{"id":151138,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151138","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8a1755e5400c0ea2107447dc99edd0bd5be8c4a3d24463f8ba9b0039caa7a655e3c685c98c6aef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:30:02 - 10:42:56","影片長度":"00:12:54","會議時間":"2024-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長、行政院主計總處副主計長、原住民族委員會、行政院公共工程委員會、交通部、交通部觀光署、環境部、勞動部、農業部、教育部、衛生福利部、經濟部、財政部、國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會、金融監督管理委員會就「0403震災之災後救助、重建規劃及補助方式」及「從東華實驗室失火事件檢討災害防救之完備化」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-11"},"date":"2024-04-15","duration":774,"end_time":"2024-04-15T10:42:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-15T10:30:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":892,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時30分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長早安。剛剛建賓委員提到520之後可能有些異動，但是當一天和尚撞一天鐘，在內政部長最後這一段工作的期間，我們還是有幾個非常重要的題目來做探討，所以我們也沒有在區分這是不是一個看守的狀態。","今天當然是針對4月3號地震之後一些善後的措施提出質詢，我們大概有三個問題要就教部長，第一個，補助資訊沒有整合；第二個，社區自治不容易；第三個，都更意願待提升，我想這三件事都很值得內政部立刻來做一個討論。在內政部的工作報告裡面有提到，針對災民善後居住協助措施，比如說釋出了包租代管的房屋物件；比如說做了建築物的補強補助；有所謂的租金補貼等等，當然大家也會關注，就是你要協助都更跟危老重建的一些措施。但是本席發現，這些跟災民有關的資訊，散布在內政部各個網頁裡面，當然我們瞭解內政部是一個大部，分工非常繁瑣，但這樣好像不太好，因為像財政部、賦稅署等等這些官網，都已經有一站式的服務機制了。也就是說，當震災出現之後，災民可能要瞭解像稅捐上有哪一些減免，所以就會上財政部的網站、就會上賦稅署的網站。當他一進到網頁後，因為有4月3號大地震特殊的狀況，所以他們把相關事項全部都整理好，然後有一個「災害協助專區」。照理來講，地震跟內政部是最密切相關的，所以我要請問一下部長，為什麼其他部會做得好像比內政部還快，你要不要說明一下？"],["林部長右昌：委員我跟你報告，因為業務狀況不太一樣，財政部這個部分都是現有的機制，都不需要再重新提報新的計畫給行政院，而我們內政部所負責的業務，必須要提計畫到行政院。我們在上個禮拜已經送到院裡面，應該是這個禮拜應該可以核定，我們會在行政院正式核定之後，當然會把整個完整……不過我們已經有通知縣市政府了。"],["牛委員煦庭：我的意思是說，剛才你說財政部跟賦稅署那是立刻就有的機制，而內政部一定也有立刻就有的機制，比如說包租代管的房屋，你第一時間就釋出了，這個就沒有必要跟行政院再做討論；比如說你現在就有租屋補貼，相關的說明可以來做這一次的宣導。所以當然是第一時間你要先有一個一站式的服務窗口，將你現有的機制先放進去，讓有需要的人民馬上可以得到所需的資料，後面你要補上來的，比如說針對危老都更等等，有一些新進展的時候，你當然就把它on上去、放在網站上，增加新的項目，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：委員，跟你報告一下，簡短20秒就好，因為這不是項目的問題，是因為我們針對0403震災相關的一個補貼是加碼的，所以怕造成民眾的一個誤會，因為我們現在一po上去之後，民眾就會誤以為是這個，不過我們都已事先通知地方政府，我們有新的一個額度，有新的補貼的一個加碼，很快就會弄上去了。"],["牛委員煦庭：既然都已通知地方政府，中央的網站你就可以更新，這個不是困難的事，好不好？"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員的建議，我們會來改進。"],["牛委員煦庭：有沒有具體的時間表？就是這個一站式的服務，或者是相關的一些現在可以公開的，而且你已經確定拍板的，總要好上路吧！可以做得到嗎？"],["林部長右昌：可以，沒問題，我們一個禮拜內來做處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：這是災後的善後，所以我想這應該值得內政部好好做個思考，這是第一個問題。"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個問題，就是社區自治的問題，部長認不認同公寓大廈管理是一門專業？"],["林部長右昌：對，它是一個專業，而且還滿複雜的。"],["牛委員煦庭：非常複雜，我想您擔任部長任內應該碰到很多相關的一些疑難雜症，現在我們有哪一個單位來負責？從中央主管的角度來看。"],["林部長右昌：我想社區的部分當然是我們的國土署。"],["牛委員煦庭：然後一樣在建管的體系下面，對不對？既然部長同意它是一門專業的話，而你只放在內政部國土署建管下面的其中一個子項，你覺得這樣子的位階是足夠的嗎？"],["林部長右昌：它還是在這個體系下面……"],["牛委員煦庭：當然。"],["林部長右昌：還是在這個體系下，在地方政府的話，同樣也是在……"],["牛委員煦庭：也是在建管。"],["林部長右昌：也是建管底下。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這就是中央跟地方要一起面對的問題。但社區自治的品質其實會間接影響到救災品質，現在大家都在討論，比如說被貼上了紅單、黃單，那麼不管後面是修繕或拆除、退場也好，其實都要經過內部溝通機制。剛剛部長在答詢時提到，我們現在談論的都是私人財產的問題，所以人民溝通的品質與速度要能夠跟政府順利對接，就是災後效率一個很重要的指標！","我要跟部長反映一下，目前被貼紅黃單的有很多是社區大樓，有社區管委會的大樓，他們僅知有補助資訊，可是當對重大修繕的意見不一致時，會不會耽誤時間？會，對不對？我再往下問，如果是沒有管委會的五樓公寓或是華廈，那就更複雜了。因為連統一窗口與授權機制都沒有，當政府有機制想去善後時，要逐戶徵得同意，這是不是都會造成紅黃單建築的後續處理出現效率上的落差？再來是比較輕微的，比如外牆剝落之類的公設修繕也都無能為力，有些管委會連會都不知道怎麼開，對不對？所以說在這一次震災裡，我希望內政部藉這樣的機會重新重視公寓大廈的管理品質與管理位階，我想我們都同意這在內政部裡應該是一門專業。現在針對硬體修繕有若干補助，但針對軟體，我覺得這是一個很重要的問題，我希望軟體的支持跟輔導，也要像硬體修繕補助一樣得到相同的重視，要不然空有硬體，可是卡在大廈內部的社區自治機制而無法順利運轉，那麼中央對硬體補助再多錢最後也下不了末梢。部長對這件事情的看法是什麼？"],["林部長右昌：我完全贊成委員的觀點。不過有幾個不同的層次：第一，剛剛講到管委會的部分，管委會如果碰到問題，其實市政府有兩個系統可以進來協助，一個當然是原本建管會的都發系統；另一個其實是民政系統。第二，碰到沒有管委會的其實更麻煩，過去在歷次災害裡都有相關經驗，這不是哪個單位的問題，這時候就是縣市政府團隊要進來協助、整合災民的意見。至於每一戶個別的損害，包括民政系統裡面的村里長都可以進來幫忙。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["林部長右昌：所以是一個整體。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在當然是這樣，但我要講所謂的上行下效，如果中央從不把公寓大廈管理當成一回事，比如提升位階、找尋資源、建立一定機制的話。當然，你可以講說實務上操作的是地方，這點大家也同意，可是這樣一來大概就是原地踏步，這事情不會因此而有任何的改變。本席具體建議勻出編撥一部分的經費與人力，去做公寓大廈管理開會的輔導。如果第一時間政府沒有這樣的人力與資源時，你應該也認識很多的民間專家吧？比如擅長公寓大廈管理開會，瞭解、重視管理專業的這一群人，是不是能在部分特殊場域進場輔導，成為協助政府與災民對話溝通的橋梁及窗口？這是可行的，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：值不值得內政部努力一下？"],["林部長右昌：這個當然需要來努力，不過有兩個部分；第一個是在平時縣市政府及中央都有補助，縣市政府也有在輔導成立管委會，以及管委會的運作……"],["牛委員煦庭：部長做過地方縣市首長，我想你很清楚，公寓大廈的補助到最後就是輔導成立管委會並成立基金之後，剩下的大概就是外牆修繕，大概會流於這樣的形式。但本席今天要強調的是軟體、軟體、軟體！也就是說怎麼樣讓管委會的運作順利！這個軟體工程其實是值得內政部投入資源與心血的！如果在部長任內最後可以啟動這個好的開始，建立機制，然後慢慢討論，上行下效，中央有做，地方就會跟上來。我相信慢慢、慢慢就會被重視，形成專業，在真正發生災害及我們後面要討論的危老時，就可以發揮功能了。