{"id":151217,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151217","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627263beb0edecbdefdb57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c9416680b52cefca5135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:29:39 - 09:40:26","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":647,"end_time":"2024-04-17T09:40:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T09:29:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":259,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時29分）主席、各位委員、各位官員早。我請薛部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長好。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，最近的新聞說您是零負評，留任的機會非常地高，所以我也想問部長520之後，我們還有機會一起去考察循環杯嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：你可以用個人的名邀請我。"],["陳委員菁徽：下禮拜我也有約了一些循環杯的廠商來聊一下他們目前執行的困難點在哪裡，我也很希望可以跟部長有一些交流。"],["薛部長富盛：是，請陳委員多指教。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長如果有機會留下來的話，我也想請問您覺得未來環境部前三個需要處理的重要事項是什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員，那個可能性不存在，我剛剛已經跟媒體記者報告過了，基本上，我非常謝謝賴總統當選人讓我有機會繼續服務，但是……"],["陳委員菁徽：希望可以把您的經驗傳承下去。"],["薛部長富盛：一定會，沒有問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，再來我不知道部長會不會開到第三次的碳費審議會？"],["薛部長富盛：我們現在有在調查，本來是說4月底或者5月初，蔡署長，我們現在調查結果是怎麼樣，可以來回答一下嗎？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，目前還在聯繫調查當中。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為我們從媒體看起來，第二次開完會的結論，我覺得只要關心碳費這個議題的人會覺得會議的結論很令人傻眼，因為你們第二次會議最後是說初步獲得共識，包括碳費討論要有科學依據。要不要有科學依據，應該是一般人的常識。"],["薛部長富盛：不見得哦！"],["陳委員菁徽：然後要更瞭解國外碳費制度運作還有制定背後的政經原因，這跟第一次的會議結論幾乎重疊。第一次會議完就說希望可以蒐集國內外的數據來做碳費的研擬。"],["薛部長富盛：我跟陳委員報告，當初我們就期待費率審議委員會能夠更多元性，所以我們的委員真的是非常的多元，這些委員有一些人以前是沒有接觸到碳費這個議題的，以及他對整個產業結構、環境面這些東西事實上並不瞭解，所以需要給他們一些時間。"],["陳委員菁徽：原本這個目標是訂第一季什麼子法都要全部出來，結果看上次開會的結論還是前端的法制工作要完備，目前重心會放在這些法制作業，表示環境部似乎沒有把這些子法準備好，讓審議委員來審議，是嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：不過，我給陳委員報告，子法現在除了費率這一塊，其他的事實上都已經完成了，但是它必須走過行政程序，才能夠對外面預告，所以並不是那個問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以前端的法制工作還沒有完備？"],["薛部長富盛：只是說它還沒有定案，沒有正式公告，就不能拿那個資料給企業去做自主減量的計畫書撰寫。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，所以現在是4月底、5月初會有第三次的審議委員會？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個全民都在期待中。剛剛林月琴委員有問到說您是不是政策轉彎，但是您覺得沒有，可是如果原本6年前禁用4種一次性塑膠產品有這麼重要，你也覺得是一個政策的延續，這次你們的報告有二十幾頁，圖文並茂，非常精美，為什麼對這件事情隻字未提？"],["薛部長富盛：向陳委員報告，這個是政策面、策略面跟執行面，執行面比較偏向技術面，那技術面有時候跟我們當初的預期事實上是有一些落差的，所以技術面可以做調整。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以您覺得其實會有落差，2030年有一點困難達成，這是你的真心話吧？"],["薛部長富盛：是啊，因為民眾到傳統市場去買東西，不讓他用塑膠袋裝，大概很難。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我懂。"],["薛部長富盛：叫他帶著環保袋，我們希望如此，但是大概很難。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這樣我知道，所以未來的報告應該就不會有這句話了。剛剛有提到您的報告裡面有寫，你們現在已經限制了中型還有大型零售業者……"],["薛部長富盛：有開發票的……"],["陳委員菁徽：網購的產品要減塑，但是第一個重點是，不得使用PVC，PVC不只是對地球有危害，對人體也有危害。"],["薛部長富盛：沒錯。"],["陳委員菁徽：因此大型的個人賣家為什麼都沒有在包裝限制的對象裡面呢？