{"id":151161,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151161","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8a1755e5400c0ee9619292f6dd2d44dfefb6b28ae2d84df8ba9b0039caa7a67307c4a423e313cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"14:08:24 - 14:17:41","影片長度":"00:09:17","會議時間":"2024-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、內政部、法務部、教育部、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、文化部就「數位技術普及造成兒少性剝削案件增加之因應作為與現行政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-15","duration":557,"end_time":"2024-04-15T14:17:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-15T14:08:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1433,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（14時8分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長好。今天主要就是請教您，一方面是為什麼這次我們沒有辦法即時下架封網，另外是我們的修法方向。先針對去年我們修的法，我們去年都參與了這個修法，我自己也非常關心修法的成效，其實我們修的法都有空間讓主管機關不管是先行限制瀏覽或移除，而且當時我要求24小時，你們後來是說沒有辦法在條文中，所以是規範在施行細則裡面。當時的法條前面是第八條，部長也知道，後面是說如果網路業者沒有即時下架，主管機關令其限期改善，如果沒有限期改善，就是限制接取了。大家都有談到這個非法論壇在2021年就曾經被封網，但2024年還在傷害兒少，無法接受！我想請問部長，我們去年修的法第四十七條，這裡面的主管機關是誰？就是限期改善，如果不改善，就限制接取的主管機關是指誰？"],["張司長秀鴛：NCC和地方政府。"],["范委員雲：是NCC，那在這次黃子佼的這個論壇就是NCC嘛！"],["張司長秀鴛：不是，黃子佼他那個是網際網路，是回到申訴人、被害人的所在地的縣市政府。"],["范委員雲：那這個縣市政府是誰去通知他們？"],["張司長秀鴛：我們接受到民眾申訴之後，我們就會通知目的事業主管機關，包括縣市政府，還有網路平台業者。"],["范委員雲：好，對網路平台業者，是誰令其限期改善？就是主責還是在衛福部嘛……"],["張司長秀鴛：目的事業主管機關。"],["范委員雲：那令其罰款的部分是？你剛剛講的在這個案子是地方主管機關。"],["張司長秀鴛：對。"],["范委員雲：地方主管機關你們接觸了沒有？"],["張司長秀鴛：有。"],["范委員雲：到底問題出在哪裡？"],["張司長秀鴛：在110年司法做強制動作之後，它就換了一個網域，後來只要被害人民眾有跟我們的影像處理中心申訴，那當時這個網站都會配合移除……"],["范委員雲：我們不要講當時了，黃子佼的案子在春假期間就出來了嘛，你們衛福部沒有意識到你們有責任嗎？其實我們去年修的法有給你們這個權限啊！"],["張司長秀鴛：因為要有被害人出來跟我們申訴。"],["范委員雲：你的意思是說因為沒有被害人？"],["張司長秀鴛：之前有被害人，但是那個網站在第一時間就會移除下架。"],["范委員雲：對，但是移除下架之後，它沒有改善，或是改善了之後又再犯，依照第四十七條是屆期未改善者，得按次處罰，並得令其限制接取。我不能理解的事情是，你上次叫它下架，它下架一部分之後，後來又發生，這不就是屆期未改善嗎？難道這就是它有改善？我們在第四十七條是不是給這個空間了？請問部長，您也是唸法律的。"],["薛部長瑞元：第一個，我不知道當時在解釋這個目的事業主管機關這一條裡面指的是NCC，還是衛福部……"],["范委員雲：部長！您不知道第四十七條主責是誰，就表示您不夠在乎這件事吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是，我個人從這個文字來看是比較像是衛福部。"],["范委員雲：文字看起來？我其實也研究了很久，但是後來你們的施行細則直接說第四十七條就是NCC，電信事業主管機關。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是如果是NCC的話，又跟縣市政府連不起來……"],["范委員雲：那就是如果是個別網路公司的話，就是看那個公司是在哪裡登記，這次這個公司是在哪個地方政府登記？"],["張司長秀鴛：因為它沒有在臺灣落地，所以由申訴人所在地的縣市政府。"],["范委員雲：申訴人的所在地，你們是不是可以講話直接一點？如果以第四十七條來看，我們當時修法的時候就給了你們依照情況嚴重時的處置，譬如它未改善的話，得令其限制接取。所以我還是覺得部長對外所講的，就是施行細則第七條，說什麼通知等等的，我覺得其實你們的施行細則訂得並不好，反而就是把自己原來的權限架空了，你回來看母法，當時的母法我要求24小時，你們沒有用，你們要求放在施行細則，可是你們的施行細則反而越訂越緊，第七條規定到什麼找不到，結果最後還要依照行政執行法規定即時強制。所以我可不可以要求部長把你們的施行細則，當然我們如果修母法讓它更清楚，不要有這個模糊空間，我也非常支持，可是我認為我們去年修的法就給衛福部跟NCC等這個空間，主要發動的還是在你們衛福部，你們訂的施行細則是不是能夠在兩週內就改善？在我們修法前。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員是說施行細則？"],["范委員雲：施行細則，因為你們的施行細則反而還給自己限制得更緊。"],["薛部長瑞元：我知道、我知道。"],["范委員雲：還要什麼未送達阻止犯罪，然後才能夠即時強制。