{"id":151142,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151142","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8a1755e5400c0ee13bf652b2836334bd5be8c4a3d24463f8ba9b0039caa7a6a7c63afbaf1f10e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"11:37:50 - 11:48:53","影片長度":"00:11:03","會議時間":"2024-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長、行政院主計總處副主計長、原住民族委員會、行政院公共工程委員會、交通部、交通部觀光署、環境部、勞動部、農業部、教育部、衛生福利部、經濟部、財政部、國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會、金融監督管理委員會就「0403震災之災後救助、重建規劃及補助方式」及「從東華實驗室失火事件檢討災害防救之完備化」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-11"},"date":"2024-04-15","duration":663,"end_time":"2024-04-15T11:48:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-15T11:37:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1155,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（11時37分）謝謝主席。我們讓部長休息一下，我先問兩位署長，我想請消防署蕭署長。"],["主席：請消防署署長。"],["蘇委員巧慧：還有環境部化學署謝署長。"],["主席：請環境部化學署署長，謝謝。"],["蕭署長煥章：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：兩位署長好。我想請兩位署長上臺，不用太緊張啦！我主要是要討論跨部會的事項，所以今天主席這樣安排，我剛好可以藉這個機會一次來請教。今天既然我們要討論的主題是東華大學化學實驗室大火，實驗室的大火是今天質詢的主題之一，我先請問消防署蕭署長，在這一次化學實驗室的大火當中，請問環境部所提供的這個化學雲有幫助到嗎？你們有使用到嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：報告委員，我們的化學雲有查到學校的這個資料。"],["蘇委員巧慧：有查到？"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以你們在救災之前，或者是任何時刻，有用到這個化學雲的資料嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：在去年的屏東事件以後……"],["蘇委員巧慧：這次沒有？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們派遣的時候都會把這個資料呈現出來。"],["蘇委員巧慧：去年屏東開始有，我要問的就是這次啊！"],["蕭署長煥章：本來就有，但去年屏東事件以後，我們在盤點過以後，資料更清楚，而且會把物質的狀況做更清楚的呈現。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！所以簡單講嘛，這次到底是有還是沒有？有，你就給人家肯定啊！現在是因為沒有，所以不好意思跟你的同僚講嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：我記得有處理好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：有？"],["蕭署長煥章：有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，理論上應該是這樣嘛，我是不知道非常細節的detail，但是據我的瞭解，應該是在第一時間，在消防隊員要去救災之前，其實你們會依據環境部的化學雲所提供的資料，出一份快報給救災的隊員，讓他們能夠掌握災害發生地的現況，做出正確的判斷，理論上是這樣，對不對？"],["蕭署長煥章：是的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，所以這次有發揮功效嗎？還有沒有什麼可以……"],["蕭署長煥章：知道這個狀況。"],["蘇委員巧慧：知道這個狀況，所以對救災有幫助？"],["蕭署長煥章：當然會掌握到現場狀況做必要的判斷。"],["蘇委員巧慧：有，你就大聲地說有，然後給環境部肯定一下，也幫它加分一下嘛！"],["蕭署長煥章：有啦，是，謝謝！"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！好，那這個有沒有什麼要改進的部分？你們覺得有要改進的部分嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，事實上在這個事件發生以後，分成兩個區塊，第一個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我單純地就化學雲的這個部分問你，好不好用？"],["蕭署長煥章：化學雲目前是已經存在的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["蕭署長煥章：當然我們也跟署長這邊在討論，怎麼再透過更精進的方法來強化，這個還正在進行式，跟委員回報。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，同樣的問題，請問署長，也請問我們環境部化學署的署長，請問一下，你對這次化學雲提供的功能滿意嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：跟委員報告，這次的提供，因為我們跟119的勤務指揮系統是結合的，而且在明揚國際事件之後，行政院有一些改善。"],["蘇委員巧慧：可是明揚國際的事件其實就是沒有通報，不是嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：有，我們現在就是調整表現的方式，把危險的這些資訊列到前面來，讓位置等資訊都更清楚，所以這一次是有改善。"],["蘇委員巧慧：有改善？"],["謝署長燕儒：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，兩位署長都客氣了，老實講，本席的立場一向是，政府如果做得好，應該要廣為讓民眾知道，說我們有調整、有進步，而且持續在改善，大家可以安心，公務員是真的有認真。我為什麼今天特別挑這個來講？因為我過去4年在衛環委員會，其實就化學雲的部分跟你討論過非常多次，也是不停地要求改進、精進，尤其在明揚大火的部分，特別針對讓我們的消防隊員要入場之前，可以知道狀況、能夠安心、有保障，保障我們的消防弟兄是最重要的一件事情，不是嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以今天我來到了內政委員會，我想知道，我們努力這麼久的化學雲，到底對消防弟兄有沒有幫助？