大型的個人賣家C to C，因為你們這邊只有限制到中型跟大型的零售業者、網路平台。"],["薛部長富盛：最主要個人的部分就沒有納入我們的管制範圍內，不管它大跟小。或許這是一個漏洞。"],["陳委員菁徽：現在有很多小的青年創業家，他們都是個人賣家，很認同環境部的理念，所以你們如果可以提供相關的指引，還有獎勵機制的話，可以吸引這些認同你們環境部理念的個人賣家跟上，好嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝陳委員提供的建議。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是其實我剛剛講的這件事情，之前環保署回收基管會已經講過了，他之前的發言有說未來會針對C2C這種個人賣家，對於買家的類型訂定2.0版本的指引，來要求他們的包裝，2.0的版本在112年5月出來了，結果適用的範圍跟對象還是一樣，是零售業。"],["薛部長富盛：請賴署長。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我們這個是有定指引，因為個人賣家基本上比較難用法令去處罰，所以我們用指引來導引他。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我提供部長一個建議，比較大規模的個人賣家，其實我們可以去您說的這些零售業平台，他們一調交易資料就有了，所以你們可以從這些平台上比較大規模的賣家開始去限制，或者去鼓勵、推廣等等。","我們再來看你的指引，2.0版本的指引裡有一個自主管理計畫，內容包含民眾曾經陳情之品項，這是一個不太符合人性的指引，民眾曾經陳情就表示他曾經對它提出客訴，可能說這個包裝太華麗了、用了太多塑料了，結果你請這些業者自主管理，把被客訴的品項告訴你們，你覺得這有可能嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員，我在想這一條當初列進來基本上就是既然是自主管理，那過往的紀錄，說真的，credit就很重要了，你已經犯過錯，已經有這種紀錄，那這種人……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以他更不會講啊！因為他的credit很重要，他怎麼可能會把他自己被陳情的品項拿出來，列入他的自主管理計畫？應該不太可能吧。"],["薛部長富盛：很難講，因為搞不好他想要等於說去偷渡，我覺得現在資訊很公開，他假如心存僥倖……"],["陳委員菁徽：不想跟你的資訊對不起來就對了，這個意思啦。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：接下來您訂定的這個表格，裡面有規定包裝的重量不得超過產品整體重量的多少比率，很多民團都已經說你限制這個是沒有意義的，因為網購就是在COVID之後越來越多，像女生也許第一次去實體店，她知道自己的尺碼以後，後面就全部都用網購。所以訂定重量的40%、30%，我跟你說，就算是最輕、最輕的洋芋片，它的包裝都不會超過，所以這個是非常地寬鬆，因此如果網購的銷售是持續增加的，最理想的方法還是應該要利用循環袋、循環箱，才可以做源頭的管理，因為包裝不可能減少使用。"],["薛部長富盛：是，重複使用，我認可。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們來看一下108年的新聞稿，說111年循環袋、循環箱的比率要達到10%，結果你們自己的施行方法卻訂到113年至少達到2%，10%和2%是不是修正幅度也太大了？你們在推動循環箱是遇到什麼困擾？"],["薛部長富盛：賴署長，有沒有辦法來回答一下？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：在循環袋的部分，我們還是要要求業者來做，所以適用的法令是2%，那自願性的話，就是他們可以做得更多一點。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是你把10%修正成2%，一定有什麼原因吧？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：因為是法令規定，所以還是會做一些考量，因為還是有很多業者自願會做，會把循環袋的比例增加很多。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我覺得你們可以往這個方向去研擬……"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：比如說中南部，我們以前會把一些酒瓶收一收，然後就會拿去做資源回收，可以領回來一點錢，所以如果你們循環袋、循環箱……"],["薛部長富盛：做鼓勵的措施。"],["陳委員菁徽：可以這樣子去做回收，有一些誘因應該會更好啦！謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的質詢。","接下來我們請廖偉翔委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃秀芳","張雅琳","洪申翰","蔡易餘","劉建國","陳冠廷","楊曜","蘇清泉"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事\n業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"151217","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151217","tool":"pyannote","id":"151217-pyannote"},"job_id":"BWXR8uYW04ZJSsC8","queued_at":"2024-06-01 09:34:28","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-01 09:35:21","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151217"},{"time":"2024-06-01 