{"id":151285,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151285","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016270cc79e7bf9d603940915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c9455ea099cd124814b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:49:22 - 12:02:20","影片長度":"00:12:58","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":778,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:02:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:49:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":634,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時49分）麻煩請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我們今天是討論教改議題，講到教改就很難不講到一個人──李遠哲，因為我看到李遠哲昨天有出來卸責，他說其實教改沒有問題，大家罵他是因為他2000年的時候支持民進黨，你認同他講的這句話嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我不曉得李院長怎麼說。"],["葉委員元之：他就這樣說啊！你認同嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，委員，尊重他的說法啦！"],["葉委員元之：尊重，那你認同嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，尊重，我沒有什麼認同不認同。"],["葉委員元之：你不敢講？"],["潘部長文忠：因為這是……"],["葉委員元之：好，沒關係，你不敢講，我個人是非常不認同。他說廣設大學和他無關，而且他還拉台積電的董事長劉德音幫他背書，他說劉德音講說教改會的成果真的是非常了不起，這個是李遠哲講的。我們來看一下他在2014年說什麼，因為2014年當時是教改推動20年，今年是30年，那李遠哲說，這是他自己講的哦！教改沒有成功是因為社會沒有公平正義，你自己就已經講教改沒成功了嘛！你在10年前說教改沒成功，10年後你說教改很棒，連劉德音都稱讚我，那我不懂這10年來是不是不同的李遠哲，講話可以這樣子前後矛盾啊！","我們再來看廣設大學和他有沒有關係，我們特別去看了30年前教改會的報告，你可以看到它其中有一個建議就是要發展各具特色的高等學府，包括要有綜合型大學、研究型大學、技術學院、多元技術學院、科技大學、開放大學、社區學院，要容納所有接受不同型態高等教育的人口。那臺灣這麼小，大學這麼有限，你要符合這麼多的特色、這麼多的類型，你不廣設大學要怎麼達到？所以這明明就是當時他們的建議嘛！現在可以甩鍋說這個東西跟他無關。再來，當時他說要廣設大學發展各具特色的高等教育學府，我們來看有什麼配套措施，其中有一項是說要解除學費的限制，要讓各大學開放，隨便他們去收學費，我就問啊！經歷了這30年，我們有開放學費限制嗎？有放寬嗎？沒有！我們不僅是沒有放寬，而且現在是讓大家的學費幾乎一樣，因為現在有補助私校的學生嘛！所以30年來，他所謂的配套和他當時的主張根本背道而馳。","我們再來看，當時的教改會也有推動一個叫做多元入學方案，李遠哲說入學，這是他講的哦！2014年他說的哦！他說多元入學考試就是不公不義，因為它會造成更大的落差，因為鄉下的孩子會提早在多元入學的這個規則下面出局，這是他的原話，我一個字都沒有加。然後你去看他民國85年的報告，上面就寫著要推動多元入學制度，就是他講的哦！甚至於多元入學制度的配套是什麼呢？它的目標是什麼呢？