{"id":151124,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151124","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8a1755e5400c0e9c328e8443154433dfefb6b28ae2d84df8ba9b0039caa7a69dddcc694b59bbf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:42:37 - 11:53:07","影片長度":"00:10:30","會議時間":"2024-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、內政部、法務部、教育部、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、文化部就「數位技術普及造成兒少性剝削案件增加之因應作為與現行政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-15","duration":630,"end_time":"2024-04-15T11:53:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-15T11:42:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":886,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時42分）請薛部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我今天看了一下，我們委員會邀請的各部會的出席名單，我看了那個名單，我替你非常憂慮，我發現這件事情涉及到的相關部會，出席的官員層級非常的低，衛福部部長、司長來，其他部會有的是組長或是副司長來，一個次長都沒有到，數發部也只來了副司長，其他部會都用這個態度的話，我很難想像現在我們社會關注的這麼重大的事情，能夠得到很好的處理，我非常非常的憂慮，我看到今天其他部會出席的層級，我很難想像這是我們在處理重大社會關注案件的態度。","部長，我今天還是要跟你討論性犯罪影像網站後續的處理問題，我在上週質詢之後，確實當天傍晚我們看到，數發部就收到衛福部的發文而立刻封網，這個我們有看到，但我要提醒的事情是，其實在上週當天中午左右的時候，我的助理上去看就已經連不進去了，到底現在從臺灣連不上是因為封網，還是它自己在避風頭，這件事情當然都有可能，但至少確定的事情是，我們都心裡有數，它很有可能會用一個方式變形再出現，所以我要提醒部長的是，現在對於這個網站，我就不講它的名字，這個網站接下來會用什麼樣的形式、在什麼時間點再一次重出江湖，我要問衛福部、數發部跟警政署，你們有什麼主動巡查的對策？"],["薛部長瑞元：主動巡查這部分，第一個，我也有去請教過專家了，他們認為是可行，主動巡查……"],["洪委員申翰：對，有什麼主動巡查的對策？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，如果在技術上是可行的，我們可能就要先用一個委託案，委託民間來主動巡查……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，請問如果它一個禮拜後就出現了，你委託案來得及嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然有可能來不及，但是行政程序這部分沒有辦法避免。"],["洪委員申翰：是，但是我要提醒部長，這是社會重大關注的案件，如果它一個禮拜後又再一次出現在社會大眾的目光中的話，大家對於政府偵辦這個案件的信心會有非常、非常重大的打擊，所以我認為，部長，我知道你想委託專業的團隊來做這件事情，這點我不反對，但是恐怕我們需要更靈活，甚至更即時的機制來處理這個問題，甚至你要不要有一個快速的任務編組，在你現在部內能夠調度的資源和人力裡面來處理這件事情或相關的事情，我覺得部長要考慮這個事情。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們部內的人員大概沒有辦法處理這種。"],["洪委員申翰：那怎麼辦呢？假設你要委託一個團隊，這也是2、3個月後，假設這個網站下個禮拜就出現了，那我們怎麼辦？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以請委員詢問一下數發部有沒有能力去做，衛福部沒有能力做這種事情。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，要找數發部的事情，我絕對不會漏了他們，但我要跟你說，因為這件事不管怎樣你是主管機關。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員申翰：到底數發部或其他部會有沒有這個能力，坦白說，你也要掌握，今天其他部會有沒有能力，你也要掌握，因為你是主管機關。"],["薛部長瑞元：我所知道的這技術是有，但我不知道數發部有沒有這個技術。"],["洪委員申翰：上個禮拜之後，我們有沒有開跨部會的會議來把相關其他部會資源做個統籌、統整、了解和盤點？"],["薛部長瑞元：法務部對於個案有開會，但我們是沒有……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我要提醒一件事情，我有聽到你之前對其他委員質詢的時候其實有說，上禮拜我們後來是用行政執行法第三十六條，這有風險，對不對？我尊重你這個講法，但就是假如真的有風險，所以這也代表我們的動作必須更快，包括施行細則的動作、修改的動作也必須更快，部長同意嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：施行細則修改完之後還是要送到立法院。"],["洪委員申翰：當然要送到立法院，但總是有個時程的計畫嘛！部長，我現在問一個問題，在上禮拜我們質詢完以後，衛福部有沒有召開跨部會的會議請每一個部會一起來討論，一個專案的會議來討論各個部會該主責哪些事情、該做什麼分工，有哪些資源要盤點，有沒有開這個會議？"],["薛部長瑞元：之前有開過。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，之前開不行啦！其實上禮拜大家這麼關注的時候，你馬上就應該召開了，你召開了以後，至少是你主管機關的責任要擔起來，有些工作其他部會分工來做，那是其他部會的事情，我們也不會漏了他們，可是必須把這個事情擔起來嘛！我接下來想問的問題是，你有沒有看到，其實上禮拜也有出現這個報導，報導者報導，在XREX裡面，大家現在發現類似的網站的弱點可能來自於金流，所以這幾天我也跟幾個檢察官討論這個問題，他們講到一個問題，如果我們可以比照查詐騙去管控和管制虛擬貨幣的帳戶的話，這對這有用，可是我們現在對於性犯罪影像的網站的金流，包括它的帳戶，現在管控和管制的機制有沒有？金管會？金管會今天是個專門委員，金管會不用上來嗎？金管會有沒有看到這個報導？你們的作為是什麼？可不可以快一點啊！金管會，看了這個報導，你們的態度是什麼？我今天沒有問個案，我今天不是問司法正在偵辦的個案，我說看到這個網站，這個裡面的內容有看到嗎？"],["李專門委員彩溱：有，看到了。"],["洪委員申翰：你們有沒有建立機制，你們的作為是什麼？"],["李專門委員彩溱：我們目前會配合檢調的調查。"],["洪委員申翰：你們的工作只是配合檢調嗎？你們沒有其他行政作為嗎？你們覺得其他行政作為跟你們沒有關係嗎？金管會，你們今天為什麼沒有長官來？你是專門委員，對不對？"],["李專門委員彩溱：對。"],["洪委員申翰：為什麼沒有其他長官來？當大家現在已經知道類似的性犯罪網站最重要的關鍵痛點可能是在它的金流，是在它的虛擬貨幣帳戶的時候，你們的作為是什麼？"],["李專門委員彩溱：剛剛說過了，我們就是配合檢調的調查。"],["洪委員申翰：是什麼？對不起，聽不到。"],["李專門委員彩溱：配合檢調這邊的調查。"],["洪委員申翰：你們沒有其他行政作為？"],["李專門委員彩溱：目前沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：目前沒有其他行政作為！你等於雙手一攤嘛！檢調指揮你才有作為嘛！這我們怎麼可能把這件事情搞定？部長，我要說我非常憂心，我看到其他部會是這個態度。