部長可不可以思考一下軟體工程的部分？"],["林部長右昌：沒問題，謝謝委員提醒。"],["牛委員煦庭：第三個就是都更意願的問題，我想花一點點時間來做討論。現在都更及危老推動的障礙，當然就是房價、造價、估價及共同分擔比例這些老問題，因為沒有辦法精確計算，加上景氣因素有變化等，礙於本席時間有限就不多談細節。我想請問，有沒有機會針對震災、特殊的……因為現在看起來還是只有危老。當然，貼了紅黃單後危老的程序可以加快，但這畢竟只是認定程序加快而已，在具體的補償與後續溝通上，誘因不足以讓社會有力量去推動所謂的防災型都更。這一部分內政部有沒有什麼想法？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實第一時間相關的合作單位都已經進駐災區。像在花蓮，我們與國震中心合作，他們從上週就已經開始在找每一棟大樓，就是確定紅單的大樓……"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["吳署長欣修：他們認為還有機會搶救的，所以上週就已經開始連續一直開會。我們也是希望能逐棟、逐棟協助地方政府進行，協助他們確認還有沒有修繕、補強的意願，或者確定要走都更，我們會一段一段去做。因為我們有協助的輔導單位，也希望藉著這個過程，鼓勵地方政府儘快與社區把組織架起來，這樣我們才能有機會……"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在談的有關執行的層面，當然是地方政府在執行……"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，我們的單位都已經下去了……"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道你們也下去擔任協助輔導的角色，但現在問題在於，這些紅黃單建築或危老的重建之所以速度很慢，其實是因為遊戲規則的問題，而不是他們在實際執行上不認真！大家都想推，可是民間意願很低落，因為誘因不夠，溝通有困難，對不對？所以當然藉著震災機會，內政部是不是應針對規範部分，比如都更的誘因、容積獎勵做通盤檢討？這並不是說一次就要全部適用，但能不能針對特別危險的，比如地震帶、敏感帶建物來進行防災都更的倡議與計畫？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們針對這部分本來就有相對應的機制，容我說明一下。現在的狀況是，在真正輔導災民時，其實往往不是在談這個，因為有人要走，有人要留……"],["牛委員煦庭：對……"],["吳署長欣修：因為有人要走，有人要留，所以財產處分就是一個很大的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，所以現在問題在於，前端機制不夠好的時候……"],["主席：署長，您是不是再用書面跟我們牛委員……"],["牛委員煦庭：就永遠是地震發生之後才來善後，這樣就很麻煩，而且有做不完的事。我現在講的是政策對話部分，至於機制部分，有沒有修正的空間？"],["林部長右昌：向委員報告，我們來檢討、來精進。第二個我要講的是，就現在、現況的案件來說，要先做完災民意願的調查，剛剛署長也提到，有的要走，有的要留，所以意願調查完之後，才有辦法往後面的……"],["牛委員煦庭：本席具體希望，由於這場地震有很多紅黃單，所以必須有長期的追蹤機制，當你追蹤完可能過半年或一年，回過頭來看的時候，才會知道是不是遊戲規則出了問題？我希望這件事情不要因為內政部長換人受影響，該做的事情還是要繼續做，這個題目要長期追蹤，做制度面的檢討，可以嗎？"],["林部長右昌：是，這是持續性的工作。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝部長，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員，謝謝部長的回應，謝謝署長。","繼續我們請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-11","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張智倫","黃捷","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","丁學忠","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","李坤城","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","傅崐萁","陳培瑜","林憶君","吳沛憶","羅智強","邱若華","莊瑞雄"],"page_start":139,"meetingDate":["2024-04-15"],"gazette_id":"1132801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院主計總處副主計長、原住民族委員會、行政院公共工程委員會、交通\n部、交通部觀光署、環境部、勞動部、農業部、教育部、衛生福利部、經濟部、財政部、國軍退\n除役官兵輔導委員會、金融監督管理委員會就「0403震災之災後救助、重建規劃及補助方式」及\n「從東華實驗室失火事件檢討災害防救之完備化」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132801_00017"}},"transcript":{"id":"151138","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151138","tool":"pyannote","id":"151138-pyannote"},"job_id":"kULXBPqdIhfqiwcg","queued_at":"2024-06-01 10:28:48","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-01 10:30:36","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151138"},{"time":"2024-06-01 10:30:37","msg":"downloading 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0.898}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 541.182, \"end\": 541.502, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 541.502, \"end\": 541.642, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 541.642, \"end\": 541.742, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"慢\", \"start\": 541.742, \"end\": 541.762, \"score\": 0.186}, {\"word\": \"慢\", \"start\": 541.762, \"end\": 541.862, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 541.862, \"end\": 542.623, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 542.623, \"end\": 542.843, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 542.843, \"end\": 543.023, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 543.023, \"end\": 543.243, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"效\", \"start\": 543.243, \"end\": 543.463, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 543.463, \"end\": 543.603, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"央\", \"start\": 543.603, \"end\": 543.723, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 543.723, \"end\": 543.903, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 543.903, \"end\": 544.283, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 544.283, \"end\": 544.424, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 544.424, \"end\": 544.584, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 544.584, \"end\": 544.784, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 544.784, \"end\": 544.964, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 