它寫說長期，我們整個入學要以申請為主，要以申請為主哦！我們用紅色框起來，說要申請為主啊！那我問一下部長，30年了，我們現在是申請為主嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：是不是還有考試？有沒有學測？有沒有指考？有沒有？"],["潘部長文忠：不，申請入學為主，它講的是入學的幾個多元管道。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！有沒有為主？為主就是百分之八、九十。"],["潘部長文忠：現在我們在進行的還有推甄、繁星入學。"],["葉委員元之：我知道啦！那是不是以這個為主？是不是一半以上都是這個？是不是嘛？"],["潘部長文忠：現在推甄加那個是超過50%了。"],["葉委員元之：超過百分之多少？"],["潘部長文忠：50。"],["葉委員元之：所以他講的為主是50哦？"],["潘部長文忠：不是啦！"],["葉委員元之：還是百分之八、九十？不要玩文字遊戲，這個又不是你寫的，你怕什麼嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：不是，因為委員一直在講李院長，我說……"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，部長，你也不用幫他圓了。"],["潘部長文忠：因為它是一個審議會。"],["葉委員元之：他又不是陳建仁，你不用幫他圓了啦！我現在要講的是，一個當初提出要教改的人，講話前後矛盾，然後當初的主張後來不敢承認，甚至於後來他的講法已經打臉了他當時的主張，這證明什麼事？這證明我們教改就是失敗了嘛！如果沒有失敗的話，教改會的召集人何必講話要這樣前後矛盾，我都不曉得哪一個是李遠哲了。現在被改得亂七八糟，雖然快要換部長，但是離現在還有一個多月，難道教育部不應該召開一個全國教育會議，把30年來這種亂七八糟的亂象重新做一個檢討嗎？不管是入學的升學制度，或者是廣設大學所造成的後遺症，那麼多的問題，難道真的不應該開一個會，讓大家重新訂一個未來的發展方向嗎？部長，你覺得呢？"],["潘部長文忠：教育一直都在演變，環境也一直在演變，適時地讓各界來參與，也把現況做一些討論，我覺得是有必要，因為教育跟著變化的速度非常快，產業的變化委員也知道，那個絕對不是我們當時所能想像，所以整個30年臺灣教育的變革其實是多面向。在碰到少子女化後，我們當時本來是希望讓孩子有更多接受高等教育的機會，以現在來看，確實是跟少子化有很大的衝突。"],["葉委員元之：部長，因為你都沒有針對我的問題回答，我剛剛給你十幾秒……"],["潘部長文忠：有啦！委員，我都……"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，我是覺得……"],["潘部長文忠：不是，教育是多面向，不是單一……"],["葉委員元之：如果要負責任的話，應該真的要召開一個全國會議，因為說實在的，教改30年，它當初訂的是一個長程的規劃，但是這個長程都沒有達到，所以我們應該再開一個會，再重新訂一個短程、中程、長程的規劃。如果說你每一年再做小幅的調整，削足適履，我覺得是達不到那個目標的，所以希望教育部真的要召集全國專家澈底地檢討一下。","也就是因為李遠哲他們廣設大學，造成現在有很多大學要退場了，對吧？在教育部給我們的報告裡面就寫了，100年是所有學校的高峰，有163間，112年只剩145間，所以大學退場其實是很快的。現在很多大學為了因應超高齡的社會，所以實際上是想要把原本的學校校地去轉做長照，對吧？應該是這樣，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：應該說有些學校如果設有相關科系，它是可以增設。"],["葉委員元之：好，那問題就在這裡了，部長，問題就在這裡，其實很多學校是設在偏鄉，很多準備要退場的學校是在偏鄉，偏鄉就是長輩比較多，他們周邊長輩比較多，可是它可能沒有護理系，所以它就不符合教育部現在的規定，它就不能轉做長照。我現在是建議啦！因應超高齡的社會，其實可以研究一下，看法令怎麼鬆綁，不要說好像非要有護理系的學校才可以轉做長照，可不可以在一定的規定底下，讓他們也可以去做？