{"id":151116,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151116","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8a1755e5400c0ed5a540b34c0013974a895f5f60d28b50f8ba9b0039caa7a60962698531d05bfc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:02:02 - 11:12:56","影片長度":"00:10:54","會議時間":"2024-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「我國國際合作發展具體成效暨未來目標」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-12"},"date":"2024-04-15","duration":654,"end_time":"2024-04-15T11:12:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-15T11:02:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":477,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時2分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。2020年我回到了公民社會以後，我們積極地推動反貪腐的運動，我成立了一個組織，叫做「台灣公益揭弊暨吹哨者保護協會」，我們在2023年1月的時候參與了一個非常大的國際反貪腐計畫，叫做OCCRP。我們從2023年1月的時候開始參與這個計畫，跟來自大概十幾個國家不管是NGO、還是調查記者協會、包括哥倫比亞大學新聞學院，共同推出了一個獨裁者金庫系列調查的報導，裡面最主要指出來的關鍵問題是，中美洲銀行（CABEI）本來應該要拿來資助、協助中美洲地區國家、人民的生活，但我們的調查系列報導卻顯示，它竟然成為獨裁者的金庫。因為這樣子的關係，我們非常重要民主同盟的盟友美國非常重要的智庫CSIS也提出了呼籲，要求不僅僅是美國政府，以及跟美國政府在民主同盟的其他國家，包括臺灣及韓國這兩個全部都是CABEI現在非常重要的會員國，出資的金額都非常地高。臺灣現在是CABEI第一大持股會員國，我的理解沒錯吧？我們認股的金額高達了美金7億，超過7億了吧？部長，我的理解沒有錯嘛？"],["吳部長釗燮：差不多。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛。因此，我們提出了一個非常重要的呼籲，我們在國際社會要交朋友，沒有問題，但臺灣納稅人的錢去資助中美洲銀行下面的援助計畫，是我們希望幫助中美洲各個國家貧困的人民、婦女的婦權、NGO進行有意義的活動，我相信臺灣的納稅人都會支持；但當調查報導出來的結果是，我們臺灣納稅人的錢到CABEI以後，CABEI拿來資助的是獨裁的政體。","我們現在的口號是民主同盟，我們要用民主、自由、人權跟國際社會接軌，對於這個概念我非常地同意，但我現在的問題是，當我們的錢拿去被中美洲銀行資助獨裁政權的話，我們在國際社會的credibility會遭受到非常嚴重的質疑，所以我們重要的盟友美國非常有名的智庫CSIS才會提出這麼誠懇的呼籲。關於這樣子的呼籲，外交部在我們資助CABEI的過程當中有沒有什麼具體的作為？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員，我們也注意到CABEI對於像尼加拉瓜等等獨裁政權或者薩爾瓦多等等有過多的放貸措施，我們也察覺到這個問題的重點，所以結合其他的民主國家，希望在這個上面能夠做一個非常重大的改革，目前應該可以有比較正面的結果。"],["黃委員國昌：具體的作為是什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：具體的作為就是在放貸的過程當中有更多檢視的措施。"],["黃委員國昌：去年我回到公民社會以後，我們協會在去年公布了華文版的調查報告及英文版的調查報告，並且與國際上面合作的組織同步發行。同步發行了以後，也引發了立法院相關委員的關注，包括前時代力量立委陳椒華、前民眾黨立委邱臣遠都提出這樣子的呼籲，要求經費應該要公開、透明、國民有知的權利。當提出這樣的呼籲的時候，部長，您在回復邱臣遠委員的時候說：非常贊成，這個要求非常合理，我們會在CABEI當中發揮我們的影響力。部長，您還記得嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：是的，而且我們也依照這個方向來走。"],["黃委員國昌：好！是不是有依照這個方向來走、具體落實的情況是怎麼樣，當然要接受檢驗。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：接受檢驗的狀況是，外交部的回復是合作計畫項目、金額都公開於官網，研議設立我國基金專區。我們看實際的狀況，我在週末準備今天的質詢的時候上去CABEI的官網，還是沒有看到實質計畫的內容，這是怎麼回事？"],["吳部長釗燮：我請同仁說明一下。"],["黃委員國昌：是，請。"],["孫司長儉元：委員好。我們之前入股的時候所提供的基金基本上都是經過董事會做一個公決，然後提供給相關的政府……"],["黃委員國昌：這不是我的問題！"],["孫司長儉元：在董事會裡面我們都有做相關的計畫……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我們現在講的是資訊的公開、透明啊！"],["孫司長儉元：對，另外……"],["黃委員國昌：現在官網上面沒有，我的問題是為什麼沒有？發生什麼事？為什麼你們回復給立法院的答案，跟實際上面官網的內容出現不一致的狀況？"],["孫司長儉元：就這個部分，我們去年跟CABEI成立了一個基金，這個基金目前我們有承諾，還沒有正式執行，我們還在整個審核當中，所以這就是為什麼還沒有實際的計畫可以披露在官網上。"],["黃委員國昌：過去的計畫呢？我們到目前為止累積了多少給CABEI援助的金額？