544.964, \"end\": 544.984, \"score\": 0.078}, {\"word\": \"來\"}]}, {\"start\": 545.404, \"end\": 562.68, \"text\": \"那我相信這個東西慢慢慢慢它就會形成被重視形成一個專業在真正發生這些災害還有我們後面要討論危老的時候它就可以發揮功能啦是不是請部長回去思考一下好沒問題軟體工程的部分來做一個審法配方好第三個就是都跟議院的問題啦我們花一點點時間來做這個討論這個當然了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 545.404, \"end\": 545.524, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 545.524, \"end\": 545.644, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 545.644, \"end\": 545.844, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 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548.767, \"end\": 548.927, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 548.927, \"end\": 549.348, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 549.348, \"end\": 549.708, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 549.708, \"end\": 549.968, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 549.968, \"end\": 550.148, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 550.148, \"end\": 550.529, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 550.529, \"end\": 550.669, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 550.669, \"end\": 551.169, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"災\"}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 551.169, \"end\": 551.289, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 551.289, \"end\": 551.349, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 551.349, \"end\": 551.47, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 551.47, \"end\": 551.59, 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{\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 562.44, \"end\": 562.56, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 562.56, \"end\": 562.66, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 562.66, \"end\": 562.68, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 566.483, \"end\": 582.884, \"text\": \"現在杜甘跟韋老推動的障礙當然就是房價、造價、估價還有共同分擔比例這老問題了啦然後沒有辦法精確計算然後景氣因素又有變化那本期就因為時間有限我們就不多談細節我問一下這個我們有沒有機會啦\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 566.483, \"end\": 566.664, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"杜\", \"start\": 566.664, \"end\": 566.804, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"甘\", \"start\": 566.804, \"end\": 566.924, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 566.924, \"end\": 567.264, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"韋\"}, {\"word\": \"老\", \"start\": 567.264, \"end\": 567.485, \"score\": 0.916}, 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00:01:15,081\n第一個叫做補助資訊沒有整合第二個叫做社區自治不容易第三個叫都跟意願待提升這三件事我想這個都很值得內政部立刻來做一個討論現在內政部在你們的這個工作報告裡面有提到在針對這個災民這個善後的居住協助措施有比如說你釋出了包租貸款的房屋物件比如說你做了建築物的這個補強補助對不對你有所謂的租金補貼以及等等\n\n4\n00:01:15,521 --> 00:01:36,249\n那當然大家也會關注就是說你要這個協助都更跟危老重建的一些措施但是本席發現這些資訊跟災民有關的資訊就散佈在你內政部各個網頁裡面當然我們了解內政部是一個大部分工非常繁瑣但是好像不太好因為你看這個財政部\n\n5\n00:01:39,522 --> 00:02:00,557\n負稅署這些官網他都已經有一站式的服務機制了也就是說災民當震災出現之後我可能要了解說我稅金有哪一些減免所以我就會上財政部的網站我會上負稅署的網站他一進到網頁因為這個4月3號大地震的一個特殊的狀況所以他把這個相關事項就全部整理好叫災害協助專區\n\n6\n00:02:01,718 --> 00:02:29,649\n那照理來講這地震其實這個跟內政部是有最密切相關的所以我要請問一下部長為什麼其他部會做得好像比內政部還快你是不是要說明一下?委員會跟你報告因為這個業務狀況不太一樣財政部這個部分它都是現有的機制它都是現有機制它不需要再重新這個提報新的計畫給行政院那我們部的部分所負責的業務必須要提計畫到行政院\n\n7\n00:02:30,009 --> 00:02:51,962\n我們在上個禮拜已經送到院裡面應該是這個禮拜應該可以核定我們會在行政院正式核定之後我們當然會把整個完整不過我們已經通知縣市政府了我的意思是講他現在就是你講說譬如說財政部跟負稅組他是立刻就有了機制你內政部一定也有立刻也就有了機制嘛\n\n8\n00:02:52,182 --> 00:03:11,318\n比如說你包租貸款的房子是不是第一時間就釋出了這個你就沒有必要跟行政院再做討論嘛比如說你現在就有租屋補貼裡面相關的說明你可以做這一次的宣導所以你當然是第一時間你要先有一個一站式的服務窗口你現有的機制先放進去讓有需要的人民馬上可以得到所需的資料後面你要補上來\n\n9\n00:03:11,718 --> 00:03:34,643\n譬如說我後面針對比如說維好都跟等等有一些新的進展的時候你當然就把它安上去嘛你放放放在網站上增加它的這個項目嘛對不對委員跟你報告一下我剪短20秒就好沒關係因為不是項目的問題是因為我們針對0403震災的這個相關的一個補貼是加碼的所以怕造成民眾的一個誤會\n\n10\n00:03:35,543 --> 00:03:54,734\n因為我們現在一拖上去之後民眾就會誤以為是這個不過我們已經都事先跟通知地方政府我們有新的一個額度有新的一個補貼的這個加碼所以很快就會上去你既然都通知了地方政府那你就中央網站你就可以更新這個不是困難的事啦\n\n11\n00:03:54,974 --> 00:03:55,834\n部長認不認同公寓大廈管理是一門專業\n\n12\n00:04:22,837 --> 00:04:49,019\n對他是一個專業而且還蠻複雜的而且非常複雜的我想您擔任部長任內應該也有很多相關的一些疑難雜症是現在我們有哪一個單位負責從中央主管的角度我想社區的部分當然是我們的國土署國土署然後一樣在建管的體系下面對不對那既然部長同意他是一門專業的話你只放在你看是內政部的國土署下面的建管下面的其中一個指向你覺得這樣子的位階是足夠的嗎\n\n13\n00:04:53,147 --> 00:05:08,148\n他還是在體系下面其實在地方政府的話他同樣也是在健管這個當然就是中央跟地方一起要面對的問題但是社區自治的品質其實也會間接的影響到救災的品質\n\n14\n00:05:08,869 --> 00:05:32,297\n因為大家現在都在討論比如說我貼上了紅單黃單我不管後面是要修賽也好是要拆除退場也好它其實都有一個內部溝通的機制因為剛剛部長在答詢社會有提到我們現在在談論的都是私人財產的問題所以說人民溝通的這個品質跟速度其實跟政府要能夠順利的對接就是我們災後效率的一個很重要的一個指標但是跟部長反映一下目前被貼紅黃單很多大樓是社區\n\n15\n00:05:35,198 --> 00:05:49,606\n社區管委會這是有管委會的大樓得資格補助的資訊但是對重大修繕的意見它萬一不一致的時候會不會耽誤時間會嘛對不對那我再往下問如果它是沒有管委會的五樓公寓或是華夏\n\n16\n00:05:50,086 --> 00:06:08,651\n對不對那個更複雜啦因為你連一個統一的窗口跟一個授權的機制都沒有配合你政府有一個機制你要去善後的時候你還要逐戶的徵得同意嘛這是不是其實都會造成我們紅黃丹建築的後續處理啊出現這個效率上的一個落差那再來是比較輕微的比如說外強剝落好了\n\n17\n00:06:09,691 --> 00:06:29,404\n對於公設的修繕都無能為力有些觀光會連會都不知道怎麼開所以說在這一次的震災裡面其實我希望內政部藉這樣的機會重新重視一下公寓大廈的管理品質跟公寓大廈管理的位階我想我們都同意在內政部裡面它應該是一門專業現在我們針對的硬體修繕有若干的補助但是針對軟體\n\n18\n00:06:31,405 --> 00:06:50,776\n我覺得這是一個很重要的問題我希望軟體的支持跟輔導也要像硬體的修繕補助一樣得到一樣的重視要不然有空有硬體可是卡在大廈內部的社區自治的這個機制沒有辦法順利運轉的時候你中間硬體的補助再多錢到最後也下不了末梢部長對這件事情的看法是什麼\n\n19\n00:06:51,856 --> 00:07:16,286\n我完全贊成委員的這個觀點不過它有幾個不同的層次第一個剛剛在講你管委會的部分管委會如果碰到問題其實市政府有兩個系統可以進來協助第一個當然是原本的這個建管或者督發的這個系統另外第二個系統其實是民政的系統那第二個碰到沒有那種管委會的其實更麻煩\n\n20\n00:07:18,227 --> 00:07:37,443\n過去在歷次的災害裡面其實也都有相關的經驗因為也不是哪個單位這個時候就是縣市政府的團隊要進來協助整合災民的一個意見每一戶的各別的損害的話甚至是包括民政系統裡面的里長、村里長都可以進來幫忙\n\n21\n00:07:38,283 --> 00:07:58,651\n所以是一個整體現在當然是這樣但我要講所謂的上行下效如果我們中央從來不把公寓大廈管理當成一回事比如說提升衛街比如找尋資源建立一定的機制的話那當然你可以講說實務上操作的地方大家也同意可是這個東西大家就是原地踏步它不會因為這個事情有任何的改變本來就具體建議啦我們是\n\n22\n00:07:59,231 --> 00:08:22,223\n緣出編撥一部分的經費跟人力去做公益大廈管理開會的輔導如果說你第一時間政府沒有這樣子的人力跟資源的時候你應該也認識很多民間專家吧比如說公益大廈擅長開會瞭解眾事管理專業這一群人他是不是能夠在部分的特殊的場域來進場輔導來協助政府來做跟災民對話溝通的這樣子的一個橋樑跟窗口這個是可行的對不對是\n\n23\n00:08:23,163 --> 00:08:38,851\n那值不值得內政部努力一下我想這個當然是需要來努力不過兩個部分第一個是在平時的時候其實縣市政府都有中央也有補助縣市政府也要再輔導成立這個管委會以及管委會的這個運作部長你也做過地方縣市的時候你也清楚啦\n\n24\n00:08:39,331 --> 00:09:04,984\n這個公寓大廈的補助到了最後就是輔導成立管委會可以解凍基金之後剩下大概就是外牆修繕大概就留於這樣的形式但本期今天要強調的是軟體軟體軟體就是說怎麼樣讓管委會的運作順利這個軟體工程其實是值得內政部投入思源跟心血的如果在部長最後的任內可以開這個好頭把這個東西建立一個機制然後慢慢的討論上行下效中央有做地方就會跟上來\n\n25\n00:09:05,404 --> 00:09:22,680\n那我相信這個東西慢慢慢慢它就會形成被重視形成一個專業在真正發生這些災害還有我們後面要討論危老的時候它就可以發揮功能啦是不是請部長回去思考一下好沒問題軟體工程的部分來做一個審法配方好第三個就是都跟議院的問題啦我們花一點點時間來做這個討論這個當然了\n\n26\n00:09:26,483 --> 00:09:42,884\n現在杜甘跟韋老推動的障礙當然就是房價、造價、估價還有共同分擔比例這老問題了啦然後沒有辦法精確計算然後景氣因素又有變化那本期就因為時間有限我們就不多談細節我問一下這個我們有沒有機會啦\n\n27\n00:09:44,846 --> 00:10:02,083\n針對這種震災特殊的有沒有因為現在看起來是只有危老嘛你當然因為貼了紅黃單危老的程序可以加快但那畢竟只是認定程序加快的問題嘛顯然在具體的補償跟後續的功能上好像那個誘因不足以讓這個社會有這個力量去推動所謂的防災型的都更嘛這一部分內政部有沒有什麼想法\n\n28\n00:10:05,342 --> 00:10:19,273\n跟委員報告其實第一時間我們其實相關的這個合作的單位其實都已經有進駐到災區像在花蓮我們的這個跟國政中心的合作已經他們已經從上週就開始在\n\n29\n00:10:21,114 --> 00:10:47,951\n找每一棟大樓就是確定紅單的大樓那他們認為還有機會搶救的這個部分都已經上週開始就連續一直在開會我們也是希望主動主動來協助地方政府來進行協助他們確認他們還有沒有修繕補強的意願或是他們確定要走都更我們會一段一段去做那因為我們都有協助的輔導單位那我們也是希望藉這個過程當中\n\n30\n00:10:49,272 --> 00:11:14,273\n鼓勵地方政府就跟社區趕快把這個組織架起來這樣我們才有一個阻擾的機會你現在談執行這個層面當然是地方政府在執行我說明我們的單位已經都下去了你也下去協助輔導的角色但現在問題就是說這些紅黃丹的建築或者是一些危老的速度很慢其實是遊戲規則的問題而不是實際執行他們不認真大家想推啊可是民間意願很低落嘛因為誘因不夠啊\n\n31\n00:11:14,853 --> 00:11:33,081\n溝通有困難嗎?」對不對所以當然是藉著這震災的機會是不是內政部要針對規範的部分比如杜根的誘因啊、容積獎勵啊是不是要做一個通盤的檢討我當然不是講說要一次就全部都要適用可是有沒有針對特別危險的啦比如說地震帶、敏感帶這些東西有防災杜根的這些倡議跟計畫\n\n32\n00:11:34,882 --> 00:11:55,981\n報告就是說我們其實針對這個部分其實它本來就都有相對應的機制了我說明一下那現在的狀況就是說你到了真正災民輔導的時候其實往往出現的不是在談這個因為有人要走有人要留對啦因為有人要走有人要留所以那其實那個財產的處分就是一個很大的問題對所以現在問題就是\n\n33\n00:11:58,044 --> 00:12:11,465\n你前端的機制沒有好的時候前端的機制不夠好的時候你就永遠是地震發生之後再來善後就很麻煩做不完的事情嘛我現在講的是政策對話的部分嘛機制的部分有沒有修正的空間\n\n34\n00:12:12,426 --> 00:12:29,634\n那我有跟你報告我們來檢討啦那來緊緊但第二個我要講如果就現在的現況的這個案件的話就是要先做完調查就是災民醫院調查剛剛署長在講有的要走有的要留所以這個醫院調查完了之後才有辦法往\n\n35\n00:12:30,054 --> 00:12:31,796\n後面的分析的重重研討﹑重重研討\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t1550\t休息五分鐘謝謝謝謝主席部長有請有請部長\n16733\t43922\t是 委員好部長早安早安剛剛建兵委員有提到520之後可能有些異動但我想不管當一天和尚裝一天裝也許是在內政部長最後的這一段工作的期間我們還是有幾個非常重要的題目來做探討所以我們也沒有在區分是不是看守的一個狀態今天當然是針對4月3號地震之後的一些善後的措施提出質詢我們當然有三個問題要救教部長\n47776\t75081\t第一個叫做補助資訊沒有整合第二個叫做社區自治不容易第三個叫都跟意願待提升這三件事我想這個都很值得內政部立刻來做一個討論現在內政部在你們的這個工作報告裡面有提到在針對這個災民這個善後的居住協助措施有比如說你釋出了包租貸款的房屋物件比如說你做了建築物的這個補強補助對不對你有所謂的租金補貼以及等等\n75521\t96249\t那當然大家也會關注就是說你要這個協助都更跟危老重建的一些措施但是本席發現這些資訊跟災民有關的資訊就散佈在你內政部各個網頁裡面當然我們了解內政部是一個大部分工非常繁瑣但是好像不太好因為你看這個財政部\n99522\t120557\t負稅署這些官網他都已經有一站式的服務機制了也就是說災民當震災出現之後我可能要了解說我稅金有哪一些減免所以我就會上財政部的網站我會上負稅署的網站他一進到網頁因為這個4月3號大地震的一個特殊的狀況所以他把這個相關事項就全部整理好叫災害協助專區\n121718\t149649\t那照理來講這地震其實這個跟內政部是有最密切相關的所以我要請問一下部長為什麼其他部會做得好像比內政部還快你是不是要說明一下?