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，那個是要修施行細則。"],["范委員雲：施行細則也該修。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是施行細則要修的話，我是比較建議這樣，就是母法修了之後，施行細則再來修，因為可能不只是這幾條。"],["范委員雲：當然不只是這幾個，我自己就針對母法要求再更強化，因為我發現我們修的認為已經補好了，可是你們自己的施行細則又綁了自己的手腳，又陷入一個法律的迷障中，反而不如我剛剛所講，你回去看我們修的母法，其實就是要求在最後的時候強制並且限制接取。","另外，當然這次大家對刑罰的部分，我認為也是有一些空間再改善，請看我發的臉書，我認為這就是「無故重製」，所以司法體系這次為什麼沒有用比較重的？我們回來看兒少性剝削防制條例，對於這種下載，在法律上可以叫做重製兒少性剝削影像，的確沒有放在第三十八條的一年以上七年以下相對比較重的刑責，我認為可以把重製，就是這一類的下載，它並不是單純的擁有，而是付費會員加上下載，另外，兒少性剝削防制條例第四十四條原本有一個付費，就是所謂的支付對價觀覽兒少性交或猥褻處一年以下徒刑，可是沒有去罰支付對價觀覽兒少性行為的影像，這個部分沒有規範，這個洞是不是也應該補上？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個應該要補。"],["范委員雲：最後我就四點訴求，我認為我們這一次修法應該讓這個網更密一點，沒有一點模糊不處理的空間。第一是對價觀覽，只要是兒少性影像，還有重製兒少性影像，都要入法；第二是應該加重罰則，不要讓性剝削常態化；第三是應該修法再強化，雖然我認為這次主管機關本來就可以斷網，但是這個模糊空間不要再有，就應該要更強化。最後，我也主張這一類的，特別是兒少性影像，要有犯罪資料庫，其實這些網路跨國公司都有能力，就是用他們的科技能力去找出來，一旦這個影像又出來被上架的時候，可以立刻杜絕重複傳播，部長是不是可以支持我提的這四個修法方向？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個方向我是可以支持，但是最後一個可能還要加上讓主管機關能夠有這樣的權限。"],["范委員雲：當然，部長是唸法律的，請你也一起來研究相關的法條，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["范委員雲：你們多久之內可以給我們辦公室關於這四點修法的相關評估報告呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會儘量，應該很快在委員會裡面……"],["主席：就會修法。"],["范委員雲：我也馬上會提我的版本，我希望你們……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會準備好，因為如果要按照程序，從行政院再過來的話，可能會很慢。"],["范委員雲：好，那你們的版本多久之內可以送到行政院？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果委員可以同意的話，也許我們就行政院會這個程序不走……"],["主席：可能委員會要直接處理了，等不到行政院的。"],["范委員雲：好，委員會直接處理也OK，但是你們的版本也儘快送出來，好嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會參考……"],["范委員雲：我希望能夠參考我今天所提的這四項主張，並且可以納入好嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長，一起加油。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請楊曜委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","洪申翰","黃珊珊","黃捷","洪孟楷","張雅琳","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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\"text\": \"我認為可以把重製就是這一類的下載它並不是單純的擁有它是一個付費的費源加上它下載另外一個我們的兒少性剝削第47條原本有一個付費就是所謂的支持兌價支付兌價關攬兒少的性交或猥褻的話處一年以下可是沒有去罰支付兌價關攬兒少性行為的影像\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 414.365, \"end\": 414.525, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 414.525, \"end\": 414.645, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 414.645, \"end\": 414.805, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 414.805, \"end\": 415.305, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 415.305, \"end\": 416.045, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"製\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 416.045, \"end\": 416.145, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 416.145, \"end\": 416.426, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 