{"id":151220,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151220","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162755beaabd8dfd1bcd0915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c94e845366a77bfd4645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:50:49 - 10:03:05","影片長度":"00:12:16","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":736,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:03:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T09:50:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":246,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時50分）謝謝主席，我們請潘部長。"],["主席：好，有請潘部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：召委好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長好！410教改大遊行，我們先來檢視一下。30年過去了，當時所揭示的四大主軸：「制定教育基本法」，達到了；然後「推動教育現代化」，目前正在進行；「落實小班小校」，我必須要說這真的是少子化的結果。我覺得最大的災難還是來自於最後一點，也就是今天我們的重點，到底廣設大學是不是走錯路？","本席在大學教了27年，前面10年都在師資培育，所以是一路跟著教改的路程過來，當時所揭示的最大部分，部長還記得嗎？一個很大的口號，希望能夠降低學生的學習壓力，讓他們能夠快樂學。還記不記得？根據本席的經驗，快樂學的結果就是安樂死，這完全是毋庸置疑的，學生的壓力有因此降低嗎？部長，有嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟召委報告，確實家長對孩子的期待都很高，只要學校有比較在排所謂的……"],["柯委員志恩：我知道家長對教育一向是華人非常重視的，但快樂學，學習沒有所謂的快樂，當時標示的快樂學，我告訴你，就是安樂死，怎麼樣的死法，我們來看一下。你看吧！大學造成文憑貶值，我想剛剛很多委員都提過了。因為教改30年，很多人就開始去問李遠哲院長，然後他認為碩博士滿街跑不是他的問題，廣設大學跟他無關。我現在只想請問部長，因為你即將要離開，你認為教改失敗的部分跟李院長完全都沒有一點相關嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：當時整個教改的會議其實是有相當多國內各界所共同組成的審議會……"],["柯委員志恩：是，非常多的學者專家，沒錯，部長，我知道是這樣沒有錯，但這不是我講的，你可以講的非常圓滑，畢竟你是一個非常寬厚的人，但這是李登輝前總統講的，他說：臺灣失業率高，就是因為教改失敗，而李遠哲該為教改負責。這是李登輝前總統講的。李院長認為這個跟他無關，但就像你剛剛提到的，事實會說話，2002年在他主持的全國教育發展會議中，他公開主張要廣設大學。然後在最重要的921教改諮議會成立時，李院長主持會議，非常多學者專家可能都呼應他的說法，因為他一言九鼎，他建議把高中職比例從3比7，提高到現在的9比1，甚至取消比例限制，而且要把專科改為科技大學，這些都完全寫在資料上，也就造成今天廣設大學最大的緣故。但是我必須要說，廣設大學造成M型化更加嚴重，部長不要告訴我說這樣可以讓更多學生考試壓力解除，可以讓大家的競爭力更高，到目前為止，沒有！所以我還是認為，雖然沒有辦法完全歸咎於李遠哲院長，但他責無旁貸，事實會說話。","接下來我們再來看看：人人上大學、一縣一大學。剛剛非常多人都提到了，從1994年的大學有23所，到2021年變成126所，而我們以前引以為傲的所謂技職，目前為止已經完全是直線降落，這些部長都很清楚吧！而且技職目前每個人都是拚升等，最重要的實作部分，老師已經完全不care，大家都去拚升等，你告訴我，這會增加學生的競爭力嗎？我們來看一下，這完全是非常的民粹，那時候的大學生有30萬，目前為止，大學生有81萬，2016年更到100萬。你看看這是我們現在的大學生，臺灣有這麼多大學生，幾乎可以算是全世界比例最高的。然後你看看我們現在的人口，1994年還有32萬，現在大概就是13萬，從32萬變成13萬，剛剛部長已經否定了，你說不會有60所倒閉，也不會有40所倒閉，你們目前預警跟專輔的學校……"],["潘部長文忠：應該說沒有這方面的推估啦！"],["柯委員志恩：沒有這方面的推估？所以事實上幾所大學目前也不知道，但未來五年絕對不會是40所，也不會是60所？部長，你們總會有這個推估吧！不會有40吧？還是連40都有可能？還是50或60？家長要有警惕啊！請問部長會是多少？"],["潘部長文忠：我剛才跟前面的委員也報告過，我說現在教育部反而是很緊密的在管控各校的財務、教學品質跟招生狀況。"],["柯委員志恩：但是有很多學校已經退場了，剛剛萬委員也特別提到，你剛才已經承諾他說它們只要一退場，你們就會給它最好的安置，對不對？部長，你剛剛有特別提到嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：學生的部分一定是這樣子。"],["柯委員志恩：到目前為止，你看去年有16所，目前要專案安置的學生大概一千多人，但是部長知道嗎？1,516個學生當中，有249個人是遭退學的，意思是在被安置的學生當中，有16.42%是退學的，一般大專院多少人被退學？7.42%，這邊卻有百分之十六點多，被安置的學生的比例反而這麼大，為什麼？有沒有想過它的原因？而且你們所安置的學校是弱轉弱，部長，我給你幾個證據來看一下：稻江管理學院在2020年你把它安置到首府跟大同技術學院，就這兩個學校，要嘛就是即將要停辦了；南榮科技大學，你把它安置到這幾個學院，包括環球、大同都已經退場了，你把一個弱勢的學校安置到一個更弱勢的學校，讓他們退學比例又更高。請問對於這一千五百多個學生，你有做到照顧的責任嗎？數據還是會說話，部長。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，當然學生在入學跟轉學這方面也有我們覺得比較合適的方式，應該是考慮教育的公平性，後續我想我們會注意，因為現在更多的學校……"],["柯委員志恩：你們是應該注意啊！像剛剛已經有提到大漢技術學校的學生大一、大二有80人，目前還在進行當中，問題是學生寫信到部長信箱，表達他們自己的焦慮，因為學校叫他們開會，程序照教育部的走，然後開會、簽字，問題是學校告訴他們，大三、大四可以繼續留下來，但是大一、大二，你叫他們怎麼辦？他們可以轉，問題是要轉到哪裡？如果你們把他安置轉到的地方又是弱轉弱，他們未來的前途要嘛就是被退學，要嘛根本就是不曉得到哪裡。而且你看到新的學校，有很多課程的銜接，包括一些證照的考核，他們都沒有辦法，你就讓這些學生完全沒有任何的依靠。他們寫信到部長信箱，請部長看一下，好不好？負責部長信箱的人，請你看一下，好不好？