{"id":151234,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151234","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627b64ebfb7c1126dfbcf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c948d85ac98af4f42af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:04:41 - 10:16:54","影片長度":"00:12:13","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":733,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:16:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:04:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":358,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時4分）謝謝主席。我先請黃天牧主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：召委好！"],["郭委員國文：主委好！主委，這段時間您辛苦了，本人到財政委員會也是進入第5年，跟你的任期重疊的比例算相當的高，我個人對你的施政風格送你四個字，是「行穩漸進」，你不是只有守成而已，你也有面對一些事實變化而予以介入，當然我必須說，據我觀察，您是因為任期的因素，而不是個別的事件，但是新主委已經出爐了，我想就教於黃主委，對於未來的新主委，你有沒有什麼期許？"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝召委給我這個機會，早上我跟記者報告的時候說，其實我跟彭主委是舊識，我對他有八個字，就是「歷練完整，學驗俱優」，我昨天也跟他通過電話，我想未來在他上任之前，我們有機會可以交換意見。"],["郭委員國文：好，那有沒有哪些你未完成的政策目標你認為應該請他繼續完成的？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想大家比較關心的就是虛擬資產的專法，這個部分我們啟動了，9月底之前會完成，這個部分是大家很關心，另外，就是今天討論的BNPL這些社會關注的議題，可能都要再凝聚共識，我想他非常有能力，他應該會處理得很好。"],["郭委員國文：看起來主委對他諸多肯定，主委，不過我必須說，您的表現確實如同吳秉叡委員所說的一般，有為有守，值得肯定！","後續的部分，在您的報告內容當中，就今天的主題部分，嚴格來說，我覺得你雖然大概把整個融資公司分為三項，但是基本上你認為比較有問題的部分應該是屬於類似消貸的部分……"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["郭委員國文：企貸的部分似乎比較沒有爭議，對不對？但是企貸的比例高達53%，也是高達3,800多億，也就是為什麼這些中小企業必須要透過融資公司才能取得資金，站在一個普惠金融的角度當中，我相信銀行局也好，公股銀行也好，還有努力之處，不是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，您指教的，包括剛剛吳委員也提到這一點，我覺得是有再努力的空間，雖然現在有信保機制，可是銀行本身在做相關授信有其既有的典範，要怎麼把這個典範去突破，對這種信用風險不好的、不是那麼佳的或是社經地位不佳的個人、企業，這個需要做長遠的思考。"],["郭委員國文：對，但是我一般聽到坊間說的，就是銀行的手續很麻煩等等，反正就有諸多因素，這代表還有改革的空間，其實企業、民間取得資金的部分如果切為三層的話，銀行是一層，融資公司是一層，還有就是地下錢莊……"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["郭委員國文：融資公司就很像是地上錢莊，它基本上就是一個合法的錢莊，也是高利，相對銀行，是高利，可是它轉手之間把低利的銀行取得又轉成高利的借出，來獲取利差。","我們請部長，莊部長，還有陳政次也來一下。","我舉一個例子，我問部長，你有對外表示，公股銀行不要放貸給先買後付，就禁止這些融資公司來進行這樣的放貸行為，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我不是這樣說，基本上，目前社會上對於這些的爭議也就是融資租賃公司給一些年輕的小白們很高的錢，但是利率收的很高，以至於他們無法負荷，所以我們請公股銀行注意一下，在貸放的時候，我相信貸放的時候，都依照審核的規定來做，5P原則也好，相關的金融規範也好，至於後面的資金用途，也要去注意貸後的管理，而不希望我們貸出去的錢被他們拿去做這樣的用途，並不是說不能做這樣的用途。"],["郭委員國文：對，要善盡這樣的社會責任嘛！部長……"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["郭委員國文：但是類似這種無擔保的資金取得，我們看到有幾個現象，雖然剛剛金管會及財政部都特別強調，目前融資公司有自律規範，但是自律規範當中是不是能夠規範得到，我個人還是存疑，這個至少有三種方式是屬於無擔保的狀況，一種是假買賣真放貸，另外一種是一車多貸，不管你幾胎，都可以貸，另外一種是以貸養貸，約略有這三種方式，如果財政部對於先買後付有這樣的規範，是不是如同這樣的消貸行為也應該一併要求公股銀行在放貸的時候要一併處理呢？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：公股銀行未來在做放款的時候，當然除了要按照金管法規之外，還要根據公會裡面有的規範，因為現在金管會已經要求租賃公會要訂定自律準則……"],["郭委員國文：是，4月3日已經公布了。"],["莊部長翠雲：它就會按照這樣的準則，在審核的時候放進來一起看，當然，貸後管理也同樣要去看資金用途有沒有符合當時貸款的用途。"],["郭委員國文：好，你現在就推給自律規範。我問一下陳正祺政次。"],["陳次長正祺：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：你剛剛說消保法第十七條是屬於他律的條款，你有沒有想過消保法第十七條有沒有辦法把這些行為加以列舉？還有包括許多委員所說的，它在消貸行為當中巧立名目，不論是手續費、保管費、拖吊費、違約金等等，對於這種巧立名目有沒有辦法在他律的部分進行約束？有沒有可能？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，我們回去再仔細研議，不過我初步的感覺是消費者保護法必須針對真正的買賣、有消費者去買東西的買賣契約做規定。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["陳次長正祺：第二點，如果涉及假買賣、真貸款，那就有可能涉及違法，如果有違法，我們就會移送檢調偵辦。"],["郭委員國文：我問一下署長，這個行為有沒有辦法處理？"],["蘇署長文玲：跟委員報告，其實剛剛次長有講到，如果是用假買賣，那真的就是違法的行為，必須要移送檢調。"],["郭委員國文：我希望把這些諸多的樣態一併處理，如果自律的部分規範不足，他律也要進行，我們把這些現象列舉出來，讓你們現在剛好要修法的時候來進行，可不可以？"],["蘇署長文玲：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：好。另外，黃主委，我看了中租控股的財報，意外地發現中租在擔保銀行的借貸利息最低是1.63%，無擔保的部分居然低於1.15%，這大概是類似台積電這種半導體公司可以借到的成本價，這種情況底下，你有沒有注意到？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我必須說，委員，您明察秋毫，如果這個資料，是不是允許我……要不然時間有限，我會後跟您……我沒有特別注意到……"],["郭委員國文：這個很離譜耶！它居然拿到比青安貸還低的資金成本，主委，這是什麼理由？不然我問一下部長，部長，你知道國公股銀行現在貸款的成本多少嗎？銀行局也來補充一下。中租控股居然可以拿到1.15%的利率，部長，你也說一下嘛！國公股銀行到現在目前狀況怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想確實如委員所列，這樣是有一些不太一樣，以青安貸款來說，您剛剛提的也是1.775%。"],["郭委員國文：對呀！