416.426, \"end\": 416.806, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"類\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 416.806, \"end\": 417.186, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 417.186, \"end\": 417.686, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 554.536, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 554.536, \"end\": 554.656, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 554.656, \"end\": 554.857, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"油\", \"start\": 554.857, \"end\": 555.957, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 555.957, \"end\": 555.977, \"score\": 0.01}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,905\n謝謝主席有請部長好有請薛部長\n\n2\n00:00:14,372 --> 00:00:38,292\n午安好部長好我想今天主要就是請教您一方面就是說為什麼這次我們沒有辦法及時下架封網還有再來我們修法的方向那先針對就是去年我們修的法因為我想我們去年都參與了這個修法那我自己本身就是說也非常的關心它的成效那我回來看我們所修的法那其實我們修的法\n\n3\n00:00:38,832 --> 00:00:55,793\n都有這個空間讓主管機關不管是先行限制瀏覽或移除而且當時我要求24小時然後你們後來就是說沒有辦法在條文中所以規範在施行細則裡面那當時我們的法條前面是第8條部長知道嗎\n\n4\n00:00:56,374 --> 00:01:22,614\n後面就是說如果網絡業者沒有及時下架主管機關令期限期改善那如果沒有限期改善就是限制接取了那就是那大家都有談到這個非法論談2021年就曾經被封網2024還在傷害兒少無法接受我想請問部長那我們去年修的法第47條就是給就是說這裡面的主管機關是誰\n\n5\n00:01:24,705 --> 00:01:53,468\n就是限期改善並如果不改善就是限制接取的主管機關是指誰?第47條NCC跟地方政府好NCC那在這次的這個黃子椒的這個論壇就是NCC嗎?不是黃子椒他那種是網際網路是回到申訴人被害人的所在地的縣市政府\n\n6\n00:01:54,275 --> 00:02:22,803\n所以那這個縣市政府是誰去通知他們我們會接受到民眾申訴之後那我們就會通知目的縣主管機關包括縣市政府還有網路平台業者那就是網路平台業者的話那是誰令其限期改善就是主責還是在衛福部嘛那令其罰款的部分是你剛講的在這個案子中是地方主管機關那地方主管機關你們接觸了沒有\n\n7\n00:02:23,303 --> 00:02:41,902\n有然後到底問題出在哪裡他在110年司法做強制動作之後他就換了一個網域後來他只要被害人民眾他有跟我們的影像處理中心申訴那當時這個網站\n\n8\n00:02:43,424 --> 00:02:43,884\n因為這要有被害人出來跟我們商討\n\n9\n00:03:00,379 --> 00:03:25,679\n之前有被害人但是呢在那個網站他都會第一時間就會移除下架對但是他移除下架之後他沒有限期改善他改善了之後又再犯那依照第47條借其為改善者得案次處罰並得令其限制接取我不能理解的事情就是說他就是說你上次叫他下架他下架了一部分之後後來又發生不就是借其為改善嗎\n\n10\n00:03:26,460 --> 00:03:33,314\n那這個難道就是他有改善?就是我們47條是不是給這個空間了?請問部長,部長您也是念法律的\n\n11\n00:03:35,126 --> 00:04:00,893\n一個我不知道當時在解釋這個目的事業主管機關這一條裡面指的是NCC還是衛福部部長您不知道47條主的是誰就表示您不夠在乎這件事吧不是我個人是從這個文字來看的話是比較像是衛福部啦這個這個文字看起來我其實也研究了很久但是後來你們的施行細則直接說他47條就是NCC\n\n12\n00:04:05,176 --> 00:04:26,856\n電信事業主管機關但是如果是NCC的話就跟那個縣市政府要留不起來那就是如果是個別的網路公司的話就是看那個公司是在哪裡登記那這次這個公司是在哪個地方政府登記因為他沒有在台灣落地所以由申訴人的所在地的縣市政府\n\n13\n00:04:27,681 --> 00:04:43,431\n先是申訴人的所在地所以我想你們是不是可以講話直接一點但是如果以47條來看的話那我們當時修法的時候就給了你們依照情況嚴重的時候譬如說他未改善的話得令其限制接取嗎\n\n14\n00:04:44,432 --> 00:05:00,844\n所以我還是覺得第一個我後來看了就是說部長對外所講的就是施行細則第7條說什麼通知等等的話我覺得你們其實施行細則訂的並不好反而就是把自己原來的權限架空了\n\n15\n00:05:01,144 --> 00:05:26,406\n你回來看母法我們當時的母法我要求24小時你們沒有用你們要求放在施行細則可是你施行細則反而越訂越緊到什麼找不到通訊第7條結果最後還要依照行政執行法規定及時強制所以我可不可以要求部長你把你們的施行細則當然我們能夠修母法讓他更清楚不要有這個模糊空間的話我也非常的支持\n\n16\n00:05:26,986 --> 00:05:38,255\n其實我認為我們去年修了法就給衛福部跟NC等這個空間那主要發動的還是在你們衛福部嘛那你們定的適應性則是不是能夠在兩週內就改善\n\n17\n00:05:39,875 --> 