09:35:22","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627263beb0edecbdefdb57f63d1b53b7532e46fd9b657bbe930b70c920121590e455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-01 09:35:42","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-01 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{\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 639.206, \"end\": 639.406, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 639.406, \"end\": 639.606, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 639.606, \"end\": 639.626, \"score\": 0.117}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"菁\", \"start\": 640.126, \"end\": 640.347, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"徽\", \"start\": 640.347, \"end\": 640.487, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 640.487, \"end\": 640.507, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,847 --> 00:00:25,848\n主席各位委員各位官員早我請薛部長好請薛部長部長好部長最近的新聞說您是零負評啊留任的機會非常的高所以我也想問部長520之後我們還有機會一起去考察循環杯嗎你可以用個人的名義邀請我\n\n2\n00:00:28,770 --> 00:00:55,315\n下禮拜我也有約了一些循環杯的廠商來聊一下他們目前執行的困難點在哪我也很希望可以跟部長有一些交流是來請陳文多指教部長如果有機會留下來的話我也想請問未來環境部您覺得前三個重要的事項您需要處理的是什麼陳文那個可能性不存在\n\n3\n00:00:57,833 --> 00:01:16,791\n我剛剛已經跟媒體記者報告過了基本上我非常謝謝賴總統當選人讓我有機會繼續服務希望可以把您的經驗可以傳承下去一定會這個沒有問題那再來呢我不知道部長會不會開到第三次的審議會碳廢審議會\n\n4\n00:01:19,721 --> 00:01:20,982\n跟委員報告目前還在聯繫調查當中\n\n5\n00:01:35,641 --> 00:01:56,424\n因為我們從媒體看起來第二次開完會的結論我覺得只要關心碳費這個議題的人會覺得會議的結論很令人傻眼因為最後你們第二次會議是說初步獲得共識包括碳費討論要有科學依據\n\n6\n00:01:57,705 --> 00:02:17,191\n要不要有科學依據這個應該是一般人的常識啦然後要更了解國外碳費這個制度運作還有制定的背後政經原因這跟第一次的會議結論幾乎重疊你第一次會議完就是說希望可以收集國內外的數據來做這個碳費的研擬\n\n7\n00:02:21,226 --> 00:02:44,088\n我跟前委員報告,當初我們會立審議委員會大家就期待說他能夠更多元性所以我們的委員裡面有來自真的是非常的多元那這些委員有一些以前他是沒有接觸到碳廢這個議題以及他對整個我們包括產業結構包括環境面這些東西事實上他們真的不了解\n\n8\n00:02:44,668 --> 00:03:12,614\n所以需要給他們一些時間原本這個目標是定第一季什麼執法都要全部出來結果看上次開會的結論還是前端的法制工作要完備目前重心會放在這些法制作業表示環境部似乎沒有把這些執法準備好讓審議委員來做審議是嗎不過我給陳委員報告執法現在除了費力這一塊其他的事實上都已經完成了\n\n9\n00:03:13,354 --> 00:03:42,236\n但是他必須走過行政程序才能夠對外面預告所以並不是那個問題所以前端的法治工作還沒有完備只是說他還沒有定案沒有正式公告你就不能拿那個資料給企業去做自主減量計畫的計畫書撰寫所以現在是4月底5月初我們會有第三次的審議委員會這個全民都在期待中\n\n10\n00:03:44,078 --> 00:04:06,472\n剛剛林月琴委員有問到說您是不是政策轉彎但是您覺得沒有可是如果原本這個6年前說禁用4種一次性塑膠產品有這麼重要你也覺得是一個政策的延續這次我們的報告有20幾頁喔圖文並茂非常精美為什麼這次的報告不提這件事情\n\n11\n00:04:07,332 --> 00:04:33,937\n給陳委員報告這個是政策面、策略面跟執行面有執行面比較偏向技術面那技術面有時候跟我們當初的議題事實上是有一些落差所以可以做調整啦技術面對所以您覺得其實會有落差嘛2030年有一點困難達成這是您的真心話吧是啊因為民眾你要叫他到傳統市場去買東西不用塑膠袋裝\n\n12\n00:04:35,177 --> 00:04:37,938\n您的報告裡面有寫個人這個你們現在已經限制了中型還有大型業者的零售業者開花票的\n\n13\n00:04:58,343 --> 00:05:19,008\n對網購的產品這個要減速但是呢第一個重點是好不得使用pvcpvc其實也是對我們人體健康危害所以他不只是對地球危害對人體也有危害因此在這個大型的個人賣家為什麼都沒有在包裝限制的使用對象裡面呢\n\n14\n00:05:21,179 --> 00:05:32,016\n大型的個人賣家CtoC因為你們這邊只有限制到中型跟大型的零售業者網路平台大型的賣家個人的\n\n15\n00:05:41,185 --> 