{"id":151277,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151277","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016275df0c62f258c8a1cb57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c949f750fbe189a9eba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:21:48 - 11:39:11","影片長度":"00:17:23","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":1043,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:39:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:21:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":841,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時21分）主席、各位，大家午安，是不是請我們薛部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["薛部長富盛：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，剛才聽說你在個人意願上，520之後並沒有很想要留下來服務。"],["薛部長富盛：是的，因為我必須做抉擇，我也已經65歲了，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：我覺得有一點可惜，因為到目前為止，我認為第一個，你有專業，第二個，你跟業者保持的距離還蠻不錯的，保持適當的距離，而不是太過於親近，你知道這個部門最大的問題就是行政部門跟業者搞得太親近了，這個事情就不太好了。那我覺得你應該是很適任的，就是說跟業者保持一定的距離，然後又有專業，所以其實我們國家的部門……我們更期待的是你可以留下來。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝林委員。"],["林委員淑芬：這個是題外話，那我現在要講的是限塑的政策。我們看得到，一次性的塑膠用品不減反增，但是我要講幾個數字，根據歐盟2021年統計，每年大概有500萬到1,300萬公噸的塑膠垃圾進入海洋，其中一次性的塑膠產品占了50%以上，這是歐盟的。那臺灣呢？臺灣的本土研究你有看到嗎？荒野保護協會他們在2023年進行了川廢快篩調查計畫，它調查了淡水河，把淡水河從上游新店溪、大安溪、基隆河到下游淡水河，到出海口一共283公里的全河域調查，並作成了調查結果，然後從這個調查結果他們發現河岸段垃圾量成長，2020到2023年的成長高達一倍。臺灣的環境，至少河川塑膠的垃圾成長高達一倍，而這裡面一次性的飲食廢棄物高達七成。他們進一步去比較2020跟2023年這兩次做的數據，第一個，2020的時候，河邊每公里平均有73袋的垃圾，一袋是14公升，所以大概1公里平均有1公噸的垃圾；然後到2023年變成156袋，大概有2.18噸的垃圾，增加了一倍。第二個，廢棄物種類的前三名，第一個是塑膠瓶罐容器，占28.8%，塑膠袋占24.1%，飲料吸管及免洗餐具占15.3%，合計總共近七成是我們生活中一次性的飲食廢棄物。此外，它堆置的地點大概就是河川的下游、河道的交會處、感潮段，熱點是什麼呢？熱點就是特別集中在幾個重要的地標，譬如關渡大橋、社子島的基隆河岸、蘆洲淡水河沿線的步道，也就是下游以及兩河交會處，以上是他們針對河川下游做的調查。但是從源頭來看、從生產塑膠袋的源頭來看，的確也是如此，從塑膠袋生產的源頭來看，這個調查數據徹徹底底反映了這個真實性，經濟部統計處的調查，從100年起到現在，塑膠袋的生產量、銷售量以及內銷量，幾乎也是跟著逐年上升。100年的塑膠袋生產量是19.3萬公噸，110年的生產量從19萬公噸變成31.6萬公噸，生產幅度高達1.6倍；100年生產的19.3萬公噸中內銷是14.2萬公噸，111年生產的31.6萬公噸中內銷使用是20萬公噸，所以塑膠袋的內銷銷售量也成長了1.5倍。看到這樣的數據，我們覺得很奇怪，在限塑政策下是越限越多，使用越多啊！我們都知道100年是限塑政策的起點，卻越用越多！部長，對於越用越多、在限塑政策下越限越多，結果是越用越多，你有什麼樣的想法與政策上的檢討嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：向林委員報告，剛剛林委員的分析非常重要，事實上，過去一段時間我也與我們的資源循環署密集的開會，應該要從剛剛林委員所講的分布去看，事實上，將近百分之七十幾是我們民眾拋棄、使用過的東西，所以重點……"],["林委員淑芬：一次性。"],["薛部長富盛：對，一次性的，這個反而是一個重點，基本上這也是要從源頭去做減量。"],["林委員淑芬：我發現你很認真、你也有掌握啊！很認真，很累吧！"],["薛部長富盛：還好啦！"],["林委員淑芬：很認真很累喔！但是你要掌握一次性的消費行為就會牽扯到生意喔！就會牽扯到商家喔！"],["薛部長富盛：對啊！挑戰度就在這裡了。"],["林委員淑芬：很高喔！所以你覺得很累，你想走了喔！"],["薛部長富盛：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：人家問你，所以你說你不想留著，因為認真、操守又正經的人，其實是不容易的，我知道。但我現在是要鼓勵你，其實最好是繼續留下來為環境努力，因為有專業、很認真又正經八百的人、不與業者混在一起的人，很少！我現在要講的就是這個。","接下來不是要講你，而是要講這個政策，國家永續會為了呼應聯合國永續發展目標，訂出了幾個核心目標、幾個具體目標，我就簡單地講。一次性用品有關的指標，當時永續會訂出2020年減到每年每人使用400個塑膠袋，到了2030年的具體目標是希望達到每年每人使用100個塑膠袋。部長，針對這樣的減量目標，實際上執行的狀況如何？2020年已經過去了。"],["薛部長富盛：署長這邊有沒有數據？"],["林委員淑芬：署長，2020年之後，現在已經減到幾個了？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：我們現在是每年大概使用100億個。"],["林委員淑芬：幾個？每年每人是幾個？"],["薛部長富盛：她講的是total 100億，不是……"],["林委員淑芬：total 100億，2022年每年每人其實是430個，但是還剩下6年就到2030年了，目標是每年每人使用100個塑膠袋。"],["薛部長富盛：挑戰度很高。"],["林委員淑芬：挑戰度很高啊！面對這樣的減量目標，你的具體執行政策、路徑要怎麼做？署長，你有沒有更具體的做法？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，關於這一點，包括傳統市場、包括攤販、包括夜市，在某種程度可以說是使用塑膠袋的漏網之魚，也不是我們……"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！對啦！你知道問題在那裡，所以你要怎麼做？"],["薛部長富盛：這個部分給一個時間點，大概是明年，我們先預告，未來要以價制量。"],["林委員淑芬：你是說你要預告限塑囉！"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["林委員淑芬：你講的是攤販喔！"],["薛部長富盛：對，攤販與傳統市場。"],["林委員淑芬：現在還沒列管有店面的餐飲業，只有連鎖啦、超商啦、文具、飲料、西點麵包……"],["薛部長富盛：只要開發票的就開始列入了。"],["林委員淑芬：只要開發票的，你現在都要列入了？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["林委員淑芬：早餐店呢？沒有開發票的早餐店呢？早餐店的塑膠袋才是大宗耶！"],["薛部長富盛：早餐店也是一個很頭痛的問題，就是與傳統市場一樣，它會列在下一波，大概是114年，我們希望明年就可以……"],["林委員淑芬：這是你個人的看法還是部裡的政策？"],["薛部長富盛：我們還在談，也有好幾個腹案，接下來就看看……"],["林委員淑芬：可是你不留下來啊！"],["薛部長富盛：我可以提供意見啊！"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要講這個是因為看守臺灣在2023年已經對民眾……大家不敢推行政策的主要理由都說是民眾不支持，到底是民眾不支持還是政策怠惰？不敢做、誤以為民眾支持，所以我們要拿出數據啊！數據會講話啊！2023年看守臺灣對民眾進行購物用塑膠提袋的使用習慣及政策意向問卷調查，調查結果指出有九成八的民眾支持全面禁用一次性購物用塑膠袋，如果全面限用就不得免費提供，只是限用而不是禁用喔！"],["薛部長富盛：對，它是限用。"],["林委員淑芬：它只是要用塑膠袋必須用買的而已喔！但是有98%的人同意。此外，有93%的民眾支持塑膠袋收費應該使用於垃圾減量措施或垃圾費，這是民間做的調查。但是你們官方也有做，署長，你知道環境部也有做嗎？2018年也針對限塑進行民意調查，第一個，請問你支不支持政府未來擴大管制所有開發票的店家都不能免費提供購物用塑膠袋且需付錢購買，署長，你知道這個贊成的比例有多高嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，最近我們……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在講的這個是你們做的，事實上贊成的比例很高，你知道這是你們做的嗎？你們不知道？好，沒關係，我告訴你，高達八成的民眾針對這項政策持肯定的評價，而且有近六成五的受訪者認為不只是要針對開發票的店家，應該還要繼續擴大管制夜市、攤販及市場的塑膠袋使用，65%的受訪者認為應該要這樣做；再者，你們還做了網路調查，有七成的受訪者針對這個政策持正面肯定的評價。由此可見，限塑政策已廣為國人接受，而且大多數人都支持以價制量的方式擴大管制對象，減少廢棄物產生。