00:06:04,303\n在我們修法前施行細則施行細則因為你先是給自己還限制的更緊我知道我知道還有什麼未送達阻止犯罪然後才能夠及時強制那個是要修施行細則施行細則也該修對但是施行細則要修的話我是比較建議是這樣我們母法修了之後施行細則再來修可能不只是這幾點\n\n18\n00:06:05,303 --> 00:06:25,274\n當然不止這幾個我自己就針對母法要再更強化因為我發現就是說我們修的認為補好了可是你們自己的適應性則又綁了自己的手腳就陷入一個法律的一個迷藏中反而不如我剛剛所講你回去看我們修的母法其實就是要求你在最後的時候就是要就是說強制然後限制接取\n\n19\n00:06:25,714 --> 00:06:53,505\n那當然就是說這次大家對刑罰的部分我認為也是有一些空間在改善我們回來看就是我發的臉書我認為這就是無辜重製所以司法的體系這一次為什麼沒有用比較重的但我們回來看兒少性剝削防制條件對於這種下載那在法律上可以叫做重製兒少剝削性影像的話的確是沒有放在第38條一年以上七年以下相對比較重的刑責\n\n20\n00:06:54,365 --> 00:07:21,151\n我認為可以把重製就是這一類的下載它並不是單純的擁有它是一個付費的費源加上它下載另外一個我們的兒少性剝削第47條原本有一個付費就是所謂的支持兌價支付兌價關攬兒少的性交或猥褻的話處一年以下可是沒有去罰支付兌價關攬兒少性行為的影像\n\n21\n00:07:22,290 --> 00:07:49,782\n這個部分沒有規範那這個洞是不是也應該補上這應該要補那最後一個我想我就五點訴求我認為我們這一次修法應該讓這個網更密一點沒有一點模糊不處理的空間一個就是對價觀覽只要是兒少性影像還有重置兒少性影像都要入法第二個還是應該加重罰則不要讓這個性剝削常態化第三個應該修法再強化雖然我認為這次主管機關本來就可以斷網\n\n22\n00:07:50,322 --> 00:08:15,348\n但是據說這個模糊空間不要再有就應該要更強化最後我也主張這一類的特別是兒少性影像要有犯罪資料庫那其實這些網路的跨國公司都有能力就是說用他的科技能力去找出一旦這個影像又出來被上架的時候可以立刻杜絕重複傳播那部長是不是可以支持我提的這四個修法方向\n\n23\n00:08:16,148 --> 00:08:33,722\n這個方向我是可以支持但最後那一個的話可能還要加上讓主管機關能夠有這樣子的權限當然那請部長您是念法律的也下來一起研究相關的法條好不好那你們多久之內可以給我們辦公室一個關於這4點的一個修法的相關的評估報告呢\n\n24\n00:08:34,252 --> 00:08:52,359\n我們會盡量因為應該很快在委員會裡面是不是就會有那個條文就我也馬上會提我的版本那我希望你們也那我們會準備好啦因為如果要按照程序從行政院再過來的話可能會很慢好那多久之內可以送到行政院你們的版本\n\n25\n00:08:54,020 --> 00:09:15,977\n如果說委員是可以同意的話也許我們就就行政院這個可能委員會要直接處理了等不到行政院那委員會直接處理的話據說也OK喔但是你們的版本也盡快送出來好嗎那我希望能夠參考我今天所提的這四項主張可以納入好嗎好謝謝部長一起加油好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5840\t8905\t謝謝主席有請部長好有請薛部長\n14372\t38292\t午安好部長好我想今天主要就是請教您一方面就是說為什麼這次我們沒有辦法及時下架封網還有再來我們修法的方向那先針對就是去年我們修的法因為我想我們去年都參與了這個修法那我自己本身就是說也非常的關心它的成效那我回來看我們所修的法那其實我們修的法\n38832\t55793\t都有這個空間讓主管機關不管是先行限制瀏覽或移除而且當時我要求24小時然後你們後來就是說沒有辦法在條文中所以規範在施行細則裡面那當時我們的法條前面是第8條部長知道嗎\n56374\t82614\t後面就是說如果網絡業者沒有及時下架主管機關令期限期改善那如果沒有限期改善就是限制接取了那就是那大家都有談到這個非法論談2021年就曾經被封網2024還在傷害兒少無法接受我想請問部長那我們去年修的法第47條就是給就是說這裡面的主管機關是誰\n84705\t113468\t就是限期改善並如果不改善就是限制接取的主管機關是指誰?第47條NCC跟地方政府好NCC那在這次的這個黃子椒的這個論壇就是NCC嗎?不是黃子椒他那種是網際網路是回到申訴人被害人的所在地的縣市政府\n114275\t142803\t所以那這個縣市政府是誰去通知他們我們會接受到民眾申訴之後那我們就會通知目的縣主管機關包括縣市政府還有網路平台業者那就是網路平台業者的話那是誰令其限期改善就是主責還是在衛福部嘛那令其罰款的部分是你剛講的在這個案子中是地方主管機關那地方主管機關你們接觸了沒有\n143303\t161902\t有然後到底問題出在哪裡他在110年司法做強制動作之後他就換了一個網域後來他只要被害人民眾他有跟我們的影像處理中心申訴那當時這個網站\n163424\t163884\t因為這要有被害人出來跟我們商討\n180379\t205679\t之前有被害人但是呢在那個網站他都會第一時間就會移除下架對但是他移除下架之後他沒有限期改善他改善了之後又再犯那依照第47條借其為改善者得案次處罰並得令其限制接取我不能理解的事情就是說他就是說你上次叫他下架他下架了一部分之後後來又發生不就是借其為改善嗎\n206460\t213314\t那這個難道就是他有改善?就是我們47條是不是給這個空間了?