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，應該不是唯一護理系，是……"],["葉委員元之：相關嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：相關科系。這個從學校來講，因為學校主體還是辦學，如果說它能夠增加這方面科系的規劃，而且也符合臺灣未來高齡社會的需求，教育部本身是會支持。"],["葉委員元之：第一個，它的門檻就會比較高。第二個，教育部要更積極去輔導，因為現在退場了非常多的學校。","第二，我要給教育部一個建議，如果這些學校未來退場之後做長照或做高齡教育，你們要去稽查，你們要去考核它的高齡教育到底做得怎麼樣。因為根據我個人之前的研究或者是我的觀察，很多高齡教育都會開一個課程，長輩來上，有吃東西了，認識一些人就結束，這個對於活躍老化一點幫助都沒有。你真正要做活躍老化，應該是一個班級，你有系統性的針對身體、心理、心靈，甚至人際、健康各方面的課程規劃，還有前測後測，有一個整體系統性的讓他們來上，這個才有幫助。如果只是來這邊老人共餐一下，然後上個課，一個禮拜來兩天，然後愛來不來的，其實這個效果非常有限，所以我們如果要做高齡教育，我們要認真做，要因應高齡社會的變化。","再來，我們現在對待長輩的態度也要跟以前不一樣，過去大家對待長輩，好像就是把長輩的業務放在衛生局或放在社會局，衛生局就是讓你健康好一點，不要用太多健保，社會局就是給你一點福利，現在對待長輩不是用這種態度，他們已經成為我們社會的主體了，我們要把長輩當作目的，而不是把他當作好像會連累我們社會的一群人。我們要以他們為主，所以你在做高齡教育的時候，也要實際去調查這些長輩想要學的課程是什麼，比如說退休之後學習到的東西也許可以補足他在童年時代的缺憾，就是說大家要去調查一下長輩的需求，所以我是覺得大學退場做長照我非常支持，希望教育部可以鬆綁，看是在法律上面還是怎麼樣，然後要去協助，要去幫助他們，要去精進這個高齡教育的課程，我覺得才是比較有幫助的，部長，你同意嘛？"],["潘部長文忠：是，剛剛委員提的一些觀點我覺得很好，但高齡教育跟高齡學習這個是有它的程度，吳春城委員的壯世代其實也在思考這個問題。"],["葉委員元之：吳委員在下一個，你可以回答他嘛！現在是我的質詢時間。"],["潘部長文忠：不是，我要跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：你拖時間也不是這樣拖吧！"],["潘部長文忠：不是啦！委員，你這個想法很棒啊！我還是要肯定委員提出這個，但是我剛才跟你講的是……"],["葉委員元之：主席，我要增加30秒，因為他扯到那個……"],["潘部長文忠：沒有啦！我肯定委員，委員還這麼說。"],["葉委員元之：不是，那等一下如果有很多委員在這邊，你每個名字唸一遍，我1分鐘就過去了。"],["潘部長文忠：不會啦！因為吳春城委員，我真的……他的壯世代……"],["葉委員元之：吳春城委員你等一下再稱讚他嘛！現在是我質詢嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：沒有啦！因為委員的觀念很棒啊！所以我才跟委員說……"],["葉委員元之：我的觀點很棒，你稱讚我就好，你講吳春城幹嘛？"],["潘部長文忠：我現在講的不就是這樣嗎？"],["葉委員元之：不是，你在拖時間啦！好啦！再來，講到課綱，大學現在面臨到一個問題，就是除了招生困難之外，還要留下學生，你知道嗎？留下學生就是他們要承接108課綱的問題，108課綱現在造成學生在學科方面基礎薄弱，所以有一些大學它必須要加強基礎課程，譬如說微積分，譬如說普化，他們要幫高中去上他們可能沒有上的部分，因為我時間也到了，我希望教育部去了解研究，去協助這些大學接住學生，不要讓那些108課綱學生一進到大學發現我跟不上，然後就離開了，這也是一個非常大的問題。","最後再30秒。我講一下，這是我一個陳情案，有代理教師跟我陳情，他說為什麼他們從別的縣市轉任到其他縣市，過去在別的縣市的代理教師年資不能夠銜接？部長，你知道這個問題嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：知道，這有一個釋憲案，還在討論。"],["葉委員元之：不是，這個釋憲案，我覺得這個問題根本就不需要釋憲嘛！