銷的顧慮或者是資安上面的顧慮其實這些工作都可能可以是我們跟其他民主國家在氣候跟競爭上面\n\n01:50.325 --> 01:50.345\n韓國瑜\n\n02:12.407 --> 02:17.011\n這部分也希望部長可以納入去做相關的思考跟規劃這是第一個事情第一件事情是這個我們今天看我看了部長提供的這個\n\n02:35.370 --> 02:52.357\n國際合作發展的政策的內容我其實很多都很樂見但我也看到裡面講到說我們要來協助很多夥伴國家提升數位治理能力提升數位治理能力當然是一件好事但我在這邊有幾件事情想要提醒部長部長我想先給你看一下\n\n02:53.697 --> 02:53.838\n並沒有：\n\n03:09.528 --> 03:27.554\n我簡單的來跟部長說一下這邊投書裡面大概有幾個很重要的重點他其實談到了其實如果我們要來對其他國家來做數位方案的協助的時候最大的重點是要如何跟該國社會建立緊密的合作默契跟合作的網絡這是第一點第二點是\n\n03:30.134 --> 03:53.920\n這個要從社區居民的實質需求來導入這個數位的方案如果反客為主的話雖然居民可能形式上接受但可能不一定會形成實質的效益第三個是他說到其實應該要設法結合民間資源包括國內外的NGO或NPO來以利永續發展那最後一個是說要了解當地的風土民情跟數位服務的供應鏈的生態\n\n03:55.420 --> 04:22.031\n這篇是郭澳煌的教授其實做的我覺得是很重要的建議部長你同不同意這幾點建議同意那我們其實像我們對烏克蘭或其他國家的數位重建的計畫我們有沒有納入這樣的設計跟考量部長就你所知有一些這一類的考量但是我們對烏克蘭的這個援助並沒有在那個數位發展上面做一個那個重點的這個發展\n\n04:22.791 --> 04:50.427\n我相信因為尤其烏克蘭他是一個緊急的援助他有他的時間的壓力但這邊我想要跟部長其實在更仔細在談幾個事情我們其實在這數位發展的合作上當然有他技術面的部分我其實相信以臺灣的技術團隊來說的話我們技術團隊跟其他國家相比其實是很有可能是領先的我相信這件事情可是在談數位建設跟數位治理部分可能也不是只有技術面\n\n04:51.488 --> 05:07.085\n很重要的部分是到底是真的能夠產生幫忙尤其是產生什麼樣的幫忙甚至提供的幫忙也是有責任的部長你同意嗎是當然部長所以我們現在在講幫友邦來建立或幫我們的夥伴來建立資通訊基礎建設\n\n05:09.227 --> 05:37.054\n其實當然你可以把它當作純粹的技術工具可是用得好的話你可以在造福可是用不好的時候可能會有負面的影響我這邊其實想跟部長說部長現在我們看我們有翻了一下現在臺灣援助友邦的自動訊計畫這些計畫我有點進去看有一些是幫忙建立自動訊基礎建設但我也看到一些是幫我們的朋友建立人臉辨識或智慧影像監視系統\n\n05:38.334 --> 05:46.229\n就部長知不知道其實這些包括人類辨識包括這個智慧影像監視系統用在哪裡部長知不知道\n\n05:47.631 --> 06:15.536\n有些知道,比如說索馬利蘭他們的那個紅毛辨識系統就是因為要方便他們的這個投票的這種作為因為他們那個身份證建制並不是很普遍所以像這個最主要的功用是在這邊像這一類的我們也很擔心說這個比如像那個人臉辨識系統如果說遭到誤用的話這個的確是會有一些那個不好的這些後果\n\n06:15.876 --> 06:35.957\n部長我要提醒其實像這些技術的導入其實是需要非常非常小心的這些技術即便要用在台灣假設在台灣使用我想非常多的人權組織跟NGO組織恐怕都會非常憂慮但這不是只是猜測說使用者他有善心還是壞心不是這樣子\n\n06:36.698 --> 06:59.658\n就以臺灣的狀況來說我們其實已經逐漸知道這些技術如果要使用重要的是要有很多法律授權的配套包括權力保障上面的配套有沒有這些法制上面的配套其實是這些技術工具尤其是可能是有潛在倫理爭議或者是價值爭議的技術工具的使用的前提\n\n07:01.086 --> 07:26.558\n所以這不是只是去猜測那個當權者他好心還是善心不是這樣子而已而是他有沒有相對應的準備充足這些相關的法律而且他是一個民主法制相關的工具因為我們都希望我們的這個援助計畫其實是以價值為導向的之前我們也聽過很多次我們很難想像我們今天號稱一個民主國家可是跟其他國家方面的合作是去\n\n07:27.498 --> 