然後反映給學校都沒有下文，大漢技術學院的學生已經來跟我們反映了，部長，請你好好重視這個問題。而且說實在的，私校的老師是公保，勞保還有六個月的資遣慰問金，非自願的還可以去申請，但是公保的老師哪裡有？然後你們的強化介聘平臺，你說要給他們一些職場訓練，你們的平臺設在哪裡啊？部長，你知道這些私立學校老師的介聘平臺設在哪裡嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：這是委請金屬工業發展中心……"],["柯委員志恩：拜託！私校老師的介聘平臺你把它放在金屬工業發展中心，你有好好宣傳嗎？去哪裡找？教育部的介聘平臺跑到金屬中心！"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個宣導我們可能會持續，因為我所掌握到的確實也有相當多的老師有參加這方面的課程。"],["柯委員志恩：介聘多少位？"],["潘部長文忠：介聘確實成效不是那麼好。"],["柯委員志恩：當然，你放在什麼金屬中心，然後告訴我有幫助這些私校老師，更不要說……"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這有一些就是到產業界，為什麼會請……"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，但是你的宣傳……"],["潘部長文忠：這是經濟部所屬的單位。"],["柯委員志恩：你們的宣傳實在是太差了，所以介聘的效果一點都不好，好像有做這件事情就沒有好好想別的事情。而且說實在的，在私立學校的年資裡面，特別是中南部，老師服兵役的兩年年資，國立大學都可以採計，私立大學卻沒有，所以我覺得以公私立來說的話，真的是大差別，你要不要也給這些私立學校的老師一個交代啊？兩年差很多欸，特別是他們都要退場的，有沒有這些年資差很多。部長，你要不要在你下任之前，好好幫助他們一下？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這部分我們再研究一下。"],["柯委員志恩：你研究一下再好好處理。接下來我要說的是M型的部分，以現在來說的話，這是一個非常大、非常嚴重的問題，你看看我們現在說要讓學生快樂學，結果私校的就讀率九年增加了25%，簡直是瘋狂的爆發當中啊！你知道近十年來國中生少了25萬人，私立學校的就讀率卻多了25%，這代表什麼？公立學校竟然已經經營到……目前為止，特別是割喉案之後，所有家長都往私立學校送，教改30年卻反而讓M型化越來越嚴重，部長，你有沒有正視這個問題？"],["潘部長文忠：針對私校，尤其是國中的部分，其實各界也有很多的討論。"],["柯委員志恩：那你有沒有任何的方式？當然以目前的法令，你也沒有辦法做任何的限制，但重點在於你必須要去思考，你不能叫家長、你不能叫學生，包括這些……你看為什麼要選擇？臺灣國中生每七個人就有一個念私立學校，真的是匪夷所思！為什麼教改30年之後，你讓私立學校的人數超過美國、超過日本，你知道問題到底在哪裡？部長，問題在哪裡？所以我剛剛說快樂學、安樂死，可是這些學生把他送到私校去以後，更是辛苦啊！"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我認同你剛才提的，但是國民教育的階段，如果讓臺灣再回到當時義務教育沒有成立的那個時候，小六學生就是要補習，現在的私中……"],["柯委員志恩：我不要跟你講那麼遠……"],["潘部長文忠：委員，現在的私中看到的就是臺灣非常被扭曲的孩子成長過程。"],["柯委員志恩：這就是教育系統需要負起責任啊！因為被扭曲了啊！"],["潘部長文忠：因為私中用聯招模式擇優，而不去盡國民義務教育，所以大院當時要修私立學校法，可不可以讓孩子是受到合理義務教育的過程……"],["柯委員志恩：部長，你是歷期最久的，你應該有所作為啊！你真的以為每個家長都很希望把孩子送到私校嗎？如果公立經營得很好的話，我為什麼要讓孩子進到私校？這是一個非常大的問題，在你七年半的部長任內讓M型化越來越嚴重。我肯定你其他的作為及辛苦，但是M型化在教改30年當中，你不得不承認讓臺灣M型的社會越來越嚴重，讓整個競爭度沒有因此提高，然後讓孩子的壓力越來越大，這才是最大的問題啊！"],["潘部長文忠：我想我即將卸任，但是對於私校法國中階段這一種小聯考的方式，我一直抱持非常清楚的立場，我也希望大院的委員能夠共同支持修法，讓臺灣的教育回到義務教育真的就是義務教育，而不是把所有學業最優秀的孩子集中在一起，然後又號召這是辦學最好，我認為義務教育不應該是如此。"],["柯委員志恩：我也不認為應該是如此，所以你說……"],["潘部長文忠：修法一定要在大院來努力。"],["柯委員志恩：問題是你當了七年半了。"],["潘部長文忠：現在本來就有版本，上個會期……"],["柯委員志恩：是，然後呢？"],["潘部長文忠：只是大院委員們的意見分歧……"],["柯委員志恩：所以是以大院的意見為意見？"],["潘部長文忠：意見是分歧的，我應該跟委員報告，目前是……"],["柯委員志恩：那我們就會好好做下來，在你下任之後，我也承諾我們就把這一部法好好的修完，讓學生真的能夠學習，起碼是有效果，但我絕對不會講快樂學，學習都要付出代價、付出努力的，不要再用這個口號。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，孩子正常的學習，我覺得這是一個成長為正常人格非常重要的事情。"],["柯委員志恩：好，謝謝部長。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝召委、謝謝部長，接下來換我質詢。"],["主席（柯委員志恩）：請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"151220","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151220","tool":"pyannote","id":"151220-pyannote"},"job_id":"1dPMjh0oa1ygCQQL","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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671.014, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 671.014, \"end\": 671.034, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 671.034, \"end\": 671.054, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 671.054, \"end\": 671.174, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"此\", \"start\": 671.174, \"end\": 671.194, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 694.206, \"end\": 694.226, \"score\": 0.07}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 694.226, \"end\": 694.246, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 