{"id":151213,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151213","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627a2bf865f47b592ddcf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c94edfb78fde1fab8a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:26:41 - 09:38:57","影片長度":"00:12:16","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":736,"end_time":"2024-04-17T09:38:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T09:26:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":166,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時26分）謝謝主席。是不是請經濟部陳次長，還有財政部的莊部長、金管會的黃主委？"],["主席：請陳次長、莊部長、黃主委。"],["陳次長正祺：委員好。"],["林委員德福：陳次長你好。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["林委員德福：主委跟部長……"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["林委員德福：今天我們要討論的是非金融業的這些民間借貸業者，因為債務的問題滾雪球後所衍生的社會問題與亂象，我請問次長，這些民間借貸業者區分大、中、小型的規模，以現況的瞭解，和發生亂象關聯性較高的業者是以哪一種規模的業者較多？次長。"],["陳次長正祺：依我們瞭解，大部分會跟消費者有糾紛的主要還是中小型的。"],["林委員德福：我請問次長，又或者各類型業者都存在亂象的疑慮呢？因為部分的資產管理公司辦理民間的房貸二胎業務，是不是也存有相雷同這些融資公司的亂象？是不是？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，因為房貸的部分，我們經濟部沒有接觸，我們主要是針對消費者，比方說汽車做擔保品的部分，我們就會來協處。"],["林委員德福：我請問，像這些民間業者的主管機關，根據法令及實際的狀況，到底經濟部有沒有可以監察的權力啊？"],["陳次長正祺：我們手上的政策工具、相關的法律，最主要就是消費者保護法，如果它涉及消費者爭議，我們的一個政策工具就是規定定型化契約裡面應記載及不得記載事項，第二個是可以協助配合行政院消保處來協處爭議。"],["林委員德福：你們有沒有人力去管理？有沒有管理的人力？有沒有辦法解決這個亂象？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，這個應該要各部會來共同合作。"],["林委員德福：你們經濟部到底是扮演什麼角色？"],["陳次長正祺：我們就是消費者保護這一部分。"],["林委員德福：只有這一部分而已？"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["林委員德福：好，那你請回去。","我請教莊部長，因為今天公股行庫的董總都在場，你說目前八大行庫放款這些融資公司的餘額一共有1,246億元，我請問部長，真的只有放款這麼少給非金融業的民間借貸業者嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，到1月底為止，我們八家公股行庫對融資租賃業的貸款餘額是1,359億元，是這個數字。"],["林委員德福：因為十年前取消央行透過三商銀對民間借貸利率統計的作法，你認為有沒有重新啟動的必要性？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，中央銀行確實從民國59年到102年底有蒐集民間借貸利率這樣的事情，它的調查方式就是委託給三商銀，對臺北、高雄、臺中的一些往來客戶取樣調查，當然目前是沒有。至於要不要再重啟這個調查跟統計，我想這涉及到央行的權責，我們尊重央行的意見。"],["林委員德福：莊部長，請教是不是要透過調查統計資料才能夠更有機會來瞭解整個民間借貸亂象的背景成因，也才有辦法來找出很客觀、如何解決規範這些業者的辦法，你的看法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想是不是只能透過這個方式，我覺得倒也還可以再做研議，因為現行來說，不管剛剛經濟部也好，或者消保會，他們各部會其實都會用各自權責來做一些管理跟規範。同時剛剛也說相關的工會也訂了一些規範，那這個規範裡面很重要就是對一些利率的部分要能夠揭露，讓消費者能夠清楚自己所擔負的情形。"],["林委員德福：好，部長，你請回，我來請問主委。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝。"],["林委員德福：主委，對於「山道猴子的一生」這些動畫描述融資租賃公司推出先買後付這些業務導致消費性貸款的悲劇，那金管會銀行局表示有關切這件事，更讓立委關注點名中租、和潤，還有裕融等三大融資公司有承做貸款業務適法性的疑慮，請問主委，從這些融資貸款衍生的亂象擴大成社會的問題，站在貸放業務的金融監理角度來看，你認為有沒有大幅限縮這些合法融資公司承做這些貸放業務的必要？