請問部長,部長您也是念法律的\n215126\t240893\t一個我不知道當時在解釋這個目的事業主管機關這一條裡面指的是NCC還是衛福部部長您不知道47條主的是誰就表示您不夠在乎這件事吧不是我個人是從這個文字來看的話是比較像是衛福部啦這個這個文字看起來我其實也研究了很久但是後來你們的施行細則直接說他47條就是NCC\n245176\t266856\t電信事業主管機關但是如果是NCC的話就跟那個縣市政府要留不起來那就是如果是個別的網路公司的話就是看那個公司是在哪裡登記那這次這個公司是在哪個地方政府登記因為他沒有在台灣落地所以由申訴人的所在地的縣市政府\n267681\t283431\t先是申訴人的所在地所以我想你們是不是可以講話直接一點但是如果以47條來看的話那我們當時修法的時候就給了你們依照情況嚴重的時候譬如說他未改善的話得令其限制接取嗎\n284432\t300844\t所以我還是覺得第一個我後來看了就是說部長對外所講的就是施行細則第7條說什麼通知等等的話我覺得你們其實施行細則訂的並不好反而就是把自己原來的權限架空了\n301144\t326406\t你回來看母法我們當時的母法我要求24小時你們沒有用你們要求放在施行細則可是你施行細則反而越訂越緊到什麼找不到通訊第7條結果最後還要依照行政執行法規定及時強制所以我可不可以要求部長你把你們的施行細則當然我們能夠修母法讓他更清楚不要有這個模糊空間的話我也非常的支持\n326986\t338255\t其實我認為我們去年修了法就給衛福部跟NC等這個空間那主要發動的還是在你們衛福部嘛那你們定的適應性則是不是能夠在兩週內就改善\n339875\t364303\t在我們修法前施行細則施行細則因為你先是給自己還限制的更緊我知道我知道還有什麼未送達阻止犯罪然後才能夠及時強制那個是要修施行細則施行細則也該修對但是施行細則要修的話我是比較建議是這樣我們母法修了之後施行細則再來修可能不只是這幾點\n365303\t385274\t當然不止這幾個我自己就針對母法要再更強化因為我發現就是說我們修的認為補好了可是你們自己的適應性則又綁了自己的手腳就陷入一個法律的一個迷藏中反而不如我剛剛所講你回去看我們修的母法其實就是要求你在最後的時候就是要就是說強制然後限制接取\n385714\t413505\t那當然就是說這次大家對刑罰的部分我認為也是有一些空間在改善我們回來看就是我發的臉書我認為這就是無辜重製所以司法的體系這一次為什麼沒有用比較重的但我們回來看兒少性剝削防制條件對於這種下載那在法律上可以叫做重製兒少剝削性影像的話的確是沒有放在第38條一年以上七年以下相對比較重的刑責\n414365\t441151\t我認為可以把重製就是這一類的下載它並不是單純的擁有它是一個付費的費源加上它下載另外一個我們的兒少性剝削第47條原本有一個付費就是所謂的支持兌價支付兌價關攬兒少的性交或猥褻的話處一年以下可是沒有去罰支付兌價關攬兒少性行為的影像\n442290\t469782\t這個部分沒有規範那這個洞是不是也應該補上這應該要補那最後一個我想我就五點訴求我認為我們這一次修法應該讓這個網更密一點沒有一點模糊不處理的空間一個就是對價觀覽只要是兒少性影像還有重置兒少性影像都要入法第二個還是應該加重罰則不要讓這個性剝削常態化第三個應該修法再強化雖然我認為這次主管機關本來就可以斷網\n470322\t495348\t但是據說這個模糊空間不要再有就應該要更強化最後我也主張這一類的特別是兒少性影像要有犯罪資料庫那其實這些網路的跨國公司都有能力就是說用他的科技能力去找出一旦這個影像又出來被上架的時候可以立刻杜絕重複傳播那部長是不是可以支持我提的這四個修法方向\n496148\t513722\t這個方向我是可以支持但最後那一個的話可能還要加上讓主管機關能夠有這樣子的權限當然那請部長您是念法律的也下來一起研究相關的法條好不好那你們多久之內可以給我們辦公室一個關於這4點的一個修法的相關的評估報告呢\n514252\t532359\t我們會盡量因為應該很快在委員會裡面是不是就會有那個條文就我也馬上會提我的版本那我希望你們也那我們會準備好啦因為如果要按照程序從行政院再過來的話可能會很慢好那多久之內可以送到行政院你們的版本\n534020\t555977\t如果說委員是可以同意的話也許我們就就行政院這個可能委員會要直接處理了等不到行政院那委員會直接處理的話據說也OK喔但是你們的版本也盡快送出來好嗎那我希望能夠參考我今天所提的這四項主張可以納入好嗎好謝謝部長一起加油好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請部長好有請薛部長\n午安好部長好我想今天主要就是請教您一方面就是說為什麼這次我們沒有辦法及時下架封網還有再來我們修法的方向那先針對就是去年我們修的法因為我想我們去年都參與了這個修法那我自己本身就是說也非常的關心它的成效那我回來看我們所修的法那其實我們修的法\n都有這個空間讓主管機關不管是先行限制瀏覽或移除而且當時我要求24小時然後你們後來就是說沒有辦法在條文中所以規範在施行細則裡面那當時我們的法條前面是第8條部長知道嗎\n後面就是說如果網絡業者沒有及時下架主管機關令期限期改善那如果沒有限期改善就是限制接取了那就是那大家都有談到這個非法論談2021年就曾經被封網2024還在傷害兒少無法接受我想請問部長那我們去年修的法第47條就是給就是說這裡面的主管機關是誰\n就是限期改善並如果不改善就是限制接取的主管機關是指誰?第47條NCC跟地方政府好NCC那在這次的這個黃子椒的這個論壇就是NCC嗎?不是黃子椒他那種是網際網路是回到申訴人被害人的所在地的縣市政府\n所以那這個縣市政府是誰去通知他們我們會接受到民眾申訴之後那我們就會通知目的縣主管機關包括縣市政府還有網路平台業者那就是網路平台業者的話那是誰令其限期改善就是主責還是在衛福部嘛那令其罰款的部分是你剛講的在這個案子中是地方主管機關那地方主管機關你們接觸了沒有\n有然後到底問題出在哪裡他在110年司法做強制動作之後他就換了一個網域後來他只要被害人民眾他有跟我們的影像處理中心申訴那當時這個網站\n因為這要有被害人出來跟我們商討\n之前有被害人但是呢在那個網站他都會第一時間就會移除下架對但是他移除下架之後他沒有限期改善他改善了之後又再犯那依照第47條借其為改善者得案次處罰並得令其限制接取我不能理解的事情就是說他就是說你上次叫他下架他下架了一部分之後後來又發生不就是借其為改善嗎\n那這個難道就是他有改善?就是我們47條是不是給這個空間了?