你們在2018年就講過104年開始要全面限用購物用提袋，2030年要全面禁用，這是你們在2018年所提的政策。現在無論是亞洲或歐盟，包括法國，都是全面禁用，在韓國的量販超市或大型商場不是限塑而是禁用，英國則是將購物塑膠袋的價格大幅提高，顯示限塑已經是國際潮流，而且人家已經走到禁塑、禁用了。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，我也希望環境部應該要更勇敢一點，不要用呼籲的！"],["薛部長富盛：不怕得罪人啦！"],["林委員淑芬：呼籲就不是辦法嘛！要拿出真正的政策，我們離上一次的塑膠袋管制政策已經七年了，你們應該要進行檢討，第一個，要擴大限用，就像你說的，開發票的要適用。"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["林委員淑芬：第二個，已經限用的是不是也應該進一步到禁用？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員淑芬：第三個政策上的建議是擴大使用兩用袋，即便是限用的，你不要再買一個……就是擴大使用兩用袋。看守臺灣問民眾拿回家的塑膠袋要做什麼，民眾都說要拿回家裝垃圾。根據它對雙北地區民眾的調查，有75%的人表示拿回去是當垃圾袋使用，有可能在雙北購買了兩用袋回去當成原本就要買的垃圾袋，還可以繼續使用，這樣隨袋徵收，所以擴大使用兩用袋的前提必須是擴大垃圾費隨袋徵收的基礎。限塑政策中的擴大使用兩用袋、兩袋合一成為非常重要的政策配套，在雙北是不是應該要強制規範？可不可以？署長，有沒有困難？它已經隨袋徵收了，所以我們限塑政策的塑就必須是兩用袋。"],["薛部長富盛：我們現在是讓各縣市，特別是直轄縣市，由他們找一些示範點先推行，沒有……"],["林委員淑芬：雙北已經都是隨袋徵收了。"],["薛部長富盛：雙北已經是了，現在桃園、臺南……"],["林委員淑芬：而且隨袋徵收地區的家戶垃圾產出量比隨水徵收地區減少了一半啦！一半啦！真的，隨袋徵收的垃圾減半、回收加倍，大家都知道是有效的。原本大家都以為隨袋徵收要買垃圾袋很貴，隨水徵收比較方便，事實上，隨著垃圾的減量之後，隨袋徵收所買的垃圾袋費用比隨水徵收時代還更便宜，因為大部分都回收了。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員淑芬：我們現在就讓雙北以外的……你們都說這是地方政府的權限，交給地方自行評估，除了雙北是隨袋之外，其他都是隨水，沒有隨水的地方就是按戶徵收。但是我現在要建議你，一般廢棄物清除處理費徵收辦法第三條，它的規定其實是可以處理，由中央訂定政策，但地方政府可能會因為選舉到了就不敢做，其實我們認為中央若能再大刀闊斧一點，為了臺灣的環境，而且我們沒有那麼多的處理量能，永遠可以焚化那麼多的家戶垃圾，所以垃圾要源頭減量，同時要增加回收，而且限塑禁用的目的是我們要在源頭減量，使用這些一次性的塑膠用品嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：認同，謝謝林委員。"],["林委員淑芬：所以需要有效的政策。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["林委員淑芬：那些不敢這麼做的地方政府其實是因為沒有經驗，就以雙北來看，買垃圾袋反而比隨水徵收所付的錢更少，而且垃圾會減量，國家的廢棄物管理會更好、回收的會更多。","抱歉！給我最後1分鐘、半分鐘。我講一個農用塑膠膜的問題，因為亂象很多，而且焚化、掩埋、非法棄置在海邊，污染了海邊，在海邊的垃圾大部分都是農用塑膠膜，非常的多，因為它會沾染土壤，人力清洗不容易，所以廠商不願意回收。我是希望環境部能考慮公告為應回收物品，因為它的量很大，對環境的衝擊很大，請責任業者要繳交回收清除處理費，無論是輸入的或製造的責任業者，通通都要繳錢，繳錢之後回收就有基金會給付，有基金會給付才有意願、才會進入一個好的循環，這件事情已經到了一個很嚴重的地步，茲事體大。謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝林委員。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你可以留著啦！正經的人留著比較好啦！"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。我們中午不休息，等質詢委員全部發言結束再散會。","現在處理臨時提案，總共有3案，請一併宣讀。","一、","我國自民國91年起開始推動限塑政策管制塑膠袋及免洗餐具，2018年更提出限用一次性塑膠製品時程表，包括塑膠購物袋、免洗餐具、飲料杯與塑膠吸管，皆於2020年起擴大限用，預計2025年達到全面限用，2030年實現全面禁用目標。惟我國2023年塑膠袋內銷量達20.8萬公噸，較2022年還增加1,300公噸，另外，環境部雖限制四大類業者提供內用者塑膠吸管，但對外帶飲料並無規範，目前有近九成手搖飲料店提供外帶飲料使用塑膠吸管，實難發揮塑膠吸管減量之效果，更突顯限塑政策執行成效有限。","為落實塑膠廢棄物源頭減量，爰要求環境部針對目前14大類不得免費提供購物用塑膠袋對象，以及四大類禁止提供內用者塑膠吸管對象，研擬擴大適用範圍之可行性與方案，於一個月內向社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：王育敏　　陳菁徽　　廖偉翔　　盧縣一","二、","因4月3日花蓮地震造成數部發電機組故障待完成檢修，又逢4月15日大潭等發電機組跳機，台電為求穩定供電遂開啟興達電廠第3、4號燃煤備用機組。惟隔日供電已回穩，台電網站亦顯示該日備轉容量率達13.83%，台電理應依「高雄市環保局空污防制計畫」規定停止興達第3、4號發電機組繼續運行，然該日兩部燃煤發電機組之發電量仍各高達500MW以上（摘自台電網站資料），其作為影響空氣品質、環境問題及國人健康甚鉅。","有鑑於環境部於事發當日並無發布任何聲明或指正，顯現其於經濟部協同台電處理能源問題時，無法充分發揮監督功能，並落實空氣污染防制計畫。爰要求環境部應於本週五前公開說明本次跳電危機相關之疏失及策進作為，並於兩週內提交書面報告予本委員會。","提案人：王育敏　　廖偉翔　　盧縣一　　陳菁徽","三、","案由：我國目前現行一般廢棄物清除處理費依照《一般廢棄物清除處理費徵收辦法》第3條可依照按用水量計算徵收、按戶定額計算徵收、按垃圾量計算徵收等3項方式，惟除台北市、新北市採取按垃圾量計算外，多數直轄市、縣（市）主管機關採取按用水量計算徵收，但國人並未知悉兩項政策反映出垃圾處理成本負擔差異，也無法達到「污染者付費」的公平精神。","請環境部於三個月內參照《一般廢棄物清除處理費微收辦法》第3條3項所列清潔處理方式，提供各縣市、國人每單位垃圾處理費負擔成本供本委員會知悉，並說明目前推動按垃圾量計算徵收所遭遇之困難與改善方案。","提案人：林月琴","連署人：王正旭　　陳　瑩"],["主席：第1案，請問行政單位有沒有意見？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：沒有意見。"],["主席：第1案照案通過。","第2案，請問行政單位有沒有意見？"],["張司長順欽：報告委員，關於臨時提案第2案，我大概簡單說明一下。剛剛我們查了一下，第一個，興達電廠第3、4號機組是到113年的年底才轉為備用，所以我們建議文字做一個調整。後半段的「本週五前公開說明本次跳電」是不是可以刪掉，讓我們在三個禮拜內提出書面報告給委員會，說明台電公司發電污染排放的情形與空氣品質變化的監督作為，包括事前、事中及事後，以及未來台電公司可能轉為備用機組的監督方式，我們把這些都交代清楚，是不是可以改成這樣的修正？"],["主席：需要到三個禮拜嗎？"],["張司長順欽：因為要弄清楚一點，所以我們可能要找台電談清楚。"],["主席：既然如此，我就要看你們是否有檢討徹底三個禮拜的話就要檢討得很徹底。"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，目前就是在空氣品質不良的時候他們會降載，我們也都會收得到降載的情形，每一個機組降載的情形……"],["主席：好，到時候提交上來時必須要有很清楚的數據。"],["張司長順欽：是，至於細部的文字，我們再跟助理這邊酌修一下，謝謝。"],["主席：好，你們把文字修正完之後再交到主席台。","第3案。"],["薛部長富盛：沒有意見。"],["顏署長旭明：沒有意見。"],["主席：好，第3案沒有意見，通過。","第2案的修正文字就是這個版本嗎？你唸給大家聽一下。"],["張司長順欽：臨時提案，「因4月3日花蓮地震造成數部發電機組故障待完成檢修，又逢4月15日大潭等發電機組跳機，台電為求穩定供電依規定運行興達電廠第3、4號燃煤機組。惟隔日供電已回穩，台電網站亦顯示該日備轉容量率達13.83%，台電理應依符合「高雄市環保局空污防制計畫」規定興達第3、4號發電機組運行。」後段的部分就刪掉。","再來是第二段，「有鑑於環境部於事發當日並無發布任何聲明或指正，顯現其於經濟部協同台電處理能源問題時，無法充分發揮監督功能，並落實空氣污染防制計畫。