{"id":151242,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151242","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627aa466fc5da218c4e0915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c94a44382e63844f4285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:25:48 - 10:38:54","影片長度":"00:13:06","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":786,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:38:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:25:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":387,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（10時26分）謝謝召委，也請潘部長。"],["主席：部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：部長，你好。首先我為原住民的國教感謝你，因為我跟立法院的前輩在討論的時候，知道您在這個部分的背景，對於原住民在國教的區塊，目前有一些往前走的成果，後續高教的部分，我也期待我們能夠像先前一樣繼續地把它連結起來，一直到整個終身學習。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來，因為今天討論的主題是針對這30年教育的狀況。先請教部長，這30年教育改革的推動，就您個人而言，如果要跟社會整體來討論這30年來最正面的價值，您會怎麼樣來談這30年的教改？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，其實410教改的倡議是因應當時的時空背景，委員也知道，臺灣在早期有相當長時間的戒嚴，所以很多方面是受到一些比較嚴格的規範，包含教育，410之所以有這樣的倡議，是希望能夠有更多鬆綁，然後慢慢回到孩子、學生是一個很重要的學習主體，當然委員也瞭解，教育的本質一直在強調應該要瞭解學生的個別差異、適性發展，這個概念走下來，可以看到臺灣的教育更加多元、活潑，包含剛剛委員提醒的，實驗教育也是為了讓家長有選擇，因為不一定每個家長對孩子的選擇都一樣，所以像實驗教育三法的通過也是用這樣的基礎，讓很多也許不太習慣體制內學校的孩子有其他選擇。我是舉例說明，我想這樣的概念都可以看得出來，越來越能夠讓臺灣的教育朝向多元、適性發展的機會，這個是可以看到的，當然現代化也有很大的進展。"],["林委員倩綺：所以就是以學生為主體，能夠有多元的發展。"],["潘部長文忠：是，我想不只410，這個應該是一個教育不變的準則，本來每個孩子就有各種不同的潛能、興趣，如果透過一個比較標準化製造出同樣的產品，這個大概不是410，臺灣的教育也不應該這樣發展，包含這幾年我一直都秉持著應該要調整體制，讓孩子多有機會，而不是用唯一的篩選標準，讓學生覺得反正就是用這套標準，你的能力在這方面，你就在這方面；不能……","所以我要跟委員報告，單一標準很嚴格的篩選，其實是製造了非常多學習的挫敗者，因為不是每個孩子對課業都有興趣……"],["林委員倩綺：也就是在對學習者的主體，然後讓他有一個多元的選擇，應該是您對於教改這個區塊在這幾年實行下來比較正面的價值。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["林委員倩綺：但是在配合這個的過程當中，或許有一些未竟之處，這也是我們今天要探討的一個主題，我們知道少子女化大概是這幾十年來一直在談的問題，依據你們的資料，大概90年，然後過了千禧年之後，一直到今天，整個出生率成為學校在招生過程當中很重要的準則，但少子女化應該是我們很早就預期到的，早上我也聽到您說，可能在千禧年的時候就發現這個問題還蠻大的，但是那之後也因為廣設大學，當時應該有一些討論，也導致今天變成有一些大學要退場。","在這邊我想要探討的是，當時410教改的訴求有簡報上這幾項，剛才我有聽到柯委員說廣設高中大學跟人口取向有矛盾之處，其實就我而言，我也覺得是有點矛盾啦！我就提出其中一點，你們那時候主張的小班小校，本來是規定在專科以上學校維護學生受教權益應行注意事項裡面，結果你們所規定出來的東西好像跟小班小校有一點衝突，如果你們期待能提升某些師生比，但是我們又不懂為什麼低於這些人數就不行？明明主張小班小校，卻又不准低於某些人數，請問學生的受教權跟你們的邏輯在哪裡？這就有點像明明是少子化，但是又廣設高中大學，這樣現在會碰到問題絕對是必然的，所以這就是我們目前在討論的狀況，過去的就已經過去了，但我們要討論的是，現在的狀況是什麼？未來我們該怎麼處理？","我們一直很關心私立高級中等以上學校退場條例，接下來簡稱退場條例好了，因為這幾年的少子女化跟廣設大學其實是連在一起的。前幾年你們訂定了很嚴苛的退場條例，近幾年已經有幾所學校受到了影響，在退場條例裡面，很重要的就是第六條。我們在學界常常都說你們「輔導即輔倒」，只要進入你們的專案輔導，大概就真的只有倒了。為什麼會有這個原因？其實裡面有好幾個細項我們應該來討論，比如說，董事會的結構、老師的轉業以及學生的權益，這是在退場條例裡面最重要的三個主體，而現在碰到的實際狀況是，你們在第六條裡面規定有這些情事，你們可能就會預警，要介入所謂的退場。","另外，你們有一些停辦實施原則，有些東西我們也很好奇，像學生不滿多少人或是新生註冊率低於六成，就一定跟辦學不好有直接的連帶嗎？我們不太清楚。註冊率不佳未必跟教學品質不好有直接關係，但你們所訂定的量化標準，有的時候在質化的部分反倒是產生一個矛盾的現象。為什麼不能在這個部分有一些其他的可能性？比如說，推廣教育或是開設遠距課程，因為這個原因不見得就是品質不好，也有可能是因為地域的關係，所以這個部分可不可以請部裡面再去討論跟瞭解……"],["潘部長文忠：委員，不好意思，我跟你打岔一下。剛才委員提到的這兩個，之前就有一些規範，因為我們認為在執行上不是那麼合適，所以剛剛講的三千人其實已經取消了，因為我們也覺得有些學校就是走精緻、比較規模的……"],["林委員倩綺：它或許是精緻化，然後非常優質化……"],["潘部長文忠：對，所以這個已經不存在。至於剛才講的註冊率不佳，也不是專輔的條件，之前在推動的過程當中，也得到學校的一些反應，如果它是合理的要往這樣的方向去規劃，但以這樣的方式就被列入專輔，我們認為反而是一個限制啦！"],["林委員倩綺：對，所以其實部裡面……"],["潘部長文忠：剛才委員提到的這兩點，我跟委員報告，我們也一直在強調，教育本來就是要不斷的瞭解現場去修正……"],["林委員倩綺：就像你剛才講的多元，然後跟現場……"],["潘部長文忠：對，我跟委員補充，剛才那兩個已經修正了，不會以這個為條件。"],["林委員倩綺：好的。