是不是超過2億美元？"],["孫司長儉元：這個部分是因為當初我們入股所繳的股權基金由CABEI統籌運用，相關的資訊是公布在CABEI的網站上面。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有！不是入股基金，是我們援助的金額，不要混淆啦！入股基金是入股基金，我知道，就是剛剛講的7億美元、二百多億臺幣，現在我在講的是除了入股金以外我們另外援助的金額，我把它統計出來了，超過2億美金。你們已經答應了國會、答應了國人要公開、透明，我在這次質詢之前的週末到CABEI的官網還是沒看到，所以我才請教部長到底是怎麼回事，到底是怎麼回事？"],["吳部長釗燮：跟委員說明，這個涉及兩個部分，一個部分是CABEI本身的放貸，另外一個是我們希望能夠有更加透明化的作為，就是提供一個專區──臺灣中美洲銀行夥伴關係信託基金……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候會做出來？"],["吳部長釗燮：如果有案子的話，當然就上網來公布。"],["黃委員國昌：過去援助的金額、做了什麼事情，可以不公開嗎？這是我的問題。"],["吳部長釗燮：過去援助的金額或者是放貸的金額……"],["黃委員國昌：超過2億美金喔！"],["吳部長釗燮：這個部分由於是CABEI本身的放貸……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了……"],["吳部長釗燮：現在就是我們臺灣本身透過信託基金……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，請您看下一頁，南韓跟CABEI所設置的信託基金可以有一個平臺完整地登載金流及標案的資訊，而我們出資的金額比南韓高，我們捐的錢比南韓多，甚至CABEI在臺灣資本市場所募集的資金超過30億美元，連CABEI都稱讚臺灣，我們為什麼在101設置CABEI在臺北的辦事處？因為臺灣的資本市場是我們CABEI募資最重要的中心，我們對CABEI貢獻這麼多，結果我們只是很卑微的要求，我們給CABEI的錢用到援助哪裡去的這件事情為什麼不能讓國人知道？"],["吳部長釗燮：所以剛剛跟委員講，我們另外成立一個信託基金，這個信託基金就……"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們進一步看，臺灣愛心捐款給宏都拉斯，去幫助宏都拉斯需要幫助的人，臺灣人民都同意，結果臺灣捐贈給宏國新臺幣800萬，被宏都拉斯的前第一夫人拿去買珠寶，這樣對嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個在當地的法院裡面已經證明這不是我們臺灣出的錢。"],["黃委員國昌：不是我們臺灣出的錢？確定不是我們臺灣出的錢？"],["吳部長釗燮：不是我們臺灣出的，如果是我們臺灣出的錢的話，我們早就被媒體爆出來了。"],["黃委員國昌：錢確定不是我們臺灣出的？"],["吳部長釗燮：就不是我們出的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，下一個。宏都拉斯之前對我們獅子大開口，拒絕金錢外交，這我百分之百贊成，就是為了錢嘛！宏都拉斯想跟中國建交，吳部長講得很好，我們拒絕增加金援，結果我看到媒體報導說，該國要求臺灣將每年5,000萬美元援助加倍，他的意思是說本來有5,000萬美元，但我找了半天的預算書，我找不到。"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有到那麼多。"],["主席：好，今天時間的關係，部長，你要回答？"],["吳部長釗燮：就是以前沒有那麼多才會說……"],["黃委員國昌：以前是多少？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於雙方合作計畫的部分，有很多不同的合作的計畫，所以很難有一個數字來跟委員說。"],["黃委員國昌：怎麼會很難說一個數字？不同的計畫把數字加一加就好了，這個會很難嗎？"],["主席：好，因為時間的關係，大概黃委員詢問的部分可能也是國人很想要知道的，就這個部分，我們希望提供比較具體的一些相關的書面資料給本委員會、給黃委員，好不好？因為今天……"],["黃委員國昌：主席，非常感謝你的裁示，可不可以押個時間？因為你沒有押時間。"],["主席：好，你說個時間。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，我們兩個禮拜應該沒有問題吧？因為這以前預算都編過嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：好，兩個禮拜。"],["黃委員國昌：可以喔，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們休息5分鐘。","休息（11時13分）","繼續開會（11時21分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。接下來請王鴻薇委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-12","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","羅美玲","王定宇","陳冠廷","洪申翰","林憶君","賴士葆","黃國昌","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐巧芯","陳永康","黃仁"],"page_start":73,"meetingDate":["2024-04-15"],"gazette_id":"1132701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「我國國際合作發展具體成效暨未來目標」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132701_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"151116","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151116","tool":"pyannote","id":"151116-pyannote"},"job_id":"mAjA5WZmO192zP0v","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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00:00:30,380\n黃委員好部長好2020年我回到了公民社會以後那我們積極的推動反貪腐的運動我成立了一個組織叫做台灣公益階幣及階段保護的協會我們在2023年的1月的時候參與了一個非常大的國際反貪腐的計畫叫做OCCRP我們從2013年1月的時候開始參與這個計畫跟來自大概十幾個國家不管是NGO\n\n3\n00:00:37,345 --> 00:01:03,694\n還是調查記者的協會包括哥倫比亞大學新聞學院我們共同推出了一個獨裁者的金庫系列調查的報導它裡面事實上最主要指出來的關鍵問題是說卡貝中美洲銀行本來應該是要拿來資助協助我們中美洲那邊地區國家人民的生活但\n\n4\n00:01:04,654 --> 00:01:32,960\n我們的調查系列報導卻顯示他竟然成為獨裁者的金庫他竟然成為獨裁者的金庫好那因為這樣子的關係啊我們非常重要民主同盟的盟友美國非常重要的智庫CSIS他也提出了呼籲要求要求不僅僅是美國政府以及跟美國政府在民主同盟上面的其他的國家\n\n5\n00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:55,016\n包括了台灣包括了韓國兩個全部都是卡貝現在非常重要的會員國出資的金額都非常的高台灣現在是卡貝的第一大持股的會員國嘛我的理解沒錯嘛我們認股的金額高達了美金7億超過7億了吧部長我的理解沒有錯嘛\n\n6\n00:02:04,927 --> 00:02:11,299\n因此我們提出一個非常重要的呼籲我們在國際社會要交朋友沒有問題\n\n7\n00:02:12,776 --> 00:02:38,644\n但台灣納稅人的錢我們去資助中美洲銀行下面的援助計畫是我們希望幫助中美洲那邊各個國家貧困的人民婦女的父權NGO進行有意義的活動我相信台灣的納稅人大家都會支持但當調查報導出來的結果是\n\n8\n00:02:39,983 --> 00:02:54,557\n我們台灣納稅的錢到卡貝以後卡貝拿來資助的是獨裁的政體我們現在的口號是民主同盟我們要用民主自由人權跟國際社會接軌\n\n9\n00:02:56,999 --> 00:03:20,916\n這個概念我非常的同意但我現在的問題是當我們的錢拿去被中美洲銀行去資助獨裁政權的話我們在國際社會的Credibility會遭受到非常嚴重的質疑所以我們重要的盟友美國CSIS非常有名的智庫才會提出這麼誠懇的呼籲\n\n10\n00:03:22,912 --> 00:03:30,952\n那關於這樣子的呼籲外交部在我們資助卡費的過程當中有沒有什麼具體的作為\n\n11\n00:03:32,513 --> 00:03:56,580\n非常謝謝委員,我們也注意到卡貝對於像尼加拉瓜等等的這些獨裁政權或者是薩爾瓦多等等的有過多的這些放貸的這些措施那我們也察覺到這個問題的重點所以在結合其他的這些民主國家希望在這個上面能夠做一個非常重大的改革那目前應該是可以有一個比較正面的結果具體的作為是什麼?\n\n12\n00:03:57,368 --> 00:04:19,623\n具體的作為就是說在那個放貸的這個過程當中有更多的這些檢視的措施在我們協會喔去年我回到公民社會以後我們去年公布了調查報告我們的華文版的調查報告跟英文版的調查報告我們是跟我們國際上面合作的組織同步發行的\n\n13\n00:04:20,524 --> 00:04:42,467\n同步發行了以後也引發了我們立法院這邊相關委員的關注包括前時代力量立委陳焦華前民眾黨立委邱承遠都提出這樣子的呼籲說我們經費應該要公開透明國民有知的權利當提出這樣子呼籲的時候部長\n\n14\n00:04:43,368 --> 00:04:52,988\n您在回覆邱承文委員的時候說非常贊成這個要求非常合理我們會在卡隊當中發揮我們的影響力部長您還記得嗎\n\n15\n00:04:54,060 --> 00:05:13,679\n是的,而且我們也依照這個方向來走好,是不是有依照這個方向來走具體落實的情況是怎麼樣當然要接受檢驗嘛接受檢驗的狀況是說外交部的回覆是合作計畫項目金額都公開於官網研議設立我國基金專區來,我們看實際的狀況\n\n16\n00:05:15,441 --> 00:05:15,681\n市委員好\n\n17\n00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:57,819\n那就我們之前就是說入股的時候所提供的基金基本上都是經過董事會來做一個公決然後提供給相關的政府這不是我的問題對在董事會裡面我們都有做相關的一個沒有我們現在在講的是資訊的公開透明啊現在官網上面沒有我的問題是為什麼沒有發生什麼事為什麼你們回覆給立法院的答案跟實際上面官網的內容出現不一致的狀況\n\n18\n00:05:58,559 --> 00:05:58,900\n過去的計畫呢?\n\n19\n00:06:13,738 --> 00:06:42,073\n我們到目前為止累積了多少給卡貝援助的金額是不是超過2億美元這個部分是因為當初我們入股所繳的股權基金這個部分是卡貝來統籌運用相關的資訊是公布在卡貝的這個網站上面沒有沒有沒有不是入股基金我們援助的金額不要混淆啦入股金是入股金這我知道嘛就剛講的7億美元嘛200多億台幣嘛現在我在講的是除了入股金以外\n\n20\n00:06:42,893 --> 00:07:03,576\n我們另外援助的金額我把它統計出來了超過兩億美金你們已經答應了國會答應了國人要公開透明我到這一次質詢來之前的週末到卡貝的官網還是沒看到所以我才請教部長啦到底是怎麼回事到底是怎麼回事\n\n21\n00:07:05,596 --> 00:07:22,645\n跟委員說明這個有涉及到兩個部分一個部分是卡貝本身的這個方帶那另外一個是我們希望能夠更加透明化的作為就是說提供一個專區就是臺灣中美洲雲南黃岸的信託基金那如果有案子的話當然就上網來公佈\n\n22\n00:07:24,046 --> 00:07:39,231\n過去原住的金額做了什麼事情可以不公開嗎這是我的問題過去的這個原住的這個金額或者是放貸超過兩億美金喔那這個部分是由於是卡貝本身的這些放貸我這樣說好了啦部長請您看下一頁請您看下一頁南韓跟卡貝\n\n23\n00:07:47,116 --> 00:07:54,268\n所設置的信託基金人家可以有一個平台完整的登載金流以及標案的資訊\n\n24\n00:07:57,282 --> 00:08:22,216\n我們出資的金額比南韓高我們捐的錢比南韓多甚至卡貝在台灣資本市場所募集的資金超過30億美元連卡貝稱讚台灣我們為什麼在101設置卡貝在台北的辦事處因為台灣的資本市場是我們卡貝募資最重要的中心\n\n25\n00:08:23,393 --> 00:08:52,289\n我們對卡貝貢獻這麼多結果我們只是很卑微的要求我們給卡貝的錢用到原住哪裡去了這件事情為什麼不能讓國人知道所以剛剛跟委員講我們另外成立一個信託基金那這個信託基金就好我們進一步看台灣愛心捐款給宏都拉斯去幫助宏都拉斯需要幫助的人台灣人民都同意\n\n26\n00:08:53,506 --> 00:09:03,540\n結果台灣捐贈給紅國新台幣800萬拿去被紅國洪都拉斯的前第一夫人拿去買珠寶這樣對嗎\n\n27\n00:09:06,121 --> 00:09:28,171\n阿這個在當地的這個法院裡面已經證明說這個不是我們台灣出的錢了不是我們台灣出的錢確定不是我們台灣出的錢不是我們台灣出的錢如果是我們台灣出的錢的話我們早就是被那個媒體爆出來了錢確定不是我們台灣出的阿就不是我們出的阿好下一個\n\n28\n00:09:29,685 --> 00:09:58,180\n紅杜拉斯之前對我們獅子大開口拒絕金錢外交這我百分之百贊成就是為了錢嘛紅杜拉斯想跟中國建交嘛吳部長講得很好我們拒絕增加金援結果我看到媒體報導說該國要求台灣將每年五千萬美元援助加倍他的意思是說本來有五千萬美元但我找了半天的預算書我找不到欸\n\n29\n00:10:00,950 --> 00:10:08,255\n今天時間的關係部長你要回答以前是多少有關於雙方合作計畫的部分有很多不同的合作計畫所以很難說有一個數字來跟委員說不同的計畫把數字加一加就好了這個會很難嗎\n\n30\n00:10:25,127 --> 00:10:47,094\n時間的關係因為黃委員大概他詢問的這個部分可能也是國人很想要知道的就這個部分我們希望提供比較具體的一些相關的書面資料給本委員會給黃委員好不好因為今天主席非常感謝你的才事可不可以壓一個時間因為你沒有壓時間部長我們兩個禮拜應該沒有問題吧因為這以前預算都編過嘛兩個禮拜可以齁好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n110\t251\t有請部長\n8983\t30380\t黃委員好部長好2020年我回到了公民社會以後那我們積極的推動反貪腐的運動我成立了一個組織叫做台灣公益階幣及階段保護的協會我們在2023年的1月的時候參與了一個非常大的國際反貪腐的計畫叫做OCCRP我們從2013年1月的時候開始參與這個計畫跟來自大概十幾個國家不管是NGO\n37345\t63694\t還是調查記者的協會包括哥倫比亞大學新聞學院我們共同推出了一個獨裁者的金庫系列調查的報導它裡面事實上最主要指出來的關鍵問題是說卡貝中美洲銀行本來應該是要拿來資助協助我們中美洲那邊地區國家人民的生活但\n64654\t92960\t我們的調查系列報導卻顯示他竟然成為獨裁者的金庫他竟然成為獨裁者的金庫好那因為這樣子的關係啊我們非常重要民主同盟的盟友美國非常重要的智庫CSIS他也提出了呼籲要求要求不僅僅是美國政府以及跟美國政府在民主同盟上面的其他的國家\n93880\t115016\t包括了台灣包括了韓國兩個全部都是卡貝現在非常重要的會員國出資的金額都非常的高台灣現在是卡貝的第一大持股的會員國嘛我的理解沒錯嘛我們認股的金額高達了美金7億超過7億了吧部長我的理解沒有錯嘛\n124927\t131299\t因此我們提出一個非常重要的呼籲我們在國際社會要交朋友沒有問題\n132776\t158644\t但台灣納稅人的錢我們去資助中美洲銀行下面的援助計畫是我們希望幫助中美洲那邊各個國家貧困的人民婦女的父權NGO進行有意義的活動我相信台灣的納稅人大家都會支持但當調查報導出來的結果是\n159983\t174557\t我們台灣納稅的錢到卡貝以後卡貝拿來資助的是獨裁的政體我們現在的口號是民主同盟我們要用民主自由人權跟國際社會接軌\n176999\t200916\t這個概念我非常的同意但我現在的問題是當我們的錢拿去被中美洲銀行去資助獨裁政權的話我們在國際社會的Credibility會遭受到非常嚴重的質疑所以我們重要的盟友美國CSIS非常有名的智庫才會提出這麼誠懇的呼籲\n202912\t210952\t那關於這樣子的呼籲外交部在我們資助卡費的過程當中有沒有什麼具體的作為\n212513\t236580\t非常謝謝委員,我們也注意到卡貝對於像尼加拉瓜等等的這些獨裁政權或者是薩爾瓦多等等的有過多的這些放貸的這些措施那我們也察覺到這個問題的重點所以在結合其他的這些民主國家希望在這個上面能夠做一個非常重大的改革那目前應該是可以有一個比較正面的結果具體的作為是什麼?\n237368\t259623\t具體的作為就是說在那個放貸的這個過程當中有更多的這些檢視的措施在我們協會喔去年我回到公民社會以後我們去年公布了調查報告我們的華文版的調查報告跟英文版的調查報告我們是跟我們國際上面合作的組織同步發行的\n260524\t282467\t同步發行了以後也引發了我們立法院這邊相關委員的關注包括前時代力量立委陳焦華前民眾黨立委邱承遠都提出這樣子的呼籲說我們經費應該要公開透明國民有知的權利當提出這樣子呼籲的時候部長\n283368\t292988\t您在回覆邱承文委員的時候說非常贊成這個要求非常合理我們會在卡隊當中發揮我們的影響力部長您還記得嗎\n294060\t313679\t是的,而且我們也依照這個方向來走好,是不是有依照這個方向來走具體落實的情況是怎麼樣當然要接受檢驗嘛接受檢驗的狀況是說外交部的回覆是合作計畫項目金額都公開於官網研議設立我國基金專區來,我們看實際的狀況\n315441\t315681\t市委員好\n331960\t357819\t那就我們之前就是說入股的時候所提供的基金基本上都是經過董事會來做一個公決然後提供給相關的政府這不是我的問題對在董事會裡面我們都有做相關的一個沒有我們現在在講的是資訊的公開透明啊現在官網上面沒有我的問題是為什麼沒有發生什麼事為什麼你們回覆給立法院的答案跟實際上面官網的內容出現不一致的狀況\n358559\t358900\t過去的計畫呢?