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11:36:24","影片長度":"00:07:05","會議時間":"2024-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「我國國際合作發展具體成效暨未來目標」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-12"},"date":"2024-04-15","duration":425,"end_time":"2024-04-15T11:36:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-15T11:29:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":572,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時29分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：請田次長。"],["田次長中光：牛委員，您早。"],["牛委員煦庭：次長早安，今天我們要討論國際合作發展，對不對？是不是請次長先跟大家說一下我們國際合作的理念是哪8個字？"],["田次長中光：互助互惠，踏實外交。"],["牛委員煦庭：踏實外交，互助互惠，OK，非常好。那我們新南向政策的核心理念是什麼？"],["田次長中光：新南向有4個最重要的支柱，人才的交流、資源共享、經濟發展，然後區域的鏈接，大概是以這4個……"],["牛委員煦庭：這是你的政策目標嘛！但是核心理念是什麼？跟你剛剛那個很像啦！"],["田次長中光：就是把臺灣目前認為能夠協助一些國家的我們的優點，跟他們一起的合作。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，因為這個沒有寫在工作報告裡，所以我不為難你，新南向政策的核心理念叫做長期深耕、多元開展、雙向互惠，所以跟你國際合作理念的踏實外交、互惠互助的概念是完全流通的。今天就針對這個事情來做一下討論，因為我在你報告第3頁裡面有看到建構強化夥伴國的糧食安全體系，我就有一點小的疑問在這裡，因為除了有講說太平洋島國這些，你做農糧的糧食安全協助，這個本席願意理解，因為跟我們有邦交嘛！對不對？那新南向的國家，比如說印尼、泰國、菲律賓、越南，也有執行所謂糧食安全相關計畫，但就本席的理解，他們本身相對來講，在農糧上面就有一定的競爭優勢，這個我們有什麼好協助人家的嗎？"],["田次長中光：這幾個雖然也是國土非常的大，但是它的農業基本上還是比較初級的農業，你也曉得臺灣從農業發展為工業，然後現在是高科技，所以我們農業的人才跟農業的科技方面其實是蠻強的，那麼我們現在辦了什麼事情呢？我們把我們的農業……"],["牛委員煦庭：技術援外嘛！"],["田次長中光：技術援外，然後把它的農業人才帶來臺灣學習，我們有青農的合作，比如說印尼、菲律賓……"],["牛委員煦庭：OK，我們在技術援外投入多少資源？"],["田次長中光：你是說錢嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：針對新南向國家，對，你當然可以做個量化，你可能有補助案或怎麼樣，我們投入多少資源？"],["田次長中光：就是以錢的數字嗎？還是我們人力？"],["牛委員煦庭：對，用量化的，因為時間比較有限，如果沒有講，我們就沒有辦法做聚焦了。"],["田次長中光：錢……"],["牛委員煦庭：手上沒有是不是？沒有關係，我不為難你，做一下統計啦！"],["田次長中光：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：那麼回到我們的政策核心精神，也就是說雙向互惠，還有你國際合作的互惠互動的理念，相對來講，這些新南向國家回饋給我們的是哪些東西？"],["田次長中光：新南向國家現在給我們的，我舉個例子來說好了，我覺得像菲律賓、越南、印尼、泰國這些國家的勞工會到臺灣，他們來協助臺灣在這方面的建築，一共將近有80萬個外勞，這是第一點，移工對臺灣的建設，我相信是有非常大的幫助。第二個，事實上在國際上面，他們也某種程度的支持臺灣，他們也一再的宣稱，比如說菲律賓的總統一再宣稱臺海的安全跟穩定是非常非常重要，這個部分我覺得也非常……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那這兩件事我們就來深入討論。第一個，移工的部分，顯然在新南向政策之前，我們就有很多的移工嘛！對不對？所以這個東西你要講它是有這個成果，好像有一點不大搭調，因為你前面有講說互惠互助，我們要看到的是推動這個政策之後，因為這個政策加碼的東西。但是移工本來就有長期的合作，某些層面它也是一個相對運行成熟的產業鏈，所以這種說法我是覺得有一點點站不住腳。","第二個，當然次長你有講到我正要問的，比較深水區的部分，也就是說我們在技術援外的過程中也許政治有點困難，因為深水區啊！但是我們總要看到一些進展嘛！你剛剛舉個例子叫菲律賓杜特蒂個人的發言，但這畢竟只是一環，而且本席一向問外交政策，我不喜歡問宣示的東西嘛！我們都要踏實外交了，我們當然要問實質的東西，比如說我們花了這麼多的資源，雖然現在資料沒有到位，但是花了這麼多資源去協助新南向國家做農業的國際合作開發，可是看起來在政治上面，這些國家對我們並沒有比較友善，有比較友善嗎？