爰要求環境部應於三週內提交書面報告予本委員會，說明對於台電公司發電污染排放及空氣品質變化之監督作為，包括事前、事中及事後等作為，及未來可能轉為備載機組之監督。」"],["主席：好，就按修正文字通過。","臨時提案處理完畢。","接下來請游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員不在。","請黃秀芳委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 306.096, \"end\": 306.196, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 306.196, \"end\": 307.237, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 307.237, \"end\": 307.537, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 307.537, \"end\": 307.677, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 307.677, \"end\": 307.777, \"score\": 0.614}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 307.777, \"end\": 308.037, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 308.037, \"end\": 308.377, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"塑\", \"start\": 308.377, \"end\": 308.758, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 308.758, \"end\": 309.058, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 309.058, \"end\": 309.318, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 309.318, \"end\": 309.598, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 309.598, \"end\": 309.858, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, 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\"啦\", \"start\": 1037.577, \"end\": 1037.777, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 1037.777, \"end\": 1037.857, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 1037.857, \"end\": 1037.917, \"score\": 0.487}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1037.917, \"end\": 1038.018, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1038.018, \"end\": 1038.178, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"留\", \"start\": 1038.178, \"end\": 1038.538, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1038.538, \"end\": 1038.578, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 1038.578, \"end\": 1038.658, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1038.658, \"end\": 1038.678, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,924 --> 00:00:31,613\n主席各位大家午安是不是來請我們薛部長好請部長林委員好部長剛才聽說你520之後就你個人意願上並沒有很想要留下來服務是的已經這個也因為我必須做抉擇因為我也已經65歲了所以\n\n2\n00:00:32,510 --> 00:00:37,656\n我覺得有點可惜,因為到目前為止,我認為第一個你有專業第二個你跟業者保持的距離還蠻不錯的,保持適當的距離而不是太過於親近你知道這個部門最大的問題就是行政部門跟業者搞得太親近了,這個事情就不太好了\n\n3\n00:00:53,172 --> 00:01:12,517\n但我覺得你應該是很適任的就是說跟業者保持一定的距離然後又有專業所以其實我們國家的部門我們更期待是你可以留下來這個是題外話但我現在講的是限塑的政策我們看得到一次性的塑膠用品不減反增\n\n4\n00:01:14,077 --> 00:01:34,738\n但是我要講幾個數字根據歐盟2021年統計每年大概有500萬到1300萬公噸的塑膠垃圾進入海洋其中一次性的塑膠產品佔了50%以上這是歐盟的那台灣呢?台灣的本土研究你有看到嗎?是\n\n5\n00:01:39,413 --> 00:02:00,083\n荒野保護協會他們在2023年荒野保護協會他們進行了穿廢快篩調查計畫他調查了淡水河把淡水河從上游新天溪、大安溪、基隆河到下游淡水河到出海口一共283公里的全河域調查他做成了\n\n6\n00:02:00,763 --> 00:02:21,133\n然後在這個調查結果他們發現河岸段垃圾量成長2020到2023年成長高達一倍台灣的環境至少河川塑膠的這個垃圾成長高達一倍而這裡面一次性的飲食廢棄物高達七成\n\n7\n00:02:22,796 --> 00:02:47,068\n那他們進一步去比較2020跟2023年這些數據這兩次做的數據他們顯示第一個2020的時候呢每公里就河邊啦每公里平均有73袋的垃圾一袋是14公升所以大概一公里平均有一公噸一公噸的這個垃圾然後到2023年變成156袋大概有2.18噸\n\n8\n00:02:51,971 --> 00:02:52,231\n提供的報告\n\n9\n00:03:16,949 --> 00:03:42,037\n是我們生活當中一次性的飲食廢棄物那此外呢他堆置的地點大概就是河川的下游河道的交會處趕潮斷這熱點是什麼呢熱點就是特別集中在幾個重要的地標比如說關渡大橋社址島的基隆河岸還有盧州淡水河沿線的步道就是下游還有這個兩河交會處這樣子\n\n10\n00:03:45,819 --> 00:03:50,969\n我們在這看這個是下游他們去做的調查但從源頭來看從生產垃圾袋的源頭來看的確也是如此\n\n11\n00:03:56,704 --> 00:03:58,265\n從塑膠袋生產的源頭來看這個調查數據徹底的反映了這個真實性經濟部統計處的調查從100年起到現在塑膠袋的生產量、銷售量還有內銷量幾乎也是跟著逐年上升100年的時候塑膠袋生產量是19.3萬公噸\n\n12\n00:04:24,203 --> 00:04:25,744\n110年生產量是從19萬變成31.6萬公噸生產幅度高達1.6倍然後100年的時候這個19萬.3公噸裡面它內銷是14.2萬公噸\n\n13\n00:04:44,341 --> 00:05:09,878\n然後111年31.6萬公噸裡面內銷使用是20萬公噸所以塑膠袋的內銷銷售量也成長了1.5倍那在這種數據裡面我們覺得是奇怪限塑政策越限越多使用越多啊所以我們都知道100年就是我們限塑政策的起點啊\n\n14\n00:05:11,311 --> 00:05:31,799\n然後卻越用越多,那部長這個對越用越多、限塑政策越限越多結果越用越多,這個你有什麼樣的想法和政策上的檢討嗎?給林委員報告,這個剛剛林委員的分析非常重要,事實上我們過去一段時間我跟我們的資源型懷屬\n\n15\n00:05:32,899 --> 00:06:01,070\n就是密集的在開會應該要從源頭剛剛林委員這個講到的分布事實上有將近70%事實上是我們民眾拋棄的使用過的這些東西一次性對一次性的所以這個反而是一個重點那一次性基本上也要從源頭來去做減量你就是這樣子你很認真我發現你很認真你也掌握啊很認真很累齁\n\n16\n00:06:02,750 --> 00:06:27,452\n還好吧很認真很累但是你要掌握一次性的這個消費行為就牽扯到生意喔就要牽扯到商家喔對啊所以這個挑戰度就在這邊很高喔所以你就很累你想走了喔沒有沒有沒有沒有人家問你所以你說你不想留著因為認真又正經操守又正經的人其實是不容易的我知道但我現在在這裡是要鼓勵你其實\n\n17\n00:06:28,493 --> 00:06:44,138\n最好是繼續留下來為環境努力因為有專業很認真又政經八百的人不跟業者混在一起的人很少我現在要講這一個好我現在不是要講你我要講這個政策\n\n18\n00:06:45,098 --> 00:06:52,400\n國家永續會他們為了這個我們自己的為了呼籲這個聯合國永續發展目標訂出了幾個核心目標幾個具體目標我簡單的來講一次性用品有關的指標當時永續會就是訂出來2020年減到每年每人使用400個塑膠袋\n\n19\n00:07:07,884 --> 00:07:17,555\n到2030年每個人要每年限制希望能夠有一個具體目標是要達到每年每人使用100個但是這樣的部長這樣的減量目標實際上執行的狀況怎麼樣20年已經到了\n\n20\n00:07:30,230 --> 00:07:32,152\n市長2020年現在撿到幾個?我們現在是每年大概用100億個每年每人幾個?不是他講的是total100億不是\n\n21\n00:07:47,936 --> 00:08:09,863\n總共101對現在每年每人2022年計是430個那現在剩下6年就2030年了每人每年要使用100個塑膠袋就這樣子挑戰度很高那你這樣的減量目標你的具體的執行政策路徑要怎麼樣做?署長你有沒有更具體的?\n\n22\n00:08:12,375 --> 00:08:34,046\n事實上這個給林委員報告這一點就是我們一直這個對於包括傳統市場包括癱瘓包括夜市事實上它是塑膠在使用裡面的在某一個程度可以說是這個漏網之一也不是我們不是啦對啦你知道在那裡你要怎麼做\n\n23\n00:08:35,206 --> 00:09:03,281\n這一點我們事實上給一個時間點大概明年我們先預告那未來我想包括以量以價值量好那我你是說你要預告要限塑囉對你講的是攤販喔對攤販跟傳統式的現在還沒有列管的有店面的餐飲業現在是只有這個連鎖啦超商啦連鎖的那個還有文具啦洗衣店飲料洗點麵包只要開花票的\n\n24\n00:09:03,561 --> 00:09:31,628\n只要開發票的開始列入了你現在都要列入了早餐店呢?沒有開發票的早餐店呢?