\n373738\t402073\t我們到目前為止累積了多少給卡貝援助的金額是不是超過2億美元這個部分是因為當初我們入股所繳的股權基金這個部分是卡貝來統籌運用相關的資訊是公布在卡貝的這個網站上面沒有沒有沒有不是入股基金我們援助的金額不要混淆啦入股金是入股金這我知道嘛就剛講的7億美元嘛200多億台幣嘛現在我在講的是除了入股金以外\n402893\t423576\t我們另外援助的金額我把它統計出來了超過兩億美金你們已經答應了國會答應了國人要公開透明我到這一次質詢來之前的週末到卡貝的官網還是沒看到所以我才請教部長啦到底是怎麼回事到底是怎麼回事\n425596\t442645\t跟委員說明這個有涉及到兩個部分一個部分是卡貝本身的這個方帶那另外一個是我們希望能夠更加透明化的作為就是說提供一個專區就是臺灣中美洲雲南黃岸的信託基金那如果有案子的話當然就上網來公佈\n444046\t459231\t過去原住的金額做了什麼事情可以不公開嗎這是我的問題過去的這個原住的這個金額或者是放貸超過兩億美金喔那這個部分是由於是卡貝本身的這些放貸我這樣說好了啦部長請您看下一頁請您看下一頁南韓跟卡貝\n467116\t474268\t所設置的信託基金人家可以有一個平台完整的登載金流以及標案的資訊\n477282\t502216\t我們出資的金額比南韓高我們捐的錢比南韓多甚至卡貝在台灣資本市場所募集的資金超過30億美元連卡貝稱讚台灣我們為什麼在101設置卡貝在台北的辦事處因為台灣的資本市場是我們卡貝募資最重要的中心\n503393\t532289\t我們對卡貝貢獻這麼多結果我們只是很卑微的要求我們給卡貝的錢用到原住哪裡去了這件事情為什麼不能讓國人知道所以剛剛跟委員講我們另外成立一個信託基金那這個信託基金就好我們進一步看台灣愛心捐款給宏都拉斯去幫助宏都拉斯需要幫助的人台灣人民都同意\n533506\t543540\t結果台灣捐贈給紅國新台幣800萬拿去被紅國洪都拉斯的前第一夫人拿去買珠寶這樣對嗎\n546121\t568171\t阿這個在當地的這個法院裡面已經證明說這個不是我們台灣出的錢了不是我們台灣出的錢確定不是我們台灣出的錢不是我們台灣出的錢如果是我們台灣出的錢的話我們早就是被那個媒體爆出來了錢確定不是我們台灣出的阿就不是我們出的阿好下一個\n569685\t598180\t紅杜拉斯之前對我們獅子大開口拒絕金錢外交這我百分之百贊成就是為了錢嘛紅杜拉斯想跟中國建交嘛吳部長講得很好我們拒絕增加金援結果我看到媒體報導說該國要求台灣將每年五千萬美元援助加倍他的意思是說本來有五千萬美元但我找了半天的預算書我找不到欸\n600950\t608255\t今天時間的關係部長你要回答以前是多少有關於雙方合作計畫的部分有很多不同的合作計畫所以很難說有一個數字來跟委員說不同的計畫把數字加一加就好了這個會很難嗎\n625127\t647094\t時間的關係因為黃委員大概他詢問的這個部分可能也是國人很想要知道的就這個部分我們希望提供比較具體的一些相關的書面資料給本委員會給黃委員好不好因為今天主席非常感謝你的才事可不可以壓一個時間因為你沒有壓時間部長我們兩個禮拜應該沒有問題吧因為這以前預算都編過嘛兩個禮拜可以齁好謝謝好謝謝\n","txt":"有請部長\n黃委員好部長好2020年我回到了公民社會以後那我們積極的推動反貪腐的運動我成立了一個組織叫做台灣公益階幣及階段保護的協會我們在2023年的1月的時候參與了一個非常大的國際反貪腐的計畫叫做OCCRP我們從2013年1月的時候開始參與這個計畫跟來自大概十幾個國家不管是NGO\n還是調查記者的協會包括哥倫比亞大學新聞學院我們共同推出了一個獨裁者的金庫系列調查的報導它裡面事實上最主要指出來的關鍵問題是說卡貝中美洲銀行本來應該是要拿來資助協助我們中美洲那邊地區國家人民的生活但\n我們的調查系列報導卻顯示他竟然成為獨裁者的金庫他竟然成為獨裁者的金庫好那因為這樣子的關係啊我們非常重要民主同盟的盟友美國非常重要的智庫CSIS他也提出了呼籲要求要求不僅僅是美國政府以及跟美國政府在民主同盟上面的其他的國家\n包括了台灣包括了韓國兩個全部都是卡貝現在非常重要的會員國出資的金額都非常的高台灣現在是卡貝的第一大持股的會員國嘛我的理解沒錯嘛我們認股的金額高達了美金7億超過7億了吧部長我的理解沒有錯嘛\n因此我們提出一個非常重要的呼籲我們在國際社會要交朋友沒有問題\n但台灣納稅人的錢我們去資助中美洲銀行下面的援助計畫是我們希望幫助中美洲那邊各個國家貧困的人民婦女的父權NGO進行有意義的活動我相信台灣的納稅人大家都會支持但當調查報導出來的結果是\n我們台灣納稅的錢到卡貝以後卡貝拿來資助的是獨裁的政體我們現在的口號是民主同盟我們要用民主自由人權跟國際社會接軌\n這個概念我非常的同意但我現在的問題是當我們的錢拿去被中美洲銀行去資助獨裁政權的話我們在國際社會的Credibility會遭受到非常嚴重的質疑所以我們重要的盟友美國CSIS非常有名的智庫才會提出這麼誠懇的呼籲\n那關於這樣子的呼籲外交部在我們資助卡費的過程當中有沒有什麼具體的作為\n非常謝謝委員,我們也注意到卡貝對於像尼加拉瓜等等的這些獨裁政權或者是薩爾瓦多等等的有過多的這些放貸的這些措施那我們也察覺到這個問題的重點所以在結合其他的這些民主國家希望在這個上面能夠做一個非常重大的改革那目前應該是可以有一個比較正面的結果具體的作為是什麼?\n具體的作為就是說在那個放貸的這個過程當中有更多的這些檢視的措施在我們協會喔去年我回到公民社會以後我們去年公布了調查報告我們的華文版的調查報告跟英文版的調查報告我們是跟我們國際上面合作的組織同步發行的\n同步發行了以後也引發了我們立法院這邊相關委員的關注包括前時代力量立委陳焦華前民眾黨立委邱承遠都提出這樣子的呼籲說我們經費應該要公開透明國民有知的權利當提出這樣子呼籲的時候部長\n您在回覆邱承文委員的時候說非常贊成這個要求非常合理我們會在卡隊當中發揮我們的影響力部長您還記得嗎\n是的,而且我們也依照這個方向來走好,是不是有依照這個方向來走具體落實的情況是怎麼樣當然要接受檢驗嘛接受檢驗的狀況是說外交部的回覆是合作計畫項目金額都公開於官網研議設立我國基金專區來,我們看實際的狀況\n市委員好\n那就我們之前就是說入股的時候所提供的基金基本上都是經過董事會來做一個公決然後提供給相關的政府這不是我的問題對在董事會裡面我們都有做相關的一個沒有我們現在在講的是資訊的公開透明啊現在官網上面沒有我的問題是為什麼沒有發生什麼事為什麼你們回覆給立法院的答案跟實際上面官網的內容出現不一致的狀況\n過去的計畫呢?