次長覺得有比較友善嗎？"],["田次長中光：有，基本上是有。我跟委員報告一下，我們援外的東西不是說交換的……"],["牛委員煦庭：政策核心就是要互惠啊！"],["田次長中光：並不是完全可以交換。"],["牛委員煦庭：不完全，好。"],["田次長中光：我們是把我們的善，一個善的循環怎麼樣去協助周邊的國家能夠改善它的生活，改善它人民的生活水準，我覺得這個滿重要。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席問你一件事，現在這些受我們協助的印尼、泰國、菲律賓、越南，他們會不會支持我們加入CPTPP？"],["田次長中光：他們絕對不會反對，因為我們現在是已經符合加入CPTPP的高規格，那麼他們對我們加入CPTPP都是持正面的看法。"],["牛委員煦庭：正面的看法，他們如果受到中國大陸的壓力的時候，會不會躊躇、轉彎？"],["田次長中光：中國的壓力無所不在，我跟委員報告……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，無所不在嘛！"],["田次長中光：這一點我必須先說，我們是在這個壓力之下，怎麼樣跟它進行對臺灣有利的事情。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我們做個釐清，第一個，他們會不會協助我們加入CPTPP？第二個，最近我們吳部長，雖然他去接待外賓了，他有講泰國的免簽政策，他們當然是因為疫後經濟、促進觀光，有一個短期的開放，這免簽是一個好的事情，是一種實質的外交成果，有沒有因為這樣子的合作可以延長？"],["田次長中光：應該沒有問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有問題喔？確定？"],["田次長中光：泰國應該是持正面的看法。"],["牛委員煦庭：持正面的看法，好。","第三個，最近我們要去世界臺商大會，我們江副院長據說也是受到政治壓力，簽證就遇到了問題，你看這個國家是越南，越南也是我們國際合作協助的對象，可是這個協助好像沒有換到政治上的一些支持，本席是覺得有點可惜啦！所以我要求，因為今天時間到了，我要求部裡面做一下，我剛剛問我們一共在新南向這些國家裡面投入多少資源？我們提醒外交部秉持踏實外交、互惠互助、長期深耕、多元開展、雙向互惠，都提了互惠互助，我們不要投資了資源，但卻回報有限，那這樣子就表示我們外交政策可能需要一些檢討，好不好？所以請外交部提供一些資料，我們來做長期的追蹤，可以嗎？"],["田次長中光：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝次長，辛苦了。"],["主席：接下來請洪孟楷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-12","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","羅美玲","王定宇","陳冠廷","洪申翰","林憶君","賴士葆","黃國昌","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐巧芯","陳永康","黃仁"],"page_start":73,"meetingDate":["2024-04-15"],"gazette_id":"1132701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「我國國際合作發展具體成效暨未來目標」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132701_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"151118","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151118","tool":"pyannote","id":"151118-pyannote"},"job_id":"HMqwFP0mJjaQ9i5K","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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{\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 226.408, \"end\": 226.548, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 226.548, \"end\": 226.648, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 226.648, \"end\": 226.668, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 226.668, \"end\": 226.688, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 