委員會跟你報告因為這個業務狀況不太一樣財政部這個部分它都是現有的機制它都是現有機制它不需要再重新這個提報新的計畫給行政院那我們部的部分所負責的業務必須要提計畫到行政院\n150009\t171962\t我們在上個禮拜已經送到院裡面應該是這個禮拜應該可以核定我們會在行政院正式核定之後我們當然會把整個完整不過我們已經通知縣市政府了我的意思是講他現在就是你講說譬如說財政部跟負稅組他是立刻就有了機制你內政部一定也有立刻也就有了機制嘛\n172182\t191318\t比如說你包租貸款的房子是不是第一時間就釋出了這個你就沒有必要跟行政院再做討論嘛比如說你現在就有租屋補貼裡面相關的說明你可以做這一次的宣導所以你當然是第一時間你要先有一個一站式的服務窗口你現有的機制先放進去讓有需要的人民馬上可以得到所需的資料後面你要補上來\n191718\t214643\t譬如說我後面針對比如說維好都跟等等有一些新的進展的時候你當然就把它安上去嘛你放放放在網站上增加它的這個項目嘛對不對委員跟你報告一下我剪短20秒就好沒關係因為不是項目的問題是因為我們針對0403震災的這個相關的一個補貼是加碼的所以怕造成民眾的一個誤會\n215543\t234734\t因為我們現在一拖上去之後民眾就會誤以為是這個不過我們已經都事先跟通知地方政府我們有新的一個額度有新的一個補貼的這個加碼所以很快就會上去你既然都通知了地方政府那你就中央網站你就可以更新這個不是困難的事啦\n234974\t235834\t部長認不認同公寓大廈管理是一門專業\n262837\t289019\t對他是一個專業而且還蠻複雜的而且非常複雜的我想您擔任部長任內應該也有很多相關的一些疑難雜症是現在我們有哪一個單位負責從中央主管的角度我想社區的部分當然是我們的國土署國土署然後一樣在建管的體系下面對不對那既然部長同意他是一門專業的話你只放在你看是內政部的國土署下面的建管下面的其中一個指向你覺得這樣子的位階是足夠的嗎\n293147\t308148\t他還是在體系下面其實在地方政府的話他同樣也是在健管這個當然就是中央跟地方一起要面對的問題但是社區自治的品質其實也會間接的影響到救災的品質\n308869\t332297\t因為大家現在都在討論比如說我貼上了紅單黃單我不管後面是要修賽也好是要拆除退場也好它其實都有一個內部溝通的機制因為剛剛部長在答詢社會有提到我們現在在談論的都是私人財產的問題所以說人民溝通的這個品質跟速度其實跟政府要能夠順利的對接就是我們災後效率的一個很重要的一個指標但是跟部長反映一下目前被貼紅黃單很多大樓是社區\n335198\t349606\t社區管委會這是有管委會的大樓得資格補助的資訊但是對重大修繕的意見它萬一不一致的時候會不會耽誤時間會嘛對不對那我再往下問如果它是沒有管委會的五樓公寓或是華夏\n350086\t368651\t對不對 那個更複雜啦因為你連一個統一的窗口跟一個授權的機制都沒有配合你政府有一個機制你要去善後的時候你還要逐戶的徵得同意嘛這是不是其實都會造成我們紅黃丹建築的後續處理啊出現這個效率上的一個落差那再來是比較輕微的比如說外強剝落好了\n369691\t389404\t對於公設的修繕都無能為力有些觀光會連會都不知道怎麼開所以說在這一次的震災裡面其實我希望內政部藉這樣的機會重新重視一下公寓大廈的管理品質跟公寓大廈管理的位階我想我們都同意在內政部裡面它應該是一門專業現在我們針對的硬體修繕有若干的補助但是針對軟體\n391405\t410776\t我覺得這是一個很重要的問題我希望軟體的支持跟輔導也要像硬體的修繕補助一樣得到一樣的重視要不然有空有硬體可是卡在大廈內部的社區自治的這個機制沒有辦法順利運轉的時候你中間硬體的補助再多錢到最後也下不了末梢部長對這件事情的看法是什麼\n411856\t436286\t我完全贊成委員的這個觀點不過它有幾個不同的層次第一個剛剛在講你管委會的部分管委會如果碰到問題其實市政府有兩個系統可以進來協助第一個當然是原本的這個建管或者督發的這個系統另外第二個系統其實是民政的系統那第二個碰到沒有那種管委會的其實更麻煩\n438227\t457443\t過去在歷次的災害裡面其實也都有相關的經驗因為也不是哪個單位這個時候就是縣市政府的團隊要進來協助整合災民的一個意見每一戶的各別的損害的話甚至是包括民政系統裡面的里長、村里長都可以進來幫忙\n458283\t478651\t所以是一個整體現在當然是這樣但我要講所謂的上行下效如果我們中央從來不把公寓大廈管理當成一回事比如說提升衛街比如找尋資源建立一定的機制的話那當然你可以講說實務上操作的地方大家也同意可是這個東西大家就是原地踏步它不會因為這個事情有任何的改變本來就具體建議啦我們是\n479231\t502223\t緣出編撥一部分的經費跟人力去做公益大廈管理開會的輔導如果說你第一時間政府沒有這樣子的人力跟資源的時候你應該也認識很多民間專家吧比如說公益大廈擅長開會瞭解眾事管理專業這一群人他是不是能夠在部分的特殊的場域來進場輔導來協助政府來做跟災民對話溝通的這樣子的一個橋樑跟窗口這個是可行的對不對是\n503163\t518851\t那值不值得內政部努力一下我想這個當然是需要來努力不過兩個部分第一個是在平時的時候其實縣市政府都有中央也有補助縣市政府也要再輔導成立這個管委會以及管委會的這個運作部長你也做過地方縣市的時候你也清楚啦\n519331\t544984\t這個公寓大廈的補助到了最後就是輔導成立管委會可以解凍基金之後剩下大概就是外牆修繕大概就留於這樣的形式但本期今天要強調的是軟體軟體軟體就是說怎麼樣讓管委會的運作順利這個軟體工程其實是值得內政部投入思源跟心血的如果在部長最後的任內可以開這個好頭把這個東西建立一個機制然後慢慢的討論上行下效中央有做地方就會跟上來\n545404\t562680\t那我相信這個東西慢慢慢慢它就會形成被重視形成一個專業在真正發生這些災害還有我們後面要討論危老的時候它就可以發揮功能啦是不是請部長回去思考一下好沒問題軟體工程的部分來做一個審法配方好第三個就是都跟議院的問題啦我們花一點點時間來做這個討論這個當然了\n566483\t582884\t現在杜甘跟韋老推動的障礙當然就是房價、造價、估價還有共同分擔比例這老問題了啦然後沒有辦法精確計算然後景氣因素又有變化那本期就因為時間有限我們就不多談細節我問一下這個我們有沒有機會啦\n584846\t602083\t針對這種震災特殊的有沒有因為現在看起來是只有危老嘛你當然因為貼了紅黃單危老的程序可以加快但那畢竟只是認定程序加快的問題嘛顯然在具體的補償跟後續的功能上好像那個誘因不足以讓這個社會有這個力量去推動所謂的防災型的都更嘛這一部分內政部有沒有什麼想法\n605342\t619273\t跟委員報告其實第一時間我們其實相關的這個合作的單位其實都已經有進駐到災區像在花蓮我們的這個跟國政中心的合作已經他們已經從上週就開始在\n621114\t647951\t找每一棟大樓就是確定紅單的大樓那他們認為還有機會搶救的這個部分都已經上週開始就連續一直在開會我們也是希望主動主動來協助地方政府來進行協助他們確認他們還有沒有修繕補強的意願或是他們確定要走都更我們會一段一段去做那因為我們都有協助的輔導單位那我們也是希望藉這個過程當中\n649272\t674273\t鼓勵地方政府就跟社區趕快把這個組織架起來這樣我們才有一個阻擾的機會你現在談執行這個層面當然是地方政府在執行我說明我們的單位已經都下去了你也下去協助輔導的角色但現在問題就是說這些紅黃丹的建築或者是一些危老的速度很慢其實是遊戲規則的問題而不是實際執行他們不認真大家想推啊可是民間意願很低落嘛因為誘因不夠啊\n674853\t693081\t溝通有困難嗎?」對不對所以當然是藉著這震災的機會是不是內政部要針對規範的部分比如杜根的誘因啊、容積獎勵啊是不是要做一個通盤的檢討我當然不是講說要一次就全部都要適用可是有沒有針對特別危險的啦比如說地震帶、敏感帶這些東西有防災杜根的這些倡議跟計畫\n694882\t715981\t報告就是說我們其實針對這個部分其實它本來就都有相對應的機制了我說明一下那現在的狀況就是說你到了真正災民輔導的時候其實往往出現的不是在談這個因為有人要走有人要留對啦因為有人要走有人要留所以那其實那個財產的處分就是一個很大的問題對所以現在問題就是\n718044\t731465\t你前端的機制沒有好的時候前端的機制不夠好的時候你就永遠是地震發生之後再來善後就很麻煩做不完的事情嘛我現在講的是政策對話的部分嘛機制的部分有沒有修正的空間\n732426\t749634\t那我有跟你報告我們來檢討啦那來緊緊但第二個我要講如果就現在的現況的這個案件的話就是要先做完調查就是災民醫院調查剛剛署長在講有的要走有的要留所以這個醫院調查完了之後才有辦法往\n750054\t751796\t後面的分析的重重研討﹑重重研討\n","txt":"休息五分鐘謝謝謝謝主席部長有請有請部長\n是 委員好部長早安早安剛剛建兵委員有提到520之後可能有些異動但我想不管當一天和尚裝一天裝也許是在內政部長最後的這一段工作的期間我們還是有幾個非常重要的題目來做探討所以我們也沒有在區分是不是看守的一個狀態今天當然是針對4月3號地震之後的一些善後的措施提出質詢我們當然有三個問題要救教部長\n第一個叫做補助資訊沒有整合第二個叫做社區自治不容易第三個叫都跟意願待提升這三件事我想這個都很值得內政部立刻來做一個討論現在內政部在你們的這個工作報告裡面有提到在針對這個災民這個善後的居住協助措施有比如說你釋出了包租貸款的房屋物件比如說你做了建築物的這個補強補助對不對你有所謂的租金補貼以及等等\n那當然大家也會關注就是說你要這個協助都更跟危老重建的一些措施但是本席發現這些資訊跟災民有關的資訊就散佈在你內政部各個網頁裡面當然我們了解內政部是一個大部分工非常繁瑣但是好像不太好因為你看這個財政部\n負稅署這些官網他都已經有一站式的服務機制了也就是說災民當震災出現之後我可能要了解說我稅金有哪一些減免所以我就會上財政部的網站我會上負稅署的網站他一進到網頁因為這個4月3號大地震的一個特殊的狀況所以他把這個相關事項就全部整理好叫災害協助專區\n那照理來講這地震其實這個跟內政部是有最密切相關的所以我要請問一下部長為什麼其他部會做得好像比內政部還快你是不是要說明一下?