比青安貸還低，然後它放出去的合法利率是16%，剛剛換算起來，最高還可以到47%，這是暴利耶！這真的是暴利集團！這種情況底下，為什麼他們會拿到這麼多的資金及這麼高的利率？我稍微查了一下，這又跟銀行局有關係，銀行局待會再補充說明一下。中租及裕隆違反這麼多社會責任的情況底下，居然他們的公司治理評鑑還排名在5%的業者、名列前茅。莊局長，你知道他們的利率大概多少？他們為什麼能夠得到這麼高的治理評鑑？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，因為對銀行而言，他們從5P的原則去審核的時候，覺得這些租賃公司單純從5P來看的時候，這些租賃公司尤其是三大……"],["郭委員國文：我看你還是回去把我那些資料列舉給我好了，好不好？謝謝。","接下來，主委，我再跟您說明一下，從這個財報的內容當中我還意外發現，融資租賃公司的利息在中國的收入居然高達臺灣的25倍，達到258.85億，當整個國營放款逐漸下低到25%的情況底下，我們卻讓融資公司的資金拚命地往中國跑，而且利息收入是臺灣的25倍，我估計起來一般投融公司在中國的放貸推估超過2,000億，這個暴險的問題要不要管？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，這個要看它資金的來源，對於您的問題我們有瞭解過，就是這3家上市的租賃公司在大陸的經營，國內如果要投資到海外，其實都要透過投審會，一定金額是經過核准，一定金額是備查，基本上我們看到它平均由國內資金挹注到大陸的金額比例不高，很多都是從大陸當地的金融機構去借款的，這部分就跟臺灣沒有什麼……沒有系統風險太大的問題。"],["郭委員國文：有一點類似，但是估計起來你去查看看這個暴險金額大概可以多到……因為我從財報當中完全看不出來。目前中國大陸的地產風暴問題非常嚴重，是不是把這些錢跑到這些地方去了，而取得高利、高風險的利息？也要請證交所是不是請會計師去中國進行實地的查核，有沒有可能？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟您報告，其實臺灣的金融體系提供給租賃公司轉到大陸的部分大概只有臺幣200億，其實不多，大部分是在當地就地融資的，所以……"],["郭委員國文：200億去那邊可以賺285億。"],["黃主任委員天牧：不是，當地是子公司，它可以在當地的金融機構去融資。"],["郭委員國文：真的這麼厲害？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，它有向當地的金融機構借……"],["郭委員國文：它用200億可以賺到285億？"],["黃主任委員天牧：不是，它的資金來源不是……臺灣部分只有200……"],["郭委員國文：我知道，它藉由當地的資金來進行槓桿的操作。"],["黃主任委員天牧：它那邊可能比較高，我覺得這是看……我們要去研究一下，但是……"],["郭委員國文：麻煩你研究一下。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們很重視彼此之間的系統風險。"],["郭委員國文：因為時間非常有限，我最後跟你講一下。同樣是你們列管的，你們業管底下的代辦行為對銀行的部分是禁止的，可是上市、上櫃公司底下也是您業管的融資公司，代辦業者的行為實在是非常誇張，連機車就可以貸到500萬，這個部分也請你注意一下，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們已經注意到要留意loan to value，不能夠只是用應收貸款收買的方式去處理，這部分會納入，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：好，那就麻煩主委費心了。謝謝主委，謝謝部長。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝郭國文委員。","下面是王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"151234","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151234","tool":"pyannote","id":"151234-pyannote"},"job_id":"Rwn2ZO3crNDdERqQ","queued_at":"2024-06-01 09:18:37","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-01 09:20:21","msg":"downloading 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{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 557.718, \"end\": 557.878, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 557.878, \"end\": 557.978, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 557.978, \"end\": 558.359, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 558.359, \"end\": 558.479, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 558.479, \"end\": 558.619, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 558.619, \"end\": 558.639, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 559.779, \"end\": 587.957, \"text\": \"謝謝接下來那個主委我再跟您說明一下從這個財報的內容當中我還意外發現這個融資租用公司的利息在中國的收入居然高達台灣的25倍在中國高達258.85億在整個國營這一個販款逐漸下跌到25%的情況底下可是我們卻把這個融資公司的資金拼命地往中國跑\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 559.779, \"end\": 559.92, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 559.92, \"end\": 561.32, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 561.32, \"end\": 561.741, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 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582.934, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 582.934, \"end\": 583.054, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 583.054, \"end\": 583.374, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 583.374, \"end\": 583.514, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 583.514, \"end\": 584.094, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 584.094, \"end\": 584.274, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 584.274, \"end\": 584.575, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 584.575, \"end\": 585.375, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"卻\"}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 585.375, \"end\": 585.775, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"融\", \"start\": 