另外，這個制度的設計讓我們覺得教育部的作法好像只是要止損，而不是要讓學校起死回生，這個部分會關係到我待會要講的東西，就是我們想要瞭解部裡面對於這30年來在現在所碰到的問題，跟未來我們到底要怎麼走向，我覺得現在討論會比較有點正面的效益。這個制度讓一些學校感覺到你們好像在防賊，寧願不准，好像它如果變得不好，你是寧願不准，到最後它只能退場。其實私校的轉型也是部裡面一個很重要的責任，有關董事會的部分，如果進入了專輔，你們就會指定董事，可是公益董事跟整個董事及這個學校可能沒有關係，到最後他們就會依照你們的準則輔導學校，導致一個結果就是專案輔導的學校真的就倒了。非專案輔導的學校，就像今天萬委員提到的大漢技術學院，他們預期會有這種現象，乾脆就自己先倒，董事會能夠拿的東西就趕快拿，因為你們的規定嚴苛，會影響到三個群體，一個是董事會，他要辦學，當然他可能有辦學的心，但也必須要相當的利潤；再來是學生，學生的部分應該要原校原系，像剛才柯委員提到的，被轉了一個學校，然後轉的那個學校也是搖搖欲墜，或者有些就倒了，然後再轉第二次，學生能真正完成學業嗎？其實也很難。還有你們的政策我也看不太懂，就是很多學校已經都沒有生源了，結果國立大學還一直不斷擴編科系增加名額，就這一點我想請問，我們未來的路線究竟是要國家化，還是要自由競爭市場？也就是要嘛像歐洲的公共化，要不然就像美國的自由競爭市場，那你們就不要去卡私立學校，它可以很優質化，像現在很多高中以下的私立學校是家長會讓學生去的地方，可是你們又好像不是要做到公共化，你增加了國立大學的名額，然後私校當然以後就一定會消失，所以我不知道你到底是要往公共化的方向走，還是就自由競爭？就是不要限制私立學校的學費，也不要限制私立學校的某一些東西，就自由競爭市場，讓私立學校跟公立學校一起競爭，那也不盡然就會是現在這樣的排名，所以可不可以讓我們知道中華民國的高教，究竟要何去何從？因為現在是一個關鍵點。"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝……"],["林委員倩綺：好，部長，不好意思，最後我再為我們原住民學生發一個聲。感謝部長，您有跟我提到原住民的部分可以從產攜合作計畫2.0去投入，但是我把國際專班跟產攜合作兩個拉出來，光每一個月的津貼就有差異，產攜合作當然不是只有原住民，但為什麼臺灣的學生拿的一定比國際學生少？為什麼國際學生最後都是在臺灣很重要的高等工業和科技，而產攜合作的學生，可能要做黑手跟藍領？這個部分是不是可以請部裡面再整合討論一下，好嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：是，這個我簡單補充一下就好了。剛才談到私校董事會的部分，因為過去我們也看過有董事會是瞬間拍拍走人，把師生留給政府、留給他們自己解決，所以為什麼要再加入其他董事，就是當他列為專輔時，需要有一些跟這個有關的老師或學生代表成為公益董事，我想委員應該也可以瞭解，因為他們是生命共同體。第二個，針對臺灣高教招生的部分我也跟委員報告，目前各行各業都缺，教育部的政策是比較希望公私一起努力，不會只是由公立增加招生名額，比如資通訊名額，一開始確實很多業界都希望是國立大學，我們告訴他很多私立大學的科系也辦得很優秀，所以已經把這個部分有比較衡平的處理。另外有關產攜部分，詳細的資料再給委員補充說明，因為背景不太一樣。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝部長，我們就繼續一起努力，也祝福你。謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，接下來請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"151242","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151242","tool":"pyannote","id":"151242-pyannote"},"j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\"start\": 758.142, \"end\": 758.162, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,028 --> 00:00:09,357\n我們也順便報告我們在第9位羅廷文委員質詢完畢之後我們就休息5分鐘謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:19,822 --> 00:00:33,079\n委員好部長你好首先我為原住民的這個國教這邊感謝你因為我跟立法院的前輩在討論的時候那因為您在這個部分的一個背景對原住民在國教的這個區塊那目前我們有一些往前走的一個\n\n3\n00:00:38,726 --> 00:00:41,108\n接下來因為今天討論的主題就這30年教育的一個狀況\n\n4\n00:00:58,641 --> 00:01:12,918\n那我想先請教部長那這30年的這個教育的改革推動部長這邊如果就您個人而言我們如果要跟社會整體來討論這樣這30年來最正面的一個價值您會怎麼樣來談這30年的一個教改\n\n5\n00:01:18,945 --> 00:01:21,687\n410教改的倡議是因應當時的時空背景那是台灣在早期有相當長時間的戒嚴即使在很多的\n\n6\n00:01:34,714 --> 00:02:02,677\n是受到一些比較嚴格的規範包含教育那410之所以這樣的倡議比較希望能夠有更多鬆綁然後慢慢回到孩子學生是一個很重要的一個學習主體當然委員也了解這個教育的本質一直在強調那種應該要讓學生個別差異適性發展這個概念即使走下來410在這方面也看到台灣的教育其實更加的多元活潑包含剛才委員在提醒\n\n7\n00:02:03,417 --> 00:02:23,916\n實驗教育也是因為讓家長有一個選擇因為不一定每個家長對孩子的選擇都一樣所以像實驗教育三法的通過也是用這樣的一個基礎讓很多孩子也許不太習慣在我們體制內的學校但這樣的概念我想都可以我是舉例說明可以看得出來\n\n8\n00:02:24,557 --> 00:02:25,138\n所以就是以學生為主體．