07:54.556\n提供他們更多監視人民或者是擴張威權或擴張某些權力集中的工具我們很難想像這件事情所以部長這邊我們有看到類似的結果這邊不講哪一個國家但我是覺得部長恐怕對於現在這些技術的使用外交部是不是要再審慎的檢視一次我現在不先說他一定使用在什麼地方我不下這個定論但這恐怕是一個爭議性的技術\n\n07:56.357 --> 08:13.086\n所瑪麗蘭說用這個紅魔辨識這其實沒有用到好這個生物辨識是可以用在很多不應該使用的地方的喔那他們有沒有相關的法規或他們的政策是什麼東西這部分我不知道我們的外管或我們的外交部掌握夠不夠清楚部長\n\n08:14.669 --> 08:42.804\n我想那個有關於那個索馬利蘭是因為當時他們的那個選舉是我們希望能夠積極支持他們讓他們的那個民主能夠建構得更加成功那但是因為他們的人別的辨識是有問題的所以他們希望我們協助這個部分所以這個是協助他們的這個民主的發展那目前沒有看到任何的這種負面的這個狀況但是委員剛剛所說的的確是一個我們更加要小心一點的這個事情\n\n08:43.784 --> 09:11.047\n只要有提供這些協助的話那我想我們的這個相關的法制作業應該也要更加的完善我們會來注意部長我覺得這邊有兩段工作第一段工作是我們要先知道我們提供的這個技術合作包括技術它可能是潛在有爭議的技術我們要第一點先知道這件事情第二個我再知道以後我不是說不能跟對方合作但要先確認對方的環境有沒有能夠好好使用這些技術用在我們期望的價值性工作的空間\n\n09:12.188 --> 09:27.403\n我覺得這個也要確認第三個實際上面他怎麼用我們可能也要事後的檢核其實這裡面有好幾段的工作我希望外交部我們在做這些數位治理的合作的時候都應該做到位我們真的很不希望變成是國際的醜聞說哪一個國家他用了什麼台灣的技術\n\n09:31.967 --> 10:00.134\n結果用在輿論前置或用在人權上面的前置我覺得這絕對對台灣是一個很不好的消息傳出去所以我這邊不談個案我今天不談個案但我覺得外交部應該要有一個系統性的檢視這個檢視我自己建議恐怕是不是能夠包括來請外交部請包括科技社會STS的專家包括數位人權的專家一起來協助外交部來檢視這些資通訊援外技術的把這些案例進行研究\n\n10:00.794 --> 10:29.899\n那你們有個研究的報告他們做一個做一些診斷或建議那這個報告我自己是覺得可能兩個月內其實可以出來這兩個月內讓大家知道說欸我們還在做這些數位的協助上面還有什麼地方可以增進的空間部長這應該沒有問題吧我做很具體的建議應該沒有問題那個時間齁時間那個不要抓得那麼死啦三個月好不好也不一定說三個月那我們這邊來做那個整體的那個檢視那如果說可以提早我們就提早這樣子好不好\n\n10:30.199 --> 10:56.781\n部長因為接下來也涉及到年終的時候大家就要討論下一個年度的預算的編列所以我覺得也讓大家能夠安心的話我覺得盡量應該要在下一個年度的預算出來之前給大家有一個明確說到底我們怎麼使用目前使用的狀況是什麼東西那請這些外部專家直接來進場來協助也不是只是我們自己內部公務員自己來講而已這部分部長我覺得請你大概在我至少覺得八月前啦好不好\n\n10:57.562 --> 11:08.207\n我們盡量來做啦那我請國經司的司長就這件事情我們來做成一個完整的報告好沒問題謝謝然後也可以送到外交國防讓其他委員一起來參考好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.173,"end":1.434,"text":"請部長請部長"},{"start":11.155,"end":24.229,"text":"今天委員會排的主題是要來討論外交部的國際合作發展政策的計畫我記得大概在一個多月前我也質詢過部長關乎我們在討論到氣候外交的國際合作的戰略"},{"start":31.677,"end":56.546,"text":"當初齊署部長也給我很正面的回應說願意來找行政院跟相關的部會來做這相關的研擬我在一個月後也想問一下部長這個事情有沒有進行進行到什麼程度有去了解但是你知道現在在transition的這個時候就做這些事情就會比較麻煩那尤其是有相關的這個部會的首長可能會有異動"},{"start":57.667,"end":63.499,"text":"所以在這種狀況之下要去做這件事情可能會有困難但是這個事情一直在我們的 agenda 