585.775, \"end\": 586.115, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 586.115, \"end\": 586.316, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 586.316, \"end\": 586.416, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 586.416, \"end\": 586.656, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 586.656, \"end\": 586.996, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"拼\", \"start\": 586.996, \"end\": 587.196, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"命\", \"start\": 587.196, \"end\": 587.316, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 587.316, \"end\": 587.416, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"往\", \"start\": 587.416, \"end\": 587.596, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 587.596, \"end\": 587.937, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"跑\", \"start\": 587.937, \"end\": 587.957, \"score\": 0.945}]}, {\"start\": 588.865, \"end\": 596.248, \"text\": \"委員這個要看他的資金的來源您的問題我們有瞭解過就是這三家上市的主任公司他在大陸的經營從國內的因為國內如果要投資到海外其實都要透過投審會一定金額是核准一定金額是備查\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 588.865, \"end\": 588.925, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 588.925, \"end\": 589.005, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 589.005, \"end\": 589.125, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 589.125, \"end\": 589.245, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 589.245, \"end\": 589.265, \"score\": 0.01}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 589.265, \"end\": 589.365, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 589.365, \"end\": 589.425, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 589.425, \"end\": 589.545, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 589.545, \"end\": 589.665, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 589.665, \"end\": 589.705, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 589.705, \"end\": 589.825, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 589.825, \"end\": 590.266, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"瞭\", \"start\": 590.266, \"end\": 590.466, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 590.466, \"end\": 591.046, 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\"end\": 594.327, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 594.327, \"end\": 594.447, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 594.447, \"end\": 594.687, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 594.687, \"end\": 594.807, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"透\", \"start\": 594.807, \"end\": 595.147, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 595.147, \"end\": 595.288, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 595.288, \"end\": 595.388, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 595.388, \"end\": 595.488, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 595.488, \"end\": 595.548, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"額\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 595.548, \"end\": 595.668, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 595.668, \"end\": 595.708, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"准\", \"start\": 595.708, \"end\": 595.788, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 595.788, \"end\": 595.848, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 595.848, \"end\": 595.988, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 595.988, \"end\": 596.088, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"額\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 596.088, \"end\": 596.228, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 596.228, \"end\": 596.248, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 617.136, \"end\": 