你教育部不能把這個東西推給地方，因為什麼呢？因為每一個縣市政府也有約聘人員，約聘人員能不能夠累積他過去在別的地方的年資？都是可以，為什麼？因為這是中央統一訂定的規定啊！為什麼只有在代理教師這一塊，你就說我要去尊重地方自治，由各縣市自己決定？這個是教育部不願意，沒有肩膀嘛！把這個東西甩鍋給地方，你只要有肩膀，你直接訂說這個東西跟地方政府的約聘人員一樣，我們統一一定要銜接年資就結了嘛！為什麼要讓代理教師去釋憲？我真的覺得那個代理教師很可憐耶！代理教師不是教師嗎？不是軍公教人員嗎？他們沒有去學校上課嗎？為什麼他們還需要為了自己的權益去打憲法官司？部長，你看到你下面的這些老師，你要照顧的老師需要這樣子維護自己的權益，你都不會覺得很難過哦？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我們所努力的，包含……"],["葉委員元之：你有肩膀你就扛下來，你直接發文給……"],["潘部長文忠：包含代理老師的敘薪，這都是在去年大家一起努力，也跟縣市一起努力啦！委員，你在縣市也服務過……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，我現在在講的是這個案子。"],["潘部長文忠：你知道這些訊息……"],["葉委員元之：這樣我又要加20秒了，你不要扯別的，我現在講的是累積年資的問題。"],["潘部長文忠：我回答委員的問題，委員說我扯別的，代理老師要不是去年全國一致，代理老師的聘用連12個月、幾個月都是不一致。"],["葉委員元之：這個我都支持你啦！我現在講的是別的議題。"],["潘部長文忠：不是啦！委員，我們大家一起努力，應該這樣說。"],["葉委員元之：不是，你就肩膀扛起來，你發一個文給各縣市政府說代理教師就跟縣市政府約聘人員一樣，全國統一適用，所有年資都可以累積，做結論就結束了，不用讓他們去打憲政官司，請你研究一下，好不好？可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：現在在研究中，沒錯。"],["葉委員元之：研究中，好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請吳春城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"151285","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151285","tool":"pyannote","id":"151285-pyannote"},"job_id":"ornw6M3vDcA2Heqz","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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\"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,671 --> 00:00:35,754\n麻煩請部長謝謝好部長委員好部長我們今天是討論教改議題講到教改就很難不講到一個人李遠哲因為我看到李遠哲昨天有出來謝哲他說其實教改沒有問題大家罵他是因為他2000年的時候支持民進黨你認同他講這句話嗎我不曉得李院長怎麼說他就這樣說你認同嗎\n\n2\n00:00:37,642 --> 00:01:02,571\n我尊重他的說法尊重那你認同嗎沒有尊重我沒有什麼認同不認同你不敢講沒關係你不敢講我個人是非常不認同他說廣設大學和他無關而且他還拉台積電的董事長劉德英幫他背書他說劉德英講說教改會的成果真的是非常了不起這是李遠哲講的我們來看一下他2014年說什麼\n\n3\n00:01:03,831 --> 00:01:27,898\n他2014年因為是當時教改虧弄20年嘛今年是30年嘛那李遠哲講說他自己講到教改沒有成功是因為社會沒有公平正義那你自己就已經講了教改沒成功了嘛你在10年前說教改沒成功10年後你說教育教改很棒連劉德英都稱讚我那我不懂這個李遠哲是不是10年來是不同的李遠哲講話可以這樣子前後矛盾啊\n\n4\n00:01:28,678 --> 