694.246, \"end\": 694.286, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 694.286, \"end\": 694.306, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 710.733, \"end\": 710.753, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,291 --> 00:00:29,086\n謝謝主席我們請潘部長有請潘部長謝謝張惠豪部長好我們410交給大優先我們先來檢視一下當年這個30年過去了我們所揭示的這個四大主軸制定教育基本法達到了然後呢推動教育現代化目前正在進行落實小班小校我必須要說那個真的是因為少子化的結果\n\n2\n00:00:29,346 --> 00:00:29,386\n安樂死\n\n3\n00:01:00,130 --> 00:01:14,649\n這完全是無庸置疑的學生的壓力有因此降低嗎?部長有嗎?跟趙委報告啦因為確實家長對孩子的期待都是很高啦只要學校有所謂比較在排\n\n4\n00:01:15,770 --> 00:01:37,990\n所以我的意思就是說我知道家長的教育一向就是華人非常重視的快樂學學習沒有所謂的快樂你當時標示的快樂學我告訴你就是安樂死怎麼樣的死法我們來看一下你看吧大學造成這個文憑我想很多委員都已經剛剛已經提出提過了廣設大學我必須要說雖然最近因為是教改30年很多人就開始去問到李遠哲院長那他認為\n\n5\n00:01:40,393 --> 00:01:45,882\n說不是滿街跑不是他的問題廣設大學跟他無關我現在只請問部長因為你即將要離開的你認為教改的失敗的部分跟李院長完全一點相關都沒有嗎\n\n6\n00:01:53,010 --> 00:01:54,752\n我跟召委報告因為當時教育整個那個教改的那個叫做什麼那個會議其實是相當多當時國內是非常多的學者專家沒錯但是部長實在沒有錯這不是我講的\n\n7\n00:02:12,352 --> 00:02:12,472\n李登輝前總統\n\n8\n00:02:33,403 --> 00:02:56,120\n公開主張要廣設大學然後呢在這個我們最重要的一個921的教改諮詢成立當中呢他主持會議非常多學者專家可能都呼應他的說法但是他一言九鼎那時候的高中比比率就是認為應該從3比7提高到現在的9比1而且甚至要取消比例限制而且要把專科改為科技大學這都是\n\n9\n00:02:58,461 --> 00:03:15,716\n這就造成我們今天廣設大學最大的緣故而且我必須要說廣設大學造成M型化更加嚴重所以部長你不要告訴我因為這樣可以讓更多學生考試壓力解除可以讓大家進行的更到目前為止沒有所以我還是認為雖然沒有辦法完全歸咎於李遠哲部長李遠哲院長但是呢他責無旁貸事實會說話\n\n10\n00:03:20,140 --> 00:03:27,626\n接下來我們就來看看每個人上大學一縣一大學每個人都來我們來看一下剛剛已經非常多人看到了你看從1994的大學23所到20202021年變成126所我們以前引以為傲的這個所謂的這個技職\n\n11\n00:03:37,034 --> 00:03:56,441\n你看目前為止已經完全直線的降落這些部長你都很清楚吧而且即使現在目前每個人都是拼生的那時候最實作的這個部分老師已經完全不care都去拼生的所以你這樣告訴我這會增加學生的競爭力嗎所以我們來看一下這是完全非常明確的方法明粹好不好你看那時候大學生30萬目前為止我們的大學生有81萬2016年更到100萬\n\n12\n00:04:02,623 --> 00:04:30,818\n那你看看這是我們現在的大學生我們台灣有這麼多大學生幾乎是全世界是幾乎可以算是比例是最高的然後你看看我們現在的人口1994年還有32萬現在大概就13萬從32萬變13萬那很多人剛剛部長已經否定了嘛不會有60所倒閉嘛也不會有40所倒閉嘛你們目前獄警跟專服的學校應該說沒有這方面的推估啦沒有這方面的推估所以世上幾所大學目前也不知道但絕對不會是40所也不會是60所嘛\n\n13\n00:04:32,319 --> 00:04:36,283\n未來5年部長你們退估總會有這個退估吧不會有40吧還是連40都有可能還是50還是60家長又有警惕啊\n\n14\n00:04:43,544 --> 00:04:43,864\n部長會多少學生的部分一定是\n\n15\n00:05:07,045 --> 00:05:21,070\n是那我們目前為止來說的話你看目前安置去年有16所目前來說有目前要專案的安置的學生到1000多人嘛但是部長你知道嗎1516學生當中有249個人是遭退學的意思是說你被安置的學生當中有16.42是退學的一般大專約校多少人被退學7.42你這邊有16點多被安置的學生反而比這麼大為什麼\n\n16\n00:05:36,136 --> 00:05:50,226\n這有沒有想過他的原因而且你們所安置的學校是弱轉弱部長我給你幾個證據來看一下往下面一看道江管理學院2020年你把他安置到首府跟大同技術學院就這兩個學校要嗎就是即將要停辦了南榮科技大學你把他安置到上面這幾個學院怎麼環球大同都已經退場了\n\n17\n00:05:57,851 --> 00:06:06,734\n你把一個弱勢的學校安置到一個更弱勢的學校讓他們退學比率又更高請問你對1500多個學生你有做到照顧的責任嗎數據還是會說法部長跟委員報告這個當然學生常在入學跟轉學這個也有一個我們覺得比較合適的應該是考慮教育的公平性所以在後續我想我們會記住因為現在更多的學校\n\n18\n00:06:23,459 --> 00:06:31,305\n您們是應該注意像大漢剛剛也有提到大漢技術學校的學生他們現在目前大一大二有80人目前還在進行當中問題是學生寫信到你們部長信箱裏面表達他們自己的這樣子的一個焦慮因為學校叫他們開會程序教育部的走開會簽字問題是\n\n19\n00:06:43,135 --> 00:06:56,470\n學校告訴他們大三大四你可以繼續留下來但是大一大二你知道他們怎麼辦他們可以轉那轉到哪裡去如果轉到你們把它安置轉到的地方又是一個弱轉弱他們的未來的前途要嘛就被退學要嘛根本就是不曉得到哪裡而且你看\n\n20\n00:06:58,692 --> 00:07:17,599\n在新的學校區裏面有很多的課程的銜接包括一些政教的考核他們都沒有辦法你就讓這些學生完全沒有任何的依靠他們寫信到部長不想信箱部長看一下好不好負責你部長冰箱來請你看一下好不好然後呢你反映給學校都沒有下文大漢技術學院\n\n21\n00:07:18,439 --> 00:07:42,702\n他們已經來跟我們反映了部長請你好好重視這個問題而且私校的學老師說實在的他們是公保你老保還有6個月的資遣慰問金還可以非自願的去申請但是呢公保的老師哪裡有然後呢你們的強化借聘的平台你說要給他們一些職場訓練你們的平台設在哪裡啊部長你知道這些私校學學校老師的這個所謂的借聘平台你們設在哪裡部長\n\n22\n00:07:43,843 --> 00:07:46,286\n委員這個宣導我們可能持續啦因為確實我掌握到的也有相當多的老師有參加這方面的課程借聘多少位\n\n23\n00:08:02,783 --> 00:08:12,345\n借聘的確實成效不是那麼好當然啊你放在什麼金屬中心然後告訴我幫助這些私校老師委員這個有一些就是到產業界為什麼會請我知道這是經濟部所屬的單位你們的宣傳實在是太差了所以借聘的效果一點都不好有做這件事情就沒有好好想別的事情而且我要說實在私立學校的年資裡面喔特別是中南部的老師的這個服兵的兩年年資國立大學都可以採集私立大學沒有\n\n24\n00:08:28,769 --> 00:08:55,709\n所以我覺得我們真的是公司力來說的話真的是大希望你要不要給這些私立老師也一個交代兩年差很多特別是他們都要退場的有沒有這些年次差很多部長你要不要在你下任之前好好幫助他們一下你這部分我們再研究一下你這要研究好好然後接下來我真的要說M型的部分拜託現在我們來說的話部長這是一個非常大的一個嚴重的一個問題你看看我們現在說要讓學生快樂學結果呢私校的就讀率9年\n\n25\n00:08:56,630 --> 00:09:21,969\n增加了25%簡直是瘋狂的爆發當中啊你知道近10年來國中生少了25萬人私立公主的就讀率卻多了25%這代表什麼我們公立學校竟然已經經營到目前為止每個家長特別是割喉案之後所有家長都往私立學校去做你反而是教改30年讓我們的M型化越來越嚴重了部長你有沒有正視這個問題\n\n26\n00:09:24,431 --> 00:09:49,808\n我想私校私中尤其是國中的這部分其實各界也有很多的討論那你有沒有什麼任何的方式當然你也沒有你像目前的法律也沒有辦法做任何的限制但重點就是你必須要去思考你不能叫家長你不能叫學生你包括這些你看為什麼要選擇台灣國中生每7個人就有一個念私立學校每7個人就有一個念私立學校這是匪夷所思的\n\n27\n00:09:50,228 --> 00:09:51,749\n但是國民教育的階段如果讓台灣再回到當時義務教育沒有成立的那個小六學生就是要補習\n\n28\n00:10:13,081 --> 00:10:22,230\n現在的師中看到的就是台灣一個非常被扭曲的孩子成長過程因為師中用連招模式擇優而不去進國民義務教育所以大院這邊當時要修私立學校法可不可以讓孩子是受到一個合理的\n\n29\n00:10:35,363 --> 00:10:53,048\n議務教育的過程部長你是最長你歷期最久的這個部分就是應該在你的部分裡面有所作為啊你真的以為說每個家長都很希望把孩子送到私校嗎如果公立經營得很好的話我為什麼要讓孩子進到私校這是一個非常大的問題這是你7年半的部長的任內當中讓M型化我肯定你其他的一個作為辛苦但是M型化在教改30年當中你不得不承認讓我們台灣的M型的社會越來越嚴重讓整個競爭\n\n30\n00:11:05,011 --> 00:11:11,194\n我希望我們大院的委員能夠共同支持修法讓台灣的教育是回到真的義務教育就是義務教育而不是把所有學業最優秀的孩子集中一起然後又號召我這是辦學最好我認為義務教育不應該是如此\n\n31\n00:11:34,206 --> 00:11:34,306\n我應該跟委員報告\n\n32\n00:11:50,733 --> 00:11:50,753\n謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5291\t29086\t謝謝主席 我們請潘部長有請潘部長 謝謝張惠豪部長好 我們410交給大優先我們先來檢視一下當年這個30年過去了我們所揭示的這個四大主軸制定教育基本法達到了然後呢推動教育現代化目前正在進行落實小班小校我必須要說那個真的是因為少子化的結果\n29346\t29386\t安樂死\n60130\t74649\t這完全是無庸置疑的學生的壓力有因此降低嗎?部長有嗎?跟趙委報告啦因為確實家長對孩子的期待都是很高啦只要學校有所謂比較在排\n75770\t97990\t所以我的意思就是說我知道家長的教育一向就是華人非常重視的快樂學學習沒有所謂的快樂你當時標示的快樂學我告訴你就是安樂死怎麼樣的死法我們來看一下你看吧大學造成這個文憑我想很多委員都已經剛剛已經提出提過了廣設大學我必須要說雖然最近因為是教改30年很多人就開始去問到李遠哲院長那他認為\n100393\t105882\t說不是滿街跑不是他的問題廣設大學跟他無關我現在只請問部長因為你即將要離開的你認為教改的失敗的部分跟李院長完全一點相關都沒有嗎\n113010\t114752\t我跟召委報告因為當時教育整個那個教改的那個叫做什麼那個會議其實是相當多當時國內是 非常多的學者專家沒錯 但是部長實在沒有錯 這不是我講的\n132352\t132472\t李登輝前總統\n153403\t176120\t公開主張要廣設大學然後呢在這個我們最重要的一個921的教改諮詢成立當中呢他主持會議非常多學者專家可能都呼應他的說法但是他一言九鼎那時候的高中比比率就是認為應該從3比7提高到現在的9比1而且甚至要取消比例限制而且要把專科改為科技大學這都是\n178461\t195716\t這就造成我們今天廣設大學最大的緣故而且我必須要說廣設大學造成M型化更加嚴重所以部長你不要告訴我因為這樣可以讓更多學生考試壓力解除可以讓大家進行的更到目前為止沒有所以我還是認為雖然沒有辦法完全歸咎於李遠哲部長李遠哲院長但是呢他責無旁貸事實會說話\n200140\t207626\t接下來我們就來看看每個人上大學一縣一大學每個人都來我們來看一下剛剛已經非常多人看到了你看從1994的大學23所到20202021年變成126所我們以前引以為傲的這個所謂的這個技職\n217034\t236441\t你看目前為止已經完全直線的降落這些部長你都很清楚吧而且即使現在目前每個人都是拼生的那時候最實作的這個部分老師已經完全不care都去拼生的所以你這樣告訴我這會增加學生的競爭力嗎所以我們來看一下這是完全非常明確的方法明粹好不好你看那時候大學生30萬目前為止我們的大學生有81萬2016年更到100萬\n242623\t270818\t那你看看這是我們現在的大學生我們台灣有這麼多大學生幾乎是全世界是幾乎可以算是比例是最高的然後你看看我們現在的人口1994年還有32萬現在大概就13萬從32萬變13萬那很多人剛剛部長已經否定了嘛不會有60所倒閉嘛也不會有40所倒閉嘛你們目前獄警跟專服的學校應該說沒有這方面的推估啦沒有這方面的推估所以世上幾所大學目前也不知道但絕對不會是40所也不會是60所嘛\n272319\t276283\t未來5年 部長 你們退估總會有這個退估吧 不會有40吧還是連40都有可能還是50 還是60 家長又有警惕啊\n283544\t283864\t部長會多少學生的部分一定是\n307045\t321070\t是 那我們目前為止來說的話你看目前安置去年有16所目前來說有目前要專案的安置的學生到1000多人嘛但是部長你知道嗎1516學生當中有249個人是遭退學的意思是說你被安置的學生當中有16.42是退學的一般大專約校多少人被退學7.42你這邊有16點多被安置的學生反而比這麼大為什麼\n336136\t350226\t這有沒有想過他的原因而且你們所安置的學校是弱轉弱部長我給你幾個證據來看一下往下面一看道江管理學院2020年你把他安置到首府跟大同技術學院就這兩個學校要嗎就是即將要停辦了南榮科技大學你把他安置到上面這幾個學院怎麼環球大同都已經退場了\n357851\t366734\t你把一個弱勢的學校安置到一個更弱勢的學校讓他們退學比率又更高請問你對1500多個學生你有做到照顧的責任嗎數據還是會說法 