{"id":151163,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151163","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8a1755e5400c0e7152ba0535964bb0dfefb6b28ae2d84df8ba9b0039caa7a6c5eb4435e8f3c8585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"14:28:40 - 14:48:02","影片長度":"00:19:22","會議時間":"2024-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、內政部、法務部、教育部、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、文化部就「數位技術普及造成兒少性剝削案件增加之因應作為與現行政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-15","duration":1162,"end_time":"2024-04-15T14:48:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-15T14:28:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1536,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（14時28分）謝謝主席，有請薛部長。"],["主席：好，有請薛部長。"],["劉委員建國：今天食藥署沒有來？"],["主席：沒有，今天沒有邀食藥署。"],["劉委員建國：好，沒關係。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好，兒少性剝削的事情等一下再跟你討論，我還是先討論食安的問題。我上禮拜在這個地方特別提到，部長應該記憶猶新，後來我看到一些相關的報導，還有看到臺北市議會蔣市長的答詢，我有一點驚訝，怎麼會是這樣？我不曉得前後的時間是怎樣，我記得很清楚，那一天我有把整個時序都列出來，3月14號臺北市衛生局就到這個寶林茶室去採檢，當天沒有查扣任何食材，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：如果依照食藥署定出的疑似食品中毒事件處理要點，第四點中也清楚明白表示食品中毒事件相關檢體之採集分工原則，除食餘之外，嫌疑食品也要帶走，而且是由地方政府衛生局相關的食品科處主辦，沒有錯嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：但我不曉得蔣市長為什麼會在議會公開表示……"],["薛部長瑞元：他們在24號當天只採了4個拭子，就是廚師的、環境的等，就這四個去抹拭，要送回去做檢驗。"],["劉委員建國：是，其他的食餘、疑似的食品統統沒有嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：那個沒有，所以他們說已經沒有了，我不知道他怎麼認為啦，也許以為是不相關，所以他就沒有採。"],["劉委員建國：對，那怎麼好意思在那個殿堂講出是衛福部不願查扣食材？他是這麼講的，沒有錯嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：我認為這一句話對衛福部來講非常不公平，因為那個是26號，26號我們食藥署跟CDC還有專家一起過去，我們看了現場之後，大家就在那邊討論哪一些東西要扣回來、要檢查什麼東西、什麼樣的項目，在那邊做討論。食藥署沒有什麼第一時間不願意把食材扣回來，我覺得這句話臺北市政府應該要好好的說清楚，不然的話以後大家互相信賴的基礎都沒有了。"],["劉委員建國：對，我就是要讓部長好好對這件事情做一個回應，其實這麼講，3月26號就扣了這麼多，有沒有特別問過衛福部該扣不扣、要不要扣？沒有問嘛。"],["薛部長瑞元：基本上就是衛福部扣回來的，如果你厲害，24號你就自己扣回去了，怎麼會到26號才跟衛福部在那邊「盧」？然後最後是衛福部扣回來的，如果你認為應該扣的話，24號你就扣走了。"],["劉委員建國：對啊，那就很清楚嘛，照理講24號就該扣卻沒有扣，直到26號才扣，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：現在3月28號藏壽司又發生食物中毒，臺北市依舊沒有扣任何的食物。"],["薛部長瑞元：你說哪一件？"],["劉委員建國：3月28號藏壽司。"],["薛部長瑞元：喔，藏壽司。"],["劉委員建國：一樣沒有扣。"],["薛部長瑞元：這一件它到底有沒有扣，我是沒有那麼……"],["劉委員建國：我的訊息裡面是沒有扣，因為沒有扣，所以現在新北市有兩家藏壽司也連續發生食物中毒事件，這要通報嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：所以這次衛福部就通知全國各地藏壽司分店所在地的衛生局，全部統統要去做檢查。"],["劉委員建國：所以我要講之前在上週我就特別提到，臺北市去引用舊的食品中毒採樣的操作手冊，而不是引用有明確通報流程分工的疑似食品中毒事件處理要點。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：我覺得這一個很關鍵、也很致命，甚至於剴剴案，之前我在這邊也請教過部長，明明衛福部都有頒布直轄縣市政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則，用最高的標準來規範這些進行家外安置兒童的保母人員，當時部長回答我，說臺北市覺得他們的資源足夠，所以不用這個處理原則，這是你回答我的嘛。"],["薛部長瑞元：是啊，那時候他們是這樣認為，所以對於這種需要家外安置的，他們認為他們的寄養家庭家數是夠的，所以沒有特別要去指定保母來做這件事情。"],["劉委員建國：對，你看，後續就發生剴剴這個案子！他們資源足夠、不需要遵照中央頒布的要點，上面他又引用錯誤的、舊的手冊，而不用新頒布的要點，分工清楚、通報清楚。"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分我也講過，我其實蠻同情衛生局的基層同仁，他們去到現場沒有辦法分辨什麼是疑似食品，食餘大家都知道，但是疑似食品在當場的判斷也許就沒有那麼周延，這我曾經也講過，所以我是認為不要太過苛責基層第一線的工作人員……"],["劉委員建國：我知道，部長已經講過。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是這樣倒過來把責任推給中央政府，說句不好聽的話，我覺得太沒有江湖道義。"],["劉委員建國：我就是覺得像你說的這句話，所以我才會再問一次。","所以有時候也要拜託召委，如果中央跟地方針對一個頒布要點在執行上、認知上的遵循落差這麼大，其實這種事情會層出不窮，不只是食安，連剴剴事件都還會再發生……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，當然這方面我們會儘量來改善，讓這個不清楚的地方越來越清楚。"],["劉委員建國：是啦，召委也可以邀請各縣市，安排一個專案報告，針對中央頒布的要點，看到底要怎麼樣的認知才能有辦法去遵循，這樣才不會有相關的事情後續一直發生，因為臺中現在又有一個知名的料理店發生食安問題，真的層出不窮。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！"],["劉委員建國：好，我回到今天的主題─兒少性剝削，今天很多委員都已經討論過，我在這邊具體要求部長是不是能在本月、最好在5月20日之前就把行政院版提出來，因為大家都希望加重罰則、加重其刑，其實還有很多的面向必須要做修正討論的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：有沒有辦法？"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，這樣啦，我們不要說院版，因為院版要走一定的程序，520之前大概不太可能會進到這邊……"],["劉委員建國：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：就是衛福部有沒有想過什麼樣的條文修正方向，擬具參考的條文資料……"],["劉委員建國：有沒有部長要直接答復我啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，如果你問的是這樣，我就說我們可以做得到。"],["劉委員建國：不是啦，你們有沒有原本就有的想法，要針對哪幾個法條去做修正？"],["薛部長瑞元：有啦，我們有想法……"],["劉委員建國：有嘛，你要回答我「有」，你不能只有想而已嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們有想法，但是現在不能說那叫做院版。"],["劉委員建國：好，沒關係啦，就是衛福部有自己的想法，要修第幾條，做比較全面性的思考，然後去預防、嚇阻這樣的事情再發生，如果有就好。","我現在要從這件事情延伸另外兩個事件，我想網紅統神那件事情，部長應該有所掌握吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：我知道。"],["劉委員建國：他的言論等等等，你看喔，這個不是一個個案喔，他的背景我不需要再介紹了，不過他在當下用了很多問候人家親屬的不雅言論，除此之外還有涉及到什麼討論到黑幫、禁藥，反正就是兒少不宜的內容，這些內容如果放在電視或是電臺，依照廣播電視法第二十一條早就被罰到關臺了，我們臺灣好像對這個YT（YouTube）還有網路上的管理有太多太多的問題、太多太多的盲點，部長，你不能答復那句：「那個我沒辦法」。不是啦，這話要是寫下來記錄，對你不好，真的，我做適當提醒。"],["薛部長瑞元：我知道，但是報告委員，我實在很無奈。"],["劉委員建國：是啦，我想行為言詞要受到言論自由的保護，但是如果未成年還能收看得到這些影音作品，政府不應該都不設限，對不對？你看喔，這些不適合未成年收看的內容、言論只要在網路平臺發布，全部都變成無法可管，今天衛福部、數發部、NCC等主管機關也都在現場，我不曉得你們到底要把網路世界當成一個三不管地帶嗎？不行嘛、也不可能嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦，這個部分我們還是會找各部會一起來討論一下，把一些事情……"],["劉委員建國：93年的時候新聞局頒布了電腦網路內容分級處理辦法，建立網站的分級制度，但101年的時候由NCC廢止本法，轉由兒少權益保障法第四十六條來管理，對不對？