\n我們到目前為止累積了多少給卡貝援助的金額是不是超過2億美元這個部分是因為當初我們入股所繳的股權基金這個部分是卡貝來統籌運用相關的資訊是公布在卡貝的這個網站上面沒有沒有沒有不是入股基金我們援助的金額不要混淆啦入股金是入股金這我知道嘛就剛講的7億美元嘛200多億台幣嘛現在我在講的是除了入股金以外\n我們另外援助的金額我把它統計出來了超過兩億美金你們已經答應了國會答應了國人要公開透明我到這一次質詢來之前的週末到卡貝的官網還是沒看到所以我才請教部長啦到底是怎麼回事到底是怎麼回事\n跟委員說明這個有涉及到兩個部分一個部分是卡貝本身的這個方帶那另外一個是我們希望能夠更加透明化的作為就是說提供一個專區就是臺灣中美洲雲南黃岸的信託基金那如果有案子的話當然就上網來公佈\n過去原住的金額做了什麼事情可以不公開嗎這是我的問題過去的這個原住的這個金額或者是放貸超過兩億美金喔那這個部分是由於是卡貝本身的這些放貸我這樣說好了啦部長請您看下一頁請您看下一頁南韓跟卡貝\n所設置的信託基金人家可以有一個平台完整的登載金流以及標案的資訊\n我們出資的金額比南韓高我們捐的錢比南韓多甚至卡貝在台灣資本市場所募集的資金超過30億美元連卡貝稱讚台灣我們為什麼在101設置卡貝在台北的辦事處因為台灣的資本市場是我們卡貝募資最重要的中心\n我們對卡貝貢獻這麼多結果我們只是很卑微的要求我們給卡貝的錢用到原住哪裡去了這件事情為什麼不能讓國人知道所以剛剛跟委員講我們另外成立一個信託基金那這個信託基金就好我們進一步看台灣愛心捐款給宏都拉斯去幫助宏都拉斯需要幫助的人台灣人民都同意\n結果台灣捐贈給紅國新台幣800萬拿去被紅國洪都拉斯的前第一夫人拿去買珠寶這樣對嗎\n阿這個在當地的這個法院裡面已經證明說這個不是我們台灣出的錢了不是我們台灣出的錢確定不是我們台灣出的錢不是我們台灣出的錢如果是我們台灣出的錢的話我們早就是被那個媒體爆出來了錢確定不是我們台灣出的阿就不是我們出的阿好下一個\n紅杜拉斯之前對我們獅子大開口拒絕金錢外交這我百分之百贊成就是為了錢嘛紅杜拉斯想跟中國建交嘛吳部長講得很好我們拒絕增加金援結果我看到媒體報導說該國要求台灣將每年五千萬美元援助加倍他的意思是說本來有五千萬美元但我找了半天的預算書我找不到欸\n今天時間的關係部長你要回答以前是多少有關於雙方合作計畫的部分有很多不同的合作計畫所以很難說有一個數字來跟委員說不同的計畫把數字加一加就好了這個會很難嗎\n時間的關係因為黃委員大概他詢問的這個部分可能也是國人很想要知道的就這個部分我們希望提供比較具體的一些相關的書面資料給本委員會給黃委員好不好因為今天主席非常感謝你的才事可不可以壓一個時間因為你沒有壓時間部長我們兩個禮拜應該沒有問題吧因為這以前預算都編過嘛兩個禮拜可以齁好謝謝好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.110 --> 00:00.251\n有請部長\n\n00:08.983 --> 00:30.380\n黃委員好部長好2020年我回到了公民社會以後那我們積極的推動反貪腐的運動我成立了一個組織叫做台灣公益階幣及階段保護的協會我們在2023年的1月的時候參與了一個非常大的國際反貪腐的計畫叫做OCCRP我們從2013年1月的時候開始參與這個計畫跟來自大概十幾個國家不管是NGO\n\n00:37.345 --> 01:03.694\n還是調查記者的協會包括哥倫比亞大學新聞學院我們共同推出了一個獨裁者的金庫系列調查的報導它裡面事實上最主要指出來的關鍵問題是說卡貝中美洲銀行本來應該是要拿來資助協助我們中美洲那邊地區國家人民的生活但\n\n01:04.654 --> 01:32.960\n我們的調查系列報導卻顯示他竟然成為獨裁者的金庫他竟然成為獨裁者的金庫好那因為這樣子的關係啊我們非常重要民主同盟的盟友美國非常重要的智庫CSIS他也提出了呼籲要求要求不僅僅是美國政府以及跟美國政府在民主同盟上面的其他的國家\n\n01:33.880 --> 01:55.016\n包括了台灣包括了韓國兩個全部都是卡貝現在非常重要的會員國出資的金額都非常的高台灣現在是卡貝的第一大持股的會員國嘛我的理解沒錯嘛我們認股的金額高達了美金7億超過7億了吧部長我的理解沒有錯嘛\n\n02:04.927 --> 02:11.299\n因此我們提出一個非常重要的呼籲我們在國際社會要交朋友沒有問題\n\n02:12.776 --> 02:38.644\n但台灣納稅人的錢我們去資助中美洲銀行下面的援助計畫是我們希望幫助中美洲那邊各個國家貧困的人民婦女的父權NGO進行有意義的活動我相信台灣的納稅人大家都會支持但當調查報導出來的結果是\n\n02:39.983 --> 02:54.557\n我們台灣納稅的錢到卡貝以後卡貝拿來資助的是獨裁的政體我們現在的口號是民主同盟我們要用民主自由人權跟國際社會接軌\n\n02:56.999 --> 03:20.916\n這個概念我非常的同意但我現在的問題是當我們的錢拿去被中美洲銀行去資助獨裁政權的話我們在國際社會的Credibility會遭受到非常嚴重的質疑所以我們重要的盟友美國CSIS非常有名的智庫才會提出這麼誠懇的呼籲\n\n03:22.912 --> 03:30.952\n那關於這樣子的呼籲外交部在我們資助卡費的過程當中有沒有什麼具體的作為\n\n03:32.513 --> 03:56.580\n非常謝謝委員,我們也注意到卡貝對於像尼加拉瓜等等的這些獨裁政權或者是薩爾瓦多等等的有過多的這些放貸的這些措施那我們也察覺到這個問題的重點所以在結合其他的這些民主國家希望在這個上面能夠做一個非常重大的改革那目前應該是可以有一個比較正面的結果具體的作為是什麼?\n\n03:57.368 --> 04:19.623\n具體的作為就是說在那個放貸的這個過程當中有更多的這些檢視的措施在我們協會喔去年我回到公民社會以後我們去年公布了調查報告我們的華文版的調查報告跟英文版的調查報告我們是跟我們國際上面合作的組織同步發行的\n\n04:20.524 --> 04:42.467\n同步發行了以後也引發了我們立法院這邊相關委員的關注包括前時代力量立委陳焦華前民眾黨立委邱承遠都提出這樣子的呼籲說我們經費應該要公開透明國民有知的權利當提出這樣子呼籲的時候部長\n\n04:43.368 --> 04:52.988\n您在回覆邱承文委員的時候說非常贊成這個要求非常合理我們會在卡隊當中發揮我們的影響力部長您還記得嗎\n\n04:54.060 --> 05:13.679\n是的,而且我們也依照這個方向來走好,是不是有依照這個方向來走具體落實的情況是怎麼樣當然要接受檢驗嘛接受檢驗的狀況是說外交部的回覆是合作計畫項目金額都公開於官網研議設立我國基金專區來,我們看實際的狀況\n\n05:15.441 --> 05:15.681\n市委員好\n\n05:31.960 --> 05:57.819\n那就我們之前就是說入股的時候所提供的基金基本上都是經過董事會來做一個公決然後提供給相關的政府這不是我的問題對在董事會裡面我們都有做相關的一個沒有我們現在在講的是資訊的公開透明啊現在官網上面沒有我的問題是為什麼沒有發生什麼事為什麼你們回覆給立法院的答案跟實際上面官網的內容出現不一致的狀況\n\n05:58.559 --> 05:58.900\n過去的計畫呢?