上面"},{"start":64.278,"end":87.698,"text":"部長我其實一直想要提醒因為當然我們都知道其實在聯合國的機制下進行這些氣候方面的合作我們會有些先天上的困難但是其實現在在氣候跟淨零的議題上面其實恐怕也不是只有聯合國相關的管道就像部長我認為部長一定非常非常熟悉"},{"start":88.459,"end":109.845,"text":"就像現在國際上面尤其民主國家對於中國在輸出他們的新能源或者是這個新能源車上面都有很多的顧慮可能是他們低價傾銷的顧慮或者是資安上面的顧慮其實這些工作都可能可以是我們跟其他民主國家在氣候跟競爭上面"},{"start":110.325,"end":110.345,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":132.407,"end":137.011,"text":"這部分也希望部長可以納入去做相關的思考跟規劃這是第一個事情第一件事情是這個我們今天看我看了部長提供的這個"},{"start":155.37,"end":172.357,"text":"國際合作發展的政策的內容我其實很多都很樂見但我也看到裡面講到說我們要來協助很多夥伴國家提升數位治理能力提升數位治理能力當然是一件好事但我在這邊有幾件事情想要提醒部長部長我想先給你看一下"},{"start":173.697,"end":173.838,"text":"並沒有："},{"start":189.528,"end":207.554,"text":"我簡單的來跟部長說一下這邊投書裡面大概有幾個很重要的重點他其實談到了其實如果我們要來對其他國家來做數位方案的協助的時候最大的重點是要如何跟該國社會建立緊密的合作默契跟合作的網絡這是第一點第二點是"},{"start":210.134,"end":233.92,"text":"這個要從社區居民的實質需求來導入這個數位的方案如果反客為主的話雖然居民可能形式上接受但可能不一定會形成實質的效益第三個是他說到其實應該要設法結合民間資源包括國內外的NGO或NPO來以利永續發展那最後一個是說要了解當地的風土民情跟數位服務的供應鏈的生態"},{"start":235.42,"end":262.031,"text":"這篇是郭澳煌的教授其實做的我覺得是很重要的建議部長你同不同意這幾點建議同意那我們其實像我們對烏克蘭或其他國家的數位重建的計畫我們有沒有納入這樣的設計跟考量部長就你所知有一些這一類的考量但是我們對烏克蘭的這個援助並沒有在那個數位發展上面做一個那個重點的這個發展"},{"start":262.791,"end":290.427,"text":"我相信因為尤其烏克蘭他是一個緊急的援助他有他的時間的壓力但這邊我想要跟部長其實在更仔細在談幾個事情我們其實在這數位發展的合作上當然有他技術面的部分我其實相信以臺灣的技術團隊來說的話我們技術團隊跟其他國家相比其實是很有可能是領先的我相信這件事情可是在談數位建設跟數位治理部分可能也不是只有技術面"},{"start":291.488,"end":307.085,"text":"很重要的部分是到底是真的能夠產生幫忙尤其是產生什麼樣的幫忙甚至提供的幫忙也是有責任的部長你同意嗎是當然部長所以我們現在在講幫友邦來建立或幫我們的夥伴來建立資通訊基礎建設"},{"start":309.227,"end":337.054,"text":"其實當然你可以把它當作純粹的技術工具可是用得好的話你可以在造福可是用不好的時候可能會有負面的影響我這邊其實想跟部長說部長現在我們看我們有翻了一下現在臺灣援助友邦的自動訊計畫這些計畫我有點進去看有一些是幫忙建立自動訊基礎建設但我也看到一些是幫我們的朋友建立人臉辨識或智慧影像監視系統"},{"start":338.334,"end":346.229,"text":"就部長知不知道其實這些包括人類辨識包括這個智慧影像監視系統用在哪裡部長知不知道"},{"start":347.631,"end":375.536,"text":"有些知道,比如說索馬利蘭他們的那個紅毛辨識系統就是因為要方便他們的這個投票的這種作為因為他們那個身份證建制並不是很普遍所以像這個最主要的功用是在這邊像這一類的我們也很擔心說這個比如像那個人臉辨識系統如果說遭到誤用的話這個的確是會有一些那個不好的這些後果"},{"start":375.876,"end":395.957,"text":"部長我要提醒其實像這些技術的導入其實是需要非常非常小心的這些技術即便要用在台灣假設在台灣使用我想非常多的人權組織跟NGO組織恐怕都會非常憂慮但這不是只是猜測說使用者他有善心還是