內容明定主管機關要辦理的事項，其中就包含內容分級制度之推動，還有檢討過濾軟體之建立及推動，這個網站的分級制度到底由誰來處理？怎麼處理？現在處理是怎樣的狀況？"],["薛部長瑞元：這是不是請NCC回答？"],["詹主任文旭：跟委員報告，現在兒少網際網路內容的防護是由NCC邀集相關部會來委託民間辦理，現在針對網際網路內容的防護，它沒辦法用分級，它是用防護的概念，有阻攔、警示、嚴格年齡限制、還有禁止表現。譬如成人網站，它就是用嚴格年齡限制，可能就必須要刷卡或者是怎麼樣，不是鎖碼而已……"],["劉委員建國：怎麼刷？怎麼刷？"],["詹主任文旭：不是，不是，就是說……"],["劉委員建國：不是啦！你說嚴格的年齡限制嘛，對不對？要怎麼去確認他這個年齡不適合去看，他要怎麼刷才可以刷得開，然後怎麼去確認他的年齡？"],["詹主任文旭：對，譬如國內……"],["劉委員建國：你知道才答復我，你不知道不要答復我。"],["詹主任文旭：我大概知道的跟委員報告……"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["詹主任文旭：境內的成人網站要架設的時候，譬如像第四臺也有那個成人頻道，他們就會鎖碼；像一般的網站……"],["劉委員建國：我現在講網站，你在講第四臺是不一樣的。"],["詹主任文旭：成人論壇一樣，他一定要入會，要繳費才能收看，所以他在繳費……"],["劉委員建國：現在網站是這樣嗎？一定要入會？"],["詹主任文旭：有一些是用這種機制，如果沒有這些機制……"],["劉委員建國：怎麼會叫作有一些？等於另外有一些不用嘛？"],["詹主任文旭：因為有一些它不是標榜成人網站。"],["劉委員建國：有一些它不是標榜成人網站，所以只要標榜成人網站，它就有年齡的限制，是不是這樣？"],["詹主任文旭：如果有人檢舉沒有這樣的機制，iWIN就會……"],["劉委員建國：我現在問的這個事情是你在主管的嗎？是你業管的嗎？"],["詹主任文旭：是我們輔導iWIN機制─—網際網路內容防護機構……"],["劉委員建國：是你們在輔導的？"],["詹主任文旭：對。"],["劉委員建國：你們輔導的具體成效，有讓這些未成年不會去接觸到這些有年齡限制，然後必須要有真正的年齡驗證，身分的確認，才有辦法上去那個網站嗎？"],["詹主任文旭：它有一個申訴的機制，如果缺乏這些機制，就會……"],["劉委員建國：這不叫作申訴機制。"],["詹主任文旭：我知道，如果沒有做好這件事情……"],["劉委員建國：沒有啦！你們就是沒有做好，我才問的啊！有做好，我幹嘛問，就直接稱讚你們啦！主席已經站起來，我快一點，這一段快結束了。你看，這裡有一部叫做「來自深淵　烈日的黃金鄉」動畫，因為內容暴力血腥，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00:01:09,860\n3月14日台北市衛生局就到這個保齡茶室去採檢那當天沒有查扣任何食材嘛對不對如果同時依照食藥署訂出的疑似食品中毒事件處理要點這個第4點中也清楚地明白表示說食品中毒事件相關檢體之採集分工原則除此以之外\n\n4\n00:01:10,859 --> 00:01:13,140\n他們當天24日當天只採了4個柿子就是除濕的那環境的\n\n5\n00:01:29,850 --> 00:01:32,992\n怎麼好意思在那個殿堂講出說是衛福部不願查購食材?\n\n6\n00:01:53,948 --> 00:01:54,349\n他是這麼講的嗎?\n\n7\n00:01:54,349 --> 00:01:55,190\n沒有錯嗎?\n\n8\n00:01:55,190 --> 00:02:10,888\n對不對?我認為這一句話是對衛福部來講非常不公平因為那個是26號26號我們的食藥署跟那個CDC還有專家一起過去那我們看了現場之後的話\n\n9\n00:02:39,591 --> 00:03:03,137\n我就跟部長對這件事情做一個回應嘛齁那其實這麼講啦齁3月26日就扣了這麼多有沒有特別問過衛福部該扣不扣?要不要扣?沒有問嗎?基本上就是衛福部扣回來的如果你若搞你就死死你就把他扣回去嘛是嗎?如果說跟幾個人還要還衛福部還在煮然後最後是衛福部扣回來如果你如果認為應該扣的話你24號就扣走了啊\n\n10\n00:03:08,820 --> 00:03:23,085\n對啊對啊那就很清楚嘛對這樣一講22就該扣嘛沒有扣嘛到26號才扣嘛對不對好那現在3月28號臟瘦屍又發生食物中毒台北市依舊沒有扣任何的食物這個食物你說哪一件3月28號臟瘦屍臟瘦屍對不對一樣沒有扣\n\n11\n00:03:27,526 --> 00:03:32,149\n所以這一次衛生部就通知全國各地的藏獸師的分店所在的衛生局就全部通通要去做檢查\n\n12\n00:03:51,359 --> 00:04:13,811\n對,所以我是要講說之前在上週我就特別提到說台北市去引用舊的這個食品中毒採樣的操作手冊嘛而不是有明確通報流程分工的這個疑似食品中毒的事件處理要點我覺得這一個很關鍵,也很致命啊然後甚至於這個凱凱案這個之前我在這邊也請教過部長\n\n13\n00:04:15,595 --> 00:04:34,480\n民間衛福部都有頒布自家縣市政府應用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則當時那用最高的標準來規範這些進行家外安置的兒童的保母人員那當時部長是回我說台北市覺得他們的資源足夠所以不用這個處理的原則\n\n14\n00:04:36,229 --> 00:05:03,551\n那你給我回答嗎?那時候他們真的很這樣所以本身他們這種需要家外安置的他們認為說他們的那個寄養家庭的家數是夠的所以沒有特別要去指定說這種所謂的保母來做這件事情對啊你看這個後續就發生這個案子發生凱凱案他們資源足夠不需要遵照中央頒布的要點那上面他又引用錯誤的\n\n15\n00:05:05,053 --> 00:05:11,251\n去用舊的手冊不用新頒布的要點分工清楚通報清楚\n\n16\n00:05:12,496 --> 00:05:41,641\n這部分的話其實我也講過啦我其實是蠻同情我們的那個衛生局的基層同仁去到現場他沒有辦法去分辨什麼是叫做儀式的食品啦食語的話是大家都知道但是儀式食品的話在當場的判斷也許就沒有那麼周延這我曾經也講過說我是認為說不要太過苛責我們的那個基層第一線的工作人員\n\n17\n00:05:41,801 --> 00:05:58,474\n我知道,部長已經講過但是齁,你用這樣倒頭把責任推給中央政府的話,我是覺得,講得這麼難聽,好像太沒有江湖道義了我就是覺得,像你講的這句話,所以我不知道要不要再問一次\n\n18\n00:05:59,335 --> 00:06:16,652\n所以這有來現在也要拜託教育啦如果說中央跟地方針對一個頒布的要點執行上還是認知上的遵循落差這麼大其實這種事情會層出不窮啦不只是食安嘛連這個凱凱的事件都還會再發生嘛\n\n19\n00:06:17,273 --> 00:06:37,734\n對,但是後面我們會盡量來改善啦,就是說讓這不清楚的地方越來越清楚啦。是啦,啊如果,如果,如果,如果教育也可以邀請給國管企業來一個專案報告,將比中央辦部的要點看到底要怎麼,要怎麼樣的認知才有辦法去諸選嘛,這樣才不會有相關的這個或許事情一直在發生嘛。\n\n20\n00:06:38,354 --> 00:06:57,213\n因為台中現在越有一個知名的料理店、越有花生的食安問題,層出不窮啦,層出不窮。我要回到今天的主題了,兒少性剝削。我想今天很多委員都已經討論過,我要在這邊具體要求部長是不是在本月,就最好在5月20日之前,就把行政院院板提出來。\n\n21\n00:06:58,494 --> 00:07:26,788\n因為大家都加重法則加重這個提醒其實還有很多面向必須要去做修正討論的啦有沒有辦法?我們不要說院版啦因為院版他就要走一定的程序那大概520之前大概不太可能會進到這邊就是說衛福部有沒有想過什麼樣的一個條文修正的方向你去參考的條文的資料有沒有部長要直接答覆我啊?\n\n22\n00:07:27,909 --> 00:07:52,265\n對,如果你問的是這樣的,我就說我們可以做得到不是啦,你們有沒有,原本就有想法要去針對哪幾個法條去做修正嘛有啦,我們有想法有嘛,你要回答我有嘛,你不能只有想而已嘛但是現在不能說那個就怨煩啦好啦,沒關係啦,就是你有要保護自己的生活,要想幾條來做比較專門性的這樣的一個思考然後去預防嚇阻這個事情再發生嘛,那如果有就好\n\n23\n00:07:52,946 --> 00:07:57,978\n我現在從這件事情去延伸另外的兩個事件我想這一個\n\n24\n00:07:59,898 --> 00:08:23,505\n那個網紅捅神那件事情不然應該有所掌握吧?我知道他的言論等等等啦齁你看齁這個不是一個個案齁他他他其實是一個他的背景我都不需要再介紹了不過他在當下用了很多這個問候人家清楚齁不雅的言論嘛齁除此之外還有涉及到什麼會討論到黑幫啦禁料啦反正就是兒少不宜的內容\n\n25\n00:08:24,305 --> 00:08:41,138\n這些內容如果放在電視或是電台啦齁那依照廣播電視法21條早就被滑到關台了啦早就嘛齁那我們的台灣好像對對這個YT啦齁Youtube齁然後還有網路上的這個管理\n\n26\n00:08:42,179 --> 00:08:44,140\n太多太多的問題太多太多的盲點\n\n27\n00:08:59,717 --> 00:09:23,983\n我想網絡行為延遲要受到言論的自由保護但是如果衛生連還收看到這些影音的作品政府不應該都不設限對不對那你看這些不適合衛生連收看的內容言論只要在網絡平台發布全部都變成無法可管甚至今天的衛部、速發部、NCC、主管機關也都在現場我不曉得你們到底到底要把網絡世界當成一個三不管地帶嗎\n\n28\n00:09:25,123 --> 00:09:49,599\n也不行嘛,也不可能嘛,對不對?對啦,這部分的話我們還是會來找各個部會一起來討論一下啦我們在93年的時候新聞局頒布了電腦網路的內容分析處理辦法進入網站的分析制度但101年的時候由NCC繪紙本法轉由這個兒少權力保障法第46條來管理嘛,對不對?\n\n29\n00:09:50,785 --> 00:10:03,872\n那內容民電主管機關要辦理事項其中包含就有內容分析制度之推動還有檢討過濾軟體之建立及推動這個網站的分析制度到底誰在處理?怎麼處理?現在處理的什麼?怎樣的狀況?\n\n30\n00:10:09,395 --> 00:10:32,742\n現在兒少網際網路內容的防護是由NCC邀請相關部會來委託民間辦理現在針對網際網路的內容防護其實它沒有辦法用分級它是用防護的概念有阻攔、警示、嚴格年齡限制還有禁止表現\n\n31\n00:10:35,103 --> 00:10:58,332\n比如說那個成人網站他就是嚴格年齡限制他就必須可能是要刷卡或者是怎麼樣他不是鎖碼而已怎麼刷?