\n\n06:13.738 --> 06:42.073\n我們到目前為止累積了多少給卡貝援助的金額是不是超過2億美元這個部分是因為當初我們入股所繳的股權基金這個部分是卡貝來統籌運用相關的資訊是公布在卡貝的這個網站上面沒有沒有沒有不是入股基金我們援助的金額不要混淆啦入股金是入股金這我知道嘛就剛講的7億美元嘛200多億台幣嘛現在我在講的是除了入股金以外\n\n06:42.893 --> 07:03.576\n我們另外援助的金額我把它統計出來了超過兩億美金你們已經答應了國會答應了國人要公開透明我到這一次質詢來之前的週末到卡貝的官網還是沒看到所以我才請教部長啦到底是怎麼回事到底是怎麼回事\n\n07:05.596 --> 07:22.645\n跟委員說明這個有涉及到兩個部分一個部分是卡貝本身的這個方帶那另外一個是我們希望能夠更加透明化的作為就是說提供一個專區就是臺灣中美洲雲南黃岸的信託基金那如果有案子的話當然就上網來公佈\n\n07:24.046 --> 07:39.231\n過去原住的金額做了什麼事情可以不公開嗎這是我的問題過去的這個原住的這個金額或者是放貸超過兩億美金喔那這個部分是由於是卡貝本身的這些放貸我這樣說好了啦部長請您看下一頁請您看下一頁南韓跟卡貝\n\n07:47.116 --> 07:54.268\n所設置的信託基金人家可以有一個平台完整的登載金流以及標案的資訊\n\n07:57.282 --> 08:22.216\n我們出資的金額比南韓高我們捐的錢比南韓多甚至卡貝在台灣資本市場所募集的資金超過30億美元連卡貝稱讚台灣我們為什麼在101設置卡貝在台北的辦事處因為台灣的資本市場是我們卡貝募資最重要的中心\n\n08:23.393 --> 08:52.289\n我們對卡貝貢獻這麼多結果我們只是很卑微的要求我們給卡貝的錢用到原住哪裡去了這件事情為什麼不能讓國人知道所以剛剛跟委員講我們另外成立一個信託基金那這個信託基金就好我們進一步看台灣愛心捐款給宏都拉斯去幫助宏都拉斯需要幫助的人台灣人民都同意\n\n08:53.506 --> 09:03.540\n結果台灣捐贈給紅國新台幣800萬拿去被紅國洪都拉斯的前第一夫人拿去買珠寶這樣對嗎\n\n09:06.121 --> 09:28.171\n阿這個在當地的這個法院裡面已經證明說這個不是我們台灣出的錢了不是我們台灣出的錢確定不是我們台灣出的錢不是我們台灣出的錢如果是我們台灣出的錢的話我們早就是被那個媒體爆出來了錢確定不是我們台灣出的阿就不是我們出的阿好下一個\n\n09:29.685 --> 09:58.180\n紅杜拉斯之前對我們獅子大開口拒絕金錢外交這我百分之百贊成就是為了錢嘛紅杜拉斯想跟中國建交嘛吳部長講得很好我們拒絕增加金援結果我看到媒體報導說該國要求台灣將每年五千萬美元援助加倍他的意思是說本來有五千萬美元但我找了半天的預算書我找不到欸\n\n10:00.950 --> 10:08.255\n今天時間的關係部長你要回答以前是多少有關於雙方合作計畫的部分有很多不同的合作計畫所以很難說有一個數字來跟委員說不同的計畫把數字加一加就好了這個會很難嗎\n\n10:25.127 --> 10:47.094\n時間的關係因為黃委員大概他詢問的這個部分可能也是國人很想要知道的就這個部分我們希望提供比較具體的一些相關的書面資料給本委員會給黃委員好不好因為今天主席非常感謝你的才事可不可以壓一個時間因為你沒有壓時間部長我們兩個禮拜應該沒有問題吧因為這以前預算都編過嘛兩個禮拜可以齁好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.11,"end":0.251,"text":"有請部長"},{"start":8.983,"end":30.38,"text":"黃委員好部長好2020年我回到了公民社會以後那我們積極的推動反貪腐的運動我成立了一個組織叫做台灣公益階幣及階段保護的協會我們在2023年的1月的時候參與了一個非常大的國際反貪腐的計畫叫做OCCRP我們從2013年1月的時候開始參與這個計畫跟來自大概十幾個國家不管是NGO"},{"start":37.345,"end":63.694,"text":"還是調查記者的協會包括哥倫比亞大學新聞學院我們共同推出了一個獨裁者的金庫系列調查的報導它裡面事實上最主要指出來的關鍵問題是說卡貝中美洲銀行本來應該是要拿來資助協助我們中美洲那邊地區國家人民的生活但"},{"start":64.654,"end":92.96,"text":"我們的調查系列報導卻顯示他竟然成為獨裁者的金庫他竟然成為獨裁者的金庫好那因為這樣子的關係啊我們非常重要民主同盟的盟友美國非常重要的智庫CSIS他也提出了呼籲要求要求不僅僅是美國政府以及跟美國政府在民主同盟上面的其他的國家"},{"start":93.88,"end":115.016,"text":"包括了台灣包括了韓國兩個全部都是卡貝現在非常重要的會員國出資的金額都非常的高台灣現在是卡貝的第一大持股的會員國嘛我的理解沒錯嘛我們認股的金額高達了美金7億超過7億了吧部長我的理解沒有錯嘛"},{"start":124.927,"end":131.299,"text":"因此我們提出一個非常重要的呼籲我們在國際社會要交朋友沒有問題"},{"start":132.776,"end":158.644,"text":"但台灣納稅人的錢我們去資助中美洲銀行下面的援助計畫是我們希望幫助中美洲那邊各個國家貧困的人民婦女的父權NGO進行有意義的活動我相信台灣的納稅人大家都會支持但當調查報導出來的結果是"},{"start":159.983,"end":174.557,"text":"我們台灣納稅的錢到卡貝以後卡貝拿來資助的是獨裁的政體我們現在的口號是民主同盟我們要用民主自由人權跟國際社會接軌"},{"start":176.999,"end":200.916,"text":"這個概念我非常的同意但我現在的問題是當我們的錢拿去被中美洲銀行去資助獨裁政權的話我們在國際社會的Credibility會遭受到非常嚴重的質疑所以我們重要的盟友美國CSIS非常有名的智庫才會提出這麼誠懇的呼籲"},{"start":202.912,"end":210.952,"text":"那關於這樣子的呼籲外交部在我們資助卡費的過程當中有沒有什麼具體的作為"},{"start":212.513,"end":236.58,"text":"非常謝謝委員,我們也注意到卡貝對於像尼加拉瓜等等的這些獨裁政權或者是薩爾瓦多等等的有過多的這些放貸的這些措施那我們也察覺到這個問題的重點所以在結合其他的這些民主國家希望在這個上面能夠做一個非常重大的改革那目前應該是可以有一個比較正面的結果具體的作為是什麼?"