蕭署長，到底是有還是沒有？真的是，怎麼沒有給一個痛快的答案？"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員回報，這個表就是在去年事故以後新增的，現場的情況我們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！我們那時候要求很久啊！"],["蕭署長煥章：瞭解現場到底有哪些危險物質，這個是已經確定的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是。"],["蕭署長煥章：這次的事故學校跟化學署、毒化應變中心也有到現場做掌握跟瞭解，目前跨機關合作的這個機制已經建立起來。"],["蘇委員巧慧：化學雲其實掌理了我們各個行政機關，不管是從內政、消防、經濟等等，它掌管了所有的化學物品、危險物品、有毒物質，統統都希望大家能夠存放到這個部分來嘛，因此各個機關也會由這個總庫去看，不管這次的事件是食物中毒也好，消防事件也好，可以從我們政府的大資料庫裡面去查找應該相對應的資料，這是環境部在總理這個化學雲當中最重要的工作。過去我們討論了非常多次，我非常期待這次對大火是能夠有幫助的。不過我也看到了消防署其實對於這個圖表的表現方式，因為衝進去救援的時候，可能要有更直觀的資訊，你要再調整，我也非常地贊成。我覺得有功要賞啦！我肯定你這邊做的調整，從去年明揚大火之後，到現在發揮功效，這是第一點。","不過我們現在可以看得出來，除了希望化學雲這個政府的總資料庫對於救災第一線能夠有幫助之外，其實對第二層，我們也是希望它能夠提供幫助。第二層是什麼？第二層是預防災害的發生，這個部分我也要請教蕭署長，蕭署長覺得我們各縣市的消防設備、配備足夠嗎？公平嗎？因為我現在看到這樣的報告，其實在花蓮縣這次的救災裡面，它的化學消防車看起來似乎是不夠的，這樣對花蓮縣是公平的嗎？既然你從化學雲就可以看出有危險的物質存放在花蓮縣該地，但花蓮縣卻沒有足以匹配的救災車在那裡，這樣合理嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員回報，分成兩個部分，學校本身跟教育部要去強化的，預防火災跟自衛消防編組與消防設備，那個部分要去處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，沒錯，那是一個部分。"],["蕭署長煥章：另外一部分就是消防設備、消防車輛、訓練器材這個部分。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["蕭署長煥章：剛才委員有特別垂詢，我們在這次事件，本來化學雲這個經費裡面就有一些經費會去補助，在這次事件以後，我們再整個盤點一下，就後面年度的經費裡面，我們怎麼樣透過這次災害的教訓，得到什麼樣優先順序的排列，甚至有哪些滅火器材需要優先來配置，在這次事件以後我們會整個再來檢討一下，我們回復給委員……"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝署長，你同意化學雲的資料可以這樣用嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：是，跟委員報告，我們化學雲資料的表達應該是沒問題，就是說平常可以運用。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["謝署長燕儒：剛剛委員垂詢的是救災器材的準備……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！要提早預防的部分。"],["謝署長燕儒：我們跟消防署還有我們跨部會有提了最近一期的計畫到113年，新的計畫114年到119年其實行政院也核准了，裡面在消防署這邊也編了41億要補助地方政府關於消防器材、車輛設備的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是他要怎麼去配備其實也可以根據你們的狀況、你們提供的資料嘛！"],["謝署長燕儒：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為我們從花蓮縣的這次大火來看的話，對我們非專業的人來講，化學消防車和化學災害處理車這兩者到底有什麼樣的差別？坦白講，你如果只有給我看說我們有化學消防車，我可能就給過了，我就說：這樣好，你們已經足夠了。結果不是啊！細究下去以後才發現我們真的就是先跳開，剛剛講的學校要怎麼準備自己的實驗室安全，那是另外一件事情，我們現在在講的是消防署怎麼救災的部分，結果你現在告訴我，其實以這次的事件來講，化學消防車是不夠的，一定要化學災害處理車才有辦法處理，結果現在去看花蓮縣有沒有這種車，完全沒有，那如果沒有的話，在東華大學的這個實驗室裡面，雖然它是學校的部分，但是災害一旦發生，就變成救災是你們來做，那沒有配備怎麼可以呢？這不應該是很淺顯易懂的道理嗎？所以我才會說，其實化學雲它可以提供的功用不只是在第一線的救災地區，甚至於後面我們在整備器材的時候，我們也應該要看各縣市、各地區分備的物質不同，那你的整備器材也應該要配合，這不是才是資料的最大運用嗎？署長，我這樣講合理吧？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，感謝委員，剛剛跟委員回報，目前就整個在盤點，就後面化學雲的經費裡面，我們針對哪些地方，不光是車輛的問題，還有滅火器材的問題，所以滅火器材我們怎麼強化，針對不同場所的種類、屬性來準備必要的滅火器材，這是我們要來檢討、強化、補強的地方。"],["蘇委員巧慧：不只是滅火器材啦！老實說，我本來想給你看日本的規定，其實日本就規定得更細緻，所有的設備器材跟資訊是不是有辦法可以配合，其實人家是規定得非常細的，現在看我們自己的直轄市縣市消防車輛裝備及其人力配置標準，其實都十分的籠統，對於車輛的裝備都只表示得視轄區特性、消防人力等實際狀況配置，那我覺得這個都太籠統了。我今天就舉例，這是一個例子，我當然沒有你專業，但是以我的角度就可以看出這樣的一個點，我希望政府能夠把已經掌握的資料變成未來你們在配置上甚至在訂定更細緻標準的時候的一個參考，這是我今天提出和別人不一樣的觀點，也請兩個署長可以跨部會的配合，當然部長在這裡，也請部長可以繼續的給予意見，這是我今天的建議，謝謝。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝巧慧委員的質詢，謝謝兩位署長，希望兩位署長會後跟教育部一定要盤點一下，好不好？