怎麼刷?不是不是就是說不是啊你說嚴格的年齡限制嘛對不對要怎麼去確認他是不對這個年齡不適合去看他要怎麼刷才可以刷得開然後怎麼去確認他的年齡\n\n32\n00:10:59,711 --> 00:11:14,336\n對就是說譬如說那個像國內你知道才打呼我你不知道不要打呼我是境內我大概知道的跟我委員報告境內的成人網站他要架設的時候譬如說像第四台他也有那個成人頻道對\n\n33\n00:11:15,916 --> 00:11:41,866\n他就是會有說嘛那像那個一般的網站我現在在找網站你要講第4台是不一樣的他一定要入會要繳費才能收看所以他在繳費的現在網站是這樣嗎一定要入會有一些就是用這種機制如果沒有這些機制怎麼會叫做有一些啊等於另外有一些不會不用嗎因為有一些他不是標榜成人網站\n\n34\n00:11:43,300 --> 00:12:00,240\n有一些他不是標榜成人網站所以只要標榜成人網站就必須不是不是講清楚只要標榜成人網站他就有一點點限制是不是這樣就是說我們那個如果有人檢舉沒有這樣的機制案例問就會出我現在問的這個事情是你在主管嗎?你在夜管嗎?\n\n35\n00:12:00,740 --> 00:12:17,097\n是我們輔導IWIN機制網際網路內容防護機構的你們輔導的具體成效有讓這些未成年不會去接觸到這些有年齡限制的然後必須要有真正的年齡的驗證身份的確認才有辦法去到那個網站嗎?\n\n36\n00:12:17,918 --> 00:12:31,684\n他是有一個申訴的機制如果缺乏這些機制不叫做申訴機制勒我知道如果沒有做好這件事情沒有啦沒有啦你們就是沒有做好啊沒有做好我才問啊有做好幹嘛問有做好就直接給你毆露啊\n\n37\n00:12:33,311 --> 00:12:59,241\n你看嘛齁來你自己看主席站上來我快點這段你要說了齁這有一部叫做來自深淵烈烈的黃金香動畫然後因為內容暴力血腥在國內的知名動畫平台上分級是18加限制級嘛對不對陳如你所講的必須登陸會員或符合特定條件才能觀看陳如你所講的沒有錯來但是在youtube上一樣作品代理商直接上傳影片警方上\n\n38\n00:13:00,356 --> 00:13:16,160\n警語本集內容敏感畫面可能引起不適觀看前請衡量自身狀態衛生人建立由成年親友陪同遲到觀賞要刷什麼卡這個連YouTube會員都不用登錄就可以直接觀看這個動畫怎麼會這樣\n\n39\n00:13:20,273 --> 00:13:49,261\n現在是大家家長大家自有心證來確定然後用感覺來分析嗎?這個用警語有道理嗎?不是不是這個用警語有道理嗎?在這邊要滿18歲在這邊用警語如果這些就是因為他其實網際網路內容防護他有一個歷史框架如果是有需要的話我們再來請那個艾運什麼叫做有需要你現在看到這個狀況就發生了怎麼會沒有需要\n\n40\n00:13:54,648 --> 00:14:09,221\n您這很簡單。你就不用分級。免登錄、錄帳、職能收看也不需要什麼寫家長親友、什麼成年親友陪同。什麼叫成年親友陪同?這種親友好像黑道的用詞。親友團在說什麼?\n\n41\n00:14:13,359 --> 00:14:40,484\n我們會請艾文來瞭解這個案例我再用一個例子給你看部長這個在網站上查詢這款叫做什麽12支天M的遊戲為限制級的遊戲實際到了Google的平台下載遊戲時平台是顯示也是12家那下一款遊戲你注意看下一款遊戲在分級平台上有顯示性分類為限制級\n\n42\n00:14:42,691 --> 00:15:00,823\n但到庫格平台的時候也顯示性案事但他仍然只有到12家什麼意思?滿12歲就可以看了遊戲軟體是數位部產業署他們在輔導在分級啦對阿跟你不關那樣嗎是不是來阿數位部的人是什麼狀況這個是滿12歲就可以看是不是\n\n43\n00:15:09,795 --> 00:15:34,845\n你在分級平台上已經有顯示性的內容喔分類為限制級不好意思跟委員報告那這個部分這個網路的你在這個數位娛樂軟體分級查詢軟體裡面很清楚嘛對不對很清楚然後跑到這邊來他就是滿12歲就是可以看嘛你提供的顯示性分級為限制級\n\n44\n00:15:36,249 --> 00:15:54,154\n來到這邊就是沒有用嘛還是得到這邊要跟小朋友講說沒關係你媽自己為你挑刮你也不需要就可以玩了也不需要什麼親牛家長陪同是不是這樣現在未成年都已經人人有一台手機了嘛這個手機直接上網就馬上可以玩了嘛\n\n45\n00:15:56,348 --> 00:16:09,615\n你跟我講怎麼管嘛這個遊戲的部分我們回去再瞭解一下就是因為他在不同的平台上的顯示你不能到現在跟我講回去要再瞭解現在就可以瞭解了嗎我現在在問你的政務方針機制在哪裡嗎因為剛剛他講說這是你管的啊\n\n46\n00:16:12,097 --> 00:16:26,130\n你們怎麼管?管在哪裡?管理機制在哪裡?因為這個是我們產業署,那...產業署有人來嗎?今天的話今天是沒有到...所以你沒辦法代表產業署去回應任了?有問題,所以你必須要帶回去?那你看這樣夠不夠離譜?\n\n47\n00:16:28,601 --> 00:16:38,469\n這個我們會帶回去研究了解不是啊,今天我不曉得你有沒有baby的啦齁那如果有還是說自己的親屬裡面有小朋友就這樣子啊這邊這邊有分級這邊就變成這樣了這不是很離譜\n\n48\n00:16:43,260 --> 00:17:07,256\n好謝謝委員指導那這個部分我們帶回去研究所以我是想說衛生年少年要上網的第一道把關我們就我們就管道離力大了管道破亂不堪這事情就會沒完沒了啦一定會沒有沒了啦因為主席站上來了我不想再講下去了我還是期待部長就法律的層面啦就各部會的整個整合還是希望部長\n\n49\n00:17:08,337 --> 00:17:10,199\n我跟召委建議一下因為剛剛早上\n\n50\n00:17:23,855 --> 00:17:50,157\n我是剝削案件,因為第一案的時候是有針對有討論過,那後來突然有表達是針對那個什麼創意料理啊創意師長,對不起啦那個不一定要檢討嘛對不對在這邊有確認嘛,我們也尊重突然的這個提案嘛那他現在我又聽說什麼一二三案一二三段要全部留下來\n\n51\n00:17:51,838 --> 00:18:20,697\n然後聽說你們衛部也接受了因為我在現場我也是委員之一也是參與討論之一嘛那我聽到部長是沒有辦法接受嘛因為這邊寫了123段裡面都寫了818天818天他媽也計算得非常清楚然後寫說什麼使讓無數的犯罪影像在818天上架流通馬脈而這818天中衛部的消極不作為使無數女性的頸部裡面讓所有的癌童日夜哭泣\n\n52\n00:18:23,458 --> 00:18:47,584\n你們要留這三段我是沒有意見喔你們自己去想清楚我是覺得因為徒偉是有特別提到就是說他後來是接受了嘛對不對是針對那個創意私房的一個檢討報告因為部長說針對你個人的這些供請你沒有辦法接受嘛要不然就到這個監察院不然就是提告嘛對不對那一二三段是誰去答應說可以這樣討論的\n\n53\n00:18:49,561 --> 00:19:04,189\n那你也沒有尊重我們在場現場的委員因為我們最後聽到的是突然也接受是所謂針對創意私訪的檢討報告嘛啊這個報告你前面要一出一些話我沒有意見啊你沒覺得這一二三段是可以連結的因為當場沒有確認文字就不對了啦啊我是他們說你小孩了我快賭了嘛他們是你自己要賭啦對啊\n\n54\n00:19:15,295 --> 00:19:20,268\n就請主席這個類似的看起來怎麼才是好不好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12144\t27273\t好,謝謝主席。有請部長。好,我們有請部長。食藥署沒有來齁?沒有,今天沒有食藥署。好,沒問題。好。好,委員好。部長好。兒少性剝削的事情等一下跟你討論啦齁。我還是先討論實案的問題齁。\n29144\t48829\t因為我上禮拜在這地方有特別提到嘛,部長應該都急於遊行。那後來我看到相關的一些報告之後,還有看到台北市議會市長、蔣市長的答詢。我有點驚訝啦,怎麼會是這樣。因為那一天應該,我不曉得前後的時間是怎麼樣。我記得很清楚嘛,我把那個整個時序都有列出來。\n50269\t69860\t3月14日台北市衛生局就到這個保齡茶室去採檢那當天沒有查扣任何食材嘛 對不對如果同時依照食藥署訂出的疑似食品中毒事件處理要點這個第4點中也清楚地明白表示說食品中毒事件相關檢體之採集分工原則除此以之外\n70859\t73140\t他們當天24日當天只採了4個柿子就是除濕的那環境的\n89850\t92992\t怎麼好意思在那個殿堂講出說是衛福部不願查購食材?\n113948\t114349\t他是這麼講的嗎?\n114349\t115190\t沒有錯嗎?\n115190\t130888\t對不對?我認為這一句話是對衛福部來講非常不公平因為那個是26號26號我們的食藥署跟那個CDC還有專家一起過去那我們看了現場之後的話\n132790\t159343\t對﹖\n159591\t183137\t我就跟部長對這件事情做一個回應嘛齁那其實這麼講啦齁3月26日就扣了這麼多有沒有特別問過衛福部該扣不扣?要不要扣?沒有問嗎?基本上就是衛福部扣回來的如果你若搞你就死死你就把他扣回去嘛是嗎?如果說跟幾個人還要還衛福部還在煮然後最後是衛福部扣回來如果你如果認為應該扣的話你24號就扣走了啊\n188820\t203085\t對啊對啊那就很清楚嘛對這樣一講22就該扣嘛沒有扣嘛到26號才扣嘛對不對好那現在3月28號臟瘦屍又發生食物中毒台北市依舊沒有扣任何的食物這個食物你說哪一件3月28號臟瘦屍臟瘦屍對不對一樣沒有扣\n207526\t212149\t所以這一次衛生部就通知全國各地的藏獸師的分店所在的衛生局就全部通通要去做檢查\n231359\t253811\t對,所以我是要講說之前在上週我就特別提到說台北市去引用舊的這個食品中毒採樣的操作手冊嘛而不是有明確通報流程分工的這個疑似食品中毒的事件處理要點我覺得這一個很關鍵,也很致命啊然後甚至於這個凱凱案這個之前我在這邊也請教過部長\n255595\t274480\t民間衛福部都有頒布自家縣市政府應用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則當時那用最高的標準來規範這些進行家外安置的兒童的保母人員那當時部長是回我說台北市覺得他們的資源足夠所以不用這個處理的原則\n276229\t303551\t那你給我回答嗎?