{"id":151281,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151281","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016274da8a351f35d59c70915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c94e6f0bca3cc8d690d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:36:39 - 11:49:16","影片長度":"00:12:37","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":757,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:49:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:36:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":576,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時36分）謝謝召委，有請潘部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。剛剛前面很多人談到410教改，但我想要來做一個還原，當年410教改的主張其實是廣設公立大學，20所公立大學，讓知識可以普及，但是後來實際上的執行，在作法上面有不一樣，也造成了達成的目標略有不同。當年是20所公立大學，但是後來我們做的其實是所有的技專院校全面升格，院校數從83年的58所大專院校，到後來達到了145所，總數來到159所，所以造成我們現在要來處理這些大學退場的問題、私校退場的問題。但是我自己會覺得啦！就算現在沒有處理大學，坦白說，以少子化的問題，我們還是要來處理專科退場的問題，所以不管怎麼樣，我們現在就是來面對問題、解決問題。","我們來看一下，現在有這麼多的大學數，以我們少子化的狀況，要退場的學校應該不是只有目前的4所吧？但是我收到的資料目前只有這4所，還有就是剛剛講的大漢技術學院會在113年停招。我想要了解的是，以我們目前的推估人數，你看哦！4年之後，大一新生人數即將減少5萬耶！不管怎麼樣，我們可以看到我標籤的黑色方框，在117年是15萬，接下來即便是龍年會有一些增加，但是持續上，在127年之後大概就是15萬以下，所以基本上人數就是會減少，那現在只有這4所學校嗎？我們如何來因應4年之後的問題呢？"],["潘部長文忠：是，剛才委員所提的這4所已經不是專輔學校了，已經正式停辦，正在做後續有關停辦後的財產清點、學生安置等等。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解。"],["潘部長文忠：目前大專校院，以我們私校退場條例的那些指標，目前大學校院是沒有專輔的學校……"],["張委員雅琳：對，目前是，問題是我們……"],["潘部長文忠：但是從這個生源可以看得出來，我們還是會嚴謹地去檢視目前這些相關的私校是不是會出現有關財務危機或影響教學品質等等的訊息，我們會持續地掌握。"],["張委員雅琳：對，因為我看了一下這個數字，把私校的名額加起來，這個5萬差不多是它的三分之一耶！我們應該還是要儘快地去做更明確的掌握，因為我覺得一個非常重要的東西是說，你到後來才處理的時候，對學生、老師的衝擊都是非常大，我們應該要有一些相關的預警作用或是提醒的方式。你剛剛講到，我們好像有做一些掌握嘛！現在針對這些掌握的學校，有沒有做一些預警跟提醒或是怎麼樣去做一些調整，包括你剛剛講的員額調整等等的？"],["潘部長文忠：對，自從大院這邊通過，我們執行私校退場條例後，其實各大學已經更嚴肅面對，因為以往可能在這上面，大家會覺得學校能夠營運，但是以現在來看，教育部所掌握到的，比如像大漢，為什麼學校董事會會開始去務實地面對？因為整個日夜間部加起來，學生總共一百八十幾位，它要去支撐這個學校的運作，我是舉這個例子，當然教師團體等會有一些其他的疑慮，但是我用這個例子跟委員報告，現在的學校會更務實地去面對這樣的議題。至於說後續，當然也不是只有學校，教育部也要……"],["張委員雅琳：我想這個問題，包含私立的高中職……"],["潘部長文忠：而且會有預警的目的。"],["張委員雅琳：私立的高中職其實也是需要進入這些規劃。"],["潘部長文忠：有，目前私立高中職就有13所是專輔學校。"],["張委員雅琳：對，可是人數就是一直在下降嘛！我覺得這件事情還是要有規劃，因為我們時間有限啦！"],["潘部長文忠：了解。"],["張委員雅琳：我覺得我們一定要有規劃，不能夠這樣子就過去了，因為這對師生有直接的影響。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，這些退場的學校後來追蹤之後，發現他們的退學率都很高耶！轉退學率，你看，高美醫專達到38%，臺灣觀光學院也達到32%，都是百分之十幾、二十以上的數字，我不曉得部長有沒有了解為什麼學生後來的轉退學率會來到這麼高呢？"],["潘部長文忠：我們自己要坦白地說，當然有一些學校也會受到限制，譬如以委員所提的臺灣觀光學院，這個學校因為位在花蓮，那我們要安置，你不可能把東部的孩子安置到太遠，你一定會以比較區域性的方式才能夠讓他就近入學，這確實是後續我們在處理上的一個挑戰。我也跟委員報告，當時在討論私校退場條例也有談一些配套措施，就是說學校這個整體、主體沒有辦法再經營的情況之下，能不能讓孩子有機會在他原來所在的區域，甚至在校區鄰近，這個我想我們再研議，因為當時在審條例的時候，大家有談到這樣的問題啦！我為什麼會以這個為例？如果真的太遠或什麼，可能有好多的因素來造成。"],["張委員雅琳：對，因為後來有做一些研究調查，外面的學界有做一些調查，其實學生就是因為受到剛剛講的，距離可能太遠了，或是他去新的學校沒有辦法提供給他相關的學習，他可能要補學分什麼的，變成他有一個很沉重的經濟壓力，所以為什麼我剛剛講了，我們一定要有一些規劃來幫助這些孩子，不然這些孩子可能就會離開。","我們再來看這一頁，部分區域將會缺乏技職教育，像我們現在看到雲林縣的環球科大會退場嘛！還有嘉義市，還有花蓮縣大漢技術學院。現在只剩下這些學校，當時我們在講教改的時候還有講到一個很重要的重點，就是在地的產業連結跟在地區域的人才培養，所以現在在這些區域可能就會發生人才空窗期的問題，會有斷層的問題。剛剛也有提到，我們可能幫他再找一些資源來協助，部長去年在教文會備詢的時候也有提到要規劃，但是目前都還沒有看到，所以我想要幫這些孩子來詢問一下，他們可以用校外專班的方式來進行嗎？如果以花蓮這個例子來講的話，他們可以用校外專班來進行嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：這個就是當時要討論的配套之一，因為這是一個過渡期，學生的學籍也許已經歸到鄰近的某個大學校院，但是上課的地點，因為剛才委員談到原因，我們有追蹤過，有不少是進修部的孩子，因為他本身就是一邊工作一邊……"],["張委員雅琳：又邊打工。"],["潘部長文忠：你要把他移到其他地方，他最後的選項可能乾脆就不要繼續學業了。"],["張委員雅琳：對，離開。"],["潘部長文忠：所以當時在談這件事情的時候，比較是說有沒有可能以就地，就是原來的部分……"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是這個在去年其實部長已經有在研議了嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：因為我們現在都會跟退場學校的學生做座談，主要是了解他們真正的需求，這個機制是可以啟動的，只要有需求啦！