我想這個應該是\n\n9\n00:02:42,597 --> 00:02:54,627\n這應該是一個教育不變的然後你怎麼可能把所有的孩子本來就有各種不同的潛能興趣然後透過一個比較標準化製造出同樣的產品這個大概不是410台灣的教育也應該這樣的發展包含這幾年我一直都秉持真的應該讓體制調整來讓孩子多有機會而不是用唯一的篩選標準\n\n10\n00:03:05,797 --> 00:03:07,459\n所以我要跟委員報告很嚴格的篩選單一的標準其實是製造了非常多學習的挫敗者因為不是每個孩子都對科學有興趣\n\n11\n00:03:25,261 --> 00:03:30,925\n對學習者的主體然後讓他有一個多元的選擇應該是能對教改這個區塊這幾年實行的一個比較正面的一個價值但是在配合這樣一個過程當中或許有一些未盡之處所以我想這是我們今天探討一個主題\n\n12\n00:03:45,756 --> 00:03:46,456\n〈小子女化問題〉\n\n13\n00:04:03,402 --> 00:04:14,651\n的過程當中一個很重要的準則所以那但是少子女化應該是我們很早就預期到早上我也聽到您說可能在千禧年的時候那發現這個問題還蠻大的但是那之後呢因為也廣設大學而一直導致當時當然應該有一些討論而導致今天呢變成有一些大學要退場\n\n14\n00:04:26,020 --> 00:04:46,649\n在這邊我想要探討的是當時410的這個教改的訴求有這幾項那剛才我有聽到委員說這個我們科學委員說這個廣設高中大學跟這個人口的取向其實就我而言我也覺得是有點矛盾那但是我就提出其中一點那你們在那個時候主張的小班小校\n\n15\n00:04:47,890 --> 00:05:04,280\n倒是在你們專科以上學校維護學生授教權益應該注意的這個事項辦法裡面呢那結果你們所規定出來的東西好像跟這個小班小校是有一點衝突所以如果你們期待有某一些師生餅\n\n16\n00:05:05,100 --> 00:05:24,471\n但是我們又不懂為什麼低於這一些人數那就不行小班小校然後又不准我們低於某一些人數那這個學生的受教權跟邏輯在哪裡就有點像明明在少子化但是我們又廣設高中大學那這樣似乎我們不知道說那現在會碰到問題是絕對必然的嗎\n\n17\n00:05:26,132 --> 00:05:52,888\n所以這是我們現在今年在討論目前的這個狀況那過去的已經過去了我們可能要討論的是現在的狀況是什麼那未來我們怎麼處理那我們一直很關心的這個就是私立高級中等學校的一個退場條例那我們接下來簡稱退場條例好了因為這幾年的這個少子女化然後跟廣設大學其實是連在一起的\n\n18\n00:05:55,050 --> 00:06:14,965\n前幾年你們訂定了這個很嚴苛的這個退場條例那近幾年已經有幾個學校已經受到了這個影響那你們在退場條例裡面大概很重要的就是在這個第6條這邊有提到有一些學校我們在那個學界常常都說你們輔導就即輔導只要是進入你們的這個專案輔導大概就真的只有導了\n\n19\n00:06:19,468 --> 00:06:23,092\n為什麼會有這個原因其實裡面有好幾個那個細項我們應該來討論比如說董事會的一個結構老師的這個轉業還有學生的權益那這是在退場條例裡面最重要的三個主體\n\n20\n00:06:36,223 --> 00:07:01,001\n現在碰到了一個實際的狀況就是你們在第6條裡面規定有這些情勢那你們可能就會預警也會要介入這所謂的退場那我們再往下看那另外還有你們一些停辦的一些實施原則那有些東西我們也就很好奇說那學生不滿多少人或者是新生註冊率低於六成這個一定跟辦學不好有直接的連帶嗎我們不太清楚註冊率不佳\n\n21\n00:07:03,343 --> 00:07:07,107\n在這個部分有一些其他的可能性比如說推廣教育或者是開設遠距離的課程因為這個原因不見得就是品質不好也有可能是因為地域的關係\n\n22\n00:07:26,167 --> 00:07:32,089\n所以這個部分是可不可以請那個部理念再去做一個那個討論跟了解剛才委員提到這兩個之前就是有一些規範我們認為在質詢上是不是那麼合適啦所以剛才講那個什麼3000人這個其實已經取消\n\n23\n00:07:41,713 --> 00:07:49,860\n因為我們也覺得說有些學校就走精緻﹑比較規模的﹑它或許是精緻化﹑然後﹑對﹑對﹑對﹑所以這個已經不存在﹑非常優質化﹑對﹑對﹑對當然講那個注冊力不佳﹑這個也不是專府的條件這個就是之前可能在推動的過程當中﹑也得到學校的一些反應因為它是合理的要往這樣的方向去做規劃如果以這樣的方式就被類專府﹑就我們認為反而是一個限制\n\n24\n00:08:07,335 --> 00:08:09,557\n我跟委員提到這兩點我跟我報告在我們也經過一直在強調一個教育本來就是要不斷的去了解現場去做修正然後跟現場我跟委員補充這兩個已經做修正不會以這個為條件\n\n25\n00:08:26,153 --> 00:08:45,105\n教育部的一個做法好像只要止損而不是讓學校起死回生那這個部分會關係到我待會要講的東西就是說我們想要了解現在部裡面對於這30年來在現在所碰到的問題跟未來我們到底要什麼走向這個是我覺得現在討論會比較有點正面的效益\n\n26\n00:08:47,326 --> 00:09:10,035\n讓一些學校感覺到你們好像在防賊那那個情願不准好像他如果變得不好那你是情願不准到最後他只能退場那其實私校的一個轉型也是部裡面有很重要的責任那你們是不是應該其實董事會的部分我們知道其實你們都會等於是他如果進入了這個專府那你們就會指定董事那可是這個\n\n27\n00:09:10,755 --> 00:09:10,955\n主席\n\n28\n00:09:27,916 --> 00:09:41,311\n外委員也講到就是大漢技術學院那他乾脆他預期有這種現象那我乾脆自己先倒那我董事會能夠拿的東西那我就趕快拿那因為你們的規定嚴苛那影響到三個群體一個是董事會\n\n29\n00:09:42,792 --> 00:10:06,038\n他要辦學當然他可能有辦學的心那他當然相當的利潤他也必須要的然後再來是學生那學生的部分那他應該要有學校原地像剛才科委員這邊也提到被轉了一個學校然後那個轉了之後呢這個學校也是搖搖欲墜或者有些就倒了他再轉了第二次他能夠真正完成其實也很難所以那\n\n30\n00:10:09,059 --> 00:10:34,434\n還有你們的那個政策我也看不太懂就是已經很多學校都沒有生源了結果國立大學也一直不斷擴編科系跟增加員額那這一點我就想要問所以我們未來的路線究竟是要國家化還是要像自由競爭市場也就是要嘛我們像歐洲的公共化要不然就像美國的自由競爭市場你們就不要去卡私立學校它可以很優質化\n\n31\n00:10:35,755 --> 00:10:36,856\n但我們不知道你到底是往公共化的方向走\n\n32\n00:10:53,644 --> 00:11:16,575\n那還是那OK我就自由競爭那我也不要去限制你學費私立學校學費我也不要去限制你私立學校的某一些東西那我們就自由競爭市場那我們私立學校跟公立學校一起來競爭那也不盡然會是現在的這樣子的排名所以可不可以讓我們知道中華民國的高教究竟你們要何去何從現在是一個關鍵點\n\n33\n00:11:18,511 --> 00:11:22,474\n最後我再為我們原住民學生發一個聲號不好意思那個感謝部長您有跟我講原住民的這個部分我們可以從這個產西合作的這個2.0去投入但是我們光把這兩個國際專班跟產西合作光是每一個月的今天拉出來\n\n34\n00:11:38,285 --> 00:11:38,845\n主席主席主席\n\n35\n00:12:02,372 --> 00:12:19,966\n委員這個我簡單補充一下就好了剛才談到對於私校董事會的這部分因為我們也看過也有董事會即使瞬間拍拍走人私生留給政府留給他們去所以為什麼要再加入當他列為專府\n\n36\n00:12:20,706 --> 