227.508, \"end\": 250.308, \"text\": \"這兩件事我們就來深入討論第一個移工的部分啊顯然在新南向政策之前我們就有很多的移工吧對不對所以這個東西你要講它這個成果好像有一點點不大大調因為對不對你前面有講說互惠互惠我們要看到說我推動這個政策之後因為這個政策加碼的東西但是移工本來就有長期的合作某些層面它也是一個相關相對運行成熟的產業鏈啊所以這種說法我是覺得有一點點站不住腳啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 227.508, \"end\": 227.669, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 227.669, \"end\": 227.769, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 227.769, \"end\": 227.909, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 227.909, \"end\": 228.109, \"score\": 0.623}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"深\", \"start\": 228.109, \"end\": 228.249, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"入\", 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\"end\": 423.015, \"score\": 0.679}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 423.015, \"end\": 423.035, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,529 --> 00:00:03,430\n謝謝主席次長有請請田次長委員您早早安啊次長這個今天我們要討論國際合作發展嘛對不對那是不是請次長先跟大家說一下這個我們的國際合作的理念是哪八個字互助互惠\n\n2\n00:00:26,806 --> 00:00:53,215\n然後是踏實外交踏實外交互助互惠OK非常好那我們新南向政策的核心理念是什麼新南向有四個最重要的支柱一個是人才的交流資源共享經濟的發展然後一種區域的鏈結大概是以這個四個這是你的政策目標嗎但是核心理念是什麼核心理念跟剛剛那個很像\n\n3\n00:00:53,975 --> 00:01:16,686\n就是把台灣目前認為能夠協助一些國家的我們的優點跟他們一起的合作因為這個沒有寫在工作報告裡所以我不為難你新南向政策的核心理念叫做長期深耕多元開展雙向互惠所以跟你這個國際合作的理念的踏實外交互惠互助其實概念是完全流通的\n\n4\n00:01:17,506 --> 00:01:44,306\n那今天就針對這個事情來做一下討論喔因為我在你報告第三頁裡面有看到說建構這個強化夥伴國的這個糧食安全體系那我就有一點小的疑問在這裡啦因為你除了有講說太平洋島國這些你做農糧的這個糧食安全協助這個本席願意理解而且跟我們有邦交嘛對不對但西南向的國家比如說印尼、泰國、菲律賓、越南也有執行所謂糧食安全相關計畫但就本席的理解他們本身就是\n\n5\n00:01:45,106 --> 00:01:49,955\n相對來講在農糧上面就有一定的競爭優勢那這個我們有什麼好協助人家的嗎\n\n6\n00:01:52,189 --> 00:02:10,104\n這幾個雖然也是國土非常的大但是它的農業基本上還是比較初級的農業那麼台灣您也曉得台灣從農業發展為工業然後現在是高科技所以我們農業的人才跟農業的科技方面其實是蠻強的那麼我們現在辦了什麼事情呢我們把我們的農業技術元化\n\n7\n00:02:16,829 --> 00:02:35,166\n然後把他的農業人才帶來台灣學習我們有親農的合作比如說印尼啊菲律賓我們在技術源外我們投入了多少資源你說是針對新南向國家對你當然可以做個量化嘛你可能有補助案啊或怎麼樣我們投入了多少資源\n\n8\n00:02:36,926 --> 00:03:00,499\n就是以前的數字嗎?對,對,對,用量化的,因為時間比較有限嘛,因為講,我們就沒有辦法做一個聚焦了。眼下沒有是不是?好,沒有關係,我不為難你,這做一下統計啦,做一下統計。那麼,從回到我們的政策核心精神,也就是說雙向互惠,還有你國際合作的互惠互動的理念,相對來講,這些新南向國家回饋給我們的是哪些東西?