我最後想說的是，我們這段期間跟很多人，包括檢察官在討論，他們給了幾個我覺得非常重要的重點，因為我們在網路上面看到的不只是上個禮拜封網的那個網站，假如現在大家去google偷拍，一大堆的網站都還可以看得到在上面，所以它不是個案，我們要有機制去處理這個問題。部長，我們現在針對其他網站的機制是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：這就是我之前要講的，跟委員也報告過了，我們需要一個主動去搜尋的機制。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我時間快到了，我最後四個建議，這是幾個檢調專業朋友給的建議，現在對於網路犯罪除了根本的查緝被告，更重要的必須兼顧迅速的防止損害。第二，對於網路治理崇尚自由，也必須注意防止非法濫用。第三，域名的扣押是查緝網路犯罪的手段之一，但絕對不是唯一手段，即時的阻斷和屏蔽才是上策。最後，犯罪防制不只是檢警的事情，包括電信和網路監理的單位要怎麼發揮監理的功能，個別的主管機關要積極介入。我覺得這部分是我們最缺乏的。部長，不管怎樣，這一題主管機關就是衛福部，也許你會需要其他部會來協助、當你的工具，讓你去執行，這我都同意，可是我覺得你要立即召開一個跨部會的會議，把這些相關的部會都找來，大家現在手上有的工具、有的資源，或者它們應該要做什麼事情，尤其在行政端，不是全部都推給檢調，檢調能夠辦個案上面這麼多的通案嗎？檢調辦上禮拜一個案子就辦到氣喘吁吁了，現在有這麼多的案子，你沒有可能全部都靠檢調啊！部長，是不是可以儘速、這禮拜就召開這個會議，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["洪委員申翰：不然我覺得所有責任到你頭上，你可能也覺得不公平，但我覺得你還是必須擔起來，因為你們是主管機關，可以嗎？謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["主席：現在處理臨時提案，總共有12案，請一併宣讀。","一、","案由：有關衛福部遲至民國113年4月10日，才在國民黨立法委員王育敏立院質詢的一再催促下，發函數發部要求將「創意私房」強制停止解析乙事，衛福部顯然自我設限，甚至有違法瀆職之嫌，未能積極按照「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第8條」規定，在知悉有「犯罪嫌疑情事」之時，即先行限制瀏覽或移除犯罪有關之網頁資料，而薛部長瑞元亦恐難推辭其政治責任。","然，查察有關「創意私房」司法審判案件，早於民國111年1月13日，即由檢察官確定起訴其中涉嫌偷拍、上傳、散佈、涉及性侵害之相關創意私房之會員/加害人等（非該網站經營人、持有人），而起訴前，檢調即發起搜索、扣押證物、羈押加害人等行動，綜上述所有司法作為，在衛福部行政判準、規範中，竟然仍不足以按「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第8條」，立即將「創意私房」封網、下架實在荒謬至極。計民國111年1月13日檢察官起訴，至民國113年4月10日創意私房遭國內屏蔽，歷時共達818天。","在衛福部消極不作為的818天裡，讓犯罪性影像愛好者多了超過兩年時間得以購買，為性犯罪創造市場需求，畢竟「沒有購買才沒有傷害」；而不肖者則多了818天的時間，竄流台灣社會進行偷拍。在衛福部消極不作為的818天中，等同放任性侵犯、猥褻犯、孌童犯，以性侵、猥褻兒童等內容作為素材，拍攝、上傳、散佈、買賣性影像，甚至以此內容向被害人反覆威脅恐嚇；因為衛福部的消極不作為，讓無數犯罪性影像在這818天中上架、流通、買賣；而在這818天中，衛福部的消極不作為，使無數女性寢不能寐、讓受害孩童日夜啜泣、致台灣社會群情憤然，對此，薛部長瑞元實有不可推卸之責。","回顧薛部長瑞元任職衛福部次長，乃至真除部長這接近7年時間以來，衛福部失職、瀆職、消極不作為乃至涉及違法濫權之爭議層出不窮，諸如：於疫情嚴峻時期干預民間協助自國外採購疫苗、護航未通過二期實驗高端疫苗、將高端疫苗採購合約進行封存、進口巴西蛋混用釀成全民恐慌、蘇丹紅一再闖關檢疫邊境、剴剴遭虐致死3個月後才暫停受託單位繼續新收出養業務，乃至近日寶林茶室發生消費者誤食米酵菌酸重病、身亡，而衛福部慢半拍查扣食材證物，且在台北市政府將針對業者採取勒令停業之際，消極應對甚至曖昧反對。","查薛部長瑞元領導之衛福部，凡涉及執政黨政治利益者（高端），積極介入、違法護航甚至不惜封存合約，意圖屏蔽證據，凡涉及食品安全者，瀆職怠惰、消極推諉，最後往往直至民眾檢舉或死傷，經由媒體大肆報導而社會嘩然後，衛福部才後知後覺採取行動。然而「創意私房」網路下架乙事，衛福部在立委舉發、被害人申訴、加害人遭國家公權力起訴後，仍拖延818天才「發文」數發部進行封網，實在荒腔走板、可惡至極，士可忍孰不可忍。","新舊總統交接之際，內閣看守不意謂政務可以失守，爰此，命薛部長瑞元針對疫苗採購、巴西進口蛋、蘇丹紅闖關、剴剴受虐致死、寶林茶室、創意私房等等爭議中，於民國113年4月16日下午5時前，針對個人政治責任，貴部失職、瀆職以及行政消極不作為等情事，親自撰寫檢討報告，以回應台灣社會的質疑與不滿。","提案人：涂權吉","連署人：廖偉翔　　盧縣一　　陳菁徽","二、","請衛生福利部檢討兒少性剝削影像移除下架流程問題。請衛生福利部修正「性影像移除下架流程─性影像處理中心版」；並於一個月內研擬修法「兒少性剝削防制條例」明定專責單位，供本委員會委員審視，以明確行政程序。","提案人：林月琴","連署人：王正旭　　黃秀芳　　劉建國","三、","非法網站「創意私房」的兒少性影像案件，引發社會關注。據統計，違反兒少性剝削防制條例的通報案件樣態中，「拍攝、製造兒童或少年性交或猥褻行為之物品」的案件數有逐年增加趨勢。深究其中，案件數攀升原因有三：一是詐騙手法推陳出新，有心人士拐騙兒少自拍或被拍攝性影像；二、網路使用及通信方式方便性提高，不少學童國小開始就有手機，在個資保護意識不足的前提下，容易受騙或聽信網友話語而拍下性影像；三、性影像處理中心成立後，受害民眾申訴意願提高等。這些因素顯示行政部門應加強宣導，針對兒少性剝削的受害樣態從教育體系開始，提高網路使用人警覺，強化犯罪預防，並對於受害個案，社福系統均應致力開案處理。爰此提案要求，衛生福利部、內政部、法務部、教育部、數位發展部等，應於一個月內研商，深入學校及社區宣導之相關作為與活動，後續由教育部、衛福部主責辦理。透過教育、案例分享等方式，引導兒少建立正確的自我保護觀念及求助管道，並培養危機意識，同時增進教師、家長及社區民眾對兒少性剝削防制議題的認識、相關法令規範之認知及瞭解相關求助管道。","提案人：林月琴　　王正旭　　黃秀芳　　劉建國","四、","據衛福部統計，自2019年起，違反「兒少性剝削防制條例」的通報案例中，涉及兒少性影像犯罪的案件數逐年攀升，從717案上升至2,903案，且兒少性剝削防制條例通報案件的占比，亦逐年上升，由59.11%增加至86.76%。為防制兒少遭性剝削、遏止兒少性影像散布等犯行，衛福部應積極針對兒少性剝削防制條例中有關提高持有兒少性影像、支付觀覽等兒少性影像刑責，增加持有與支付觀覽行為樣態，以及行政處分及移除下架時限，行政裁罰等相關程序之簡化，爰此提案要求衛福部應於一個月內儘速邀集相關部會研議，並修正相關規定，透過網絡合作完善建構數位兒少防護網。","提案人：林月琴　　王正旭　　黃秀芳　　劉建國","五、","2023年2月15日修正通過並公告施行之《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》，附帶決議之一「衡量性私密影像於網際網路流傳對於被害者傷害影響甚鉅，衛生福利部應協同相關單位統計公布各網際網路平台接獲申訴或檢舉需限制瀏覽或移除網路資料之件數、完成件數、平均完成時間」，爰此，請衛生福利部將統計結果公告周知，使社會輿論製造網路業者儘速下架性剝削影像之壓力，以杜絕性影像再遭散布，完善被害人保護服務。","提案人：王正旭　　黃秀芳　　林月琴　　劉建國　　蘇巧慧","六、","近期，某藝人遭查獲持有未成年兒童及少年性剝削相關影像，引起社會撻伐，更有要求嚴懲兒童及少年性剝削犯罪者之輿論。按2023年2月15日修正通過並公告施行之《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》，衛生福利部應據此立法精神，嚴懲兒少性犯罪，杜絕性影像再次遭散布，爰此，請衛生福利部針對「使兒童或少年被拍攝、自拍、製造性交或猥褻行為之性影像案件」、「散布兒少性影像」、「無正當理由持有兒少性影像者」三者犯罪樣態於修法前後之裁罰情形進行統計，並將統計結果送至立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會。","提案人：王正旭　　黃秀芳　　林月琴　　劉建國　　蘇巧慧","七、","案由：","有鑑於行政院鄭文燦副院長日前主持「台灣社區醫院協會與衛生福利部政策溝通會議」，並在會後透過行政院發布新聞稿，確定護理獎勵夜班費層級差距要縮減，並且會透過大夜班醫學中心1,000元、區域醫院950元、地區醫院900元；小夜班醫學中心600元、區域醫院550元、地區醫院500元等明確金額之措施來落實。