00:12:37,262\n需要有一些跟這個有關的老師或學生代表成為公益董事我想委員可以了解因為他們是生命共同體那第二個委員針對臺灣的高教環環招生這部分我也跟委員報告各行各業都缺目前教育部的政策也比較希望\n\n37\n00:12:37,782 --> 00:12:38,162\n謝謝部長我們繼續一起努力那祝福你好謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4028\t9357\t我們也順便報告我們在第9位羅廷文委員質詢完畢之後我們就休息5分鐘謝謝\n19822\t33079\t委員好部長你好首先我為原住民的這個國教這邊感謝你因為我跟立法院的前輩在討論的時候那因為您在這個部分的一個背景對原住民在國教的這個區塊那目前我們有一些往前走的一個\n38726\t41108\t接下來因為今天討論的主題就這30年教育的一個狀況\n58641\t72918\t那我想先請教部長那這30年的這個教育的改革推動部長這邊如果就您個人而言我們如果要跟社會整體來討論這樣這30年來最正面的一個價值您會怎麼樣來談這30年的一個教改\n78945\t81687\t410教改的倡議是因應當時的時空背景那是台灣在早期有相當長時間的戒嚴即使在很多的\n94714\t122677\t是受到一些比較嚴格的規範包含教育那410之所以這樣的倡議比較希望能夠有更多鬆綁然後慢慢回到孩子學生是一個很重要的一個學習主體當然委員也了解這個教育的本質一直在強調那種應該要讓學生個別差異適性發展這個概念即使走下來410在這方面也看到台灣的教育其實更加的多元活潑包含剛才委員在提醒\n123417\t143916\t實驗教育也是因為讓家長有一個選擇因為不一定每個家長對孩子的選擇都一樣所以像實驗教育三法的通過也是用這樣的一個基礎讓很多孩子也許不太習慣在我們體制內的學校但這樣的概念我想都可以我是舉例說明可以看得出來\n144557\t145138\t所以就是以學生為主體．我想這個應該是\n162597\t174627\t這應該是一個教育不變的然後你怎麼可能把所有的孩子本來就有各種不同的潛能興趣然後透過一個比較標準化製造出同樣的產品這個大概不是410台灣的教育也應該這樣的發展包含這幾年我一直都秉持真的應該讓體制調整來讓孩子多有機會而不是用唯一的篩選標準\n185797\t187459\t所以我要跟委員報告很嚴格的篩選單一的標準其實是製造了非常多學習的挫敗者因為不是每個孩子都對科學有興趣\n205261\t210925\t對學習者的主體然後讓他有一個多元的選擇應該是能對教改這個區塊這幾年實行的一個比較正面的一個價值但是在配合這樣一個過程當中或許有一些未盡之處所以我想這是我們今天探討一個主題\n225756\t226456\t〈小子女化問題〉\n243402\t254651\t的過程當中一個很重要的準則所以那但是少子女化應該是我們很早就預期到早上我也聽到您說可能在千禧年的時候那發現這個問題還蠻大的但是那之後呢因為也廣設大學而一直導致當時當然應該有一些討論而導致今天呢變成有一些大學要退場\n266020\t286649\t在這邊我想要探討的是當時410的這個教改的訴求有這幾項那剛才我有聽到委員說這個我們科學委員說這個廣設高中大學跟這個人口的取向其實就我而言我也覺得是有點矛盾那但是我就提出其中一點那你們在那個時候主張的小班小校\n287890\t304280\t倒是在你們專科以上學校維護學生授教權益應該注意的這個事項辦法裡面呢那結果你們所規定出來的東西好像跟這個小班小校是有一點衝突所以如果你們期待有某一些師生餅\n305100\t324471\t但是我們又不懂為什麼低於這一些人數那就不行小班小校然後又不准我們低於某一些人數那這個學生的受教權跟邏輯在哪裡就有點像明明在少子化但是我們又廣設高中大學那這樣似乎我們不知道說那現在會碰到問題是絕對必然的嗎\n326132\t352888\t所以這是我們現在今年在討論目前的這個狀況那過去的已經過去了我們可能要討論的是現在的狀況是什麼那未來我們怎麼處理那我們一直很關心的這個就是私立高級中等學校的一個退場條例那我們接下來簡稱退場條例好了因為這幾年的這個少子女化然後跟廣設大學其實是連在一起的\n355050\t374965\t前幾年你們訂定了這個很嚴苛的這個退場條例那近幾年已經有幾個學校已經受到了這個影響那你們在退場條例裡面大概很重要的就是在這個第6條這邊有提到有一些學校我們在那個學界常常都說你們輔導就即輔導只要是進入你們的這個專案輔導大概就真的只有導了\n379468\t383092\t為什麼會有這個原因其實裡面有好幾個那個細項我們應該來討論比如說董事會的一個結構老師的這個轉業還有學生的權益那這是在退場條例裡面最重要的三個主體\n396223\t421001\t現在碰到了一個實際的狀況就是你們在第6條裡面規定有這些情勢那你們可能就會預警也會要介入這所謂的退場那我們再往下看那另外還有你們一些停辦的一些實施原則那有些東西我們也就很好奇說那學生不滿多少人或者是新生註冊率低於六成這個一定跟辦學不好有直接的連帶嗎我們不太清楚註冊率不佳\n423343\t427107\t在這個部分有一些其他的可能性比如說推廣教育或者是開設遠距離的課程因為這個原因不見得就是品質不好也有可能是因為地域的關係\n446167\t452089\t所以這個部分是可不可以請那個部理念再去做一個那個討論跟了解剛才委員提到這兩個之前就是有一些規範我們認為在質詢上是不是那麼合適啦所以剛才講那個什麼3000人這個其實已經取消\n461713\t469860\t因為我們也覺得說有些學校就走精緻﹑比較規模的﹑它或許是精緻化﹑然後﹑對﹑對﹑對﹑所以這個已經不存在﹑非常優質化﹑對﹑對﹑對當然講那個注冊力不佳﹑這個也不是專府的條件這個就是之前可能在推動的過程當中﹑也得到學校的一些反應因為它是合理的要往這樣的方向去做規劃如果以這樣的方式就被類專府﹑就我們認為反而是一個限制\n487335\t489557\t我跟委員提到這兩點我跟我報告在我們也經過一直在強調一個教育本來就是要不斷的去了解現場去做修正然後跟現場我跟委員補充這兩個已經做修正不會以這個為條件\n506153\t525105\t教育部的一個做法好像只要止損而不是讓學校起死回生那這個部分會關係到我待會要講的東西就是說我們想要了解現在部裡面對於這30年來在現在所碰到的問題跟未來我們到底要什麼走向這個是我覺得現在討論會比較有點正面的效益\n527326\t550035\t讓一些學校感覺到你們好像在防賊那那個情願不准好像他如果變得不好那你是情願不准到最後他只能退場那其實私校的一個轉型也是部裡面有很重要的責任那你們是不是應該其實董事會的部分我們知道其實你們都會等於是他如果進入了這個專府那你們就會指定董事那可是這個\n550755\t550955\t主席\n567916\t581311\t外委員也講到就是大漢技術學院那他乾脆他預期有這種現象那我乾脆自己先倒那我董事會能夠拿的東西那我就趕快拿那因為你們的規定嚴苛那影響到三個群體一個是董事會\n582792\t606038\t他要辦學當然他可能有辦學的心那他當然相當的利潤他也必須要的然後再來是學生那學生的部分那他應該要有學校原地像剛才科委員這邊也提到被轉了一個學校然後那個轉了之後呢這個學校也是搖搖欲墜或者有些就倒了他再轉了第二次他能夠真正完成其實也很難所以那\n609059\t634434\t還有你們的那個政策我也看