你認為呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟委員分幾點報告，第一點，貸放不是金融的特許業務，是根據民法所做的，那我們的業務報告也分析租賃公司有存在的價值，尤其前面講其五項業務中，至少有三項是對中小企業相關，不經過銀行體系提供credit而由融資公司提供，我覺得是有它的價值的。現在只是涉及個人融資，比方車貸或BNPL的部分，在行為面有一些大家誤譯的地方，這些地方我們就透過訂定自律規範、內控，還有甚至從金融機構端去做好授信風險的管理來強化，尤其您剛才提到的，比方說收高利還有人同時收違約金，這個都是不對的，在這次的自律規範中，我們都有要求它納入。"],["林委員德福：主委，如果要限縮應該要考量有哪些有別於金融業貸放門檻的條件；如果不限縮會不會因為過度放任，讓這些非金融借貸的低門檻，導致明顯無能力償欠款的民眾不只是透支財務，甚至於最後連生命都透支了，你的看法呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員您關切的非常重要，這也是為什麼我們在報告中第6、第7頁講到幾個重點，包括資訊的揭露，還有契約跟書面形式都要充分告知，這些我們都會從監理的專業結合消保相關的議題與財政部密切合作，因為這裡面金融機構對他的授信也是一個需要去關切的地方，但是我覺得對於融資公司合法對一般中小企業做的這些授信業務跟這個事情是沒有關係的，我們在乎的是個人消費、車貸、BNPL等行為面的規範。"],["林委員德福：對，主委，因為車貸及信用等債務問題，全家燒炭自殺，民間團體憂心新型態融資債務變相讓債務人陷入以債養債、超貸陷阱衍生的亂象，我請問主委，就你瞭解，民間借貸現行法律幾乎完全沒有辦法可管，還是法令不夠周延，導致流於徒法不足以自行的困境，你的看法呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：現在依照民法最高利率是16%，所以原則上依照他的風險屬性在16%之內去收取，基本上並沒有違反最高利率的規定，但是現在就是在過程中，比方說其中間的違約金，或者說違約的時候另外再加計的利率有沒有讓消費者在一開始就知道，這些都是在這次整個調整過程中特別要去重視的。"],["林委員德福：主委，因為金管會表示，先買後付業及租賃業都屬於民間借貸，並不是金融特許事業，金管會也表態不是這些民間融資業的主管機關，請問主委，融資公司是不是因為缺乏主管的監督機關，所以才產生這些亂象？就你瞭解，立專法訂定主管機關是不是就能夠解決這些亂象？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實專法是選擇方案之一，但是我們認為現階段的問題是這些部分公司行為面的問題，所以包括金管會目前正在朝這方面去努力，我們所提出的幾個措施，我認為初步應該可以去處理社會關注的問題。"],["林委員德福：除了金管會以外，你認為應該由哪個部會來擔當主管機關是比較適合呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個因為是一個行政院層次的問題，我想金管會這邊不方便作回答。"],["林委員德福：就存在的問題啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["林委員德福：主委，財政部莊部長提醒各大公股銀行針對租賃公司授信案要強化貸後的管理，就是要追蹤它整個資金的用途，可見得只要有利可圖，就連國家也可以加入賺錢的行列。請問主委，依您看到底是人造成的亂象，還是錢造成的亂象？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我覺得造成這些問題是在制度上、執行上的一些不當，其實有很多BNPL，確實對年輕人來說，這幾千塊錢是給他一些方便，但是如果在執行面上有一些扭曲，的確會造成大家誤譯的現象。"],["林委員德福：公民銀行庫針對這些融資租賃公司授信案有能力或依循法令能夠充分貸後管理，追蹤資金的用途嗎？依您看有沒有辦法？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們督導的金融機構應該都有這種專業的能力，這是它本身核心的競爭力。"],["林委員德福：主委，這些民間借貸業者的狀況出現亂象，除了融資公司有主要責任外，包括提供資金的金主、借款周轉失靈的債務人，是不是也應該要抽絲剝繭來分析其來龍去脈，才不會流於頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，半桶水卻想一鍋端這個謬誤，請問主委，為什麼民間借貸的償債壓力大於金融借貸，民眾還是願意來買單？這些民眾到底是哪種心態？是不是因為被金融業借貸嚴格規定排擠，所以才會鋌而走險，導致以債養債的這種亂象，你的看法呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：利率反映風險，銀行體系提供的這些信用當然是在一定的風險範圍之內，那超越風險範圍可能就會衍生到其他類似相關……"],["林委員德福：那銀行的利率絕對是比民間的利率要低嘛！對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：但是要反映風險。"],["林委員德福：那他為什麼要找民間？這個問題的存在其實你們要去探討。"