我在臨時提案裡面也有提出來，謝謝。","繼續請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-11","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張智倫","黃捷","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","丁學忠","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","李坤城","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","傅崐萁","陳培瑜","林憶君","吳沛憶","羅智強","邱若華","莊瑞雄"],"page_start":139,"meetingDate":["2024-04-15"],"gazette_id":"1132801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院主計總處副主計長、原住民族委員會、行政院公共工程委員會、交通\n部、交通部觀光署、環境部、勞動部、農業部、教育部、衛生福利部、經濟部、財政部、國軍退\n除役官兵輔導委員會、金融監督管理委員會就「0403震災之災後救助、重建規劃及補助方式」及\n「從東華實驗室失火事件檢討災害防救之完備化」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132801_00017"}},"transcript":{"id":"151142","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151142","tool":"pyannote","id":"151142-pyannote"},"job_id":"oK3WmyVM7Lbwf8Vh","queued_at":"2024-06-01 10:26:11","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-01 10:26:57","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151142"},{"time":"2024-06-01 10:26:58","msg":"downloading 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00:01:38,189\n目前在去年的屏東事件以後我們派遣的時候都會把這個資料呈現出來去年屏東開始有那去年屏東以後我們在盤點過以後資料更清楚而且會把物質的那個狀況更清楚的呈現所以簡單講嘛這次到底是有還是沒有有你就給人家肯定啊沒有的話現在是因為沒有所以是不好意思跟你同僚說嗎是這樣嗎有無界的資料有\n\n5\n00:01:41,170 --> 00:01:50,757\n對,理論上應該是這樣嘛因為我據我的了解應該是在消防隊員第一時間我是不知道非常細節的detail但是在消防隊員要去救災之前其實你們會依據環保署這個環境環境部這邊所提供的化學營提供的資料會出一份快報給您救災的隊員讓他們能夠掌握災害發生地的現況以至於能夠做出正確的判斷理論上是這樣對不對\n\n6\n00:02:10,432 --> 00:02:30,365\n所以這次有發揮功效嗎?知道這個狀況所以對救災有幫助?當然會掌握到現場狀況做必要的判斷那有你就大聲的說有然後幫人家這個環境部肯定一下也給他加分一下嘛對啊那這個有沒有什麼要改進的部分?\n\n7\n00:02:32,813 --> 00:02:59,306\n你們覺得有要改進的部分嗎?法定委員報告事實上這個事件發生以後分成兩個區塊我就單純救化學雲的這個部分好不好用?化學雲目前是已經存在著那當然我們也跟署長這邊在討論怎麼再透過更精進的方法來做強化這個還正在進行是跟委員會報告那同樣的問題請問署長啦也請問我們這個環境部化學署的署長請問一下你覺得你對這次化學雲提供的功能滿意嗎?\n\n8\n00:03:01,409 --> 00:03:21,586\n跟委員報告這次的提供是因為我們跟119的勤務指揮系統是結合的而且是在民營國際之後啊行政院有一些但是民營國際其實就是沒有通報嘛不是嗎我們現在就是調整那個那個等於是表現的方式啦危險的這些提到前面來位置的這些都更清楚\n\n9\n00:03:22,006 --> 00:03:44,471\n所以這一次是有改善有改善好兩位署長都客氣啦老實講本席的立場是這樣子一向是政府如果有做得好其實應該要廣為讓民眾知道所以我們有調整有進步而且持續在改善大家可以安心公務員是真的有認真我為什麼今天特別挑這個因為我過去四年在環保我們在衛福衛福委員會嘛\n\n10\n00:03:45,771 --> 00:04:14,094\n其實就化學營的部分跟你討論過非常多次也是不停的精進要求改進尤其在民洋大火的部分就是特別針對讓我們的消防隊員要入場之前可以知道狀況能夠安心有保障保障我們的消防弟兄是最重要的一件事情嘛不是嗎所以我很想今天我來到了內政委員會我想知道我們努力這麼久的消防營到底對消防弟兄有沒有幫助\n\n11\n00:04:16,417 --> 00:04:27,689\n蕭署長到底是有還沒有這真的是怎麼沒有給一個痛快的答案這樣對啊跟委員回報啦這個表就是在去年事故以後行政部是啊我們那時候要求很久啊了解現場到底有哪些武士這個已經確定了是\n\n12\n00:04:33,755 --> 00:04:59,141\n那這次事故學校跟化學署、毒化應變中心也到現場做一個掌握跟了解目前的跨機關合作這個已經既然建立起來化學雲其實掌理了我們所有的各個行政機關不管是從內政消防經濟等等所有在掌管化學物品、危險物品、有毒物質通通都希望大家能夠存放到你這個部分來嘛那\n\n13\n00:04:59,761 --> 00:05:29,341\n因此各個機關也在由這個總庫去看我這次事件不管是食物中毒也好啦不管是這種消防也好啦等等可以從我們政府的大資料庫裡面去查找應該相對應的資料嘛這是環境部在總理這個化學營當中最重要的工作嘛過去我們討論非常多次我非常期待這次是對大夥是能夠有幫助的不過我也看到了說消防署呢其實對於這個圖表的表現方式因為\n\n14\n00:05:30,161 --> 00:05:33,504\n衝進去救援的時候可能要有更直觀的這些資訊你要再調整我也非常的贊成啦所以這是第一點我肯定你這邊做的調整從去年民漾大火之後到現在發揮功效這是第一點\n\n15\n00:05:47,293 --> 00:05:54,997\n不過我們現在可以看得出來我們除了希望這個化學雲這個政府的總資料庫對於救災第一線能夠有幫助之外其實對第二層我們也是希望它能夠提供幫助嘛第二層是什麼第二層是預防災害的發生好那從這個部分我就也要請教蕭署長蕭署長你覺得我們各縣市各縣市的消防設備配備足夠嗎公平嗎因為我現在看到這樣的報告其實\n\n16\n00:06:15,566 --> 00:06:38,713\n花蓮縣這次的救災裡面它的化學消防車似乎看起來是不夠的嘛這樣對花蓮縣是公平的嗎但那裡既然你從化學雲就可以看出有危險的物質是存放在花蓮縣該地花蓮縣卻沒有一個剛好可以足以匹配的救災車可以在那裡這樣合理嗎\n\n17\n00:06:40,037 --> 00:06:59,750\n是跟委員回報分成兩個部分學校本身跟教育部要去強化的預防火災跟自主建築跟設備那是一個部分沒錯那是一個部分另外一部分就是消防設備、消防車輛、訓練器材這個部分剛才委員特別垂詢那我們在這次事件本來化學與經費裡面就有一些經費器來補助\n\n18\n00:07:03,532 --> 00:07:26,322\n這次事件以後我們整個再盤點一下就後面的年度的經費裡面我們怎麼樣透過這次的災害的教訓得到什麼樣的優先順序的排列甚至有哪些滅火器材需要優先來配置這一次事件我們會整個再來檢討一下回覆給委員會事實上你同意化學雲可以這樣化學雲的資料可以這樣用嗎\n\n19\n00:07:27,282 --> 00:07:55,423\n是,各位委員報告,環環資料的表達應該是沒問題就是說平常可以運用對剛剛委員報告,委員槌詢的是說那再來救災器材的準備是啊,更提早預防的部分我們跟消防署還有,我們跨部會有提了最近一起的計畫到113新的計畫114到119其實行政院也核准了裡面就有消防署這邊也編了41億要補助地方政府有關於消防器材、車輛、設備的一個\n\n20\n00:07:56,624 --> 00:08:04,110\n他要怎麼去配備其實也可以根據你們的狀況嗎?