\n\n9\n00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:30,035\n新南向國家現在給我們的比如說我舉個例子來說好了我覺得像菲律賓向越南向印尼向泰國這些國家呢那些的勞工回到台灣他們來協助台灣在這方面的建築一共有將近有八十萬個外勞這是第一點移工對台灣的建設我相信是有非常大的幫助\n\n10\n00:03:30,675 --> 00:03:46,688\n第2個事實上在國際上面他們也某種程度的支持臺灣他們也一再的宣稱比如說菲律賓的總統一再宣稱臺海的安全跟穩定是非常非常重要我覺得這個部分我覺得也非常重要\n\n11\n00:03:47,508 --> 00:04:10,308\n這兩件事我們就來深入討論第一個移工的部分啊顯然在新南向政策之前我們就有很多的移工吧對不對所以這個東西你要講它這個成果好像有一點點不大大調因為對不對你前面有講說互惠互惠我們要看到說我推動這個政策之後因為這個政策加碼的東西但是移工本來就有長期的合作某些層面它也是一個相關相對運行成熟的產業鏈啊所以這種說法我是覺得有一點點站不住腳啊\n\n12\n00:04:10,848 --> 00:04:32,906\n那第二個當然次長你有講到我我正要問的就比較深水區的部分也就是說我們在技術援外的過程中能不能換到也許也許政治有點困難因為深水區啊但是我們總要看到一些進展對不對你剛講你舉個例子叫菲律賓的杜特蒂的這個個人的發言當然這畢竟只是一環而且本席一向問外交政策我不喜歡問宣誓的東西嘛\n\n13\n00:04:33,346 --> 00:04:57,915\n我就講我們都要踏實外交了我們當然要問實質的東西比如說我們花了這麼多的資源雖然現在資料沒有到位但是花了這麼多資源去協助新南向國家做農業的國際合作開發可是看起來在政治上面這些國家對我們並沒有比較友善有比較友善嗎?市長你覺得比較友善嗎?有,基本上是有我跟委員報告一下我們員外的東西我們不是說交換的\n\n14\n00:04:59,573 --> 00:05:01,455\n現在這些受我們協助的印尼、泰國、菲律賓、越南他們會不會支持我們加入CPTPP?\n\n15\n00:05:23,829 --> 00:05:38,383\n他們絕對不會反對因為我們現在是已經符合加入CPTPP的規則高規格的那麼他們對我們加入CPTPP的都是持正面的看法但會不會具體的那個他們如果受到中國大陸壓力的時候會不會會不會轉彎\n\n16\n00:05:43,367 --> 00:06:03,050\n中國的壓力無所不在這一點我必須先說那麼我們是在這個壓力之下怎麼樣跟他進行對台灣有利的事情我們做一個釐清第一個他們會不會加入協助我們加入CPTV第二個最近我們吳部長雖然他去接待外賓去他有講泰國人免簽的政策\n\n17\n00:06:03,950 --> 00:06:30,272\n他們當然是因為疫後經濟促進觀光有一個短期的開放那我們當然希望免簽是一個好的事情嘛這種實質的外交成果有沒有因為這樣子的合作他可以延長應該沒有問題沒有問題齁在泰國應該是是正面的看法是正面的看法好第三個最近我們要去那個世界台商大會我們江副院長據說也是受到一個政治壓力就簽證遇到的問題啊你看這個也是國家也是越南\n\n18\n00:06:30,652 --> 00:06:59,749\n越南也是我們這個國際合作協助的對象可是這個協助好像沒有換到政治上的一些支持本身是覺得有點可惜啦所以我要求因為今天時間到了啦我要求這個部裡面可能做一下我剛剛問嘛新南向我們一共在這些國家裡面投入了多少資源那我們秉持提醒外交部踏實外交互惠互助長期深耕多元開展雙向互惠都提了互惠互助我們不要投資的資源但卻回報有限那這樣子就表示我們外交政策可能需要一些檢討啦\n\n19\n00:07:00,569 --> 00:07:03,035\n好不好所以請外交部提供一些資料我們來做長期的追蹤可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝次長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n529\t3430\t謝謝主席次長有請請田次長委員您早早安啊次長這個今天我們要討論國際合作發展嘛對不對那是不是請次長先跟大家說一下這個我們的國際合作的理念是哪八個字互助互惠\n26806\t53215\t然後是踏實外交踏實外交互助互惠OK 非常好那我們新南向政策的核心理念是什麼新南向有四個最重要的支柱一個是人才的交流資源共享經濟的發展然後一種區域的鏈結大概是以這個四個這是你的政策目標嗎但是核心理念是什麼核心理念跟剛剛那個很像\n53975\t76686\t就是把台灣目前認為能夠協助一些國家的我們的優點跟他們一起的合作因為這個沒有寫在工作報告裡所以我不為難你新南向政策的核心理念叫做長期深耕多元開展雙向互惠所以跟你這個國際合作的理念的踏實外交互惠互助其實概念是完全流通的\n77506\t104306\t那今天就針對這個事情來做一下討論喔因為我在你報告第三頁裡面有看到說建構這個強化夥伴國的這個糧食安全體系那我就有一點小的疑問在這裡啦因為你除了有講說太平洋島國這些你做農糧的這個糧食安全協助這個本席願意理解而且跟我們有邦交嘛對不對但西南向的國家比如說印尼、泰國、菲律賓、越南也有執行所謂糧食安全相關計畫但就本席的理解他們本身就是\n105106\t109955\t相對來講在農糧上面就有一定的競爭優勢那這個我們有什麼好協助人家的嗎\n112189\t130104\t這幾個雖然也是國土非常的大但是它的農業基本上還是比較初級的農業那麼台灣您也曉得台灣從農業發展為工業然後現在是高科技所以我們農業的人才跟農業的科技方面其實是蠻強的那麼我們現在辦了什麼事情呢我們把我們的農業技術元化\n136829\t155166\t然後把他的農業人才帶來台灣學習我們有親農的合作比如說印尼啊菲律賓我們在技術源外我們投入了多少資源你說是針對新南向國家對你當然可以做個量化嘛你可能有補助案啊或怎麼樣我們投入了多少資源\n156926\t180499\t就是以前的數字嗎?