那時候他們真的很這樣所以本身他們這種需要家外安置的他們認為說他們的那個寄養家庭的家數是夠的所以沒有特別要去指定說這種所謂的保母來做這件事情對啊你看這個後續就發生這個案子發生凱凱案他們資源足夠不需要遵照中央頒布的要點那上面他又引用錯誤的\n305053\t311251\t去用舊的手冊不用新頒布的要點分工清楚通報清楚\n312496\t341641\t這部分的話其實我也講過啦我其實是蠻同情我們的那個衛生局的基層同仁去到現場他沒有辦法去分辨什麼是叫做儀式的食品啦食語的話是大家都知道但是儀式食品的話在當場的判斷也許就沒有那麼周延這我曾經也講過說我是認為說不要太過苛責我們的那個基層第一線的工作人員\n341801\t358474\t我知道,部長已經講過但是齁,你用這樣倒頭把責任推給中央政府的話,我是覺得,講得這麼難聽,好像太沒有江湖道義了我就是覺得,像你講的這句話,所以我不知道要不要再問一次\n359335\t376652\t所以這有來現在也要拜託教育啦如果說中央跟地方針對一個頒布的要點執行上還是認知上的遵循落差這麼大其實這種事情會層出不窮啦不只是食安嘛連這個凱凱的事件都還會再發生嘛\n377273\t397734\t對,但是後面我們會盡量來改善啦,就是說讓這不清楚的地方越來越清楚啦。是啦,啊如果,如果,如果,如果教育也可以邀請給國管企業來一個專案報告,將比中央辦部的要點看到底要怎麼,要怎麼樣的認知才有辦法去諸選嘛,這樣才不會有相關的這個或許事情一直在發生嘛。\n398354\t417213\t因為台中現在越有一個知名的料理店、越有花生的食安問題,層出不窮啦,層出不窮。我要回到今天的主題了,兒少性剝削。我想今天很多委員都已經討論過,我要在這邊具體要求部長是不是在本月,就最好在5月20日之前,就把行政院院板提出來。\n418494\t446788\t因為大家都加重法則加重這個提醒其實還有很多面向必須要去做修正討論的啦有沒有辦法?我們不要說院版啦因為院版他就要走一定的程序那大概520之前大概不太可能會進到這邊就是說衛福部有沒有想過什麼樣的一個條文修正的方向你去參考的條文的資料有沒有部長要直接答覆我啊?\n447909\t472265\t對,如果你問的是這樣的,我就說我們可以做得到不是啦,你們有沒有,原本就有想法要去針對哪幾個法條去做修正嘛有啦,我們有想法有嘛,你要回答我有嘛,你不能只有想而已嘛但是現在不能說那個就怨煩啦好啦,沒關係啦,就是你有要保護自己的生活,要想幾條來做比較專門性的這樣的一個思考然後去預防嚇阻這個事情再發生嘛,那如果有就好\n472946\t477978\t我現在從這件事情去延伸另外的兩個事件我想這一個\n479898\t503505\t那個網紅捅神那件事情不然應該有所掌握吧?我知道他的言論等等等啦齁你看齁這個不是一個個案齁他他他其實是一個他的背景我都不需要再介紹了不過他在當下用了很多這個問候人家清楚齁不雅的言論嘛齁除此之外還有涉及到什麼會討論到黑幫啦禁料啦反正就是兒少不宜的內容\n504305\t521138\t這些內容如果放在電視或是電台啦齁那依照廣播電視法21條早就被滑到關台了啦早就嘛齁那我們的台灣好像對對這個YT啦齁Youtube齁然後還有網路上的這個管理\n522179\t524140\t太多太多的問題 太多太多的盲點\n539717\t563983\t我想網絡行為延遲要受到言論的自由保護但是如果衛生連還收看到這些影音的作品政府不應該都不設限對不對那你看這些不適合衛生連收看的內容言論只要在網絡平台發布全部都變成無法可管甚至今天的衛部、速發部、NCC、主管機關也都在現場我不曉得你們到底到底要把網絡世界當成一個三不管地帶嗎\n565123\t589599\t也不行嘛,也不可能嘛,對不對?對啦,這部分的話我們還是會來找各個部會一起來討論一下啦我們在93年的時候新聞局頒布了電腦網路的內容分析處理辦法進入網站的分析制度但101年的時候由NCC繪紙本法轉由這個兒少權力保障法第46條來管理嘛,對不對?\n590785\t603872\t那內容民電主管機關要辦理事項其中包含就有內容分析制度之推動還有檢討過濾軟體之建立及推動這個網站的分析制度到底誰在處理?怎麼處理?現在處理的什麼?怎樣的狀況?\n609395\t632742\t現在兒少網際網路內容的防護是由NCC邀請相關部會來委託民間辦理現在針對網際網路的內容防護其實它沒有辦法用分級它是用防護的概念有阻攔、警示、嚴格年齡限制還有禁止表現\n635103\t658332\t比如說那個成人網站他就是嚴格年齡限制他就必須可能是要刷卡或者是怎麼樣他不是鎖碼而已怎麼刷?怎麼刷?不是不是就是說不是啊你說嚴格的年齡限制嘛對不對要怎麼去確認他是不對這個年齡不適合去看他要怎麼刷才可以刷得開然後怎麼去確認他的年齡\n659711\t674336\t對就是說譬如說那個像國內你知道才打呼我你不知道不要打呼我是境內我大概知道的跟我委員報告境內的成人網站他要架設的時候譬如說像第四台他也有那個成人頻道對\n675916\t701866\t他就是會有說嘛那像那個一般的網站我現在在找網站你要講第4台是不一樣的他一定要入會要繳費才能收看所以他在繳費的現在網站是這樣嗎一定要入會有一些就是用這種機制如果沒有這些機制怎麼會叫做有一些啊等於另外有一些不會不用嗎因為有一些他不是標榜成人網站\n703300\t720240\t有一些他不是標榜成人網站所以只要標榜成人網站就必須不是不是講清楚只要標榜成人網站他就有一點點限制是不是這樣就是說我們那個如果有人檢舉沒有這樣的機制案例問就會出我現在問的這個事情是你在主管嗎?你在夜管嗎?\n720740\t737097\t是我們輔導IWIN機制網際網路內容防護機構的你們輔導的具體成效有讓這些未成年不會去接觸到這些有年齡限制的然後必須要有真正的年齡的驗證身份的確認才有辦法去到那個網站嗎?\n737918\t751684\t他是有一個申訴的機制如果缺乏這些機制不叫做申訴機制勒我知道如果沒有做好這件事情沒有啦沒有啦你們就是沒有做好啊沒有做好我才問啊有做好幹嘛問有做好就直接給你毆露啊\n753311\t779241\t你看嘛齁 來你自己看主席站上來我快點這段你要說了齁這有一部叫做來自深淵烈烈的黃金香動畫然後因為內容暴力血腥在國內的知名動畫平台上分級是18加限制級嘛對不對陳如你所講的必須登陸會員或符合特定條件才能觀看陳如你所講的沒有錯來但是在youtube上一樣作品代理商直接上傳影片警方上\n780356\t796160\t警語本集內容敏感畫面可能引起不適觀看前請衡量自身狀態衛生人建立由成年親友陪同遲到觀賞要刷什麼卡這個連YouTube會員都不用登錄就可以直接觀看這個動畫怎麼會這樣\n800273\t829261\t現在是大家家長大家自有心證來確定然後用感覺來分析嗎?這個用警語有道理嗎?不是不是這個用警語有道理嗎?在這邊要滿18歲在這邊用警語如果這些就是因為他其實網際網路內容防護他有一個歷史框架如果是有需要的話我們再來請那個艾運什麼叫做有需要你現在看到這個狀況就發生了怎麼會沒有需要\n834648\t849221\t您這很簡單。你就不用分級。免登錄、錄帳、職能收看也不需要什麼寫家長親友、什麼成年親友陪同。什麼叫成年親友陪同?這種親友好像黑道的用詞。親友團在說什麼?\n853359\t880484\t我們會請艾文來瞭解這個案例我再用一個例子給你看部長這個在網站上查詢這款叫做什麽12支天M的遊戲為限制級的遊戲實際到了Google的平台下載遊戲時平台是顯示也是12家那下一款遊戲你注意看下一款遊戲在分級平台上有顯示性分類為限制級\n882691\t900823\t但到庫格平台的時候也顯示性案事但他仍然只有到12家什麼意思?滿12歲就可以看了遊戲軟體是數位部產業署他們在輔導在分級啦對阿跟你不關那樣嗎是不是來阿數位部的人是什麼狀況這個是滿12歲就可以看是不是\n909795\t934845\t你在分級平台上已經有顯示性的內容喔分類為限制級不好意思跟委員報告那這個部分這個網路的你在這個數位娛樂軟體分級查詢軟體裡面很清楚嘛對不對很清楚然後跑到這邊來他就是滿12歲就是可以看嘛你提供的顯示性分級為限制級\n936249\t954154\t來到這邊就是沒有用嘛還是得到這邊要跟小朋友講說沒關係你媽自己為你挑刮你也不需要就可以玩了也不需要什麼親牛家長陪同是不是這樣現在未成年都已經人人有一台手機了嘛這個手機直接上網就馬上可以玩了嘛\n956348\t969615\t你跟我講怎麼管嘛這個遊戲的部分我們回去再瞭解一下就是因為他在不同的平台上的顯示你不能到現在跟我講回去要再瞭解現在就可以瞭解了嗎我現在在問你的政務方針機制在哪裡嗎因為剛剛他講說這是你管的啊\n972097\t986130\t你們怎麼管?管在哪裡?管理機制在哪裡?因為這個是我們產業署,那...產業署有人來嗎?今天的話今天是沒有到...所以你沒辦法代表產業署去回應任了?有問題,所以你必須要帶回去?那你看這樣夠不夠離譜?\n988601\t998469\t這個我們會帶回去研究了解不是啊,今天我不曉得你有沒有baby的啦齁那如果有還是說自己的親屬裡面有小朋友就這樣子啊這邊這邊有分級這邊就變成這樣了這不是很離譜\n1003260\t1027256\t好 謝謝委員指導那這個部分我們帶回去研究所以我是想說衛生年少年要上網的第一道把關我們就我們就管道離力大了管道破亂不堪這事情就會沒完沒了啦一定會沒有沒了啦因為主席站上來了我不想再講下去了我還是期待部長就法律的層面啦就各部會的整個整合還是希望部長\n1028337\t1030199\t我跟召委建議一下因為剛剛早上\n1043855\t1070157\t我是剝削案件,因為第一案的時候是有針對有討論過,那後來突然有表達是針對那個什麼創意料理啊創意師長,對不起啦那個不一定要檢討嘛對不對在這邊有確認嘛,我們也尊重突然的這個提案嘛那他現在我又聽說什麼一二三案一二三段要全部留下來\n1071838\t1100697\t然後聽說你們衛部也接受了因為我在現場我也是委員之一也是參與討論之一嘛那我聽到部長是沒有辦法接受嘛因為這邊寫了123段裡面都寫了818天818天他媽也計算得非常清楚然後寫說什麼使讓無數的犯罪影像在818天上架流通馬脈而這818天中衛部的消極不作為使無數女性的頸部裡面讓所有的癌童日夜哭泣\n1103458\t1127584\t你們要留這三段我是沒有意見喔你們自己去想清楚我是覺得因為徒偉是有特別提到就是說他後來是接受了嘛對不對是針對那個創意私房的一個檢討報告因為部長說針對你個人的這些供請你沒有辦法接受嘛要不然就到這個監察院不然就是提告嘛對不對那一二三段是誰去答應說可以這樣討論的\n1129561\t1144189\t那你也沒有尊重我們在場現場的委員因為我們最後聽到的是突然也接受是所謂針對創意私訪的檢討報告嘛啊這個報告你前面要一出一些話我沒有意見啊你沒覺得這一二三段是可以連結的因為當場沒有確認文字就不對了啦啊我是他們說你小孩了我快賭了嘛他們是你自己要賭啦對啊\n1155295\t1160268\t就請主席這個類似的看起來怎麼才是好不好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席。有請部長。好,我們有請部長。食藥署沒有來齁?沒有,今天沒有食藥署。好,沒問題。好。好,委員好。部長好。兒少性剝削的事情等一下跟你討論啦齁。我還是先討論實案的問題齁。