00:05:59,237\n現在有很多小的這個青年創業家他們都是個人賣家是很認同環境部的理念的所以你們如果可以提供相關的指引還有獎勵機制的話可以吸引這些認同你們環境部理念的個人賣家就可以跟上\n\n16\n00:06:00,151 --> 00:06:16,603\n好嗎好謝謝陳文但是其實我剛講的這件事情之前呢你們的環保署回收機管會已經講過了對他之前的發言有說未來會針對C2C這種個人賣家對於買家類型訂定2.0版本的指引來要求他們包裝建議好這個2.0版本出來囉112年5月\n\n17\n00:06:28,414 --> 00:06:33,392\n結果呢你適用的範圍跟對象還是一樣是零售業啊\n\n18\n00:06:35,792 --> 00:06:40,496\n我提供部長一個建議大型的比較大的規模的個人賣家其實我們可以去您說的這些零售業的平台\n\n19\n00:06:58,069 --> 00:07:21,917\n他們一定要交易資料就有了所以你們可以從這些平台裡面比較大規模的開始去做限制或者去做鼓勵推廣等等好我們再來看你的這個指引喔你的這個2.0版本的指引裡面有一個叫做自主管理計畫自主管理計畫內容包含民眾曾經陳情之品項好\n\n20\n00:07:23,557 --> 00:07:44,650\n這個是一個不太符合人性的指引欸民眾曾經陳情就表示他曾經對他有做出一些客訴說你這個包裝可能太華麗了用了太多塑料了結果你請這些業者自主管理把他被客訴的品項告訴你們你覺得這個有可能嗎\n\n21\n00:07:47,356 --> 00:08:03,573\n陳委員我在想說這一條當初列進來基本上就是我們希望既然是自主管理那你過往的紀錄說真的credit就很重要你已經犯過錯已經有這種紀錄那這種人我們基本上是\n\n22\n00:08:04,053 --> 00:08:29,393\n所以他更不會講啊因為他的規定很重要他怎麼可能會把他自己被陳情的品項拿出來列入他的自主管理計畫應該不太可能吧很難講因為他認為搞不好我想要等於說去偷渡啦我覺得現在資訊很公開他想要希望很心很僥倖不想跟你的資訊對不起來就對了這個意思啦是\n\n23\n00:08:31,034 --> 00:08:58,116\n接下來您剛制定的這個表格裡面有規定說包裝的重量不得超過產品的重量的整體的多少啦整體的這個比例好很多民團都已經講到說你限制這個是沒有意義的因為網購就是在COVID之後越來越多像女生她也許第一次去實體店她知道自己的尺碼她後面就全部都用網購\n\n24\n00:08:59,717 --> 00:09:25,036\n所以這個重量40%、30%我跟你說就算是產品最輕最輕的洋芋片它的包裝都不會超過所以這個是非常的寬鬆因此如果持續這個網購的銷售是增加的最理想的方法我們還是應該要利用循環袋、循環箱才可以做源頭的管理因為你的包裝不可能減少那我們來看一下\n\n25\n00:09:28,378 --> 00:09:51,786\n這個是108年的新聞稿說111年循環帶循環箱的比例要達到10%結果呢你們自己實行方法卻定到113年至少達到2%10%跟2%是不是這個落差修正幅度也太大你們在推動循環箱是遇到什麼困擾\n\n26\n00:09:53,268 --> 00:09:55,809\n但是你把10%修正成2%一定有什麼原因吧?\n\n27\n00:10:13,018 --> 00:10:39,626\n因為是法令規定所以還是有一個就是會做一些考量啦但是他們自願性因為還是有很多業者他自願會做會把這個循環袋的比例會增加很多部長我覺得你們可以往這個方向去演你啊比如說我們中南部以前我們會把一些酒瓶收一收嘛然後就會拿去做資源回收可以領回來一點錢所以如果你們循環袋循環箱可以這樣子去做回收有一些誘因應該會更好啦\n\n28\n00:10:40,126 --> 00:10:40,507\n陳菁徽委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2847\t25848\t主席各位委員各位官員早我請薛部長好請薛部長部長好部長最近的新聞說您是零負評啊留任的機會非常的高所以我也想問部長520之後我們還有機會一起去考察循環杯嗎你可以用個人的名義邀請我\n28770\t55315\t下禮拜我也有約了一些循環杯的廠商來聊一下他們目前執行的困難點在哪我也很希望可以跟部長有一些交流是來請陳文多指教部長如果有機會留下來的話我也想請問未來環境部您覺得前三個重要的事項您需要處理的是什麼陳文那個可能性不存在\n57833\t76791\t我剛剛已經跟媒體記者報告過了基本上我非常謝謝賴總統當選人讓我有機會繼續服務希望可以把您的經驗可以傳承下去一定會 這個沒有問題那再來呢 我不知道部長會不會開到第三次的審議會 碳廢審議會\n79721\t80982\t跟委員報告目前還在聯繫調查當中\n95641\t116424\t因為我們從媒體看起來第二次開完會的結論我覺得只要關心碳費這個議題的人會覺得會議的結論很令人傻眼因為最後你們第二次會議是說初步獲得共識包括碳費討論要有科學依據\n117705\t137191\t要不要有科學依據這個應該是一般人的常識啦然後要更了解國外碳費這個制度運作還有制定的背後政經原因這跟第一次的會議結論幾乎重疊你第一次會議完就是說希望可以收集國內外的數據來做這個碳費的研擬\n141226\t164088\t我跟前委員報告,當初我們會立審議委員會大家就期待說他能夠更多元性所以我們的委員裡面有來自真的是非常的多元那這些委員有一些以前他是沒有接觸到碳廢這個議題以及他對整個我們包括產業結構包括環境面這些東西事實上他們真的不了解\n164668\t192614\t所以需要給他們一些時間原本這個目標是定第一季什麼執法都要全部出來結果看上次開會的結論還是前端的法制工作要完備目前重心會放在這些法制作業表示環境部似乎沒有把這些執法準備好讓審議委員來做審議是嗎不過我給陳委員報告執法現在除了費力這一塊其他的事實上都已經完成了\n193354\t222236\t但是他必須走過行政程序才能夠對外面預告所以並不是那個問題所以前端的法治工作還沒有完備只是說他還沒有定案沒有正式公告你就不能拿那個資料給企業去做自主減量計畫的計畫書撰寫所以現在是4月底5月初我們會有第三次的審議委員會這個全民都在期待中\n224078\t246472\t剛剛林月琴委員有問到說您是不是政策轉彎但是您覺得沒有可是如果原本這個6年前說禁用4種一次性塑膠產品有這麼重要你也覺得是一個政策的延續這次我們的報告有20幾頁喔圖文並茂非常精美為什麼這次的報告不提這件事情\n247332\t273937\t給陳委員報告這個是政策面、策略面跟執行面有執行面比較偏向技術面那技術面有時候跟我們當初的議題事實上是有一些落差所以可以做調整啦技術面對所以您覺得其實會有落差嘛2030年有一點困難達成這是您的真心話吧是啊因為民眾你要叫他到傳統市場去買東西不用塑膠袋裝\n275177\t277938\t您的報告裡面有寫個人 