639.429, \"text\": \"那基本上我們看到平均由國內資金挹注到大陸的金額比例不高很多都是從大陸當地的金融機構去借款的那這部分就跟台灣沒有什麼有一點類似沒有系統風險太大的問題但是估計起來你去查看看這個風險金額大概可以多少因為我從財報當中完全看不出來因為目前中國大陸當中目前的這個地產風暴的問題非常的嚴重是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 617.136, \"end\": 617.496, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 617.496, \"end\": 617.616, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 617.616, \"end\": 617.796, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 617.796, \"end\": 618.057, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 618.057, \"end\": 618.297, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 618.297, 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{\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 731.118, \"end\": 731.719, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 731.719, \"end\": 731.819, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 731.819, \"end\": 731.919, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 731.919, \"end\": 731.939, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,209 --> 00:00:28,674\n謝謝主席我先請黃天牧主委主委好主委這段時間您辛苦了本人到財政委員會也是進入第五年剛好跟你的任期適逢重疊的比例算相當的高我個人對你的施政風格送你四個字是行穩漸進你不是只有\n\n2\n00:00:29,614 --> 00:00:47,719\n走診而已你也有面對一些事實變化而予以介入當然我必須說就我觀察你是因為任期的因素而不是個別的事件但是新主委已經出爐我想就交於黃主委對於未來的新主委你有沒有什麼期許\n\n3\n00:00:49,480 --> 00:00:51,041\n那有沒有哪些你未完成的政策目標你認為應該請他繼續完成的?\n\n4\n00:01:17,989 --> 00:01:42,605\n我想大家比較關心的就是虛擬資產的專法這個部分我們啟動了9月底之前會完成的這個部分是大家很關心那另外就是今天討論的這些社會關注的BNPL這些議題可能都要再凝聚構思那我想他非常\n\n5\n00:01:47,287 --> 00:02:04,031\n主委對他諸多肯定不過主委我必須說您的表現確實如同吳秉諭委員所說的一般有為有所值得肯定後續的部分在您的報告內容當中就今天的主題的部分我覺得今天主題的部分嚴格來說\n\n6\n00:02:05,111 --> 00:02:20,023\n你大概把整個融資公司雖然分為三項但是基本上你認為比較有問題的部分應該是屬於類似消貸的部分比較有問題氣貸的部分似乎比較沒有爭議嘛對不對但是氣貸的比例是高達53%也是高達3800多億\n\n7\n00:02:24,546 --> 00:02:48,901\n為什麼這些中小企業必須要透過融資公司才能取得資金?站在一個普惠金融的角度當中,我相信銀行局也好,公股銀行也好,還有努力之處,不是嗎?我覺得委員您指教的,包括剛才委員也提到這一點,我覺得是有在努力的空間,雖然現在有信保機制,可是銀行本身它在做相關受信用,它既有的一個典範,\n\n8\n00:02:50,222 --> 00:03:14,139\n那怎麼把這個典範要去突破對這種信用風險不好的不是那麼佳的或是社經地位不佳的個人企業這個需要做長遠的思考對但是我一般聽到坊間就是銀行的手續很麻煩等等反正就有諸多因素這代表還有改革的空間了嘛那當然是企業民間取得資金的部分如果把它切為三層的話銀行是一層嘛\n\n9\n00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:14,859\n當然我們請部長\n\n10\n00:03:36,084 --> 00:03:51,520\n中部長然後還有包括陳正智也來一下齁我舉一個例子齁我問部長你也對外表示公股銀行齁不要用先買後付齁就禁止這樣放貸行為了嗎齁禁止這些融資公司來進行這樣的放貸行為是不是\n\n11\n00:03:52,491 --> 00:04:15,260\n跟委員報告我不是這樣說基本上也就是說在目前來說社會上對於有些這些爭議也就是融資註定公司他給了一些給一些年輕的小白們就是很高的錢但是利率收得很高以致他們的無法負荷也就是說我們請公股銀行注意一下你在貸放的時候我相信貸放的時候都依照審核的規定來做五批原則也好啊相關的金融規範也好\n\n12\n00:04:17,381 --> 00:04:27,805\n那至於後面的資金用途也要去注意貸後的管理而不希望我們貸出去的錢被他們拿去做這樣的一個用途並不是說不能做這樣的用途有善盡於這樣的社會責任嘛那個部長那但是類似這種無擔保的資金的取得齁\n\n13\n00:04:34,488 --> 00:04:51,267\n我們看到有幾個現象雖然剛剛我們金管會跟財政部都特別強調說目前融資公司他們有自律規範但自律規範當中是不是能夠規範得到我個人還是保持存疑因為至少有三種方式是屬於無擔保的狀況一種是假買賣真放貸\n\n14\n00:04:53,590 --> 00:04:53,610\n部長﹗\n\n15\n00:05:15,441 --> 00:05:40,470\n公股銀行未來在做這個放款的時候當然是要去按照金管法規之外還要根據工會裡面它有的一些規範因為現在金管會已經要求相關的那要求租賃工會要訂訂定那個自律準則那它就要按照這樣準則在審核的時候要把它放進來一起看那當然代後管理也同樣要去看它的資金用途有沒有符合當時貸費的用途你現在都推給自律規範啦好來那我問一下陳正琦那個陳正智\n\n16\n00:05:42,271 --> 00:06:06,563\n政治你剛剛說消保法第17條的時候這是屬於他律的條款嘛你有沒有想過消保法第17條的時候有沒有辦法把這些行為裡頭把它列舉還有包括剛剛許多多委員所說的他在消待這個放款行為當中巧立名目不論是手續費、保管費、脫調費、違約金等等各種巧立名目的部分有沒有辦法在他律的部分來進行約束有沒有可能\n\n17\n00:06:08,476 --> 00:06:29,116\n這個我們回去再仔細研議不過我初步的感覺是消費者保護法要必須要針對真正的買賣有消費者去買東西我們針對這個買賣契約來做規定第二點如果涉及假買賣徵貸款的話那就涉及有可能違法違法我們就會移送檢調來偵辦那我問一下那個處長這個行為有沒有辦法處理\n\n18\n00:06:34,105 --> 00:06:56,573\n主席署長是是跟委員報告齁其實剛剛次長有講到他如果是用假買賣那真的就是違法的行為就是必須要遵守對我希望把這些諸多的樣態齁一併處理啊如果要自律的部分如果規範不足他律要進行啊我們是把這些現象列舉出來齁讓你們現在剛好要修法的時候來進行嘛好不好可不可以\n\n19\n00:06:58,994 --> 00:07:05,878\n另外,我看了中租抵合控股的財報,意外發現中租在擔保銀行借貸的利息\n\n20\n00:07:12,682 --> 00:07:13,743\n臺積電、半導體公司可借到的成本價\n\n21\n00:07:29,378 --> 00:07:53,439\n我必須說委員您明察秋毫那如果這個資料我想我是不是允許我要不然是時間有限我匯報給你我沒有特別沒有特別這個很離譜欸他居然拿到比清安貸還低的這個資金成本這什麼理由?但我問一下部長你知道國公股銀行現在貸款的他的成本多少嗎?銀行局也來補充一下\n\n22\n00:07:54,997 --> 00:08:21,815\n中租控股居然可以拿到1.15%的利率主委、部長你也說一下嘛國共股、銀行到現在目前狀況怎麼樣嘛我想這個確實如委員所列這樣子是有一些不太一樣以清安貸款您剛剛提的也是1.775以清安來說已經是1.775清安貸還低然後他放出去的合法的利率是16%剛剛換算起來最高還可以到47%\n\n23\n00:08:23,816 --> 00:08:48,536\n這暴力欸這是暴力集團欸那這種情況底下為什麼他們會拿到這麼多的資金還有這麼多的利率我稍微查一下齁這又跟那個銀行局有關係銀行局待會再補充說明一下居然中租啊跟育農啊違反這麼多的社會責任的情況底下你知道嗎他們的公司治理評鑑啊還在前5%的業者欸還名列前茅欸那個局長\n\n24\n00:08:50,140 --> 00:09:18,639\n你要不要補充?