委員會跟你報告因為這個業務狀況不太一樣財政部這個部分它都是現有的機制它都是現有機制它不需要再重新這個提報新的計畫給行政院那我們部的部分所負責的業務必須要提計畫到行政院\n我們在上個禮拜已經送到院裡面應該是這個禮拜應該可以核定我們會在行政院正式核定之後我們當然會把整個完整不過我們已經通知縣市政府了我的意思是講他現在就是你講說譬如說財政部跟負稅組他是立刻就有了機制你內政部一定也有立刻也就有了機制嘛\n比如說你包租貸款的房子是不是第一時間就釋出了這個你就沒有必要跟行政院再做討論嘛比如說你現在就有租屋補貼裡面相關的說明你可以做這一次的宣導所以你當然是第一時間你要先有一個一站式的服務窗口你現有的機制先放進去讓有需要的人民馬上可以得到所需的資料後面你要補上來\n譬如說我後面針對比如說維好都跟等等有一些新的進展的時候你當然就把它安上去嘛你放放放在網站上增加它的這個項目嘛對不對委員跟你報告一下我剪短20秒就好沒關係因為不是項目的問題是因為我們針對0403震災的這個相關的一個補貼是加碼的所以怕造成民眾的一個誤會\n因為我們現在一拖上去之後民眾就會誤以為是這個不過我們已經都事先跟通知地方政府我們有新的一個額度有新的一個補貼的這個加碼所以很快就會上去你既然都通知了地方政府那你就中央網站你就可以更新這個不是困難的事啦\n部長認不認同公寓大廈管理是一門專業\n對他是一個專業而且還蠻複雜的而且非常複雜的我想您擔任部長任內應該也有很多相關的一些疑難雜症是現在我們有哪一個單位負責從中央主管的角度我想社區的部分當然是我們的國土署國土署然後一樣在建管的體系下面對不對那既然部長同意他是一門專業的話你只放在你看是內政部的國土署下面的建管下面的其中一個指向你覺得這樣子的位階是足夠的嗎\n他還是在體系下面其實在地方政府的話他同樣也是在健管這個當然就是中央跟地方一起要面對的問題但是社區自治的品質其實也會間接的影響到救災的品質\n因為大家現在都在討論比如說我貼上了紅單黃單我不管後面是要修賽也好是要拆除退場也好它其實都有一個內部溝通的機制因為剛剛部長在答詢社會有提到我們現在在談論的都是私人財產的問題所以說人民溝通的這個品質跟速度其實跟政府要能夠順利的對接就是我們災後效率的一個很重要的一個指標但是跟部長反映一下目前被貼紅黃單很多大樓是社區\n社區管委會這是有管委會的大樓得資格補助的資訊但是對重大修繕的意見它萬一不一致的時候會不會耽誤時間會嘛對不對那我再往下問如果它是沒有管委會的五樓公寓或是華夏\n對不對 那個更複雜啦因為你連一個統一的窗口跟一個授權的機制都沒有配合你政府有一個機制你要去善後的時候你還要逐戶的徵得同意嘛這是不是其實都會造成我們紅黃丹建築的後續處理啊出現這個效率上的一個落差那再來是比較輕微的比如說外強剝落好了\n對於公設的修繕都無能為力有些觀光會連會都不知道怎麼開所以說在這一次的震災裡面其實我希望內政部藉這樣的機會重新重視一下公寓大廈的管理品質跟公寓大廈管理的位階我想我們都同意在內政部裡面它應該是一門專業現在我們針對的硬體修繕有若干的補助但是針對軟體\n我覺得這是一個很重要的問題我希望軟體的支持跟輔導也要像硬體的修繕補助一樣得到一樣的重視要不然有空有硬體可是卡在大廈內部的社區自治的這個機制沒有辦法順利運轉的時候你中間硬體的補助再多錢到最後也下不了末梢部長對這件事情的看法是什麼\n我完全贊成委員的這個觀點不過它有幾個不同的層次第一個剛剛在講你管委會的部分管委會如果碰到問題其實市政府有兩個系統可以進來協助第一個當然是原本的這個建管或者督發的這個系統另外第二個系統其實是民政的系統那第二個碰到沒有那種管委會的其實更麻煩\n過去在歷次的災害裡面其實也都有相關的經驗因為也不是哪個單位這個時候就是縣市政府的團隊要進來協助整合災民的一個意見每一戶的各別的損害的話甚至是包括民政系統裡面的里長、村里長都可以進來幫忙\n所以是一個整體現在當然是這樣但我要講所謂的上行下效如果我們中央從來不把公寓大廈管理當成一回事比如說提升衛街比如找尋資源建立一定的機制的話那當然你可以講說實務上操作的地方大家也同意可是這個東西大家就是原地踏步它不會因為這個事情有任何的改變本來就具體建議啦我們是\n緣出編撥一部分的經費跟人力去做公益大廈管理開會的輔導如果說你第一時間政府沒有這樣子的人力跟資源的時候你應該也認識很多民間專家吧比如說公益大廈擅長開會瞭解眾事管理專業這一群人他是不是能夠在部分的特殊的場域來進場輔導來協助政府來做跟災民對話溝通的這樣子的一個橋樑跟窗口這個是可行的對不對是\n那值不值得內政部努力一下我想這個當然是需要來努力不過兩個部分第一個是在平時的時候其實縣市政府都有中央也有補助縣市政府也要再輔導成立這個管委會以及管委會的這個運作部長你也做過地方縣市的時候你也清楚啦\n這個公寓大廈的補助到了最後就是輔導成立管委會可以解凍基金之後剩下大概就是外牆修繕大概就留於這樣的形式但本期今天要強調的是軟體軟體軟體就是說怎麼樣讓管委會的運作順利這個軟體工程其實是值得內政部投入思源跟心血的如果在部長最後的任內可以開這個好頭把這個東西建立一個機制然後慢慢的討論上行下效中央有做地方就會跟上來\n那我相信這個東西慢慢慢慢它就會形成被重視形成一個專業在真正發生這些災害還有我們後面要討論危老的時候它就可以發揮功能啦是不是請部長回去思考一下好沒問題軟體工程的部分來做一個審法配方好第三個就是都跟議院的問題啦我們花一點點時間來做這個討論這個當然了\n現在杜甘跟韋老推動的障礙當然就是房價、造價、估價還有共同分擔比例這老問題了啦然後沒有辦法精確計算然後景氣因素又有變化那本期就因為時間有限我們就不多談細節我問一下這個我們有沒有機會啦\n針對這種震災特殊的有沒有因為現在看起來是只有危老嘛你當然因為貼了紅黃單危老的程序可以加快但那畢竟只是認定程序加快的問題嘛顯然在具體的補償跟後續的功能上好像那個誘因不足以讓這個社會有這個力量去推動所謂的防災型的都更嘛這一部分內政部有沒有什麼想法\n跟委員報告其實第一時間我們其實相關的這個合作的單位其實都已經有進駐到災區像在花蓮我們的這個跟國政中心的合作已經他們已經從上週就開始在\n找每一棟大樓就是確定紅單的大樓那他們認為還有機會搶救的這個部分都已經上週開始就連續一直在開會我們也是希望主動主動來協助地方政府來進行協助他們確認他們還有沒有修繕補強的意願或是他們確定要走都更我們會一段一段去做那因為我們都有協助的輔導單位那我們也是希望藉這個過程當中\n鼓勵地方政府就跟社區趕快把這個組織架起來這樣我們才有一個阻擾的機會你現在談執行這個層面當然是地方政府在執行我說明我們的單位已經都下去了你也下去協助輔導的角色但現在問題就是說這些紅黃丹的建築或者是一些危老的速度很慢其實是遊戲規則的問題而不是實際執行他們不認真大家想推啊可是民間意願很低落嘛因為誘因不夠啊\n溝通有困難嗎?」對不對所以當然是藉著這震災的機會是不是內政部要針對規範的部分比如杜根的誘因啊、容積獎勵啊是不是要做一個通盤的檢討我當然不是講說要一次就全部都要適用可是有沒有針對特別危險的啦比如說地震帶、敏感帶這些東西有防災杜根的這些倡議跟計畫\n報告就是說我們其實針對這個部分其實它本來就都有相對應的機制了我說明一下那現在的狀況就是說你到了真正災民輔導的時候其實往往出現的不是在談這個因為有人要走有人要留對啦因為有人要走有人要留所以那其實那個財產的處分就是一個很大的問題對所以現在問題就是\n你前端的機制沒有好的時候前端的機制不夠好的時候你就永遠是地震發生之後再來善後就很麻煩做不完的事情嘛我現在講的是政策對話的部分嘛機制的部分有沒有修正的空間\n那我有跟你報告我們來檢討啦那來緊緊但第二個我要講如果就現在的現況的這個案件的話就是要先做完調查就是災民醫院調查剛剛署長在講有的要走有的要留所以這個醫院調查完了之後才有辦法往\n後面的分析的重重研討﹑重重研討\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:01.550\n休息五分鐘謝謝謝謝主席部長有請有請部長\n\n00:16.733 --> 00:43.922\n是委員好部長早安早安剛剛建兵委員有提到520之後可能有些異動但我想不管當一天和尚裝一天裝也許是在內政部長最後的這一段工作的期間我們還是有幾個非常重要的題目來做探討所以我們也沒有在區分是不是看守的一個狀態今天當然是針對4月3號地震之後的一些善後的措施提出質詢我們當然有三個問題要救教部長\n\n00:47.776 --> 01:15.081\n第一個叫做補助資訊沒有整合第二個叫做社區自治不容易第三個叫都跟意願待提升這三件事我想這個都很值得內政部立刻來做一個討論現在內政部在你們的這個工作報告裡面有提到在針對這個災民這個善後的居住協助措施有比如說你釋出了包租貸款的房屋物件比如說你做了建築物的這個補強補助對不對你有所謂的租金補貼以及等等\n\n01:15.521 --> 01:36.249\n那當然大家也會關注就是說你要這個協助都更跟危老重建的一些措施但是本席發現這些資訊跟災民有關的資訊就散佈在你內政部各個網頁裡面當然我們了解內政部是一個大部分工非常繁瑣但是好像不太好因為你看這個財政部\n\n01:39.522 --> 02:00.557\n負稅署這些官網他都已經有一站式的服務機制了也就是說災民當震災出現之後我可能要了解說我稅金有哪一些減免所以我就會上財政部的網站我會上負稅署的網站他一進到網頁因為這個4月3號大地震的一個特殊的狀況所以他把這個相關事項就全部整理好叫災害協助專區\n\n02:01.718 --> 02:29.649\n那照理來講這地震其實這個跟內政部是有最密切相關的所以我要請問一下部長為什麼其他部會做得好像比內政部還快你是不是要說明一下?委員會跟你報告因為這個業務狀況不太一樣財政部這個部分它都是現有的機制它都是現有機制它不需要再重新這個提報新的計畫給行政院那我們部的部分所負責的業務必須要提計畫到行政院\n\n02:30.009 --> 02:51.962\n我們在上個禮拜已經送到院裡面應該是這個禮拜應該可以核定我們會在行政院正式核定之後我們當然會把整個完整不過我們已經通知縣市政府了我的意思是講他現在就是你講說譬如說財政部跟負稅組他是立刻就有了機制你內政部一定也有立刻也就有了機制嘛\n\n02:52.182 --> 03:11.318\n比如說你包租貸款的房子是不是第一時間就釋出了這個你就沒有必要跟行政院再做討論嘛比如說你現在就有租屋補貼裡面相關的說明你可以做這一次的宣導所以你當然是第一時間你要先有一個一站式的服務窗口你現有的機制先放進去讓有需要的人民馬上可以得到所需的資料後面你要補上來\n\n03:11.718 --> 03:34.643\n譬如說我後面針對比如說維好都跟等等有一些新的進展的時候你當然就把它安上去嘛你放放放在網站上增加它的這個項目嘛對不對委員跟你報告一下我剪短20秒就好沒關係因為不是項目的問題是因為我們針對0403震災的這個相關的一個補貼是加碼的所以怕造成民眾的一個誤會\n\n03:35.543 --> 03:54.734\n因為我們現在一拖上去之後民眾就會誤以為是這個不過我們已經都事先跟通知地方政府我們有新的一個額度有新的一個補貼的這個加碼所以很快就會上去你既然都通知了地方政府那你就中央網站你就可以更新這個不是困難的事啦\n\n03:54.974 --> 03:55.834\n部長認不認同公寓大廈管理是一門專業\n\n04:22.837 --> 04:49.019\n對他是一個專業而且還蠻複雜的而且非常複雜的我想您擔任部長任內應該也有很多相關的一些疑難雜症是現在我們有哪一個單位負責從中央主管的角度我想社區的部分當然是我們的國土署國土署然後一樣在建管的體系下面對不對那既然部長同意他是一門專業的話你只放在你看是內政部的國土署下面的建管下面的其中一個指向你覺得這樣子的位階是足夠的嗎\n\n04:53.147 --> 05:08.148\n他還是在體系下面其實在地方政府的話他同樣也是在健管這個當然就是中央跟地方一起要面對的問題但是社區自治的品質其實也會間接的影響到救災的品質\n\n05:08.869 --> 05:32.297\n因為大家現在都在討論比如說我貼上了紅單黃單我不管後面是要修賽也好是要拆除退場也好它其實都有一個內部溝通的機制因為剛剛部長在答詢社會有提到我們現在在談論的都是私人財產的問題所以說人民溝通的這個品質跟速度其實跟政府要能夠順利的對接就是我們災後效率的一個很重要的一個指標但是跟部長反映一下目前被貼紅黃單很多大樓是社區\n\n05:35.198 --> 05:49.606\n社區管委會這是有管委會的大樓得資格補助的資訊但是對重大修繕的意見它萬一不一致的時候會不會耽誤時間會嘛對不對那我再往下問如果它是沒有管委會的五樓公寓或是華夏\n\n05:50.086 --> 06:08.651\n對不對那個更複雜啦因為你連一個統一的窗口跟一個授權的機制都沒有配合你政府有一個機制你要去善後的時候你還要逐戶的徵得同意嘛這是不是其實都會造成我們紅黃丹建築的後續處理啊出現這個效率上的一個落差那再來是比較輕微的比如說外強剝落好了\n\n06:09.691 --> 06:29.404\n對於公設的修繕都無能為力有些觀光會連會都不知道怎麼開所以說在這一次的震災裡面其實我希望內政部藉這樣的機會重新重視一下公寓大廈的管理品質跟公寓大廈管理的位階我想我們都同意在內政部裡面它應該是一門專業現在我們針對的硬體修繕有若干的補助但是針對軟體\n\n06:31.405 --> 06:50.776\n我覺得這是一個很重要的問題我希望軟體的支持跟輔導也要像硬體的修繕補助一樣得到一樣的重視要不然有空有硬體可是卡在大廈內部的社區自治的這個機制沒有辦法順利運轉的時候你中間硬體的補助再多錢到最後也下不了末梢部長對這件事情的看法是什麼\n\n06:51.856 --> 07:16.286\n我完全贊成委員的這個觀點不過它有幾個不同的層次第一個剛剛在講你管委會的部分管委會如果碰到問題其實市政府有兩個系統可以進來協助第一個當然是原本的這個建管或者督發的這個系統另外第二個系統其實是民政的系統那第二個碰到沒有那種管委會的其實更麻煩\n\n07:18.227 --> 07:37.443\n過去在歷次的災害裡面其實也都有相關的經驗因為也不是哪個單位這個時候就是縣市政府的團隊要進來協助整合災民的一個意見每一戶的各別的損害的話甚至是包括民政系統裡面的里長、村里長都可以進來幫忙\n\n07:38.283 --> 07:58.651\n所以是一個整體現在當然是這樣但我要講所謂的上行下效如果我們中央從來不把公寓大廈管理當成一回事比如說提升衛街比如找尋資源建立一定的機制的話那當然你可以講說實務上操作的地方大家也同意可是這個東西大家就是原地踏步它不會因為這個事情有任何的改變本來就具體建議啦我們是\n\n07:59.231 --> 08:22.223\n緣出編撥一部分的經費跟人力去做公益大廈管理開會的輔導如果說你第一時間政府沒有這樣子的人力跟資源的時候你應該也認識很多民間專家吧比如說公益大廈擅長開會瞭解眾事管理專業這一群人他是不是能夠在部分的特殊的場域來進場輔導來協助政府來做跟災民對話溝通的這樣子的一個橋樑跟窗口這個是可行的對不對是\n\n08:23.163 --> 08:38.851\n那值不值得內政部努力一下我想這個當然是需要來努力不過兩個部分第一個是在平時的時候其實縣市政府都有中央也有補助縣市政府也要再輔導成立這個管委會以及管委會的這個運作部長你也做過地方縣市的時候你也清楚啦\n\n08:39.331 --> 09:04.984\n這個公寓大廈的補助到了最後就是輔導成立管委會可以解凍基金之後剩下大概就是外牆修繕大概就留於這樣的形式但本期今天要強調的是軟體軟體軟體就是說怎麼樣讓管委會的運作順利這個軟體工程其實是值得內政部投入思源跟心血的如果在部長最後的任內可以開這個好頭把這個東西建立一個機制然後慢慢的討論上行下效中央有做地方就會跟上來\n\n09:05.404 --> 09:22.680\n那我相信這個東西慢慢慢慢它就會形成被重視形成一個專業在真正發生這些災害還有我們後面要討論危老的時候它就可以發揮功能啦是不是請部長回去思考一下好沒問題軟體工程的部分來做一個審法配方好第三個就是都跟議院的問題啦我們花一點點時間來做這個討論這個當然了\n\n09:26.483 --> 09:42.884\n現在杜甘跟韋老推動的障礙當然就是房價、造價、估價還有共同分擔比例這老問題了啦然後沒有辦法精確計算然後景氣因素又有變化那本期就因為時間有限我們就不多談細節我問一下這個我們有沒有機會啦\n\n09:44.846 --> 10:02.083\n針對這種震災特殊的有沒有因為現在看起來是只有危老嘛你當然因為貼了紅黃單危老的程序可以加快但那畢竟只是認定程序加快的問題嘛顯然在具體的補償跟後續的功能上好像那個誘因不足以讓這個社會有這個力量去推動所謂的防災型的都更嘛這一部分內政部有沒有什麼想法\n\n10:05.342 --> 10:19.273\n跟委員報告其實第一時間我們其實相關的這個合作的單位其實都已經有進駐到災區像在花蓮我們的這個跟國政中心的合作已經他們已經從上週就開始在\n\n10:21.114 --> 10:47.951\n找每一棟大樓就是確定紅單的大樓那他們認為還有機會搶救的這個部分都已經上週開始就連續一直在開會我們也是希望主動主動來協助地方政府來進行協助他們確認他們還有沒有修繕補強的意願或是他們確定要走都更我們會一段一段去做那因為我們都有協助的輔導單位那我們也是希望藉這個過程當中\n\n10:49.272 --> 11:14.273\n鼓勵地方政府就跟社區趕快把這個組織架起來這樣我們才有一個阻擾的機會你現在談執行這個層面當然是地方政府在執行我說明我們的單位已經都下去了你也下去協助輔導的角色但現在問題就是說這些紅黃丹的建築或者是一些危老的速度很慢其實是遊戲規則的問題而不是實際執行他們不認真大家想推啊可是民間意願很低落嘛因為誘因不夠啊\n\n11:14.853 --> 11:33.081\n溝通有困難嗎?」對不對所以當然是藉著這震災的機會是不是內政部要針對規範的部分比如杜根的誘因啊、容積獎勵啊是不是要做一個通盤的檢討我當然不是講說要一次就全部都要適用可是有沒有針對特別危險的啦比如說地震帶、敏感帶這些東西有防災杜根的這些倡議跟計畫\n\n11:34.882 --> 11:55.981\n報告就是說我們其實針對這個部分其實它本來就都有相對應的機制了我說明一下那現在的狀況就是說你到了真正災民輔導的時候其實往往出現的不是在談這個因為有人要走有人要留對啦因為有人要走有人要留所以那其實那個財產的處分就是一個很大的問題對所以現在問題就是\n\n11:58.044 --> 12:11.465\n你前端的機制沒有好的時候前端的機制不夠好的時候你就永遠是地震發生之後再來善後就很麻煩做不完的事情嘛我現在講的是政策對話的部分嘛機制的部分有沒有修正的空間\n\n12:12.426 --> 12:29.634\n那我有跟你報告我們來檢討啦那來緊緊但第二個我要講如果就現在的現況的這個案件的話就是要先做完調查就是災民醫院調查剛剛署長在講有的要走有的要留所以這個醫院調查完了之後才有辦法往\n\n12:30.054 --> 12:31.796\n後面的分析的重重研討﹑重重研討\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":1.55,"text":"休息五分鐘謝謝謝謝主席部長有請有請部長"},{"start":16.733,"end":43.922,"text":"是 委員好部長早安早安剛剛建兵委員有提到520之後可能有些異動但我想不管當一天和尚裝一天裝也許是在內政部長最後的這一段工作的期間我們還是有幾個非常重要的題目來做探討所以我們也沒有在區分是不是看守的一個狀態今天當然是針對4月3號地震之後的一些善後的措施提出質詢我們當然有三個問題要救教部長"},{"start":47.776,"end":75.081,"text":"第一個叫做補助資訊沒有整合第二個叫做社區自治不容易第三個叫都跟意願待提升這三件事我想這個都很值得內政部立刻來做一個討論現在內政部在你們的這個工作報告裡面有提到在針對這個災民這個善後的居住協助措施有比如說你釋出了包租貸款的房屋物件比如說你做了建築物的這個補強補助對不對你有所謂的租金補貼以及等等"},{"start":75.521,"end":96.249,"text":"那當然大家也會關注就是說你要這個協助都更跟危老重建的一些措施但是本席發現這些資訊跟災民有關的資訊就散佈在你內政部各個網頁裡面當然我們了解內政部是一個大部分工非常繁瑣但是好像不太好因為你看這個財政部"},{"start":99.522,"end":120.557,"text":"負稅署這些官網他都已經有一站式的服務機制了也就是說災民當震災出現之後我可能要了解說我稅金有哪一些減免所以我就會上財政部的網站我會上負稅署的網站他一進到網頁因為這個4月3號大地震的一個特殊的狀況所以他把這個相關事項就全部整理好叫災害協助專區"},{"start":121.718,"end":149.649,"text":"那照理來講這地震其實這個跟內政部是有最密切相關的所以我要請問一下部長為什麼其他部會做得好像比內政部還快你是不是要說明一下?