這個你們現在已經限制了中型還有大型業者的零售業者開花票的\n298343\t319008\t對網購的產品這個要減速但是呢第一個重點是好不得使用pvcpvc其實也是對我們人體健康危害所以他不只是對地球危害對人體也有危害因此在這個大型的個人賣家為什麼都沒有在包裝限制的使用對象裡面呢\n321179\t332016\t大型的個人賣家C to C因為你們這邊只有限制到中型跟大型的零售業者網路平台大型的賣家個人的\n341185\t359237\t現在有很多小的這個青年創業家他們都是個人賣家是很認同環境部的理念的所以你們如果可以提供相關的指引還有獎勵機制的話可以吸引這些認同你們環境部理念的個人賣家就可以跟上\n360151\t376603\t好嗎好謝謝陳文但是其實我剛講的這件事情之前呢你們的環保署回收機管會已經講過了對他之前的發言有說未來會針對C2C這種個人賣家對於買家類型訂定2.0版本的指引來要求他們包裝建議好這個2.0版本出來囉112年5月\n388414\t393392\t結果呢你適用的範圍跟對象還是一樣是零售業啊\n395792\t400496\t我提供部長一個建議大型的比較大的規模的個人賣家其實我們可以去您說的這些零售業的平台\n418069\t441917\t他們一定要交易資料就有了所以你們可以從這些平台裡面比較大規模的開始去做限制或者去做鼓勵推廣等等好我們再來看你的這個指引喔你的這個2.0版本的指引裡面有一個叫做自主管理計畫自主管理計畫內容包含民眾曾經陳情之品項好\n443557\t464650\t這個是一個不太符合人性的指引欸民眾曾經陳情就表示他曾經對他有做出一些客訴說你這個包裝可能太華麗了用了太多塑料了結果你請這些業者自主管理把他被客訴的品項告訴你們你覺得這個有可能嗎\n467356\t483573\t陳委員我在想說這一條當初列進來基本上就是我們希望既然是自主管理那你過往的紀錄說真的credit就很重要你已經犯過錯已經有這種紀錄那這種人我們基本上是\n484053\t509393\t所以他更不會講啊因為他的規定很重要他怎麼可能會把他自己被陳情的品項拿出來列入他的自主管理計畫應該不太可能吧很難講因為他認為搞不好我想要等於說去偷渡啦我覺得現在資訊很公開他想要希望很心很僥倖不想跟你的資訊對不起來就對了這個意思啦是\n511034\t538116\t接下來您剛制定的這個表格裡面有規定說包裝的重量不得超過產品的重量的整體的多少啦整體的這個比例好很多民團都已經講到說你限制這個是沒有意義的因為網購就是在COVID之後越來越多像女生她也許第一次去實體店她知道自己的尺碼她後面就全部都用網購\n539717\t565036\t所以這個重量40%、30%我跟你說就算是產品最輕最輕的洋芋片它的包裝都不會超過所以這個是非常的寬鬆因此如果持續這個網購的銷售是增加的最理想的方法我們還是應該要利用循環袋、循環箱才可以做源頭的管理因為你的包裝不可能減少那我們來看一下\n568378\t591786\t這個是108年的新聞稿說111年循環帶循環箱的比例要達到10%結果呢你們自己實行方法卻定到113年至少達到2%10%跟2%是不是這個落差修正幅度也太大你們在推動循環箱是遇到什麼困擾\n593268\t595809\t但是你把10%修正成2%一定有什麼原因吧?\n613018\t639626\t因為是法令規定所以還是有一個就是會做一些考量啦但是他們自願性因為還是有很多業者他自願會做會把這個循環袋的比例會增加很多部長我覺得你們可以往這個方向去演你啊比如說我們中南部以前我們會把一些酒瓶收一收嘛然後就會拿去做資源回收可以領回來一點錢所以如果你們循環袋循環箱可以這樣子去做回收有一些誘因應該會更好啦\n640126\t640507\t陳菁徽委員\n","txt":"主席各位委員各位官員早我請薛部長好請薛部長部長好部長最近的新聞說您是零負評啊留任的機會非常的高所以我也想問部長520之後我們還有機會一起去考察循環杯嗎你可以用個人的名義邀請我\n下禮拜我也有約了一些循環杯的廠商來聊一下他們目前執行的困難點在哪我也很希望可以跟部長有一些交流是來請陳文多指教部長如果有機會留下來的話我也想請問未來環境部您覺得前三個重要的事項您需要處理的是什麼陳文那個可能性不存在\n我剛剛已經跟媒體記者報告過了基本上我非常謝謝賴總統當選人讓我有機會繼續服務希望可以把您的經驗可以傳承下去一定會 這個沒有問題那再來呢 我不知道部長會不會開到第三次的審議會 碳廢審議會\n跟委員報告目前還在聯繫調查當中\n因為我們從媒體看起來第二次開完會的結論我覺得只要關心碳費這個議題的人會覺得會議的結論很令人傻眼因為最後你們第二次會議是說初步獲得共識包括碳費討論要有科學依據\n要不要有科學依據這個應該是一般人的常識啦然後要更了解國外碳費這個制度運作還有制定的背後政經原因這跟第一次的會議結論幾乎重疊你第一次會議完就是說希望可以收集國內外的數據來做這個碳費的研擬\n我跟前委員報告,當初我們會立審議委員會大家就期待說他能夠更多元性所以我們的委員裡面有來自真的是非常的多元那這些委員有一些以前他是沒有接觸到碳廢這個議題以及他對整個我們包括產業結構包括環境面這些東西事實上他們真的不了解\n所以需要給他們一些時間原本這個目標是定第一季什麼執法都要全部出來結果看上次開會的結論還是前端的法制工作要完備目前重心會放在這些法制作業表示環境部似乎沒有把這些執法準備好讓審議委員來做審議是嗎不過我給陳委員報告執法現在除了費力這一塊其他的事實上都已經完成了\n但是他必須走過行政程序才能夠對外面預告所以並不是那個問題所以前端的法治工作還沒有完備只是說他還沒有定案沒有正式公告你就不能拿那個資料給企業去做自主減量計畫的計畫書撰寫所以現在是4月底5月初我們會有第三次的審議委員會這個全民都在期待中\n剛剛林月琴委員有問到說您是不是政策轉彎但是您覺得沒有可是如果原本這個6年前說禁用4種一次性塑膠產品有這麼重要你也覺得是一個政策的延續這次我們的報告有20幾頁喔圖文並茂非常精美為什麼這次的報告不提這件事情\n給陳委員報告這個是政策面、策略面跟執行面有執行面比較偏向技術面那技術面有時候跟我們當初的議題事實上是有一些落差所以可以做調整啦技術面對所以您覺得其實會有落差嘛2030年有一點困難達成這是您的真心話吧是啊因為民眾你要叫他到傳統市場去買東西不用塑膠袋裝\n您的報告裡面有寫個人 