請問部長,部長您也是念法律的\n一個我不知道當時在解釋這個目的事業主管機關這一條裡面指的是NCC還是衛福部部長您不知道47條主的是誰就表示您不夠在乎這件事吧不是我個人是從這個文字來看的話是比較像是衛福部啦這個這個文字看起來我其實也研究了很久但是後來你們的施行細則直接說他47條就是NCC\n電信事業主管機關但是如果是NCC的話就跟那個縣市政府要留不起來那就是如果是個別的網路公司的話就是看那個公司是在哪裡登記那這次這個公司是在哪個地方政府登記因為他沒有在台灣落地所以由申訴人的所在地的縣市政府\n先是申訴人的所在地所以我想你們是不是可以講話直接一點但是如果以47條來看的話那我們當時修法的時候就給了你們依照情況嚴重的時候譬如說他未改善的話得令其限制接取嗎\n所以我還是覺得第一個我後來看了就是說部長對外所講的就是施行細則第7條說什麼通知等等的話我覺得你們其實施行細則訂的並不好反而就是把自己原來的權限架空了\n你回來看母法我們當時的母法我要求24小時你們沒有用你們要求放在施行細則可是你施行細則反而越訂越緊到什麼找不到通訊第7條結果最後還要依照行政執行法規定及時強制所以我可不可以要求部長你把你們的施行細則當然我們能夠修母法讓他更清楚不要有這個模糊空間的話我也非常的支持\n其實我認為我們去年修了法就給衛福部跟NC等這個空間那主要發動的還是在你們衛福部嘛那你們定的適應性則是不是能夠在兩週內就改善\n在我們修法前施行細則施行細則因為你先是給自己還限制的更緊我知道我知道還有什麼未送達阻止犯罪然後才能夠及時強制那個是要修施行細則施行細則也該修對但是施行細則要修的話我是比較建議是這樣我們母法修了之後施行細則再來修可能不只是這幾點\n當然不止這幾個我自己就針對母法要再更強化因為我發現就是說我們修的認為補好了可是你們自己的適應性則又綁了自己的手腳就陷入一個法律的一個迷藏中反而不如我剛剛所講你回去看我們修的母法其實就是要求你在最後的時候就是要就是說強制然後限制接取\n那當然就是說這次大家對刑罰的部分我認為也是有一些空間在改善我們回來看就是我發的臉書我認為這就是無辜重製所以司法的體系這一次為什麼沒有用比較重的但我們回來看兒少性剝削防制條件對於這種下載那在法律上可以叫做重製兒少剝削性影像的話的確是沒有放在第38條一年以上七年以下相對比較重的刑責\n我認為可以把重製就是這一類的下載它並不是單純的擁有它是一個付費的費源加上它下載另外一個我們的兒少性剝削第47條原本有一個付費就是所謂的支持兌價支付兌價關攬兒少的性交或猥褻的話處一年以下可是沒有去罰支付兌價關攬兒少性行為的影像\n這個部分沒有規範那這個洞是不是也應該補上這應該要補那最後一個我想我就五點訴求我認為我們這一次修法應該讓這個網更密一點沒有一點模糊不處理的空間一個就是對價觀覽只要是兒少性影像還有重置兒少性影像都要入法第二個還是應該加重罰則不要讓這個性剝削常態化第三個應該修法再強化雖然我認為這次主管機關本來就可以斷網\n但是據說這個模糊空間不要再有就應該要更強化最後我也主張這一類的特別是兒少性影像要有犯罪資料庫那其實這些網路的跨國公司都有能力就是說用他的科技能力去找出一旦這個影像又出來被上架的時候可以立刻杜絕重複傳播那部長是不是可以支持我提的這四個修法方向\n這個方向我是可以支持但最後那一個的話可能還要加上讓主管機關能夠有這樣子的權限當然那請部長您是念法律的也下來一起研究相關的法條好不好那你們多久之內可以給我們辦公室一個關於這4點的一個修法的相關的評估報告呢\n我們會盡量因為應該很快在委員會裡面是不是就會有那個條文就我也馬上會提我的版本那我希望你們也那我們會準備好啦因為如果要按照程序從行政院再過來的話可能會很慢好那多久之內可以送到行政院你們的版本\n如果說委員是可以同意的話也許我們就就行政院這個可能委員會要直接處理了等不到行政院那委員會直接處理的話據說也OK喔但是你們的版本也盡快送出來好嗎那我希望能夠參考我今天所提的這四項主張可以納入好嗎好謝謝部長一起加油好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.840 --> 00:08.905\n謝謝主席有請部長好有請薛部長\n\n00:14.372 --> 00:38.292\n午安好部長好我想今天主要就是請教您一方面就是說為什麼這次我們沒有辦法及時下架封網還有再來我們修法的方向那先針對就是去年我們修的法因為我想我們去年都參與了這個修法那我自己本身就是說也非常的關心它的成效那我回來看我們所修的法那其實我們修的法\n\n00:38.832 --> 00:55.793\n都有這個空間讓主管機關不管是先行限制瀏覽或移除而且當時我要求24小時然後你們後來就是說沒有辦法在條文中所以規範在施行細則裡面那當時我們的法條前面是第8條部長知道嗎\n\n00:56.374 --> 01:22.614\n後面就是說如果網絡業者沒有及時下架主管機關令期限期改善那如果沒有限期改善就是限制接取了那就是那大家都有談到這個非法論談2021年就曾經被封網2024還在傷害兒少無法接受我想請問部長那我們去年修的法第47條就是給就是說這裡面的主管機關是誰\n\n01:24.705 --> 01:53.468\n就是限期改善並如果不改善就是限制接取的主管機關是指誰?第47條NCC跟地方政府好NCC那在這次的這個黃子椒的這個論壇就是NCC嗎?不是黃子椒他那種是網際網路是回到申訴人被害人的所在地的縣市政府\n\n01:54.275 --> 02:22.803\n所以那這個縣市政府是誰去通知他們我們會接受到民眾申訴之後那我們就會通知目的縣主管機關包括縣市政府還有網路平台業者那就是網路平台業者的話那是誰令其限期改善就是主責還是在衛福部嘛那令其罰款的部分是你剛講的在這個案子中是地方主管機關那地方主管機關你們接觸了沒有\n\n02:23.303 --> 02:41.902\n有然後到底問題出在哪裡他在110年司法做強制動作之後他就換了一個網域後來他只要被害人民眾他有跟我們的影像處理中心申訴那當時這個網站\n\n02:43.424 --> 02:43.884\n因為這要有被害人出來跟我們商討\n\n03:00.379 --> 03:25.679\n之前有被害人但是呢在那個網站他都會第一時間就會移除下架對但是他移除下架之後他沒有限期改善他改善了之後又再犯那依照第47條借其為改善者得案次處罰並得令其限制接取我不能理解的事情就是說他就是說你上次叫他下架他下架了一部分之後後來又發生不就是借其為改善嗎\n\n03:26.460 --> 03:33.314\n那這個難道就是他有改善?就是我們47條是不是給這個空間了?