部長跟委員報告這個當然學生常在入學跟轉學這個也有一個我們覺得比較合適的應該是考慮教育的公平性所以在後續我想我們會記住因為現在更多的學校\n383459\t391305\t您們是應該注意像大漢剛剛也有提到大漢技術學校的學生他們現在目前大一大二有80人目前還在進行當中問題是學生寫信到你們部長信箱裏面表達他們自己的這樣子的一個焦慮因為學校叫他們開會程序教育部的走開會簽字問題是\n403135\t416470\t學校告訴他們大三大四你可以繼續留下來但是大一大二你知道他們怎麼辦他們可以轉那轉到哪裡去如果轉到你們把它安置轉到的地方又是一個弱轉弱他們的未來的前途要嘛就被退學要嘛根本就是不曉得到哪裡而且你看\n418692\t437599\t在新的學校區裏面有很多的課程的銜接包括一些政教的考核他們都沒有辦法你就讓這些學生完全沒有任何的依靠他們寫信到部長不想信箱部長看一下好不好負責你部長冰箱來請你看一下好不好然後呢你反映給學校都沒有下文大漢技術學院\n438439\t462702\t他們已經來跟我們反映了部長請你好好重視這個問題而且私校的學老師說實在的他們是公保你老保還有6個月的資遣慰問金還可以非自願的去申請但是呢公保的老師哪裡有然後呢你們的強化借聘的平台你說要給他們一些職場訓練你們的平台設在哪裡啊部長你知道這些私校學學校老師的這個所謂的借聘平台你們設在哪裡部長\n463843\t466286\t委員這個宣導我們可能持續啦因為確實我掌握到的也有相當多的老師有參加這方面的課程借聘多少位\n482783\t492345\t借聘的確實成效不是那麼好當然啊你放在什麼金屬中心然後告訴我幫助這些私校老師委員這個有一些就是到產業界為什麼會請我知道這是經濟部所屬的單位你們的宣傳實在是太差了所以借聘的效果一點都不好有做這件事情就沒有好好想別的事情而且我要說實在私立學校的年資裡面喔特別是中南部的老師的這個服兵的兩年年資國立大學都可以採集私立大學沒有\n508769\t535709\t所以我覺得我們真的是公司力來說的話真的是大希望你要不要給這些私立老師也一個交代兩年差很多特別是他們都要退場的有沒有這些年次差很多部長你要不要在你下任之前好好幫助他們一下你這部分我們再研究一下你這要研究好好然後接下來我真的要說M型的部分拜託現在我們來說的話部長這是一個非常大的一個嚴重的一個問題你看看我們現在說要讓學生快樂學結果呢私校的就讀率9年\n536630\t561969\t增加了25%簡直是瘋狂的爆發當中啊你知道近10年來國中生少了25萬人私立公主的就讀率卻多了25%這代表什麼我們公立學校竟然已經經營到目前為止每個家長特別是割喉案之後所有家長都往私立學校去做你反而是教改30年讓我們的M型化越來越嚴重了部長你有沒有正視這個問題\n564431\t589808\t我想私校私中尤其是國中的這部分其實各界也有很多的討論那你有沒有什麼任何的方式當然你也沒有你像目前的法律也沒有辦法做任何的限制但重點就是你必須要去思考你不能叫家長你不能叫學生你包括這些你看為什麼要選擇台灣國中生每7個人就有一個念私立學校每7個人就有一個念私立學校這是匪夷所思的\n590228\t591749\t但是國民教育的階段如果讓台灣再回到當時義務教育沒有成立的那個小六學生就是要補習\n613081\t622230\t現在的師中看到的就是台灣一個非常被扭曲的孩子成長過程因為師中用連招模式擇優而不去進國民義務教育所以大院這邊當時要修私立學校法可不可以讓孩子是受到一個合理的\n635363\t653048\t議務教育的過程部長你是最長你歷期最久的這個部分就是應該在你的部分裡面有所作為啊你真的以為說每個家長都很希望把孩子送到私校嗎如果公立經營得很好的話我為什麼要讓孩子進到私校這是一個非常大的問題這是你7年半的部長的任內當中讓M型化我肯定你其他的一個作為辛苦但是M型化在教改30年當中你不得不承認讓我們台灣的M型的社會越來越嚴重讓整個競爭\n665011\t671194\t我希望我們大院的委員能夠共同支持修法讓台灣的教育是回到真的義務教育就是義務教育而不是把所有學業最優秀的孩子集中一起然後又號召我這是辦學最好我認為義務教育不應該是如此\n694206\t694306\t我應該跟委員報告\n710733\t710753\t謝謝部長\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們請潘部長有請潘部長 謝謝張惠豪部長好 我們410交給大優先我們先來檢視一下當年這個30年過去了我們所揭示的這個四大主軸制定教育基本法達到了然後呢推動教育現代化目前正在進行落實小班小校我必須要說那個真的是因為少子化的結果\n安樂死\n這完全是無庸置疑的學生的壓力有因此降低嗎?部長有嗎?跟趙委報告啦因為確實家長對孩子的期待都是很高啦只要學校有所謂比較在排\n所以我的意思就是說我知道家長的教育一向就是華人非常重視的快樂學學習沒有所謂的快樂你當時標示的快樂學我告訴你就是安樂死怎麼樣的死法我們來看一下你看吧大學造成這個文憑我想很多委員都已經剛剛已經提出提過了廣設大學我必須要說雖然最近因為是教改30年很多人就開始去問到李遠哲院長那他認為\n說不是滿街跑不是他的問題廣設大學跟他無關我現在只請問部長因為你即將要離開的你認為教改的失敗的部分跟李院長完全一點相關都沒有嗎\n我跟召委報告因為當時教育整個那個教改的那個叫做什麼那個會議其實是相當多當時國內是 非常多的學者專家沒錯 但是部長實在沒有錯 這不是我講的\n李登輝前總統\n公開主張要廣設大學然後呢在這個我們最重要的一個921的教改諮詢成立當中呢他主持會議非常多學者專家可能都呼應他的說法但是他一言九鼎那時候的高中比比率就是認為應該從3比7提高到現在的9比1而且甚至要取消比例限制而且要把專科改為科技大學這都是\n這就造成我們今天廣設大學最大的緣故而且我必須要說廣設大學造成M型化更加嚴重所以部長你不要告訴我因為這樣可以讓更多學生考試壓力解除可以讓大家進行的更到目前為止沒有所以我還是認為雖然沒有辦法完全歸咎於李遠哲部長李遠哲院長但是呢他責無旁貸事實會說話\n接下來我們就來看看每個人上大學一縣一大學每個人都來我們來看一下剛剛已經非常多人看到了你看從1994的大學23所到20202021年變成126所我們以前引以為傲的這個所謂的這個技職\n你看目前為止已經完全直線的降落這些部長你都很清楚吧而且即使現在目前每個人都是拼生的那時候最實作的這個部分老師已經完全不care都去拼生的所以你這樣告訴我這會增加學生的競爭力嗎所以我們來看一下這是完全非常明確的方法明粹好不好你看那時候大學生30萬目前為止我們的大學生有81萬2016年更到100萬\n那你看看這是我們現在的大學生我們台灣有這麼多大學生幾乎是全世界是幾乎可以算是比例是最高的然後你看看我們現在的人口1994年還有32萬現在大概就13萬從32萬變13萬那很多人剛剛部長已經否定了嘛不會有60所倒閉嘛也不會有40所倒閉嘛你們目前獄警跟專服的學校應該說沒有這方面的推估啦沒有這方面的推估所以世上幾所大學目前也不知道但絕對不會是40所也不會是60所嘛\n未來5年 部長 你們退估總會有這個退估吧 不會有40吧還是連40都有可能還是50 還是60 家長又有警惕啊\n部長會多少學生的部分一定是\n是 那我們目前為止來說的話你看目前安置去年有16所目前來說有目前要專案的安置的學生到1000多人嘛但是部長你知道嗎1516學生當中有249個人是遭退學的意思是說你被安置的學生當中有16.42是退學的一般大專約校多少人被退學7.42你這邊有16點多被安置的學生反而比這麼大為什麼\n這有沒有想過他的原因而且你們所安置的學校是弱轉弱部長我給你幾個證據來看一下往下面一看道江管理學院2020年你把他安置到首府跟大同技術學院就這兩個學校要嗎就是即將要停辦了南榮科技大學你把他安置到上面這幾個學院怎麼環球大同都已經退場了\n你把一個弱勢的學校安置到一個更弱勢的學校讓他們退學比率又更高請問你對1500多個學生你有做到照顧的責任嗎數據還是會說法 