是以，當前各醫院之間，在行政院及衛福部共同掛保證之下，多已用新標準代為墊支費用並發放給我國基層護理人員，然而，所查相關費用自新標準訂定逾二個多月迄今，衛福部仍未讓各醫院收到帳款。爰此，考量衛福部受到主計總處所認不應用公務預算撥補支出經費的同時，雖聲稱照程序在辦理，然在落實清楚交代辦理期程之行政責任卻有所欠缺，故決議要求速於一周內向本委員會提交「我國護理獎勵夜班費經費支出作業機制暨發放期程說明」書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　陳昭姿　　盧縣一","八、","案由：","有鑑於衛福部刻正辦理被害人性影像集中處理服務，然而，經查該措施卻欠缺夜間接案應處機制，致令被害人在夜間時段求助無門及聯絡無門，更徒增在受傳播媒介發達之故而迅速擴散之二度風險。爰此，考量中央保護作業不應出現夜間時段的破口，復以如113保護專線機制已24時全天候開辦多年，並可供被害人性影像處理服務作業之借鑑，是以決議要求衛福部速以二個月內啟動性影像處理中心夜間作業為前提辦理，並於一個月內向本委員會提交進度報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　陳昭姿　　盧縣一　　涂權吉","九、","案由：","有鑑於南韓前總統文在寅，自其任內發生N號房案件並受揭露的一個月時間內，便即刻下令將刪除全部涉案影音，並為受害者提供法律、醫療等支援，且徹查所有會員身分，更親自向受害者表示慰問。對比我國，自從爆發Risu短網址受應用在國內性剝削案件的網路各社群後，再陸續曝光有「觸感空間」和「創意私房」等，對我國含未成年者在內等網路性剝削加害網站，同時早在2021年12月便有我國執法人員因參與犯罪結構遭受拘提；然而，總統蔡英文及副總統賴清德二人，在以國家元首的應處上始終無所作為，不僅明顯不比南韓之案例，更甚連台灣內部的封網作業都還是在拖延過了二年多的時間才進行，已明顯深愧國內遭性剝削的數以千計被害者及其親屬。爰此，特決議最嚴厲譴責我國總統蔡英文及副總統賴清德二人，並籲請其在檢討過後速向國人致歉。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　涂權吉　　","十、","案由：","有鑒於台灣面對少子化國安問題，每一位孩童健康成長有關未來國之國本，守護孩童健康成長，避免疾病造成傷害是政府重要的責任。腸病毒是一種傳染性極強，可經由接觸或飛沫而感染，台灣腸病毒一整年均可能發生感染，每年三月底開始進入流行季節，於五、六月達到高峰，只要進入腸病毒高發期，小學及幼兒園的學童缺課情況就越來越嚴重，甚至停課。在人群聚集且空氣流通不良的場所，以及家庭與學校中有很高的傳染率，而發病出現手足口病或皰疹性咽喉炎，對於幼兒及照護家庭，都是非常痛苦的煎熬。對於最容易造成幼兒重症的腸病毒71型，可以透過疫苗施打來做預防及減低感染後的症狀，目前僅有兩種自費疫苗可以施打，可接種對象都是2個月到6歲的幼童，需要施打兩劑，2歲以下施打高端腸病毒疫苗則需接種2+1劑，平均費用每劑約4,000元，施打兩劑及第三劑合計8,000-12,000元，對政府鼓勵生育減輕育兒家庭負擔的政策相違。爰此，要求行政院衛生福利部一個月內，研議提供全國6歲以下幼兒公費施打腸病毒疫苗的政策方案。","提案人：蘇清泉　　王育敏　　涂權吉","十一、","根據兒童及少年性剝削防制條例，無正當理由持有未成年人性影像者，可處一年以下有期徒刑，或併科新台幣3萬元以上，30萬元以下罰金。但是，美國對持有此類物品的懲罰，最高可處10年徒刑。與美國相比，台灣現行法規似嫌太輕，不足以引發警惕。","爰要求衛福部於一個月內提出修法版本，提高懲罰以遏止此類犯行。","提案人：蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍　　廖偉翔","十二、","當今社會只要有一台智慧手機，即可連線上網，因此兒少在網路遊覽時，有機會接觸到更多，不適合其年齡的網路資訊，因此在民國96年時，就已經有委員提案要求，政府要積極健全網路年齡驗證機制，但至今兒少在網路世界漫遊時，政府仍未有積極且有效的年齡、身分驗證方式。","爰此要求，衛福部應會同相關單位，盡速共同積極研擬有效的網路平台年齡、身分驗證機制，確保未成年人接觸到網路上不適當內容。","提案人：劉建國　　林淑芬　　王正旭"],["主席：處理第1案，請問主管機關有沒有意見？"],["薛部長瑞元：第1案是針對個人而來，如果個人有什麼問題的話，第一個，請委員向司法機關告發，不然也可以跟監察院檢舉，我們就進入程序來處理，我覺得在立法院用這樣的臨時提案要求個人去做什麼咎責方式的話，不是很妥當。"],["主席：請提案委員，有沒有意見？"],["涂委員權吉：是不是請部長要求衛福部針對這些案子做個檢討報告。"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，你現在這邊所寫的很多案子其實都不知道報告幾次了，N次了。"],["涂委員權吉：包含創意私房？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個可以，這是最近的，我們可以做檢討報告。"],["涂委員權吉：我們針對創意私房的部分，像我們剛剛講的，既然4月10日可以做，為什麼檢察官在起訴的時候，當下不去做這些處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們可以做一個檢討報告來向委員說明。"],["涂委員權吉：好，就針對創意私房的部分，請衛福部提出檢討報告。"],["主席：修正後通過。","處理第2案。"],["洪委員申翰：等一下，這怎麼修？"],["劉委員建國：第2案就剛剛講的那幾句話就好了。"],["涂委員權吉：因為部長的意思是說疫苗採購、巴西這些檢討報告之前已經做過了，我們就針對創意私房這部分提出檢討報告。"],["主席：修正文字再送給議事人員，針對創意私房的部分提檢討報告。","處理第2案。"],["張司長秀鴛：我們可以接受。"],["主席：第2案通過。","處理第3案。"],["張司長秀鴛：第3案可以。"],["主席：第3案通過。","處理第4案。"],["張司長秀鴛：第4案沒有問題。"],["主席：第4案通過。","處理第5案。"],["張司長秀鴛：遵照辦理。"],["主席：第5案通過。","處理第6案。"],["張司長秀鴛：建議加上法務部。"],["主席：提案委員有沒有意見？"],["林委員月琴：可以。"],["主席：第6案修正通過。","處理第7案。"],["黃副組長珮珊：第7案可否請委員同意時間由一週調整為二週？"],["陳委員菁徽：同意。"],["主席：第7案修正通過。","處理第8案。"],["張司長秀鴛：倒數第2行「啟動」改為「研擬」，「夜間作為」後面修正為「之可行性評估規劃」。"],["陳委員菁徽：同意。"],["主席：第8案修正通過。","處理第9案。"],["張司長秀鴛：我們沒有辦法執行。"],["陳委員菁徽：報告主席，有鑑於韓國也爆發過類似的案件，但是他們的總統在揭露的一個月內就下令即刻刪除全部的涉案影音，並且為受害者提供法律和醫療等支援，徹查所有會員的身分。跟韓國比起來的話，我們蔡總統曾經在2023年民進黨內爆發性平事件時就出來道歉，目前這個案件，我不知道衛福部有沒有協助檢討，或者是給予建議，但我希望可以把這樣子的提案列入會議紀錄。"],["主席：好，那委員有沒有意見？洪申翰委員有意見。"],["洪委員申翰：我想跟陳委員討論。我想這個案子大家都很關心，而且在監督跟檢討上面也都非常非常嚴厲，我確實覺得幾個行政部會，尤其是衛福部以外的其他部會，都還有態度太慢的問題。我自己是認為，像這種，假設我今天要監督或檢討的話，我檢討到對的人身上，會比今天所有的事情全部都要去檢討蔡英文跟賴清德來得有用。所以包括剛剛我們自己質詢的時候，今天數發部不OK，金管會不OK，我們也都是實質點名，要求他們負責，我覺得這都沒有問題。可是我覺得，好像變成假設未來是一個慣例，做任何事，大大小小的事情，都要委員會做一個提案，說檢討蔡英文、檢討賴清德，我覺得這個不一定對實質的事情會有多大的進展。"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道，但是在比例原則上啦。