請問部長,部長您也是念法律的\n\n03:35.126 --> 04:00.893\n一個我不知道當時在解釋這個目的事業主管機關這一條裡面指的是NCC還是衛福部部長您不知道47條主的是誰就表示您不夠在乎這件事吧不是我個人是從這個文字來看的話是比較像是衛福部啦這個這個文字看起來我其實也研究了很久但是後來你們的施行細則直接說他47條就是NCC\n\n04:05.176 --> 04:26.856\n電信事業主管機關但是如果是NCC的話就跟那個縣市政府要留不起來那就是如果是個別的網路公司的話就是看那個公司是在哪裡登記那這次這個公司是在哪個地方政府登記因為他沒有在台灣落地所以由申訴人的所在地的縣市政府\n\n04:27.681 --> 04:43.431\n先是申訴人的所在地所以我想你們是不是可以講話直接一點但是如果以47條來看的話那我們當時修法的時候就給了你們依照情況嚴重的時候譬如說他未改善的話得令其限制接取嗎\n\n04:44.432 --> 05:00.844\n所以我還是覺得第一個我後來看了就是說部長對外所講的就是施行細則第7條說什麼通知等等的話我覺得你們其實施行細則訂的並不好反而就是把自己原來的權限架空了\n\n05:01.144 --> 05:26.406\n你回來看母法我們當時的母法我要求24小時你們沒有用你們要求放在施行細則可是你施行細則反而越訂越緊到什麼找不到通訊第7條結果最後還要依照行政執行法規定及時強制所以我可不可以要求部長你把你們的施行細則當然我們能夠修母法讓他更清楚不要有這個模糊空間的話我也非常的支持\n\n05:26.986 --> 05:38.255\n其實我認為我們去年修了法就給衛福部跟NC等這個空間那主要發動的還是在你們衛福部嘛那你們定的適應性則是不是能夠在兩週內就改善\n\n05:39.875 --> 06:04.303\n在我們修法前施行細則施行細則因為你先是給自己還限制的更緊我知道我知道還有什麼未送達阻止犯罪然後才能夠及時強制那個是要修施行細則施行細則也該修對但是施行細則要修的話我是比較建議是這樣我們母法修了之後施行細則再來修可能不只是這幾點\n\n06:05.303 --> 06:25.274\n當然不止這幾個我自己就針對母法要再更強化因為我發現就是說我們修的認為補好了可是你們自己的適應性則又綁了自己的手腳就陷入一個法律的一個迷藏中反而不如我剛剛所講你回去看我們修的母法其實就是要求你在最後的時候就是要就是說強制然後限制接取\n\n06:25.714 --> 06:53.505\n那當然就是說這次大家對刑罰的部分我認為也是有一些空間在改善我們回來看就是我發的臉書我認為這就是無辜重製所以司法的體系這一次為什麼沒有用比較重的但我們回來看兒少性剝削防制條件對於這種下載那在法律上可以叫做重製兒少剝削性影像的話的確是沒有放在第38條一年以上七年以下相對比較重的刑責\n\n06:54.365 --> 07:21.151\n我認為可以把重製就是這一類的下載它並不是單純的擁有它是一個付費的費源加上它下載另外一個我們的兒少性剝削第47條原本有一個付費就是所謂的支持兌價支付兌價關攬兒少的性交或猥褻的話處一年以下可是沒有去罰支付兌價關攬兒少性行為的影像\n\n07:22.290 --> 07:49.782\n這個部分沒有規範那這個洞是不是也應該補上這應該要補那最後一個我想我就五點訴求我認為我們這一次修法應該讓這個網更密一點沒有一點模糊不處理的空間一個就是對價觀覽只要是兒少性影像還有重置兒少性影像都要入法第二個還是應該加重罰則不要讓這個性剝削常態化第三個應該修法再強化雖然我認為這次主管機關本來就可以斷網\n\n07:50.322 --> 08:15.348\n但是據說這個模糊空間不要再有就應該要更強化最後我也主張這一類的特別是兒少性影像要有犯罪資料庫那其實這些網路的跨國公司都有能力就是說用他的科技能力去找出一旦這個影像又出來被上架的時候可以立刻杜絕重複傳播那部長是不是可以支持我提的這四個修法方向\n\n08:16.148 --> 08:33.722\n這個方向我是可以支持但最後那一個的話可能還要加上讓主管機關能夠有這樣子的權限當然那請部長您是念法律的也下來一起研究相關的法條好不好那你們多久之內可以給我們辦公室一個關於這4點的一個修法的相關的評估報告呢\n\n08:34.252 --> 08:52.359\n我們會盡量因為應該很快在委員會裡面是不是就會有那個條文就我也馬上會提我的版本那我希望你們也那我們會準備好啦因為如果要按照程序從行政院再過來的話可能會很慢好那多久之內可以送到行政院你們的版本\n\n08:54.020 --> 09:15.977\n如果說委員是可以同意的話也許我們就就行政院這個可能委員會要直接處理了等不到行政院那委員會直接處理的話據說也OK喔但是你們的版本也盡快送出來好嗎那我希望能夠參考我今天所提的這四項主張可以納入好嗎好謝謝部長一起加油好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.84,"end":8.905,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長好有請薛部長"},{"start":14.372,"end":38.292,"text":"午安好部長好我想今天主要就是請教您一方面就是說為什麼這次我們沒有辦法及時下架封網還有再來我們修法的方向那先針對就是去年我們修的法因為我想我們去年都參與了這個修法那我自己本身就是說也非常的關心它的成效那我回來看我們所修的法那其實我們修的法"},{"start":38.832,"end":55.793,"text":"都有這個空間讓主管機關不管是先行限制瀏覽或移除而且當時我要求24小時然後你們後來就是說沒有辦法在條文中所以規範在施行細則裡面那當時我們的法條前面是第8條部長知道嗎"},{"start":56.374,"end":82.614,"text":"後面就是說如果網絡業者沒有及時下架主管機關令期限期改善那如果沒有限期改善就是限制接取了那就是那大家都有談到這個非法論談2021年就曾經被封網2024還在傷害兒少無法接受我想請問部長那我們去年修的法第47條就是給就是說這裡面的主管機關是誰"},{"start":84.705,"end":113.468,"text":"就是限期改善並如果不改善就是限制接取的主管機關是指誰?第47條NCC跟地方政府好NCC那在這次的這個黃子椒的這個論壇就是NCC嗎?