早餐店的熱搜大中欸早餐店那個也是一個很頭痛的問題就是跟傳統市場那個一樣那列在下一波大概114年我們希望這個明年這是你個人的看法還是說這個整體的部裡面的政策我們有在談啦有好幾個互換啦那接下來就看看可是你不留下來啊\n\n25\n00:09:32,833 --> 00:09:52,487\n我可以提供意見我現在要講這個是因為Consul台灣在2023年他們已經對民眾大家政策不敢推行的主要理由都說啊這個民眾不支持啦到底是民眾不支持還是政策怠惰不敢做誤以為民眾支持那我們要拿出數據啊數據會講話\n\n26\n00:09:55,289 --> 00:10:19,944\n2023年看守台灣對民眾進行了購物用塑膠提袋的使用習慣及政策意向問卷調查。調查結果指出有九成八的民眾支持全面禁用一次性的購物用塑膠袋。如果全面限用的話就不得免費提供只是限用而不是禁用喔限用它只是你沒有袋你要再用塑膠袋要買而已喔\n\n27\n00:10:20,504 --> 00:10:34,792\n但是是98%同意一次性的那9393%的民眾支持塑膠袋收費應該使用於垃圾減量措施及或垃圾費這是民間做的但是官方你們也有做\n\n28\n00:10:36,052 --> 00:10:56,829\n環境部部長你知道也有做嗎2018年也針對限塑進行民意調查第一個你們問請問你支不支持政府未來擴大管制所有開發票的店家都不能免費提供購物用塑膠袋且需付錢購買部長你知道你們這個贊成的比例有多高嗎\n\n29\n00:11:01,410 --> 00:11:08,189\n我現在講這個是你們做的事實上很高你們自己做的你知道嗎你們不知道好沒關係我告訴你\n\n30\n00:11:09,517 --> 00:11:28,349\n高達八成的民眾針對這項政策持肯定的評價而且有近六成五的受訪者認為不是只有針對開發票的應該還要繼續擴大管制業市攤販及市場的塑膠袋使用65%的受訪者認為應該要這樣子然後你們還做了網路調查有七成的受訪者針對這個政策持正面肯定的評價由此可見\n\n31\n00:11:39,156 --> 00:11:59,174\n現做的政策以廣為國人接受而且大多數人都支持以價質量的方式擴大管制對象減少廢棄物產生而且你們過去就講過你講的沒錯你2018年就講104年開始要全面限用購物用提待2030年要全面禁用\n\n32\n00:11:59,935 --> 00:12:26,762\n本來你們2018年的政策是這樣子而現在不論是亞洲或歐盟包括法國是全面禁用在韓國的量販店、超市、大型商場他們不是限塑,他們是禁用英國把購物袋那個塑膠袋的價格大幅提高所以顯示限塑已經是國際潮流而且人家已經走到禁塑了禁用了那我也是希望部長環境部應該更勇敢一點\n\n33\n00:12:27,762 --> 00:12:55,922\n不要用呼籲的呼籲就不是辦法嘛事實上要拿出真正的政策來我們離上一次的塑膠袋管制的政策已經7年了你們應該檢討第一個要檢討要擴大現用然後你說了開發票的要用那我們現在講說擴大現用第二個已經現用的是不是也應該進一步到禁用\n\n34\n00:12:57,343 --> 00:13:15,655\n進用那我們還有一個第三個這個政策上的建議就是說擴大使用兩用袋即便是現用的你不要再用買買一個那個就是擴大使用兩用袋你看看守台灣去做說那你拿回家的問民眾拿回家的塑膠袋你做什麼他們說我拿回去裝垃圾\n\n35\n00:13:18,277 --> 00:13:31,966\n然後他調查了雙北地區的人他75%的人也是拿回去當垃圾袋使用有可能在雙北裡面他們其實是購買了兩用袋兩用袋回去再當成他本來就要買垃圾袋還可以繼續使用這樣隨袋徵收所以當然擴大使用兩用袋的前提必須是擴大垃圾費隨袋徵收的基礎\n\n36\n00:13:45,532 --> 00:14:00,097\n所以兩...限塑政策裡面你擴大使用兩用袋兩袋合一成為非常重要的這個政策配套在雙北是不是應該要這樣...應該強制規範下去可不可以?署長有沒有困難?他已經隨來徵收了嘛但我們如果要限塑政策的塑那必須是兩用袋\n\n37\n00:14:12,264 --> 00:14:24,467\n我們現在是給各縣市特別直轄縣市他們找一些示範點先來推雙北已經都是了我們都隨帶徵收了而且隨帶徵收的地區的家戶垃圾的產出的量比隨水徵收的減少一半啦一半啦真的隨帶徵收的垃圾減半然後回收加倍大家都知道是有效的\n\n38\n00:14:40,532 --> 00:14:45,516\n而且大家都以為隨隨徵收垃圾買垃圾袋很貴隨隨徵收比較方便事實上隨著垃圾的減量以後隨代徵收所買的垃圾袋的費用比隨隨徵收時代還更便宜\n\n39\n00:14:56,405 --> 00:14:56,645\n林淑芬議員\n\n40\n00:15:16,218 --> 00:15:42,056\n一般廢棄物清除處理徵收辦法第三條他的規定其實是可以處理由中央定政策地方政府覺得選舉到了他不敢不敢但是我們認為說啊其實中央如果再大刀闊斧一點的話為了台灣的環境而且我們沒有那麼多的處理量能永遠都是分化把它分化那麼多的家戶垃圾垃圾要源頭減量\n\n41\n00:15:43,357 --> 00:16:03,621\n然後要增加回收然後呢限塑禁用的目的是我們要在源頭減量使用這些塑膠一次性的用品嘛所以要有效的政策有效的政策中央喔電現在不敢做了其實他們沒經驗看雙倍來看威樂世代是電到臂水水增收收服的錢更加少\n\n42\n00:16:12,148 --> 00:16:37,191\n李佳垃圾會減量而且這個國家的廢棄物的管理會更好回收的會更多這個是這樣子最後抱歉給我最後一分鐘半分鐘我講一個農用塑膠膜的問題因為亂象很多而且焚化、掩埋、非法棄置、污染在海邊、海邊的垃圾大部分都農用塑膠膜非常多\n\n43\n00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:51,682\n大概就是因為它沾染土壤所以這個人力清洗不容易所以廠商不願意回收我是希望環境部應該去考慮公告為應回收物品因為的確這個量很大對環境衝擊很大然後請責任業者要繳交這個回收清除處理費不管輸入的或製造的責任業者通通要繳錢\n\n44\n00:17:05,405 --> 00:17:18,678\n腳結以後回收就有基金會給付有基金會給付才有意願才會進入一個好的循環這個事情已經到一個很嚴重的地步了知事體大謝謝好謝謝林委員部長你可以留著啦比較正經的人留的比較好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6924\t31613\t主席各位大家午安是不是來請我們薛部長好請部長林委員好部長剛才聽說你520之後就你個人意願上並沒有很想要留下來服務是的已經這個也因為我必須做抉擇因為我也已經65歲了所以\n32510\t37656\t我覺得有點可惜,因為到目前為止,我認為第一個你有專業第二個你跟業者保持的距離還蠻不錯的,保持適當的距離而不是太過於親近你知道這個部門最大的問題就是行政部門跟業者搞得太親近了,這個事情就不太好了\n53172\t72517\t但我覺得你應該是很適任的就是說跟業者保持一定的距離然後又有專業所以其實我們國家的部門我們更期待是你可以留下來這個是題外話但我現在講的是限塑的政策我們看得到一次性的塑膠用品不減反增\n74077\t94738\t但是我要講幾個數字根據歐盟2021年統計每年大概有500萬到1300萬公噸的塑膠垃圾進入海洋其中一次性的塑膠產品佔了50%以上這是歐盟的那台灣呢?台灣的本土研究你有看到嗎?是\n99413\t120083\t荒野保護協會他們在2023年荒野保護協會他們進行了穿廢快篩調查計畫他調查了淡水河把淡水河從上游新天溪、大安溪、基隆河到下游淡水河到出海口一共283公里的全河域調查他做成了\n120763\t141133\t然後在這個調查結果他們發現河岸段垃圾量成長2020到2023年成長高達一倍台灣的環境至少河川塑膠的這個垃圾成長高達一倍而這裡面一次性的飲食廢棄物高達七成\n142796\t167068\t那他們進一步去比較2020跟2023年這些數據這兩次做的數據他們顯示第一個2020的時候呢每公里就河邊啦每公里平均有73袋的垃圾一袋是14公升所以大概一公里平均有一公噸一公噸的這個垃圾然後到2023年變成156袋大概有2.18噸\n171971\t172231\t提供的報告\n196949\t222037\t是我們生活當中一次性的飲食廢棄物那此外呢他堆置的地點大概就是河川的下游河道的交會處趕潮斷這熱點是什麼呢熱點就是特別集中在幾個重要的地標比如說關渡大橋社址島的基隆河岸還有盧州淡水河沿線的步道就是下游還有這個兩河交會處這樣子\n225819\t230969\t我們在這看這個是下游他們去做的調查但從源頭來看從生產垃圾袋的源頭來看的確也是如此\n236704\t238265\t從塑膠袋生產的源頭來看這個調查數據徹底的反映了這個真實性經濟部統計處的調查從100年起到現在塑膠袋的生產量、銷售量還有內銷量幾乎也是跟著逐年上升100年的時候塑膠袋生產量是19.3萬公噸\n264203\t265744\t110年生產量是從19萬變成31.6萬公噸生產幅度高達1.6倍然後100年的時候這個19萬.3公噸裡面它內銷是14.2萬公噸\n284341\t309878\t然後111年31.6萬公噸裡面內銷使用是20萬公噸所以塑膠袋的內銷銷售量也成長了1.5倍那在這種數據裡面我們覺得是奇怪限塑政策越限越多使用越多啊所以我們都知道100年就是我們限塑政策的起點啊\n311311\t331799\t然後卻越用越多,那部長這個對越用越多、限塑政策越限越多結果越用越多,這個你有什麼樣的想法和政策上的檢討嗎?給林委員報告,這個剛剛林委員的分析非常重要,事實上我們過去一段時間我跟我們的資源型懷屬\n332899\t361070\t就是密集的在開會應該要從源頭剛剛林委員這個講到的分布事實上有將近70%事實上是我們民眾拋棄的使用過的這些東西一次性對一次性的所以這個反而是一個重點那一次性基本上也要從源頭來去做減量你就是這樣子你很認真我發現你很認真你也掌握啊很認真很累齁\n362750\t387452\t還好吧很認真很累但是你要掌握一次性的這個消費行為就牽扯到生意喔就要牽扯到商家喔對啊所以這個挑戰度就在這邊很高喔所以你就很累你想走了喔沒有沒有沒有沒有人家問你所以你說你不想留著因為認真又正經操守又正經的人其實是不容易的我知道但我現在在這裡是要鼓勵你其實\n388493\t404138\t最好是繼續留下來為環境努力因為有專業很認真又政經八百的人不跟業者混在一起的人很少我現在要講這一個好我現在不是要講你我要講這個政策\n405098\t412400\t國家永續會他們為了這個我們自己的為了呼籲這個聯合國永續發展目標訂出了幾個核心目標幾個具體目標我簡單的來講一次性用品有關的指標當時永續會就是訂出來2020年減到每年每人使用400個塑膠袋\n427884\t437555\t到2030年每個人要每年限制希望能夠有一個具體目標是要達到每年每人使用100個但是這樣的部長這樣的減量目標實際上執行的狀況怎麼樣20年已經到了\n450230\t452152\t市長2020年現在撿到幾個?