欸,梁局長,莊局長你知道部分他們利率大概多少?然後他們為什麼能夠得到這麼高的治理評鑑?報告委員,因為對銀行而言他們覺得他從5P的原則來去審核的時候覺得這些租賃公司單純從5P來看的時候這些租賃公司算是尤其是三大我看你還是回去把我那資料列舉給我好了啦,好不好?\n\n25\n00:09:19,779 --> 00:09:47,957\n謝謝接下來那個主委我再跟您說明一下從這個財報的內容當中我還意外發現這個融資租用公司的利息在中國的收入居然高達台灣的25倍在中國高達258.85億在整個國營這一個販款逐漸下跌到25%的情況底下可是我們卻把這個融資公司的資金拼命地往中國跑\n\n26\n00:09:48,865 --> 00:09:56,248\n委員這個要看他的資金的來源您的問題我們有瞭解過就是這三家上市的主任公司他在大陸的經營從國內的因為國內如果要投資到海外其實都要透過投審會一定金額是核准一定金額是備查\n\n27\n00:10:17,136 --> 00:10:39,429\n那基本上我們看到平均由國內資金挹注到大陸的金額比例不高很多都是從大陸當地的金融機構去借款的那這部分就跟台灣沒有什麼有一點類似沒有系統風險太大的問題但是估計起來你去查看看這個風險金額大概可以多少因為我從財報當中完全看不出來因為目前中國大陸當中目前的這個地產風暴的問題非常的嚴重是\n\n28\n00:10:42,971 --> 00:10:47,635\n我跟您報告其實臺灣的金融體系提供給這些租賃公司轉到大陸大概只有臺幣200億其實不多所以我跟您報告大部分是在當地就地\n\n29\n00:11:11,618 --> 00:11:11,638\n韓國瑜\n\n30\n00:11:33,001 --> 00:12:02,353\n他那邊的費用可能比較高我覺得我們要去研究一下麻煩你研究一下我最後跟你講一下因為同樣是以你的業管的部分底下的代辦行為是禁止的對於銀行的部分是禁止的可是上市上櫃底下也是你業管的部分的融資公司能有代辦的業者的行為實在是令人非常誇張連機車就可以代到500萬這個部分也請你注意一下好不好\n\n31\n00:12:02,984 --> 00:12:11,939\n我們已經注意到要注意longtovalue不能夠只是用營收貸款收買的方式去處理這部分會納入好那就麻煩主委費心了謝謝主委謝謝部長謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1209\t28674\t謝謝主席我先請黃天牧主委主委好主委這段時間您辛苦了本人到財政委員會也是進入第五年剛好跟你的任期適逢重疊的比例算相當的高我個人對你的施政風格送你四個字是行穩漸進你不是只有\n29614\t47719\t走診而已你也有面對一些事實變化而予以介入當然我必須說就我觀察你是因為任期的因素而不是個別的事件但是新主委已經出爐我想就交於黃主委對於未來的新主委你有沒有什麼期許\n49480\t51041\t那有沒有哪些你未完成的政策目標你認為應該請他繼續完成的?\n77989\t102605\t我想大家比較關心的就是虛擬資產的專法這個部分我們啟動了9月底之前會完成的這個部分是大家很關心那另外就是今天討論的這些社會關注的BNPL這些議題可能都要再凝聚構思那我想他非常\n107287\t124031\t主委對他諸多肯定不過主委我必須說您的表現確實如同吳秉諭委員所說的一般有為有所值得肯定後續的部分在您的報告內容當中就今天的主題的部分我覺得今天主題的部分嚴格來說\n125111\t140023\t你大概把整個融資公司雖然分為三項但是基本上你認為比較有問題的部分應該是屬於類似消貸的部分比較有問題氣貸的部分似乎比較沒有爭議嘛對不對但是氣貸的比例是高達53%也是高達3800多億\n144546\t168901\t為什麼這些中小企業必須要透過融資公司才能取得資金?站在一個普惠金融的角度當中,我相信銀行局也好,公股銀行也好,還有努力之處,不是嗎?我覺得委員您指教的,包括剛才委員也提到這一點,我覺得是有在努力的空間,雖然現在有信保機制,可是銀行本身它在做相關受信用,它既有的一個典範,\n170222\t194139\t那怎麼把這個典範要去突破對這種信用風險不好的不是那麼佳的或是社經地位不佳的個人企業這個需要做長遠的思考對 但是我一般聽到坊間就是銀行的手續很麻煩等等反正就有諸多因素這代表還有改革的空間了嘛那當然是企業民間取得資金的部分如果把它切為三層的話銀行是一層嘛\n194639\t194859\t當然我們請部長\n216084\t231520\t中部長然後還有包括陳正智也來一下齁我舉一個例子齁我問部長你也對外表示公股銀行齁不要用先買後付齁就禁止這樣放貸行為了嗎齁禁止這些融資公司來進行這樣的放貸行為是不是\n232491\t255260\t跟委員報告我不是這樣說基本上也就是說在目前來說社會上對於有些這些爭議也就是融資註定公司他給了一些給一些年輕的小白們就是很高的錢但是利率收得很高以致他們的無法負荷也就是說我們請公股銀行注意一下你在貸放的時候我相信貸放的時候都依照審核的規定來做五批原則也好啊相關的金融規範也好\n257381\t267805\t那至於後面的資金用途也要去注意貸後的管理而不希望我們貸出去的錢被他們拿去做這樣的一個用途並不是說不能做這樣的用途有善盡於這樣的社會責任嘛那個部長那但是類似這種無擔保的資金的取得齁\n274488\t291267\t我們看到有幾個現象雖然剛剛我們金管會跟財政部都特別強調說目前融資公司他們有自律規範但自律規範當中是不是能夠規範得到我個人還是保持存疑因為至少有三種方式是屬於無擔保的狀況一種是假買賣真放貸\n293590\t293610\t部長﹗\n315441\t340470\t公股銀行未來在做這個放款的時候當然是要去按照金管法規之外還要根據工會裡面它有的一些規範因為現在金管會已經要求相關的那要求租賃工會要訂訂定那個自律準則那它就要按照這樣準則在審核的時候要把它放進來一起看那當然代後管理也同樣要去看它的資金用途有沒有符合當時貸費的用途你現在都推給自律規範啦好來那我問一下陳正琦那個陳正智\n342271\t366563\t政治你剛剛說消保法第17條的時候這是屬於他律的條款嘛你有沒有想過消保法第17條的時候有沒有辦法把這些行為裡頭把它列舉還有包括剛剛許多多委員所說的他在消待這個放款行為當中巧立名目不論是手續費、保管費、脫調費、違約金等等各種巧立名目的部分有沒有辦法在他律的部分來進行約束有沒有可能\n368476\t389116\t這個我們回去再仔細研議不過我初步的感覺是消費者保護法要必須要針對真正的買賣有消費者去買東西我們針對這個買賣契約來做規定第二點如果涉及假買賣徵貸款的話那就涉及有可能違法違法我們就會移送檢調來偵辦那我問一下那個處長這個行為有沒有辦法處理\n394105\t416573\t主席署長是是跟委員報告齁其實剛剛次長有講到他如果是用假買賣那真的就是違法的行為就是必須要遵守對我希望把這些諸多的樣態齁一併處理啊如果要自律的部分如果規範不足他律要進行啊我們是把這些現象列舉出來齁讓你們現在剛好要修法的時候來進行嘛好不好可不可以\n418994\t425878\t另外,我看了中租抵合控股的財報,意外發現中租在擔保銀行借貸的利息\n432682\t433743\t臺積電、半導體公司可借到的成本價\n449378\t473439\t我必須說委員您明察秋毫那如果這個資料我想我是不是允許我要不然是時間有限我匯報給你我沒有特別沒有特別這個很離譜欸他居然拿到比清安貸還低的這個資金成本這什麼理由?但我問一下部長你知道國公股銀行現在貸款的他的成本多少嗎?銀行局也來補充一下\n474997\t501815\t中租控股居然可以拿到1.15%的利率主委、部長你也說一下嘛國共股、銀行到現在目前狀況怎麼樣嘛我想這個確實如委員所列這樣子是有一些不太一樣以清安貸款您剛剛提的也是1.775以清安來說已經是1.775清安貸還低然後他放出去的合法的利率是16%剛剛換算起來最高還可以到47%\n503816\t528536\t這暴力欸這是暴力集團欸那這種情況底下為什麼他們會拿到這麼多的資金還有這麼多的利率我稍微查一下齁這又跟那個銀行局有關係銀行局待會再補充說明一下居然中租啊跟育農啊違反這麼多的社會責任的情況底下你知道嗎他們的公司治理評鑑啊還在前5%的業者欸還名列前茅欸那個局長\n530140\t558639\t你要不要補充?欸,梁局長,莊局長你知道部分他們利率大概多少?然後他們為什麼能夠得到這麼高的治理評鑑?報告委員,因為對銀行而言他們覺得他從5P的原則來去審核的時候覺得這些租賃公司單純從5P來看的時候這些租賃公司算是尤其是三大我看你還是回去把我那資料列舉給我好了啦,好不好?