委員會跟你報告因為這個業務狀況不太一樣財政部這個部分它都是現有的機制它都是現有機制它不需要再重新這個提報新的計畫給行政院那我們部的部分所負責的業務必須要提計畫到行政院"},{"start":150.009,"end":171.962,"text":"我們在上個禮拜已經送到院裡面應該是這個禮拜應該可以核定我們會在行政院正式核定之後我們當然會把整個完整不過我們已經通知縣市政府了我的意思是講他現在就是你講說譬如說財政部跟負稅組他是立刻就有了機制你內政部一定也有立刻也就有了機制嘛"},{"start":172.182,"end":191.318,"text":"比如說你包租貸款的房子是不是第一時間就釋出了這個你就沒有必要跟行政院再做討論嘛比如說你現在就有租屋補貼裡面相關的說明你可以做這一次的宣導所以你當然是第一時間你要先有一個一站式的服務窗口你現有的機制先放進去讓有需要的人民馬上可以得到所需的資料後面你要補上來"},{"start":191.718,"end":214.643,"text":"譬如說我後面針對比如說維好都跟等等有一些新的進展的時候你當然就把它安上去嘛你放放放在網站上增加它的這個項目嘛對不對委員跟你報告一下我剪短20秒就好沒關係因為不是項目的問題是因為我們針對0403震災的這個相關的一個補貼是加碼的所以怕造成民眾的一個誤會"},{"start":215.543,"end":234.734,"text":"因為我們現在一拖上去之後民眾就會誤以為是這個不過我們已經都事先跟通知地方政府我們有新的一個額度有新的一個補貼的這個加碼所以很快就會上去你既然都通知了地方政府那你就中央網站你就可以更新這個不是困難的事啦"},{"start":234.974,"end":235.834,"text":"部長認不認同公寓大廈管理是一門專業"},{"start":262.837,"end":289.019,"text":"對他是一個專業而且還蠻複雜的而且非常複雜的我想您擔任部長任內應該也有很多相關的一些疑難雜症是現在我們有哪一個單位負責從中央主管的角度我想社區的部分當然是我們的國土署國土署然後一樣在建管的體系下面對不對那既然部長同意他是一門專業的話你只放在你看是內政部的國土署下面的建管下面的其中一個指向你覺得這樣子的位階是足夠的嗎"},{"start":293.147,"end":308.148,"text":"他還是在體系下面其實在地方政府的話他同樣也是在健管這個當然就是中央跟地方一起要面對的問題但是社區自治的品質其實也會間接的影響到救災的品質"},{"start":308.869,"end":332.297,"text":"因為大家現在都在討論比如說我貼上了紅單黃單我不管後面是要修賽也好是要拆除退場也好它其實都有一個內部溝通的機制因為剛剛部長在答詢社會有提到我們現在在談論的都是私人財產的問題所以說人民溝通的這個品質跟速度其實跟政府要能夠順利的對接就是我們災後效率的一個很重要的一個指標但是跟部長反映一下目前被貼紅黃單很多大樓是社區"},{"start":335.198,"end":349.606,"text":"社區管委會這是有管委會的大樓得資格補助的資訊但是對重大修繕的意見它萬一不一致的時候會不會耽誤時間會嘛對不對那我再往下問如果它是沒有管委會的五樓公寓或是華夏"},{"start":350.086,"end":368.651,"text":"對不對 那個更複雜啦因為你連一個統一的窗口跟一個授權的機制都沒有配合你政府有一個機制你要去善後的時候你還要逐戶的徵得同意嘛這是不是其實都會造成我們紅黃丹建築的後續處理啊出現這個效率上的一個落差那再來是比較輕微的比如說外強剝落好了"},{"start":369.691,"end":389.404,"text":"對於公設的修繕都無能為力有些觀光會連會都不知道怎麼開所以說在這一次的震災裡面其實我希望內政部藉這樣的機會重新重視一下公寓大廈的管理品質跟公寓大廈管理的位階我想我們都同意在內政部裡面它應該是一門專業現在我們針對的硬體修繕有若干的補助但是針對軟體"},{"start":391.405,"end":410.776,"text":"我覺得這是一個很重要的問題我希望軟體的支持跟輔導也要像硬體的修繕補助一樣得到一樣的重視要不然有空有硬體可是卡在大廈內部的社區自治的這個機制沒有辦法順利運轉的時候你中間硬體的補助再多錢到最後也下不了末梢部長對這件事情的看法是什麼"},{"start":411.856,"end":436.286,"text":"我完全贊成委員的這個觀點不過它有幾個不同的層次第一個剛剛在講你管委會的部分管委會如果碰到問題其實市政府有兩個系統可以進來協助第一個當然是原本的這個建管或者督發的這個系統另外第二個系統其實是民政的系統那第二個碰到沒有那種管委會的其實更麻煩"},{"start":438.227,"end":457.443,"text":"過去在歷次的災害裡面其實也都有相關的經驗因為也不是哪個單位這個時候就是縣市政府的團隊要進來協助整合災民的一個意見每一戶的各別的損害的話甚至是包括民政系統裡面的里長、村里長都可以進來幫忙"},{"start":458.283,"end":478.651,"text":"所以是一個整體現在當然是這樣但我要講所謂的上行下效如果我們中央從來不把公寓大廈管理當成一回事比如說提升衛街比如找尋資源建立一定的機制的話那當然你可以講說實務上操作的地方大家也同意可是這個東西大家就是原地踏步它不會因為這個事情有任何的改變本來就具體建議啦我們是"},{"start":479.231,"end":502.223,"text":"緣出編撥一部分的經費跟人力去做公益大廈管理開會的輔導如果說你第一時間政府沒有這樣子的人力跟資源的時候你應該也認識很多民間專家吧比如說公益大廈擅長開會瞭解眾事管理專業這一群人他是不是能夠在部分的特殊的場域來進場輔導來協助政府來做跟災民對話溝通的這樣子的一個橋樑跟窗口這個是可行的對不對是"},{"start":503.163,"end":518.851,"text":"那值不值得內政部努力一下我想這個當然是需要來努力不過兩個部分第一個是在平時的時候其實縣市政府都有中央也有補助縣市政府也要再輔導成立這個管委會以及管委會的這個運作部長你也做過地方縣市的時候你也清楚啦"},{"start":519.331,"end":544.984,"text":"這個公寓大廈的補助到了最後就是輔導成立管委會可以解凍基金之後剩下大概就是外牆修繕大概就留於這樣的形式但本期今天要強調的是軟體軟體軟體就是說怎麼樣讓管委會的運作順利這個軟體工程其實是值得內政部投入思源跟心血的如果在部長最後的任內可以開這個好頭把這個東西建立一個機制然後慢慢的討論上行下效中央有做地方就會跟上來"},{"start":545.404,"end":562.68,"text":"那我相信這個東西慢慢慢慢它就會形成被重視形成一個專業在真正發生這些災害還有我們後面要討論危老的時候它就可以發揮功能啦是不是請部長回去思考一下好沒問題軟體工程的部分來做一個審法配方好第三個就是都跟議院的問題啦我們花一點點時間來做這個討論這個當然了"},{"start":566.483,"end":582.884,"text":"現在杜甘跟韋老推動的障礙當然就是房價、造價、估價還有共同分擔比例這老問題了啦然後沒有辦法精確計算然後景氣因素又有變化那本期就因為時間有限我們就不多談細節我問一下這個我們有沒有機會啦"},{"start":584.846,"end":602.083,"text":"針對這種震災特殊的有沒有因為現在看起來是只有危老嘛你當然因為貼了紅黃單危老的程序可以加快但那畢竟只是認定程序加快的問題嘛顯然在具體的補償跟後續的功能上好像那個誘因不足以讓這個社會有這個力量去推動所謂的防災型的都更嘛這一部分內政部有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":605.342,"end":619.273,"text":"跟委員報告其實第一時間我們其實相關的這個合作的單位其實都已經有進駐到災區像在花蓮我們的這個跟國政中心的合作已經他們已經從上週就開始在"},{"start":621.114,"end":647.951,"text":"找每一棟大樓就是確定紅單的大樓那他們認為還有機會搶救的這個部分都已經上週開始就連續一直在開會我們也是希望主動主動來協助地方政府來進行協助他們確認他們還有沒有修繕補強的意願或是他們確定要走都更我們會一段一段去做那因為我們都有協助的輔導單位那我們也是希望藉這個過程當中"},{"start":649.272,"end":674.273,"text":"鼓勵地方政府就跟社區趕快把這個組織架起來這樣我們才有一個阻擾的機會你現在談執行這個層面當然是地方政府在執行我說明我們的單位已經都下去了你也下去協助輔導的角色但現在問題就是說這些紅黃丹的建築或者是一些危老的速度很慢其實是遊戲規則的問題而不是實際執行他們不認真大家想推啊可是民間意願很低落嘛因為誘因不夠啊"},{"start":674.853,"end":693.081,"text":"溝通有困難嗎?」對不對所以當然是藉著這震災的機會是不是內政部要針對規範的部分比如杜根的誘因啊、容積獎勵啊是不是要做一個通盤的檢討我當然不是講說要一次就全部都要適用可是有沒有針對特別危險的啦比如說地震帶、敏感帶這些東西有防災杜根的這些倡議跟計畫"},{"start":694.882,"end":715.981,"text":"報告就是說我們其實針對這個部分其實它本來就都有相對應的機制了我說明一下那現在的狀況就是說你到了真正災民輔導的時候其實往往出現的不是在談這個因為有人要走有人要留對啦因為有人要走有人要留所以那其實那個財產的處分就是一個很大的問題對所以現在問題就是"},{"start":718.044,"end":731.465,"text":"你前端的機制沒有好的時候前端的機制不夠好的時候你就永遠是地震發生之後再來善後就很麻煩做不完的事情嘛我現在講的是政策對話的部分嘛機制的部分有沒有修正的空間"},{"start":732.426,"end":749.634,"text":"那我有跟你報告我們來檢討啦那來緊緊但第二個我要講如果就現在的現況的這個案件的話就是要先做完調查就是災民醫院調查剛剛署長在講有的要走有的要留所以這個醫院調查完了之後才有辦法往"},{"start":750.054,"end":751.796,"text":"後面的分析的重重研討﹑重重研討"}]}}}}