我們現在是每年大概用100億個每年每人幾個?不是他講的是total100億不是\n467936\t489863\t總共101對現在每年每人2022年計是430個那現在剩下6年就2030年了每人每年要使用100個塑膠袋就這樣子挑戰度很高那你這樣的減量目標你的具體的執行政策路徑要怎麼樣做?署長你有沒有更具體的?\n492375\t514046\t事實上這個給林委員報告這一點就是我們一直這個對於包括傳統市場包括癱瘓包括夜市事實上它是塑膠在使用裡面的在某一個程度可以說是這個漏網之一也不是我們不是啦對啦你知道在那裡你要怎麼做\n515206\t543281\t這一點我們事實上給一個時間點大概明年我們先預告那未來我想包括以量以價值量好那我你是說你要預告要限塑囉對你講的是攤販喔對攤販跟傳統式的現在還沒有列管的有店面的餐飲業現在是只有這個連鎖啦超商啦連鎖的那個還有文具啦洗衣店飲料洗點麵包只要開花票的\n543561\t571628\t只要開發票的開始列入了你現在都要列入了早餐店呢?沒有開發票的早餐店呢?早餐店的熱搜大中欸早餐店那個也是一個很頭痛的問題就是跟傳統市場那個一樣那列在下一波大概114年我們希望這個明年這是你個人的看法還是說這個整體的部裡面的政策我們有在談啦有好幾個互換啦那接下來就看看可是你不留下來啊\n572833\t592487\t我可以提供意見我現在要講這個是因為Consul台灣在2023年他們已經對民眾大家政策不敢推行的主要理由都說啊這個民眾不支持啦到底是民眾不支持還是政策怠惰不敢做誤以為民眾支持那我們要拿出數據啊數據會講話\n595289\t619944\t2023年看守台灣對民眾進行了購物用塑膠提袋的使用習慣及政策意向問卷調查。調查結果指出有九成八的民眾支持全面禁用一次性的購物用塑膠袋。如果全面限用的話就不得免費提供只是限用而不是禁用喔限用它只是你沒有袋你要再用塑膠袋要買而已喔\n620504\t634792\t但是是98%同意一次性的那9393%的民眾支持塑膠袋收費應該使用於垃圾減量措施及或垃圾費這是民間做的但是官方你們也有做\n636052\t656829\t環境部部長你知道也有做嗎2018年也針對限塑進行民意調查第一個你們問請問你支不支持政府未來擴大管制所有開發票的店家都不能免費提供購物用塑膠袋且需付錢購買部長你知道你們這個贊成的比例有多高嗎\n661410\t668189\t我現在講這個是你們做的事實上很高你們自己做的你知道嗎你們不知道好沒關係我告訴你\n669517\t688349\t高達八成的民眾針對這項政策持肯定的評價而且有近六成五的受訪者認為不是只有針對開發票的應該還要繼續擴大管制業市攤販及市場的塑膠袋使用65%的受訪者認為應該要這樣子然後你們還做了網路調查有七成的受訪者針對這個政策持正面肯定的評價由此可見\n699156\t719174\t現做的政策以廣為國人接受而且大多數人都支持以價質量的方式擴大管制對象減少廢棄物產生而且你們過去就講過你講的沒錯你2018年就講104年開始要全面限用購物用提待2030年要全面禁用\n719935\t746762\t本來你們2018年的政策是這樣子而現在不論是亞洲或歐盟包括法國是全面禁用在韓國的量販店、超市、大型商場他們不是限塑,他們是禁用英國把購物袋那個塑膠袋的價格大幅提高所以顯示限塑已經是國際潮流而且人家已經走到禁塑了禁用了那我也是希望部長環境部應該更勇敢一點\n747762\t775922\t不要用呼籲的呼籲就不是辦法嘛事實上要拿出真正的政策來我們離上一次的塑膠袋管制的政策已經7年了你們應該檢討第一個要檢討要擴大現用然後你說了開發票的要用那我們現在講說擴大現用第二個已經現用的是不是也應該進一步到禁用\n777343\t795655\t進用那我們還有一個第三個這個政策上的建議就是說擴大使用兩用袋即便是現用的你不要再用買買一個那個就是擴大使用兩用袋你看看守台灣去做說那你拿回家的問民眾拿回家的塑膠袋你做什麼他們說我拿回去裝垃圾\n798277\t811966\t然後他調查了雙北地區的人他75%的人也是拿回去當垃圾袋使用有可能在雙北裡面他們其實是購買了兩用袋兩用袋回去再當成他本來就要買垃圾袋還可以繼續使用這樣隨袋徵收所以當然擴大使用兩用袋的前提必須是擴大垃圾費隨袋徵收的基礎\n825532\t840097\t所以兩...限塑政策裡面你擴大使用兩用袋兩袋合一成為非常重要的這個政策配套在雙北是不是應該要這樣...應該強制規範下去可不可以?署長有沒有困難?他已經隨來徵收了嘛但我們如果要限塑政策的塑那必須是兩用袋\n852264\t864467\t我們現在是給各縣市特別直轄縣市他們找一些示範點先來推雙北已經都是了我們都隨帶徵收了而且隨帶徵收的地區的家戶垃圾的產出的量比隨水徵收的減少一半啦一半啦真的隨帶徵收的垃圾減半然後回收加倍大家都知道是有效的\n880532\t885516\t而且大家都以為隨隨徵收垃圾買垃圾袋很貴隨隨徵收比較方便事實上隨著垃圾的減量以後隨代徵收所買的垃圾袋的費用比隨隨徵收時代還更便宜\n896405\t896645\t林淑芬議員\n916218\t942056\t一般廢棄物清除處理徵收辦法第三條他的規定其實是可以處理由中央定政策地方政府覺得選舉到了他不敢不敢但是我們認為說啊其實中央如果再大刀闊斧一點的話為了台灣的環境而且我們沒有那麼多的處理量能永遠都是分化把它分化那麼多的家戶垃圾垃圾要源頭減量\n943357\t963621\t然後要增加回收然後呢限塑禁用的目的是我們要在源頭減量使用這些塑膠一次性的用品嘛所以要有效的政策有效的政策中央喔 電 現在不敢做了其實他們沒經驗 看雙倍來看威樂世代是電到臂水水增收 收服的錢更加少\n972148\t997191\t李佳垃圾會減量而且這個國家的廢棄物的管理會更好回收的會更多這個是這樣子最後抱歉給我最後一分鐘半分鐘我講一個農用塑膠膜的問題因為亂象很多而且焚化、掩埋、非法棄置、污染在海邊、海邊的垃圾大部分都農用塑膠膜非常多\n999040\t1011682\t大概就是因為它沾染土壤所以這個人力清洗不容易所以廠商不願意回收我是希望環境部應該去考慮公告為應回收物品因為的確這個量很大對環境衝擊很大然後請責任業者要繳交這個回收清除處理費不管輸入的或製造的責任業者通通要繳錢\n1025405\t1038678\t腳結以後回收就有基金會給付有基金會給付才有意願才會進入一個好的循環這個事情已經到一個很嚴重的地步了知事體大謝謝好 謝謝林委員部長你可以留著啦 比較正經的人留的比較好\n","txt":"主席各位大家午安是不是來請我們薛部長好請部長林委員好部長剛才聽說你520之後就你個人意願上並沒有很想要留下來服務是的已經這個也因為我必須做抉擇因為我也已經65歲了所以\n我覺得有點可惜,因為到目前為止,我認為第一個你有專業第二個你跟業者保持的距離還蠻不錯的,保持適當的距離而不是太過於親近你知道這個部門最大的問題就是行政部門跟業者搞得太親近了,這個事情就不太好了\n但我覺得你應該是很適任的就是說跟業者保持一定的距離然後又有專業所以其實我們國家的部門我們更期待是你可以留下來這個是題外話但我現在講的是限塑的政策我們看得到一次性的塑膠用品不減反增\n但是我要講幾個數字根據歐盟2021年統計每年大概有500萬到1300萬公噸的塑膠垃圾進入海洋其中一次性的塑膠產品佔了50%以上這是歐盟的那台灣呢?台灣的本土研究你有看到嗎?是\n荒野保護協會他們在2023年荒野保護協會他們進行了穿廢快篩調查計畫他調查了淡水河把淡水河從上游新天溪、大安溪、基隆河到下游淡水河到出海口一共283公里的全河域調查他做成了\n然後在這個調查結果他們發現河岸段垃圾量成長2020到2023年成長高達一倍台灣的環境至少河川塑膠的這個垃圾成長高達一倍而這裡面一次性的飲食廢棄物高達七成\n那他們進一步去比較2020跟2023年這些數據這兩次做的數據他們顯示第一個2020的時候呢每公里就河邊啦每公里平均有73袋的垃圾一袋是14公升所以大概一公里平均有一公噸一公噸的這個垃圾然後到2023年變成156袋大概有2.18噸\n提供的報告\n是我們生活當中一次性的飲食廢棄物那此外呢他堆置的地點大概就是河川的下游河道的交會處趕潮斷這熱點是什麼呢熱點就是特別集中在幾個重要的地標比如說關渡大橋社址島的基隆河岸還有盧州淡水河沿線的步道就是下游還有這個兩河交會處這樣子\n我們在這看這個是下游他們去做的調查但從源頭來看從生產垃圾袋的源頭來看的確也是如此\n從塑膠袋生產的源頭來看這個調查數據徹底的反映了這個真實性經濟部統計處的調查從100年起到現在塑膠袋的生產量、銷售量還有內銷量幾乎也是跟著逐年上升100年的時候塑膠袋生產量是19.3萬公噸\n110年生產量是從19萬變成31.6萬公噸生產幅度高達1.6倍然後100年的時候這個19萬.3公噸裡面它內銷是14.2萬公噸\n然後111年31.6萬公噸裡面內銷使用是20萬公噸所以塑膠袋的內銷銷售量也成長了1.5倍那在這種數據裡面我們覺得是奇怪限塑政策越限越多使用越多啊所以我們都知道100年就是我們限塑政策的起點啊\n然後卻越用越多,那部長這個對越用越多、限塑政策越限越多結果越用越多,這個你有什麼樣的想法和政策上的檢討嗎?給林委員報告,這個剛剛林委員的分析非常重要,事實上我們過去一段時間我跟我們的資源型懷屬\n就是密集的在開會應該要從源頭剛剛林委員這個講到的分布事實上有將近70%事實上是我們民眾拋棄的使用過的這些東西一次性對一次性的所以這個反而是一個重點那一次性基本上也要從源頭來去做減量你就是這樣子你很認真我發現你很認真你也掌握啊很認真很累齁\n還好吧很認真很累但是你要掌握一次性的這個消費行為就牽扯到生意喔就要牽扯到商家喔對啊所以這個挑戰度就在這邊很高喔所以你就很累你想走了喔沒有沒有沒有沒有人家問你所以你說你不想留著因為認真又正經操守又正經的人其實是不容易的我知道但我現在在這裡是要鼓勵你其實\n最好是繼續留下來為環境努力因為有專業很認真又政經八百的人不跟業者混在一起的人很少我現在要講這一個好我現在不是要講你我要講這個政策\n國家永續會他們為了這個我們自己的為了呼籲這個聯合國永續發展目標訂出了幾個核心目標幾個具體目標我簡單的來講一次性用品有關的指標當時永續會就是訂出來2020年減到每年每人使用400個塑膠袋\n到2030年每個人要每年限制希望能夠有一個具體目標是要達到每年每人使用100個但是這樣的部長這樣的減量目標實際上執行的狀況怎麼樣20年已經到了\n市長2020年現在撿到幾個?