在黨內爆發性平爭議的時候，都可以出來做一些關懷或是道歉，在比例原則上，目前受害者是不計其數，應該至少上萬人，因為這些會員人數加一加是一萬多人，在這樣子的狀況下都沒有出來表態，我想全國人民是看在心中。所以如果可以的話，我知道可能沒有辦法實際在這邊做出任何的作為，或是有任何檢討報告，但我們還是想要把這樣子的訴求列入會議紀錄，不知道可以嗎？主席。"],["主席：有啊，你已經提案，一定是在會議記錄裡面，沒問題，只是這一個提案有沒有通過的問題。","來，洪委員。"],["洪委員申翰：其實當時對於民進黨內的性平案件，大家也都非常非常憤怒，當時賴副總統是賴主席，因為他是黨主席，所以他出來表態，可是我比較建議的事情就是說，如果今天哪一個行政官員有說錯什麼話，我們要檢討他，要譴責他，我覺得這有點道理，可是如果因為他沒有寫臉書，沒有表態，或者是發表什麼東西，就要去檢討他，我覺得此例一開，後面就有很多類似的檢討，其實我覺得常常就變成是打在棉花上，不一定會有實質的效果，我是做這個提醒，我覺得我們可以再討論一下怎麼讓大家現在覺得確實該檢討的事情可以檢討在點上面，我比較建議是這樣，好不好？"],["陳委員菁徽：主席，我們可以表決嗎？"],["主席：好，讓楊委員講一下。"],["楊委員曜：還是最好不要表決，我覺得陳委員假如是要留一個紀錄，我看衛福部也不可能在這邊同意這樣子的決議，當然我們委員會做的決議並不一定要經過行政院、行政機關的同意，這個沒有錯，可是我們在衛環委員會做出譴責總統、副總統這樣子的的決議，我覺得有一點怪，假如你要留一個紀錄的話，反正有提案就有記錄，也不要表決，我在這個委員會很久了，很少有表決的，我們就是找一個大家可以接受的方式，留下紀錄，也不要為難到行政機關，這樣子好不好？"],["陳委員菁徽：所以楊委員認為，目前我們就是持續在委員會中究責這些相關的部門，這樣就可以了嗎？"],["楊委員曜：也不是我們委員會究責，就是你的提案應該會在委員會留下紀錄。"],["林委員淑芬：就是說，大家有不同的意見，暫緩處理，留下紀錄。暫緩處理，也有記錄。"],["洪委員申翰：我們現在所有的發言都會有紀錄。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，主席，我這一案就先留下會議紀錄就好。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳委員，第9案暫緩處理，留下紀錄。","來，處理第10案。","對第10案，行政機關有沒有要修正的？這是有關腸病毒的。你們剛剛都沒有在看啊？"],["薛部長瑞元：好，一個月內我們來研議，這個可以。"],["主席：好，那就通過。","來，處理第11案。"],["張司長秀鴛：關於第11案，可不可以請委員將「一個月內提出」修正為「研擬」？"],["主席：「研擬」？"],["張司長秀鴛：是。"],["主席：因為這一個部分是大家高度關注的，其實很多委員已經都提出版本，這個禮拜就會送進院會，然後應該很快就會排案，所以可能沒有一個月的問題，很快就會審查了，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們建議改為一個月內研擬，但是改為「研擬」的話，會送到立法院來，可能時間上……"],["主席：你們來不及啦。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為一定還要走行政院的院會，所以我們先研擬，但是我們有擬一個文字，到時候委員併案審查的時候，我們也可以提供作參考。"],["主席：對，我想必須是要這樣子，或者是你們文字要稍微調整，因為這個修法會很快，不會等你們走行政院再進來，就是這個會期一定就處理完畢了，所以你們就寫「研擬」也沒有關係，但是委員會修法的時候，你們就要把你們的意見表達出來，好不好？好，通過。","來，處理第12案。"],["張司長秀鴛：關於第12案，其實這個已經是老問題了，但是在執行上確實是有困難，那我們會積極研擬。"],["主席：所以文字也要調整嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：沒有。"],["主席：沒有吧。沒有要調整，那就通過。","好，臨時提案已經處理完畢，然後我做一下修正宣告，我原本宣告登記第16順位的羅智強委員發言完畢我們就休息，因為委員有對調順序，所以現在第16順位改成是張雅琳委員，張委員質詢完畢，我們就休息半小時，給大家用餐。","接下來我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","洪申翰","黃珊珊","黃捷","洪孟楷","張雅琳","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 610.374, \"end\": 610.394, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:00,670\n進行諮詢請學部長好請學部長\n\n2\n00:00:17,833 --> 00:00:43,900\n委員好不然我今天看了一下這個我們委員會邀請的各部會的出席的名單我看了這個名單我替你非常憂慮啦我發現這件事情涉及到相關的部會出席的成績非常的低啊衛福部部長、司長來其他人來組長、來副司長一個次長都沒有到\n\n3\n00:00:46,348 --> 00:01:14,665\n速發部也只來副司長其他部會都用這個態度的話我很難想像我們這是我們現在社會關注的這麼重大的事情能夠得到很好的處理啦我非常非常的憂慮我看到今天這其他部會出席的成績我很難想像這是我們在處理重大社會關注案件的態度啦\n\n4\n00:01:16,670 --> 00:01:38,277\n我今天還是要跟你討論我們持續這個性犯罪影像網站後續的處理的問題我在上週質詢之後確實當天的傍晚我們看到蘇巴部就有收到衛福部發文而立刻封網這我們看到但我要提醒你的事情是其實在上週當天的中午左右的時候我的助理上去看其實就已經連不進去了\n\n5\n00:01:39,657 --> 00:01:56,057\n所以到底現在從台灣連不上是因為封網還是他自己在避風頭這件事情當然都有可能但至少確定的事情是我們都心裡有數他很有可能會用一個方式變形再出現\n\n6\n00:01:57,458 --> 00:02:15,516\n所以我要提醒部長說對於現在這個網站我就不講他的名字這個網站接下來他會用什麼樣的形式在什麼時間點再一次重出江湖我要問衛福部、數位發展部跟警政署你們有什麼主動巡查的對策\n\n7\n00:02:17,512 --> 00:02:44,034\n所以這部分的話主動巡查這個第一個我去也有去請教過專家他們認為說是可行對有什麼主動巡查的對策對如果在技術上是可行的我們就可能要先有一個委託案來委託民間來做這個主動巡查部長我問他如果一個禮拜後就出現了你委託案來得及嗎\n\n8\n00:02:45,194 --> 00:03:08,229\n當然有可能來不及但是行政程序這個沒有辦法避免是但是部長我要提醒這是社會重大關注的案件如果他一個禮拜後又再一次的出現在這位大眾的目光裡面的話就會對於大家對政府來辦這個案件的信心會有非常非常重大的打擊所以我認為部長我知道你想委託專業的團隊來做這件事情這我不反對\n\n9\n00:03:09,170 --> 00:03:28,539\n但是恐怕我們需要更靈活甚至更及時的機制來處理這個問題甚至你要不要有一個快速的任務編組在你現在部內能夠調度的資源跟人力裡面來處理這件事情或相關的事情我覺得部長你要考慮這個事情跟委員報告我們部內的人大概沒有辦法處理這個\n\n10\n00:03:29,724 --> 00:03:41,302\n那這個問題那怎麼辦假設你要委託一個團隊這可能兩三個月後啊那假設這個網站下禮拜就出現了那我們怎麼辦所以請委員詢問一下那個訴發部有沒有能力去做\n\n11\n00:03:44,396 --> 00:04:01,796\n部長我跟你說要找衛福部要找數位發展部的事情我不會漏了他們啦我絕對不會漏了他們啦但我要跟你說因為這件事情不管怎樣你是主管機關到底數位發展部或其他部會有沒有這個能力坦白說你也要掌握\n\n12\n00:04:03,632 --> 00:04:24,352\n今天其他部會有沒有能力你也要掌握因為你是主管機關我所知道是這個技術是有但是我不知道書法部有沒有這個技術那部長我請問上個禮拜之後我們有沒有開跨部會的會議來去把相關其他部會的資源做一個統籌跟統整跟瞭解跟盤點有沒有上禮拜之後\n\n13\n00:04:27,754 --> 