你們提供的資料嗎?因為我們從花蓮縣的政事大會來看的話對我們非專業的人來講化學消防車和化學災害處理車這兩者到底有什麼樣的差別?坦白講你如果只有給我看說我有化學消防車我可能就給過了我就說這樣好你們已經足夠了結果不是啊\n\n21\n00:08:20,863 --> 00:08:37,035\n戲就下去以後才發現說我們先真的就是這樣跳開嘛剛剛學校要怎麼準備自己的實驗室安全那是另外一件事情我們現在在講的是消防署怎麼救災的部分結果你現在告訴我其實以這次的事件來講消防化學化學消防車是不夠的一定要化學災害處理車才有辦法處理結果現在去看花蓮縣有沒有這種車完全沒有啊\n\n22\n00:08:45,942 --> 00:09:14,605\n那如果沒有的話但東華大學的這個實驗室裡面雖然它是學校的部分但災害一旦發生就變成救災是你們啦那沒有配備怎麼可以呢這不是應該是這個很淺顯易懂的道理所以我才會說其實化學雲它可以提供的功用不只是在第一線的救災地區甚至是後面我們在整備器材的時候我們也應該要看各縣市各地區分配的物質不同\n\n23\n00:09:15,546 --> 00:09:35,059\n那你的整備器材也應該配合著這不是才是資料的最大運用嗎主長我這樣講合理吧是感謝委員目前剛剛跟委員回報就目前就整個在盤點就後面化學園的經費裡面我們針對哪些地方不光是車輛的問題還有滅火器材的問題所以滅火器材我們怎麼強化它的\n\n24\n00:09:39,021 --> 00:10:05,175\n針對不同場所的種類屬性來準備必要的滅火器材這是我們要來檢討來強化來補強這個地方不只是滅火器材老實說我本來想給你看這個日本的規定其實日本的規定就規定得更細緻它所有的設備器材跟我們的這個資訊是不是有辦法可以配合其實人家是規定得非常細的而我們現在看我們自己的\n\n25\n00:10:05,515 --> 00:10:17,688\n直轄縣市消防車輛裝備及人力配置標準其實都十分的籠統啊根據車輛的裝備都只表示德市轄區特性消防人力等實際狀況配置那我覺得這個都太籠統了\n\n26\n00:10:20,751 --> 00:10:44,346\n那我今天就舉例啦這是一個例子我當然沒有你專業但我就可以以我的角度就可以看出這樣的一個點那我希望能夠把政府已經掌握的資料可以變成未來你們在配置上甚至在訂更細緻標準的時候的一個參考這是我今天提出和別人不一樣的觀點也請兩個署長這邊可以跨部會的配合當然部長在這裡也請部長可以繼續的給予意見這是我今天的建議啦\n\n27\n00:10:52,071 --> 00:11:02,737\n謝謝非常謝謝喬惠委員的質詢謝謝兩位署長希望兩位署長會後跟教育部你們一定要盤點一下好不好謝謝我在臨時提案也有提出來\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4631\t16869\t謝謝主席我們讓部長休息一下部長我先問兩位署長我想請消防署請消防署署長然後還有我們環境部化學署謝署長環境部化學署謝謝\n24741\t47333\t兩位署長好我想請兩位署長上來不用太緊張啦我主要是要討論跨部會的事項所以今天主席這樣有安排我剛好可以藉這個機會一次來請教那今天既然我們要討論的主題其實是東華大學的化學室的實驗大火實驗室的大火是今天的質詢主題之一我就想請問先請問蕭署長蕭防署蕭署長想請問您\n51395\t72591\t在這一次的化學實驗室的大火當中請問我們的環境部所提供的這個化學雲有幫助到嗎?你們有使用到嗎?學校的資料我們在化學雲有查到這個資料所以你們在救災的之前或者是任何時刻有用到這個化學雲的資料嗎?\n75425\t98189\t目前在去年的屏東事件以後我們派遣的時候都會把這個資料呈現出來去年屏東開始有那去年屏東以後我們在盤點過以後資料更清楚而且會把物質的那個狀況更清楚的呈現所以簡單講嘛這次到底是有還是沒有有你就給人家肯定啊沒有的話現在是因為沒有所以是不好意思跟你同僚說嗎是這樣嗎有無界的資料有\n101170\t110757\t對,理論上應該是這樣嘛因為我據我的了解應該是在消防隊員第一時間我是不知道非常細節的detail但是在消防隊員要去救災之前其實你們會依據環保署這個環境環境部這邊所提供的化學營提供的資料會出一份快報給您救災的隊員讓他們能夠掌握災害發生地的現況以至於能夠做出正確的判斷理論上是這樣對不對\n130432\t150365\t所以這次有發揮功效嗎?知道這個狀況所以對救災有幫助?當然會掌握到現場狀況做必要的判斷那有你就大聲的說有然後幫人家這個環境部肯定一下也給他加分一下嘛對啊那這個有沒有什麼要改進的部分?\n152813\t179306\t你們覺得有要改進的部分嗎?法定委員報告事實上這個事件發生以後分成兩個區塊我就單純救化學雲的這個部分好不好用?化學雲目前是已經存在著那當然我們也跟署長這邊在討論怎麼再透過更精進的方法來做強化這個還正在進行是跟委員會報告那同樣的問題請問署長啦也請問我們這個環境部化學署的署長請問一下你覺得你對這次化學雲提供的功能滿意嗎?\n181409\t201586\t跟委員報告這次的提供是因為我們跟119的勤務指揮系統是結合的而且是在民營國際之後啊行政院有一些但是民營國際其實就是沒有通報嘛不是嗎我們現在就是調整那個那個等於是表現的方式啦危險的這些提到前面來位置的這些都更清楚\n202006\t224471\t所以這一次是有改善有改善好 兩位署長都客氣啦老實講本席的立場是這樣子一向是政府如果有做得好其實應該要廣為讓民眾知道所以我們有調整有進步而且持續在改善大家可以安心公務員是真的有認真我為什麼今天特別挑這個因為我過去四年在環保我們在衛福衛福委員會嘛\n225771\t254094\t其實就化學營的部分跟你討論過非常多次也是不停的精進要求改進尤其在民洋大火的部分就是特別針對讓我們的消防隊員要入場之前可以知道狀況能夠安心有保障保障我們的消防弟兄是最重要的一件事情嘛不是嗎所以我很想今天我來到了內政委員會我想知道我們努力這麼久的消防營到底對消防弟兄有沒有幫助\n256417\t267689\t蕭署長到底是有還沒有這真的是怎麼沒有給一個痛快的答案這樣對啊跟委員回報啦這個表就是在去年事故以後行政部是啊我們那時候要求很久啊了解現場到底有哪些武士這個已經確定了是\n273755\t299141\t那這次事故學校跟化學署、毒化應變中心也到現場做一個掌握跟了解目前的跨機關合作這個已經既然建立起來化學雲其實掌理了我們所有的各個行政機關不管是從內政消防經濟等等所有在掌管化學物品、危險物品、有毒物質通通都希望大家能夠存放到你這個部分來嘛那\n299761\t329341\t因此各個機關也在由這個總庫去看我這次事件不管是食物中毒也好啦不管是這種消防也好啦等等可以從我們政府的大資料庫裡面去查找應該相對應的資料嘛這是環境部在總理這個化學營當中最重要的工作嘛過去我們討論非常多次我非常期待這次是對大夥是能夠有幫助的不過我也看到了說消防署呢其實對於這個圖表的表現方式因為\n330161\t333504\t衝進去救援的時候可能要有更直觀的這些資訊你要再調整我也非常的贊成啦所以這是第一點我肯定你這邊做的調整從去年民漾大火之後到現在發揮功效這是第一點\n347293\t354997\t不過我們現在可以看得出來我們除了希望這個化學雲這個政府的總資料庫對於救災第一線能夠有幫助之外其實對第二層我們也是希望它能夠提供幫助嘛第二層是什麼第二層是預防災害的發生好那從這個部分我就也要請教蕭署長蕭署長你覺得我們各縣市各縣市的消防設備配備足夠嗎公平嗎因為我現在看