我們現在是每年大概用100億個每年每人幾個?不是他講的是total100億不是\n總共101對現在每年每人2022年計是430個那現在剩下6年就2030年了每人每年要使用100個塑膠袋就這樣子挑戰度很高那你這樣的減量目標你的具體的執行政策路徑要怎麼樣做?署長你有沒有更具體的?\n事實上這個給林委員報告這一點就是我們一直這個對於包括傳統市場包括癱瘓包括夜市事實上它是塑膠在使用裡面的在某一個程度可以說是這個漏網之一也不是我們不是啦對啦你知道在那裡你要怎麼做\n這一點我們事實上給一個時間點大概明年我們先預告那未來我想包括以量以價值量好那我你是說你要預告要限塑囉對你講的是攤販喔對攤販跟傳統式的現在還沒有列管的有店面的餐飲業現在是只有這個連鎖啦超商啦連鎖的那個還有文具啦洗衣店飲料洗點麵包只要開花票的\n只要開發票的開始列入了你現在都要列入了早餐店呢?沒有開發票的早餐店呢?早餐店的熱搜大中欸早餐店那個也是一個很頭痛的問題就是跟傳統市場那個一樣那列在下一波大概114年我們希望這個明年這是你個人的看法還是說這個整體的部裡面的政策我們有在談啦有好幾個互換啦那接下來就看看可是你不留下來啊\n我可以提供意見我現在要講這個是因為Consul台灣在2023年他們已經對民眾大家政策不敢推行的主要理由都說啊這個民眾不支持啦到底是民眾不支持還是政策怠惰不敢做誤以為民眾支持那我們要拿出數據啊數據會講話\n2023年看守台灣對民眾進行了購物用塑膠提袋的使用習慣及政策意向問卷調查。調查結果指出有九成八的民眾支持全面禁用一次性的購物用塑膠袋。如果全面限用的話就不得免費提供只是限用而不是禁用喔限用它只是你沒有袋你要再用塑膠袋要買而已喔\n但是是98%同意一次性的那9393%的民眾支持塑膠袋收費應該使用於垃圾減量措施及或垃圾費這是民間做的但是官方你們也有做\n環境部部長你知道也有做嗎2018年也針對限塑進行民意調查第一個你們問請問你支不支持政府未來擴大管制所有開發票的店家都不能免費提供購物用塑膠袋且需付錢購買部長你知道你們這個贊成的比例有多高嗎\n我現在講這個是你們做的事實上很高你們自己做的你知道嗎你們不知道好沒關係我告訴你\n高達八成的民眾針對這項政策持肯定的評價而且有近六成五的受訪者認為不是只有針對開發票的應該還要繼續擴大管制業市攤販及市場的塑膠袋使用65%的受訪者認為應該要這樣子然後你們還做了網路調查有七成的受訪者針對這個政策持正面肯定的評價由此可見\n現做的政策以廣為國人接受而且大多數人都支持以價質量的方式擴大管制對象減少廢棄物產生而且你們過去就講過你講的沒錯你2018年就講104年開始要全面限用購物用提待2030年要全面禁用\n本來你們2018年的政策是這樣子而現在不論是亞洲或歐盟包括法國是全面禁用在韓國的量販店、超市、大型商場他們不是限塑,他們是禁用英國把購物袋那個塑膠袋的價格大幅提高所以顯示限塑已經是國際潮流而且人家已經走到禁塑了禁用了那我也是希望部長環境部應該更勇敢一點\n不要用呼籲的呼籲就不是辦法嘛事實上要拿出真正的政策來我們離上一次的塑膠袋管制的政策已經7年了你們應該檢討第一個要檢討要擴大現用然後你說了開發票的要用那我們現在講說擴大現用第二個已經現用的是不是也應該進一步到禁用\n進用那我們還有一個第三個這個政策上的建議就是說擴大使用兩用袋即便是現用的你不要再用買買一個那個就是擴大使用兩用袋你看看守台灣去做說那你拿回家的問民眾拿回家的塑膠袋你做什麼他們說我拿回去裝垃圾\n然後他調查了雙北地區的人他75%的人也是拿回去當垃圾袋使用有可能在雙北裡面他們其實是購買了兩用袋兩用袋回去再當成他本來就要買垃圾袋還可以繼續使用這樣隨袋徵收所以當然擴大使用兩用袋的前提必須是擴大垃圾費隨袋徵收的基礎\n所以兩...限塑政策裡面你擴大使用兩用袋兩袋合一成為非常重要的這個政策配套在雙北是不是應該要這樣...應該強制規範下去可不可以?署長有沒有困難?他已經隨來徵收了嘛但我們如果要限塑政策的塑那必須是兩用袋\n我們現在是給各縣市特別直轄縣市他們找一些示範點先來推雙北已經都是了我們都隨帶徵收了而且隨帶徵收的地區的家戶垃圾的產出的量比隨水徵收的減少一半啦一半啦真的隨帶徵收的垃圾減半然後回收加倍大家都知道是有效的\n而且大家都以為隨隨徵收垃圾買垃圾袋很貴隨隨徵收比較方便事實上隨著垃圾的減量以後隨代徵收所買的垃圾袋的費用比隨隨徵收時代還更便宜\n林淑芬議員\n一般廢棄物清除處理徵收辦法第三條他的規定其實是可以處理由中央定政策地方政府覺得選舉到了他不敢不敢但是我們認為說啊其實中央如果再大刀闊斧一點的話為了台灣的環境而且我們沒有那麼多的處理量能永遠都是分化把它分化那麼多的家戶垃圾垃圾要源頭減量\n然後要增加回收然後呢限塑禁用的目的是我們要在源頭減量使用這些塑膠一次性的用品嘛所以要有效的政策有效的政策中央喔 電 現在不敢做了其實他們沒經驗 看雙倍來看威樂世代是電到臂水水增收 收服的錢更加少\n李佳垃圾會減量而且這個國家的廢棄物的管理會更好回收的會更多這個是這樣子最後抱歉給我最後一分鐘半分鐘我講一個農用塑膠膜的問題因為亂象很多而且焚化、掩埋、非法棄置、污染在海邊、海邊的垃圾大部分都農用塑膠膜非常多\n大概就是因為它沾染土壤所以這個人力清洗不容易所以廠商不願意回收我是希望環境部應該去考慮公告為應回收物品因為的確這個量很大對環境衝擊很大然後請責任業者要繳交這個回收清除處理費不管輸入的或製造的責任業者通通要繳錢\n腳結以後回收就有基金會給付有基金會給付才有意願才會進入一個好的循環這個事情已經到一個很嚴重的地步了知事體大謝謝好 謝謝林委員部長你可以留著啦 比較正經的人留的比較好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.924 --> 00:31.613\n主席各位大家午安是不是來請我們薛部長好請部長林委員好部長剛才聽說你520之後就你個人意願上並沒有很想要留下來服務是的已經這個也因為我必須做抉擇因為我也已經65歲了所以\n\n00:32.510 --> 00:37.656\n我覺得有點可惜,因為到目前為止,我認為第一個你有專業第二個你跟業者保持的距離還蠻不錯的,保持適當的距離而不是太過於親近你知道這個部門最大的問題就是行政部門跟業者搞得太親近了,這個事情就不太好了\n\n00:53.172 --> 01:12.517\n但我覺得你應該是很適任的就是說跟業者保持一定的距離然後又有專業所以其實我們國家的部門我們更期待是你可以留下來這個是題外話但我現在講的是限塑的政策我們看得到一次性的塑膠用品不減反增\n\n01:14.077 --> 01:34.738\n但是我要講幾個數字根據歐盟2021年統計每年大概有500萬到1300萬公噸的塑膠垃圾進入海洋其中一次性的塑膠產品佔了50%以上這是歐盟的那台灣呢?台灣的本土研究你有看到嗎?是\n\n01:39.413 --> 02:00.083\n荒野保護協會他們在2023年荒野保護協會他們進行了穿廢快篩調查計畫他調查了淡水河把淡水河從上游新天溪、大安溪、基隆河到下游淡水河到出海口一共283公里的全河域調查他做成了\n\n02:00.763 --> 02:21.133\n然後在這個調查結果他們發現河岸段垃圾量成長2020到2023年成長高達一倍台灣的環境至少河川塑膠的這個垃圾成長高達一倍而這裡面一次性的飲食廢棄物高達七成\n\n02:22.796 --> 02:47.068\n那他們進一步去比較2020跟2023年這些數據這兩次做的數據他們顯示第一個2020的時候呢每公里就河邊啦每公里平均有73袋的垃圾一袋是14公升所以大概一公里平均有一公噸一公噸的這個垃圾然後到2023年變成156袋大概有2.18噸\n\n02:51.971 --> 02:52.231\n提供的報告\n\n03:16.949 --> 03:42.037\n是我們生活當中一次性的飲食廢棄物那此外呢他堆置的地點大概就是河川的下游河道的交會處趕潮斷這熱點是什麼呢熱點就是特別集中在幾個重要的地標比如說關渡大橋社址島的基隆河岸還有盧州淡水河沿線的步道就是下游還有這個兩河交會處這樣子\n\n03:45.819 --> 03:50.969\n我們在這看這個是下游他們去做的調查但從源頭來看從生產垃圾袋的源頭來看的確也是如此\n\n03:56.704 --> 03:58.265\n從塑膠袋生產的源頭來看這個調查數據徹底的反映了這個真實性經濟部統計處的調查從100年起到現在塑膠袋的生產量、銷售量還有內銷量幾乎也是跟著逐年上升100年的時候塑膠袋生產量是19.3萬公噸\n\n04:24.203 --> 04:25.744\n110年生產量是從19萬變成31.6萬公噸生產幅度高達1.6倍然後100年的時候這個19萬.3公噸裡面它內銷是14.2萬公噸\n\n04:44.341 --> 05:09.878\n然後111年31.6萬公噸裡面內銷使用是20萬公噸所以塑膠袋的內銷銷售量也成長了1.5倍那在這種數據裡面我們覺得是奇怪限塑政策越限越多使用越多啊所以我們都知道100年就是我們限塑政策的起點啊\n\n05:11.311 --> 05:31.799\n然後卻越用越多,那部長這個對越用越多、限塑政策越限越多結果越用越多,這個你有什麼樣的想法和政策上的檢討嗎?給林委員報告,這個剛剛林委員的分析非常重要,事實上我們過去一段時間我跟我們的資源型懷屬\n\n05:32.899 --> 06:01.070\n就是密集的在開會應該要從源頭剛剛林委員這個講到的分布事實上有將近70%事實上是我們民眾拋棄的使用過的這些東西一次性對一次性的所以這個反而是一個重點那一次性基本上也要從源頭來去做減量你就是這樣子你很認真我發現你很認真你也掌握啊很認真很累齁\n\n06:02.750 --> 06:27.452\n還好吧很認真很累但是你要掌握一次性的這個消費行為就牽扯到生意喔就要牽扯到商家喔對啊所以這個挑戰度就在這邊很高喔所以你就很累你想走了喔沒有沒有沒有沒有人家問你所以你說你不想留著因為認真又正經操守又正經的人其實是不容易的我知道但我現在在這裡是要鼓勵你其實\n\n06:28.493 --> 06:44.138\n最好是繼續留下來為環境努力因為有專業很認真又政經八百的人不跟業者混在一起的人很少我現在要講這一個好我現在不是要講你我要講這個政策\n\n06:45.098 --> 06:52.400\n國家永續會他們為了這個我們自己的為了呼籲這個聯合國永續發展目標訂出了幾個核心目標幾個具體目標我簡單的來講一次性用品有關的指標當時永續會就是訂出來2020年減到每年每人使用400個塑膠袋\n\n07:07.884 --> 07:17.555\n到2030年每個人要每年限制希望能夠有一個具體目標是要達到每年每人使用100個但是這樣的部長這樣的減量目標實際上執行的狀況怎麼樣20年已經到了\n\n07:30.230 --> 07:32.152\n市長2020年現在撿到幾個?