\n因為我上禮拜在這地方有特別提到嘛,部長應該都急於遊行。那後來我看到相關的一些報告之後,還有看到台北市議會市長、蔣市長的答詢。我有點驚訝啦,怎麼會是這樣。因為那一天應該,我不曉得前後的時間是怎麼樣。我記得很清楚嘛,我把那個整個時序都有列出來。\n3月14日台北市衛生局就到這個保齡茶室去採檢那當天沒有查扣任何食材嘛 對不對如果同時依照食藥署訂出的疑似食品中毒事件處理要點這個第4點中也清楚地明白表示說食品中毒事件相關檢體之採集分工原則除此以之外\n他們當天24日當天只採了4個柿子就是除濕的那環境的\n怎麼好意思在那個殿堂講出說是衛福部不願查購食材?\n他是這麼講的嗎?\n沒有錯嗎?\n對不對?我認為這一句話是對衛福部來講非常不公平因為那個是26號26號我們的食藥署跟那個CDC還有專家一起過去那我們看了現場之後的話\n對﹖\n我就跟部長對這件事情做一個回應嘛齁那其實這麼講啦齁3月26日就扣了這麼多有沒有特別問過衛福部該扣不扣?要不要扣?沒有問嗎?基本上就是衛福部扣回來的如果你若搞你就死死你就把他扣回去嘛是嗎?如果說跟幾個人還要還衛福部還在煮然後最後是衛福部扣回來如果你如果認為應該扣的話你24號就扣走了啊\n對啊對啊那就很清楚嘛對這樣一講22就該扣嘛沒有扣嘛到26號才扣嘛對不對好那現在3月28號臟瘦屍又發生食物中毒台北市依舊沒有扣任何的食物這個食物你說哪一件3月28號臟瘦屍臟瘦屍對不對一樣沒有扣\n所以這一次衛生部就通知全國各地的藏獸師的分店所在的衛生局就全部通通要去做檢查\n對,所以我是要講說之前在上週我就特別提到說台北市去引用舊的這個食品中毒採樣的操作手冊嘛而不是有明確通報流程分工的這個疑似食品中毒的事件處理要點我覺得這一個很關鍵,也很致命啊然後甚至於這個凱凱案這個之前我在這邊也請教過部長\n民間衛福部都有頒布自家縣市政府應用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則當時那用最高的標準來規範這些進行家外安置的兒童的保母人員那當時部長是回我說台北市覺得他們的資源足夠所以不用這個處理的原則\n那你給我回答嗎?那時候他們真的很這樣所以本身他們這種需要家外安置的他們認為說他們的那個寄養家庭的家數是夠的所以沒有特別要去指定說這種所謂的保母來做這件事情對啊你看這個後續就發生這個案子發生凱凱案他們資源足夠不需要遵照中央頒布的要點那上面他又引用錯誤的\n去用舊的手冊不用新頒布的要點分工清楚通報清楚\n這部分的話其實我也講過啦我其實是蠻同情我們的那個衛生局的基層同仁去到現場他沒有辦法去分辨什麼是叫做儀式的食品啦食語的話是大家都知道但是儀式食品的話在當場的判斷也許就沒有那麼周延這我曾經也講過說我是認為說不要太過苛責我們的那個基層第一線的工作人員\n我知道,部長已經講過但是齁,你用這樣倒頭把責任推給中央政府的話,我是覺得,講得這麼難聽,好像太沒有江湖道義了我就是覺得,像你講的這句話,所以我不知道要不要再問一次\n所以這有來現在也要拜託教育啦如果說中央跟地方針對一個頒布的要點執行上還是認知上的遵循落差這麼大其實這種事情會層出不窮啦不只是食安嘛連這個凱凱的事件都還會再發生嘛\n對,但是後面我們會盡量來改善啦,就是說讓這不清楚的地方越來越清楚啦。是啦,啊如果,如果,如果,如果教育也可以邀請給國管企業來一個專案報告,將比中央辦部的要點看到底要怎麼,要怎麼樣的認知才有辦法去諸選嘛,這樣才不會有相關的這個或許事情一直在發生嘛。\n因為台中現在越有一個知名的料理店、越有花生的食安問題,層出不窮啦,層出不窮。我要回到今天的主題了,兒少性剝削。我想今天很多委員都已經討論過,我要在這邊具體要求部長是不是在本月,就最好在5月20日之前,就把行政院院板提出來。\n因為大家都加重法則加重這個提醒其實還有很多面向必須要去做修正討論的啦有沒有辦法?我們不要說院版啦因為院版他就要走一定的程序那大概520之前大概不太可能會進到這邊就是說衛福部有沒有想過什麼樣的一個條文修正的方向你去參考的條文的資料有沒有部長要直接答覆我啊?\n對,如果你問的是這樣的,我就說我們可以做得到不是啦,你們有沒有,原本就有想法要去針對哪幾個法條去做修正嘛有啦,我們有想法有嘛,你要回答我有嘛,你不能只有想而已嘛但是現在不能說那個就怨煩啦好啦,沒關係啦,就是你有要保護自己的生活,要想幾條來做比較專門性的這樣的一個思考然後去預防嚇阻這個事情再發生嘛,那如果有就好\n我現在從這件事情去延伸另外的兩個事件我想這一個\n那個網紅捅神那件事情不然應該有所掌握吧?我知道他的言論等等等啦齁你看齁這個不是一個個案齁他他他其實是一個他的背景我都不需要再介紹了不過他在當下用了很多這個問候人家清楚齁不雅的言論嘛齁除此之外還有涉及到什麼會討論到黑幫啦禁料啦反正就是兒少不宜的內容\n這些內容如果放在電視或是電台啦齁那依照廣播電視法21條早就被滑到關台了啦早就嘛齁那我們的台灣好像對對這個YT啦齁Youtube齁然後還有網路上的這個管理\n太多太多的問題 太多太多的盲點\n我想網絡行為延遲要受到言論的自由保護但是如果衛生連還收看到這些影音的作品政府不應該都不設限對不對那你看這些不適合衛生連收看的內容言論只要在網絡平台發布全部都變成無法可管甚至今天的衛部、速發部、NCC、主管機關也都在現場我不曉得你們到底到底要把網絡世界當成一個三不管地帶嗎\n也不行嘛,也不可能嘛,對不對?對啦,這部分的話我們還是會來找各個部會一起來討論一下啦我們在93年的時候新聞局頒布了電腦網路的內容分析處理辦法進入網站的分析制度但101年的時候由NCC繪紙本法轉由這個兒少權力保障法第46條來管理嘛,對不對?\n那內容民電主管機關要辦理事項其中包含就有內容分析制度之推動還有檢討過濾軟體之建立及推動這個網站的分析制度到底誰在處理?怎麼處理?現在處理的什麼?怎樣的狀況?\n現在兒少網際網路內容的防護是由NCC邀請相關部會來委託民間辦理現在針對網際網路的內容防護其實它沒有辦法用分級它是用防護的概念有阻攔、警示、嚴格年齡限制還有禁止表現\n比如說那個成人網站他就是嚴格年齡限制他就必須可能是要刷卡或者是怎麼樣他不是鎖碼而已怎麼刷?怎麼刷?不是不是就是說不是啊你說嚴格的年齡限制嘛對不對要怎麼去確認他是不對這個年齡不適合去看他要怎麼刷才可以刷得開然後怎麼去確認他的年齡\n對就是說譬如說那個像國內你知道才打呼我你不知道不要打呼我是境內我大概知道的跟我委員報告境內的成人網站他要架設的時候譬如說像第四台他也有那個成人頻道對\n他就是會有說嘛那像那個一般的網站我現在在找網站你要講第4台是不一樣的他一定要入會要繳費才能收看所以他在繳費的現在網站是這樣嗎一定要入會有一些就是用這種機制如果沒有這些機制怎麼會叫做有一些啊等於另外有一些不會不用嗎因為有一些他不是標榜成人網站\n有一些他不是標榜成人網站所以只要標榜成人網站就必須不是不是講清楚只要標榜成人網站他就有一點點限制是不是這樣就是說我們那個如果有人檢舉沒有這樣的機制案例問就會出我現在問的這個事情是你在主管嗎?你在夜管嗎?\n是我們輔導IWIN機制網際網路內容防護機構的你們輔導的具體成效有讓這些未成年不會去接觸到這些有年齡限制的然後必須要有真正的年齡的驗證身份的確認才有辦法去到那個網站嗎?\n他是有一個申訴的機制如果缺乏這些機制不叫做申訴機制勒我知道如果沒有做好這件事情沒有啦沒有啦你們就是沒有做好啊沒有做好我才問啊有做好幹嘛問有做好就直接給你毆露啊\n你看嘛齁 來你自己看主席站上來我快點這段你要說了齁這有一部叫做來自深淵烈烈的黃金香動畫然後因為內容暴力血腥在國內的知名動畫平台上分級是18加限制級嘛對不對陳如你所講的必須登陸會員或符合特定條件才能觀看陳如你所講的沒有錯來但是在youtube上一樣作品代理商直接上傳影片警方上\n警語本集內容敏感畫面可能引起不適觀看前請衡量自身狀態衛生人建立由成年親友陪同遲到觀賞要刷什麼卡這個連YouTube會員都不用登錄就可以直接觀看這個動畫怎麼會這樣\n現在是大家家長大家自有心證來確定然後用感覺來分析嗎?這個用警語有道理嗎?不是不是這個用警語有道理嗎?在這邊要滿18歲在這邊用警語如果這些就是因為他其實網際網路內容防護他有一個歷史框架如果是有需要的話我們再來請那個艾運什麼叫做有需要你現在看到這個狀況就發生了怎麼會沒有需要\n您這很簡單。你就不用分級。免登錄、錄帳、職能收看也不需要什麼寫家長親友、什麼成年親友陪同。什麼叫成年親友陪同?這種親友好像黑道的用詞。親友團在說什麼?\n我們會請艾文來瞭解這個案例我再用一個例子給你看部長這個在網站上查詢這款叫做什麽12支天M的遊戲為限制級的遊戲實際到了Google的平台下載遊戲時平台是顯示也是12家那下一款遊戲你注意看下一款遊戲在分級平台上有顯示性分類為限制級\n但到庫格平台的時候也顯示性案事但他仍然只有到12家什麼意思?滿12歲就可以看了遊戲軟體是數位部產業署他們在輔導在分級啦對阿跟你不關那樣嗎是不是來阿數位部的人是什麼狀況這個是滿12歲就可以看是不是\n你在分級平台上已經有顯示性的內容喔分類為限制級不好意思跟委員報告那這個部分這個網路的你在這個數位娛樂軟體分級查詢軟體裡面很清楚嘛對不對很清楚然後跑到這邊來他就是滿12歲就是可以看嘛你提供的顯示性分級為限制級\n來到這邊就是沒有用嘛還是得到這邊要跟小朋友講說沒關係你媽自己為你挑刮你也不需要就可以玩了也不需要什麼親牛家長陪同是不是這樣現在未成年都已經人人有一台手機了嘛這個手機直接上網就馬上可以玩了嘛\n你跟我講怎麼管嘛這個遊戲的部分我們回去再瞭解一下就是因為他在不同的平台上的顯示你不能到現在跟我講回去要再瞭解現在就可以瞭解了嗎我現在在問你的政務方針機制在哪裡嗎因為剛剛他講說這是你管的啊\n你們怎麼管?管在哪裡?管理機制在哪裡?因為這個是我們產業署,那...產業署有人來嗎?今天的話今天是沒有到...所以你沒辦法代表產業署去回應任了?有問題,所以你必須要帶回去?那你看這樣夠不夠離譜?\n這個我們會帶回去研究了解不是啊,今天我不曉得你有沒有baby的啦齁那如果有還是說自己的親屬裡面有小朋友就這樣子啊這邊這邊有分級這邊就變成這樣了這不是很離譜\n好 謝謝委員指導那這個部分我們帶回去研究所以我是想說衛生年少年要上網的第一道把關我們就我們就管道離力大了管道破亂不堪這事情就會沒完沒了啦一定會沒有沒了啦因為主席站上來了我不想再講下去了我還是期待部長就法律的層面啦就各部會的整個整合還是希望部長\n我跟召委建議一下因為剛剛早上\n我是剝削案件,因為第一案的時候是有針對有討論過,那後來突然有表達是針對那個什麼創意料理啊創意師長,對不起啦那個不一定要檢討嘛對不對在這邊有確認嘛,我們也尊重突然的這個提案嘛那他現在我又聽說什麼一二三案一二三段要全部留下來\n然後聽說你們衛部也接受了因為我在現場我也是委員之一也是參與討論之一嘛那我聽到部長是沒有辦法接受嘛因為這邊寫了123段裡面都寫了818天818天他媽也計算得非常清楚然後寫說什麼使讓無數的犯罪影像在818天上架流通馬脈而這818天中衛部的消極不作為使無數女性的頸部裡面讓所有的癌童日夜哭泣\n你們要留這三段我是沒有意見喔你們自己去想清楚我是覺得因為徒偉是有特別提到就是說他後來是接受了嘛對不對是針對那個創意私房的一個檢討報告因為部長說針對你個人的這些供請你沒有辦法接受嘛要不然就到這個監察院不然就是提告嘛對不對那一二三段是誰去答應說可以這樣討論的\n那你也沒有尊重我們在場現場的委員因為我們最後聽到的是突然也接受是所謂針對創意私訪的檢討報告嘛啊這個報告你前面要一出一些話我沒有意見啊你沒覺得這一二三段是可以連結的因為當場沒有確認文字就不對了啦啊我是他們說你小孩了我快賭了嘛他們是你自己要賭啦對啊\n就請主席這個類似的看起來怎麼才是好不好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.144 --> 00:27.273\n好,謝謝主席。