到這樣的報告其實\n375566\t398713\t花蓮縣這次的救災裡面它的化學消防車似乎看起來是不夠的嘛這樣對花蓮縣是公平的嗎但那裡既然你從化學雲就可以看出有危險的物質是存放在花蓮縣該地花蓮縣卻沒有一個剛好可以足以匹配的救災車可以在那裡這樣合理嗎\n400037\t419750\t是跟委員回報分成兩個部分學校本身跟教育部要去強化的預防火災跟自主建築跟設備那是一個部分沒錯那是一個部分另外一部分就是消防設備、消防車輛、訓練器材這個部分剛才委員特別垂詢那我們在這次事件本來化學與經費裡面就有一些經費器來補助\n423532\t446322\t這次事件以後我們整個再盤點一下就後面的年度的經費裡面我們怎麼樣透過這次的災害的教訓得到什麼樣的優先順序的排列甚至有哪些滅火器材需要優先來配置這一次事件我們會整個再來檢討一下回覆給委員會事實上你同意化學雲可以這樣化學雲的資料可以這樣用嗎\n447282\t475423\t是,各位委員報告,環環資料的表達應該是沒問題就是說平常可以運用對剛剛委員報告,委員槌詢的是說那再來救災器材的準備是啊,更提早預防的部分我們跟消防署還有,我們跨部會有提了最近一起的計畫到113新的計畫114到119其實行政院也核准了裡面就有消防署這邊也編了41億要補助地方政府有關於消防器材、車輛、設備的一個\n476624\t484110\t他要怎麼去配備其實也可以根據你們的狀況嗎?你們提供的資料嗎?因為我們從花蓮縣的政事大會來看的話對我們非專業的人來講化學消防車和化學災害處理車這兩者到底有什麼樣的差別?坦白講你如果只有給我看說我有化學消防車我可能就給過了我就說這樣好你們已經足夠了結果不是啊\n500863\t517035\t戲就下去以後才發現說我們先真的就是這樣跳開嘛剛剛學校要怎麼準備自己的實驗室安全那是另外一件事情我們現在在講的是消防署怎麼救災的部分結果你現在告訴我其實以這次的事件來講消防化學化學消防車是不夠的一定要化學災害處理車才有辦法處理結果現在去看花蓮縣有沒有這種車完全沒有啊\n525942\t554605\t那如果沒有的話但東華大學的這個實驗室裡面雖然它是學校的部分但災害一旦發生就變成救災是你們啦那沒有配備怎麼可以呢這不是應該是這個很淺顯易懂的道理所以我才會說其實化學雲它可以提供的功用不只是在第一線的救災地區甚至是後面我們在整備器材的時候我們也應該要看各縣市各地區分配的物質不同\n555546\t575059\t那你的整備器材也應該配合著這不是才是資料的最大運用嗎主長我這樣講合理吧是 感謝委員目前 剛剛跟委員回報就目前就整個在盤點就後面化學園的經費裡面我們針對哪些地方不光是車輛的問題還有滅火器材的問題所以滅火器材我們怎麼強化它的\n579021\t605175\t針對不同場所的種類屬性來準備必要的滅火器材這是我們要來檢討來強化來補強這個地方不只是滅火器材老實說我本來想給你看這個日本的規定其實日本的規定就規定得更細緻它所有的設備器材跟我們的這個資訊是不是有辦法可以配合其實人家是規定得非常細的而我們現在看我們自己的\n605515\t617688\t直轄縣市消防車輛裝備及人力配置標準其實都十分的籠統啊根據車輛的裝備都只表示德市轄區特性消防人力等實際狀況配置那我覺得這個都太籠統了\n620751\t644346\t那我今天就舉例啦這是一個例子我當然沒有你專業但我就可以以我的角度就可以看出這樣的一個點那我希望能夠把政府已經掌握的資料可以變成未來你們在配置上甚至在訂更細緻標準的時候的一個參考這是我今天提出和別人不一樣的觀點也請兩個署長這邊可以跨部會的配合當然部長在這裡也請部長可以繼續的給予意見這是我今天的建議啦\n652071\t662737\t謝謝 非常謝謝喬惠委員的質詢謝謝兩位署長希望兩位署長會後跟教育部你們一定要盤點一下好不好謝謝我在臨時提案也有提出來\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們讓部長休息一下部長我先問兩位署長我想請消防署請消防署署長然後還有我們環境部化學署謝署長環境部化學署謝謝\n兩位署長好我想請兩位署長上來不用太緊張啦我主要是要討論跨部會的事項所以今天主席這樣有安排我剛好可以藉這個機會一次來請教那今天既然我們要討論的主題其實是東華大學的化學室的實驗大火實驗室的大火是今天的質詢主題之一我就想請問先請問蕭署長蕭防署蕭署長想請問您\n在這一次的化學實驗室的大火當中請問我們的環境部所提供的這個化學雲有幫助到嗎?你們有使用到嗎?學校的資料我們在化學雲有查到這個資料所以你們在救災的之前或者是任何時刻有用到這個化學雲的資料嗎?\n目前在去年的屏東事件以後我們派遣的時候都會把這個資料呈現出來去年屏東開始有那去年屏東以後我們在盤點過以後資料更清楚而且會把物質的那個狀況更清楚的呈現所以簡單講嘛這次到底是有還是沒有有你就給人家肯定啊沒有的話現在是因為沒有所以是不好意思跟你同僚說嗎是這樣嗎有無界的資料有\n對,理論上應該是這樣嘛因為我據我的了解應該是在消防隊員第一時間我是不知道非常細節的detail但是在消防隊員要去救災之前其實你們會依據環保署這個環境環境部這邊所提供的化學營提供的資料會出一份快報給您救災的隊員讓他們能夠掌握災害發生地的現況以至於能夠做出正確的判斷理論上是這樣對不對\n所以這次有發揮功效嗎?知道這個狀況所以對救災有幫助?當然會掌握到現場狀況做必要的判斷那有你就大聲的說有然後幫人家這個環境部肯定一下也給他加分一下嘛對啊那這個有沒有什麼要改進的部分?\n你們覺得有要改進的部分嗎?法定委員報告事實上這個事件發生以後分成兩個區塊我就單純救化學雲的這個部分好不好用?化學雲目前是已經存在著那當然我們也跟署長這邊在討論怎麼再透過更精進的方法來做強化這個還正在進行是跟委員會報告那同樣的問題請問署長啦也請問我們這個環境部化學署的署長請問一下你覺得你對這次化學雲提供的功能滿意嗎?\n跟委員報告這次的提供是因為我們跟119的勤務指揮系統是結合的而且是在民營國際之後啊行政院有一些但是民營國際其實就是沒有通報嘛不是嗎我們現在就是調整那個那個等於是表現的方式啦危險的這些提到前面來位置的這些都更清楚\n所以這一次是有改善有改善好 兩位署長都客氣啦老實講本席的立場是這樣子一向是政府如果有做得好其實應該要廣為讓民眾知道所以我們有調整有進步而且持續在改善大家可以安心公務員是真的有認真我為什麼今天特別挑這個因為我過去四年在環保我們在衛福衛福委員會嘛\n其實就化學營的部分跟你討論過非常多次也是不停的精進要求改進尤其在民洋大火的部分就是特別針對讓我們的消防隊員要入場之前可以知道狀況能夠安心有保障保障我們的消防弟兄是最重要的一件事情嘛不是嗎所以我很想今天我來到了內政委員會我想知道我們努力這麼久的消防營到底對消防弟兄有沒有幫助\n蕭署長到底是有還沒有這真的是怎麼沒有給一個痛快的答案這樣對啊跟委員回報啦這個表就是在去年事故以後行政部是啊我們那時候要求很久啊了解現場到底有哪些武士這個已經確定了是\n那這次事故學校跟化學署、毒化應變中心也到現場做一個掌握跟了解目前的跨機關合作這個已經既然建立起來化學雲其實掌理了我們所有的各個行政機關不管是從內政消防經濟等等所有在掌管化學物品、危險物品、有毒物質通通都希望大家能夠存放到你這個部分來嘛那\n因此各個機關也在由這個總庫去看我這次事件不管是食物中毒也好啦不管是這種消防也好啦等等可以從我們政府的大資料庫裡面去查找應該相對應的資料嘛這是環境部在總理這個化學營當中最重要的工作嘛過去我們討論非常多次我非常期待這次是對大夥是能夠有幫助的不過我也看到了說消防署呢其實對於這個圖表的表現方式因為\n衝進去救援的時候可能要有更直觀的這些資訊你要再調整我也非常的贊成啦所以這是第一點我肯定你這邊做的調整從去年民漾大火之後到現在