這個你們現在已經限制了中型還有大型業者的零售業者開花票的\n對網購的產品這個要減速但是呢第一個重點是好不得使用pvcpvc其實也是對我們人體健康危害所以他不只是對地球危害對人體也有危害因此在這個大型的個人賣家為什麼都沒有在包裝限制的使用對象裡面呢\n大型的個人賣家C to C因為你們這邊只有限制到中型跟大型的零售業者網路平台大型的賣家個人的\n現在有很多小的這個青年創業家他們都是個人賣家是很認同環境部的理念的所以你們如果可以提供相關的指引還有獎勵機制的話可以吸引這些認同你們環境部理念的個人賣家就可以跟上\n好嗎好謝謝陳文但是其實我剛講的這件事情之前呢你們的環保署回收機管會已經講過了對他之前的發言有說未來會針對C2C這種個人賣家對於買家類型訂定2.0版本的指引來要求他們包裝建議好這個2.0版本出來囉112年5月\n結果呢你適用的範圍跟對象還是一樣是零售業啊\n我提供部長一個建議大型的比較大的規模的個人賣家其實我們可以去您說的這些零售業的平台\n他們一定要交易資料就有了所以你們可以從這些平台裡面比較大規模的開始去做限制或者去做鼓勵推廣等等好我們再來看你的這個指引喔你的這個2.0版本的指引裡面有一個叫做自主管理計畫自主管理計畫內容包含民眾曾經陳情之品項好\n這個是一個不太符合人性的指引欸民眾曾經陳情就表示他曾經對他有做出一些客訴說你這個包裝可能太華麗了用了太多塑料了結果你請這些業者自主管理把他被客訴的品項告訴你們你覺得這個有可能嗎\n陳委員我在想說這一條當初列進來基本上就是我們希望既然是自主管理那你過往的紀錄說真的credit就很重要你已經犯過錯已經有這種紀錄那這種人我們基本上是\n所以他更不會講啊因為他的規定很重要他怎麼可能會把他自己被陳情的品項拿出來列入他的自主管理計畫應該不太可能吧很難講因為他認為搞不好我想要等於說去偷渡啦我覺得現在資訊很公開他想要希望很心很僥倖不想跟你的資訊對不起來就對了這個意思啦是\n接下來您剛制定的這個表格裡面有規定說包裝的重量不得超過產品的重量的整體的多少啦整體的這個比例好很多民團都已經講到說你限制這個是沒有意義的因為網購就是在COVID之後越來越多像女生她也許第一次去實體店她知道自己的尺碼她後面就全部都用網購\n所以這個重量40%、30%我跟你說就算是產品最輕最輕的洋芋片它的包裝都不會超過所以這個是非常的寬鬆因此如果持續這個網購的銷售是增加的最理想的方法我們還是應該要利用循環袋、循環箱才可以做源頭的管理因為你的包裝不可能減少那我們來看一下\n這個是108年的新聞稿說111年循環帶循環箱的比例要達到10%結果呢你們自己實行方法卻定到113年至少達到2%10%跟2%是不是這個落差修正幅度也太大你們在推動循環箱是遇到什麼困擾\n但是你把10%修正成2%一定有什麼原因吧?\n因為是法令規定所以還是有一個就是會做一些考量啦但是他們自願性因為還是有很多業者他自願會做會把這個循環袋的比例會增加很多部長我覺得你們可以往這個方向去演你啊比如說我們中南部以前我們會把一些酒瓶收一收嘛然後就會拿去做資源回收可以領回來一點錢所以如果你們循環袋循環箱可以這樣子去做回收有一些誘因應該會更好啦\n陳菁徽委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.847 --> 00:25.848\n主席各位委員各位官員早我請薛部長好請薛部長部長好部長最近的新聞說您是零負評啊留任的機會非常的高所以我也想問部長520之後我們還有機會一起去考察循環杯嗎你可以用個人的名義邀請我\n\n00:28.770 --> 00:55.315\n下禮拜我也有約了一些循環杯的廠商來聊一下他們目前執行的困難點在哪我也很希望可以跟部長有一些交流是來請陳文多指教部長如果有機會留下來的話我也想請問未來環境部您覺得前三個重要的事項您需要處理的是什麼陳文那個可能性不存在\n\n00:57.833 --> 01:16.791\n我剛剛已經跟媒體記者報告過了基本上我非常謝謝賴總統當選人讓我有機會繼續服務希望可以把您的經驗可以傳承下去一定會這個沒有問題那再來呢我不知道部長會不會開到第三次的審議會碳廢審議會\n\n01:19.721 --> 01:20.982\n跟委員報告目前還在聯繫調查當中\n\n01:35.641 --> 01:56.424\n因為我們從媒體看起來第二次開完會的結論我覺得只要關心碳費這個議題的人會覺得會議的結論很令人傻眼因為最後你們第二次會議是說初步獲得共識包括碳費討論要有科學依據\n\n01:57.705 --> 02:17.191\n要不要有科學依據這個應該是一般人的常識啦然後要更了解國外碳費這個制度運作還有制定的背後政經原因這跟第一次的會議結論幾乎重疊你第一次會議完就是說希望可以收集國內外的數據來做這個碳費的研擬\n\n02:21.226 --> 02:44.088\n我跟前委員報告,當初我們會立審議委員會大家就期待說他能夠更多元性所以我們的委員裡面有來自真的是非常的多元那這些委員有一些以前他是沒有接觸到碳廢這個議題以及他對整個我們包括產業結構包括環境面這些東西事實上他們真的不了解\n\n02:44.668 --> 03:12.614\n所以需要給他們一些時間原本這個目標是定第一季什麼執法都要全部出來結果看上次開會的結論還是前端的法制工作要完備目前重心會放在這些法制作業表示環境部似乎沒有把這些執法準備好讓審議委員來做審議是嗎不過我給陳委員報告執法現在除了費力這一塊其他的事實上都已經完成了\n\n03:13.354 --> 03:42.236\n但是他必須走過行政程序才能夠對外面預告所以並不是那個問題所以前端的法治工作還沒有完備只是說他還沒有定案沒有正式公告你就不能拿那個資料給企業去做自主減量計畫的計畫書撰寫所以現在是4月底5月初我們會有第三次的審議委員會這個全民都在期待中\n\n03:44.078 --> 04:06.472\n剛剛林月琴委員有問到說您是不是政策轉彎但是您覺得沒有可是如果原本這個6年前說禁用4種一次性塑膠產品有這麼重要你也覺得是一個政策的延續這次我們的報告有20幾頁喔圖文並茂非常精美為什麼這次的報告不提這件事情\n\n04:07.332 --> 