00:04:57,054\n是對於法務部是對於這個個案有開會啦但是這個我們是沒有部長我要提醒一件事情我有聽到你之前對其他的委員的時候其實你有說上禮拜後來我們是用行政執行法36條這有風險對不對好我尊重你這個講法但就是因為假如真的有風險所以這也代表我們的動作必須更快包括我的施行細則的動作修改的動作也必須更快部長同意嗎\n\n14\n00:04:58,775 --> 00:05:15,635\n施行細則的修改跟報告委員這還是要送到修改完之後還是要送到立法院當然要送到立法院但是總是有一個時程嘛總是有一個時程會計劃嘛部長我現在問一個問題在上禮拜我們看完我們諮詢完以後是\n\n15\n00:05:17,945 --> 00:05:39,838\n衛福部有沒有召開跨部會的會議來請每一個部會一起來討論一個專案的會議來討論各個部會該組織哪些事情該做什麼分工有哪些資源要盤點部長有沒有開這個會議之前有開過啦部長之前開不行啦其實你就是應該上禮拜大家這麼關注的時候你馬上就應該要召開了嘛\n\n16\n00:05:40,868 --> 00:06:07,771\n你召開了以後這至少是你主管機關的一個責任要擔起來嘛有些工作其他部會分工來做那是其他部會的事情嘛我們也不會漏了他們可是必須把這事情擔起來嘛我接下來想問的問題是部長你有沒有看到往下對不起這個上禮拜其實也出現這個報導報導者報導在XRex裡面大家現在發現像類似的網站他很可能他的弱點是來自他的金流\n\n17\n00:06:09,932 --> 00:06:30,809\n所以這幾天我也跟幾個檢察官在討論這個問題他們在講到一個問題如果我們可以比照查詐騙去管控跟管制他們的虛擬貨幣的帳戶的話這對這有用可是現在我們對於這性犯罪影像的網站他的金流包括他的帳戶現在管控跟管制的機制有沒有金管會金管會今天是一個專門委員金管會不用上來嗎\n\n18\n00:06:43,188 --> 00:06:47,209\n警官會有沒有看到這個報告那你們作為是什麼可不可以快一點啊警官會這個報告看了你們態度是什麼我今天沒有跟你問個案喔我今天不是問司法現在偵辦中的個案喔我說看到這個網站這裡面的內容有沒有看到有嗎那你們有沒有在建立機制你們作為是什麼\n\n19\n00:07:11,755 --> 00:07:16,598\n我們現在目前會配合檢調這邊的調查你們的工作只是配合檢調嗎?你們工作只是配合檢調嗎?你們沒有其他行政作為嗎?你們覺得其他行政作為跟你們沒有關係嗎?金管會你們今天為什麼沒有長官來?你是專門委員對不對?為什麼沒有其他長官來?\n\n20\n00:07:41,597 --> 00:07:50,745\n當大家現在已經知道類似的性剝削網站最重要的關鍵的痛點可能是在他的金流是在他虛擬貨幣的帳戶的時候你們的作為是什麼?是什麼?對不起聽不到你們沒有其他行政作為目前沒有其他行政作為你等於雙手一攤嘛剪掉指揮你才有作為嘛這我們怎麼可能把這件事情搞定\n\n21\n00:08:13,206 --> 00:08:38,357\n部長我要說我非常憂心啦我看到其他部會是這個態度喔我想最後我想說啦我們其實這段時間跟很多包括檢察官在討論他們其實給了幾個我覺得非常非常重要的重點啦因為其實現在我們在網路上面看到的不只是上個禮拜封網的那個網站假如現在大家去google點偷拍一大堆的網站你都還可以看得到都在上面所以它不是個案啦\n\n22\n00:08:39,909 --> 00:09:03,435\n我們要機制性處理這個問題啊那部長我們現在針對其他網站的機制是什麼這就是我之前那講的跟委員也報告過了就是我們需要一個主動去搜尋的一個機制部長我時間快到了主席站起來我最後幾個四個建議這是我們跟幾個檢調專業的\n\n23\n00:09:06,155 --> 00:09:27,920\n朋友他們給的幾個建議現在對網路犯罪除了根本的查緝被告更重要必須兼顧迅速的防止損害第二個對網路治理崇尚自由也必須注意防止非法濫用再來一個是網域名的扣押是查緝網路犯罪的手段之一但絕對不是唯一手段即時的阻斷跟屏蔽才是上策再來一點\n\n24\n00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:43,553\n犯罪防制不是只是檢警的事情包括電信跟網路監理的單位要怎麼發揮監理的功能個別的主管機關要積極的介入我現在覺得這個部分是我們最缺乏的部長不管怎樣這一題主管機關就是衛福部\n\n25\n00:09:44,213 --> 00:10:03,108\n也許你會需要其他的部會來協助當你的工具讓你去做執行這我都同意可是部長我覺得你應該立即召開一個跨部會的會議把這些相關的部會都找來手上現在大家有的工具有的資源或者他們應該要做什麼事情尤其是在行政端不是全部都推給檢調檢調能夠辦剛剛上面這麼多的通案嗎檢調我們現在辦一個上禮拜的這個案子就辦到\n\n26\n00:10:10,234 --> 00:10:10,394\n現在我們處理\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t670\t進行諮詢請學部長好請學部長\n17833\t43900\t委員好不然我今天看了一下這個我們委員會邀請的各部會的出席的名單我看了這個名單我替你非常憂慮啦我發現這件事情涉及到相關的部會出席的成績非常的低啊衛福部部長、司長來其他人來組長、來副司長一個次長都沒有到\n46348\t74665\t速發部也只來副司長其他部會都用這個態度的話我很難想像我們這是我們現在社會關注的這麼重大的事情能夠得到很好的處理啦我非常非常的憂慮我看到今天這其他部會出席的成績我很難想像這是我們在處理重大社會關注案件的態度啦\n76670\t98277\t我今天還是要跟你討論我們持續這個性犯罪影像網站後續的處理的問題我在上週質詢之後確實當天的傍晚我們看到蘇巴部就有收到衛福部發文而立刻封網這我們看到但我要提醒你的事情是其實在上週當天的中午左右的時候我的助理上去看其實就已經連不進去了\n99657\t116057\t所以到底現在從台灣連不上是因為封網還是他自己在避風頭這件事情當然都有可能但至少確定的事情是我們都心裡有數他很有可能會用一個方式變形再出現\n117458\t135516\t所以我要提醒部長說對於現在這個網站我就不講他的名字這個網站接下來他會用什麼樣的形式在什麼時間點再一次重出江湖我要問衛福部、數位發展部跟警政署你們有什麼主動巡查的對策\n137512\t164034\t所以這部分的話主動巡查這個第一個我去也有去請教過專家他們認為說是可行對有什麼主動巡查的對策對如果在技術上是可行的我們就可能要先有一個委託案來委託民間來做這個主動巡查部長我問他如果一個禮拜後就出現了你委託案來得及嗎\n165194\t188229\t當然有可能來不及但是行政程序這個沒有辦法避免是但是部長我要提醒這是社會重大關注的案件如果他一個禮拜後又再一次的出現在這位大眾的目光裡面的話就會對於大家對政府來辦這個案件的信心會有非常非常重大的打擊所以我認為部長我知道你想委託專業的團隊來做這件事情這我不反對\n189170\t208539\t但是恐怕我們需要更靈活甚至更及時的機制來處理這個問題甚至你要不要有一個快速的任務編組在你現在部內能夠調度的資源跟人力裡面來處理這件事情或相關的事情我覺得部長你要考慮這個事情跟委員報告我們部內的人大概沒有辦法處理這個\n209724\t221302\t那這個問題那怎麼辦假設你要委託一個團隊這可能兩三個月後啊那假設這個網站下禮拜就出現了那我們怎麼辦所以請委員詢問一下那個訴發部有沒有能力去做\n224396\t241796\t部長我跟你說要找衛福部要找數位發展部的事情我不會漏了他們啦我絕對不會漏了他們啦但我要跟你說因為這件事情不管怎樣你是主管機關到底數位發展部或其他部會有沒有這個能力坦白說你也要掌握\n243632\t264352\t今天其他部會有沒有能力你也要掌握因為你是主管機關我所知道是這個技術是有但是我不知道書法部有沒有這個技術那部長我請問上個禮拜之後我們有沒有開跨部會的會議來去把相關其他部會的資源做一個統籌跟統整跟瞭解跟盤點有沒有上禮拜之後\n267754\t297054\t是對於法務部是對於這個個案有開會啦但是這個我們是沒有部長我要提醒一件事情我有聽到你之前對其他的委員的時候其實你有說上禮拜後來我們是用行政執行法36條這有風險對不對好我尊重你這個講法但就是因為假如真的有風險所以這也代表我們的動作必須更快包括我的施行細則的動作修改的動作也必須更快部長同意嗎\n298775\t315635\t施行細則的修改跟報告委員這還是要送到修改完之後還是要送到立法院當然要送到立法院但是總是有一個時程嘛總是有一個時程會計劃嘛部長我現在問一個問題在上禮拜我們看完我們諮詢完以後是\n317945\t339838\t衛福部有沒有召開跨部會的會議來請每一個部會一起來討論一個專案的會議來討論各個部會該組織哪些事情該做什麼分工有哪些資源要盤點部長有沒有開這個會議之前有開過啦部長之前開不行啦其實你就是應該上禮拜大家這麼關注的時候你馬上就應該要召開了嘛\n340868\t367771\t你召開了以後這至少是你主管機關的一個責任要擔起來嘛有些工作其他部會分工來做那是其他部會的事情嘛我們也不會漏了他們可是必須把這事情擔起來嘛我接下來想問的問題是部長你有沒有看到往下對不起這個上禮拜其實也出現這個報導報導者報導在XRex裡面大家現在發現像類似的網站他很可能他的弱點是來自他的金流\n369932\t390809\t所以這幾天我也跟幾個檢察官在討論這個問題他們在講到一個問題如果我們可以比照查詐騙去管控跟管制他們的虛擬貨幣的帳戶的話這對這有用可是現在我們對於這性犯罪影像的網站他的金流包括他的帳戶現在管控跟管制的機制有沒有金管會金管會今天是一個專門委員金管會不用上來嗎\n403188\t407209\t警官會有沒有看到這個報告那你們作為是什麼可不可以快一點啊警官會這個報告看了你們態度是什麼我今天沒有跟你問個案喔我今天不是問司法現在偵辦中的個案喔我說看到這個網站這裡面的內容有沒有看到有嗎那你們有沒有在建立機制你們作為是什麼\n431755\t436598\t我們現在目前會配合檢調這邊的調查你們的工作只是配合檢調嗎?