因為你要成一個專班，表示說有幾個是比較相同的情形。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我了解，所以目前的作法就是……"],["潘部長文忠：它就是可以搭配的措施啦！也就是說，如果留下來的孩子已經可以用專班的方式在原校地來繼續學業，我們覺得這個是比較必要的措施。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我現在要問一下，我就直接問，針對環球、大同跟大漢這些學校的學生，你們接下來會做一些座談，然後跟他們討論，如果他們有這個需求就可以開專班，對嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：好啊！委員，剛才副司長跟我提，大同技術學院他們已經談過，他們可以成專班了。"],["張委員雅琳：OK，好。"],["潘部長文忠：至於環球科大，還是以學生的需求啦！"],["張委員雅琳：對，所以現在跟環球科大談了嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：是，4月25日。"],["張委員雅琳：好，所以你們都有在安排。"],["潘部長文忠：對。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我主要就掌握這一個部分。再來，在宜花東部分，現在沒有相關的理工技職大學，因為現在留下來可能就是東華跟慈濟，那我自己是在想另外一個方向，因為我們還是有缺工的問題，企業其實要這些人才，可是好像沒有辦法具備相同的能力，教育部是不是可以跟勞動部的職業訓練中心來談一下，也許學生的選擇並不是想要升學，他想要去就業，是不是可以協助學生往這個方向去發展？"],["潘部長文忠：我們跟勞動部跨部會本來就有一個平台，我先跟委員報告一下，如果以東部這邊來說，因為當時慈濟跟慈濟科大要合併，我們的要求就是慈濟科大原來的科系入學管道一定要維持。"],["張委員雅琳：對，是。"],["潘部長文忠：目前它大概有681位技專校院的名額，包含四技、二技跟五專，當時我們是考慮到東部地區的孩子當有需求的時候，那就是一個選項，所以不會因為慈濟科大跟慈濟大學合併後就減少，我們也考慮過地方的技職體系一定要維持。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝部長。不好意思，我再問最後一個問題，現在因為出生人口數越來越少，這幾年我們其實持續地在減班，國小基本上就是海景第一排，少了非常多的學生，很多的學校都廢校。我想要講一個重點，因為在111學年度有發生一個狀況，就是學校在下學期突然說它廢校了，這個彰化的學校，那就會造成學生突然欸！我怎麼才開學心理就受到很大的衝擊，我馬上就要離開這個學校，然後家長要趕快去做接續的處理。我覺得小校的確也會有缺生的問題，教育部是不是也有幫助地方政府去推估未來的人數，或是有相關的指引告訴它可以有什麼樣子的配套？還有，你進行廢校的流程上，是不是有一些時程跟流程可以要求縣市政府去執行？有沒有這些相關的？"],["潘部長文忠：現在就是少子化，教育部有頒行一個國中國小的辦法，因為是義務教育，我們有一個學校要做整併甚至廢校的辦法，這個辦法裡面有非常清楚的規範，你地方政府要做這個決定前的相關作業，包含學生就學權益的維護、社區的溝通……"],["張委員雅琳：對，可是這個彰化的案例都沒有耶！"],["潘部長文忠：地方政府即使做了這個，也必須報到教育部做最後的核備，原因就是要做把關，所以這個議題，比如說縣市還沒有做到這一段，我們就會要求你必須去做，因為配套措施很重要。"],["張委員雅琳：對，沒錯，因為像當時，它已經講了，雖然有開一些形式上面的公聽會，但事實上就是沒有辦法改變這個結果，所以這個部分真的要請教育部積極地去督導。"],["潘部長文忠：是，因為當時設計為什麼中央主管機關還是要有一個備查的機制？就是怕便宜行事之後，學生的受教權益受影響。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["潘部長文忠：當然在地方，中小學終究是由地方政府在做主管，會尊重他們，但是那個過程跟要求我覺得是明確的。"],["張委員雅琳：所以目前都有相關的時程跟流程去要求。"],["潘部長文忠：有，相關的辦法我們再提供給委員參考，好不好？"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝部長。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"pa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\"end\": 749.808, \"score\": 0.682}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 749.808, \"end\": 749.909, \"score\": 0.486}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 749.909, \"end\": 749.929, \"score\": 0.307}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 749.929, \"end\": 749.949, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 750.469, \"end\": 750.489, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,686 --> 00:00:11,367\n謝謝教委,那我們有請潘部長部長好部長好,就是說我想剛剛前面當然很多人談這個410教改啊但我想要來做一個還原當你的410教改的主張其實是廣設公立大學20所公立大學讓這個知識可以普及嘛但跟我們後來實際上執行的其實是在做法上面有不一樣那也造成了這個達成目標略有不同\n\n2\n00:00:37,919 --> 00:00:47,466\n當年我們是二十所公立大學但是後來我們做的其實是所有的技專院校全面升格從我們的這個院校\n\n3\n00:00:49,687 --> 00:01:14,087\n人數從83年58所大專院校到後來我們其實達到了145總數來到159所所以這個其實就會造成我們現在要來處理這些大學退場的這個問題私校退場的問題但是其實我自己會覺得就算我們現在沒有處理大學坦白說以少子化的問題我們還是要來處理專科退場的這個問題所以不管怎麼樣我們現在就是來面對問題解決問題\n\n4\n00:01:18,540 --> 00:01:31,378\n我們來看一下就是說因為現在其實我們有這麼多的大學數可是我們其實要退場因為我們少子化的狀況我們要退場的學校應該不是只有目前的4所\n\n5\n00:01:32,820 --> 00:01:32,920\n張雅琳議員\n\n6\n00:01:51,798 --> 00:02:10,152\n不管怎麼樣我們可以看到我標籤這個紅色的黑色的方框在117年是15萬接下來即便是農年會有一些增加但是持續上在127年之後大概就是15萬以下所以基本上人數就是會減少那我們現在只有這四所學校嗎那我們如何來因應這個\n\n7\n00:02:12,713 --> 00:02:38,983\n4年之後的這個問題是跟委員報告剛才委員所提的這四所他已經不是專輔學校了已經就是正式停辦後面正在做後續有關停辦後的財產清點學生安置等等的目前大專校院我們以我們所說是要退場條例的標的那些指標目前大學校院是沒有專輔的學校但是呢\n\n8\n00:02:40,284 --> 00:03:04,702\n從這個聲援可以出來我們還是會嚴謹的去檢視目前在這些相關的私校那麼是不是會出現有關財務危機或影響教學品質等等的這些訊息我們會持續的掌握對這個因為其實我看一下這個數字又把私校的名額加起來就差不多這五萬就差不多是他的三分之一那\n\n9\n00:03:06,576 --> 00:03:28,617\n我想就是說我們應該還是要來盡快的去做更明確的掌握啦因為我覺得一個非常重要的東西是說因為你到後來才處理的時候這學生老師的衝擊都是非常大我們應該要有一些相關的預警作用或是提醒的方式讓這些你剛剛講到我們好像有做一些掌握嘛那我們現在針對這些掌握學校有沒有做一些預警跟提醒或是怎麼樣去做一些調整剛剛講的員額的調整等等的\n\n10\n00:03:30,799 --> 00:03:53,338\n委員報告因為現在從大院這邊通過我們執行私校退場條例後其實各大學已經更嚴肅面對了因為以往可能在這個上面大家也會覺得從學校能夠營運其實沒有那麼但是以現在來看教育部所掌握到的為什麼比如像大漢他為什麼需要董事會\n\n11\n00:03:54,899 --> 00:03:55,540\n在後續當然也不是只有學校\n\n12\n00:04:21,660 --> 00:04:23,682\n我覺得我們一定要有規劃不能夠就這樣子就過去了這是師生直接的影響\n\n13\n00:04:43,474 --> 00:05:04,572\n那再來就是說其實這些退場學校其實他們後來追蹤之後發現他們的退學率都很高欸轉退學率你看高美藝專達到了38%台灣觀光學院也達到了32%其實都是十幾二十%以上的一個數字那我自己後來我不曉得了解部長有沒有了解為什麼學生後來的這個轉退學率會達到這麼高呢\n\n14\n00:05:05,890 --> 00:05:23,591\n我跟委員報告那當然有一些學校我們自己要坦白的說也會受到限制比如以委員所提的台灣觀光學院的這個學校因為位在花蓮那花蓮我們能夠安置你不可能把東部的孩子安不到\n\n15\n00:05:23,911 --> 00:05:24,952\n在討論私校退場條例．\n\n16\n00:05:40,740 --> 00:05:44,784\n這個學校沒有辦法在整體主體沒有辦法在經營的情況之下能不能讓孩子有機會是在他原來所在的區域甚至校區鄰近做這個我想我們再研議因為當時在審條例的時候大家有談到這樣的問題這個也可能會是為什麼會以這個為例如果孩子真的太遠或什麼他有可能好多的因素會也造成\n\n17\n00:06:08,024 --> 00:06:32,118\n對,因為其實我覺得因為後來有做一些研究調查嘛就是有外面學界有做一些調查就是說其實學生就是因為受到剛剛講的距離可能太遠了或是他去新的這個學校沒有辦法提供給他相關的這些學習可能要補學分啊什麼變成他一個很沉重的經濟壓力所以我自己會覺得說為什麼我剛剛講的我們一定要有一些規劃幫助這些孩子不然這些孩子可能就會離開\n\n18\n00:06:34,359 --> 00:06:58,828\n再來就是說我們在看到這一頁就是說部分區域它將會缺乏技職教育像我們現在看到的這個雲林縣這個環球科大會退場加藝士、花蓮縣、大漢技術學院那現在只剩下這些學校那當時我們在講教改的時候還有講到一個很重要的重點就是在地的產業連結跟在地的區域的人才的培養所以我們現在在這些區域可能就會發生這個人才\n\n19\n00:06:59,668 --> 00:07:00,129\n﹑張雅琳\n\n20\n00:07:26,553 --> 00:07:50,432\n這個就是當時要討論的配套之一因為就是說因為這就是一個過渡期就是說學生的學籍也許已經歸到臨近的某個大學校院學籍但是上課的地點因為剛才我們談到原因我們有追蹤過有不少是進修部的孩子因為他本身就是一邊工作一邊你要把他移到其他地方他最後的選項可能乾脆我就不要繼續學業了\n\n21\n00:07:51,653 --> 00:08:00,995\n所以當時在談這件事情的時候就比較說有沒有可能以舊地就是原來的部分因為我們現在都會跟退場的學校的學生座談主要也了解到他們真正的需求這個機制是可以啟動的只要有需求因為你要成一個專班也表示說有幾個是比較相同的情形\n\n22\n00:08:17,299 --> 00:08:44,164\n我了解所以就變成說我們現在目前的做法就是可以搭配的措施啦因為我跟委員報告的意思也就是說如果這個留下來的孩子已經可以用專班的方式來救原校弟來進行他的繼續學業我們覺得這個是比較必要的措施所以我現在問一下我就直接問所以環球大同跟大漢這些學校的學生我們都已經我們接下來會做一些座談然後跟他們討論\n\n23\n00:08:45,384 --> 00:08:45,744\n對,所以我們現在跟環球科大談了嗎?是,是\n\n24\n00:09:00,855 --> 00:09:24,837\n4月25日所以我們都有在安排我主要就是掌握這一個部分那再來就是說因為其實在這個怡花東部分現在是也沒有相關的理工的技職大學因為他現在留下來可能就是東華跟這個所謂的慈濟那我自己在想另外一個方向因為剛剛我們其實還是有缺工的問題然後還有就是企業其實要這些人才可是好像沒有辦法具備這樣子相同的能力我們是不是可以跟勞動部的技職\n\n25\n00:09:26,258 --> 00:09:33,801\n職業訓練中心來談一下也許學生的選擇他並不是想要升學他想要去就業我們這部分是可以來協助學生往這個方向去發展如果我們跟勞動部跨部會我想這個本來就有一個平台如果學生我先跟我們報告一下如果以東部這邊因為當時慈濟跟慈濟科大要合併我們的要求就是他原來的慈濟科大的科系入學管道一定要維持\n\n26\n00:09:54,451 --> 00:10:20,230\n目前他大概有681位的這個技專校院的名誉包含四季二季跟五專這個就是當時我們考慮到以東部地區的孩子當有需求的時候他就是一個選項所以不會因為慈濟科大跟慈濟大學合併後就減少了這個也我們考慮過這個地方的技職體系一定要維持好謝謝部長那BOSS我再問一個最後一個問題就是說\n\n27\n00:10:22,523 --> 00:10:45,414\n我們現在因為我們就是出生人口數是越來越少那這幾年我們其實持續的在減班啦那國小基本上就是在海景第一排就是少了非常多學生很多學校都廢校啊那我想要講一個重點就是說今年其實有發生一個狀況就是說11學年度抱歉11學年度其實有發生一個狀況就是說我們學校在下學期突然就說它廢校了\n\n28\n00:10:46,114 --> 00:11:09,690\n這個張嬅的學校那就會造成學生突然我怎麼才開學我就要做這個心理很大的衝擊馬上我就要離開這個學校然後家長要趕快去講去做接續的一些處理那我自己會覺得說我們其實因為這的確是小校也會有這樣子像剛剛講的這個缺生的問題我們是不是也有幫助地方政府去推估未來的一些人數然後或是不是也會有告訴他們你相關的一些\n\n29\n00:11:10,370 --> 00:11:12,272\n教育部有班型一個國中國小因為是義務教育有一個學校如果要做整併甚至廢校的這個一個辦法\n\n30\n00:11:32,732 --> 00:12:00,987\n這辦法裡面有非常清楚的規範你地方政府要做這個決定前的相關的作業包含學生的就學潛意的維護社區的溝通可是從這個彰化的案例就是都沒有最後地方政府即使做了這個也必須到到敲一步做最後的核備原因就是要做這個把關所以這個議題我們當然比如說你需要根本縣市還沒有做到這一段我們就會要求你必須去做因為比如說配套措施很重要\n\n31\n00:12:01,947 --> 00:12:29,949\n對沒錯因為像當時就是說因為他已經講了那雖然有開一些形式上面的公聽會啊但事實上就是沒有辦法改變這個結果啊所以這部分真的要請教育部積極的去督促是因為當時設計為什麼要中央主管機關還是要有一個被查的就怕便宜形式之後學生的受教權益受影響當然在地方中小學終究是由地方政府在做主管在尊重他們但是那個過程跟要求我覺得是明確的\n\n32\n00:12:30,469 --> 00:12:30,489\n謝謝部長謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8686\t11367\t謝謝教委,那我們有請潘部長部長好部長好,就是說我想剛剛前面當然很多人談這個410教改啊但我想要來做一個還原當你的410教改的主張其實是廣設公立大學20所公立大學讓這個知識可以普及嘛但跟我們後來實際上執行的其實是在做法上面有不一樣那也造成了這個達成目標略有不同\n37919\t47466\t當年我們是二十所公立大學但是後來我們做的其實是所有的技專院校全面升格從我們的這個院校\n49687\t74087\t人數從83年58所大專院校到後來我們其實達到了145總數來到159所所以這個其實就會造成我們現在要來處理這些大學退場的這個問題私校退場的問題但是其實我自己會覺得就算我們現在沒有處理大學坦白說以少子化的問題我們還是要來處理專科退場的這個問題所以不管怎麼樣我們現在就是來面對問題解決問題\n78540\t91378\t我們來看一下就是說因為現在其實我們有這麼多的大學數可是我們其實要退場因為我們少子化的狀況我們要退場的學校應該不是只有目前的4所\n92820\t92920\t張雅琳議員\n111798\t130152\t不管怎麼樣我們可以看到我標籤這個紅色的黑色的方框在117年是15萬接下來即便是農年會有一些增加但是持續上在127年之後大概就是15萬以下所以基本上人數就是會減少那我們現在只有這四所學校嗎那我們如何來因應這個\n132713\t158983\t4年之後的這個問題是跟委員報告剛才委員所提的這四所他已經不是專輔學校了已經就是正式停辦後面正在做後續有關停辦後的財產清點學生安置等等的目前大專校院我們以我們所說是要退場條例的標的那些指標目前大學校院是沒有專輔的學校但是呢\n160284\t184702\t從這個聲援可以出來我們還是會嚴謹的去檢視目前在這些相關的私校那麼是不是會出現有關財務危機或影響教學品質等等的這些訊息我們會持續的掌握對這個因為其實我看一下這個數字又把私校的名額加起來就差不多這五萬就差不多是他的三分之一那\n186576\t208617\t我想就是說我們應該還是要來盡快的去做更明確的掌握啦因為我覺得一個非常重要的東西是說因為你到後來才處理的時候這學生老師的衝擊都是非常大我們應該要有一些相關的預警作用或是提醒的方式讓這些你剛剛講到我們好像有做一些掌握嘛那我們現在針對這些掌握學校有沒有做一些預警跟提醒或是怎麼樣去做一些調整剛剛講的員額的調整等等的\n210799\t233338\t委員報告因為現在從大院這邊通過我們執行私校退場條例後其實各大學已經更嚴肅面對了因為以往可能在這個上面大家也會覺得從學校能夠營運其實沒有那麼但是以現在來看教育部所掌握到的為什麼比如像大漢他為什麼需要董事會\n234899\t235540\t在後續當然也不是只有學校\n261660\t263682\t我覺得我們一定要有規劃不能夠就這樣子就過去了這是師生直接的影響\n283474\t304572\t那再來就是說其實這些退場學校其實他們後來追蹤之後發現他們的退學率都很高欸轉退學率你看高美藝專達到了38%台灣觀光學院也達到了32%其實都是十幾二十%以上的一個數字那我自己後來我不曉得了解部長有沒有了解為什麼學生後來的這個轉退學率會達到這麼高呢\n305890\t323591\t我跟委員報告那當然有一些學校我們自己要坦白的說也會受到限制比如以委員所提的台灣觀光學院的這個學校因為位在花蓮那花蓮我們能夠安置你不可能把東部的孩子安不到\n323911\t324952\t在討論私校退場條例．\n340740\t344784\t這個學校沒有辦法在整體主體沒有辦法在經營的情況之下能不能讓孩子有機會是在他原來所在的區域甚至校區鄰近做這個我想我們再研議因為當時在審條例的時候大家有談到這樣的問題這個也可能會是為什麼會以這個為例如果孩子真的太遠或什麼他有可能好多的因素會也造成\n368024\t392118\t對,因為其實我覺得因為後來有做一些研究調查嘛就是有外面學界有做一些調查就是說其實學生就是因為受到剛剛講的距離可能太遠了或是他去新的這個學校沒有辦法提供給他相關的這些學習可能要補學分啊什麼變成他一個很沉重的經濟壓力所以我自己會覺得說為什麼我剛剛講的我們一定要有一些規劃幫助這些孩子不然這些孩子可能就會離開\n394359\t418828\t再來就是說我們在看到這一頁就是說部分區域它將會缺乏技職教育像我們現在看到的這個雲林縣這個環球科大會退場加藝士、花蓮縣、大漢技術學院那現在只剩下這些學校那當時我們在講教改的時候還有講到一個很重要的重點就是在地的產業連結跟在地的區域的人才的培養所以我們現在在這些區域可能就會發生這個人才\n419668\t420129\t﹑張雅琳\n446553\t470432\t這個就是當時要討論的配套之一因為就是說因為這就是一個過渡期就是說學生的學籍也許已經歸到臨近的某個大學校院學籍但是上課的地點因為剛才我們談到原因我們有追蹤過有不少是進修部的孩子因為他本身就是一邊工作一邊你要把他移到其他地方他最後的選項可能乾脆我就不要繼續學業了\n471653\t480995\t所以當時在談這件事情的時候就比較說有沒有可能以舊地就是原來的部分因為我們現在都會跟退場的學校的學生座談主要也了解到他們真正的需求這個機制是可以啟動的只要有需求因為你要成一個專班也表示說有幾個是比較相同的情形\n497299\t524164\t我了解所以就變成說我們現在目前的做法就是可以搭配的措施啦因為我跟委員報告的意思也就是說如果這個留下來的孩子已經可以用專班的方式來救原校弟來進行他的繼續學業我們覺得這個是比較必要的措施所以我現在問一下我就直接問所以環球大同跟大漢這些學校的學生我們都已經我們接下來會做一些座談然後跟他們討論\n525384\t525744\t對,所以我們現在跟環球科大談了嗎?