04:33.937\n給陳委員報告這個是政策面、策略面跟執行面有執行面比較偏向技術面那技術面有時候跟我們當初的議題事實上是有一些落差所以可以做調整啦技術面對所以您覺得其實會有落差嘛2030年有一點困難達成這是您的真心話吧是啊因為民眾你要叫他到傳統市場去買東西不用塑膠袋裝\n\n04:35.177 --> 04:37.938\n您的報告裡面有寫個人這個你們現在已經限制了中型還有大型業者的零售業者開花票的\n\n04:58.343 --> 05:19.008\n對網購的產品這個要減速但是呢第一個重點是好不得使用pvcpvc其實也是對我們人體健康危害所以他不只是對地球危害對人體也有危害因此在這個大型的個人賣家為什麼都沒有在包裝限制的使用對象裡面呢\n\n05:21.179 --> 05:32.016\n大型的個人賣家CtoC因為你們這邊只有限制到中型跟大型的零售業者網路平台大型的賣家個人的\n\n05:41.185 --> 05:59.237\n現在有很多小的這個青年創業家他們都是個人賣家是很認同環境部的理念的所以你們如果可以提供相關的指引還有獎勵機制的話可以吸引這些認同你們環境部理念的個人賣家就可以跟上\n\n06:00.151 --> 06:16.603\n好嗎好謝謝陳文但是其實我剛講的這件事情之前呢你們的環保署回收機管會已經講過了對他之前的發言有說未來會針對C2C這種個人賣家對於買家類型訂定2.0版本的指引來要求他們包裝建議好這個2.0版本出來囉112年5月\n\n06:28.414 --> 06:33.392\n結果呢你適用的範圍跟對象還是一樣是零售業啊\n\n06:35.792 --> 06:40.496\n我提供部長一個建議大型的比較大的規模的個人賣家其實我們可以去您說的這些零售業的平台\n\n06:58.069 --> 07:21.917\n他們一定要交易資料就有了所以你們可以從這些平台裡面比較大規模的開始去做限制或者去做鼓勵推廣等等好我們再來看你的這個指引喔你的這個2.0版本的指引裡面有一個叫做自主管理計畫自主管理計畫內容包含民眾曾經陳情之品項好\n\n07:23.557 --> 07:44.650\n這個是一個不太符合人性的指引欸民眾曾經陳情就表示他曾經對他有做出一些客訴說你這個包裝可能太華麗了用了太多塑料了結果你請這些業者自主管理把他被客訴的品項告訴你們你覺得這個有可能嗎\n\n07:47.356 --> 08:03.573\n陳委員我在想說這一條當初列進來基本上就是我們希望既然是自主管理那你過往的紀錄說真的credit就很重要你已經犯過錯已經有這種紀錄那這種人我們基本上是\n\n08:04.053 --> 08:29.393\n所以他更不會講啊因為他的規定很重要他怎麼可能會把他自己被陳情的品項拿出來列入他的自主管理計畫應該不太可能吧很難講因為他認為搞不好我想要等於說去偷渡啦我覺得現在資訊很公開他想要希望很心很僥倖不想跟你的資訊對不起來就對了這個意思啦是\n\n08:31.034 --> 08:58.116\n接下來您剛制定的這個表格裡面有規定說包裝的重量不得超過產品的重量的整體的多少啦整體的這個比例好很多民團都已經講到說你限制這個是沒有意義的因為網購就是在COVID之後越來越多像女生她也許第一次去實體店她知道自己的尺碼她後面就全部都用網購\n\n08:59.717 --> 09:25.036\n所以這個重量40%、30%我跟你說就算是產品最輕最輕的洋芋片它的包裝都不會超過所以這個是非常的寬鬆因此如果持續這個網購的銷售是增加的最理想的方法我們還是應該要利用循環袋、循環箱才可以做源頭的管理因為你的包裝不可能減少那我們來看一下\n\n09:28.378 --> 09:51.786\n這個是108年的新聞稿說111年循環帶循環箱的比例要達到10%結果呢你們自己實行方法卻定到113年至少達到2%10%跟2%是不是這個落差修正幅度也太大你們在推動循環箱是遇到什麼困擾\n\n09:53.268 --> 09:55.809\n但是你把10%修正成2%一定有什麼原因吧?\n\n10:13.018 --> 10:39.626\n因為是法令規定所以還是有一個就是會做一些考量啦但是他們自願性因為還是有很多業者他自願會做會把這個循環袋的比例會增加很多部長我覺得你們可以往這個方向去演你啊比如說我們中南部以前我們會把一些酒瓶收一收嘛然後就會拿去做資源回收可以領回來一點錢所以如果你們循環袋循環箱可以這樣子去做回收有一些誘因應該會更好啦\n\n10:40.126 --> 10:40.507\n陳菁徽委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.847,"end":25.848,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員早我請薛部長好請薛部長部長好部長最近的新聞說您是零負評啊留任的機會非常的高所以我也想問部長520之後我們還有機會一起去考察循環杯嗎你可以用個人的名義邀請我"},{"start":28.77,"end":55.315,"text":"下禮拜我也有約了一些循環杯的廠商來聊一下他們目前執行的困難點在哪我也很希望可以跟部長有一些交流是來請陳文多指教部長如果有機會留下來的話我也想請問未來環境部您覺得前三個重要的事項您需要處理的是什麼陳文那個可能性不存在"},{"start":57.833,"end":76.791,"text":"我剛剛已經跟媒體記者報告過了基本上我非常謝謝賴總統當選人讓我有機會繼續服務希望可以把您的經驗可以傳承下去一定會 這個沒有問題那再來呢 我不知道部長會不會開到第三次的審議會 