發揮功效這是第一點\n不過我們現在可以看得出來我們除了希望這個化學雲這個政府的總資料庫對於救災第一線能夠有幫助之外其實對第二層我們也是希望它能夠提供幫助嘛第二層是什麼第二層是預防災害的發生好那從這個部分我就也要請教蕭署長蕭署長你覺得我們各縣市各縣市的消防設備配備足夠嗎公平嗎因為我現在看到這樣的報告其實\n花蓮縣這次的救災裡面它的化學消防車似乎看起來是不夠的嘛這樣對花蓮縣是公平的嗎但那裡既然你從化學雲就可以看出有危險的物質是存放在花蓮縣該地花蓮縣卻沒有一個剛好可以足以匹配的救災車可以在那裡這樣合理嗎\n是跟委員回報分成兩個部分學校本身跟教育部要去強化的預防火災跟自主建築跟設備那是一個部分沒錯那是一個部分另外一部分就是消防設備、消防車輛、訓練器材這個部分剛才委員特別垂詢那我們在這次事件本來化學與經費裡面就有一些經費器來補助\n這次事件以後我們整個再盤點一下就後面的年度的經費裡面我們怎麼樣透過這次的災害的教訓得到什麼樣的優先順序的排列甚至有哪些滅火器材需要優先來配置這一次事件我們會整個再來檢討一下回覆給委員會事實上你同意化學雲可以這樣化學雲的資料可以這樣用嗎\n是,各位委員報告,環環資料的表達應該是沒問題就是說平常可以運用對剛剛委員報告,委員槌詢的是說那再來救災器材的準備是啊,更提早預防的部分我們跟消防署還有,我們跨部會有提了最近一起的計畫到113新的計畫114到119其實行政院也核准了裡面就有消防署這邊也編了41億要補助地方政府有關於消防器材、車輛、設備的一個\n他要怎麼去配備其實也可以根據你們的狀況嗎?你們提供的資料嗎?因為我們從花蓮縣的政事大會來看的話對我們非專業的人來講化學消防車和化學災害處理車這兩者到底有什麼樣的差別?坦白講你如果只有給我看說我有化學消防車我可能就給過了我就說這樣好你們已經足夠了結果不是啊\n戲就下去以後才發現說我們先真的就是這樣跳開嘛剛剛學校要怎麼準備自己的實驗室安全那是另外一件事情我們現在在講的是消防署怎麼救災的部分結果你現在告訴我其實以這次的事件來講消防化學化學消防車是不夠的一定要化學災害處理車才有辦法處理結果現在去看花蓮縣有沒有這種車完全沒有啊\n那如果沒有的話但東華大學的這個實驗室裡面雖然它是學校的部分但災害一旦發生就變成救災是你們啦那沒有配備怎麼可以呢這不是應該是這個很淺顯易懂的道理所以我才會說其實化學雲它可以提供的功用不只是在第一線的救災地區甚至是後面我們在整備器材的時候我們也應該要看各縣市各地區分配的物質不同\n那你的整備器材也應該配合著這不是才是資料的最大運用嗎主長我這樣講合理吧是 感謝委員目前 剛剛跟委員回報就目前就整個在盤點就後面化學園的經費裡面我們針對哪些地方不光是車輛的問題還有滅火器材的問題所以滅火器材我們怎麼強化它的\n針對不同場所的種類屬性來準備必要的滅火器材這是我們要來檢討來強化來補強這個地方不只是滅火器材老實說我本來想給你看這個日本的規定其實日本的規定就規定得更細緻它所有的設備器材跟我們的這個資訊是不是有辦法可以配合其實人家是規定得非常細的而我們現在看我們自己的\n直轄縣市消防車輛裝備及人力配置標準其實都十分的籠統啊根據車輛的裝備都只表示德市轄區特性消防人力等實際狀況配置那我覺得這個都太籠統了\n那我今天就舉例啦這是一個例子我當然沒有你專業但我就可以以我的角度就可以看出這樣的一個點那我希望能夠把政府已經掌握的資料可以變成未來你們在配置上甚至在訂更細緻標準的時候的一個參考這是我今天提出和別人不一樣的觀點也請兩個署長這邊可以跨部會的配合當然部長在這裡也請部長可以繼續的給予意見這是我今天的建議啦\n謝謝 非常謝謝喬惠委員的質詢謝謝兩位署長希望兩位署長會後跟教育部你們一定要盤點一下好不好謝謝我在臨時提案也有提出來\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.631 --> 00:16.869\n謝謝主席我們讓部長休息一下部長我先問兩位署長我想請消防署請消防署署長然後還有我們環境部化學署謝署長環境部化學署謝謝\n\n00:24.741 --> 00:47.333\n兩位署長好我想請兩位署長上來不用太緊張啦我主要是要討論跨部會的事項所以今天主席這樣有安排我剛好可以藉這個機會一次來請教那今天既然我們要討論的主題其實是東華大學的化學室的實驗大火實驗室的大火是今天的質詢主題之一我就想請問先請問蕭署長蕭防署蕭署長想請問您\n\n00:51.395 --> 01:12.591\n在這一次的化學實驗室的大火當中請問我們的環境部所提供的這個化學雲有幫助到嗎?你們有使用到嗎?學校的資料我們在化學雲有查到這個資料所以你們在救災的之前或者是任何時刻有用到這個化學雲的資料嗎?\n\n01:15.425 --> 01:38.189\n目前在去年的屏東事件以後我們派遣的時候都會把這個資料呈現出來去年屏東開始有那去年屏東以後我們在盤點過以後資料更清楚而且會把物質的那個狀況更清楚的呈現所以簡單講嘛這次到底是有還是沒有有你就給人家肯定啊沒有的話現在是因為沒有所以是不好意思跟你同僚說嗎是這樣嗎有無界的資料有\n\n01:41.170 --> 01:50.757\n對,理論上應該是這樣嘛因為我據我的了解應該是在消防隊員第一時間我是不知道非常細節的detail但是在消防隊員要去救災之前其實你們會依據環保署這個環境環境部這邊所提供的化學營提供的資料會出一份快報給您救災的隊員讓他們能夠掌握災害發生地的現況以至於能夠做出正確的判斷理論上是這樣對不對\n\n02:10.432 --> 02:30.365\n所以這次有發揮功效嗎?知道這個狀況所以對救災有幫助?當然會掌握到現場狀況做必要的判斷那有你就大聲的說有然後幫人家這個環境部肯定一下也給他加分一下嘛對啊那這個有沒有什麼要改進的部分?\n\n02:32.813 --> 02:59.306\n你們覺得有要改進的部分嗎?法定委員報告事實上這個事件發生以後分成兩個區塊我就單純救化學雲的這個部分好不好用?化學雲目前是已經存在著那當然我們也跟署長這邊在討論怎麼再透過更精進的方法來做強化這個還正在進行是跟委員會報告那同樣的問題請問署長啦也請問我們這個環境部化學署的署長請問一下你覺得你對這次化學雲提供的功能滿意嗎?\n\n03:01.409 --> 03:21.586\n跟委員報告這次的提供是因為我們跟119的勤務指揮系統是結合的而且是在民營國際之後啊行政院有一些但是民營國際其實就是沒有通報嘛不是嗎我們現在就是調整那個那個等於是表現的方式啦危險的這些提到前面來位置的這些都更清楚\n\n03:22.006 --> 03:44.471\n所以這一次是有改善有改善好兩位署長都客氣啦老實講本席的立場是這樣子一向是政府如果有做得好其實應該要廣為讓民眾知道所以我們有調整有進步而且持續在改善大家可以安心公務員是真的有認真我為什麼今天特別挑這個因為我過去四年在環保我們在衛福衛福委員會嘛\n\n03:45.771 --> 04:14.094\n其實就化學營的部分跟你討論過非常多次也是不停的精進要求改進尤其在民洋大火的部分就是特別針對讓我們的消防隊員要入場之前可以知道狀況能夠安心有保障保障我們的消防弟兄是最重要的一件事情嘛不是嗎所以我很想今天我來到了內政委員會我想知道我們努力這麼久的消防營到底對消防弟兄有沒有幫助\n\n04:16.417 --> 04:27.689\n蕭署長到底是有還沒有這真的是怎麼沒有給一個痛快的答案這樣對啊跟委員回報啦這個表就是在去年事故以後行政部是啊我們那時候要求很久啊了解現場到底有哪些武士這個已經確定了是\n\n04:33.755 --> 