對,對,對,用量化的,因為時間比較有限嘛,因為講,我們就沒有辦法做一個聚焦了。眼下沒有是不是?好,沒有關係,我不為難你,這做一下統計啦,做一下統計。那麼,從回到我們的政策核心精神,也就是說雙向互惠,還有你國際合作的互惠互動的理念,相對來講,這些新南向國家回饋給我們的是哪些東西?\n182100\t210035\t新南向國家現在給我們的比如說我舉個例子來說好了我覺得像菲律賓向越南向印尼向泰國這些國家呢那些的勞工回到台灣他們來協助台灣在這方面的建築一共有將近有八十萬個外勞這是第一點移工對台灣的建設我相信是有非常大的幫助\n210675\t226688\t第2個事實上在國際上面他們也某種程度的支持臺灣他們也一再的宣稱比如說菲律賓的總統一再宣稱臺海的安全跟穩定是非常非常重要我覺得這個部分我覺得也非常重要\n227508\t250308\t這兩件事我們就來深入討論第一個移工的部分啊顯然在新南向政策之前我們就有很多的移工吧對不對所以這個東西你要講它這個成果好像有一點點不大大調因為對不對你前面有講說互惠互惠我們要看到說我推動這個政策之後因為這個政策加碼的東西但是移工本來就有長期的合作某些層面它也是一個相關相對運行成熟的產業鏈啊所以這種說法我是覺得有一點點站不住腳啊\n250848\t272906\t那第二個當然次長你有講到我我正要問的就比較深水區的部分也就是說我們在技術援外的過程中能不能換到也許也許政治有點困難因為深水區啊但是我們總要看到一些進展對不對你剛講你舉個例子叫菲律賓的杜特蒂的這個個人的發言當然這畢竟只是一環而且本席一向問外交政策我不喜歡問宣誓的東西嘛\n273346\t297915\t我就講我們都要踏實外交了我們當然要問實質的東西比如說我們花了這麼多的資源雖然現在資料沒有到位但是花了這麼多資源去協助新南向國家做農業的國際合作開發可是看起來在政治上面這些國家對我們並沒有比較友善有比較友善嗎?市長你覺得比較友善嗎?有,基本上是有我跟委員報告一下我們員外的東西我們不是說交換的\n299573\t301455\t現在這些受我們協助的印尼、泰國、菲律賓、越南他們會不會支持我們加入CPTPP?\n323829\t338383\t他們絕對不會反對因為我們現在是已經符合加入CPTPP的規則高規格的那麼他們對我們加入CPTPP的都是持正面的看法但會不會具體的那個他們如果受到中國大陸壓力的時候會不會會不會轉彎\n343367\t363050\t中國的壓力無所不在這一點我必須先說那麼我們是在這個壓力之下怎麼樣跟他進行對台灣有利的事情我們做一個釐清第一個他們會不會加入協助我們加入CPTV第二個最近我們吳部長雖然他去接待外賓去他有講泰國人免簽的政策\n363950\t390272\t他們當然是因為疫後經濟促進觀光有一個短期的開放那我們當然希望免簽是一個好的事情嘛這種實質的外交成果有沒有因為這樣子的合作他可以延長應該沒有問題沒有問題齁在泰國應該是是正面的看法是正面的看法好第三個最近我們要去那個世界台商大會我們江副院長據說也是受到一個政治壓力就簽證遇到的問題啊你看這個也是國家也是越南\n390652\t419749\t越南也是我們這個國際合作協助的對象可是這個協助好像沒有換到政治上的一些支持本身是覺得有點可惜啦所以我要求因為今天時間到了啦我要求這個部裡面可能做一下我剛剛問嘛新南向我們一共在這些國家裡面投入了多少資源那我們秉持提醒外交部踏實外交互惠互助長期深耕多元開展雙向互惠都提了互惠互助我們不要投資的資源但卻回報有限那這樣子就表示我們外交政策可能需要一些檢討啦\n420569\t423035\t好不好所以請外交部提供一些資料我們來做長期的追蹤可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝次長\n","txt":"謝謝主席次長有請請田次長委員您早早安啊次長這個今天我們要討論國際合作發展嘛對不對那是不是請次長先跟大家說一下這個我們的國際合作的理念是哪八個字互助互惠\n然後是踏實外交踏實外交互助互惠OK 非常好那我們新南向政策的核心理念是什麼新南向有四個最重要的支柱一個是人才的交流資源共享經濟的發展然後一種區域的鏈結大概是以這個四個這是你的政策目標嗎但是核心理念是什麼核心理念跟剛剛那個很像\n就是把台灣目前認為能夠協助一些國家的我們的優點跟他們一起的合作因為這個沒有寫在工作報告裡所以我不為難你新南向政策的核心理念叫做長期深耕多元開展雙向互惠所以跟你這個國際合作的理念的踏實外交互惠互助其實概念是完全流通的\n那今天就針對這個事情來做一下討論喔因為我在你報告第三頁裡面有看到說建構這個強化夥伴國的這個糧食安全體系那我就有一點小的疑問在這裡啦因為你除了有講說太平洋島國這些你做農糧的這個糧食安全協助這個本席願意理解而且跟我們有邦交嘛對不對但西南向的國家比如說印尼、泰國、菲律賓、越南也有執行所謂糧食安全相關計畫但就本席的理解他們本身就是\n相對來講在農糧上面就有一定的競爭優勢那這個我們有什麼好協助人家的嗎\n這幾個雖然也是國土非常的大但是它的農業基本上還是比較初級的農業那麼台灣您也曉得台灣從農業發展為工業然後現在是高科技所以我們農業的人才跟農業的科技方面其實是蠻強的那麼我們現在辦了什麼事情呢我們把我們的農業技術元化\n然後把他的農業人才帶來台灣學習我們有親農的合作比如說印尼啊菲律賓我們在技術源外我們投入了多少資源你說是針對新南向國家對你當然可以做個量化嘛你可能有補助案啊或怎麼樣我們投入了多少資源\n就是以前的數字嗎?對,對,對,用量化的,因為時間比較有限嘛,因為講,我們就沒有辦法做一個聚焦了。