碳廢審議會"},{"start":79.721,"end":80.982,"text":"跟委員報告目前還在聯繫調查當中"},{"start":95.641,"end":116.424,"text":"因為我們從媒體看起來第二次開完會的結論我覺得只要關心碳費這個議題的人會覺得會議的結論很令人傻眼因為最後你們第二次會議是說初步獲得共識包括碳費討論要有科學依據"},{"start":117.705,"end":137.191,"text":"要不要有科學依據這個應該是一般人的常識啦然後要更了解國外碳費這個制度運作還有制定的背後政經原因這跟第一次的會議結論幾乎重疊你第一次會議完就是說希望可以收集國內外的數據來做這個碳費的研擬"},{"start":141.226,"end":164.088,"text":"我跟前委員報告,當初我們會立審議委員會大家就期待說他能夠更多元性所以我們的委員裡面有來自真的是非常的多元那這些委員有一些以前他是沒有接觸到碳廢這個議題以及他對整個我們包括產業結構包括環境面這些東西事實上他們真的不了解"},{"start":164.668,"end":192.614,"text":"所以需要給他們一些時間原本這個目標是定第一季什麼執法都要全部出來結果看上次開會的結論還是前端的法制工作要完備目前重心會放在這些法制作業表示環境部似乎沒有把這些執法準備好讓審議委員來做審議是嗎不過我給陳委員報告執法現在除了費力這一塊其他的事實上都已經完成了"},{"start":193.354,"end":222.236,"text":"但是他必須走過行政程序才能夠對外面預告所以並不是那個問題所以前端的法治工作還沒有完備只是說他還沒有定案沒有正式公告你就不能拿那個資料給企業去做自主減量計畫的計畫書撰寫所以現在是4月底5月初我們會有第三次的審議委員會這個全民都在期待中"},{"start":224.078,"end":246.472,"text":"剛剛林月琴委員有問到說您是不是政策轉彎但是您覺得沒有可是如果原本這個6年前說禁用4種一次性塑膠產品有這麼重要你也覺得是一個政策的延續這次我們的報告有20幾頁喔圖文並茂非常精美為什麼這次的報告不提這件事情"},{"start":247.332,"end":273.937,"text":"給陳委員報告這個是政策面、策略面跟執行面有執行面比較偏向技術面那技術面有時候跟我們當初的議題事實上是有一些落差所以可以做調整啦技術面對所以您覺得其實會有落差嘛2030年有一點困難達成這是您的真心話吧是啊因為民眾你要叫他到傳統市場去買東西不用塑膠袋裝"},{"start":275.177,"end":277.938,"text":"您的報告裡面有寫個人 這個你們現在已經限制了中型還有大型業者的零售業者開花票的"},{"start":298.343,"end":319.008,"text":"對網購的產品這個要減速但是呢第一個重點是好不得使用pvcpvc其實也是對我們人體健康危害所以他不只是對地球危害對人體也有危害因此在這個大型的個人賣家為什麼都沒有在包裝限制的使用對象裡面呢"},{"start":321.179,"end":332.016,"text":"大型的個人賣家C to C因為你們這邊只有限制到中型跟大型的零售業者網路平台大型的賣家個人的"},{"start":341.185,"end":359.237,"text":"現在有很多小的這個青年創業家他們都是個人賣家是很認同環境部的理念的所以你們如果可以提供相關的指引還有獎勵機制的話可以吸引這些認同你們環境部理念的個人賣家就可以跟上"},{"start":360.151,"end":376.603,"text":"好嗎好謝謝陳文但是其實我剛講的這件事情之前呢你們的環保署回收機管會已經講過了對他之前的發言有說未來會針對C2C這種個人賣家對於買家類型訂定2.0版本的指引來要求他們包裝建議好這個2.0版本出來囉112年5月"},{"start":388.414,"end":393.392,"text":"結果呢你適用的範圍跟對象還是一樣是零售業啊"},{"start":395.792,"end":400.496,"text":"我提供部長一個建議大型的比較大的規模的個人賣家其實我們可以去您說的這些零售業的平台"},{"start":418.069,"end":441.917,"text":"他們一定要交易資料就有了所以你們可以從這些平台裡面比較大規模的開始去做限制或者去做鼓勵推廣等等好我們再來看你的這個指引喔你的這個2.0版本的指引裡面有一個叫做自主管理計畫自主管理計畫內容包含民眾曾經陳情之品項好"},{"start":443.557,"end":464.65,"text":"這個是一個不太符合人性的指引欸民眾曾經陳情就表示他曾經對他有做出一些客訴說你這個包裝可能太華麗了用了太多塑料了結果你請這些業者自主管理把他被客訴的品項告訴你們你覺得這個有可能嗎"},{"start":467.356,"end":483.573,"text":"陳委員我在想說這一條當初列進來基本上就是我們希望既然是自主管理那你過往的紀錄說真的credit就很重要你已經犯過錯已經有這種紀錄那這種人我們基本上是"},{"start":484.053,"end":509.393,"text":"所以他更不會講啊因為他的規定很重要他怎麼可能會把他自己被陳情的品項拿出來列入他的自主管理計畫應該不太可能吧很難講因為他認為搞不好我想要等於說去偷渡啦我覺得現在資訊很公開他想要希望很心很僥倖不想跟你的資訊對不起來就對了這個意思啦是"},{"start":511.034,"end":538.116,"text":"接下來您剛制定的這個表格裡面有規定說包裝的重量不得超過產品的重量的整體的多少啦整體的這個比例好很多民團都已經講到說你限制這個是沒有意義的因為網購就是在COVID之後越來越多像女生她也許第一次去實體店她知道自己的尺碼她後面就全部都用網購"},{"start":539.717,"end":565.036,"text":"所以這個重量40%、30%我跟你說就算是產品最輕最輕的洋芋片它的包裝都不會超過所以這個是非常的寬鬆因此如果持續這個網購的銷售是增加的最理想的方法我們還是應該要利用循環袋、循環箱才可以做源頭的管理因為你的包裝不可能減少那我們來看一下"},{"start":568.378,"end":591.786,"text":"這個是108年的新聞稿說111年循環帶循環箱的比例要達到10%結果呢你們自己實行方法卻定到113年至少達到2%10%跟2%是不是這個落差修正幅度也太大你們在推動循環箱是遇到什麼困擾"},{"start":593.268,"end":595.809,"text":"但是你把10%修正成2%一定有什麼原因吧?"},{"start":613.018,"end":639.626,"text":"因為是法令規定所以還是有一個就是會做一些考量啦但是他們自願性因為還是有很多業者他自願會做會把這個循環袋的比例會增加很多部長我覺得你們可以往這個方向去演你啊比如說我們中南部以前我們會把一些酒瓶收一收嘛然後就會拿去做資源回收可以領回來一點錢所以如果你們循環袋循環箱可以這樣子去做回收有一些誘因應該會更好啦"},{"start":640.126,"end":640.507,"text":"陳菁徽委員"}]}}}}