我們現在是每年大概用100億個每年每人幾個?不是他講的是total100億不是\n\n07:47.936 --> 08:09.863\n總共101對現在每年每人2022年計是430個那現在剩下6年就2030年了每人每年要使用100個塑膠袋就這樣子挑戰度很高那你這樣的減量目標你的具體的執行政策路徑要怎麼樣做?署長你有沒有更具體的?\n\n08:12.375 --> 08:34.046\n事實上這個給林委員報告這一點就是我們一直這個對於包括傳統市場包括癱瘓包括夜市事實上它是塑膠在使用裡面的在某一個程度可以說是這個漏網之一也不是我們不是啦對啦你知道在那裡你要怎麼做\n\n08:35.206 --> 09:03.281\n這一點我們事實上給一個時間點大概明年我們先預告那未來我想包括以量以價值量好那我你是說你要預告要限塑囉對你講的是攤販喔對攤販跟傳統式的現在還沒有列管的有店面的餐飲業現在是只有這個連鎖啦超商啦連鎖的那個還有文具啦洗衣店飲料洗點麵包只要開花票的\n\n09:03.561 --> 09:31.628\n只要開發票的開始列入了你現在都要列入了早餐店呢?沒有開發票的早餐店呢?早餐店的熱搜大中欸早餐店那個也是一個很頭痛的問題就是跟傳統市場那個一樣那列在下一波大概114年我們希望這個明年這是你個人的看法還是說這個整體的部裡面的政策我們有在談啦有好幾個互換啦那接下來就看看可是你不留下來啊\n\n09:32.833 --> 09:52.487\n我可以提供意見我現在要講這個是因為Consul台灣在2023年他們已經對民眾大家政策不敢推行的主要理由都說啊這個民眾不支持啦到底是民眾不支持還是政策怠惰不敢做誤以為民眾支持那我們要拿出數據啊數據會講話\n\n09:55.289 --> 10:19.944\n2023年看守台灣對民眾進行了購物用塑膠提袋的使用習慣及政策意向問卷調查。調查結果指出有九成八的民眾支持全面禁用一次性的購物用塑膠袋。如果全面限用的話就不得免費提供只是限用而不是禁用喔限用它只是你沒有袋你要再用塑膠袋要買而已喔\n\n10:20.504 --> 10:34.792\n但是是98%同意一次性的那9393%的民眾支持塑膠袋收費應該使用於垃圾減量措施及或垃圾費這是民間做的但是官方你們也有做\n\n10:36.052 --> 10:56.829\n環境部部長你知道也有做嗎2018年也針對限塑進行民意調查第一個你們問請問你支不支持政府未來擴大管制所有開發票的店家都不能免費提供購物用塑膠袋且需付錢購買部長你知道你們這個贊成的比例有多高嗎\n\n11:01.410 --> 11:08.189\n我現在講這個是你們做的事實上很高你們自己做的你知道嗎你們不知道好沒關係我告訴你\n\n11:09.517 --> 11:28.349\n高達八成的民眾針對這項政策持肯定的評價而且有近六成五的受訪者認為不是只有針對開發票的應該還要繼續擴大管制業市攤販及市場的塑膠袋使用65%的受訪者認為應該要這樣子然後你們還做了網路調查有七成的受訪者針對這個政策持正面肯定的評價由此可見\n\n11:39.156 --> 11:59.174\n現做的政策以廣為國人接受而且大多數人都支持以價質量的方式擴大管制對象減少廢棄物產生而且你們過去就講過你講的沒錯你2018年就講104年開始要全面限用購物用提待2030年要全面禁用\n\n11:59.935 --> 12:26.762\n本來你們2018年的政策是這樣子而現在不論是亞洲或歐盟包括法國是全面禁用在韓國的量販店、超市、大型商場他們不是限塑,他們是禁用英國把購物袋那個塑膠袋的價格大幅提高所以顯示限塑已經是國際潮流而且人家已經走到禁塑了禁用了那我也是希望部長環境部應該更勇敢一點\n\n12:27.762 --> 12:55.922\n不要用呼籲的呼籲就不是辦法嘛事實上要拿出真正的政策來我們離上一次的塑膠袋管制的政策已經7年了你們應該檢討第一個要檢討要擴大現用然後你說了開發票的要用那我們現在講說擴大現用第二個已經現用的是不是也應該進一步到禁用\n\n12:57.343 --> 13:15.655\n進用那我們還有一個第三個這個政策上的建議就是說擴大使用兩用袋即便是現用的你不要再用買買一個那個就是擴大使用兩用袋你看看守台灣去做說那你拿回家的問民眾拿回家的塑膠袋你做什麼他們說我拿回去裝垃圾\n\n13:18.277 --> 13:31.966\n然後他調查了雙北地區的人他75%的人也是拿回去當垃圾袋使用有可能在雙北裡面他們其實是購買了兩用袋兩用袋回去再當成他本來就要買垃圾袋還可以繼續使用這樣隨袋徵收所以當然擴大使用兩用袋的前提必須是擴大垃圾費隨袋徵收的基礎\n\n13:45.532 --> 14:00.097\n所以兩...限塑政策裡面你擴大使用兩用袋兩袋合一成為非常重要的這個政策配套在雙北是不是應該要這樣...應該強制規範下去可不可以?署長有沒有困難?他已經隨來徵收了嘛但我們如果要限塑政策的塑那必須是兩用袋\n\n14:12.264 --> 14:24.467\n我們現在是給各縣市特別直轄縣市他們找一些示範點先來推雙北已經都是了我們都隨帶徵收了而且隨帶徵收的地區的家戶垃圾的產出的量比隨水徵收的減少一半啦一半啦真的隨帶徵收的垃圾減半然後回收加倍大家都知道是有效的\n\n14:40.532 --> 14:45.516\n而且大家都以為隨隨徵收垃圾買垃圾袋很貴隨隨徵收比較方便事實上隨著垃圾的減量以後隨代徵收所買的垃圾袋的費用比隨隨徵收時代還更便宜\n\n14:56.405 --> 14:56.645\n林淑芬議員\n\n15:16.218 --> 15:42.056\n一般廢棄物清除處理徵收辦法第三條他的規定其實是可以處理由中央定政策地方政府覺得選舉到了他不敢不敢但是我們認為說啊其實中央如果再大刀闊斧一點的話為了台灣的環境而且我們沒有那麼多的處理量能永遠都是分化把它分化那麼多的家戶垃圾垃圾要源頭減量\n\n15:43.357 --> 16:03.621\n然後要增加回收然後呢限塑禁用的目的是我們要在源頭減量使用這些塑膠一次性的用品嘛所以要有效的政策有效的政策中央喔電現在不敢做了其實他們沒經驗看雙倍來看威樂世代是電到臂水水增收收服的錢更加少\n\n16:12.148 --> 16:37.191\n李佳垃圾會減量而且這個國家的廢棄物的管理會更好回收的會更多這個是這樣子最後抱歉給我最後一分鐘半分鐘我講一個農用塑膠膜的問題因為亂象很多而且焚化、掩埋、非法棄置、污染在海邊、海邊的垃圾大部分都農用塑膠膜非常多\n\n16:39.040 --> 16:51.682\n大概就是因為它沾染土壤所以這個人力清洗不容易所以廠商不願意回收我是希望環境部應該去考慮公告為應回收物品因為的確這個量很大對環境衝擊很大然後請責任業者要繳交這個回收清除處理費不管輸入的或製造的責任業者通通要繳錢\n\n17:05.405 --> 17:18.678\n腳結以後回收就有基金會給付有基金會給付才有意願才會進入一個好的循環這個事情已經到一個很嚴重的地步了知事體大謝謝好謝謝林委員部長你可以留著啦比較正經的人留的比較好\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.924,"end":31.613,"text":"主席各位大家午安是不是來請我們薛部長好請部長林委員好部長剛才聽說你520之後就你個人意願上並沒有很想要留下來服務是的已經這個也因為我必須做抉擇因為我也已經65歲了所以"},{"start":32.51,"end":37.656,"text":"我覺得有點可惜,因為到目前為止,我認為第一個你有專業第二個你跟業者保持的距離還蠻不錯的,保持適當的距離而不是太過於親近你知道這個部門最大的問題就是行政部門跟業者搞得太親近了,這個事情就不太好了"},{"start":53.172,"end":72.517,"text":"但我覺得你應該是很適任的就是說跟業者保持一定的距離然後又有專業所以其實我們國家的部門我們更期待是你可以留下來這個是題外話但我現在講的是限塑的政策我們看得到一次性的塑膠用品不減反增"},{"start":74.077,"end":94.738,"text":"但是我要講幾個數字根據歐盟2021年統計每年大概有500萬到1300萬公噸的塑膠垃圾進入海洋其中一次性的塑膠產品佔了50%以上這是歐盟的那台灣呢?台灣的本土研究你有看到嗎?是"},{"start":99.413,"end":120.083,"text":"荒野保護協會他們在2023年荒野保護協會他們進行了穿廢快篩調查計畫他調查了淡水河把淡水河從上游新天溪、大安溪、基隆河到下游淡水河到出海口一共283公里的全河域調查他做成了"},{"start":120.763,"end":141.133,"text":"然後在這個調查結果他們發現河岸段垃圾量成長2020到2023年成長高達一倍台灣的環境至少河川塑膠的這個垃圾成長高達一倍而這裡面一次性的飲食廢棄物高達七成"},{"start":142.796,"end":167.068,"text":"那他們進一步去比較2020跟2023年這些數據這兩次做的數據他們顯示第一個2020的時候呢每公里就河邊啦每公里平均有73袋的垃圾一袋是14公升所以大概一公里平均有一公噸一公噸的這個垃圾然後到2023年變成156袋大概有2.18噸"},{"start":171.971,"end":172.231,"text":"提供的報告"},{"start":196.949,"end":222.037,"text":"是我們生活當中一次性的飲食廢棄物那此外呢他堆置的地點大概就是河川的下游河道的交會處趕潮斷這熱點是什麼呢熱點就是特別集中在幾個重要的地標比如說關渡大橋社址島的基隆河岸還有盧州淡水河沿線的步道就是下游還有這個兩河交會處這樣子"},{"start":225.819,"end":230.969,"text":"我們在這看這個是下游他們去做的調查但從源頭來看從生產垃圾袋的源頭來看的確也是如此"},{"start":236.704,"end":238.265,"text":"從塑膠袋生產的源頭來看這個調查數據徹底的反映了這個真實性經濟部統計處的調查從100年起到現在塑膠袋的生產量、銷售量還有內銷量幾乎也是跟著逐年上升100年的時候塑膠袋生產量是19.3萬公噸"},{"start":264.203,"end":265.744,"text":"110年生產量是從19萬變成31.6萬公噸生產幅度高達1.6倍然後100年的時候這個19萬.3公噸裡面它內銷是14.2萬公噸"},{"start":284.341,"end":309.878,"text":"然後111年31.6萬公噸裡面內銷使用是20萬公噸所以塑膠袋的內銷銷售量也成長了1.5倍那在這種數據裡面我們覺得是奇怪限塑政策越限越多使用越多啊所以我們都知道100年就是我們限塑政策的起點啊"},{"start":311.311,"end":331.799,"text":"然後卻越用越多,那部長這個對越用越多、限塑政策越限越多結果越用越多,這個你有什麼樣的想法和政策上的檢討嗎?