不是黃子椒他那種是網際網路是回到申訴人被害人的所在地的縣市政府"},{"start":114.275,"end":142.803,"text":"所以那這個縣市政府是誰去通知他們我們會接受到民眾申訴之後那我們就會通知目的縣主管機關包括縣市政府還有網路平台業者那就是網路平台業者的話那是誰令其限期改善就是主責還是在衛福部嘛那令其罰款的部分是你剛講的在這個案子中是地方主管機關那地方主管機關你們接觸了沒有"},{"start":143.303,"end":161.902,"text":"有然後到底問題出在哪裡他在110年司法做強制動作之後他就換了一個網域後來他只要被害人民眾他有跟我們的影像處理中心申訴那當時這個網站"},{"start":163.424,"end":163.884,"text":"因為這要有被害人出來跟我們商討"},{"start":180.379,"end":205.679,"text":"之前有被害人但是呢在那個網站他都會第一時間就會移除下架對但是他移除下架之後他沒有限期改善他改善了之後又再犯那依照第47條借其為改善者得案次處罰並得令其限制接取我不能理解的事情就是說他就是說你上次叫他下架他下架了一部分之後後來又發生不就是借其為改善嗎"},{"start":206.46,"end":213.314,"text":"那這個難道就是他有改善?就是我們47條是不是給這個空間了?請問部長,部長您也是念法律的"},{"start":215.126,"end":240.893,"text":"一個我不知道當時在解釋這個目的事業主管機關這一條裡面指的是NCC還是衛福部部長您不知道47條主的是誰就表示您不夠在乎這件事吧不是我個人是從這個文字來看的話是比較像是衛福部啦這個這個文字看起來我其實也研究了很久但是後來你們的施行細則直接說他47條就是NCC"},{"start":245.176,"end":266.856,"text":"電信事業主管機關但是如果是NCC的話就跟那個縣市政府要留不起來那就是如果是個別的網路公司的話就是看那個公司是在哪裡登記那這次這個公司是在哪個地方政府登記因為他沒有在台灣落地所以由申訴人的所在地的縣市政府"},{"start":267.681,"end":283.431,"text":"先是申訴人的所在地所以我想你們是不是可以講話直接一點但是如果以47條來看的話那我們當時修法的時候就給了你們依照情況嚴重的時候譬如說他未改善的話得令其限制接取嗎"},{"start":284.432,"end":300.844,"text":"所以我還是覺得第一個我後來看了就是說部長對外所講的就是施行細則第7條說什麼通知等等的話我覺得你們其實施行細則訂的並不好反而就是把自己原來的權限架空了"},{"start":301.144,"end":326.406,"text":"你回來看母法我們當時的母法我要求24小時你們沒有用你們要求放在施行細則可是你施行細則反而越訂越緊到什麼找不到通訊第7條結果最後還要依照行政執行法規定及時強制所以我可不可以要求部長你把你們的施行細則當然我們能夠修母法讓他更清楚不要有這個模糊空間的話我也非常的支持"},{"start":326.986,"end":338.255,"text":"其實我認為我們去年修了法就給衛福部跟NC等這個空間那主要發動的還是在你們衛福部嘛那你們定的適應性則是不是能夠在兩週內就改善"},{"start":339.875,"end":364.303,"text":"在我們修法前施行細則施行細則因為你先是給自己還限制的更緊我知道我知道還有什麼未送達阻止犯罪然後才能夠及時強制那個是要修施行細則施行細則也該修對但是施行細則要修的話我是比較建議是這樣我們母法修了之後施行細則再來修可能不只是這幾點"},{"start":365.303,"end":385.274,"text":"當然不止這幾個我自己就針對母法要再更強化因為我發現就是說我們修的認為補好了可是你們自己的適應性則又綁了自己的手腳就陷入一個法律的一個迷藏中反而不如我剛剛所講你回去看我們修的母法其實就是要求你在最後的時候就是要就是說強制然後限制接取"},{"start":385.714,"end":413.505,"text":"那當然就是說這次大家對刑罰的部分我認為也是有一些空間在改善我們回來看就是我發的臉書我認為這就是無辜重製所以司法的體系這一次為什麼沒有用比較重的但我們回來看兒少性剝削防制條件對於這種下載那在法律上可以叫做重製兒少剝削性影像的話的確是沒有放在第38條一年以上七年以下相對比較重的刑責"},{"start":414.365,"end":441.151,"text":"我認為可以把重製就是這一類的下載它並不是單純的擁有它是一個付費的費源加上它下載另外一個我們的兒少性剝削第47條原本有一個付費就是所謂的支持兌價支付兌價關攬兒少的性交或猥褻的話處一年以下可是沒有去罰支付兌價關攬兒少性行為的影像"},{"start":442.29,"end":469.782,"text":"這個部分沒有規範那這個洞是不是也應該補上這應該要補那最後一個我想我就五點訴求我認為我們這一次修法應該讓這個網更密一點沒有一點模糊不處理的空間一個就是對價觀覽只要是兒少性影像還有重置兒少性影像都要入法第二個還是應該加重罰則不要讓這個性剝削常態化第三個應該修法再強化雖然我認為這次主管機關本來就可以斷網"},{"start":470.322,"end":495.348,"text":"但是據說這個模糊空間不要再有就應該要更強化最後我也主張這一類的特別是兒少性影像要有犯罪資料庫那其實這些網路的跨國公司都有能力就是說用他的科技能力去找出一旦這個影像又出來被上架的時候可以立刻杜絕重複傳播那部長是不是可以支持我提的這四個修法方向"},{"start":496.148,"end":513.722,"text":"這個方向我是可以支持但最後那一個的話可能還要加上讓主管機關能夠有這樣子的權限當然那請部長您是念法律的也下來一起研究相關的法條好不好那你們多久之內可以給我們辦公室一個關於這4點的一個修法的相關的評估報告呢"},{"start":514.252,"end":532.359,"text":"我們會盡量因為應該很快在委員會裡面是不是就會有那個條文就我也馬上會提我的版本那我希望你們也那我們會準備好啦因為如果要按照程序從行政院再過來的話可能會很慢好那多久之內可以送到行政院你們的版本"},{"start":534.02,"end":555.977,"text":"如果說委員是可以同意的話也許我們就就行政院這個可能委員會要直接處理了等不到行政院那委員會直接處理的話據說也OK喔但是你們的版本也盡快送出來好嗎那我希望能夠參考我今天所提的這四項主張可以納入好嗎好謝謝部長一起加油好謝謝"}]}}}}