有請部長。好,我們有請部長。食藥署沒有來齁?沒有,今天沒有食藥署。好,沒問題。好。好,委員好。部長好。兒少性剝削的事情等一下跟你討論啦齁。我還是先討論實案的問題齁。\n\n00:29.144 --> 00:48.829\n因為我上禮拜在這地方有特別提到嘛,部長應該都急於遊行。那後來我看到相關的一些報告之後,還有看到台北市議會市長、蔣市長的答詢。我有點驚訝啦,怎麼會是這樣。因為那一天應該,我不曉得前後的時間是怎麼樣。我記得很清楚嘛,我把那個整個時序都有列出來。\n\n00:50.269 --> 01:09.860\n3月14日台北市衛生局就到這個保齡茶室去採檢那當天沒有查扣任何食材嘛對不對如果同時依照食藥署訂出的疑似食品中毒事件處理要點這個第4點中也清楚地明白表示說食品中毒事件相關檢體之採集分工原則除此以之外\n\n01:10.859 --> 01:13.140\n他們當天24日當天只採了4個柿子就是除濕的那環境的\n\n01:29.850 --> 01:32.992\n怎麼好意思在那個殿堂講出說是衛福部不願查購食材?\n\n01:53.948 --> 01:54.349\n他是這麼講的嗎?\n\n01:54.349 --> 01:55.190\n沒有錯嗎?\n\n01:55.190 --> 02:10.888\n對不對?我認為這一句話是對衛福部來講非常不公平因為那個是26號26號我們的食藥署跟那個CDC還有專家一起過去那我們看了現場之後的話\n\n02:39.591 --> 03:03.137\n我就跟部長對這件事情做一個回應嘛齁那其實這麼講啦齁3月26日就扣了這麼多有沒有特別問過衛福部該扣不扣?要不要扣?沒有問嗎?基本上就是衛福部扣回來的如果你若搞你就死死你就把他扣回去嘛是嗎?如果說跟幾個人還要還衛福部還在煮然後最後是衛福部扣回來如果你如果認為應該扣的話你24號就扣走了啊\n\n03:08.820 --> 03:23.085\n對啊對啊那就很清楚嘛對這樣一講22就該扣嘛沒有扣嘛到26號才扣嘛對不對好那現在3月28號臟瘦屍又發生食物中毒台北市依舊沒有扣任何的食物這個食物你說哪一件3月28號臟瘦屍臟瘦屍對不對一樣沒有扣\n\n03:27.526 --> 03:32.149\n所以這一次衛生部就通知全國各地的藏獸師的分店所在的衛生局就全部通通要去做檢查\n\n03:51.359 --> 04:13.811\n對,所以我是要講說之前在上週我就特別提到說台北市去引用舊的這個食品中毒採樣的操作手冊嘛而不是有明確通報流程分工的這個疑似食品中毒的事件處理要點我覺得這一個很關鍵,也很致命啊然後甚至於這個凱凱案這個之前我在這邊也請教過部長\n\n04:15.595 --> 04:34.480\n民間衛福部都有頒布自家縣市政府應用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則當時那用最高的標準來規範這些進行家外安置的兒童的保母人員那當時部長是回我說台北市覺得他們的資源足夠所以不用這個處理的原則\n\n04:36.229 --> 05:03.551\n那你給我回答嗎?那時候他們真的很這樣所以本身他們這種需要家外安置的他們認為說他們的那個寄養家庭的家數是夠的所以沒有特別要去指定說這種所謂的保母來做這件事情對啊你看這個後續就發生這個案子發生凱凱案他們資源足夠不需要遵照中央頒布的要點那上面他又引用錯誤的\n\n05:05.053 --> 05:11.251\n去用舊的手冊不用新頒布的要點分工清楚通報清楚\n\n05:12.496 --> 05:41.641\n這部分的話其實我也講過啦我其實是蠻同情我們的那個衛生局的基層同仁去到現場他沒有辦法去分辨什麼是叫做儀式的食品啦食語的話是大家都知道但是儀式食品的話在當場的判斷也許就沒有那麼周延這我曾經也講過說我是認為說不要太過苛責我們的那個基層第一線的工作人員\n\n05:41.801 --> 05:58.474\n我知道,部長已經講過但是齁,你用這樣倒頭把責任推給中央政府的話,我是覺得,講得這麼難聽,好像太沒有江湖道義了我就是覺得,像你講的這句話,所以我不知道要不要再問一次\n\n05:59.335 --> 06:16.652\n所以這有來現在也要拜託教育啦如果說中央跟地方針對一個頒布的要點執行上還是認知上的遵循落差這麼大其實這種事情會層出不窮啦不只是食安嘛連這個凱凱的事件都還會再發生嘛\n\n06:17.273 --> 06:37.734\n對,但是後面我們會盡量來改善啦,就是說讓這不清楚的地方越來越清楚啦。是啦,啊如果,如果,如果,如果教育也可以邀請給國管企業來一個專案報告,將比中央辦部的要點看到底要怎麼,要怎麼樣的認知才有辦法去諸選嘛,這樣才不會有相關的這個或許事情一直在發生嘛。\n\n06:38.354 --> 06:57.213\n因為台中現在越有一個知名的料理店、越有花生的食安問題,層出不窮啦,層出不窮。我要回到今天的主題了,兒少性剝削。我想今天很多委員都已經討論過,我要在這邊具體要求部長是不是在本月,就最好在5月20日之前,就把行政院院板提出來。\n\n06:58.494 --> 07:26.788\n因為大家都加重法則加重這個提醒其實還有很多面向必須要去做修正討論的啦有沒有辦法?我們不要說院版啦因為院版他就要走一定的程序那大概520之前大概不太可能會進到這邊就是說衛福部有沒有想過什麼樣的一個條文修正的方向你去參考的條文的資料有沒有部長要直接答覆我啊?\n\n07:27.909 --> 07:52.265\n對,如果你問的是這樣的,我就說我們可以做得到不是啦,你們有沒有,原本就有想法要去針對哪幾個法條去做修正嘛有啦,我們有想法有嘛,你要回答我有嘛,你不能只有想而已嘛但是現在不能說那個就怨煩啦好啦,沒關係啦,就是你有要保護自己的生活,要想幾條來做比較專門性的這樣的一個思考然後去預防嚇阻這個事情再發生嘛,那如果有就好\n\n07:52.946 --> 07:57.978\n我現在從這件事情去延伸另外的兩個事件我想這一個\n\n07:59.898 --> 08:23.505\n那個網紅捅神那件事情不然應該有所掌握吧?我知道他的言論等等等啦齁你看齁這個不是一個個案齁他他他其實是一個他的背景我都不需要再介紹了不過他在當下用了很多這個問候人家清楚齁不雅的言論嘛齁除此之外還有涉及到什麼會討論到黑幫啦禁料啦反正就是兒少不宜的內容\n\n08:24.305 --> 08:41.138\n這些內容如果放在電視或是電台啦齁那依照廣播電視法21條早就被滑到關台了啦早就嘛齁那我們的台灣好像對對這個YT啦齁Youtube齁然後還有網路上的這個管理\n\n08:42.179 --> 08:44.140\n太多太多的問題太多太多的盲點\n\n08:59.717 --> 09:23.983\n我想網絡行為延遲要受到言論的自由保護但是如果衛生連還收看到這些影音的作品政府不應該都不設限對不對那你看這些不適合衛生連收看的內容言論只要在網絡平台發布全部都變成無法可管甚至今天的衛部、速發部、NCC、主管機關也都在現場我不曉得你們到底到底要把網絡世界當成一個三不管地帶嗎\n\n09:25.123 --> 09:49.599\n也不行嘛,也不可能嘛,對不對?對啦,這部分的話我們還是會來找各個部會一起來討論一下啦我們在93年的時候新聞局頒布了電腦網路的內容分析處理辦法進入網站的分析制度但101年的時候由NCC繪紙本法轉由這個兒少權力保障法第46條來管理嘛,對不對?\n\n09:50.785 --> 10:03.872\n那內容民電主管機關要辦理事項其中包含就有內容分析制度之推動還有檢討過濾軟體之建立及推動這個網站的分析制度到底誰在處理?怎麼處理?現在處理的什麼?怎樣的狀況?\n\n10:09.395 --> 10:32.742\n現在兒少網際網路內容的防護是由NCC邀請相關部會來委託民間辦理現在針對網際網路的內容防護其實它沒有辦法用分級它是用防護的概念有阻攔、警示、嚴格年齡限制還有禁止表現\n\n10:35.103 --> 10:58.332\n比如說那個成人網站他就是嚴格年齡限制他就必須可能是要刷卡或者是怎麼樣他不是鎖碼而已怎麼刷?怎麼刷?不是不是就是說不是啊你說嚴格的年齡限制嘛對不對要怎麼去確認他是不對這個年齡不適合去看他要怎麼刷才可以刷得開然後怎麼去確認他的年齡\n\n10:59.711 --> 11:14.336\n對就是說譬如說那個像國內你知道才打呼我你不知道不要打呼我是境內我大概知道的跟我委員報告境內的成人網站他要架設的時候譬如說像第四台他也有那個成人頻道對\n\n11:15.916 --> 11:41.866\n他就是會有說嘛那像那個一般的網站我現在在找網站你要講第4台是不一樣的他一定要入會要繳費才能收看所以他在繳費的現在網站是這樣嗎一定要入會有一些就是用這種機制如果沒有這些機制怎麼會叫做有一些啊等於另外有一些不會不用嗎因為有一些他不是標榜成人網站\n\n11:43.300 --> 12:00.240\n有一些他不是標榜成人網站所以只要標榜成人網站就必須不是不是講清楚只要標榜成人網站他就有一點點限制是不是這樣就是說我們那個如果有人檢舉沒有這樣的機制案例問就會出我現在問的這個事情是你在主管嗎?你在夜管嗎?\n\n12:00.740 --> 12:17.097\n是我們輔導IWIN機制網際網路內容防護機構的你們輔導的具體成效有讓這些未成年不會去接觸到這些有年齡限制的然後必須要有真正的年齡的驗證身份的確認才有辦法去到那個網站嗎?\n\n12:17.918 --> 12:31.684\n他是有一個申訴的機制如果缺乏這些機制不叫做申訴機制勒我知道如果沒有做好這件事情沒有啦沒有啦你們就是沒有做好啊沒有做好我才問啊有做好幹嘛問有做好就直接給你毆露啊\n\n12:33.311 --> 12:59.241\n你看嘛齁來你自己看主席站上來我快點這段你要說了齁這有一部叫做來自深淵烈烈的黃金香動畫然後因為內容暴力血腥在國內的知名動畫平台上分級是18加限制級嘛對不對陳如你所講的必須登陸會員或符合特定條件才能觀看陳如你所講的沒有錯來但是在youtube上一樣作品代理商直接上傳影片警方上\n\n13:00.356 --> 13:16.160\n警語本集內容敏感畫面可能引起不適觀看前請衡量自身狀態衛生人建立由成年親友陪同遲到觀賞要刷什麼卡這個連YouTube會員都不用登錄就可以直接觀看這個動畫怎麼會這樣\n\n13:20.273 --> 13:49.261\n現在是大家家長大家自有心證來確定然後用感覺來分析嗎?