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為他的風險不太能夠被銀行接受，謝謝。"],["林委員德福：好，我想我時間到了，下次再問，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林德福委員的質詢。","接著我們請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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00:00:10,332\n謝謝謝謝主席是不是請經濟部陳次長還有這個財政部的莊部長陳次長、莊部長請還有金管會的黃主委黃主委請\n\n2\n00:00:22,458 --> 00:00:38,103\n委員好陳次長你好我們兩位主委跟部長我想今天我們要討論的是非金融業的這些民間借貸業者因為債務的問題滾雪球後所衍生的社會問題與亂象那我請問\n\n3\n00:00:46,910 --> 00:01:08,496\n市長這些民間借貸業者區分大中小型的規模以現況的了解和發生亂象關聯性較高的業者是以哪一種規模的業者較多?市長我們了解大部分會跟消費者有糾紛的主要還是中小型的市長我請問\n\n4\n00:01:10,799 --> 00:01:28,118\n又或者各類行業者都存在亂象的疑慮因為資產管理公司辦理房貸的民間二胎業務是不是也存有相雷同這些融資公司的亂象\n\n5\n00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:51,754\n報告委員因為房貸的部分我們經濟部沒有接觸我們主要是針對消費者有比方說汽車做擔保品的部分那我們就會來協助那我請問吼像這個這些民間業者的主管機關根據法令及實際的狀況經濟部到底你們有沒有可以監察的這個權利啊\n\n6\n00:01:53,635 --> 00:02:15,247\n我們手上的政策工具相關的法律最主要就是消費者保護法如果它涉及消費者爭議我們一個政策工具就是規定定型化契約裡面應記載及不得記載事項第二個是可以協助配合行政院消保處來協處爭議那你們有沒有人力去管理有沒有管理的人力有沒有辦法解決這個亂象\n\n7\n00:02:17,756 --> 00:02:36,187\n法務委員這個應該要各部會來各部會那你們經濟部到底扮演是什麼角色我們就是消費者保護這一部分只有這一部分而已是是好那你請回去那個莊部長我請教齁因為今天吶公股行庫的董總都在場那你說目前八大行庫換款\n\n8\n00:02:37,888 --> 00:02:41,912\n各位委員報告一月底為止我們八家公股行會對融資租賃業的貸款餘額是1359億這是這個數字是\n\n9\n00:03:03,331 --> 00:03:04,171\n中央銀行確實從民國59年到102年底有\n\n10\n00:03:19,255 --> 00:03:43,442\n收集民間借貸利率這樣的事情那他調查方式就是委託給商商營對臺北、高雄、台中的一些往來客戶取樣去做調查那當然目前是沒有那至於要不要再做這個重啟這個調查跟統計我想這涉及到央行的權責我們是尊重央行的一個意見的那莊部長我請教是不是要透過調查這個統計資料能夠更有機會來了解整個民間借貸\n\n11\n00:03:48,763 --> 00:03:57,566\n是,那我想,是不是只能透過這個方式,我覺得倒也還可以再做研議,因為現行來說,不管剛剛經濟部也好,或是消保會也好,他們其實大家都各部會都會用他們各自的一個全責的一個方式,\n\n12\n00:04:16,972 --> 00:04:19,954\n這個規範裡面很重要就是對一些利率的部分要能夠介入,讓消費者能夠清楚自己所擔負的一個情形。\n\n13\n00:04:32,543 --> 00:04:48,548\n那個部長你請回我來請問主委主委對於三道猴子的一生這些動畫描述這個融資主任公司推出先買後戶這些業務導致消費性的這些貸款的悲劇\n\n14\n00:04:50,129 --> 00:05:04,223\n那金管會銀行局表示有關切這件事更讓立委關注來點名中租、和潤還有裕隆等三大融資公司有成作\n\n15\n00:05:08,848 --> 00:05:09,808\n我跟委員分幾點報告第一點\n\n16\n00:05:37,878 --> 00:06:03,484\n貸放不是金融的特許業務是根據民法所做的那我們的業務報告也分析租用公司有存在的價值尤其前面講他五項業務中至少有三項是對中小企業相關不經過銀行體系提供credit而由融資公司提供我覺得是有他的價值的現在只是涉及個人融資比方車貸或BMPL部分在行為面\n\n17\n00:06:04,642 --> 00:06:08,505\n提到的比方說收高利還有人同時收違約金這個是不對的在這次的資歷規範中我們都有要求他去納入\n\n18\n00:06:27,247 --> 00:06:45,195\n主委,如果要限縮,應該要考量有哪些有別於金融業貸放門檻的條件?如果不限縮,會不會因為過度放任,讓這些非金融借貸的低門檻導致明顯無能力?