不太懂就是已經很多學校都沒有生源了結果國立大學也一直不斷擴編科系跟增加員額那這一點我就想要問所以我們未來的路線究竟是要國家化還是要像自由競爭市場也就是要嘛我們像歐洲的公共化要不然就像美國的自由競爭市場你們就不要去卡私立學校它可以很優質化\n635755\t636856\t但我們不知道你到底是往公共化的方向走\n653644\t676575\t那還是那OK我就自由競爭那我也不要去限制你學費私立學校學費我也不要去限制你私立學校的某一些東西那我們就自由競爭市場那我們私立學校跟公立學校一起來競爭那也不盡然會是現在的這樣子的排名所以可不可以讓我們知道中華民國的高教究竟你們要何去何從現在是一個關鍵點\n678511\t682474\t最後我再為我們原住民學生發一個聲號不好意思那個感謝部長您有跟我講原住民的這個部分我們可以從這個產西合作的這個2.0去投入但是我們光把這兩個國際專班跟產西合作光是每一個月的今天拉出來\n698285\t698845\t主席主席主席\n722372\t739966\t委員這個我簡單補充一下就好了剛才談到對於私校董事會的這部分因為我們也看過也有董事會即使瞬間拍拍走人私生留給政府留給他們去所以為什麼要再加入當他列為專府\n740706\t757262\t需要有一些跟這個有關的老師或學生代表成為公益董事我想委員可以了解因為他們是生命共同體那第二個委員針對臺灣的高教環環招生這部分我也跟委員報告各行各業都缺目前教育部的政策也比較希望\n757782\t758162\t謝謝部長 我們繼續一起努力 那祝福你好 謝謝委員 謝謝\n","txt":"我們也順便報告我們在第9位羅廷文委員質詢完畢之後我們就休息5分鐘謝謝\n委員好部長你好首先我為原住民的這個國教這邊感謝你因為我跟立法院的前輩在討論的時候那因為您在這個部分的一個背景對原住民在國教的這個區塊那目前我們有一些往前走的一個\n接下來因為今天討論的主題就這30年教育的一個狀況\n那我想先請教部長那這30年的這個教育的改革推動部長這邊如果就您個人而言我們如果要跟社會整體來討論這樣這30年來最正面的一個價值您會怎麼樣來談這30年的一個教改\n410教改的倡議是因應當時的時空背景那是台灣在早期有相當長時間的戒嚴即使在很多的\n是受到一些比較嚴格的規範包含教育那410之所以這樣的倡議比較希望能夠有更多鬆綁然後慢慢回到孩子學生是一個很重要的一個學習主體當然委員也了解這個教育的本質一直在強調那種應該要讓學生個別差異適性發展這個概念即使走下來410在這方面也看到台灣的教育其實更加的多元活潑包含剛才委員在提醒\n實驗教育也是因為讓家長有一個選擇因為不一定每個家長對孩子的選擇都一樣所以像實驗教育三法的通過也是用這樣的一個基礎讓很多孩子也許不太習慣在我們體制內的學校但這樣的概念我想都可以我是舉例說明可以看得出來\n所以就是以學生為主體．我想這個應該是\n這應該是一個教育不變的然後你怎麼可能把所有的孩子本來就有各種不同的潛能興趣然後透過一個比較標準化製造出同樣的產品這個大概不是410台灣的教育也應該這樣的發展包含這幾年我一直都秉持真的應該讓體制調整來讓孩子多有機會而不是用唯一的篩選標準\n所以我要跟委員報告很嚴格的篩選單一的標準其實是製造了非常多學習的挫敗者因為不是每個孩子都對科學有興趣\n對學習者的主體然後讓他有一個多元的選擇應該是能對教改這個區塊這幾年實行的一個比較正面的一個價值但是在配合這樣一個過程當中或許有一些未盡之處所以我想這是我們今天探討一個主題\n〈小子女化問題〉\n的過程當中一個很重要的準則所以那但是少子女化應該是我們很早就預期到早上我也聽到您說可能在千禧年的時候那發現這個問題還蠻大的但是那之後呢因為也廣設大學而一直導致當時當然應該有一些討論而導致今天呢變成有一些大學要退場\n在這邊我想要探討的是當時410的這個教改的訴求有這幾項那剛才我有聽到委員說這個我們科學委員說這個廣設高中大學跟這個人口的取向其實就我而言我也覺得是有點矛盾那但是我就提出其中一點那你們在那個時候主張的小班小校\n倒是在你們專科以上學校維護學生授教權益應該注意的這個事項辦法裡面呢那結果你們所規定出來的東西好像跟這個小班小校是有一點衝突所以如果你們期待有某一些師生餅\n但是我們又不懂為什麼低於這一些人數那就不行小班小校然後又不准我們低於某一些人數那這個學生的受教權跟邏輯在哪裡就有點像明明在少子化但是我們又廣設高中大學那這樣似乎我們不知道說那現在會碰到問題是絕對必然的嗎\n所以這是我們現在今年在討論目前的這個狀況那過去的已經過去了我們可能要討論的是現在的狀況是什麼那未來我們怎麼處理那我們一直很關心的這個就是私立高級中等學校的一個退場條例那我們接下來簡稱退場條例好了因為這幾年的這個少子女化然後跟廣設大學其實是連在一起的\n前幾年你們訂定了這個很嚴苛的這個退場條例那近幾年已經有幾個學校已經受到了這個影響那你們在退場條例裡面大概很重要的就是在這個第6條這邊有提到有一些學校我們在那個學界常常都說你們輔導就即輔導只要是進入你們的這個專案輔導大概就真的只有導了\n為什麼會有這個原因其實裡面有好幾個那個細項我們應該來討論比如說董事會的一個結構老師的這個轉業還有學生的權益那這是在退場條例裡面最重要的三個主體\n現在碰到了一個實際的狀況就是你們在第6條裡面規定有這些情勢那你們可能就會預警也會要介入這所謂的退場那我們再往下看那另外還有你們一些停辦的一些實施原則那有些東西我們也就很好奇說那學生不滿多少人或者是新生註冊率低於六成這個一定跟辦學不好有直接的連帶嗎我們不太清楚註冊率不佳\n在這個部分有一些其他的可能性比如說推廣教育或者是開設遠距離的課程因為這個原因不見得就是品質不好也有可能是因為地域的關係\n所以這個部分是可不可以請那個部理念再去做一個那個討論跟了解剛才委員提到這兩個之前就是有一些規範我們認為在質詢上是不是那麼合適啦所以剛才講那個什麼3000人這個其實已經取消\n因為我們也覺得說有些學校就走精緻﹑比較規模的﹑它或許是精緻化﹑然後﹑對﹑對﹑對﹑所以這個已經不存在﹑非常優質化﹑對﹑對﹑對當然講那個注冊力不佳﹑這個也不是專府的條件這個就是之前可能在推動的過程當中﹑也得到學校的一些反應因為它是合理的要往這樣的方向去做規劃如果以這樣的方式就被類專府﹑就我們認為反而是一個限制\n我跟委員提到這兩點我跟我報告在我們也經過一直在強調一個教育本來就是要不斷的去了解現場去做修正然後跟現場我跟委員補充這兩個已經做修正不會以這個為條件\n教育部的一個做法好像只要止損而不是讓學校起死回生那這個部分會關係到我待會要講的東西就是說我們想要了解現在部裡面對於這30年來在現在所碰到的問題跟未來我們到底要什麼走向這個是我覺得現在討論會比較有點正面的效益\n讓一些學校感覺到你們好像在防賊那那個情願不准好像他如果變得不好那你是情願不准到最後他只能退場那其實私校的一個轉型也是部裡面有很重要的責任那你們是不是應該其實董事會的部分我們知道其實你們都會等於是他如果進入了這個專府那你們就會指定董事那可是這個\n主席\n外委員也講到就是大漢技術學院那他乾脆他預期有這種現象那我乾脆自己先倒那我董事會能夠拿的東西那我就趕快拿那因為你們的規定嚴苛那影響到三個群體一個是董事會\n他要辦學當然他可能有辦學的心那他當然相當的利潤他也必須要的然後再來是學生那學生的部分那他應該要有學校原地像剛才科委員這邊也提到被轉了一個學校然後那個轉了之後