\n559779\t587957\t謝謝接下來那個主委我再跟您說明一下從這個財報的內容當中我還意外發現這個融資租用公司的利息在中國的收入居然高達台灣的25倍在中國高達258.85億在整個國營這一個販款逐漸下跌到25%的情況底下可是我們卻把這個融資公司的資金拼命地往中國跑\n588865\t596248\t委員這個要看他的資金的來源您的問題我們有瞭解過就是這三家上市的主任公司他在大陸的經營從國內的因為國內如果要投資到海外其實都要透過投審會一定金額是核准一定金額是備查\n617136\t639429\t那基本上我們看到平均由國內資金挹注到大陸的金額比例不高很多都是從大陸當地的金融機構去借款的那這部分就跟台灣沒有什麼有一點類似沒有系統風險太大的問題但是估計起來你去查看看這個風險金額大概可以多少因為我從財報當中完全看不出來因為目前中國大陸當中目前的這個地產風暴的問題非常的嚴重是\n642971\t647635\t我跟您報告其實臺灣的金融體系提供給這些租賃公司轉到大陸大概只有臺幣200億其實不多所以我跟您報告大部分是在當地就地\n671618\t671638\t韓國瑜\n693001\t722353\t他那邊的費用可能比較高我覺得我們要去研究一下麻煩你研究一下我最後跟你講一下因為同樣是以你的業管的部分底下的代辦行為是禁止的對於銀行的部分是禁止的可是上市上櫃底下也是你業管的部分的融資公司能有代辦的業者的行為實在是令人非常誇張連機車就可以代到500萬這個部分也請你注意一下好不好\n722984\t731939\t我們已經注意到要注意long to value不能夠只是用營收貸款收買的方式去處理這部分會納入好那就麻煩主委費心了謝謝主委謝謝部長謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席我先請黃天牧主委主委好主委這段時間您辛苦了本人到財政委員會也是進入第五年剛好跟你的任期適逢重疊的比例算相當的高我個人對你的施政風格送你四個字是行穩漸進你不是只有\n走診而已你也有面對一些事實變化而予以介入當然我必須說就我觀察你是因為任期的因素而不是個別的事件但是新主委已經出爐我想就交於黃主委對於未來的新主委你有沒有什麼期許\n那有沒有哪些你未完成的政策目標你認為應該請他繼續完成的?\n我想大家比較關心的就是虛擬資產的專法這個部分我們啟動了9月底之前會完成的這個部分是大家很關心那另外就是今天討論的這些社會關注的BNPL這些議題可能都要再凝聚構思那我想他非常\n主委對他諸多肯定不過主委我必須說您的表現確實如同吳秉諭委員所說的一般有為有所值得肯定後續的部分在您的報告內容當中就今天的主題的部分我覺得今天主題的部分嚴格來說\n你大概把整個融資公司雖然分為三項但是基本上你認為比較有問題的部分應該是屬於類似消貸的部分比較有問題氣貸的部分似乎比較沒有爭議嘛對不對但是氣貸的比例是高達53%也是高達3800多億\n為什麼這些中小企業必須要透過融資公司才能取得資金?站在一個普惠金融的角度當中,我相信銀行局也好,公股銀行也好,還有努力之處,不是嗎?我覺得委員您指教的,包括剛才委員也提到這一點,我覺得是有在努力的空間,雖然現在有信保機制,可是銀行本身它在做相關受信用,它既有的一個典範,\n那怎麼把這個典範要去突破對這種信用風險不好的不是那麼佳的或是社經地位不佳的個人企業這個需要做長遠的思考對 但是我一般聽到坊間就是銀行的手續很麻煩等等反正就有諸多因素這代表還有改革的空間了嘛那當然是企業民間取得資金的部分如果把它切為三層的話銀行是一層嘛\n當然我們請部長\n中部長然後還有包括陳正智也來一下齁我舉一個例子齁我問部長你也對外表示公股銀行齁不要用先買後付齁就禁止這樣放貸行為了嗎齁禁止這些融資公司來進行這樣的放貸行為是不是\n跟委員報告我不是這樣說基本上也就是說在目前來說社會上對於有些這些爭議也就是融資註定公司他給了一些給一些年輕的小白們就是很高的錢但是利率收得很高以致他們的無法負荷也就是說我們請公股銀行注意一下你在貸放的時候我相信貸放的時候都依照審核的規定來做五批原則也好啊相關的金融規範也好\n那至於後面的資金用途也要去注意貸後的管理而不希望我們貸出去的錢被他們拿去做這樣的一個用途並不是說不能做這樣的用途有善盡於這樣的社會責任嘛那個部長那但是類似這種無擔保的資金的取得齁\n我們看到有幾個現象雖然剛剛我們金管會跟財政部都特別強調說目前融資公司他們有自律規範但自律規範當中是不是能夠規範得到我個人還是保持存疑因為至少有三種方式是屬於無擔保的狀況一種是假買賣真放貸\n部長﹗\n公股銀行未來在做這個放款的時候當然是要去按照金管法規之外還要根據工會裡面它有的一些規範因為現在金管會已經要求相關的那要求租賃工會要訂訂定那個自律準則那它就要按照這樣準則在審核的時候要把它放進來一起看那當然代後管理也同樣要去看它的資金用途有沒有符合當時貸費的用途你現在都推給自律規範啦好來那我問一下陳正琦那個陳正智\n政治你剛剛說消保法第17條的時候這是屬於他律的條款嘛你有沒有想過消保法第17條的時候有沒有辦法把這些行為裡頭把它列舉還有包括剛剛許多多委員所說的他在消待這個放款行為當中巧立名目不論是手續費、保管費、脫調費、違約金等等各種巧立名目的部分有沒有辦法在他律的部分來進行約束有沒有可能\n這個我們回去再仔細研議不過我初步的感覺是消費者保護法要必須要針對真正的買賣有消費者去買東西我們針對這個買賣契約來做規定第二點如果涉及假買賣徵貸款的話那就涉及有可能違法違法我們就會移送檢調來偵辦那我問一下那個處長這個行為有沒有辦法處理\n主席署長是是跟委員報告齁其實剛剛次長有講到他如果是用假買賣那真的就是違法的行為就是必須要遵守對我希望把這些諸多的樣態齁一併處理啊如果要自律的部分如果規範不足他律要進行啊我們是把這些現象列舉出來齁讓你們現在剛好要修法的時候來進行嘛好不好可不可以\n另外,我看了中租抵合控股的財報,意外發現中租在擔保銀行借貸的利息\n臺積電、半導體公司可借到的成本價\n我必須說委員您明察秋毫那如果這個資料我想我是不是允許我要不然是時間有限我匯報給你我沒有特別沒有特別這個很離譜欸他居然拿到比清安貸還低的這個資金成本這什麼理由?但我問一下部長你知道國公股銀行現在貸款的他的成本多少嗎?銀行局也來補充一下\n中租控股居然可以拿到1.15%的利率主委、部長你也說一下嘛國共股、銀行到現在目前狀況怎麼樣嘛我想這個確實如委員所列這樣子是有一些不太一樣以清安貸款您剛剛提的也是1.775以清安來說已經是1.775清安貸還低然後他放出去的合法的利率是16%剛剛換算起來最高還可以到47%\n這暴力欸這是暴力集團欸那這種情況底下為什麼他們會拿到這麼多的資金還有這麼多的利率我稍微查一下齁這又跟那個銀行局有關係銀行局待會再補充說明一下居然中租啊跟育農啊違反這麼多的社會責任的情況底下你知道嗎他們的公司治理評鑑啊還在前5%的業者欸還名列前茅欸那個局長\n你要不要補充?欸,梁局長,莊局長你知道部分他們利率大概多少?然後他們為什麼能夠得到這麼高的治理評鑑?報告委員,因為對銀行而言他們覺得他從5P的原則來去審核的時候覺得這些租賃公司單純從5P來看的時候這些租賃公司算是尤其是三大我看你還是回去把我那資料列舉給我好了啦,好不好?\n謝謝接下來那個主委我再跟您說明一下從這個財報的內容當中我還意外發現這個融資租用公司的利息在中國的收入居然高達台灣的25倍在中國高達258.85億在整個國營這一個販款逐漸下跌到25%的情況底下可是我們卻把這個融資公司的資金拼命地往中國跑\n委員這個要看他的資金的來源您的問題我們有瞭解過就是這三家上市的主任公司他在大陸的經營從國內的因為國內如果要投資到海外其實都要透過投審會一定金額是核准一定金額是備查\n那基本上我們看到平均由國內資金挹注到大陸的金額比例不高很多都是從大陸當地的金融機構去借款的那這部分就跟台灣沒有什麼有一點類似沒有系統風險太大的問題但是估計起來你去查看看這個風險金額大概可以多少因為我從財報當中完全看不出來因為目前中國大陸當中目前的這個地產風暴的問題非常的嚴重是\n我跟您報告其實臺灣的金融體系提供給這些租賃公司轉到大陸大概只有臺幣200億其實不多所以我跟您報告大部分是在當地就地\n韓國瑜\n他那邊的費用可能比較高我覺得我們要去研究一下麻煩你研究一下我最後跟你講一下因為同樣是以你的業管的部分底下的代辦行為是禁止的對於銀行的部分是禁止的可是上市上櫃底下也是你業管的部分的融資公司能有代辦的業者的行為實在是令人非常誇張連機車就可以代到500萬這個部分也請你注意一下好不好\n我們已經注意到要注意long to value不能夠只是用營收貸款收買的方式去處理這部分會納入好那就麻煩主委費心了謝謝主委謝謝部長謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.209 --> 00:28.674\n謝謝主席我先請黃天牧主委主委好主委這段時間您辛苦了本人到財政委員會也是進入第五年剛好跟你的任期適逢重疊的比例算相當的高我個人對你的施政風格送你四個字是行穩漸進你不是只有\n\n00:29.614 --> 00:47.719\n走診而已你也有面對一些事實變化而予以介入當然我必須說就我觀察你是因為任期的因素而不是個別的事件但是新主委已經出爐我想就交於黃主委對於未來的新主委你有沒有什麼期許\n\n00:49.480 --> 00:51.041\n那有沒有哪些你未完成的政策目標你認為應該請他繼續完成的?