你們工作只是配合檢調嗎?你們沒有其他行政作為嗎?你們覺得其他行政作為跟你們沒有關係嗎?金管會你們今天為什麼沒有長官來?你是專門委員對不對?為什麼沒有其他長官來?\n461597\t470745\t當大家現在已經知道類似的性剝削網站最重要的關鍵的痛點可能是在他的金流是在他虛擬貨幣的帳戶的時候你們的作為是什麼?是什麼?對不起聽不到你們沒有其他行政作為目前沒有其他行政作為你等於雙手一攤嘛剪掉指揮你才有作為嘛這我們怎麼可能把這件事情搞定\n493206\t518357\t部長我要說我非常憂心啦我看到其他部會是這個態度喔我想最後我想說啦我們其實這段時間跟很多包括檢察官在討論他們其實給了幾個我覺得非常非常重要的重點啦因為其實現在我們在網路上面看到的不只是上個禮拜封網的那個網站假如現在大家去google點偷拍一大堆的網站你都還可以看得到都在上面所以它不是個案啦\n519909\t543435\t我們要機制性處理這個問題啊那部長我們現在針對其他網站的機制是什麼這就是我之前那講的跟委員也報告過了就是我們需要一個主動去搜尋的一個機制部長我時間快到了主席站起來我最後幾個四個建議這是我們跟幾個檢調專業的\n546155\t567920\t朋友他們給的幾個建議現在對網路犯罪除了根本的查緝被告更重要必須兼顧迅速的防止損害第二個對網路治理崇尚自由也必須注意防止非法濫用再來一個是網域名的扣押是查緝網路犯罪的手段之一但絕對不是唯一手段即時的阻斷跟屏蔽才是上策再來一點\n568920\t583553\t犯罪防制不是只是檢警的事情包括電信跟網路監理的單位要怎麼發揮監理的功能個別的主管機關要積極的介入我現在覺得這個部分是我們最缺乏的部長不管怎樣這一題主管機關就是衛福部\n584213\t603108\t也許你會需要其他的部會來協助當你的工具讓你去做執行這我都同意可是部長我覺得你應該立即召開一個跨部會的會議把這些相關的部會都找來手上現在大家有的工具有的資源或者他們應該要做什麼事情尤其是在行政端不是全部都推給檢調檢調能夠辦剛剛上面這麼多的通案嗎檢調我們現在辦一個上禮拜的這個案子就辦到\n610234\t610394\t現在我們處理\n","txt":"進行諮詢請學部長好請學部長\n委員好不然我今天看了一下這個我們委員會邀請的各部會的出席的名單我看了這個名單我替你非常憂慮啦我發現這件事情涉及到相關的部會出席的成績非常的低啊衛福部部長、司長來其他人來組長、來副司長一個次長都沒有到\n速發部也只來副司長其他部會都用這個態度的話我很難想像我們這是我們現在社會關注的這麼重大的事情能夠得到很好的處理啦我非常非常的憂慮我看到今天這其他部會出席的成績我很難想像這是我們在處理重大社會關注案件的態度啦\n我今天還是要跟你討論我們持續這個性犯罪影像網站後續的處理的問題我在上週質詢之後確實當天的傍晚我們看到蘇巴部就有收到衛福部發文而立刻封網這我們看到但我要提醒你的事情是其實在上週當天的中午左右的時候我的助理上去看其實就已經連不進去了\n所以到底現在從台灣連不上是因為封網還是他自己在避風頭這件事情當然都有可能但至少確定的事情是我們都心裡有數他很有可能會用一個方式變形再出現\n所以我要提醒部長說對於現在這個網站我就不講他的名字這個網站接下來他會用什麼樣的形式在什麼時間點再一次重出江湖我要問衛福部、數位發展部跟警政署你們有什麼主動巡查的對策\n所以這部分的話主動巡查這個第一個我去也有去請教過專家他們認為說是可行對有什麼主動巡查的對策對如果在技術上是可行的我們就可能要先有一個委託案來委託民間來做這個主動巡查部長我問他如果一個禮拜後就出現了你委託案來得及嗎\n當然有可能來不及但是行政程序這個沒有辦法避免是但是部長我要提醒這是社會重大關注的案件如果他一個禮拜後又再一次的出現在這位大眾的目光裡面的話就會對於大家對政府來辦這個案件的信心會有非常非常重大的打擊所以我認為部長我知道你想委託專業的團隊來做這件事情這我不反對\n但是恐怕我們需要更靈活甚至更及時的機制來處理這個問題甚至你要不要有一個快速的任務編組在你現在部內能夠調度的資源跟人力裡面來處理這件事情或相關的事情我覺得部長你要考慮這個事情跟委員報告我們部內的人大概沒有辦法處理這個\n那這個問題那怎麼辦假設你要委託一個團隊這可能兩三個月後啊那假設這個網站下禮拜就出現了那我們怎麼辦所以請委員詢問一下那個訴發部有沒有能力去做\n部長我跟你說要找衛福部要找數位發展部的事情我不會漏了他們啦我絕對不會漏了他們啦但我要跟你說因為這件事情不管怎樣你是主管機關到底數位發展部或其他部會有沒有這個能力坦白說你也要掌握\n今天其他部會有沒有能力你也要掌握因為你是主管機關我所知道是這個技術是有但是我不知道書法部有沒有這個技術那部長我請問上個禮拜之後我們有沒有開跨部會的會議來去把相關其他部會的資源做一個統籌跟統整跟瞭解跟盤點有沒有上禮拜之後\n是對於法務部是對於這個個案有開會啦但是這個我們是沒有部長我要提醒一件事情我有聽到你之前對其他的委員的時候其實你有說上禮拜後來我們是用行政執行法36條這有風險對不對好我尊重你這個講法但就是因為假如真的有風險所以這也代表我們的動作必須更快包括我的施行細則的動作修改的動作也必須更快部長同意嗎\n施行細則的修改跟報告委員這還是要送到修改完之後還是要送到立法院當然要送到立法院但是總是有一個時程嘛總是有一個時程會計劃嘛部長我現在問一個問題在上禮拜我們看完我們諮詢完以後是\n衛福部有沒有召開跨部會的會議來請每一個部會一起來討論一個專案的會議來討論各個部會該組織哪些事情該做什麼分工有哪些資源要盤點部長有沒有開這個會議之前有開過啦部長之前開不行啦其實你就是應該上禮拜大家這麼關注的時候你馬上就應該要召開了嘛\n你召開了以後這至少是你主管機關的一個責任要擔起來嘛有些工作其他部會分工來做那是其他部會的事情嘛我們也不會漏了他們可是必須把這事情擔起來嘛我接下來想問的問題是部長你有沒有看到往下對不起這個上禮拜其實也出現這個報導報導者報導在XRex裡面大家現在發現像類似的網站他很可能他的弱點是來自他的金流\n所以這幾天我也跟幾個檢察官在討論這個問題他們在講到一個問題如果我們可以比照查詐騙去管控跟管制他們的虛擬貨幣的帳戶的話這對這有用可是現在我們對於這性犯罪影像的網站他的金流包括他的帳戶現在管控跟管制的機制有沒有金管會金管會今天是一個專門委員金管會不用上來嗎\n警官會有沒有看到這個報告那你們作為是什麼可不可以快一點啊警官會這個報告看了你們態度是什麼我今天沒有跟你問個案喔我今天不是問司法現在偵辦中的個案喔我說看到這個網站這裡面的內容有沒有看到有嗎那你們有沒有在建立機制你們作為是什麼\n我們現在目前會配合檢調這邊的調查你們的工作只是配合檢調嗎?你們工作只是配合檢調嗎?你們沒有其他行政作為嗎?你們覺得其他行政作為跟你們沒有關係嗎?金管會你們今天為什麼沒有長官來?你是專門委員對不對?為什麼沒有其他長官來?\n當大家現在已經知道類似的性剝削網站最重要的關鍵的痛點可能是在他的金流是在他虛擬貨幣的帳戶的時候你們的作為是什麼?是什麼?