部長跟委員報告這個當然學生常在入學跟轉學這個也有一個我們覺得比較合適的應該是考慮教育的公平性所以在後續我想我們會記住因為現在更多的學校\n您們是應該注意像大漢剛剛也有提到大漢技術學校的學生他們現在目前大一大二有80人目前還在進行當中問題是學生寫信到你們部長信箱裏面表達他們自己的這樣子的一個焦慮因為學校叫他們開會程序教育部的走開會簽字問題是\n學校告訴他們大三大四你可以繼續留下來但是大一大二你知道他們怎麼辦他們可以轉那轉到哪裡去如果轉到你們把它安置轉到的地方又是一個弱轉弱他們的未來的前途要嘛就被退學要嘛根本就是不曉得到哪裡而且你看\n在新的學校區裏面有很多的課程的銜接包括一些政教的考核他們都沒有辦法你就讓這些學生完全沒有任何的依靠他們寫信到部長不想信箱部長看一下好不好負責你部長冰箱來請你看一下好不好然後呢你反映給學校都沒有下文大漢技術學院\n他們已經來跟我們反映了部長請你好好重視這個問題而且私校的學老師說實在的他們是公保你老保還有6個月的資遣慰問金還可以非自願的去申請但是呢公保的老師哪裡有然後呢你們的強化借聘的平台你說要給他們一些職場訓練你們的平台設在哪裡啊部長你知道這些私校學學校老師的這個所謂的借聘平台你們設在哪裡部長\n委員這個宣導我們可能持續啦因為確實我掌握到的也有相當多的老師有參加這方面的課程借聘多少位\n借聘的確實成效不是那麼好當然啊你放在什麼金屬中心然後告訴我幫助這些私校老師委員這個有一些就是到產業界為什麼會請我知道這是經濟部所屬的單位你們的宣傳實在是太差了所以借聘的效果一點都不好有做這件事情就沒有好好想別的事情而且我要說實在私立學校的年資裡面喔特別是中南部的老師的這個服兵的兩年年資國立大學都可以採集私立大學沒有\n所以我覺得我們真的是公司力來說的話真的是大希望你要不要給這些私立老師也一個交代兩年差很多特別是他們都要退場的有沒有這些年次差很多部長你要不要在你下任之前好好幫助他們一下你這部分我們再研究一下你這要研究好好然後接下來我真的要說M型的部分拜託現在我們來說的話部長這是一個非常大的一個嚴重的一個問題你看看我們現在說要讓學生快樂學結果呢私校的就讀率9年\n增加了25%簡直是瘋狂的爆發當中啊你知道近10年來國中生少了25萬人私立公主的就讀率卻多了25%這代表什麼我們公立學校竟然已經經營到目前為止每個家長特別是割喉案之後所有家長都往私立學校去做你反而是教改30年讓我們的M型化越來越嚴重了部長你有沒有正視這個問題\n我想私校私中尤其是國中的這部分其實各界也有很多的討論那你有沒有什麼任何的方式當然你也沒有你像目前的法律也沒有辦法做任何的限制但重點就是你必須要去思考你不能叫家長你不能叫學生你包括這些你看為什麼要選擇台灣國中生每7個人就有一個念私立學校每7個人就有一個念私立學校這是匪夷所思的\n但是國民教育的階段如果讓台灣再回到當時義務教育沒有成立的那個小六學生就是要補習\n現在的師中看到的就是台灣一個非常被扭曲的孩子成長過程因為師中用連招模式擇優而不去進國民義務教育所以大院這邊當時要修私立學校法可不可以讓孩子是受到一個合理的\n議務教育的過程部長你是最長你歷期最久的這個部分就是應該在你的部分裡面有所作為啊你真的以為說每個家長都很希望把孩子送到私校嗎如果公立經營得很好的話我為什麼要讓孩子進到私校這是一個非常大的問題這是你7年半的部長的任內當中讓M型化我肯定你其他的一個作為辛苦但是M型化在教改30年當中你不得不承認讓我們台灣的M型的社會越來越嚴重讓整個競爭\n我希望我們大院的委員能夠共同支持修法讓台灣的教育是回到真的義務教育就是義務教育而不是把所有學業最優秀的孩子集中一起然後又號召我這是辦學最好我認為義務教育不應該是如此\n我應該跟委員報告\n謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.291 --> 00:29.086\n謝謝主席我們請潘部長有請潘部長謝謝張惠豪部長好我們410交給大優先我們先來檢視一下當年這個30年過去了我們所揭示的這個四大主軸制定教育基本法達到了然後呢推動教育現代化目前正在進行落實小班小校我必須要說那個真的是因為少子化的結果\n\n00:29.346 --> 00:29.386\n安樂死\n\n01:00.130 --> 01:14.649\n這完全是無庸置疑的學生的壓力有因此降低嗎?部長有嗎?跟趙委報告啦因為確實家長對孩子的期待都是很高啦只要學校有所謂比較在排\n\n01:15.770 --> 01:37.990\n所以我的意思就是說我知道家長的教育一向就是華人非常重視的快樂學學習沒有所謂的快樂你當時標示的快樂學我告訴你就是安樂死怎麼樣的死法我們來看一下你看吧大學造成這個文憑我想很多委員都已經剛剛已經提出提過了廣設大學我必須要說雖然最近因為是教改30年很多人就開始去問到李遠哲院長那他認為\n\n01:40.393 --> 01:45.882\n說不是滿街跑不是他的問題廣設大學跟他無關我現在只請問部長因為你即將要離開的你認為教改的失敗的部分跟李院長完全一點相關都沒有嗎\n\n01:53.010 --> 01:54.752\n我跟召委報告因為當時教育整個那個教改的那個叫做什麼那個會議其實是相當多當時國內是非常多的學者專家沒錯但是部長實在沒有錯這不是我講的\n\n02:12.352 --> 02:12.472\n李登輝前總統\n\n02:33.403 --> 02:56.120\n公開主張要廣設大學然後呢在這個我們最重要的一個921的教改諮詢成立當中呢他主持會議非常多學者專家可能都呼應他的說法但是他一言九鼎那時候的高中比比率就是認為應該從3比7提高到現在的9比1而且甚至要取消比例限制而且要把專科改為科技大學這都是\n\n02:58.461 --> 03:15.716\n這就造成我們今天廣設大學最大的緣故而且我必須要說廣設大學造成M型化更加嚴重所以部長你不要告訴我因為這樣可以讓更多學生考試壓力解除可以讓大家進行的更到目前為止沒有所以我還是認為雖然沒有辦法完全歸咎於李遠哲部長李遠哲院長但是呢他責無旁貸事實會說話\n\n03:20.140 --> 03:27.626\n接下來我們就來看看每個人上大學一縣一大學每個人都來我們來看一下剛剛已經非常多人看到了你看從1994的大學23所到20202021年變成126所我們以前引以為傲的這個所謂的這個技職\n\n03:37.034 --> 03:56.441\n你看目前為止已經完全直線的降落這些部長你都很清楚吧而且即使現在目前每個人都是拼生的那時候最實作的這個部分老師已經完全不care都去拼生的所以你這樣告訴我這會增加學生的競爭力嗎所以我們來看一下這是完全非常明確的方法明粹好不好你看那時候大學生30萬目前為止我們的大學生有81萬2016年更到100萬\n\n04:02.623 --> 04:30.818\n那你看看這是我們現在的大學生我們台灣有這麼多大學生幾乎是全世界是幾乎可以算是比例是最高的然後你看看我們現在的人口1994年還有32萬現在大概就13萬從32萬變13萬那很多人剛剛部長已經否定了嘛不會有60所倒閉嘛也不會有40所倒閉嘛你們目前獄警跟專服的學校應該說沒有這方面的推估啦沒有這方面的推估所以世上幾所大學目前也不知道但絕對不會是40所也不會是60所嘛\n\n04:32.319 --> 04:36.283\n未來5年部長你們退估總會有這個退估吧不會有40吧還是連40都有可能還是50還是60家長又有警惕啊\n\n04:43.544 --> 04:43.864\n部長會多少學生的部分一定是\n\n05:07.045 --> 05:21.070\n是那我們目前為止來說的話你看目前安置去年有16所目前來說有目前要專案的安置的學生到1000多人嘛但是部長你知道嗎1516學生當中有249個人是遭退學的意思是說你被安置的學生當中有16.42是退學的一般大專約校多少人被退學7.42你這邊有16點多被安置的學生反而比這麼大為什麼\n\n05:36.136 --> 