\n\n19\n00:06:46,155 --> 00:06:53,383\n這也是為什麼我們在報告中第6、第7頁講到幾個重點包括資訊的揭露還有企業跟書面形式都要充分告知\n\n20\n00:07:05,756 --> 00:07:31,472\n這些我們都會從監理的專業那結合消保相關的議題跟財政部密切合作因為這裡面金融機構對他的授信也是一個需要去關切的地方但是我覺得對於融資公司合法對於一般中小企業的做的這些授信業務那跟這個事情是沒有關係的我們在乎的是個人消費車代BMPL的行為面的規範\n\n21\n00:07:32,372 --> 00:08:00,467\n主委因為車貸及信用等債務的問題全家燒炭自殺民間團體憂心新型態融資的債務變相讓債務人陷入倚債養債那超貸的陷阱衍生的亂象那我請問主委就你了解民間借貸現行法令的這個完全幾乎沒有辦法可管\n\n22\n00:08:09,731 --> 00:08:24,058\n現在依照民法最高利率是16那所以原則上依照他的風險的屬性在16之內去收取基本上是並沒有違反這個最高利率的規定但是現在就是在過程中\n\n23\n00:08:24,878 --> 00:08:40,125\n他中間的比方說你的違約金或者說你違約的時候你另外再加計的這個利率有沒有讓消費者在一開始就知道那這些都是在這次整個的調整過程中特別要去重視的\n\n24\n00:08:40,745 --> 00:08:59,501\n主委因為金管會表示要先買後戶後戶業以及租賃業都屬於民間借貸並不是金融特許事業金管會也表態不是民間融資業的這些主管機關那我請問主委\n\n25\n00:09:00,362 --> 00:09:15,541\n那這個融資公司是不是因為缺乏主管的監督機關啊所以才產生這些亂象就你了解立專法訂定主管機關是不是就能夠解決這些亂象\n\n26\n00:09:16,980 --> 00:09:17,180\n報告主席\n\n27\n00:09:38,936 --> 00:09:45,159\n財政部莊部長提醒各大公股銀行針對租賃公司受信案要強化代後的管理,就是要追蹤它整個資金的用途,可見\n\n28\n00:10:05,728 --> 00:10:17,259\n可見得只要有利可圖就連國家也可以加入賺錢的行列那我請問主委到底是人造成的亂象還是錢造成的亂象依您看\n\n29\n00:10:18,709 --> 00:10:18,909\n因為公民\n\n30\n00:10:40,729 --> 00:11:09,351\n銀行庫針對這些融資主任公司授信案有能力或法令依循能夠充分代後的管理追蹤資金的用途嗎一您看有沒有辦法我們督導的金融機構應該都有這種專業的能力這是他的本身的核心的競爭力主委這些民間借貸業者的狀況出現亂象除了融資公司有主要責任外提供資金的金主\n\n31\n00:11:10,552 --> 00:11:11,433\n財政部委員\n\n32\n00:11:41,294 --> 00:11:47,347\n金融業借貸嚴格規定來排擠稅收才會停額酬錢以債養債的這種亂象\n\n33\n00:11:49,639 --> 00:11:49,959\n李德輝委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6450\t10332\t謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請經濟部陳次長還有這個財政部的莊部長陳次長、莊部長請還有金管會的黃主委黃主委請\n22458\t38103\t委員好陳次長你好我們兩位主委跟部長我想今天我們要討論的是非金融業的這些民間借貸業者因為債務的問題滾雪球後所衍生的社會問題與亂象那我請問\n46910\t68496\t市長這些民間借貸業者區分大中小型的規模以現況的了解和發生亂象關聯性較高的業者是以哪一種規模的業者較多?市長我們了解大部分會跟消費者有糾紛的主要還是中小型的市長我請問\n70799\t88118\t又或者各類行業者都存在亂象的疑慮因為資產管理公司辦理房貸的民間二胎業務是不是也存有相雷同這些融資公司的亂象\n89920\t111754\t報告委員因為房貸的部分我們經濟部沒有接觸我們主要是針對消費者有比方說汽車做擔保品的部分那我們就會來協助那我請問吼像這個這些民間業者的主管機關根據法令及實際的狀況經濟部到底你們有沒有可以監察的這個權利啊\n113635\t135247\t我們手上的政策工具相關的法律最主要就是消費者保護法如果它涉及消費者爭議我們一個政策工具就是規定定型化契約裡面應記載及不得記載事項第二個是可以協助配合行政院消保處來協處爭議那你們有沒有人力去管理有沒有管理的人力有沒有辦法解決這個亂象\n137756\t156187\t法務委員這個應該要各部會來各部會那你們經濟部到底扮演是什麼角色我們就是消費者保護這一部分只有這一部分而已是是好那你請回去那個莊部長我請教齁因為今天吶公股行庫的董總都在場那你說目前八大行庫換款\n157888\t161912\t各位委員報告一月底為止我們八家公股行會對融資租賃業的貸款餘額是1359億這是這個數字是\n183331\t184171\t中央銀行確實從民國59年到102年底有\n199255\t223442\t收集民間借貸利率這樣的事情那他調查方式就是委託給商商營對臺北、高雄、台中的一些往來客戶取樣去做調查那當然目前是沒有那至於要不要再做這個重啟這個調查跟統計我想這涉及到央行的權責我們是尊重央行的一個意見的那莊部長我請教是不是要透過調查這個統計資料能夠更有機會來了解整個民間借貸\n228763\t237566\t是,那我想,是不是只能透過這個方式,我覺得倒也還可以再做研議,因為現行來說,不管剛剛經濟部也好,或是消保會也好,他們其實大家都各部會都會用他們各自的一個全責的一個方式,\n256972\t259954\t這個規範裡面很重要就是對一些利率的部分要能夠介入,讓消費者能夠清楚自己所擔負的一個情形。\n272543\t288548\t那個部長你請回我來請問主委主委對於三道猴子的一生這些動畫描述這個融資主任公司推出先買後戶這些業務導致消費性的這些貸款的悲劇\n290129\t304223\t那金管會銀行局表示有關切這件事更讓立委關注來點名中租、和潤還有裕隆等三大融資公司有成作\n308848\t309808\t我跟委員分幾點報告第一點\n337878\t363484\t貸放不是金融的特許業務是根據民法所做的那我們的業務報告也分析租用公司有存在的價值尤其前面講他五項業務中至少有三項是對中小企業相關不經過銀行體系提供credit而由融資公司提供我覺得是有他的價值的現在只是涉及個人融資比方車貸或BMPL部分在行為面\n364642\t368505\t提到的比方說收高利還有人同時收違約金這個是不對的在這次的資歷規範中我們都有要求他去納入\n387247\t405195\t主委,如果要限縮,應該要考量有哪些有別於金融業貸放門檻的條件?