對不起聽不到你們沒有其他行政作為目前沒有其他行政作為你等於雙手一攤嘛剪掉指揮你才有作為嘛這我們怎麼可能把這件事情搞定\n部長我要說我非常憂心啦我看到其他部會是這個態度喔我想最後我想說啦我們其實這段時間跟很多包括檢察官在討論他們其實給了幾個我覺得非常非常重要的重點啦因為其實現在我們在網路上面看到的不只是上個禮拜封網的那個網站假如現在大家去google點偷拍一大堆的網站你都還可以看得到都在上面所以它不是個案啦\n我們要機制性處理這個問題啊那部長我們現在針對其他網站的機制是什麼這就是我之前那講的跟委員也報告過了就是我們需要一個主動去搜尋的一個機制部長我時間快到了主席站起來我最後幾個四個建議這是我們跟幾個檢調專業的\n朋友他們給的幾個建議現在對網路犯罪除了根本的查緝被告更重要必須兼顧迅速的防止損害第二個對網路治理崇尚自由也必須注意防止非法濫用再來一個是網域名的扣押是查緝網路犯罪的手段之一但絕對不是唯一手段即時的阻斷跟屏蔽才是上策再來一點\n犯罪防制不是只是檢警的事情包括電信跟網路監理的單位要怎麼發揮監理的功能個別的主管機關要積極的介入我現在覺得這個部分是我們最缺乏的部長不管怎樣這一題主管機關就是衛福部\n也許你會需要其他的部會來協助當你的工具讓你去做執行這我都同意可是部長我覺得你應該立即召開一個跨部會的會議把這些相關的部會都找來手上現在大家有的工具有的資源或者他們應該要做什麼事情尤其是在行政端不是全部都推給檢調檢調能夠辦剛剛上面這麼多的通案嗎檢調我們現在辦一個上禮拜的這個案子就辦到\n現在我們處理\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:00.670\n進行諮詢請學部長好請學部長\n\n00:17.833 --> 00:43.900\n委員好不然我今天看了一下這個我們委員會邀請的各部會的出席的名單我看了這個名單我替你非常憂慮啦我發現這件事情涉及到相關的部會出席的成績非常的低啊衛福部部長、司長來其他人來組長、來副司長一個次長都沒有到\n\n00:46.348 --> 01:14.665\n速發部也只來副司長其他部會都用這個態度的話我很難想像我們這是我們現在社會關注的這麼重大的事情能夠得到很好的處理啦我非常非常的憂慮我看到今天這其他部會出席的成績我很難想像這是我們在處理重大社會關注案件的態度啦\n\n01:16.670 --> 01:38.277\n我今天還是要跟你討論我們持續這個性犯罪影像網站後續的處理的問題我在上週質詢之後確實當天的傍晚我們看到蘇巴部就有收到衛福部發文而立刻封網這我們看到但我要提醒你的事情是其實在上週當天的中午左右的時候我的助理上去看其實就已經連不進去了\n\n01:39.657 --> 01:56.057\n所以到底現在從台灣連不上是因為封網還是他自己在避風頭這件事情當然都有可能但至少確定的事情是我們都心裡有數他很有可能會用一個方式變形再出現\n\n01:57.458 --> 02:15.516\n所以我要提醒部長說對於現在這個網站我就不講他的名字這個網站接下來他會用什麼樣的形式在什麼時間點再一次重出江湖我要問衛福部、數位發展部跟警政署你們有什麼主動巡查的對策\n\n02:17.512 --> 02:44.034\n所以這部分的話主動巡查這個第一個我去也有去請教過專家他們認為說是可行對有什麼主動巡查的對策對如果在技術上是可行的我們就可能要先有一個委託案來委託民間來做這個主動巡查部長我問他如果一個禮拜後就出現了你委託案來得及嗎\n\n02:45.194 --> 03:08.229\n當然有可能來不及但是行政程序這個沒有辦法避免是但是部長我要提醒這是社會重大關注的案件如果他一個禮拜後又再一次的出現在這位大眾的目光裡面的話就會對於大家對政府來辦這個案件的信心會有非常非常重大的打擊所以我認為部長我知道你想委託專業的團隊來做這件事情這我不反對\n\n03:09.170 --> 03:28.539\n但是恐怕我們需要更靈活甚至更及時的機制來處理這個問題甚至你要不要有一個快速的任務編組在你現在部內能夠調度的資源跟人力裡面來處理這件事情或相關的事情我覺得部長你要考慮這個事情跟委員報告我們部內的人大概沒有辦法處理這個\n\n03:29.724 --> 03:41.302\n那這個問題那怎麼辦假設你要委託一個團隊這可能兩三個月後啊那假設這個網站下禮拜就出現了那我們怎麼辦所以請委員詢問一下那個訴發部有沒有能力去做\n\n03:44.396 --> 04:01.796\n部長我跟你說要找衛福部要找數位發展部的事情我不會漏了他們啦我絕對不會漏了他們啦但我要跟你說因為這件事情不管怎樣你是主管機關到底數位發展部或其他部會有沒有這個能力坦白說你也要掌握\n\n04:03.632 --> 04:24.352\n今天其他部會有沒有能力你也要掌握因為你是主管機關我所知道是這個技術是有但是我不知道書法部有沒有這個技術那部長我請問上個禮拜之後我們有沒有開跨部會的會議來去把相關其他部會的資源做一個統籌跟統整跟瞭解跟盤點有沒有上禮拜之後\n\n04:27.754 --> 04:57.054\n是對於法務部是對於這個個案有開會啦但是這個我們是沒有部長我要提醒一件事情我有聽到你之前對其他的委員的時候其實你有說上禮拜後來我們是用行政執行法36條這有風險對不對好我尊重你這個講法但就是因為假如真的有風險所以這也代表我們的動作必須更快包括我的施行細則的動作修改的動作也必須更快部長同意嗎\n\n04:58.775 --> 05:15.635\n施行細則的修改跟報告委員這還是要送到修改完之後還是要送到立法院當然要送到立法院但是總是有一個時程嘛總是有一個時程會計劃嘛部長我現在問一個問題在上禮拜我們看完我們諮詢完以後是\n\n05:17.945 --> 05:39.838\n衛福部有沒有召開跨部會的會議來請每一個部會一起來討論一個專案的會議來討論各個部會該組織哪些事情該做什麼分工有哪些資源要盤點部長有沒有開這個會議之前有開過啦部長之前開不行啦其實你就是應該上禮拜大家這麼關注的時候你馬上就應該要召開了嘛\n\n05:40.868 --> 06:07.771\n你召開了以後這至少是你主管機關的一個責任要擔起來嘛有些工作其他部會分工來做那是其他部會的事情嘛我們也不會漏了他們可是必須把這事情擔起來嘛我接下來想問的問題是部長你有沒有看到往下對不起這個上禮拜其實也出現這個報導報導者報導在XRex裡面大家現在發現像類似的網站他很可能他的弱點是來自他的金流\n\n06:09.932 --> 06:30.809\n所以這幾天我也跟幾個檢察官在討論這個問題他們在講到一個問題如果我們可以比照查詐騙去管控跟管制他們的虛擬貨幣的帳戶的話這對這有用可是現在我們對於這性犯罪影像的網站他的金流包括他的帳戶現在管控跟管制的機制有沒有金管會金管會今天是一個專門委員金管會不用上來嗎\n\n06:43.188 --> 06:47.209\n警官會有沒有看到這個報告那你們作為是什麼可不可以快一點啊警官會這個報告看了你們態度是什麼我今天沒有跟你問個案喔我今天不是問司法現在偵辦中的個案喔我說看到這個網站這裡面的內容有沒有看到有嗎那你們有沒有在建立機制你們作為是什麼\n\n07:11.755 --> 07:16.598\n我們現在目前會配合檢調這邊的調查你們的工作只是配合檢調嗎?你們工作只是配合檢調嗎?你們沒有其他行政作為嗎?你們覺得其他行政作為跟你們沒有關係嗎?金管會你們今天為什麼沒有長官來?你是專門委員對不對?為什麼沒有其他長官來?\n\n07:41.597 --> 07:50.745\n當大家現在已經知道類似的性剝削網站最重要的關鍵的痛點可能是在他的金流是在他虛擬貨幣的帳戶的時候你們的作為是什麼?是什麼?對不起聽不到你們沒有其他行政作為目前沒有其他行政作為你等於雙手一攤嘛剪掉指揮你才有作為嘛這我們怎麼可能把這件事情搞定\n\n08:13.206 --> 08:38.357\n部長我要說我非常憂心啦我看到其他部會是這個態度喔我想最後我想說啦我們其實這段時間跟很多包括檢察官在討論他們其實給了幾個我覺得非常非常重要的重點啦因為其實現在我們在網路上面看到的不只是上個禮拜封網的那個網站假如現在大家去google點偷拍一大堆的網站你都還可以看得到都在上面所以它不是個案啦\n\n08:39.909 --> 09:03.435\n我們要機制性處理這個問題啊那部長我們現在針對其他網站的機制是什麼這就是我之前那講的跟委員也報告過了就是我們需要一個主動去搜尋的一個機制部長我時間快到了主席站起來我最後幾個四個建議這是我們跟幾個檢調專業的\n\n09:06.155 --> 09:27.920\n朋友他們給的幾個建議現在對網路犯罪除了根本的查緝被告更重要必須兼顧迅速的防止損害第二個對網路治理崇尚自由也必須注意防止非法濫用再來一個是網域名的扣押是查緝網路犯罪的手段之一但絕對不是唯一手段即時的阻斷跟屏蔽才是上策再來一點\n\n09:28.920 --> 09:43.553\n犯罪防制不是只是檢警的事情包括電信跟網路監理的單位要怎麼發揮監理的功能個別的主管機關要積極的介入我現在覺得這個部分是我們最缺乏的部長不管怎樣這一題主管機關就是衛福部\n\n09:44.213 --> 10:03.108\n也許你會需要其他的部會來協助當你的工具讓你去做執行這我都同意可是部長我覺得你應該立即召開一個跨部會的會議把這些相關的部會都找來手上現在大家有的工具有的資源或者他們應該要做什麼事情尤其是在行政端不是全部都推給檢調檢調能夠辦剛剛上面這麼多的通案嗎檢調我們現在辦一個上禮拜的這個案子就辦到\n\n10:10.234 --> 