是,是\n540855\t564837\t4月25日所以我們都有在安排我主要就是掌握這一個部分那再來就是說因為其實在這個怡花東部分現在是也沒有相關的理工的技職大學因為他現在留下來可能就是東華跟這個所謂的慈濟那我自己在想另外一個方向因為剛剛我們其實還是有缺工的問題然後還有就是企業其實要這些人才可是好像沒有辦法具備這樣子相同的能力我們是不是可以跟勞動部的技職\n566258\t573801\t職業訓練中心來談一下也許學生的選擇他並不是想要升學他想要去就業我們這部分是可以來協助學生往這個方向去發展如果我們跟勞動部跨部會我想這個本來就有一個平台如果學生我先跟我們報告一下如果以東部這邊因為當時慈濟跟慈濟科大要合併我們的要求就是他原來的慈濟科大的科系入學管道一定要維持\n594451\t620230\t目前他大概有681位的這個技專校院的名誉包含四季二季跟五專這個就是當時我們考慮到以東部地區的孩子當有需求的時候他就是一個選項所以不會因為慈濟科大跟慈濟大學合併後就減少了這個也我們考慮過這個地方的技職體系一定要維持好謝謝部長那BOSS我再問一個最後一個問題就是說\n622523\t645414\t我們現在因為我們就是出生人口數是越來越少那這幾年我們其實持續的在減班啦那國小基本上就是在海景第一排就是少了非常多學生很多學校都廢校啊那我想要講一個重點就是說今年其實有發生一個狀況就是說11學年度抱歉11學年度其實有發生一個狀況就是說我們學校在下學期突然就說它廢校了\n646114\t669690\t這個張嬅的學校那就會造成學生突然我怎麼才開學我就要做這個心理很大的衝擊馬上我就要離開這個學校然後家長要趕快去講去做接續的一些處理那我自己會覺得說我們其實因為這的確是小校也會有這樣子像剛剛講的這個缺生的問題我們是不是也有幫助地方政府去推估未來的一些人數然後或是不是也會有告訴他們你相關的一些\n670370\t672272\t教育部有班型一個國中國小因為是義務教育有一個學校如果要做整併甚至廢校的這個一個辦法\n692732\t720987\t這辦法裡面有非常清楚的規範你地方政府要做這個決定前的相關的作業包含學生的就學潛意的維護社區的溝通可是從這個彰化的案例就是都沒有最後地方政府即使做了這個也必須到到敲一步做最後的核備原因就是要做這個把關所以這個議題我們當然比如說你需要根本縣市還沒有做到這一段我們就會要求你必須去做因為比如說配套措施很重要\n721947\t749949\t對沒錯因為像當時就是說因為他已經講了那雖然有開一些形式上面的公聽會啊但事實上就是沒有辦法改變這個結果啊所以這部分真的要請教育部積極的去督促是因為當時設計為什麼要中央主管機關還是要有一個被查的就怕便宜形式之後學生的受教權益受影響當然在地方中小學終究是由地方政府在做主管在尊重他們但是那個過程跟要求我覺得是明確的\n750469\t750489\t謝謝部長 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝教委,那我們有請潘部長部長好部長好,就是說我想剛剛前面當然很多人談這個410教改啊但我想要來做一個還原當你的410教改的主張其實是廣設公立大學20所公立大學讓這個知識可以普及嘛但跟我們後來實際上執行的其實是在做法上面有不一樣那也造成了這個達成目標略有不同\n當年我們是二十所公立大學但是後來我們做的其實是所有的技專院校全面升格從我們的這個院校\n人數從83年58所大專院校到後來我們其實達到了145總數來到159所所以這個其實就會造成我們現在要來處理這些大學退場的這個問題私校退場的問題但是其實我自己會覺得就算我們現在沒有處理大學坦白說以少子化的問題我們還是要來處理專科退場的這個問題所以不管怎麼樣我們現在就是來面對問題解決問題\n我們來看一下就是說因為現在其實我們有這麼多的大學數可是我們其實要退場因為我們少子化的狀況我們要退場的學校應該不是只有目前的4所\n張雅琳議員\n不管怎麼樣我們可以看到我標籤這個紅色的黑色的方框在117年是15萬接下來即便是農年會有一些增加但是持續上在127年之後大概就是15萬以下所以基本上人數就是會減少那我們現在只有這四所學校嗎那我們如何來因應這個\n4年之後的這個問題是跟委員報告剛才委員所提的這四所他已經不是專輔學校了已經就是正式停辦後面正在做後續有關停辦後的財產清點學生安置等等的目前大專校院我們以我們所說是要退場條例的標的那些指標目前大學校院是沒有專輔的學校但是呢\n從這個聲援可以出來我們還是會嚴謹的去檢視目前在這些相關的私校那麼是不是會出現有關財務危機或影響教學品質等等的這些訊息我們會持續的掌握對這個因為其實我看一下這個數字又把私校的名額加起來就差不多這五萬就差不多是他的三分之一那\n我想就是說我們應該還是要來盡快的去做更明確的掌握啦因為我覺得一個非常重要的東西是說因為你到後來才處理的時候這學生老師的衝擊都是非常大我們應該要有一些相關的預警作用或是提醒的方式讓這些你剛剛講到我們好像有做一些掌握嘛那我們現在針對這些掌握學校有沒有做一些預警跟提醒或是怎麼樣去做一些調整剛剛講的員額的調整等等的\n委員報告因為現在從大院這邊通過我們執行私校退場條例後其實各大學已經更嚴肅面對了因為以往可能在這個上面大家也會覺得從學校能夠營運其實沒有那麼但是以現在來看教育部所掌握到的為什麼比如像大漢他為什麼需要董事會\n在後續當然也不是只有學校\n我覺得我們一定要有規劃不能夠就這樣子就過去了這是師生直接的影響\n那再來就是說其實這些退場學校其實他們後來追蹤之後發現他們的退學率都很高欸轉退學率你看高美藝專達到了38%台灣觀光學院也達到了32%其實都是十幾二十%以上的一個數字那我自己後來我不曉得了解部長有沒有了解為什麼學生後來的這個轉退學率會達到這麼高呢\n我跟委員報告那當然有一些學校我們自己要坦白的說也會受到限制比如以委員所提的台灣觀光學院的這個學校因為位在花蓮那花蓮我們能夠安置你不可能把東部的孩子安不到\n在討論私校退場條例．\n這個學校沒有辦法在整體主體沒有辦法在經營的情況之下能不能讓孩子有機會是在他原來所在的區域甚至校區鄰近做這個我想我們再研議因為當時在審條例的時候大家有談到這樣的問題這個也可能會是為什麼會以這個為例如果孩子真的太遠或什麼他有可能好多的因素會也造成\n對,因為其實我覺得因為後來有做一些研究調查嘛就是有外面學界有做一些調查就是說其實學生就是因為受到剛剛講的距離可能太遠了或是他去新的這個學校沒有辦法提供給他相關的這些學習可能要補學分啊什麼變成他一個很沉重的經濟壓力所以我自己會覺得說為什麼我剛剛講的我們一定要有一些規劃幫助這些孩子不然這些孩子可能就會離開\n再來就是說我們在看到這一頁就是說部分區域它將會缺乏技職教育像我們現在看到的這個雲林縣這個環球科大會退場加藝士、花蓮縣、大漢技術學院那現在只剩下這些學校那當時我們在講教改的時候還有講到一個很重要的重點就是在地的產業連結跟在地的區域的人才的培養所以我們現在在這些區域可能就會發生這個人才\n﹑張雅琳\n這個就是當時要討論的配套之一因為就是說因為這就是一個過渡期就是說學生的學籍也許已經歸到臨近的某個大學校院學籍但是上課的地點因為剛才我們談到原因我們有追蹤過有不少是進修部的孩子因為他本身就是一邊工作一邊你要把他移到其他地方他最後的選項可能乾脆我就不要繼續學業了\n所以當時在談這件事情的時候就比較說有沒有可能以舊地就是原來的部分因為我們現在都會跟退場的學校的學生座談主要也了解到他們真正的需求這個機制是可以啟動的只要有需求因為你要成一個專班也表示說有幾個是比較相同的情形\n我了解所以就變成說我們現在目前的做法就是可以搭配的措施啦因為我跟委員報告的意思也就是說如果這個留下來的孩子已經可以用專班的方式來救原校弟來進行他的繼續學業我們覺得這個是比較必要的措施所以我現在問一下我就直接問所以環球大同跟大漢這些學校的學生我們都已經我們接下來會做一些座談然後跟他們討論\n對,所以我們現在跟環球科大談了嗎?