壞心不是這樣子"},{"start":396.698,"end":419.658,"text":"就以臺灣的狀況來說我們其實已經逐漸知道這些技術如果要使用重要的是要有很多法律授權的配套包括權力保障上面的配套有沒有這些法制上面的配套其實是這些技術工具尤其是可能是有潛在倫理爭議或者是價值爭議的技術工具的使用的前提"},{"start":421.086,"end":446.558,"text":"所以這不是只是去猜測那個當權者他好心還是善心不是這樣子而已而是他有沒有相對應的準備充足這些相關的法律而且他是一個民主法制相關的工具因為我們都希望我們的這個援助計畫其實是以價值為導向的之前我們也聽過很多次我們很難想像我們今天號稱一個民主國家可是跟其他國家方面的合作是去"},{"start":447.498,"end":474.556,"text":"提供他們更多監視人民或者是擴張威權或擴張某些權力集中的工具我們很難想像這件事情所以部長這邊我們有看到類似的結果這邊不講哪一個國家但我是覺得部長恐怕對於現在這些技術的使用外交部是不是要再審慎的檢視一次我現在不先說他一定使用在什麼地方我不下這個定論但這恐怕是一個爭議性的技術"},{"start":476.357,"end":493.086,"text":"所瑪麗蘭說用這個紅魔辨識這其實沒有用到好這個生物辨識是可以用在很多不應該使用的地方的喔那他們有沒有相關的法規或他們的政策是什麼東西這部分我不知道我們的外管或我們的外交部掌握夠不夠清楚部長"},{"start":494.669,"end":522.804,"text":"我想那個有關於那個索馬利蘭是因為當時他們的那個選舉是我們希望能夠積極支持他們讓他們的那個民主能夠建構得更加成功那但是因為他們的人別的辨識是有問題的所以他們希望我們協助這個部分所以這個是協助他們的這個民主的發展那目前沒有看到任何的這種負面的這個狀況但是委員剛剛所說的的確是一個我們更加要小心一點的這個事情"},{"start":523.784,"end":551.047,"text":"只要有提供這些協助的話那我想我們的這個相關的法制作業應該也要更加的完善我們會來注意部長我覺得這邊有兩段工作第一段工作是我們要先知道我們提供的這個技術合作包括技術它可能是潛在有爭議的技術我們要第一點先知道這件事情第二個我再知道以後我不是說不能跟對方合作但要先確認對方的環境有沒有能夠好好使用這些技術用在我們期望的價值性工作的空間"},{"start":552.188,"end":567.403,"text":"我覺得這個也要確認第三個實際上面他怎麼用我們可能也要事後的檢核其實這裡面有好幾段的工作我希望外交部我們在做這些數位治理的合作的時候都應該做到位我們真的很不希望變成是國際的醜聞說哪一個國家他用了什麼台灣的技術"},{"start":571.967,"end":600.134,"text":"結果用在輿論前置或用在人權上面的前置我覺得這絕對對台灣是一個很不好的消息傳出去所以我這邊不談個案我今天不談個案但我覺得外交部應該要有一個系統性的檢視這個檢視我自己建議恐怕是不是能夠包括來請外交部請包括科技社會STS的專家包括數位人權的專家一起來協助外交部來檢視這些資通訊援外技術的把這些案例進行研究"},{"start":600.794,"end":629.899,"text":"那你們有個研究的報告他們做一個做一些診斷或建議那這個報告我自己是覺得可能兩個月內其實可以出來這兩個月內讓大家知道說欸我們還在做這些數位的協助上面還有什麼地方可以增進的空間部長這應該沒有問題吧我做很具體的建議應該沒有問題那個時間齁時間那個不要抓得那麼死啦三個月好不好也不一定說三個月那我們這邊來做那個整體的那個檢視那如果說可以提早我們就提早這樣子好不好"},{"start":630.199,"end":656.781,"text":"部長因為接下來也涉及到年終的時候大家就要討論下一個年度的預算的編列所以我覺得也讓大家能夠安心的話我覺得盡量應該要在下一個年度的預算出來之前給大家有一個明確說到底我們怎麼使用目前使用的狀況是什麼東西那請這些外部專家直接來進場來協助也不是只是我們自己內部公務員自己來講而已這部分部長我覺得請你大概在我至少覺得八月前啦好不好"},{"start":657.562,"end":668.207,"text":"我們盡量來做啦那我請國經司的司長就這件事情我們來做成一個完整的報告好沒問題謝謝然後也可以送到外交國防讓其他委員一起來參考好謝謝"}]}}}}