眼下沒有是不是?好,沒有關係,我不為難你,這做一下統計啦,做一下統計。那麼,從回到我們的政策核心精神,也就是說雙向互惠,還有你國際合作的互惠互動的理念,相對來講,這些新南向國家回饋給我們的是哪些東西?\n新南向國家現在給我們的比如說我舉個例子來說好了我覺得像菲律賓向越南向印尼向泰國這些國家呢那些的勞工回到台灣他們來協助台灣在這方面的建築一共有將近有八十萬個外勞這是第一點移工對台灣的建設我相信是有非常大的幫助\n第2個事實上在國際上面他們也某種程度的支持臺灣他們也一再的宣稱比如說菲律賓的總統一再宣稱臺海的安全跟穩定是非常非常重要我覺得這個部分我覺得也非常重要\n這兩件事我們就來深入討論第一個移工的部分啊顯然在新南向政策之前我們就有很多的移工吧對不對所以這個東西你要講它這個成果好像有一點點不大大調因為對不對你前面有講說互惠互惠我們要看到說我推動這個政策之後因為這個政策加碼的東西但是移工本來就有長期的合作某些層面它也是一個相關相對運行成熟的產業鏈啊所以這種說法我是覺得有一點點站不住腳啊\n那第二個當然次長你有講到我我正要問的就比較深水區的部分也就是說我們在技術援外的過程中能不能換到也許也許政治有點困難因為深水區啊但是我們總要看到一些進展對不對你剛講你舉個例子叫菲律賓的杜特蒂的這個個人的發言當然這畢竟只是一環而且本席一向問外交政策我不喜歡問宣誓的東西嘛\n我就講我們都要踏實外交了我們當然要問實質的東西比如說我們花了這麼多的資源雖然現在資料沒有到位但是花了這麼多資源去協助新南向國家做農業的國際合作開發可是看起來在政治上面這些國家對我們並沒有比較友善有比較友善嗎?市長你覺得比較友善嗎?有,基本上是有我跟委員報告一下我們員外的東西我們不是說交換的\n現在這些受我們協助的印尼、泰國、菲律賓、越南他們會不會支持我們加入CPTPP?\n他們絕對不會反對因為我們現在是已經符合加入CPTPP的規則高規格的那麼他們對我們加入CPTPP的都是持正面的看法但會不會具體的那個他們如果受到中國大陸壓力的時候會不會會不會轉彎\n中國的壓力無所不在這一點我必須先說那麼我們是在這個壓力之下怎麼樣跟他進行對台灣有利的事情我們做一個釐清第一個他們會不會加入協助我們加入CPTV第二個最近我們吳部長雖然他去接待外賓去他有講泰國人免簽的政策\n他們當然是因為疫後經濟促進觀光有一個短期的開放那我們當然希望免簽是一個好的事情嘛這種實質的外交成果有沒有因為這樣子的合作他可以延長應該沒有問題沒有問題齁在泰國應該是是正面的看法是正面的看法好第三個最近我們要去那個世界台商大會我們江副院長據說也是受到一個政治壓力就簽證遇到的問題啊你看這個也是國家也是越南\n越南也是我們這個國際合作協助的對象可是這個協助好像沒有換到政治上的一些支持本身是覺得有點可惜啦所以我要求因為今天時間到了啦我要求這個部裡面可能做一下我剛剛問嘛新南向我們一共在這些國家裡面投入了多少資源那我們秉持提醒外交部踏實外交互惠互助長期深耕多元開展雙向互惠都提了互惠互助我們不要投資的資源但卻回報有限那這樣子就表示我們外交政策可能需要一些檢討啦\n好不好所以請外交部提供一些資料我們來做長期的追蹤可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝次長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.529 --> 00:03.430\n謝謝主席次長有請請田次長委員您早早安啊次長這個今天我們要討論國際合作發展嘛對不對那是不是請次長先跟大家說一下這個我們的國際合作的理念是哪八個字互助互惠\n\n00:26.806 --> 00:53.215\n然後是踏實外交踏實外交互助互惠OK非常好那我們新南向政策的核心理念是什麼新南向有四個最重要的支柱一個是人才的交流資源共享經濟的發展然後一種區域的鏈結大概是以這個四個這是你的政策目標嗎但是核心理念是什麼核心理念跟剛剛那個很像\n\n00:53.975 --> 01:16.686\n就是把台灣目前認為能夠協助一些國家的我們的優點跟他們一起的合作因為這個沒有寫在工作報告裡所以我不為難你新南向政策的核心理念叫做長期深耕多元開展雙向互惠所以跟你這個國際合作的理念的踏實外交互惠互助其實概念是完全流通的\n\n01:17.506 --> 01:44.306\n那今天就針對這個事情來做一下討論喔因為我在你報告第三頁裡面有看到說建構這個強化夥伴國的這個糧食安全體系那我就有一點小的疑問在這裡啦因為你除了有講說太平洋島國這些你做農糧的這個糧食安全協助這個本席願意理解而且跟我們有邦交嘛對不對但西南向的國家比如說印尼、泰國、菲律賓、越南也有執行所謂糧食安全相關計畫但就本席的理解他們本身就是\n\n01:45.106 --> 01:49.955\n相對來講在農糧上面就有一定的競爭優勢那這個我們有什麼好協助人家的嗎\n\n01:52.189 --> 02:10.104\n這幾個雖然也是國土非常的大但是它的農業基本上還是比較初級的農業那麼台灣您也曉得台灣從農業發展為工業然後現在是高科技所以我們農業的人才跟農業的科技方面其實是蠻強的那麼我們現在辦了什麼事情呢我們把我們的農業技術元化\n\n02:16.829 --> 02:35.166\n然後把他的農業人才帶來台灣學習我們有親農的合作比如說印尼啊菲律賓我們在技術源外我們投入了多少資源你說是針對新南向國家對你當然可以做個量化嘛你可能有補助案啊或怎麼樣我們投入了多少資源\n\n02:36.926 --> 03:00.499\n就是以前的數字嗎?