},{"start":237.368,"end":259.623,"text":"具體的作為就是說在那個放貸的這個過程當中有更多的這些檢視的措施在我們協會喔去年我回到公民社會以後我們去年公布了調查報告我們的華文版的調查報告跟英文版的調查報告我們是跟我們國際上面合作的組織同步發行的"},{"start":260.524,"end":282.467,"text":"同步發行了以後也引發了我們立法院這邊相關委員的關注包括前時代力量立委陳焦華前民眾黨立委邱承遠都提出這樣子的呼籲說我們經費應該要公開透明國民有知的權利當提出這樣子呼籲的時候部長"},{"start":283.368,"end":292.988,"text":"您在回覆邱承文委員的時候說非常贊成這個要求非常合理我們會在卡隊當中發揮我們的影響力部長您還記得嗎"},{"start":294.06,"end":313.679,"text":"是的,而且我們也依照這個方向來走好,是不是有依照這個方向來走具體落實的情況是怎麼樣當然要接受檢驗嘛接受檢驗的狀況是說外交部的回覆是合作計畫項目金額都公開於官網研議設立我國基金專區來,我們看實際的狀況"},{"start":315.441,"end":315.681,"text":"市委員好"},{"start":331.96,"end":357.819,"text":"那就我們之前就是說入股的時候所提供的基金基本上都是經過董事會來做一個公決然後提供給相關的政府這不是我的問題對在董事會裡面我們都有做相關的一個沒有我們現在在講的是資訊的公開透明啊現在官網上面沒有我的問題是為什麼沒有發生什麼事為什麼你們回覆給立法院的答案跟實際上面官網的內容出現不一致的狀況"},{"start":358.559,"end":358.9,"text":"過去的計畫呢?"},{"start":373.738,"end":402.073,"text":"我們到目前為止累積了多少給卡貝援助的金額是不是超過2億美元這個部分是因為當初我們入股所繳的股權基金這個部分是卡貝來統籌運用相關的資訊是公布在卡貝的這個網站上面沒有沒有沒有不是入股基金我們援助的金額不要混淆啦入股金是入股金這我知道嘛就剛講的7億美元嘛200多億台幣嘛現在我在講的是除了入股金以外"},{"start":402.893,"end":423.576,"text":"我們另外援助的金額我把它統計出來了超過兩億美金你們已經答應了國會答應了國人要公開透明我到這一次質詢來之前的週末到卡貝的官網還是沒看到所以我才請教部長啦到底是怎麼回事到底是怎麼回事"},{"start":425.596,"end":442.645,"text":"跟委員說明這個有涉及到兩個部分一個部分是卡貝本身的這個方帶那另外一個是我們希望能夠更加透明化的作為就是說提供一個專區就是臺灣中美洲雲南黃岸的信託基金那如果有案子的話當然就上網來公佈"},{"start":444.046,"end":459.231,"text":"過去原住的金額做了什麼事情可以不公開嗎這是我的問題過去的這個原住的這個金額或者是放貸超過兩億美金喔那這個部分是由於是卡貝本身的這些放貸我這樣說好了啦部長請您看下一頁請您看下一頁南韓跟卡貝"},{"start":467.116,"end":474.268,"text":"所設置的信託基金人家可以有一個平台完整的登載金流以及標案的資訊"},{"start":477.282,"end":502.216,"text":"我們出資的金額比南韓高我們捐的錢比南韓多甚至卡貝在台灣資本市場所募集的資金超過30億美元連卡貝稱讚台灣我們為什麼在101設置卡貝在台北的辦事處因為台灣的資本市場是我們卡貝募資最重要的中心"},{"start":503.393,"end":532.289,"text":"我們對卡貝貢獻這麼多結果我們只是很卑微的要求我們給卡貝的錢用到原住哪裡去了這件事情為什麼不能讓國人知道所以剛剛跟委員講我們另外成立一個信託基金那這個信託基金就好我們進一步看台灣愛心捐款給宏都拉斯去幫助宏都拉斯需要幫助的人台灣人民都同意"},{"start":533.506,"end":543.54,"text":"結果台灣捐贈給紅國新台幣800萬拿去被紅國洪都拉斯的前第一夫人拿去買珠寶這樣對嗎"},{"start":546.121,"end":568.171,"text":"阿這個在當地的這個法院裡面已經證明說這個不是我們台灣出的錢了不是我們台灣出的錢確定不是我們台灣出的錢不是我們台灣出的錢如果是我們台灣出的錢的話我們早就是被那個媒體爆出來了錢確定不是我們台灣出的阿就不是我們出的阿好下一個"},{"start":569.685,"end":598.18,"text":"紅杜拉斯之前對我們獅子大開口拒絕金錢外交這我百分之百贊成就是為了錢嘛紅杜拉斯想跟中國建交嘛吳部長講得很好我們拒絕增加金援結果我看到媒體報導說該國要求台灣將每年五千萬美元援助加倍他的意思是說本來有五千萬美元但我找了半天的預算書我找不到欸"},{"start":600.95,"end":608.255,"text":"今天時間的關係部長你要回答以前是多少有關於雙方合作計畫的部分有很多不同的合作計畫所以很難說有一個數字來跟委員說不同的計畫把數字加一加就好了這個會很難嗎"},{"start":625.127,"end":647.094,"text":"時間的關係因為黃委員大概他詢問的這個部分可能也是國人很想要知道的就這個部分我們希望提供比較具體的一些相關的書面資料給本委員會給黃委員好不好因為今天主席非常感謝你的才事可不可以壓一個時間因為你沒有壓時間部長我們兩個禮拜應該沒有問題吧因為這以前預算都編過嘛兩個禮拜可以齁好謝謝好謝謝"}]}}}}