呢這個學校也是搖搖欲墜或者有些就倒了他再轉了第二次他能夠真正完成其實也很難所以那\n還有你們的那個政策我也看不太懂就是已經很多學校都沒有生源了結果國立大學也一直不斷擴編科系跟增加員額那這一點我就想要問所以我們未來的路線究竟是要國家化還是要像自由競爭市場也就是要嘛我們像歐洲的公共化要不然就像美國的自由競爭市場你們就不要去卡私立學校它可以很優質化\n但我們不知道你到底是往公共化的方向走\n那還是那OK我就自由競爭那我也不要去限制你學費私立學校學費我也不要去限制你私立學校的某一些東西那我們就自由競爭市場那我們私立學校跟公立學校一起來競爭那也不盡然會是現在的這樣子的排名所以可不可以讓我們知道中華民國的高教究竟你們要何去何從現在是一個關鍵點\n最後我再為我們原住民學生發一個聲號不好意思那個感謝部長您有跟我講原住民的這個部分我們可以從這個產西合作的這個2.0去投入但是我們光把這兩個國際專班跟產西合作光是每一個月的今天拉出來\n主席主席主席\n委員這個我簡單補充一下就好了剛才談到對於私校董事會的這部分因為我們也看過也有董事會即使瞬間拍拍走人私生留給政府留給他們去所以為什麼要再加入當他列為專府\n需要有一些跟這個有關的老師或學生代表成為公益董事我想委員可以了解因為他們是生命共同體那第二個委員針對臺灣的高教環環招生這部分我也跟委員報告各行各業都缺目前教育部的政策也比較希望\n謝謝部長 我們繼續一起努力 那祝福你好 謝謝委員 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.028 --> 00:09.357\n我們也順便報告我們在第9位羅廷文委員質詢完畢之後我們就休息5分鐘謝謝\n\n00:19.822 --> 00:33.079\n委員好部長你好首先我為原住民的這個國教這邊感謝你因為我跟立法院的前輩在討論的時候那因為您在這個部分的一個背景對原住民在國教的這個區塊那目前我們有一些往前走的一個\n\n00:38.726 --> 00:41.108\n接下來因為今天討論的主題就這30年教育的一個狀況\n\n00:58.641 --> 01:12.918\n那我想先請教部長那這30年的這個教育的改革推動部長這邊如果就您個人而言我們如果要跟社會整體來討論這樣這30年來最正面的一個價值您會怎麼樣來談這30年的一個教改\n\n01:18.945 --> 01:21.687\n410教改的倡議是因應當時的時空背景那是台灣在早期有相當長時間的戒嚴即使在很多的\n\n01:34.714 --> 02:02.677\n是受到一些比較嚴格的規範包含教育那410之所以這樣的倡議比較希望能夠有更多鬆綁然後慢慢回到孩子學生是一個很重要的一個學習主體當然委員也了解這個教育的本質一直在強調那種應該要讓學生個別差異適性發展這個概念即使走下來410在這方面也看到台灣的教育其實更加的多元活潑包含剛才委員在提醒\n\n02:03.417 --> 02:23.916\n實驗教育也是因為讓家長有一個選擇因為不一定每個家長對孩子的選擇都一樣所以像實驗教育三法的通過也是用這樣的一個基礎讓很多孩子也許不太習慣在我們體制內的學校但這樣的概念我想都可以我是舉例說明可以看得出來\n\n02:24.557 --> 02:25.138\n所以就是以學生為主體．我想這個應該是\n\n02:42.597 --> 02:54.627\n這應該是一個教育不變的然後你怎麼可能把所有的孩子本來就有各種不同的潛能興趣然後透過一個比較標準化製造出同樣的產品這個大概不是410台灣的教育也應該這樣的發展包含這幾年我一直都秉持真的應該讓體制調整來讓孩子多有機會而不是用唯一的篩選標準\n\n03:05.797 --> 03:07.459\n所以我要跟委員報告很嚴格的篩選單一的標準其實是製造了非常多學習的挫敗者因為不是每個孩子都對科學有興趣\n\n03:25.261 --> 03:30.925\n對學習者的主體然後讓他有一個多元的選擇應該是能對教改這個區塊這幾年實行的一個比較正面的一個價值但是在配合這樣一個過程當中或許有一些未盡之處所以我想這是我們今天探討一個主題\n\n03:45.756 --> 03:46.456\n〈小子女化問題〉\n\n04:03.402 --> 04:14.651\n的過程當中一個很重要的準則所以那但是少子女化應該是我們很早就預期到早上我也聽到您說可能在千禧年的時候那發現這個問題還蠻大的但是那之後呢因為也廣設大學而一直導致當時當然應該有一些討論而導致今天呢變成有一些大學要退場\n\n04:26.020 --> 04:46.649\n在這邊我想要探討的是當時410的這個教改的訴求有這幾項那剛才我有聽到委員說這個我們科學委員說這個廣設高中大學跟這個人口的取向其實就我而言我也覺得是有點矛盾那但是我就提出其中一點那你們在那個時候主張的小班小校\n\n04:47.890 --> 05:04.280\n倒是在你們專科以上學校維護學生授教權益應該注意的這個事項辦法裡面呢那結果你們所規定出來的東西好像跟這個小班小校是有一點衝突所以如果你們期待有某一些師生餅\n\n05:05.100 --> 05:24.471\n但是我們又不懂為什麼低於這一些人數那就不行小班小校然後又不准我們低於某一些人數那這個學生的受教權跟邏輯在哪裡就有點像明明在少子化但是我們又廣設高中大學那這樣似乎我們不知道說那現在會碰到問題是絕對必然的嗎\n\n05:26.132 --> 05:52.888\n所以這是我們現在今年在討論目前的這個狀況那過去的已經過去了我們可能要討論的是現在的狀況是什麼那未來我們怎麼處理那我們一直很關心的這個就是私立高級中等學校的一個退場條例那我們接下來簡稱退場條例好了因為這幾年的這個少子女化然後跟廣設大學其實是連在一起的\n\n05:55.050 --> 06:14.965\n前幾年你們訂定了這個很嚴苛的這個退場條例那近幾年已經有幾個學校已經受到了這個影響那你們在退場條例裡面大概很重要的就是在這個第6條這邊有提到有一些學校我們在那個學界常常都說你們輔導就即輔導只要是進入你們的這個專案輔導大概就真的只有導了\n\n06:19.468 --> 06:23.092\n為什麼會有這個原因其實裡面有好幾個那個細項我們應該來討論比如說董事會的一個結構老師的這個轉業還有學生的權益那這是在退場條例裡面最重要的三個主體\n\n06:36.223 --> 07:01.001\n現在碰到了一個實際的狀況就是你們在第6條裡面規定有這些情勢那你們可能就會預警也會要介入這所謂的退場那我們再往下看那另外還有你們一些停辦的一些實施原則那有些東西我們也就很好奇說那學生不滿多少人或者是新生註冊率低於六成這個一定跟辦學不好有直接的連帶嗎我們不太清楚註冊率不佳\n\n07:03.343 --> 07:07.107\n在這個部分有一些其他的可能性比如說推廣教育或者是開設遠距離的課程因為這個原因不見得就是品質不好也有可能是因為地域的關係\n\n07:26.167 --> 07:32.089\n所以這個部分是可不可以請那個部理念再去做一個那個討論跟了解剛才委員提到這兩個之前就是有一些規範我們認為在質詢上是不是那麼合適啦所以剛才講那個什麼3000人這個其實已經取消\n\n07:41.713 --> 