是,是\n4月25日所以我們都有在安排我主要就是掌握這一個部分那再來就是說因為其實在這個怡花東部分現在是也沒有相關的理工的技職大學因為他現在留下來可能就是東華跟這個所謂的慈濟那我自己在想另外一個方向因為剛剛我們其實還是有缺工的問題然後還有就是企業其實要這些人才可是好像沒有辦法具備這樣子相同的能力我們是不是可以跟勞動部的技職\n職業訓練中心來談一下也許學生的選擇他並不是想要升學他想要去就業我們這部分是可以來協助學生往這個方向去發展如果我們跟勞動部跨部會我想這個本來就有一個平台如果學生我先跟我們報告一下如果以東部這邊因為當時慈濟跟慈濟科大要合併我們的要求就是他原來的慈濟科大的科系入學管道一定要維持\n目前他大概有681位的這個技專校院的名誉包含四季二季跟五專這個就是當時我們考慮到以東部地區的孩子當有需求的時候他就是一個選項所以不會因為慈濟科大跟慈濟大學合併後就減少了這個也我們考慮過這個地方的技職體系一定要維持好謝謝部長那BOSS我再問一個最後一個問題就是說\n我們現在因為我們就是出生人口數是越來越少那這幾年我們其實持續的在減班啦那國小基本上就是在海景第一排就是少了非常多學生很多學校都廢校啊那我想要講一個重點就是說今年其實有發生一個狀況就是說11學年度抱歉11學年度其實有發生一個狀況就是說我們學校在下學期突然就說它廢校了\n這個張嬅的學校那就會造成學生突然我怎麼才開學我就要做這個心理很大的衝擊馬上我就要離開這個學校然後家長要趕快去講去做接續的一些處理那我自己會覺得說我們其實因為這的確是小校也會有這樣子像剛剛講的這個缺生的問題我們是不是也有幫助地方政府去推估未來的一些人數然後或是不是也會有告訴他們你相關的一些\n教育部有班型一個國中國小因為是義務教育有一個學校如果要做整併甚至廢校的這個一個辦法\n這辦法裡面有非常清楚的規範你地方政府要做這個決定前的相關的作業包含學生的就學潛意的維護社區的溝通可是從這個彰化的案例就是都沒有最後地方政府即使做了這個也必須到到敲一步做最後的核備原因就是要做這個把關所以這個議題我們當然比如說你需要根本縣市還沒有做到這一段我們就會要求你必須去做因為比如說配套措施很重要\n對沒錯因為像當時就是說因為他已經講了那雖然有開一些形式上面的公聽會啊但事實上就是沒有辦法改變這個結果啊所以這部分真的要請教育部積極的去督促是因為當時設計為什麼要中央主管機關還是要有一個被查的就怕便宜形式之後學生的受教權益受影響當然在地方中小學終究是由地方政府在做主管在尊重他們但是那個過程跟要求我覺得是明確的\n謝謝部長 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.686 --> 00:11.367\n謝謝教委,那我們有請潘部長部長好部長好,就是說我想剛剛前面當然很多人談這個410教改啊但我想要來做一個還原當你的410教改的主張其實是廣設公立大學20所公立大學讓這個知識可以普及嘛但跟我們後來實際上執行的其實是在做法上面有不一樣那也造成了這個達成目標略有不同\n\n00:37.919 --> 00:47.466\n當年我們是二十所公立大學但是後來我們做的其實是所有的技專院校全面升格從我們的這個院校\n\n00:49.687 --> 01:14.087\n人數從83年58所大專院校到後來我們其實達到了145總數來到159所所以這個其實就會造成我們現在要來處理這些大學退場的這個問題私校退場的問題但是其實我自己會覺得就算我們現在沒有處理大學坦白說以少子化的問題我們還是要來處理專科退場的這個問題所以不管怎麼樣我們現在就是來面對問題解決問題\n\n01:18.540 --> 01:31.378\n我們來看一下就是說因為現在其實我們有這麼多的大學數可是我們其實要退場因為我們少子化的狀況我們要退場的學校應該不是只有目前的4所\n\n01:32.820 --> 01:32.920\n張雅琳議員\n\n01:51.798 --> 02:10.152\n不管怎麼樣我們可以看到我標籤這個紅色的黑色的方框在117年是15萬接下來即便是農年會有一些增加但是持續上在127年之後大概就是15萬以下所以基本上人數就是會減少那我們現在只有這四所學校嗎那我們如何來因應這個\n\n02:12.713 --> 02:38.983\n4年之後的這個問題是跟委員報告剛才委員所提的這四所他已經不是專輔學校了已經就是正式停辦後面正在做後續有關停辦後的財產清點學生安置等等的目前大專校院我們以我們所說是要退場條例的標的那些指標目前大學校院是沒有專輔的學校但是呢\n\n02:40.284 --> 03:04.702\n從這個聲援可以出來我們還是會嚴謹的去檢視目前在這些相關的私校那麼是不是會出現有關財務危機或影響教學品質等等的這些訊息我們會持續的掌握對這個因為其實我看一下這個數字又把私校的名額加起來就差不多這五萬就差不多是他的三分之一那\n\n03:06.576 --> 03:28.617\n我想就是說我們應該還是要來盡快的去做更明確的掌握啦因為我覺得一個非常重要的東西是說因為你到後來才處理的時候這學生老師的衝擊都是非常大我們應該要有一些相關的預警作用或是提醒的方式讓這些你剛剛講到我們好像有做一些掌握嘛那我們現在針對這些掌握學校有沒有做一些預警跟提醒或是怎麼樣去做一些調整剛剛講的員額的調整等等的\n\n03:30.799 --> 03:53.338\n委員報告因為現在從大院這邊通過我們執行私校退場條例後其實各大學已經更嚴肅面對了因為以往可能在這個上面大家也會覺得從學校能夠營運其實沒有那麼但是以現在來看教育部所掌握到的為什麼比如像大漢他為什麼需要董事會\n\n03:54.899 --> 03:55.540\n在後續當然也不是只有學校\n\n04:21.660 --> 04:23.682\n我覺得我們一定要有規劃不能夠就這樣子就過去了這是師生直接的影響\n\n04:43.474 --> 05:04.572\n那再來就是說其實這些退場學校其實他們後來追蹤之後發現他們的退學率都很高欸轉退學率你看高美藝專達到了38%台灣觀光學院也達到了32%其實都是十幾二十%以上的一個數字那我自己後來我不曉得了解部長有沒有了解為什麼學生後來的這個轉退學率會達到這麼高呢\n\n05:05.890 --> 05:23.591\n我跟委員報告那當然有一些學校我們自己要坦白的說也會受到限制比如以委員所提的台灣觀光學院的這個學校因為位在花蓮那花蓮我們能夠安置你不可能把東部的孩子安不到\n\n05:23.911 --> 05:24.952\n在討論私校退場條例．