04:59.141\n那這次事故學校跟化學署、毒化應變中心也到現場做一個掌握跟了解目前的跨機關合作這個已經既然建立起來化學雲其實掌理了我們所有的各個行政機關不管是從內政消防經濟等等所有在掌管化學物品、危險物品、有毒物質通通都希望大家能夠存放到你這個部分來嘛那\n\n04:59.761 --> 05:29.341\n因此各個機關也在由這個總庫去看我這次事件不管是食物中毒也好啦不管是這種消防也好啦等等可以從我們政府的大資料庫裡面去查找應該相對應的資料嘛這是環境部在總理這個化學營當中最重要的工作嘛過去我們討論非常多次我非常期待這次是對大夥是能夠有幫助的不過我也看到了說消防署呢其實對於這個圖表的表現方式因為\n\n05:30.161 --> 05:33.504\n衝進去救援的時候可能要有更直觀的這些資訊你要再調整我也非常的贊成啦所以這是第一點我肯定你這邊做的調整從去年民漾大火之後到現在發揮功效這是第一點\n\n05:47.293 --> 05:54.997\n不過我們現在可以看得出來我們除了希望這個化學雲這個政府的總資料庫對於救災第一線能夠有幫助之外其實對第二層我們也是希望它能夠提供幫助嘛第二層是什麼第二層是預防災害的發生好那從這個部分我就也要請教蕭署長蕭署長你覺得我們各縣市各縣市的消防設備配備足夠嗎公平嗎因為我現在看到這樣的報告其實\n\n06:15.566 --> 06:38.713\n花蓮縣這次的救災裡面它的化學消防車似乎看起來是不夠的嘛這樣對花蓮縣是公平的嗎但那裡既然你從化學雲就可以看出有危險的物質是存放在花蓮縣該地花蓮縣卻沒有一個剛好可以足以匹配的救災車可以在那裡這樣合理嗎\n\n06:40.037 --> 06:59.750\n是跟委員回報分成兩個部分學校本身跟教育部要去強化的預防火災跟自主建築跟設備那是一個部分沒錯那是一個部分另外一部分就是消防設備、消防車輛、訓練器材這個部分剛才委員特別垂詢那我們在這次事件本來化學與經費裡面就有一些經費器來補助\n\n07:03.532 --> 07:26.322\n這次事件以後我們整個再盤點一下就後面的年度的經費裡面我們怎麼樣透過這次的災害的教訓得到什麼樣的優先順序的排列甚至有哪些滅火器材需要優先來配置這一次事件我們會整個再來檢討一下回覆給委員會事實上你同意化學雲可以這樣化學雲的資料可以這樣用嗎\n\n07:27.282 --> 07:55.423\n是,各位委員報告,環環資料的表達應該是沒問題就是說平常可以運用對剛剛委員報告,委員槌詢的是說那再來救災器材的準備是啊,更提早預防的部分我們跟消防署還有,我們跨部會有提了最近一起的計畫到113新的計畫114到119其實行政院也核准了裡面就有消防署這邊也編了41億要補助地方政府有關於消防器材、車輛、設備的一個\n\n07:56.624 --> 08:04.110\n他要怎麼去配備其實也可以根據你們的狀況嗎?你們提供的資料嗎?因為我們從花蓮縣的政事大會來看的話對我們非專業的人來講化學消防車和化學災害處理車這兩者到底有什麼樣的差別?坦白講你如果只有給我看說我有化學消防車我可能就給過了我就說這樣好你們已經足夠了結果不是啊\n\n08:20.863 --> 08:37.035\n戲就下去以後才發現說我們先真的就是這樣跳開嘛剛剛學校要怎麼準備自己的實驗室安全那是另外一件事情我們現在在講的是消防署怎麼救災的部分結果你現在告訴我其實以這次的事件來講消防化學化學消防車是不夠的一定要化學災害處理車才有辦法處理結果現在去看花蓮縣有沒有這種車完全沒有啊\n\n08:45.942 --> 09:14.605\n那如果沒有的話但東華大學的這個實驗室裡面雖然它是學校的部分但災害一旦發生就變成救災是你們啦那沒有配備怎麼可以呢這不是應該是這個很淺顯易懂的道理所以我才會說其實化學雲它可以提供的功用不只是在第一線的救災地區甚至是後面我們在整備器材的時候我們也應該要看各縣市各地區分配的物質不同\n\n09:15.546 --> 09:35.059\n那你的整備器材也應該配合著這不是才是資料的最大運用嗎主長我這樣講合理吧是感謝委員目前剛剛跟委員回報就目前就整個在盤點就後面化學園的經費裡面我們針對哪些地方不光是車輛的問題還有滅火器材的問題所以滅火器材我們怎麼強化它的\n\n09:39.021 --> 10:05.175\n針對不同場所的種類屬性來準備必要的滅火器材這是我們要來檢討來強化來補強這個地方不只是滅火器材老實說我本來想給你看這個日本的規定其實日本的規定就規定得更細緻它所有的設備器材跟我們的這個資訊是不是有辦法可以配合其實人家是規定得非常細的而我們現在看我們自己的\n\n10:05.515 --> 10:17.688\n直轄縣市消防車輛裝備及人力配置標準其實都十分的籠統啊根據車輛的裝備都只表示德市轄區特性消防人力等實際狀況配置那我覺得這個都太籠統了\n\n10:20.751 --> 10:44.346\n那我今天就舉例啦這是一個例子我當然沒有你專業但我就可以以我的角度就可以看出這樣的一個點那我希望能夠把政府已經掌握的資料可以變成未來你們在配置上甚至在訂更細緻標準的時候的一個參考這是我今天提出和別人不一樣的觀點也請兩個署長這邊可以跨部會的配合當然部長在這裡也請部長可以繼續的給予意見這是我今天的建議啦\n\n10:52.071 --> 11:02.737\n謝謝非常謝謝喬惠委員的質詢謝謝兩位署長希望兩位署長會後跟教育部你們一定要盤點一下好不好謝謝我在臨時提案也有提出來\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.631,"end":16.869,"text":"謝謝主席我們讓部長休息一下部長我先問兩位署長我想請消防署請消防署署長然後還有我們環境部化學署謝署長環境部化學署謝謝"},{"start":24.741,"end":47.333,"text":"兩位署長好我想請兩位署長上來不用太緊張啦我主要是要討論跨部會的事項所以今天主席這樣有安排我剛好可以藉這個機會一次來請教那今天既然我們要討論的主題其實是東華大學的化學室的實驗大火實驗室的大火是今天的質詢主題之一我就想請問先請問蕭署長蕭防署蕭署長想請問您"},{"start":51.395,"end":72.591,"text":"在這一次的化學實驗室的大火當中請問我們的環境部所提供的這個化學雲有幫助到嗎?你們有使用到嗎?學校的資料我們在化學雲有查到這個資料所以你們在救災的之前或者是任何時刻有用到這個化學雲的資料嗎?"},{"start":75.425,"end":98.189,"text":"目前在去年的屏東事件以後我們派遣的時候都會把這個資料呈現出來去年屏東開始有那去年屏東以後我們在盤點過以後資料更清楚而且會把物質的那個狀況更清楚的呈現所以簡單講嘛這次到底是有還是沒有有你就給人家肯定啊沒有的話現在是因為沒有所以是不好意思跟你同僚說嗎是這樣嗎有無界的資料有"},{"start":101.17,"end":110.757,"text":"對,理論上應該是這樣嘛因為我據我的了解應該是在消防隊員第一時間我是不知道非常細節的detail但是在消防隊員要去救災之前其實你們會依據環保署這個環境環境部這邊所提供的化學營提供的資料會出一份快報給您救災的隊員讓他們能夠掌握災害發生地的現況以至於能夠做出正確的判斷理論上是這樣對不對"},{"start":130.432,"end":150.365,"text":"所以這次有發揮功效嗎?知道這個狀況所以對救災有幫助?當然會掌握到現場狀況做必要的判斷那有你就大聲的說有然後幫人家這個環境部肯定一下也給他加分一下嘛對啊那這個有沒有什麼要改進的部分?"},{"start":152.813,"end":179.306,"text":"你們覺得有要改進的部分嗎?法定委員報告事實上這個事件發生以後分成兩個區塊我就單純救化學雲的這個部分好不好用?