07:49.860\n因為我們也覺得說有些學校就走精緻﹑比較規模的﹑它或許是精緻化﹑然後﹑對﹑對﹑對﹑所以這個已經不存在﹑非常優質化﹑對﹑對﹑對當然講那個注冊力不佳﹑這個也不是專府的條件這個就是之前可能在推動的過程當中﹑也得到學校的一些反應因為它是合理的要往這樣的方向去做規劃如果以這樣的方式就被類專府﹑就我們認為反而是一個限制\n\n08:07.335 --> 08:09.557\n我跟委員提到這兩點我跟我報告在我們也經過一直在強調一個教育本來就是要不斷的去了解現場去做修正然後跟現場我跟委員補充這兩個已經做修正不會以這個為條件\n\n08:26.153 --> 08:45.105\n教育部的一個做法好像只要止損而不是讓學校起死回生那這個部分會關係到我待會要講的東西就是說我們想要了解現在部裡面對於這30年來在現在所碰到的問題跟未來我們到底要什麼走向這個是我覺得現在討論會比較有點正面的效益\n\n08:47.326 --> 09:10.035\n讓一些學校感覺到你們好像在防賊那那個情願不准好像他如果變得不好那你是情願不准到最後他只能退場那其實私校的一個轉型也是部裡面有很重要的責任那你們是不是應該其實董事會的部分我們知道其實你們都會等於是他如果進入了這個專府那你們就會指定董事那可是這個\n\n09:10.755 --> 09:10.955\n主席\n\n09:27.916 --> 09:41.311\n外委員也講到就是大漢技術學院那他乾脆他預期有這種現象那我乾脆自己先倒那我董事會能夠拿的東西那我就趕快拿那因為你們的規定嚴苛那影響到三個群體一個是董事會\n\n09:42.792 --> 10:06.038\n他要辦學當然他可能有辦學的心那他當然相當的利潤他也必須要的然後再來是學生那學生的部分那他應該要有學校原地像剛才科委員這邊也提到被轉了一個學校然後那個轉了之後呢這個學校也是搖搖欲墜或者有些就倒了他再轉了第二次他能夠真正完成其實也很難所以那\n\n10:09.059 --> 10:34.434\n還有你們的那個政策我也看不太懂就是已經很多學校都沒有生源了結果國立大學也一直不斷擴編科系跟增加員額那這一點我就想要問所以我們未來的路線究竟是要國家化還是要像自由競爭市場也就是要嘛我們像歐洲的公共化要不然就像美國的自由競爭市場你們就不要去卡私立學校它可以很優質化\n\n10:35.755 --> 10:36.856\n但我們不知道你到底是往公共化的方向走\n\n10:53.644 --> 11:16.575\n那還是那OK我就自由競爭那我也不要去限制你學費私立學校學費我也不要去限制你私立學校的某一些東西那我們就自由競爭市場那我們私立學校跟公立學校一起來競爭那也不盡然會是現在的這樣子的排名所以可不可以讓我們知道中華民國的高教究竟你們要何去何從現在是一個關鍵點\n\n11:18.511 --> 11:22.474\n最後我再為我們原住民學生發一個聲號不好意思那個感謝部長您有跟我講原住民的這個部分我們可以從這個產西合作的這個2.0去投入但是我們光把這兩個國際專班跟產西合作光是每一個月的今天拉出來\n\n11:38.285 --> 11:38.845\n主席主席主席\n\n12:02.372 --> 12:19.966\n委員這個我簡單補充一下就好了剛才談到對於私校董事會的這部分因為我們也看過也有董事會即使瞬間拍拍走人私生留給政府留給他們去所以為什麼要再加入當他列為專府\n\n12:20.706 --> 12:37.262\n需要有一些跟這個有關的老師或學生代表成為公益董事我想委員可以了解因為他們是生命共同體那第二個委員針對臺灣的高教環環招生這部分我也跟委員報告各行各業都缺目前教育部的政策也比較希望\n\n12:37.782 --> 12:38.162\n謝謝部長我們繼續一起努力那祝福你好謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.028,"end":9.357,"text":"我們也順便報告我們在第9位羅廷文委員質詢完畢之後我們就休息5分鐘謝謝"},{"start":19.822,"end":33.079,"text":"委員好部長你好首先我為原住民的這個國教這邊感謝你因為我跟立法院的前輩在討論的時候那因為您在這個部分的一個背景對原住民在國教的這個區塊那目前我們有一些往前走的一個"},{"start":38.726,"end":41.108,"text":"接下來因為今天討論的主題就這30年教育的一個狀況"},{"start":58.641,"end":72.918,"text":"那我想先請教部長那這30年的這個教育的改革推動部長這邊如果就您個人而言我們如果要跟社會整體來討論這樣這30年來最正面的一個價值您會怎麼樣來談這30年的一個教改"},{"start":78.945,"end":81.687,"text":"410教改的倡議是因應當時的時空背景那是台灣在早期有相當長時間的戒嚴即使在很多的"},{"start":94.714,"end":122.677,"text":"是受到一些比較嚴格的規範包含教育那410之所以這樣的倡議比較希望能夠有更多鬆綁然後慢慢回到孩子學生是一個很重要的一個學習主體當然委員也了解這個教育的本質一直在強調那種應該要讓學生個別差異適性發展這個概念即使走下來410在這方面也看到台灣的教育其實更加的多元活潑包含剛才委員在提醒"},{"start":123.417,"end":143.916,"text":"實驗教育也是因為讓家長有一個選擇因為不一定每個家長對孩子的選擇都一樣所以像實驗教育三法的通過也是用這樣的一個基礎讓很多孩子也許不太習慣在我們體制內的學校但這樣的概念我想都可以我是舉例說明可以看得出來"},{"start":144.557,"end":145.138,"text":"所以就是以學生為主體．我想這個應該是"},{"start":162.597,"end":174.627,"text":"這應該是一個教育不變的然後你怎麼可能把所有的孩子本來就有各種不同的潛能興趣然後透過一個比較標準化製造出同樣的產品這個大概不是410台灣的教育也應該這樣的發展包含這幾年我一直都秉持真的應該讓體制調整來讓孩子多有機會而不是用唯一的篩選標準"},{"start":185.797,"end":187.459,"text":"所以我要跟委員報告很嚴格的篩選單一的標準其實是製造了非常多學習的挫敗者因為不是每個孩子都對科學有興趣"},{"start":205.261,"end":210.925,"text":"對學習者的主體然後讓他有一個多元的選擇應該是能對教改這個區塊這幾年實行的一個比較正面的一個價值但是在配合這樣一個過程當中或許有一些未盡之處所以我想這是我們今天探討一個主題"},{"start":225.756,"end":226.456,"text":"〈小子女化問題〉"},{"start":243.402,"end":254.651,"text":"的過程當中一個很重要的準則所以那但是少子女化應該是我們很早就預期到早上我也聽到您說可能在千禧年的時候那發現這個問題還蠻大的但是那之後呢因為也廣設大學而一直導致當時當然應該有一些討論而導致今天呢變成有一些大學要退場"},{"start":266.02,"end":286.649,"text":"在這邊我想要探討的是當時410的這個教