\n\n05:40.740 --> 05:44.784\n這個學校沒有辦法在整體主體沒有辦法在經營的情況之下能不能讓孩子有機會是在他原來所在的區域甚至校區鄰近做這個我想我們再研議因為當時在審條例的時候大家有談到這樣的問題這個也可能會是為什麼會以這個為例如果孩子真的太遠或什麼他有可能好多的因素會也造成\n\n06:08.024 --> 06:32.118\n對,因為其實我覺得因為後來有做一些研究調查嘛就是有外面學界有做一些調查就是說其實學生就是因為受到剛剛講的距離可能太遠了或是他去新的這個學校沒有辦法提供給他相關的這些學習可能要補學分啊什麼變成他一個很沉重的經濟壓力所以我自己會覺得說為什麼我剛剛講的我們一定要有一些規劃幫助這些孩子不然這些孩子可能就會離開\n\n06:34.359 --> 06:58.828\n再來就是說我們在看到這一頁就是說部分區域它將會缺乏技職教育像我們現在看到的這個雲林縣這個環球科大會退場加藝士、花蓮縣、大漢技術學院那現在只剩下這些學校那當時我們在講教改的時候還有講到一個很重要的重點就是在地的產業連結跟在地的區域的人才的培養所以我們現在在這些區域可能就會發生這個人才\n\n06:59.668 --> 07:00.129\n﹑張雅琳\n\n07:26.553 --> 07:50.432\n這個就是當時要討論的配套之一因為就是說因為這就是一個過渡期就是說學生的學籍也許已經歸到臨近的某個大學校院學籍但是上課的地點因為剛才我們談到原因我們有追蹤過有不少是進修部的孩子因為他本身就是一邊工作一邊你要把他移到其他地方他最後的選項可能乾脆我就不要繼續學業了\n\n07:51.653 --> 08:00.995\n所以當時在談這件事情的時候就比較說有沒有可能以舊地就是原來的部分因為我們現在都會跟退場的學校的學生座談主要也了解到他們真正的需求這個機制是可以啟動的只要有需求因為你要成一個專班也表示說有幾個是比較相同的情形\n\n08:17.299 --> 08:44.164\n我了解所以就變成說我們現在目前的做法就是可以搭配的措施啦因為我跟委員報告的意思也就是說如果這個留下來的孩子已經可以用專班的方式來救原校弟來進行他的繼續學業我們覺得這個是比較必要的措施所以我現在問一下我就直接問所以環球大同跟大漢這些學校的學生我們都已經我們接下來會做一些座談然後跟他們討論\n\n08:45.384 --> 08:45.744\n對,所以我們現在跟環球科大談了嗎?是,是\n\n09:00.855 --> 09:24.837\n4月25日所以我們都有在安排我主要就是掌握這一個部分那再來就是說因為其實在這個怡花東部分現在是也沒有相關的理工的技職大學因為他現在留下來可能就是東華跟這個所謂的慈濟那我自己在想另外一個方向因為剛剛我們其實還是有缺工的問題然後還有就是企業其實要這些人才可是好像沒有辦法具備這樣子相同的能力我們是不是可以跟勞動部的技職\n\n09:26.258 --> 09:33.801\n職業訓練中心來談一下也許學生的選擇他並不是想要升學他想要去就業我們這部分是可以來協助學生往這個方向去發展如果我們跟勞動部跨部會我想這個本來就有一個平台如果學生我先跟我們報告一下如果以東部這邊因為當時慈濟跟慈濟科大要合併我們的要求就是他原來的慈濟科大的科系入學管道一定要維持\n\n09:54.451 --> 10:20.230\n目前他大概有681位的這個技專校院的名誉包含四季二季跟五專這個就是當時我們考慮到以東部地區的孩子當有需求的時候他就是一個選項所以不會因為慈濟科大跟慈濟大學合併後就減少了這個也我們考慮過這個地方的技職體系一定要維持好謝謝部長那BOSS我再問一個最後一個問題就是說\n\n10:22.523 --> 10:45.414\n我們現在因為我們就是出生人口數是越來越少那這幾年我們其實持續的在減班啦那國小基本上就是在海景第一排就是少了非常多學生很多學校都廢校啊那我想要講一個重點就是說今年其實有發生一個狀況就是說11學年度抱歉11學年度其實有發生一個狀況就是說我們學校在下學期突然就說它廢校了\n\n10:46.114 --> 11:09.690\n這個張嬅的學校那就會造成學生突然我怎麼才開學我就要做這個心理很大的衝擊馬上我就要離開這個學校然後家長要趕快去講去做接續的一些處理那我自己會覺得說我們其實因為這的確是小校也會有這樣子像剛剛講的這個缺生的問題我們是不是也有幫助地方政府去推估未來的一些人數然後或是不是也會有告訴他們你相關的一些\n\n11:10.370 --> 11:12.272\n教育部有班型一個國中國小因為是義務教育有一個學校如果要做整併甚至廢校的這個一個辦法\n\n11:32.732 --> 12:00.987\n這辦法裡面有非常清楚的規範你地方政府要做這個決定前的相關的作業包含學生的就學潛意的維護社區的溝通可是從這個彰化的案例就是都沒有最後地方政府即使做了這個也必須到到敲一步做最後的核備原因就是要做這個把關所以這個議題我們當然比如說你需要根本縣市還沒有做到這一段我們就會要求你必須去做因為比如說配套措施很重要\n\n12:01.947 --> 12:29.949\n對沒錯因為像當時就是說因為他已經講了那雖然有開一些形式上面的公聽會啊但事實上就是沒有辦法改變這個結果啊所以這部分真的要請教育部積極的去督促是因為當時設計為什麼要中央主管機關還是要有一個被查的就怕便宜形式之後學生的受教權益受影響當然在地方中小學終究是由地方政府在做主管在尊重他們但是那個過程跟要求我覺得是明確的\n\n12:30.469 --> 12:30.489\n謝謝部長謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.686,"end":11.367,"text":"謝謝教委,那我們有請潘部長部長好部長好,就是說我想剛剛前面當然很多人談這個410教改啊但我想要來做一個還原當你的410教改的主張其實是廣設公立大學20所公立大學讓這個知識可以普及嘛但跟我們後來實際上執行的其實是在做法上面有不一樣那也造成了這個達成目標略有不同"},{"start":37.919,"end":47.466,"text":"當年我們是二十所公立大學但是後來我們做的其實是所有的技專院校全面升格從我們的這個院校"},{"start":49.687,"end":74.087,"text":"人數從83年58所大專院校到後來我們其實達到了145總數來到159所所以這個其實就會造成我們現在要來處理這些大學退場的這個問題私校退場的問題但是其實我自己會覺得就算我們現在沒有處理大學坦白說以少子化的問題我們還是要來處理專科退場的這個問題所以不管怎麼樣我們現在就是來面對問題解決問題"},{"start":78.54,"end":91.378,"text":"我們來看一下就是說因為現在其實我們有這麼多的大學數可是我們其實要退場因為我們少子化的狀況我們要退場的學校應該不是只有目前的4所"},{"start":92.82,"end":92.92,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":111.798,"end":130.152,"text":"不管怎麼樣我們可以看到我標籤這個紅色的黑色的方框在117年是15萬接下來即便是農年會有一些增加但是持續上在127年之後大概就是15萬以下所以基本上人數就是會減少那我們現在只有這四所學校嗎那我們如何來因應這個"},{"start":132.713,"end":158.983,"text":"4年之後的這個問題是跟委員報告剛才委員所提的這四所他已經不是專輔學校了已經就是正式停辦後面正在做後續有關停辦後的財產清點學生安置等等的目前大專校院我們以我們所說是要退場條例的標的那些指標目前大學校院是沒有專輔的學校但是呢"},{"start":160.284,"end":184.702,"text":"從這個聲援可以出來我們還是會嚴謹的去檢視目前在這些相關的私校那麼是不是會出現有關財務危機或影響教學品質等等的這些訊息我們會持續的掌握對這個因為其實我看一下這個數字又把私校的名額加起來就差不多這五萬就差不多是他的三分之一那"},{"start":186.576,"end":208.617,"text":"我想就是說我們應該還是要來盡快的去做更明確的掌握啦因為我覺得一個非常重要的東西是說因為你到後來才處理的時候這學生老師的衝擊都是非常大我們應該要有一些相關的預警作用或是提醒的方式讓這些你剛剛講到我們好像有做一些掌握嘛那我們現在針對這些掌握學校有沒有做一些預警跟提醒或是怎麼樣去做一些調整剛剛講的員額的調整等等的"},{"start":210.799,