00:01:33,411\n然後我們再來看廣設大學和他有沒有關係喔我們特別去看了民國\n\n5\n00:01:35,481 --> 00:02:02,163\n當時就是30年前教改會的報告你可以看到他其中有一個建議就是要發展各具特色高等學府其中就包括要有綜合型大學研究型大學技術學院多元技術學院科技大學開放大學社區學院要容納所有要接受不同型態高等教育的人口那台灣這麼小大學這麼有限你要符合這麼多的特色這麼多的類型你不管設大學要怎麼完成要怎麼達到\n\n6\n00:02:03,164 --> 00:02:27,773\n所以這就明明就是當時他們的建議嘛現在可以甩鍋說這個東西跟他無關然後再來我們來看當時他說高等要發展廣設大學各具特色的高等教育學府有什麼配套措施我們來看他其中有一項他其中有一項就說要讓要解除學費的限制要讓各大學開放隨便他們去收學費我就問啊經歷了這30年經歷了這30年我沒有開放學費限制嗎\n\n7\n00:02:31,934 --> 00:02:56,187\n有放寬嗎?沒有!我們不僅是沒有放寬而且我們現在是讓大家學費幾乎一樣因為我們現在有補助私校的學生所以30年來他所謂的配套和他當時的主張根本背道而馳然後我們再來看當時的教改會也有推動一個叫做多元入學方案李遠哲說這個入學這是他講的2014年他說的他說多元入學考試\n\n8\n00:02:57,728 --> 00:03:26,767\n就是不公不義啦因為他會造成更大的落差因為鄉下的孩子會提早在多元入學的這個規則下面出局這是他的原話我一個字都沒有加然後你去看他民國85年他的報告上面就寫著要推動多元入學制度就他講的喔然後甚至於多元入學制度的配套是什麼呢他的目標是什麼呢他寫說長期我們整個入學我們要以申請為主\n\n9\n00:03:28,290 --> 00:03:34,867\n要以申請為主喔我們用紅色框下來說要申請為主啊那我問一下部長30年我們現在是申請為主嗎\n\n10\n00:03:36,211 --> 00:03:55,707\n跟委員報告是不是還有考試有沒有學測有沒有指考有沒有講的是入學的幾個多元管道對嘛現在我們在進行的還有推薦繁星入學啊我知道啦那是不是以這個為主嘛是不是一半以上都是這個嘛是不是嘛現在推增加那個是超過50%超過50%那是多少50所以他講的為主是50喔\n\n11\n00:03:58,689 --> 00:04:05,894\n我現在要講就是說一個當初提出要教改的人講話前後矛盾然後當初的主張後來不敢承認甚至於後來他的講法已經打臉了他當時的主張那這證明什麼一件事這證明說我們教改就失敗了嘛\n\n12\n00:04:27,589 --> 00:04:34,111\n如果沒有失敗的話那教改會的召集人何必講話要這樣前後矛盾我都不曉得哪一個是李遠哲了啊\n\n13\n00:04:34,844 --> 00:04:58,064\n所以現在被改得亂七八糟難道教育部你們不應該可是快要換部長但是現在還有一個多月難道教育部不該召開一個全國的教育會議嗎把這30年來這種亂七八糟亂象重新做一個檢討嗎不管是入學的升學制度或者是大學的這個廣設大學所造成的後遺症\n\n14\n00:04:59,085 --> 00:05:27,681\n那麼多的問題難道真的不應該開一個會讓大家重新定一個未來的發展方向嗎部長你覺得咧跟我們報告教育一直都在演變環境也一直在演變適時的讓各界來參與把現況做一些討論跟我覺得是有必要啦因為教育跟著快的速度非常快產業變化我也知道那個絕對不是我們當時所想像所以整個30年台灣教育的變革即使是多面向\n\n15\n00:05:28,641 --> 00:05:45,172\n那碰到嫂子林化後﹐確實我們面對當時﹐本來所希望讓孩子有更多接受高等教育的機會﹐以現在來看﹐確實是跟嫂子化這個有很大的﹐因為你都沒有正確我的問題回答﹐沒關係﹐我是覺得如果要負責任的話﹐應該真的要召開一個全國會議﹐因為說實在的﹐教改30年﹐他當初定的是一個長程的規劃﹐\n\n16\n00:05:54,699 --> 00:06:19,194\n但是這個長程都沒有達到﹖所以我們是應該再開一個會﹖再重新訂一個短程、中程、長程的規劃﹖如果說你每一年在做小幅的調整﹖削足市旅﹖我覺得是達不到那個目標的﹖所以希望教育部可以真的是召集全國專家徹底的檢討一下﹖那也就是因為李遠哲他們廣設大學造成現在有很多大學要退場了﹖對吧﹖\n\n17\n00:06:20,074 --> 00:06:39,452\n我們看到這個是教育部給我們的報告裡面就寫的一百年是我們所有學校的高峰163間嘛那112年現在只剩145間所以其實大學退場是很快的那現在很多大學因為因應超高齡的社會所以實際上是想要把原本的學校的校地去轉做長照對吧應該是這樣對不對\n\n18\n00:06:41,153 --> 00:06:55,127\n應該說有些學校如果設有相關這個科系他是可以這樣分社好那問題就在這裡了其實很多學校他們是設在偏鄉因為很多準備要退場的學校就是在偏鄉偏鄉他就是\n\n19\n00:06:55,908 --> 00:06:56,108\n主席\n\n20\n00:07:15,143 --> 00:07:24,611\n可不可以是在一定的規定底下讓他們也可以...應該不是唯一護理系是跟相關科系這個從學校來講因為學校主體還是辦學如果說他能夠增加這一方面科系的規劃而且也符合台灣未來高齡社會的需求教育部本身你的第一個就是他第一個門檻就比較高第二個教育部要更精益去輔導因為現在退場的非常多的學校然後第二我給教育部一個建議就是說\n\n21\n00:07:43,487 --> 00:08:01,045\n如果有這些學校他未來退場之後做長照或做高齡教育啊你們要去稽查你們要去考核就是他高齡教育到底做的怎麼樣因為根據我個人我之前研究或是我的觀察很多高齡教育都開個課程長輩來上有吃東西了認識一些人就結束這個對於活躍老化一點幫助都沒有啊\n\n22\n00:08:01,385 --> 00:08:26,020\n你真正要做活躍老化應該是一個班級你有系統性的針對身體心理心靈甚至人際健康各方面的課程規劃還有前側後側有一個整體系統性的讓他們來上這個才有幫助如果一般只是說來這邊老人共餐一下然後上個課然後怎麼一個禮拜來兩天然後愛來不來的其實這個效果是非常有限\n\n23\n00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:41,889\n所以我們如果要做高齡教育我們要認真做要因應高齡社會的變化再來就是說未來的我們現在對待長輩的態度也要跟以前不一樣過去大家對待長輩就是好像就把長輩業務放在衛生局或放在社會局衛生局就是說\n\n24\n00:08:43,129 --> 00:09:11,722\n你讓你健康好一點不要用太多健保社會就會給你一點福利現在對待長輩不是用這種態度他們已經成為我們社會的主體了我們要把長輩當作目的不是只是把他當作好像會連累我們社會的一群人我們要以他們為主所以你在做高齡教育的時候也要實際上去調查這些長輩他實際上他想要學的課程是什麼他能不能透過他比如說退休之後學習到東西可以補足他這人生也許他兒童年齡童年時代的缺憾\n\n25\n00:09:12,082 --> 00:09:28,063\n就說大家要去調查一下長輩的需求所以我覺得大學退場做長照我非常支持希望教育部可以鬆綁看是法律上面還是怎麼樣然後要協助要去幫助他們要去精進這高齡教育的課程我覺得才是我覺得才是比較有幫助的啦\n\n26\n00:09:28,851 --> 00:09:30,653\n主席我要增加他30秒因為他扯到那裡我肯定委員還這麼說\n\n27\n00:09:56,135 --> 00:09:57,895\n現在你知道大學大學現在面臨到一個問題就是除了招生困難之外還要留下學生你知道嗎\n\n28\n00:10:22,481 --> 00:10:22,701\n最後我在30秒我講一下\n\n29\n00:10:52,386 --> 00:11:03,732\n這是我一個陳情案有代理教師跟我陳情他說為什麼他們從別的縣市轉任過來到其他縣市過去在別的縣市的代理教師年資不能夠銜接這個部長你知道這個問題嗎這個有一個釋憲案這釋憲案我覺得問題根本就不需要釋憲嘛\n\n30\n00:11:09,956 --> 00:11:30,073\n你教育部不能把這個東西推給地方啦為什麼呢因為每一個縣市政府也有約聘人員嘛那約聘人員能不能夠累積他過去在別的地方的年資都是可以為什麼因為這是中央統定定定的規定啊那為什麼只有在代理教師這一塊你就說我要尊重我要去尊重什麼地方自治各縣市自己決定\n\n31\n00:11:30,914 --> 00:11:43,732\n這是教育部不願意沒有肩膀把這個東西甩鍋給地方你只要有肩膀你直接定說這個東西跟地方政府的約聘人員一樣我們統一一定要銜接年資就結了嘛為什麼要讓代理教師去釋憲\n\n32\n00:11:45,553 --> 00:12:02,181\n我突然覺得那代理教室很可憐欸代理教室不是教師嗎?