如果不限縮,會不會因為過度放任,讓這些非金融借貸的低門檻導致明顯無能力?\n406155\t413383\t這也是為什麼我們在報告中第6、第7頁講到幾個重點包括資訊的揭露還有企業跟書面形式都要充分告知\n425756\t451472\t這些我們都會從監理的專業那結合消保相關的議題跟財政部密切合作因為這裡面金融機構對他的授信也是一個需要去關切的地方但是我覺得對於融資公司合法對於一般中小企業的做的這些授信業務那跟這個事情是沒有關係的我們在乎的是個人消費車代BMPL的行為面的規範\n452372\t480467\t主委因為車貸及信用等債務的問題全家燒炭自殺民間團體憂心新型態融資的債務變相讓債務人陷入倚債養債那超貸的陷阱衍生的亂象那我請問主委就你了解民間借貸現行法令的這個完全幾乎沒有辦法可管\n489731\t504058\t現在依照民法最高利率是16那所以原則上依照他的風險的屬性在16之內去收取基本上是並沒有違反這個最高利率的規定但是現在就是在過程中\n504878\t520125\t他中間的比方說你的違約金或者說你違約的時候你另外再加計的這個利率有沒有讓消費者在一開始就知道那這些都是在這次整個的調整過程中特別要去重視的\n520745\t539501\t主委因為金管會表示要先買後戶後戶業以及租賃業都屬於民間借貸並不是金融特許事業金管會也表態不是民間融資業的這些主管機關那我請問主委\n540362\t555541\t那這個融資公司是不是因為缺乏主管的監督機關啊所以才產生這些亂象就你了解立專法訂定主管機關是不是就能夠解決這些亂象\n556980\t557180\t報告主席\n578936\t585159\t財政部莊部長提醒各大公股銀行針對租賃公司受信案要強化代後的管理,就是要追蹤它整個資金的用途,可見\n605728\t617259\t可見得只要有利可圖就連國家也可以加入賺錢的行列那我請問主委到底是人造成的亂象還是錢造成的亂象依您看\n618709\t618909\t因為公民\n640729\t669351\t銀行庫針對這些融資主任公司授信案有能力或法令依循能夠充分代後的管理追蹤資金的用途嗎一您看有沒有辦法我們督導的金融機構應該都有這種專業的能力這是他的本身的核心的競爭力主委這些民間借貸業者的狀況出現亂象除了融資公司有主要責任外提供資金的金主\n670552\t671433\t財政部委員\n701294\t707347\t金融業借貸嚴格規定來排擠稅收才會停額酬錢以債養債的這種亂象\n709639\t709959\t李德輝委員質詢\n","txt":"謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請經濟部陳次長還有這個財政部的莊部長陳次長、莊部長請還有金管會的黃主委黃主委請\n委員好陳次長你好我們兩位主委跟部長我想今天我們要討論的是非金融業的這些民間借貸業者因為債務的問題滾雪球後所衍生的社會問題與亂象那我請問\n市長這些民間借貸業者區分大中小型的規模以現況的了解和發生亂象關聯性較高的業者是以哪一種規模的業者較多?市長我們了解大部分會跟消費者有糾紛的主要還是中小型的市長我請問\n又或者各類行業者都存在亂象的疑慮因為資產管理公司辦理房貸的民間二胎業務是不是也存有相雷同這些融資公司的亂象\n報告委員因為房貸的部分我們經濟部沒有接觸我們主要是針對消費者有比方說汽車做擔保品的部分那我們就會來協助那我請問吼像這個這些民間業者的主管機關根據法令及實際的狀況經濟部到底你們有沒有可以監察的這個權利啊\n我們手上的政策工具相關的法律最主要就是消費者保護法如果它涉及消費者爭議我們一個政策工具就是規定定型化契約裡面應記載及不得記載事項第二個是可以協助配合行政院消保處來協處爭議那你們有沒有人力去管理有沒有管理的人力有沒有辦法解決這個亂象\n法務委員這個應該要各部會來各部會那你們經濟部到底扮演是什麼角色我們就是消費者保護這一部分只有這一部分而已是是好那你請回去那個莊部長我請教齁因為今天吶公股行庫的董總都在場那你說目前八大行庫換款\n各位委員報告一月底為止我們八家公股行會對融資租賃業的貸款餘額是1359億這是這個數字是\n中央銀行確實從民國59年到102年底有\n收集民間借貸利率這樣的事情那他調查方式就是委託給商商營對臺北、高雄、台中的一些往來客戶取樣去做調查那當然目前是沒有那至於要不要再做這個重啟這個調查跟統計我想這涉及到央行的權責我們是尊重央行的一個意見的那莊部長我請教是不是要透過調查這個統計資料能夠更有機會來了解整個民間借貸\n是,那我想,是不是只能透過這個方式,我覺得倒也還可以再做研議,因為現行來說,不管剛剛經濟部也好,或是消保會也好,他們其實大家都各部會都會用他們各自的一個全責的一個方式,\n這個規範裡面很重要就是對一些利率的部分要能夠介入,讓消費者能夠清楚自己所擔負的一個情形。\n那個部長你請回我來請問主委主委對於三道猴子的一生這些動畫描述這個融資主任公司推出先買後戶這些業務導致消費性的這些貸款的悲劇\n那金管會銀行局表示有關切這件事更讓立委關注來點名中租、和潤還有裕隆等三大融資公司有成作\n我跟委員分幾點報告第一點\n貸放不是金融的特許業務是根據民法所做的那我們的業務報告也分析租用公司有存在的價值尤其前面講他五項業務中至少有三項是對中小企業相關不經過銀行體系提供credit而由融資公司提供我覺得是有他的價值的現在只是涉及個人融資比方車貸或BMPL部分在行為面\n提到的比方說收高利還有人同時收違約金這個是不對的在這次的資歷規範中我們都有要求他去納入\n主委,如果要限縮,應該要考量有哪些有別於金融業貸放門檻的條件?