對,對,對,用量化的,因為時間比較有限嘛,因為講,我們就沒有辦法做一個聚焦了。眼下沒有是不是?好,沒有關係,我不為難你,這做一下統計啦,做一下統計。那麼,從回到我們的政策核心精神,也就是說雙向互惠,還有你國際合作的互惠互動的理念,相對來講,這些新南向國家回饋給我們的是哪些東西?\n\n03:02.100 --> 03:30.035\n新南向國家現在給我們的比如說我舉個例子來說好了我覺得像菲律賓向越南向印尼向泰國這些國家呢那些的勞工回到台灣他們來協助台灣在這方面的建築一共有將近有八十萬個外勞這是第一點移工對台灣的建設我相信是有非常大的幫助\n\n03:30.675 --> 03:46.688\n第2個事實上在國際上面他們也某種程度的支持臺灣他們也一再的宣稱比如說菲律賓的總統一再宣稱臺海的安全跟穩定是非常非常重要我覺得這個部分我覺得也非常重要\n\n03:47.508 --> 04:10.308\n這兩件事我們就來深入討論第一個移工的部分啊顯然在新南向政策之前我們就有很多的移工吧對不對所以這個東西你要講它這個成果好像有一點點不大大調因為對不對你前面有講說互惠互惠我們要看到說我推動這個政策之後因為這個政策加碼的東西但是移工本來就有長期的合作某些層面它也是一個相關相對運行成熟的產業鏈啊所以這種說法我是覺得有一點點站不住腳啊\n\n04:10.848 --> 04:32.906\n那第二個當然次長你有講到我我正要問的就比較深水區的部分也就是說我們在技術援外的過程中能不能換到也許也許政治有點困難因為深水區啊但是我們總要看到一些進展對不對你剛講你舉個例子叫菲律賓的杜特蒂的這個個人的發言當然這畢竟只是一環而且本席一向問外交政策我不喜歡問宣誓的東西嘛\n\n04:33.346 --> 04:57.915\n我就講我們都要踏實外交了我們當然要問實質的東西比如說我們花了這麼多的資源雖然現在資料沒有到位但是花了這麼多資源去協助新南向國家做農業的國際合作開發可是看起來在政治上面這些國家對我們並沒有比較友善有比較友善嗎?市長你覺得比較友善嗎?有,基本上是有我跟委員報告一下我們員外的東西我們不是說交換的\n\n04:59.573 --> 05:01.455\n現在這些受我們協助的印尼、泰國、菲律賓、越南他們會不會支持我們加入CPTPP?\n\n05:23.829 --> 05:38.383\n他們絕對不會反對因為我們現在是已經符合加入CPTPP的規則高規格的那麼他們對我們加入CPTPP的都是持正面的看法但會不會具體的那個他們如果受到中國大陸壓力的時候會不會會不會轉彎\n\n05:43.367 --> 06:03.050\n中國的壓力無所不在這一點我必須先說那麼我們是在這個壓力之下怎麼樣跟他進行對台灣有利的事情我們做一個釐清第一個他們會不會加入協助我們加入CPTV第二個最近我們吳部長雖然他去接待外賓去他有講泰國人免簽的政策\n\n06:03.950 --> 06:30.272\n他們當然是因為疫後經濟促進觀光有一個短期的開放那我們當然希望免簽是一個好的事情嘛這種實質的外交成果有沒有因為這樣子的合作他可以延長應該沒有問題沒有問題齁在泰國應該是是正面的看法是正面的看法好第三個最近我們要去那個世界台商大會我們江副院長據說也是受到一個政治壓力就簽證遇到的問題啊你看這個也是國家也是越南\n\n06:30.652 --> 06:59.749\n越南也是我們這個國際合作協助的對象可是這個協助好像沒有換到政治上的一些支持本身是覺得有點可惜啦所以我要求因為今天時間到了啦我要求這個部裡面可能做一下我剛剛問嘛新南向我們一共在這些國家裡面投入了多少資源那我們秉持提醒外交部踏實外交互惠互助長期深耕多元開展雙向互惠都提了互惠互助我們不要投資的資源但卻回報有限那這樣子就表示我們外交政策可能需要一些檢討啦\n\n07:00.569 --> 07:03.035\n好不好所以請外交部提供一些資料我們來做長期的追蹤可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝次長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.529,"end":3.43,"text":"謝謝主席次長有請請田次長委員您早早安啊次長這個今天我們要討論國際合作發展嘛對不對那是不是請次長先跟大家說一下這個我們的國際合作的理念是哪八個字互助互惠"},{"start":26.806,"end":53.215,"text":"然後是踏實外交踏實外交互助互惠OK 非常好那我們新南向政策的核心理念是什麼新南向有四個最重要的支柱一個是人才的交流資源共享經濟的發展然後一種區域的鏈結大概是以這個四個這是你的政策目標嗎但是核心理念是什麼核心理念跟剛剛那個很像"},{"start":53.975,"end":76.686,"text":"就是把台灣目前認為能夠協助一些國家的我們的優點跟他們一起的合作因為這個沒有寫在工作報告裡所以我不為難你新南向政策的核心理念叫做長期深耕多元開展雙向互惠所以跟你這個國際合作的理念的踏實外交互惠互助其實概念是完全流通的"},{"start":77.506,"end":104.306,"text":"那今天就針對這個事情來做一下討論喔因為我在你報告第三頁裡面有看到說建構這個強化夥伴國的這個糧食安全體系那我就有一點小的疑問在這裡啦因為你除了有講說太平洋島國這些你做農糧的這個糧食安全協助這個本席願意