不是軍公教人員嗎?他們沒有去學校上課嗎?為什麼他們還需要為了自己權益去打憲法官司?部長你看到你的下面的這些老師你要照顧的老師需要這樣子維護自己權益你都不會覺得很難過喔?\n\n33\n00:12:03,061 --> 00:12:15,025\n委員我們所努力的發函代理老師的訊息這都是在去年大家一起努力跟縣市一起努力啦沒有我現在我現在在講的是這個案子這些訊息啊等一下我又要加20秒了你不要扯別的\n\n34\n00:12:20,046 --> 00:12:45,078\n我先講回答委員的問題我先講是累積年資的問題委員代理老師要不是去年全國一致代理老師的聘用年12個月幾個月都是不一致這個我都支持你啦我現在講的是別的議題啦不是啦委員我們大家一起努力啦不是你就肩膀扛起來你發一個文各縣市政府說代理教師就跟縣市政府約聘人員一樣全國統一適用所有年資都可以累積\n\n35\n00:12:45,939 --> 00:12:46,139\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7671\t35754\t麻煩請部長謝謝好 部長委員好部長我們今天是討論教改議題講到教改就很難不講到一個人李遠哲因為我看到李遠哲昨天有出來謝哲他說其實教改沒有問題大家罵他是因為他2000年的時候支持民進黨你認同他講這句話嗎我不曉得李院長怎麼說他就這樣說你認同嗎\n37642\t62571\t我尊重他的說法尊重那你認同嗎沒有尊重我沒有什麼認同不認同你不敢講沒關係你不敢講我個人是非常不認同他說廣設大學和他無關而且他還拉台積電的董事長劉德英幫他背書他說劉德英講說教改會的成果真的是非常了不起這是李遠哲講的我們來看一下他2014年說什麼\n63831\t87898\t他2014年因為是當時教改虧弄20年嘛今年是30年嘛那李遠哲講說他自己講到教改沒有成功是因為社會沒有公平正義那你自己就已經講了教改沒成功了嘛你在10年前說教改沒成功10年後你說教育教改很棒連劉德英都稱讚我那我不懂這個李遠哲是不是10年來是不同的李遠哲講話可以這樣子前後矛盾啊\n88678\t93411\t然後我們再來看廣設大學和他有沒有關係喔我們特別去看了民國\n95481\t122163\t當時就是30年前教改會的報告你可以看到他其中有一個建議就是要發展各具特色高等學府其中就包括要有綜合型大學研究型大學技術學院多元技術學院科技大學開放大學社區學院要容納所有要接受不同型態高等教育的人口那台灣這麼小大學這麼有限你要符合這麼多的特色這麼多的類型你不管設大學要怎麼完成要怎麼達到\n123164\t147773\t所以這就明明就是當時他們的建議嘛現在可以甩鍋說這個東西跟他無關然後再來我們來看當時他說高等要發展廣設大學各具特色的高等教育學府有什麼配套措施我們來看他其中有一項他其中有一項就說要讓要解除學費的限制要讓各大學開放隨便他們去收學費我就問啊經歷了這30年經歷了這30年我沒有開放學費限制嗎\n151934\t176187\t有放寬嗎?沒有!我們不僅是沒有放寬而且我們現在是讓大家學費幾乎一樣因為我們現在有補助私校的學生所以30年來他所謂的配套和他當時的主張根本背道而馳然後我們再來看當時的教改會也有推動一個叫做多元入學方案李遠哲說這個入學這是他講的2014年他說的他說多元入學考試\n177728\t206767\t就是不公不義啦因為他會造成更大的落差因為鄉下的孩子會提早在多元入學的這個規則下面出局這是他的原話我一個字都沒有加然後你去看他民國85年他的報告上面就寫著要推動多元入學制度就他講的喔然後甚至於多元入學制度的配套是什麼呢他的目標是什麼呢他寫說長期我們整個入學我們要以申請為主\n208290\t214867\t要以申請為主喔我們用紅色框下來說要申請為主啊那我問一下部長30年我們現在是申請為主嗎\n216211\t235707\t跟委員報告是不是還有考試有沒有學測有沒有指考有沒有講的是入學的幾個多元管道對嘛現在我們在進行的還有推薦繁星入學啊我知道啦那是不是以這個為主嘛是不是一半以上都是這個嘛是不