10:10.394\n現在我們處理\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.67,"text":"進行諮詢請學部長好請學部長"},{"start":17.833,"end":43.9,"text":"委員好不然我今天看了一下這個我們委員會邀請的各部會的出席的名單我看了這個名單我替你非常憂慮啦我發現這件事情涉及到相關的部會出席的成績非常的低啊衛福部部長、司長來其他人來組長、來副司長一個次長都沒有到"},{"start":46.348,"end":74.665,"text":"速發部也只來副司長其他部會都用這個態度的話我很難想像我們這是我們現在社會關注的這麼重大的事情能夠得到很好的處理啦我非常非常的憂慮我看到今天這其他部會出席的成績我很難想像這是我們在處理重大社會關注案件的態度啦"},{"start":76.67,"end":98.277,"text":"我今天還是要跟你討論我們持續這個性犯罪影像網站後續的處理的問題我在上週質詢之後確實當天的傍晚我們看到蘇巴部就有收到衛福部發文而立刻封網這我們看到但我要提醒你的事情是其實在上週當天的中午左右的時候我的助理上去看其實就已經連不進去了"},{"start":99.657,"end":116.057,"text":"所以到底現在從台灣連不上是因為封網還是他自己在避風頭這件事情當然都有可能但至少確定的事情是我們都心裡有數他很有可能會用一個方式變形再出現"},{"start":117.458,"end":135.516,"text":"所以我要提醒部長說對於現在這個網站我就不講他的名字這個網站接下來他會用什麼樣的形式在什麼時間點再一次重出江湖我要問衛福部、數位發展部跟警政署你們有什麼主動巡查的對策"},{"start":137.512,"end":164.034,"text":"所以這部分的話主動巡查這個第一個我去也有去請教過專家他們認為說是可行對有什麼主動巡查的對策對如果在技術上是可行的我們就可能要先有一個委託案來委託民間來做這個主動巡查部長我問他如果一個禮拜後就出現了你委託案來得及嗎"},{"start":165.194,"end":188.229,"text":"當然有可能來不及但是行政程序這個沒有辦法避免是但是部長我要提醒這是社會重大關注的案件如果他一個禮拜後又再一次的出現在這位大眾的目光裡面的話就會對於大家對政府來辦這個案件的信心會有非常非常重大的打擊所以我認為部長我知道你想委託專業的團隊來做這件事情這我不反對"},{"start":189.17,"end":208.539,"text":"但是恐怕我們需要更靈活甚至更及時的機制來處理這個問題甚至你要不要有一個快速的任務編組在你現在部內能夠調度的資源跟人力裡面來處理這件事情或相關的事情我覺得部長你要考慮這個事情跟委員報告我們部內的人大概沒有辦法處理這個"},{"start":209.724,"end":221.302,"text":"那這個問題那怎麼辦假設你要委託一個團隊這可能兩三個月後啊那假設這個網站下禮拜就出現了那我們怎麼辦所以請委員詢問一下那個訴發部有沒有能力去做"},{"start":224.396,"end":241.796,"text":"部長我跟你說要找衛福部要找數位發展部的事情我不會漏了他們啦我絕對不會漏了他們啦但我要跟你說因為這件事情不管怎樣你是主管機關到底數位發展部或其他部會有沒有這個能力坦白說你也要掌握"},{"start":243.632,"end":264.352,"text":"今天其他部會有沒有能力你也要掌握因為你是主管機關我所知道是這個技術是有但是我不知道書法部有沒有這個技術那部長我請問上個禮拜之後我們有沒有開跨部會的會議來去把相關其他部會的資源做一個統籌跟統整跟瞭解跟盤點有沒有上禮拜之後"},{"start":267.754,"end":297.054,"text":"是對於法務部是對於這個個案有開會啦但是這個我們是沒有部長我要提醒一件事情我有聽到你之前對其他的委員的時候其實你有說上禮拜後來我們是用行政執行法36條這有風險對不對好我尊重你這個講法但就是因為假如真的有風險所以這也代表我們的動作必須更快包括我的施行細則的動作修改的動作也必須更快部長同意嗎"},{"start":298.775,"end":315.635,"text":"施行細則的修改跟報告委員這還是要送到修改完之後還是要送到立法院當然要送到立法院但是總是有一個時程嘛總是有一個時程會計劃嘛部長我現在問一個問題在上禮拜我們看完我們諮詢完以後是"},{"start":317.945,"end":339.838,"text":"衛福部有沒有召開跨部會的會議來請每一個部會一起來討論一個專案的會議來討論各個部會該組織哪些事情該做什麼分工有哪些資源要盤點部長有沒有開這個會議之前有開過啦部長之前開不行啦其實你就是應該上禮拜大家這麼關注的時候你馬上就應該要召開了嘛"},{"start":340.868,"end":367.771,"text":"你召開了以後這至少是你主管機關的一個責任要擔起來嘛有些工作其他部會分工來做那是其他部會的事情嘛我們也不會漏了他們可是必須把這事情擔起來嘛我接下來想問的問題是部長你有沒有看到往下對不起這個上禮拜其實也出現這個報導報導者報導在XRex裡面大家現在發現像類似的網站他很可能他的弱點是來自他的金流"},{"start":369.932,"end":390.809,"text":"所以這幾天我也跟幾個檢察官在討論這個問題他們在講到一個問題如果我們可以比照查詐騙去管控跟管制他們的虛擬貨幣的帳戶的話這對這有用可是現在我們對於這性犯罪影像的網站他的金流包括他的帳戶現在管控跟管制的機制有沒有金管會金管會今天是一個專門委員金管會不用上來嗎"},{"start":403.188,"end":407.209,"text":"警官會有沒有看到這個報告那你們作為是什麼可不可以快一點啊警官會這個報告看了你們態度是什麼我今天沒有跟你問個案喔我今天不是問司法現在偵辦中的個案喔我說看到這個網站這裡面的內容有沒有看到有嗎那你們有沒有在建立機制你們作為是什麼"},{"start":431.755,"end":436.598,"text":"我們現在目前會配合檢調這邊的調查你們的工作只是配合檢調嗎?你們工作只是配合檢調嗎?你們沒有其他行政作為嗎?你們覺得其他行政作為跟你們沒有關係嗎?金管會你們今天為什麼沒有長官來?你是專門委員對不對?為什麼沒有其他長官來?"},{"start":461.597,"end":470.745,"text":"當大家現在已經知道類似的性剝削網站最重要的關鍵的痛點可能是在他的金流是在他虛擬貨幣的帳戶的時候你們的作為是什麼?是什麼?對不起聽不到你們沒有其他行政作為目前沒有其他行政作為你等於雙手一攤嘛剪掉指揮你才有作為嘛這我們怎麼可能把這件事情搞定"},{"start":493.206,"end":518.357,"text":"部長我要說我非常憂心啦我看到其他部會是這個態度喔我想最後我想說啦我們其實這段時間跟很多包括檢察官在討論他們其實給了幾個我覺得非常非常重要的重點啦因為其實現在我們在網路上面看到的不只是上個禮拜封網的那個網站假如現在大家去google點偷拍一大堆的網站你都還可以看得到都在上面所以它不是個案啦"},{"start":519.909,"end":543.435,"text":"我們要機制性處理這個問題啊那部長我們現在針對其他網站的機制是什麼這就是我之前那講的跟委員也報告過了就是我們需要一個主動去搜尋的一個機制部長我時間快到了主席站起來我最後幾個四個建議這是我們跟幾個檢調專業的"},{"start":546.155,"end":567.92,"text":"朋友他們給的幾個建議現在對網路犯罪除了根本的查緝被告更重要必須兼顧迅速的防止損害第二個對網路治理崇尚自由也必須注意防止非法濫用再來一個是網域名的扣押是查緝網路犯罪的手段之一但絕對不是唯一手段即時的阻斷跟屏蔽才是上策再來一點"},{"start":568.92,"end":583.553,"text":"犯罪防制不是只是檢警的事情包括電信跟網路監理的單位要怎麼發揮監理的功能個別的主管機關要積極的介入我現在覺得這個部分是我們最缺乏的部長不管怎樣這一題主管機關就是衛福部"},{"start":584.213,"end":603.108,"text":"也許你會需要其他的部會來協助當你的工具讓你去做執行這我都同意可是部長我覺得你應該立即召開一個跨部會的會議把這些相關的部會都找來手上現在大家有的工具有的資源或者他們應該要做什麼事情尤其是在行政端不是全部都推給檢調檢調能夠辦剛剛上面這麼多的通案嗎檢調我們現在辦一個上禮拜的這個案子就辦到"},{"start":610.234,"end":610.394,"text":"現在我們處理"}]}}}}