如果不限縮,會不會因為過度放任,讓這些非金融借貸的低門檻導致明顯無能力?\n這也是為什麼我們在報告中第6、第7頁講到幾個重點包括資訊的揭露還有企業跟書面形式都要充分告知\n這些我們都會從監理的專業那結合消保相關的議題跟財政部密切合作因為這裡面金融機構對他的授信也是一個需要去關切的地方但是我覺得對於融資公司合法對於一般中小企業的做的這些授信業務那跟這個事情是沒有關係的我們在乎的是個人消費車代BMPL的行為面的規範\n主委因為車貸及信用等債務的問題全家燒炭自殺民間團體憂心新型態融資的債務變相讓債務人陷入倚債養債那超貸的陷阱衍生的亂象那我請問主委就你了解民間借貸現行法令的這個完全幾乎沒有辦法可管\n現在依照民法最高利率是16那所以原則上依照他的風險的屬性在16之內去收取基本上是並沒有違反這個最高利率的規定但是現在就是在過程中\n他中間的比方說你的違約金或者說你違約的時候你另外再加計的這個利率有沒有讓消費者在一開始就知道那這些都是在這次整個的調整過程中特別要去重視的\n主委因為金管會表示要先買後戶後戶業以及租賃業都屬於民間借貸並不是金融特許事業金管會也表態不是民間融資業的這些主管機關那我請問主委\n那這個融資公司是不是因為缺乏主管的監督機關啊所以才產生這些亂象就你了解立專法訂定主管機關是不是就能夠解決這些亂象\n報告主席\n財政部莊部長提醒各大公股銀行針對租賃公司受信案要強化代後的管理,就是要追蹤它整個資金的用途,可見\n可見得只要有利可圖就連國家也可以加入賺錢的行列那我請問主委到底是人造成的亂象還是錢造成的亂象依您看\n因為公民\n銀行庫針對這些融資主任公司授信案有能力或法令依循能夠充分代後的管理追蹤資金的用途嗎一您看有沒有辦法我們督導的金融機構應該都有這種專業的能力這是他的本身的核心的競爭力主委這些民間借貸業者的狀況出現亂象除了融資公司有主要責任外提供資金的金主\n財政部委員\n金融業借貸嚴格規定來排擠稅收才會停額酬錢以債養債的這種亂象\n李德輝委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.450 --> 00:10.332\n謝謝謝謝主席是不是請經濟部陳次長還有這個財政部的莊部長陳次長、莊部長請還有金管會的黃主委黃主委請\n\n00:22.458 --> 00:38.103\n委員好陳次長你好我們兩位主委跟部長我想今天我們要討論的是非金融業的這些民間借貸業者因為債務的問題滾雪球後所衍生的社會問題與亂象那我請問\n\n00:46.910 --> 01:08.496\n市長這些民間借貸業者區分大中小型的規模以現況的了解和發生亂象關聯性較高的業者是以哪一種規模的業者較多?市長我們了解大部分會跟消費者有糾紛的主要還是中小型的市長我請問\n\n01:10.799 --> 01:28.118\n又或者各類行業者都存在亂象的疑慮因為資產管理公司辦理房貸的民間二胎業務是不是也存有相雷同這些融資公司的亂象\n\n01:29.920 --> 01:51.754\n報告委員因為房貸的部分我們經濟部沒有接觸我們主要是針對消費者有比方說汽車做擔保品的部分那我們就會來協助那我請問吼像這個這些民間業者的主管機關根據法令及實際的狀況經濟部到底你們有沒有可以監察的這個權利啊\n\n01:53.635 --> 02:15.247\n我們手上的政策工具相關的法律最主要就是消費者保護法如果它涉及消費者爭議我們一個政策工具就是規定定型化契約裡面應記載及不得記載事項第二個是可以協助配合行政院消保處來協處爭議那你們有沒有人力去管理有沒有管理的人力有沒有辦法解決這個亂象\n\n02:17.756 --> 02:36.187\n法務委員這個應該要各部會來各部會那你們經濟部到底扮演是什麼角色我們就是消費者保護這一部分只有這一部分而已是是好那你請回去那個莊部長我請教齁因為今天吶公股行庫的董總都在場那你說目前八大行庫換款\n\n02:37.888 --> 02:41.912\n各位委員報告一月底為止我們八家公股行會對融資租賃業的貸款餘額是1359億這是這個數字是\n\n03:03.331 --> 03:04.171\n中央銀行確實從民國59年到102年底有\n\n03:19.255 --> 03:43.442\n收集民間借貸利率這樣的事情那他調查方式就是委託給商商營對臺北、高雄、台中的一些往來客戶取樣去做調查那當然目前是沒有那至於要不要再做這個重啟這個調查跟統計我想這涉及到央行的權責我們是尊重央行的一個意見的那莊部長我請教是不是要透過調查這個統計資料能夠更有機會來了解整個民間借貸\n\n03:48.763 --> 03:57.566\n是,那我想,是不是只能透過這個方式,我覺得倒也還可以再做研議,因為現行來說,不管剛剛經濟部也好,或是消保會也好,他們其實大家都各部會都會用他們各自的一個全責的一個方式,\n\n04:16.972 --> 04:19.954\n這個規範裡面很重要就是對一些利率的部分要能夠介入,讓消費者能夠清楚自己所擔負的一個情形。\n\n04:32.543 --> 04:48.548\n那個部長你請回我來請問主委主委對於三道猴子的一生這些動畫描述這個融資主任公司推出先買後戶這些業務導致消費性的這些貸款的悲劇\n\n04:50.129 --> 05:04.223\n那金管會銀行局表示有關切這件事更讓立委關注來點名中租、和潤還有裕隆等三大融資公司有成作\n\n05:08.848 --> 05:09.808\n我跟委員分幾點報告第一點\n\n05:37.878 --> 06:03.484\n貸放不是金融的特許業務是根據民法所做的那我們的業務報告也分析租用公司有存在的價值尤其前面講他五項業務中至少有三項是對中小企業相關不經過銀行體系提供credit而由融資公司提供我覺得是有他的價值的現在只是涉及個人融資比方車貸或BMPL部分在行為面\n\n06:04.642 --> 06:08.505\n提到的比方說收高利還有人同時收違約金這個是不對的在這次的資歷規範中我們都有要求他去納入\n\n06:27.247 --> 06:45.195\n主委,如果要限縮,應該要考量有哪些有別於金融業貸放門檻的條件?