05:50.226\n這有沒有想過他的原因而且你們所安置的學校是弱轉弱部長我給你幾個證據來看一下往下面一看道江管理學院2020年你把他安置到首府跟大同技術學院就這兩個學校要嗎就是即將要停辦了南榮科技大學你把他安置到上面這幾個學院怎麼環球大同都已經退場了\n\n05:57.851 --> 06:06.734\n你把一個弱勢的學校安置到一個更弱勢的學校讓他們退學比率又更高請問你對1500多個學生你有做到照顧的責任嗎數據還是會說法部長跟委員報告這個當然學生常在入學跟轉學這個也有一個我們覺得比較合適的應該是考慮教育的公平性所以在後續我想我們會記住因為現在更多的學校\n\n06:23.459 --> 06:31.305\n您們是應該注意像大漢剛剛也有提到大漢技術學校的學生他們現在目前大一大二有80人目前還在進行當中問題是學生寫信到你們部長信箱裏面表達他們自己的這樣子的一個焦慮因為學校叫他們開會程序教育部的走開會簽字問題是\n\n06:43.135 --> 06:56.470\n學校告訴他們大三大四你可以繼續留下來但是大一大二你知道他們怎麼辦他們可以轉那轉到哪裡去如果轉到你們把它安置轉到的地方又是一個弱轉弱他們的未來的前途要嘛就被退學要嘛根本就是不曉得到哪裡而且你看\n\n06:58.692 --> 07:17.599\n在新的學校區裏面有很多的課程的銜接包括一些政教的考核他們都沒有辦法你就讓這些學生完全沒有任何的依靠他們寫信到部長不想信箱部長看一下好不好負責你部長冰箱來請你看一下好不好然後呢你反映給學校都沒有下文大漢技術學院\n\n07:18.439 --> 07:42.702\n他們已經來跟我們反映了部長請你好好重視這個問題而且私校的學老師說實在的他們是公保你老保還有6個月的資遣慰問金還可以非自願的去申請但是呢公保的老師哪裡有然後呢你們的強化借聘的平台你說要給他們一些職場訓練你們的平台設在哪裡啊部長你知道這些私校學學校老師的這個所謂的借聘平台你們設在哪裡部長\n\n07:43.843 --> 07:46.286\n委員這個宣導我們可能持續啦因為確實我掌握到的也有相當多的老師有參加這方面的課程借聘多少位\n\n08:02.783 --> 08:12.345\n借聘的確實成效不是那麼好當然啊你放在什麼金屬中心然後告訴我幫助這些私校老師委員這個有一些就是到產業界為什麼會請我知道這是經濟部所屬的單位你們的宣傳實在是太差了所以借聘的效果一點都不好有做這件事情就沒有好好想別的事情而且我要說實在私立學校的年資裡面喔特別是中南部的老師的這個服兵的兩年年資國立大學都可以採集私立大學沒有\n\n08:28.769 --> 08:55.709\n所以我覺得我們真的是公司力來說的話真的是大希望你要不要給這些私立老師也一個交代兩年差很多特別是他們都要退場的有沒有這些年次差很多部長你要不要在你下任之前好好幫助他們一下你這部分我們再研究一下你這要研究好好然後接下來我真的要說M型的部分拜託現在我們來說的話部長這是一個非常大的一個嚴重的一個問題你看看我們現在說要讓學生快樂學結果呢私校的就讀率9年\n\n08:56.630 --> 09:21.969\n增加了25%簡直是瘋狂的爆發當中啊你知道近10年來國中生少了25萬人私立公主的就讀率卻多了25%這代表什麼我們公立學校竟然已經經營到目前為止每個家長特別是割喉案之後所有家長都往私立學校去做你反而是教改30年讓我們的M型化越來越嚴重了部長你有沒有正視這個問題\n\n09:24.431 --> 09:49.808\n我想私校私中尤其是國中的這部分其實各界也有很多的討論那你有沒有什麼任何的方式當然你也沒有你像目前的法律也沒有辦法做任何的限制但重點就是你必須要去思考你不能叫家長你不能叫學生你包括這些你看為什麼要選擇台灣國中生每7個人就有一個念私立學校每7個人就有一個念私立學校這是匪夷所思的\n\n09:50.228 --> 09:51.749\n但是國民教育的階段如果讓台灣再回到當時義務教育沒有成立的那個小六學生就是要補習\n\n10:13.081 --> 10:22.230\n現在的師中看到的就是台灣一個非常被扭曲的孩子成長過程因為師中用連招模式擇優而不去進國民義務教育所以大院這邊當時要修私立學校法可不可以讓孩子是受到一個合理的\n\n10:35.363 --> 10:53.048\n議務教育的過程部長你是最長你歷期最久的這個部分就是應該在你的部分裡面有所作為啊你真的以為說每個家長都很希望把孩子送到私校嗎如果公立經營得很好的話我為什麼要讓孩子進到私校這是一個非常大的問題這是你7年半的部長的任內當中讓M型化我肯定你其他的一個作為辛苦但是M型化在教改30年當中你不得不承認讓我們台灣的M型的社會越來越嚴重讓整個競爭\n\n11:05.011 --> 11:11.194\n我希望我們大院的委員能夠共同支持修法讓台灣的教育是回到真的義務教育就是義務教育而不是把所有學業最優秀的孩子集中一起然後又號召我這是辦學最好我認為義務教育不應該是如此\n\n11:34.206 --> 11:34.306\n我應該跟委員報告\n\n11:50.733 --> 11:50.753\n謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.291,"end":29.086,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請潘部長有請潘部長 謝謝張惠豪部長好 我們410交給大優先我們先來檢視一下當年這個30年過去了我們所揭示的這個四大主軸制定教育基本法達到了然後呢推動教育現代化目前正在進行落實小班小校我必須要說那個真的是因為少子化的結果"},{"start":29.346,"end":29.386,"text":"安樂死"},{"start":60.13,"end":74.649,"text":"這完全是無庸置疑的學生的壓力有因此降低嗎?部長有嗎?跟趙委報告啦因為確實家長對孩子的期待都是很高啦只要學校有所謂比較在排"},{"start":75.77,"end":97.99,"text":"所以我的意思就是說我知道家長的教育一向就是華人非常重視的快樂學學習沒有所謂的快樂你當時標示的快樂學我告訴你就是安樂死怎麼樣的死法我們來看一下你看吧大學造成這個文憑我想很多委員都已經剛剛已經提出提過了廣設大學我必須要說雖然最近因為是教改30年很多人就開始去問到李遠哲院長那他認為"},{"start":100.393,"end":105.882,"text":"說不是滿街跑不是他的問題廣設大學跟他無關我現在只請問部長因為你即將要離開的你認為教改的失敗的部分跟李院長完全一點相關都沒有嗎"},{"start":113.01,"end":114.752,"text":"我跟召委報告因為當時教育整個那個教改的那個叫做什麼那個會議其實是相當多當時國內是 非常多的學者專家沒錯 但是部長實在沒有錯 