\n\n01:17.989 --> 01:42.605\n我想大家比較關心的就是虛擬資產的專法這個部分我們啟動了9月底之前會完成的這個部分是大家很關心那另外就是今天討論的這些社會關注的BNPL這些議題可能都要再凝聚構思那我想他非常\n\n01:47.287 --> 02:04.031\n主委對他諸多肯定不過主委我必須說您的表現確實如同吳秉諭委員所說的一般有為有所值得肯定後續的部分在您的報告內容當中就今天的主題的部分我覺得今天主題的部分嚴格來說\n\n02:05.111 --> 02:20.023\n你大概把整個融資公司雖然分為三項但是基本上你認為比較有問題的部分應該是屬於類似消貸的部分比較有問題氣貸的部分似乎比較沒有爭議嘛對不對但是氣貸的比例是高達53%也是高達3800多億\n\n02:24.546 --> 02:48.901\n為什麼這些中小企業必須要透過融資公司才能取得資金?站在一個普惠金融的角度當中,我相信銀行局也好,公股銀行也好,還有努力之處,不是嗎?我覺得委員您指教的,包括剛才委員也提到這一點,我覺得是有在努力的空間,雖然現在有信保機制,可是銀行本身它在做相關受信用,它既有的一個典範,\n\n02:50.222 --> 03:14.139\n那怎麼把這個典範要去突破對這種信用風險不好的不是那麼佳的或是社經地位不佳的個人企業這個需要做長遠的思考對但是我一般聽到坊間就是銀行的手續很麻煩等等反正就有諸多因素這代表還有改革的空間了嘛那當然是企業民間取得資金的部分如果把它切為三層的話銀行是一層嘛\n\n03:14.639 --> 03:14.859\n當然我們請部長\n\n03:36.084 --> 03:51.520\n中部長然後還有包括陳正智也來一下齁我舉一個例子齁我問部長你也對外表示公股銀行齁不要用先買後付齁就禁止這樣放貸行為了嗎齁禁止這些融資公司來進行這樣的放貸行為是不是\n\n03:52.491 --> 04:15.260\n跟委員報告我不是這樣說基本上也就是說在目前來說社會上對於有些這些爭議也就是融資註定公司他給了一些給一些年輕的小白們就是很高的錢但是利率收得很高以致他們的無法負荷也就是說我們請公股銀行注意一下你在貸放的時候我相信貸放的時候都依照審核的規定來做五批原則也好啊相關的金融規範也好\n\n04:17.381 --> 04:27.805\n那至於後面的資金用途也要去注意貸後的管理而不希望我們貸出去的錢被他們拿去做這樣的一個用途並不是說不能做這樣的用途有善盡於這樣的社會責任嘛那個部長那但是類似這種無擔保的資金的取得齁\n\n04:34.488 --> 04:51.267\n我們看到有幾個現象雖然剛剛我們金管會跟財政部都特別強調說目前融資公司他們有自律規範但自律規範當中是不是能夠規範得到我個人還是保持存疑因為至少有三種方式是屬於無擔保的狀況一種是假買賣真放貸\n\n04:53.590 --> 04:53.610\n部長﹗\n\n05:15.441 --> 05:40.470\n公股銀行未來在做這個放款的時候當然是要去按照金管法規之外還要根據工會裡面它有的一些規範因為現在金管會已經要求相關的那要求租賃工會要訂訂定那個自律準則那它就要按照這樣準則在審核的時候要把它放進來一起看那當然代後管理也同樣要去看它的資金用途有沒有符合當時貸費的用途你現在都推給自律規範啦好來那我問一下陳正琦那個陳正智\n\n05:42.271 --> 06:06.563\n政治你剛剛說消保法第17條的時候這是屬於他律的條款嘛你有沒有想過消保法第17條的時候有沒有辦法把這些行為裡頭把它列舉還有包括剛剛許多多委員所說的他在消待這個放款行為當中巧立名目不論是手續費、保管費、脫調費、違約金等等各種巧立名目的部分有沒有辦法在他律的部分來進行約束有沒有可能\n\n06:08.476 --> 06:29.116\n這個我們回去再仔細研議不過我初步的感覺是消費者保護法要必須要針對真正的買賣有消費者去買東西我們針對這個買賣契約來做規定第二點如果涉及假買賣徵貸款的話那就涉及有可能違法違法我們就會移送檢調來偵辦那我問一下那個處長這個行為有沒有辦法處理\n\n06:34.105 --> 06:56.573\n主席署長是是跟委員報告齁其實剛剛次長有講到他如果是用假買賣那真的就是違法的行為就是必須要遵守對我希望把這些諸多的樣態齁一併處理啊如果要自律的部分如果規範不足他律要進行啊我們是把這些現象列舉出來齁讓你們現在剛好要修法的時候來進行嘛好不好可不可以\n\n06:58.994 --> 07:05.878\n另外,我看了中租抵合控股的財報,意外發現中租在擔保銀行借貸的利息\n\n07:12.682 --> 07:13.743\n臺積電、半導體公司可借到的成本價\n\n07:29.378 --> 07:53.439\n我必須說委員您明察秋毫那如果這個資料我想我是不是允許我要不然是時間有限我匯報給你我沒有特別沒有特別這個很離譜欸他居然拿到比清安貸還低的這個資金成本這什麼理由?但我問一下部長你知道國公股銀行現在貸款的他的成本多少嗎?銀行局也來補充一下\n\n07:54.997 --> 08:21.815\n中租控股居然可以拿到1.15%的利率主委、部長你也說一下嘛國共股、銀行到現在目前狀況怎麼樣嘛我想這個確實如委員所列這樣子是有一些不太一樣以清安貸款您剛剛提的也是1.775以清安來說已經是1.775清安貸還低然後他放出去的合法的利率是16%剛剛換算起來最高還可以到47%\n\n08:23.816 --> 08:48.536\n這暴力欸這是暴力集團欸那這種情況底下為什麼他們會拿到這麼多的資金還有這麼多的利率我稍微查一下齁這又跟那個銀行局有關係銀行局待會再補充說明一下居然中租啊跟育農啊違反這麼多的社會責任的情況底下你知道嗎他們的公司治理評鑑啊還在前5%的業者欸還名列前茅欸那個局長\n\n08:50.140 --> 09:18.639\n你要不要補充?欸,梁局長,莊局長你知道部分他們利率大概多少?然後他們為什麼能夠得到這麼高的治理評鑑?報告委員,因為對銀行而言他們覺得他從5P的原則來去審核的時候覺得這些租賃公司單純從5P來看的時候這些租賃公司算是尤其是三大我看你還是回去把我那資料列舉給我好了啦,好不好?\n\n09:19.779 --> 09:47.957\n謝謝接下來那個主委我再跟您說明一下從這個財報的內容當中我還意外發現這個融資租用公司的利息在中國的收入居然高達台灣的25倍在中國高達258.85億在整個國營這一個販款逐漸下跌到25%的情況底下可是我們卻把這個融資公司的資金拼命地往中國跑\n\n09:48.865 --> 09:56.248\n委員這個要看他的資金的來源您的問題我們有瞭解過就是這三家上市的主任公司他在大陸的經營從國內的因為國內如果要投資到海外其實都要透過投審會一定金額是核准一定金額是備查\n\n10:17.136 --> 10:39.429\n那基本上我們看到平均由國內資金挹注到大陸的金額比例不高很多都是從大陸當地的金融機構去借款的那這部分就跟台灣沒有什麼有一點類似沒有系統風險太大的問題但是估計起來你去查看看這個風險金額大概可以多少因為我從財報當中完全看不出來因為目前中國大陸當中目前的這個地產風暴的問題非常的嚴重是\n\n10:42.971 --> 10:47.635\n我跟您報告其實臺灣的金融體系提供給這些租賃公司轉到大陸大概只有臺幣200億其實不多所以我跟您報告大部分是在當地就地\n\n11:11.618 --> 11:11.638\n韓國瑜\n\n11:33.001 --> 12:02.353\n他那邊的費用可能比較高我覺得我們要去研究一下麻煩你研究一下我最後跟你講一下因為同樣是以你的業管的部分底下的代辦行為是禁止的對於銀行的部分是禁止的可是上市上櫃底下也是你業管的部分的融資公司能有代辦的業者的行為實在是令人非常誇張連機車就可以代到500萬這個部分也請你注意一下好不好\n\n12:02.984 --> 12:11.939\n我們已經注意到要注意longtovalue不能夠只是用營收貸款收買的方式去處理這部分會納入好那就麻煩主委費心了謝謝主委謝謝部長謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.209,"end":28.674,"text":"謝謝主席我先請黃天牧主委主委好主委這段時間您辛苦了本人到財政委員會也是進入第五年剛好跟你的任期適逢重疊的比例算相當的高我個人對你的施政風格送你四個字是行穩漸進你不是只有"},{"start":29.614,"end":47.719,"text":"走診而已你也有面對一些事實變化而予以介入當然我必須說就我觀察你是因為任期的因素而不是個別的事件但是新主委已經出爐我想就交於黃主委對於未來的新主委你有沒有什麼期許"},{"start":49.48,"end":51.041,"text":"那有沒有哪些你未完成的政策目標你認為應該請他繼續完成的?"