給林委員報告,這個剛剛林委員的分析非常重要,事實上我們過去一段時間我跟我們的資源型懷屬"},{"start":332.899,"end":361.07,"text":"就是密集的在開會應該要從源頭剛剛林委員這個講到的分布事實上有將近70%事實上是我們民眾拋棄的使用過的這些東西一次性對一次性的所以這個反而是一個重點那一次性基本上也要從源頭來去做減量你就是這樣子你很認真我發現你很認真你也掌握啊很認真很累齁"},{"start":362.75,"end":387.452,"text":"還好吧很認真很累但是你要掌握一次性的這個消費行為就牽扯到生意喔就要牽扯到商家喔對啊所以這個挑戰度就在這邊很高喔所以你就很累你想走了喔沒有沒有沒有沒有人家問你所以你說你不想留著因為認真又正經操守又正經的人其實是不容易的我知道但我現在在這裡是要鼓勵你其實"},{"start":388.493,"end":404.138,"text":"最好是繼續留下來為環境努力因為有專業很認真又政經八百的人不跟業者混在一起的人很少我現在要講這一個好我現在不是要講你我要講這個政策"},{"start":405.098,"end":412.4,"text":"國家永續會他們為了這個我們自己的為了呼籲這個聯合國永續發展目標訂出了幾個核心目標幾個具體目標我簡單的來講一次性用品有關的指標當時永續會就是訂出來2020年減到每年每人使用400個塑膠袋"},{"start":427.884,"end":437.555,"text":"到2030年每個人要每年限制希望能夠有一個具體目標是要達到每年每人使用100個但是這樣的部長這樣的減量目標實際上執行的狀況怎麼樣20年已經到了"},{"start":450.23,"end":452.152,"text":"市長2020年現在撿到幾個?我們現在是每年大概用100億個每年每人幾個?不是他講的是total100億不是"},{"start":467.936,"end":489.863,"text":"總共101對現在每年每人2022年計是430個那現在剩下6年就2030年了每人每年要使用100個塑膠袋就這樣子挑戰度很高那你這樣的減量目標你的具體的執行政策路徑要怎麼樣做?署長你有沒有更具體的?"},{"start":492.375,"end":514.046,"text":"事實上這個給林委員報告這一點就是我們一直這個對於包括傳統市場包括癱瘓包括夜市事實上它是塑膠在使用裡面的在某一個程度可以說是這個漏網之一也不是我們不是啦對啦你知道在那裡你要怎麼做"},{"start":515.206,"end":543.281,"text":"這一點我們事實上給一個時間點大概明年我們先預告那未來我想包括以量以價值量好那我你是說你要預告要限塑囉對你講的是攤販喔對攤販跟傳統式的現在還沒有列管的有店面的餐飲業現在是只有這個連鎖啦超商啦連鎖的那個還有文具啦洗衣店飲料洗點麵包只要開花票的"},{"start":543.561,"end":571.628,"text":"只要開發票的開始列入了你現在都要列入了早餐店呢?沒有開發票的早餐店呢?早餐店的熱搜大中欸早餐店那個也是一個很頭痛的問題就是跟傳統市場那個一樣那列在下一波大概114年我們希望這個明年這是你個人的看法還是說這個整體的部裡面的政策我們有在談啦有好幾個互換啦那接下來就看看可是你不留下來啊"},{"start":572.833,"end":592.487,"text":"我可以提供意見我現在要講這個是因為Consul台灣在2023年他們已經對民眾大家政策不敢推行的主要理由都說啊這個民眾不支持啦到底是民眾不支持還是政策怠惰不敢做誤以為民眾支持那我們要拿出數據啊數據會講話"},{"start":595.289,"end":619.944,"text":"2023年看守台灣對民眾進行了購物用塑膠提袋的使用習慣及政策意向問卷調查。調查結果指出有九成八的民眾支持全面禁用一次性的購物用塑膠袋。如果全面限用的話就不得免費提供只是限用而不是禁用喔限用它只是你沒有袋你要再用塑膠袋要買而已喔"},{"start":620.504,"end":634.792,"text":"但是是98%同意一次性的那9393%的民眾支持塑膠袋收費應該使用於垃圾減量措施及或垃圾費這是民間做的但是官方你們也有做"},{"start":636.052,"end":656.829,"text":"環境部部長你知道也有做嗎2018年也針對限塑進行民意調查第一個你們問請問你支不支持政府未來擴大管制所有開發票的店家都不能免費提供購物用塑膠袋且需付錢購買部長你知道你們這個贊成的比例有多高嗎"},{"start":661.41,"end":668.189,"text":"我現在講這個是你們做的事實上很高你們自己做的你知道嗎你們不知道好沒關係我告訴你"},{"start":669.517,"end":688.349,"text":"高達八成的民眾針對這項政策持肯定的評價而且有近六成五的受訪者認為不是只有針對開發票的應該還要繼續擴大管制業市攤販及市場的塑膠袋使用65%的受訪者認為應該要這樣子然後你們還做了網路調查有七成的受訪者針對這個政策持正面肯定的評價由此可見"},{"start":699.156,"end":719.174,"text":"現做的政策以廣為國人接受而且大多數人都支持以價質量的方式擴大管制對象減少廢棄物產生而且你們過去就講過你講的沒錯你2018年就講104年開始要全面限用購物用提待2030年要全面禁用"},{"start":719.935,"end":746.762,"text":"本來你們2018年的政策是這樣子而現在不論是亞洲或歐盟包括法國是全面禁用在韓國的量販店、超市、大型商場他們不是限塑,他們是禁用英國把購物袋那個塑膠袋的價格大幅提高所以顯示限塑已經是國際潮流而且人家已經走到禁塑了禁用了那我也是希望部長環境部應該更勇敢一點"},{"start":747.762,"end":775.922,"text":"不要用呼籲的呼籲就不是辦法嘛事實上要拿出真正的政策來我們離上一次的塑膠袋管制的政策已經7年了你們應該檢討第一個要檢討要擴大現用然後你說了開發票的要用那我們現在講說擴大現用第二個已經現用的是不是也應該進一步到禁用"},{"start":777.343,"end":795.655,"text":"進用那我們還有一個第三個這個政策上的建議就是說擴大使用兩用袋即便是現用的你不要再用買買一個那個就是擴大使用兩用袋你看看守台灣去做說那你拿回家的問民眾拿回家的塑膠袋你做什麼他們說我拿回去裝垃圾"},{"start":798.277,"end":811.966,"text":"然後他調查了雙北地區的人他75%的人也是拿回去當垃圾袋使用有可能在雙北裡面他們其實是購買了兩用袋兩用袋回去再當成他本來就要買垃圾袋還可以繼續使用這樣隨袋徵收所以當然擴大使用兩用袋的前提必須是擴大垃圾費隨袋徵收的基礎"},{"start":825.532,"end":840.097,"text":"所以兩...限塑政策裡面你擴大使用兩用袋兩袋合一成為非常重要的這個政策配套在雙北是不是應該要這樣...應該強制規範下去可不可以?署長有沒有困難?他已經隨來徵收了嘛但我們如果要限塑政策的塑那必須是兩用袋"},{"start":852.264,"end":864.467,"text":"我們現在是給各縣市特別直轄縣市他們找一些示範點先來推雙北已經都是了我們都隨帶徵收了而且隨帶徵收的地區的家戶垃圾的產出的量比隨水徵收的減少一半啦一半啦真的隨帶徵收的垃圾減半然後回收加倍大家都知道是有效的"},{"start":880.532,"end":885.516,"text":"而且大家都以為隨隨徵收垃圾買垃圾袋很貴隨隨徵收比較方便事實上隨著垃圾的減量以後隨代徵收所買的垃圾袋的費用比隨隨徵收時代還更便宜"},{"start":896.405,"end":896.645,"text":"林淑芬議員"},{"start":916.218,"end":942.056,"text":"一般廢棄物清除處理徵收辦法第三條他的規定其實是可以處理由中央定政策地方政府覺得選舉到了他不敢不敢但是我們認為說啊其實中央如果再大刀闊斧一點的話為了台灣的環境而且我們沒有那麼多的處理量能永遠都是分化把它分化那麼多的家戶垃圾垃圾要源頭減量"},{"start":943.357,"end":963.621,"text":"然後要增加回收然後呢限塑禁用的目的是我們要在源頭減量使用這些塑膠一次性的用品嘛所以要有效的政策有效的政策中央喔 電 現在不敢做了其實他們沒經驗 看雙倍來看威樂世代是電到臂水水增收 收服的錢更加少"},{"start":972.148,"end":997.191,"text":"李佳垃圾會減量而且這個國家的廢棄物的管理會更好回收的會更多這個是這樣子最後抱歉給我最後一分鐘半分鐘我講一個農用塑膠膜的問題因為亂象很多而且焚化、掩埋、非法棄置、污染在海邊、海邊的垃圾大部分都農用塑膠膜非常多"},{"start":999.04,"end":1011.682,"text":"大概就是因為它沾染土壤所以這個人力清洗不容易所以廠商不願意回收我是希望環境部應該去考慮公告為應回收物品因為的確這個量很大對環境衝擊很大然後請責任業者要繳交這個回收清除處理費不管輸入的或製造的責任業者通通要繳錢"},{"start":1025.405,"end":1038.678,"text":"腳結以後回收就有基金會給付有基金會給付才有意願才會進入一個好的循環這個事情已經到一個很嚴重的地步了知事體大謝謝好 謝謝林委員部長你可以留著啦 比較正經的人留的比較好"}]}}}}