改的訴求有這幾項那剛才我有聽到委員說這個我們科學委員說這個廣設高中大學跟這個人口的取向其實就我而言我也覺得是有點矛盾那但是我就提出其中一點那你們在那個時候主張的小班小校"},{"start":287.89,"end":304.28,"text":"倒是在你們專科以上學校維護學生授教權益應該注意的這個事項辦法裡面呢那結果你們所規定出來的東西好像跟這個小班小校是有一點衝突所以如果你們期待有某一些師生餅"},{"start":305.1,"end":324.471,"text":"但是我們又不懂為什麼低於這一些人數那就不行小班小校然後又不准我們低於某一些人數那這個學生的受教權跟邏輯在哪裡就有點像明明在少子化但是我們又廣設高中大學那這樣似乎我們不知道說那現在會碰到問題是絕對必然的嗎"},{"start":326.132,"end":352.888,"text":"所以這是我們現在今年在討論目前的這個狀況那過去的已經過去了我們可能要討論的是現在的狀況是什麼那未來我們怎麼處理那我們一直很關心的這個就是私立高級中等學校的一個退場條例那我們接下來簡稱退場條例好了因為這幾年的這個少子女化然後跟廣設大學其實是連在一起的"},{"start":355.05,"end":374.965,"text":"前幾年你們訂定了這個很嚴苛的這個退場條例那近幾年已經有幾個學校已經受到了這個影響那你們在退場條例裡面大概很重要的就是在這個第6條這邊有提到有一些學校我們在那個學界常常都說你們輔導就即輔導只要是進入你們的這個專案輔導大概就真的只有導了"},{"start":379.468,"end":383.092,"text":"為什麼會有這個原因其實裡面有好幾個那個細項我們應該來討論比如說董事會的一個結構老師的這個轉業還有學生的權益那這是在退場條例裡面最重要的三個主體"},{"start":396.223,"end":421.001,"text":"現在碰到了一個實際的狀況就是你們在第6條裡面規定有這些情勢那你們可能就會預警也會要介入這所謂的退場那我們再往下看那另外還有你們一些停辦的一些實施原則那有些東西我們也就很好奇說那學生不滿多少人或者是新生註冊率低於六成這個一定跟辦學不好有直接的連帶嗎我們不太清楚註冊率不佳"},{"start":423.343,"end":427.107,"text":"在這個部分有一些其他的可能性比如說推廣教育或者是開設遠距離的課程因為這個原因不見得就是品質不好也有可能是因為地域的關係"},{"start":446.167,"end":452.089,"text":"所以這個部分是可不可以請那個部理念再去做一個那個討論跟了解剛才委員提到這兩個之前就是有一些規範我們認為在質詢上是不是那麼合適啦所以剛才講那個什麼3000人這個其實已經取消"},{"start":461.713,"end":469.86,"text":"因為我們也覺得說有些學校就走精緻﹑比較規模的﹑它或許是精緻化﹑然後﹑對﹑對﹑對﹑所以這個已經不存在﹑非常優質化﹑對﹑對﹑對當然講那個注冊力不佳﹑這個也不是專府的條件這個就是之前可能在推動的過程當中﹑也得到學校的一些反應因為它是合理的要往這樣的方向去做規劃如果以這樣的方式就被類專府﹑就我們認為反而是一個限制"},{"start":487.335,"end":489.557,"text":"我跟委員提到這兩點我跟我報告在我們也經過一直在強調一個教育本來就是要不斷的去了解現場去做修正然後跟現場我跟委員補充這兩個已經做修正不會以這個為條件"},{"start":506.153,"end":525.105,"text":"教育部的一個做法好像只要止損而不是讓學校起死回生那這個部分會關係到我待會要講的東西就是說我們想要了解現在部裡面對於這30年來在現在所碰到的問題跟未來我們到底要什麼走向這個是我覺得現在討論會比較有點正面的效益"},{"start":527.326,"end":550.035,"text":"讓一些學校感覺到你們好像在防賊那那個情願不准好像他如果變得不好那你是情願不准到最後他只能退場那其實私校的一個轉型也是部裡面有很重要的責任那你們是不是應該其實董事會的部分我們知道其實你們都會等於是他如果進入了這個專府那你們就會指定董事那可是這個"},{"start":550.755,"end":550.955,"text":"主席"},{"start":567.916,"end":581.311,"text":"外委員也講到就是大漢技術學院那他乾脆他預期有這種現象那我乾脆自己先倒那我董事會能夠拿的東西那我就趕快拿那因為你們的規定嚴苛那影響到三個群體一個是董事會"},{"start":582.792,"end":606.038,"text":"他要辦學當然他可能有辦學的心那他當然相當的利潤他也必須要的然後再來是學生那學生的部分那他應該要有學校原地像剛才科委員這邊也提到被轉了一個學校然後那個轉了之後呢這個學校也是搖搖欲墜或者有些就倒了他再轉了第二次他能夠真正完成其實也很難所以那"},{"start":609.059,"end":634.434,"text":"還有你們的那個政策我也看不太懂就是已經很多學校都沒有生源了結果國立大學也一直不斷擴編科系跟增加員額那這一點我就想要問所以我們未來的路線究竟是要國家化還是要像自由競爭市場也就是要嘛我們像歐洲的公共化要不然就像美國的自由競爭市場你們就不要去卡私立學校它可以很優質化"},{"start":635.755,"end":636.856,"text":"但我們不知道你到底是往公共化的方向走"},{"start":653.644,"end":676.575,"text":"那還是那OK我就自由競爭那我也不要去限制你學費私立學校學費我也不要去限制你私立學校的某一些東西那我們就自由競爭市場那我們私立學校跟公立學校一起來競爭那也不盡然會是現在的這樣子的排名所以可不可以讓我們知道中華民國的高教究竟你們要何去何從現在是一個關鍵點"},{"start":678.511,"end":682.474,"text":"最後我再為我們原住民學生發一個聲號不好意思那個感謝部長您有跟我講原住民的這個部分我們可以從這個產西合作的這個2.0去投入但是我們光把這兩個國際專班跟產西合作光是每一個月的今天拉出來"},{"start":698.285,"end":698.845,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":722.372,"end":739.966,"text":"委員這個我簡單補充一下就好了剛才談到對於私校董事會的這部分因為我們也看過也有董事會即使瞬間拍拍走人私生留給政府留給他們去所以為什麼要再加入當他列為專府"},{"start":740.706,"end":757.262,"text":"需要有一些跟這個有關的老師或學生代表成為公益董事我想委員可以了解因為他們是生命共同體那第二個委員針對臺灣的高教環環招生這部分我也跟委員報告各行各業都缺目前教育部的政策也比較希望"},{"start":757.782,"end":758.162,"text":"謝謝部長 我們繼續一起努力 那祝福你好 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}}}}