這個用警語有道理嗎?不是不是這個用警語有道理嗎?在這邊要滿18歲在這邊用警語如果這些就是因為他其實網際網路內容防護他有一個歷史框架如果是有需要的話我們再來請那個艾運什麼叫做有需要你現在看到這個狀況就發生了怎麼會沒有需要\n\n13:54.648 --> 14:09.221\n您這很簡單。你就不用分級。免登錄、錄帳、職能收看也不需要什麼寫家長親友、什麼成年親友陪同。什麼叫成年親友陪同?這種親友好像黑道的用詞。親友團在說什麼?\n\n14:13.359 --> 14:40.484\n我們會請艾文來瞭解這個案例我再用一個例子給你看部長這個在網站上查詢這款叫做什麽12支天M的遊戲為限制級的遊戲實際到了Google的平台下載遊戲時平台是顯示也是12家那下一款遊戲你注意看下一款遊戲在分級平台上有顯示性分類為限制級\n\n14:42.691 --> 15:00.823\n但到庫格平台的時候也顯示性案事但他仍然只有到12家什麼意思?滿12歲就可以看了遊戲軟體是數位部產業署他們在輔導在分級啦對阿跟你不關那樣嗎是不是來阿數位部的人是什麼狀況這個是滿12歲就可以看是不是\n\n15:09.795 --> 15:34.845\n你在分級平台上已經有顯示性的內容喔分類為限制級不好意思跟委員報告那這個部分這個網路的你在這個數位娛樂軟體分級查詢軟體裡面很清楚嘛對不對很清楚然後跑到這邊來他就是滿12歲就是可以看嘛你提供的顯示性分級為限制級\n\n15:36.249 --> 15:54.154\n來到這邊就是沒有用嘛還是得到這邊要跟小朋友講說沒關係你媽自己為你挑刮你也不需要就可以玩了也不需要什麼親牛家長陪同是不是這樣現在未成年都已經人人有一台手機了嘛這個手機直接上網就馬上可以玩了嘛\n\n15:56.348 --> 16:09.615\n你跟我講怎麼管嘛這個遊戲的部分我們回去再瞭解一下就是因為他在不同的平台上的顯示你不能到現在跟我講回去要再瞭解現在就可以瞭解了嗎我現在在問你的政務方針機制在哪裡嗎因為剛剛他講說這是你管的啊\n\n16:12.097 --> 16:26.130\n你們怎麼管?管在哪裡?管理機制在哪裡?因為這個是我們產業署,那...產業署有人來嗎?今天的話今天是沒有到...所以你沒辦法代表產業署去回應任了?有問題,所以你必須要帶回去?那你看這樣夠不夠離譜?\n\n16:28.601 --> 16:38.469\n這個我們會帶回去研究了解不是啊,今天我不曉得你有沒有baby的啦齁那如果有還是說自己的親屬裡面有小朋友就這樣子啊這邊這邊有分級這邊就變成這樣了這不是很離譜\n\n16:43.260 --> 17:07.256\n好謝謝委員指導那這個部分我們帶回去研究所以我是想說衛生年少年要上網的第一道把關我們就我們就管道離力大了管道破亂不堪這事情就會沒完沒了啦一定會沒有沒了啦因為主席站上來了我不想再講下去了我還是期待部長就法律的層面啦就各部會的整個整合還是希望部長\n\n17:08.337 --> 17:10.199\n我跟召委建議一下因為剛剛早上\n\n17:23.855 --> 17:50.157\n我是剝削案件,因為第一案的時候是有針對有討論過,那後來突然有表達是針對那個什麼創意料理啊創意師長,對不起啦那個不一定要檢討嘛對不對在這邊有確認嘛,我們也尊重突然的這個提案嘛那他現在我又聽說什麼一二三案一二三段要全部留下來\n\n17:51.838 --> 18:20.697\n然後聽說你們衛部也接受了因為我在現場我也是委員之一也是參與討論之一嘛那我聽到部長是沒有辦法接受嘛因為這邊寫了123段裡面都寫了818天818天他媽也計算得非常清楚然後寫說什麼使讓無數的犯罪影像在818天上架流通馬脈而這818天中衛部的消極不作為使無數女性的頸部裡面讓所有的癌童日夜哭泣\n\n18:23.458 --> 18:47.584\n你們要留這三段我是沒有意見喔你們自己去想清楚我是覺得因為徒偉是有特別提到就是說他後來是接受了嘛對不對是針對那個創意私房的一個檢討報告因為部長說針對你個人的這些供請你沒有辦法接受嘛要不然就到這個監察院不然就是提告嘛對不對那一二三段是誰去答應說可以這樣討論的\n\n18:49.561 --> 19:04.189\n那你也沒有尊重我們在場現場的委員因為我們最後聽到的是突然也接受是所謂針對創意私訪的檢討報告嘛啊這個報告你前面要一出一些話我沒有意見啊你沒覺得這一二三段是可以連結的因為當場沒有確認文字就不對了啦啊我是他們說你小孩了我快賭了嘛他們是你自己要賭啦對啊\n\n19:15.295 --> 19:20.268\n就請主席這個類似的看起來怎麼才是好不好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.144,"end":27.273,"text":"好,謝謝主席。有請部長。好,我們有請部長。食藥署沒有來齁?沒有,今天沒有食藥署。好,沒問題。好。好,委員好。部長好。兒少性剝削的事情等一下跟你討論啦齁。我還是先討論實案的問題齁。"},{"start":29.144,"end":48.829,"text":"因為我上禮拜在這地方有特別提到嘛,部長應該都急於遊行。那後來我看到相關的一些報告之後,還有看到台北市議會市長、蔣市長的答詢。我有點驚訝啦,怎麼會是這樣。因為那一天應該,我不曉得前後的時間是怎麼樣。我記得很清楚嘛,我把那個整個時序都有列出來。"},{"start":50.269,"end":69.86,"text":"3月14日台北市衛生局就到這個保齡茶室去採檢那當天沒有查扣任何食材嘛 對不對如果同時依照食藥署訂出的疑似食品中毒事件處理要點這個第4點中也清楚地明白表示說食品中毒事件相關檢體之採集分工原則除此以之外"},{"start":70.859,"end":73.14,"text":"他們當天24日當天只採了4個柿子就是除濕的那環境的"},{"start":89.85,"end":92.992,"text":"怎麼好意思在那個殿堂講出說是衛福部不願查購食材?"},{"start":113.948,"end":114.349,"text":"他是這麼講的嗎?"},{"start":114.349,"end":115.19,"text":"沒有錯嗎?"},{"start":115.19,"end":130.888,"text":"對不對?我認為這一句話是對衛福部來講非常不公平因為那個是26號26號我們的食藥署跟那個CDC還有專家一起過去那我們看了現場之後的話"},{"start":132.79,"end":159.343,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":159.591,"end":183.137,"text":"我就跟部長對這件事情做一個回應嘛齁那其實這麼講啦齁3月26日就扣了這麼多有沒有特別問過衛福部該扣不扣?要不要扣?沒有問嗎?基本上就是衛福部扣回來的如果你若搞你就死死你就把他扣回去嘛是嗎?如果說跟幾個人還要還衛福部還在煮然後最後是衛福部扣回來如果你如果認為應該扣的話你24號就扣走了啊"},{"start":188.82,"end":203.085,"text":"對啊對啊那就很清楚嘛對這樣一講22就該扣嘛沒有扣嘛到26號才扣嘛對不對好那現在3月28號臟瘦屍又發生食物中毒台北市依舊沒有扣任何的食物這個食物你說哪一件3月28號臟瘦屍臟瘦屍對不對一樣沒有扣"},{"start":207.526,"end":212.149,"text":"所以這一次衛生部就通知全國各地的藏獸師的分店所在的衛生局就全部通通要去做檢查"},{"start":231.359,"end":253.811,"text":"對,所以我是要講說之前在上週我就特別提到說台北市去引用舊的這個食品中毒採樣的操作手冊嘛而不是有明確通報流程分工的這個疑似食品中毒的事件處理要點我覺得這一個很關鍵,也很致命啊然後甚至於這個凱凱案這個之前我在這邊也請教過部長"},{"start":255.595,"end":274.48,"text":"民間衛福部都有頒布自家縣市政府應用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則當時那用最高的標準來規範這些進行家外安置的兒童的保母人員那當時部長是回我說台北市覺得他們的資源足夠所以不用這個處理的原則"},{"start":276.229,"end":303.551,"text":"那你給我回答嗎?那時候他們真的很這樣所以本身他們這種需要家外安置的他們認為說他們的那個寄養家庭的家數是夠的所以沒有特別要去指定說這種所謂的保母來做這件事情對啊你看這個後續就發生這個案子發生凱凱案他們資源足夠不需要遵照中央頒布的要點那上面他又引用錯誤的"},{"start":305.053,"end":311.251,"text":"去用舊的手冊不用新頒布的要點分工清楚通報清楚"},{"start":312.496,"end":341.641,"text":"這部分的話其實我也講過啦我其實是蠻同情我們的那個衛生局的基層同仁去到現場他沒有辦法去分辨什麼是叫做儀式的食品啦食語的話是大家都知道但是儀式食品的話在當場的判斷也許就沒有那麼周延這我曾經也講過說我是認為說不要太過苛責我們的那個基層第一線的工作人員"},{"start":341.801,"end":358.474,"text":"我知道,部長已經講過但是齁,你用這樣倒頭把責任推給中央政府的話,我是覺得,講得這麼難聽,好像太沒有江湖道義了我就是覺得,像你講的這句話,所以我不知道要不要再問一次"},{"start":359.335,"end":376.652,"text":"所以這有來現在也要拜託教育啦如果說中央跟地方針對一個頒布的要點執行上還是認知上的遵循落差這麼大其實這種事情會層出不窮啦不只是食安嘛連這個凱凱的事件都還會再發生嘛"},{"start":377.273,"end":397.734,"text":"對,但是後面我們會盡量來改善啦,就是說讓這不清楚的地方越來越清楚啦。是啦,啊如果,如果,如果,如果教育也可以邀請給國管企業來一個專案報告,將比中央辦部的要點看到底要怎麼,要怎麼樣的認知才有辦法去諸選嘛,這樣才不會有相關的這個或許事情一直在發生嘛。"},{"start":398.354,"end":417.213,"text":"因為台中現在越有一個知名的料理店、越有花生的食安問題,層出不窮啦,層出不窮。我要回到今天的主題了,兒少性剝削。我想今天很多委員都已經討論過,我要在這邊具體要求部長是不是在本月,就最好在5月20日之前,就把行政院院板提出來。"},{"start":418.494,"end":446.788,"text":"因為大家都加重法則加重這個提醒其實還有很多面向必須要去做修正討論的啦有沒有辦法?