理解而且跟我們有邦交嘛對不對但西南向的國家比如說印尼、泰國、菲律賓、越南也有執行所謂糧食安全相關計畫但就本席的理解他們本身就是"},{"start":105.106,"end":109.955,"text":"相對來講在農糧上面就有一定的競爭優勢那這個我們有什麼好協助人家的嗎"},{"start":112.189,"end":130.104,"text":"這幾個雖然也是國土非常的大但是它的農業基本上還是比較初級的農業那麼台灣您也曉得台灣從農業發展為工業然後現在是高科技所以我們農業的人才跟農業的科技方面其實是蠻強的那麼我們現在辦了什麼事情呢我們把我們的農業技術元化"},{"start":136.829,"end":155.166,"text":"然後把他的農業人才帶來台灣學習我們有親農的合作比如說印尼啊菲律賓我們在技術源外我們投入了多少資源你說是針對新南向國家對你當然可以做個量化嘛你可能有補助案啊或怎麼樣我們投入了多少資源"},{"start":156.926,"end":180.499,"text":"就是以前的數字嗎?對,對,對,用量化的,因為時間比較有限嘛,因為講,我們就沒有辦法做一個聚焦了。眼下沒有是不是?好,沒有關係,我不為難你,這做一下統計啦,做一下統計。那麼,從回到我們的政策核心精神,也就是說雙向互惠,還有你國際合作的互惠互動的理念,相對來講,這些新南向國家回饋給我們的是哪些東西?"},{"start":182.1,"end":210.035,"text":"新南向國家現在給我們的比如說我舉個例子來說好了我覺得像菲律賓向越南向印尼向泰國這些國家呢那些的勞工回到台灣他們來協助台灣在這方面的建築一共有將近有八十萬個外勞這是第一點移工對台灣的建設我相信是有非常大的幫助"},{"start":210.675,"end":226.688,"text":"第2個事實上在國際上面他們也某種程度的支持臺灣他們也一再的宣稱比如說菲律賓的總統一再宣稱臺海的安全跟穩定是非常非常重要我覺得這個部分我覺得也非常重要"},{"start":227.508,"end":250.308,"text":"這兩件事我們就來深入討論第一個移工的部分啊顯然在新南向政策之前我們就有很多的移工吧對不對所以這個東西你要講它這個成果好像有一點點不大大調因為對不對你前面有講說互惠互惠我們要看到說我推動這個政策之後因為這個政策加碼的東西但是移工本來就有長期的合作某些層面它也是一個相關相對運行成熟的產業鏈啊所以這種說法我是覺得有一點點站不住腳啊"},{"start":250.848,"end":272.906,"text":"那第二個當然次長你有講到我我正要問的就比較深水區的部分也就是說我們在技術援外的過程中能不能換到也許也許政治有點困難因為深水區啊但是我們總要看到一些進展對不對你剛講你舉個例子叫菲律賓的杜特蒂的這個個人的發言當然這畢竟只是一環而且本席一向問外交政策我不喜歡問宣誓的東西嘛"},{"start":273.346,"end":297.915,"text":"我就講我們都要踏實外交了我們當然要問實質的東西比如說我們花了這麼多的資源雖然現在資料沒有到位但是花了這麼多資源去協助新南向國家做農業的國際合作開發可是看起來在政治上面這些國家對我們並沒有比較友善有比較友善嗎?市長你覺得比較友善嗎?有,基本上是有我跟委員報告一下我們員外的東西我們不是說交換的"},{"start":299.573,"end":301.455,"text":"現在這些受我們協助的印尼、泰國、菲律賓、越南他們會不會支持我們加入CPTPP?"},{"start":323.829,"end":338.383,"text":"他們絕對不會反對因為我們現在是已經符合加入CPTPP的規則高規格的那麼他們對我們加入CPTPP的都是持正面的看法但會不會具體的那個他們如果受到中國大陸壓力的時候會不會會不會轉彎"},{"start":343.367,"end":363.05,"text":"中國的壓力無所不在這一點我必須先說那麼我們是在這個壓力之下怎麼樣跟他進行對台灣有利的事情我們做一個釐清第一個他們會不會加入協助我們加入CPTV第二個最近我們吳部長雖然他去接待外賓去他有講泰國人免簽的政策"},{"start":363.95,"end":390.272,"text":"他們當然是因為疫後經濟促進觀光有一個短期的開放那我們當然希望免簽是一個好的事情嘛這種實質的外交成果有沒有因為這樣子的合作他可以延長應該沒有問題沒有問題齁在泰國應該是是正面的看法是正面的看法好第三個最近我們要去那個世界台商大會我們江副院長據說也是受到一個政治壓力就簽證遇到的問題啊你看這個也是國家也是越南"},{"start":390.652,"end":419.749,"text":"越南也是我們這個國際合作協助的對象可是這個協助好像沒有換到政治上的一些支持本身是覺得有點可惜啦所以我要求因為今天時間到了啦我要求這個部裡面可能做一下我剛剛問嘛新南向我們一共在這些國家裡面投入了多少資源那我們秉持提醒外交部踏實外交互惠互助長期深耕多元開展雙向互惠都提了互惠互助我們不要投資的資源但卻回報有限那這樣子就表示我們外交政策可能需要一些檢討啦"},{"start":420.569,"end":423.035,"text":"好不好所以請外交部提供一些資料我們來做長期的追蹤可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝次長"}]}}}}