化學雲目前是已經存在著那當然我們也跟署長這邊在討論怎麼再透過更精進的方法來做強化這個還正在進行是跟委員會報告那同樣的問題請問署長啦也請問我們這個環境部化學署的署長請問一下你覺得你對這次化學雲提供的功能滿意嗎?"},{"start":181.409,"end":201.586,"text":"跟委員報告這次的提供是因為我們跟119的勤務指揮系統是結合的而且是在民營國際之後啊行政院有一些但是民營國際其實就是沒有通報嘛不是嗎我們現在就是調整那個那個等於是表現的方式啦危險的這些提到前面來位置的這些都更清楚"},{"start":202.006,"end":224.471,"text":"所以這一次是有改善有改善好 兩位署長都客氣啦老實講本席的立場是這樣子一向是政府如果有做得好其實應該要廣為讓民眾知道所以我們有調整有進步而且持續在改善大家可以安心公務員是真的有認真我為什麼今天特別挑這個因為我過去四年在環保我們在衛福衛福委員會嘛"},{"start":225.771,"end":254.094,"text":"其實就化學營的部分跟你討論過非常多次也是不停的精進要求改進尤其在民洋大火的部分就是特別針對讓我們的消防隊員要入場之前可以知道狀況能夠安心有保障保障我們的消防弟兄是最重要的一件事情嘛不是嗎所以我很想今天我來到了內政委員會我想知道我們努力這麼久的消防營到底對消防弟兄有沒有幫助"},{"start":256.417,"end":267.689,"text":"蕭署長到底是有還沒有這真的是怎麼沒有給一個痛快的答案這樣對啊跟委員回報啦這個表就是在去年事故以後行政部是啊我們那時候要求很久啊了解現場到底有哪些武士這個已經確定了是"},{"start":273.755,"end":299.141,"text":"那這次事故學校跟化學署、毒化應變中心也到現場做一個掌握跟了解目前的跨機關合作這個已經既然建立起來化學雲其實掌理了我們所有的各個行政機關不管是從內政消防經濟等等所有在掌管化學物品、危險物品、有毒物質通通都希望大家能夠存放到你這個部分來嘛那"},{"start":299.761,"end":329.341,"text":"因此各個機關也在由這個總庫去看我這次事件不管是食物中毒也好啦不管是這種消防也好啦等等可以從我們政府的大資料庫裡面去查找應該相對應的資料嘛這是環境部在總理這個化學營當中最重要的工作嘛過去我們討論非常多次我非常期待這次是對大夥是能夠有幫助的不過我也看到了說消防署呢其實對於這個圖表的表現方式因為"},{"start":330.161,"end":333.504,"text":"衝進去救援的時候可能要有更直觀的這些資訊你要再調整我也非常的贊成啦所以這是第一點我肯定你這邊做的調整從去年民漾大火之後到現在發揮功效這是第一點"},{"start":347.293,"end":354.997,"text":"不過我們現在可以看得出來我們除了希望這個化學雲這個政府的總資料庫對於救災第一線能夠有幫助之外其實對第二層我們也是希望它能夠提供幫助嘛第二層是什麼第二層是預防災害的發生好那從這個部分我就也要請教蕭署長蕭署長你覺得我們各縣市各縣市的消防設備配備足夠嗎公平嗎因為我現在看到這樣的報告其實"},{"start":375.566,"end":398.713,"text":"花蓮縣這次的救災裡面它的化學消防車似乎看起來是不夠的嘛這樣對花蓮縣是公平的嗎但那裡既然你從化學雲就可以看出有危險的物質是存放在花蓮縣該地花蓮縣卻沒有一個剛好可以足以匹配的救災車可以在那裡這樣合理嗎"},{"start":400.037,"end":419.75,"text":"是跟委員回報分成兩個部分學校本身跟教育部要去強化的預防火災跟自主建築跟設備那是一個部分沒錯那是一個部分另外一部分就是消防設備、消防車輛、訓練器材這個部分剛才委員特別垂詢那我們在這次事件本來化學與經費裡面就有一些經費器來補助"},{"start":423.532,"end":446.322,"text":"這次事件以後我們整個再盤點一下就後面的年度的經費裡面我們怎麼樣透過這次的災害的教訓得到什麼樣的優先順序的排列甚至有哪些滅火器材需要優先來配置這一次事件我們會整個再來檢討一下回覆給委員會事實上你同意化學雲可以這樣化學雲的資料可以這樣用嗎"},{"start":447.282,"end":475.423,"text":"是,各位委員報告,環環資料的表達應該是沒問題就是說平常可以運用對剛剛委員報告,委員槌詢的是說那再來救災器材的準備是啊,更提早預防的部分我們跟消防署還有,我們跨部會有提了最近一起的計畫到113新的計畫114到119其實行政院也核准了裡面就有消防署這邊也編了41億要補助地方政府有關於消防器材、車輛、設備的一個"},{"start":476.624,"end":484.11,"text":"他要怎麼去配備其實也可以根據你們的狀況嗎?你們提供的資料嗎?因為我們從花蓮縣的政事大會來看的話對我們非專業的人來講化學消防車和化學災害處理車這兩者到底有什麼樣的差別?坦白講你如果只有給我看說我有化學消防車我可能就給過了我就說這樣好你們已經足夠了結果不是啊"},{"start":500.863,"end":517.035,"text":"戲就下去以後才發現說我們先真的就是這樣跳開嘛剛剛學校要怎麼準備自己的實驗室安全那是另外一件事情我們現在在講的是消防署怎麼救災的部分結果你現在告訴我其實以這次的事件來講消防化學化學消防車是不夠的一定要化學災害處理車才有辦法處理結果現在去看花蓮縣有沒有這種車完全沒有啊"},{"start":525.942,"end":554.605,"text":"那如果沒有的話但東華大學的這個實驗室裡面雖然它是學校的部分但災害一旦發生就變成救災是你們啦那沒有配備怎麼可以呢這不是應該是這個很淺顯易懂的道理所以我才會說其實化學雲它可以提供的功用不只是在第一線的救災地區甚至是後面我們在整備器材的時候我們也應該要看各縣市各地區分配的物質不同"},{"start":555.546,"end":575.059,"text":"那你的整備器材也應該配合著這不是才是資料的最大運用嗎主長我這樣講合理吧是 感謝委員目前 剛剛跟委員回報就目前就整個在盤點就後面化學園的經費裡面我們針對哪些地方不光是車輛的問題還有滅火器材的問題所以滅火器材我們怎麼強化它的"},{"start":579.021,"end":605.175,"text":"針對不同場所的種類屬性來準備必要的滅火器材這是我們要來檢討來強化來補強這個地方不只是滅火器材老實說我本來想給你看這個日本的規定其實日本的規定就規定得更細緻它所有的設備器材跟我們的這個資訊是不是有辦法可以配合其實人家是規定得非常細的而我們現在看我們自己的"},{"start":605.515,"end":617.688,"text":"直轄縣市消防車輛裝備及人力配置標準其實都十分的籠統啊根據車輛的裝備都只表示德市轄區特性消防人力等實際狀況配置那我覺得這個都太籠統了"},{"start":620.751,"end":644.346,"text":"那我今天就舉例啦這是一個例子我當然沒有你專業但我就可以以我的角度就可以看出這樣的一個點那我希望能夠把政府已經掌握的資料可以變成未來你們在配置上甚至在訂更細緻標準的時候的一個參考這是我今天提出和別人不一樣的觀點也請兩個署長這邊可以跨部會的配合當然部長在這裡也請部長可以繼續的給予意見這是我今天的建議啦"},{"start":652.071,"end":662.737,"text":"謝謝 非常謝謝喬惠委員的質詢謝謝兩位署長希望兩位署長會後跟教育部你們一定要盤點一下好不好謝謝我在臨時提案也有提出來"}]}}}}