},{"start":77.989,"end":102.605,"text":"我想大家比較關心的就是虛擬資產的專法這個部分我們啟動了9月底之前會完成的這個部分是大家很關心那另外就是今天討論的這些社會關注的BNPL這些議題可能都要再凝聚構思那我想他非常"},{"start":107.287,"end":124.031,"text":"主委對他諸多肯定不過主委我必須說您的表現確實如同吳秉諭委員所說的一般有為有所值得肯定後續的部分在您的報告內容當中就今天的主題的部分我覺得今天主題的部分嚴格來說"},{"start":125.111,"end":140.023,"text":"你大概把整個融資公司雖然分為三項但是基本上你認為比較有問題的部分應該是屬於類似消貸的部分比較有問題氣貸的部分似乎比較沒有爭議嘛對不對但是氣貸的比例是高達53%也是高達3800多億"},{"start":144.546,"end":168.901,"text":"為什麼這些中小企業必須要透過融資公司才能取得資金?站在一個普惠金融的角度當中,我相信銀行局也好,公股銀行也好,還有努力之處,不是嗎?我覺得委員您指教的,包括剛才委員也提到這一點,我覺得是有在努力的空間,雖然現在有信保機制,可是銀行本身它在做相關受信用,它既有的一個典範,"},{"start":170.222,"end":194.139,"text":"那怎麼把這個典範要去突破對這種信用風險不好的不是那麼佳的或是社經地位不佳的個人企業這個需要做長遠的思考對 但是我一般聽到坊間就是銀行的手續很麻煩等等反正就有諸多因素這代表還有改革的空間了嘛那當然是企業民間取得資金的部分如果把它切為三層的話銀行是一層嘛"},{"start":194.639,"end":194.859,"text":"當然我們請部長"},{"start":216.084,"end":231.52,"text":"中部長然後還有包括陳正智也來一下齁我舉一個例子齁我問部長你也對外表示公股銀行齁不要用先買後付齁就禁止這樣放貸行為了嗎齁禁止這些融資公司來進行這樣的放貸行為是不是"},{"start":232.491,"end":255.26,"text":"跟委員報告我不是這樣說基本上也就是說在目前來說社會上對於有些這些爭議也就是融資註定公司他給了一些給一些年輕的小白們就是很高的錢但是利率收得很高以致他們的無法負荷也就是說我們請公股銀行注意一下你在貸放的時候我相信貸放的時候都依照審核的規定來做五批原則也好啊相關的金融規範也好"},{"start":257.381,"end":267.805,"text":"那至於後面的資金用途也要去注意貸後的管理而不希望我們貸出去的錢被他們拿去做這樣的一個用途並不是說不能做這樣的用途有善盡於這樣的社會責任嘛那個部長那但是類似這種無擔保的資金的取得齁"},{"start":274.488,"end":291.267,"text":"我們看到有幾個現象雖然剛剛我們金管會跟財政部都特別強調說目前融資公司他們有自律規範但自律規範當中是不是能夠規範得到我個人還是保持存疑因為至少有三種方式是屬於無擔保的狀況一種是假買賣真放貸"},{"start":293.59,"end":293.61,"text":"部長﹗"},{"start":315.441,"end":340.47,"text":"公股銀行未來在做這個放款的時候當然是要去按照金管法規之外還要根據工會裡面它有的一些規範因為現在金管會已經要求相關的那要求租賃工會要訂訂定那個自律準則那它就要按照這樣準則在審核的時候要把它放進來一起看那當然代後管理也同樣要去看它的資金用途有沒有符合當時貸費的用途你現在都推給自律規範啦好來那我問一下陳正琦那個陳正智"},{"start":342.271,"end":366.563,"text":"政治你剛剛說消保法第17條的時候這是屬於他律的條款嘛你有沒有想過消保法第17條的時候有沒有辦法把這些行為裡頭把它列舉還有包括剛剛許多多委員所說的他在消待這個放款行為當中巧立名目不論是手續費、保管費、脫調費、違約金等等各種巧立名目的部分有沒有辦法在他律的部分來進行約束有沒有可能"},{"start":368.476,"end":389.116,"text":"這個我們回去再仔細研議不過我初步的感覺是消費者保護法要必須要針對真正的買賣有消費者去買東西我們針對這個買賣契約來做規定第二點如果涉及假買賣徵貸款的話那就涉及有可能違法違法我們就會移送檢調來偵辦那我問一下那個處長這個行為有沒有辦法處理"},{"start":394.105,"end":416.573,"text":"主席署長是是跟委員報告齁其實剛剛次長有講到他如果是用假買賣那真的就是違法的行為就是必須要遵守對我希望把這些諸多的樣態齁一併處理啊如果要自律的部分如果規範不足他律要進行啊我們是把這些現象列舉出來齁讓你們現在剛好要修法的時候來進行嘛好不好可不可以"},{"start":418.994,"end":425.878,"text":"另外,我看了中租抵合控股的財報,意外發現中租在擔保銀行借貸的利息"},{"start":432.682,"end":433.743,"text":"臺積電、半導體公司可借到的成本價"},{"start":449.378,"end":473.439,"text":"我必須說委員您明察秋毫那如果這個資料我想我是不是允許我要不然是時間有限我匯報給你我沒有特別沒有特別這個很離譜欸他居然拿到比清安貸還低的這個資金成本這什麼理由?但我問一下部長你知道國公股銀行現在貸款的他的成本多少嗎?銀行局也來補充一下"},{"start":474.997,"end":501.815,"text":"中租控股居然可以拿到1.15%的利率主委、部長你也說一下嘛國共股、銀行到現在目前狀況怎麼樣嘛我想這個確實如委員所列這樣子是有一些不太一樣以清安貸款您剛剛提的也是1.775以清安來說已經是1.775清安貸還低然後他放出去的合法的利率是16%剛剛換算起來最高還可以到47%"},{"start":503.816,"end":528.536,"text":"這暴力欸這是暴力集團欸那這種情況底下為什麼他們會拿到這麼多的資金還有這麼多的利率我稍微查一下齁這又跟那個銀行局有關係銀行局待會再補充說明一下居然中租啊跟育農啊違反這麼多的社會責任的情況底下你知道嗎他們的公司治理評鑑啊還在前5%的業者欸還名列前茅欸那個局長"},{"start":530.14,"end":558.639,"text":"你要不要補充?欸,梁局長,莊局長你知道部分他們利率大概多少?然後他們為什麼能夠得到這麼高的治理評鑑?報告委員,因為對銀行而言他們覺得他從5P的原則來去審核的時候覺得這些租賃公司單純從5P來看的時候這些租賃公司算是尤其是三大我看你還是回去把我那資料列舉給我好了啦,好不好?"},{"start":559.779,"end":587.957,"text":"謝謝接下來那個主委我再跟您說明一下從這個財報的內容當中我還意外發現這個融資租用公司的利息在中國的收入居然高達台灣的25倍在中國高達258.85億在整個國營這一個販款逐漸下跌到25%的情況底下可是我們卻把這個融資公司的資金拼命地往中國跑"},{"start":588.865,"end":596.248,"text":"委員這個要看他的資金的來源您的問題我們有瞭解過就是這三家上市的主任公司他在大陸的經營從國內的因為國內如果要投資到海外其實都要透過投審會一定金額是核准一定金額是備查"},{"start":617.136,"end":639.429,"text":"那基本上我們看到平均由國內資金挹注到大陸的金額比例不高很多都是從大陸當地的金融機構去借款的那這部分就跟台灣沒有什麼有一點類似沒有系統風險太大的問題但是估計起來你去查看看這個風險金額大概可以多少因為我從財報當中完全看不出來因為目前中國大陸當中目前的這個地產風暴的問題非常的嚴重是"},{"start":642.971,"end":647.635,"text":"我跟您報告其實臺灣的金融體系提供給這些租賃公司轉到大陸大概只有臺幣200億其實不多所以我跟您報告大部分是在當地就地"},{"start":671.618,"end":671.638,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":693.001,"end":722.353,"text":"他那邊的費用可能比較高我覺得我們要去研究一下麻煩你研究一下我最後跟你講一下因為同樣是以你的業管的部分底下的代辦行為是禁止的對於銀行的部分是禁止的可是上市上櫃底下也是你業管的部分的融資公司能有代辦的業者的行為實在是令人非常誇張連機車就可以代到500萬這個部分也請你注意一下好不好"},{"start":722.984,"end":731.939,"text":"我們已經注意到要注意long to value不能夠只是用營收貸款收買的方式去處理這部分會納入好那就麻煩主委費心了謝謝主委謝謝部長謝謝"}]}}}}