如果不限縮,會不會因為過度放任,讓這些非金融借貸的低門檻導致明顯無能力?\n\n06:46.155 --> 06:53.383\n這也是為什麼我們在報告中第6、第7頁講到幾個重點包括資訊的揭露還有企業跟書面形式都要充分告知\n\n07:05.756 --> 07:31.472\n這些我們都會從監理的專業那結合消保相關的議題跟財政部密切合作因為這裡面金融機構對他的授信也是一個需要去關切的地方但是我覺得對於融資公司合法對於一般中小企業的做的這些授信業務那跟這個事情是沒有關係的我們在乎的是個人消費車代BMPL的行為面的規範\n\n07:32.372 --> 08:00.467\n主委因為車貸及信用等債務的問題全家燒炭自殺民間團體憂心新型態融資的債務變相讓債務人陷入倚債養債那超貸的陷阱衍生的亂象那我請問主委就你了解民間借貸現行法令的這個完全幾乎沒有辦法可管\n\n08:09.731 --> 08:24.058\n現在依照民法最高利率是16那所以原則上依照他的風險的屬性在16之內去收取基本上是並沒有違反這個最高利率的規定但是現在就是在過程中\n\n08:24.878 --> 08:40.125\n他中間的比方說你的違約金或者說你違約的時候你另外再加計的這個利率有沒有讓消費者在一開始就知道那這些都是在這次整個的調整過程中特別要去重視的\n\n08:40.745 --> 08:59.501\n主委因為金管會表示要先買後戶後戶業以及租賃業都屬於民間借貸並不是金融特許事業金管會也表態不是民間融資業的這些主管機關那我請問主委\n\n09:00.362 --> 09:15.541\n那這個融資公司是不是因為缺乏主管的監督機關啊所以才產生這些亂象就你了解立專法訂定主管機關是不是就能夠解決這些亂象\n\n09:16.980 --> 09:17.180\n報告主席\n\n09:38.936 --> 09:45.159\n財政部莊部長提醒各大公股銀行針對租賃公司受信案要強化代後的管理,就是要追蹤它整個資金的用途,可見\n\n10:05.728 --> 10:17.259\n可見得只要有利可圖就連國家也可以加入賺錢的行列那我請問主委到底是人造成的亂象還是錢造成的亂象依您看\n\n10:18.709 --> 10:18.909\n因為公民\n\n10:40.729 --> 11:09.351\n銀行庫針對這些融資主任公司授信案有能力或法令依循能夠充分代後的管理追蹤資金的用途嗎一您看有沒有辦法我們督導的金融機構應該都有這種專業的能力這是他的本身的核心的競爭力主委這些民間借貸業者的狀況出現亂象除了融資公司有主要責任外提供資金的金主\n\n11:10.552 --> 11:11.433\n財政部委員\n\n11:41.294 --> 11:47.347\n金融業借貸嚴格規定來排擠稅收才會停額酬錢以債養債的這種亂象\n\n11:49.639 --> 11:49.959\n李德輝委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.45,"end":10.332,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請經濟部陳次長還有這個財政部的莊部長陳次長、莊部長請還有金管會的黃主委黃主委請"},{"start":22.458,"end":38.103,"text":"委員好陳次長你好我們兩位主委跟部長我想今天我們要討論的是非金融業的這些民間借貸業者因為債務的問題滾雪球後所衍生的社會問題與亂象那我請問"},{"start":46.91,"end":68.496,"text":"市長這些民間借貸業者區分大中小型的規模以現況的了解和發生亂象關聯性較高的業者是以哪一種規模的業者較多?市長我們了解大部分會跟消費者有糾紛的主要還是中小型的市長我請問"},{"start":70.799,"end":88.118,"text":"又或者各類行業者都存在亂象的疑慮因為資產管理公司辦理房貸的民間二胎業務是不是也存有相雷同這些融資公司的亂象"},{"start":89.92,"end":111.754,"text":"報告委員因為房貸的部分我們經濟部沒有接觸我們主要是針對消費者有比方說汽車做擔保品的部分那我們就會來協助那我請問吼像這個這些民間業者的主管機關根據法令及實際的狀況經濟部到底你們有沒有可以監察的這個權利啊"},{"start":113.635,"end":135.247,"text":"我們手上的政策工具相關的法律最主要就是消費者保護法如果它涉及消費者爭議我們一個政策工具就是規定定型化契約裡面應記載及不得記載事項第二個是可以協助配合行政院消保處來協處爭議那你們有沒有人力去管理有沒有管理的人力有沒有辦法解決這個亂象"},{"start":137.756,"end":156.187,"text":"法務委員這個應該要各部會來各部會那你們經濟部到底扮演是什麼角色我們就是消費者保護這一部分只有這一部分而已是是好那你請回去那個莊部長我請教齁因為今天吶公股行庫的董總都在場那你說目前八大行庫換款"},{"start":157.888,"end":161.912,"text":"各位委員報告一月底為止我們八家公股行會對融資租賃業的貸款餘額是1359億這是這個數字是"},{"start