我們不要說院版啦因為院版他就要走一定的程序那大概520之前大概不太可能會進到這邊就是說衛福部有沒有想過什麼樣的一個條文修正的方向你去參考的條文的資料有沒有部長要直接答覆我啊?"},{"start":447.909,"end":472.265,"text":"對,如果你問的是這樣的,我就說我們可以做得到不是啦,你們有沒有,原本就有想法要去針對哪幾個法條去做修正嘛有啦,我們有想法有嘛,你要回答我有嘛,你不能只有想而已嘛但是現在不能說那個就怨煩啦好啦,沒關係啦,就是你有要保護自己的生活,要想幾條來做比較專門性的這樣的一個思考然後去預防嚇阻這個事情再發生嘛,那如果有就好"},{"start":472.946,"end":477.978,"text":"我現在從這件事情去延伸另外的兩個事件我想這一個"},{"start":479.898,"end":503.505,"text":"那個網紅捅神那件事情不然應該有所掌握吧?我知道他的言論等等等啦齁你看齁這個不是一個個案齁他他他其實是一個他的背景我都不需要再介紹了不過他在當下用了很多這個問候人家清楚齁不雅的言論嘛齁除此之外還有涉及到什麼會討論到黑幫啦禁料啦反正就是兒少不宜的內容"},{"start":504.305,"end":521.138,"text":"這些內容如果放在電視或是電台啦齁那依照廣播電視法21條早就被滑到關台了啦早就嘛齁那我們的台灣好像對對這個YT啦齁Youtube齁然後還有網路上的這個管理"},{"start":522.179,"end":524.14,"text":"太多太多的問題 太多太多的盲點"},{"start":539.717,"end":563.983,"text":"我想網絡行為延遲要受到言論的自由保護但是如果衛生連還收看到這些影音的作品政府不應該都不設限對不對那你看這些不適合衛生連收看的內容言論只要在網絡平台發布全部都變成無法可管甚至今天的衛部、速發部、NCC、主管機關也都在現場我不曉得你們到底到底要把網絡世界當成一個三不管地帶嗎"},{"start":565.123,"end":589.599,"text":"也不行嘛,也不可能嘛,對不對?對啦,這部分的話我們還是會來找各個部會一起來討論一下啦我們在93年的時候新聞局頒布了電腦網路的內容分析處理辦法進入網站的分析制度但101年的時候由NCC繪紙本法轉由這個兒少權力保障法第46條來管理嘛,對不對?"},{"start":590.785,"end":603.872,"text":"那內容民電主管機關要辦理事項其中包含就有內容分析制度之推動還有檢討過濾軟體之建立及推動這個網站的分析制度到底誰在處理?怎麼處理?現在處理的什麼?怎樣的狀況?"},{"start":609.395,"end":632.742,"text":"現在兒少網際網路內容的防護是由NCC邀請相關部會來委託民間辦理現在針對網際網路的內容防護其實它沒有辦法用分級它是用防護的概念有阻攔、警示、嚴格年齡限制還有禁止表現"},{"start":635.103,"end":658.332,"text":"比如說那個成人網站他就是嚴格年齡限制他就必須可能是要刷卡或者是怎麼樣他不是鎖碼而已怎麼刷?怎麼刷?不是不是就是說不是啊你說嚴格的年齡限制嘛對不對要怎麼去確認他是不對這個年齡不適合去看他要怎麼刷才可以刷得開然後怎麼去確認他的年齡"},{"start":659.711,"end":674.336,"text":"對就是說譬如說那個像國內你知道才打呼我你不知道不要打呼我是境內我大概知道的跟我委員報告境內的成人網站他要架設的時候譬如說像第四台他也有那個成人頻道對"},{"start":675.916,"end":701.866,"text":"他就是會有說嘛那像那個一般的網站我現在在找網站你要講第4台是不一樣的他一定要入會要繳費才能收看所以他在繳費的現在網站是這樣嗎一定要入會有一些就是用這種機制如果沒有這些機制怎麼會叫做有一些啊等於另外有一些不會不用嗎因為有一些他不是標榜成人網站"},{"start":703.3,"end":720.24,"text":"有一些他不是標榜成人網站所以只要標榜成人網站就必須不是不是講清楚只要標榜成人網站他就有一點點限制是不是這樣就是說我們那個如果有人檢舉沒有這樣的機制案例問就會出我現在問的這個事情是你在主管嗎?你在夜管嗎?"},{"start":720.74,"end":737.097,"text":"是我們輔導IWIN機制網際網路內容防護機構的你們輔導的具體成效有讓這些未成年不會去接觸到這些有年齡限制的然後必須要有真正的年齡的驗證身份的確認才有辦法去到那個網站嗎?"},{"start":737.918,"end":751.684,"text":"他是有一個申訴的機制如果缺乏這些機制不叫做申訴機制勒我知道如果沒有做好這件事情沒有啦沒有啦你們就是沒有做好啊沒有做好我才問啊有做好幹嘛問有做好就直接給你毆露啊"},{"start":753.311,"end":779.241,"text":"你看嘛齁 來你自己看主席站上來我快點這段你要說了齁這有一部叫做來自深淵烈烈的黃金香動畫然後因為內容暴力血腥在國內的知名動畫平台上分級是18加限制級嘛對不對陳如你所講的必須登陸會員或符合特定條件才能觀看陳如你所講的沒有錯來但是在youtube上一樣作品代理商直接上傳影片警方上"},{"start":780.356,"end":796.16,"text":"警語本集內容敏感畫面可能引起不適觀看前請衡量自身狀態衛生人建立由成年親友陪同遲到觀賞要刷什麼卡這個連YouTube會員都不用登錄就可以直接觀看這個動畫怎麼會這樣"},{"start":800.273,"end":829.261,"text":"現在是大家家長大家自有心證來確定然後用感覺來分析嗎?這個用警語有道理嗎?不是不是這個用警語有道理嗎?在這邊要滿18歲在這邊用警語如果這些就是因為他其實網際網路內容防護他有一個歷史框架如果是有需要的話我們再來請那個艾運什麼叫做有需要你現在看到這個狀況就發生了怎麼會沒有需要"},{"start":834.648,"end":849.221,"text":"您這很簡單。你就不用分級。免登錄、錄帳、職能收看也不需要什麼寫家長親友、什麼成年親友陪同。什麼叫成年親友陪同?這種親友好像黑道的用詞。親友團在說什麼?"},{"start":853.359,"end":880.484,"text":"我們會請艾文來瞭解這個案例我再用一個例子給你看部長這個在網站上查詢這款叫做什麽12支天M的遊戲為限制級的遊戲實際到了Google的平台下載遊戲時平台是顯示也是12家那下一款遊戲你注意看下一款遊戲在分級平台上有顯示性分類為限制級"},{"start":882.691,"end":900.823,"text":"但到庫格平台的時候也顯示性案事但他仍然只有到12家什麼意思?滿12歲就可以看了遊戲軟體是數位部產業署他們在輔導在分級啦對阿跟你不關那樣嗎是不是來阿數位部的人是什麼狀況這個是滿12歲就可以看是不是"},{"start":909.795,"end":934.845,"text":"你在分級平台上已經有顯示性的內容喔分類為限制級不好意思跟委員報告那這個部分這個網路的你在這個數位娛樂軟體分級查詢軟體裡面很清楚嘛對不對很清楚然後跑到這邊來他就是滿12歲就是可以看嘛你提供的顯示性分級為限制級"},{"start":936.249,"end":954.154,"text":"來到這邊就是沒有用嘛還是得到這邊要跟小朋友講說沒關係你媽自己為你挑刮你也不需要就可以玩了也不需要什麼親牛家長陪同是不是這樣現在未成年都已經人人有一台手機了嘛這個手機直接上網就馬上可以玩了嘛"},{"start":956.348,"end":969.615,"text":"你跟我講怎麼管嘛這個遊戲的部分我們回去再瞭解一下就是因為他在不同的平台上的顯示你不能到現在跟我講回去要再瞭解現在就可以瞭解了嗎我現在在問你的政務方針機制在哪裡嗎因為剛剛他講說這是你管的啊"},{"start":972.097,"end":986.13,"text":"你們怎麼管?管在哪裡?管理機制在哪裡?因為這個是我們產業署,那...產業署有人來嗎?今天的話今天是沒有到...所以你沒辦法代表產業署去回應任了?有問題,所以你必須要帶回去?那你看這樣夠不夠離譜?"},{"start":988.601,"end":998.469,"text":"這個我們會帶回去研究了解不是啊,今天我不曉得你有沒有baby的啦齁那如果有還是說自己的親屬裡面有小朋友就這樣子啊這邊這邊有分級這邊就變成這樣了這不是很離譜"},{"start":1003.26,"end":1027.256,"text":"好 謝謝委員指導那這個部分我們帶回去研究所以我是想說衛生年少年要上網的第一道把關我們就我們就管道離力大了管道破亂不堪這事情就會沒完沒了啦一定會沒有沒了啦因為主席站上來了我不想再講下去了我還是期待部長就法律的層面啦就各部會的整個整合還是希望部長"},{"start":1028.337,"end":1030.199,"text":"我跟召委建議一下因為剛剛早上"},{"start":1043.855,"end":1070.157,"text":"我是剝削案件,因為第一案的時候是有針對有討論過,那後來突然有表達是針對那個什麼創意料理啊創意師長,對不起啦那個不一定要檢討嘛對不對在這邊有確認嘛,我們也尊重突然的這個提案嘛那他現在我又聽說什麼一二三案一二三段要全部留下來"},{"start":1071.838,"end":1100.697,"text":"然後聽說你們衛部也接受了因為我在現場我也是委員之一也是參與討論之一嘛那我聽到部長是沒有辦法接受嘛因為這邊寫了123段裡面都寫了818天818天他媽也計算得非常清楚然後寫說什麼使讓無數的犯罪影像在818天上架流通馬脈而這818天中衛部的消極不作為使無數女性的頸部裡面讓所有的癌童日夜哭泣"},{"start":1103.458,"end":1127.584,"text":"你們要留這三段我是沒有意見喔你們自己去想清楚我是覺得因為徒偉是有特別提到就是說他後來是接受了嘛對不對是針對那個創意私房的一個檢討報告因為部長說針對你個人的這些供請你沒有辦法接受嘛要不然就到這個監察院不然就是提告嘛對不對那一二三段是誰去答應說可以這樣討論的"},{"start":1129.561,"end":1144.189,"text":"那你也沒有尊重我們在場現場的委員因為我們最後聽到的是突然也接受是所謂針對創意私訪的檢討報告嘛啊這個報告你前面要一出一些話我沒有意見啊你沒覺得這一二三段是可以連結的因為當場沒有確認文字就不對了啦啊我是他們說你小孩了我快賭了嘛他們是你自己要賭啦對啊"},{"start":1155.295,"end":1160.268,"text":"就請主席這個類似的看起來怎麼才是好不好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝"}]}}}}