這不是我講的"},{"start":132.352,"end":132.472,"text":"李登輝前總統"},{"start":153.403,"end":176.12,"text":"公開主張要廣設大學然後呢在這個我們最重要的一個921的教改諮詢成立當中呢他主持會議非常多學者專家可能都呼應他的說法但是他一言九鼎那時候的高中比比率就是認為應該從3比7提高到現在的9比1而且甚至要取消比例限制而且要把專科改為科技大學這都是"},{"start":178.461,"end":195.716,"text":"這就造成我們今天廣設大學最大的緣故而且我必須要說廣設大學造成M型化更加嚴重所以部長你不要告訴我因為這樣可以讓更多學生考試壓力解除可以讓大家進行的更到目前為止沒有所以我還是認為雖然沒有辦法完全歸咎於李遠哲部長李遠哲院長但是呢他責無旁貸事實會說話"},{"start":200.14,"end":207.626,"text":"接下來我們就來看看每個人上大學一縣一大學每個人都來我們來看一下剛剛已經非常多人看到了你看從1994的大學23所到20202021年變成126所我們以前引以為傲的這個所謂的這個技職"},{"start":217.034,"end":236.441,"text":"你看目前為止已經完全直線的降落這些部長你都很清楚吧而且即使現在目前每個人都是拼生的那時候最實作的這個部分老師已經完全不care都去拼生的所以你這樣告訴我這會增加學生的競爭力嗎所以我們來看一下這是完全非常明確的方法明粹好不好你看那時候大學生30萬目前為止我們的大學生有81萬2016年更到100萬"},{"start":242.623,"end":270.818,"text":"那你看看這是我們現在的大學生我們台灣有這麼多大學生幾乎是全世界是幾乎可以算是比例是最高的然後你看看我們現在的人口1994年還有32萬現在大概就13萬從32萬變13萬那很多人剛剛部長已經否定了嘛不會有60所倒閉嘛也不會有40所倒閉嘛你們目前獄警跟專服的學校應該說沒有這方面的推估啦沒有這方面的推估所以世上幾所大學目前也不知道但絕對不會是40所也不會是60所嘛"},{"start":272.319,"end":276.283,"text":"未來5年 部長 你們退估總會有這個退估吧 不會有40吧還是連40都有可能還是50 還是60 家長又有警惕啊"},{"start":283.544,"end":283.864,"text":"部長會多少學生的部分一定是"},{"start":307.045,"end":321.07,"text":"是 那我們目前為止來說的話你看目前安置去年有16所目前來說有目前要專案的安置的學生到1000多人嘛但是部長你知道嗎1516學生當中有249個人是遭退學的意思是說你被安置的學生當中有16.42是退學的一般大專約校多少人被退學7.42你這邊有16點多被安置的學生反而比這麼大為什麼"},{"start":336.136,"end":350.226,"text":"這有沒有想過他的原因而且你們所安置的學校是弱轉弱部長我給你幾個證據來看一下往下面一看道江管理學院2020年你把他安置到首府跟大同技術學院就這兩個學校要嗎就是即將要停辦了南榮科技大學你把他安置到上面這幾個學院怎麼環球大同都已經退場了"},{"start":357.851,"end":366.734,"text":"你把一個弱勢的學校安置到一個更弱勢的學校讓他們退學比率又更高請問你對1500多個學生你有做到照顧的責任嗎數據還是會說法 部長跟委員報告這個當然學生常在入學跟轉學這個也有一個我們覺得比較合適的應該是考慮教育的公平性所以在後續我想我們會記住因為現在更多的學校"},{"start":383.459,"end":391.305,"text":"您們是應該注意像大漢剛剛也有提到大漢技術學校的學生他們現在目前大一大二有80人目前還在進行當中問題是學生寫信到你們部長信箱裏面表達他們自己的這樣子的一個焦慮因為學校叫他們開會程序教育部的走開會簽字問題是"},{"start":403.135,"end":416.47,"text":"學校告訴他們大三大四你可以繼續留下來但是大一大二你知道他們怎麼辦他們可以轉那轉到哪裡去如果轉到你們把它安置轉到的地方又是一個弱轉弱他們的未來的前途要嘛就被退學要嘛根本就是不曉得到哪裡而且你看"},{"start":418.692,"end":437.599,"text":"在新的學校區裏面有很多的課程的銜接包括一些政教的考核他們都沒有辦法你就讓這些學生完全沒有任何的依靠他們寫信到部長不想信箱部長看一下好不好負責你部長冰箱來請你看一下好不好然後呢你反映給學校都沒有下文大漢技術學院"},{"start":438.439,"end":462.702,"text":"他們已經來跟我們反映了部長請你好好重視這個問題而且私校的學老師說實在的他們是公保你老保還有6個月的資遣慰問金還可以非自願的去申請但是呢公保的老師哪裡有然後呢你們的強化借聘的平台你說要給他們一些職場訓練你們的平台設在哪裡啊部長你知道這些私校學學校老師的這個所謂的借聘平台你們設在哪裡部長"},{"start":463.843,"end":466.286,"text":"委員這個宣導我們可能持續啦因為確實我掌握到的也有相當多的老師有參加這方面的課程借聘多少位"},{"start":482.783,"end":492.345,"text":"借聘的確實成效不是那麼好當然啊你放在什麼金屬中心然後告訴我幫助這些私校老師委員這個有一些就是到產業界為什麼會請我知道這是經濟部所屬的單位你們的宣傳實在是太差了所以借聘的效果一點都不好有做這件事情就沒有好好想別的事情而且我要說實在私立學校的年資裡面喔特別是中南部的老師的這個服兵的兩年年資國立大學都可以採集私立大學沒有"},{"start":508.769,"end":535.709,"text":"所以我覺得我們真的是公司力來說的話真的是大希望你要不要給這些私立老師也一個交代兩年差很多特別是他們都要退場的有沒有這些年次差很多部長你要不要在你下任之前好好幫助他們一下你這部分我們再研究一下你這要研究好好然後接下來我真的要說M型的部分拜託現在我們來說的話部長這是一個非常大的一個嚴重的一個問題你看看我們現在說要讓學生快樂學結果呢私校的就讀率9年"},{"start":536.63,"end":561.969,"text":"增加了25%簡直是瘋狂的爆發當中啊你知道近10年來國中生少了25萬人私立公主的就讀率卻多了25%這代表什麼我們公立學校竟然已經經營到目前為止每個家長特別是割喉案之後所有家長都往私立學校去做你反而是教改30年讓我們的M型化越來越嚴重了部長你有沒有正視這個問題"},{"start":564.431,"end":589.808,"text":"我想私校私中尤其是國中的這部分其實各界也有很多的討論那你有沒有什麼任何的方式當然你也沒有你像目前的法律也沒有辦法做任何的限制但重點就是你必須要去思考你不能叫家長你不能叫學生你包括這些你看為什麼要選擇台灣國中生每7個人就有一個念私立學校每7個人就有一個念私立學校這是匪夷所思的"},{"start":590.228,"end":591.749,"text":"但是國民教育的階段如果讓台灣再回到當時義務教育沒有成立的那個小六學生就是要補習"},{"start":613.081,"end":622.23,"text":"現在的師中看到的就是台灣一個非常被扭曲的孩子成長過程因為師中用連招模式擇優而不去進國民義務教育所以大院這邊當時要修私立學校法可不可以讓孩子是受到一個合理的"},{"start":635.363,"end":653.048,"text":"議務教育的過程部長你是最長你歷期最久的這個部分就是應該在你的部分裡面有所作為啊你真的以為說每個家長都很希望把孩子送到私校嗎如果公立經營得很好的話我為什麼要讓孩子進到私校這是一個非常大的問題這是你7年半的部長的任內當中讓M型化我肯定你其他的一個作為辛苦但是M型化在教改30年當中你不得不承認讓我們台灣的M型的社會越來越嚴重讓整個競爭"},{"start":665.011,"end":671.194,"text":"我希望我們大院的委員能夠共同支持修法讓台灣的教育是回到真的義務教育就是義務教育而不是把所有學業最優秀的孩子集中一起然後又號召我這是辦學最好我認為義務教育不應該是如此"},{"start":694.206,"end":694.306,"text":"我應該跟委員報告"},{"start":710.733,"end":710.753,"text":"謝謝部長"}]}}}}