"end":233.338,"text":"委員報告因為現在從大院這邊通過我們執行私校退場條例後其實各大學已經更嚴肅面對了因為以往可能在這個上面大家也會覺得從學校能夠營運其實沒有那麼但是以現在來看教育部所掌握到的為什麼比如像大漢他為什麼需要董事會"},{"start":234.899,"end":235.54,"text":"在後續當然也不是只有學校"},{"start":261.66,"end":263.682,"text":"我覺得我們一定要有規劃不能夠就這樣子就過去了這是師生直接的影響"},{"start":283.474,"end":304.572,"text":"那再來就是說其實這些退場學校其實他們後來追蹤之後發現他們的退學率都很高欸轉退學率你看高美藝專達到了38%台灣觀光學院也達到了32%其實都是十幾二十%以上的一個數字那我自己後來我不曉得了解部長有沒有了解為什麼學生後來的這個轉退學率會達到這麼高呢"},{"start":305.89,"end":323.591,"text":"我跟委員報告那當然有一些學校我們自己要坦白的說也會受到限制比如以委員所提的台灣觀光學院的這個學校因為位在花蓮那花蓮我們能夠安置你不可能把東部的孩子安不到"},{"start":323.911,"end":324.952,"text":"在討論私校退場條例．"},{"start":340.74,"end":344.784,"text":"這個學校沒有辦法在整體主體沒有辦法在經營的情況之下能不能讓孩子有機會是在他原來所在的區域甚至校區鄰近做這個我想我們再研議因為當時在審條例的時候大家有談到這樣的問題這個也可能會是為什麼會以這個為例如果孩子真的太遠或什麼他有可能好多的因素會也造成"},{"start":368.024,"end":392.118,"text":"對,因為其實我覺得因為後來有做一些研究調查嘛就是有外面學界有做一些調查就是說其實學生就是因為受到剛剛講的距離可能太遠了或是他去新的這個學校沒有辦法提供給他相關的這些學習可能要補學分啊什麼變成他一個很沉重的經濟壓力所以我自己會覺得說為什麼我剛剛講的我們一定要有一些規劃幫助這些孩子不然這些孩子可能就會離開"},{"start":394.359,"end":418.828,"text":"再來就是說我們在看到這一頁就是說部分區域它將會缺乏技職教育像我們現在看到的這個雲林縣這個環球科大會退場加藝士、花蓮縣、大漢技術學院那現在只剩下這些學校那當時我們在講教改的時候還有講到一個很重要的重點就是在地的產業連結跟在地的區域的人才的培養所以我們現在在這些區域可能就會發生這個人才"},{"start":419.668,"end":420.129,"text":"﹑張雅琳"},{"start":446.553,"end":470.432,"text":"這個就是當時要討論的配套之一因為就是說因為這就是一個過渡期就是說學生的學籍也許已經歸到臨近的某個大學校院學籍但是上課的地點因為剛才我們談到原因我們有追蹤過有不少是進修部的孩子因為他本身就是一邊工作一邊你要把他移到其他地方他最後的選項可能乾脆我就不要繼續學業了"},{"start":471.653,"end":480.995,"text":"所以當時在談這件事情的時候就比較說有沒有可能以舊地就是原來的部分因為我們現在都會跟退場的學校的學生座談主要也了解到他們真正的需求這個機制是可以啟動的只要有需求因為你要成一個專班也表示說有幾個是比較相同的情形"},{"start":497.299,"end":524.164,"text":"我了解所以就變成說我們現在目前的做法就是可以搭配的措施啦因為我跟委員報告的意思也就是說如果這個留下來的孩子已經可以用專班的方式來救原校弟來進行他的繼續學業我們覺得這個是比較必要的措施所以我現在問一下我就直接問所以環球大同跟大漢這些學校的學生我們都已經我們接下來會做一些座談然後跟他們討論"},{"start":525.384,"end":525.744,"text":"對,所以我們現在跟環球科大談了嗎?是,是"},{"start":540.855,"end":564.837,"text":"4月25日所以我們都有在安排我主要就是掌握這一個部分那再來就是說因為其實在這個怡花東部分現在是也沒有相關的理工的技職大學因為他現在留下來可能就是東華跟這個所謂的慈濟那我自己在想另外一個方向因為剛剛我們其實還是有缺工的問題然後還有就是企業其實要這些人才可是好像沒有辦法具備這樣子相同的能力我們是不是可以跟勞動部的技職"},{"start":566.258,"end":573.801,"text":"職業訓練中心來談一下也許學生的選擇他並不是想要升學他想要去就業我們這部分是可以來協助學生往這個方向去發展如果我們跟勞動部跨部會我想這個本來就有一個平台如果學生我先跟我們報告一下如果以東部這邊因為當時慈濟跟慈濟科大要合併我們的要求就是他原來的慈濟科大的科系入學管道一定要維持"},{"start":594.451,"end":620.23,"text":"目前他大概有681位的這個技專校院的名誉包含四季二季跟五專這個就是當時我們考慮到以東部地區的孩子當有需求的時候他就是一個選項所以不會因為慈濟科大跟慈濟大學合併後就減少了這個也我們考慮過這個地方的技職體系一定要維持好謝謝部長那BOSS我再問一個最後一個問題就是說"},{"start":622.523,"end":645.414,"text":"我們現在因為我們就是出生人口數是越來越少那這幾年我們其實持續的在減班啦那國小基本上就是在海景第一排就是少了非常多學生很多學校都廢校啊那我想要講一個重點就是說今年其實有發生一個狀況就是說11學年度抱歉11學年度其實有發生一個狀況就是說我們學校在下學期突然就說它廢校了"},{"start":646.114,"end":669.69,"text":"這個張嬅的學校那就會造成學生突然我怎麼才開學我就要做這個心理很大的衝擊馬上我就要離開這個學校然後家長要趕快去講去做接續的一些處理那我自己會覺得說我們其實因為這的確是小校也會有這樣子像剛剛講的這個缺生的問題我們是不是也有幫助地方政府去推估未來的一些人數然後或是不是也會有告訴他們你相關的一些"},{"start":670.37,"end":672.272,"text":"教育部有班型一個國中國小因為是義務教育有一個學校如果要做整併甚至廢校的這個一個辦法"},{"start":692.732,"end":720.987,"text":"這辦法裡面有非常清楚的規範你地方政府要做這個決定前的相關的作業包含學生的就學潛意的維護社區的溝通可是從這個彰化的案例就是都沒有最後地方政府即使做了這個也必須到到敲一步做最後的核備原因就是要做這個把關所以這個議題我們當然比如說你需要根本縣市還沒有做到這一段我們就會要求你必須去做因為比如說配套措施很重要"},{"start":721.947,"end":749.949,"text":"對沒錯因為像當時就是說因為他已經講了那雖然有開一些形式上面的公聽會啊但事實上就是沒有辦法改變這個結果啊所以這部分真的要請教育部積極的去督促是因為當時設計為什麼要中央主管機關還是要有一個被查的就怕便宜形式之後學生的受教權益受影響當然在地方中小學終究是由地方政府在做主管在尊重他們但是那個過程跟要求我覺得是明確的"},{"start":750.469,"end":750.489,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝"}]}}}}