":183.331,"end":184.171,"text":"中央銀行確實從民國59年到102年底有"},{"start":199.255,"end":223.442,"text":"收集民間借貸利率這樣的事情那他調查方式就是委託給商商營對臺北、高雄、台中的一些往來客戶取樣去做調查那當然目前是沒有那至於要不要再做這個重啟這個調查跟統計我想這涉及到央行的權責我們是尊重央行的一個意見的那莊部長我請教是不是要透過調查這個統計資料能夠更有機會來了解整個民間借貸"},{"start":228.763,"end":237.566,"text":"是,那我想,是不是只能透過這個方式,我覺得倒也還可以再做研議,因為現行來說,不管剛剛經濟部也好,或是消保會也好,他們其實大家都各部會都會用他們各自的一個全責的一個方式,"},{"start":256.972,"end":259.954,"text":"這個規範裡面很重要就是對一些利率的部分要能夠介入,讓消費者能夠清楚自己所擔負的一個情形。"},{"start":272.543,"end":288.548,"text":"那個部長你請回我來請問主委主委對於三道猴子的一生這些動畫描述這個融資主任公司推出先買後戶這些業務導致消費性的這些貸款的悲劇"},{"start":290.129,"end":304.223,"text":"那金管會銀行局表示有關切這件事更讓立委關注來點名中租、和潤還有裕隆等三大融資公司有成作"},{"start":308.848,"end":309.808,"text":"我跟委員分幾點報告第一點"},{"start":337.878,"end":363.484,"text":"貸放不是金融的特許業務是根據民法所做的那我們的業務報告也分析租用公司有存在的價值尤其前面講他五項業務中至少有三項是對中小企業相關不經過銀行體系提供credit而由融資公司提供我覺得是有他的價值的現在只是涉及個人融資比方車貸或BMPL部分在行為面"},{"start":364.642,"end":368.505,"text":"提到的比方說收高利還有人同時收違約金這個是不對的在這次的資歷規範中我們都有要求他去納入"},{"start":387.247,"end":405.195,"text":"主委,如果要限縮,應該要考量有哪些有別於金融業貸放門檻的條件?如果不限縮,會不會因為過度放任,讓這些非金融借貸的低門檻導致明顯無能力?"},{"start":406.155,"end":413.383,"text":"這也是為什麼我們在報告中第6、第7頁講到幾個重點包括資訊的揭露還有企業跟書面形式都要充分告知"},{"start":425.756,"end":451.472,"text":"這些我們都會從監理的專業那結合消保相關的議題跟財政部密切合作因為這裡面金融機構對他的授信也是一個需要去關切的地方但是我覺得對於融資公司合法對於一般中小企業的做的這些授信業務那跟這個事情是沒有關係的我們在乎的是個人消費車代BMPL的行為面的規範"},{"start":452.372,"end":480.467,"text":"主委因為車貸及信用等債務的問題全家燒炭自殺民間團體憂心新型態融資的債務變相讓債務人陷入倚債養債那超貸的陷阱衍生的亂象那我請問主委就你了解民間借貸現行法令的這個完全幾乎沒有辦法可管"},{"start":489.731,"end":504.058,"text":"現在依照民法最高利率是16那所以原則上依照他的風險的屬性在16之內去收取基本上是並沒有違反這個最高利率的規定但是現在就是在過程中"},{"start":504.878,"end":520.125,"text":"他中間的比方說你的違約金或者說你違約的時候你另外再加計的這個利率有沒有讓消費者在一開始就知道那這些都是在這次整個的調整過程中特別要去重視的"},{"start":520.745,"end":539.501,"text":"主委因為金管會表示要先買後戶後戶業以及租賃業都屬於民間借貸並不是金融特許事業金管會也表態不是民間融資業的這些主管機關那我請問主委"},{"start":540.362,"end":555.541,"text":"那這個融資公司是不是因為缺乏主管的監督機關啊所以才產生這些亂象就你了解立專法訂定主管機關是不是就能夠解決這些亂象"},{"start":556.98,"end":557.18,"text":"報告主席"},{"start":578.936,"end":585.159,"text":"財政部莊部長提醒各大公股銀行針對租賃公司受信案要強化代後的管理,就是要追蹤它整個資金的用途,可見"},{"start":605.728,"end":617.259,"text":"可見得只要有利可圖就連國家也可以加入賺錢的行列那我請問主委到底是人造成的亂象還是錢造成的亂象依您看"},{"start":618.709,"end":618.909,"text":"因為公民"},{"start":640.729,"end":669.351,"text":"銀行庫針對這些融資主任公司授信案有能力或法令依循能夠充分代後的管理追蹤資金的用途嗎一您看有沒有辦法我們督導的金融機構應該都有這種專業的能力這是他的本身的核心的競爭力主委這些民間借貸業者的狀況出現亂象除了融資公司有主要責任外提供資金的金主"},{"start":670.552,"end":671.433,"text":"財政部委員"},{"start":701.294,"end":707.347,"text":"金融業借貸嚴格規定來排擠稅收才會停額酬錢以債養債的這種亂象"},{"start":709.639,"end":709.959,"text":"李德輝委員質詢"}]}}}}