是嘛現在推增加那個是超過50%超過50%那是多少50所以他講的為主是50喔\n238689\t245894\t我現在要講就是說一個當初提出要教改的人講話前後矛盾然後當初的主張後來不敢承認甚至於後來他的講法已經打臉了他當時的主張那這證明什麼一件事這證明說我們教改就失敗了嘛\n267589\t274111\t如果沒有失敗的話那教改會的召集人何必講話要這樣前後矛盾我都不曉得哪一個是李遠哲了啊\n274844\t298064\t所以現在被改得亂七八糟難道教育部你們不應該可是快要換部長但是現在還有一個多月難道教育部不該召開一個全國的教育會議嗎把這30年來這種亂七八糟亂象重新做一個檢討嗎不管是入學的升學制度或者是大學的這個廣設大學所造成的後遺症\n299085\t327681\t那麼多的問題 難道真的不應該開一個會讓大家重新定一個未來的發展方向嗎 部長你覺得咧跟我們報告 教育一直都在演變 環境也一直在演變適時的讓各界來參與 把現況做一些討論跟我覺得是有必要啦 因為教育跟著快的速度非常快 產業變化我也知道那個絕對不是我們當時所想像 所以整個30年台灣教育的變革即使是多面向\n328641\t345172\t那碰到嫂子林化後﹐確實我們面對當時﹐本來所希望讓孩子有更多接受高等教育的機會﹐以現在來看﹐確實是跟嫂子化這個有很大的﹐因為你都沒有正確我的問題回答﹐沒關係﹐我是覺得如果要負責任的話﹐應該真的要召開一個全國會議﹐因為說實在的﹐教改30年﹐他當初定的是一個長程的規劃﹐\n354699\t379194\t但是這個長程都沒有達到﹖所以我們是應該再開一個會﹖再重新訂一個短程、中程、長程的規劃﹖如果說你每一年在做小幅的調整﹖削足市旅﹖我覺得是達不到那個目標的﹖所以希望教育部可以真的是召集全國專家徹底的檢討一下﹖那也就是因為李遠哲他們廣設大學造成現在有很多大學要退場了﹖對吧﹖\n380074\t399452\t我們看到這個是教育部給我們的報告裡面就寫的一百年是我們所有學校的高峰163間嘛那112年現在只剩145間所以其實大學退場是很快的那現在很多大學因為因應超高齡的社會所以實際上是想要把原本的學校的校地去轉做長照對吧應該是這樣對不對\n401153\t415127\t應該說有些學校如果設有相關這個科系他是可以這樣分社好 那問題就在這裡了其實很多學校他們是設在偏鄉因為很多準備要退場的學校就是在偏鄉偏鄉他就是\n415908\t416108\t主席\n435143\t444611\t可不可以是在一定的規定底下讓他們也可以...應該不是唯一護理系是跟相關科系這個從學校來講因為學校主體還是辦學如果說他能夠增加這一方面科系的規劃而且也符合台灣未來高齡社會的需求教育部本身你的第一個就是他第一個門檻就比較高第二個教育部要更精益去輔導因為現在退場的非常多的學校然後第二我給教育部一個建議就是說\n463487\t481045\t如果有這些學校他未來退場之後做長照或做高齡教育啊你們要去稽查你們要去考核就是他高齡教育到底做的怎麼樣因為根據我個人我之前研究或是我的觀察很多高齡教育都開個課程長輩來上有吃東西了認識一些人就結束這個對於活躍老化一點幫助都沒有啊\n481385\t506020\t你真正要做活躍老化應該是一個班級你有系統性的針對身體心理心靈甚至人際健康各方面的課程規劃還有前側後側有一個整體系統性的讓他們來上這個才有幫助如果一般只是說來這邊老人共餐一下然後上個課然後怎麼一個禮拜來兩天然後愛來不來的其實這個效果是非常有限\n506520\t521889\t所以我們如果要做高齡教育我們要認真做要因應高齡社會的變化再來就是說未來的我們現在對待長輩的態度也要跟以前不一樣過去大家對待長輩就是好像就把長輩業務放在衛生局或放在社會局衛生局就是說\n523129\t551722\t你讓你健康好一點不要用太多健保社會就會給你一點福利現在對待長輩不是用這種態度他們已經成為我們社會的主體了我們要把長輩當作目的不是只是把他當作好像會連累我們社會的一群人我們要以他們為主所以你在做高齡教育的時候也要實際上去調查這些長輩他實際上他想要學的課程是什麼他能不能透過他比如說退休之後學習到東西可以補足他這人生也許他兒童年齡童年時代的缺憾\n552082\t568063\t就說大家要去調查一下長輩的需求所以我覺得大學退場做長照我非常支持希望教育部可以鬆綁看是法律上面還是怎麼樣然後要協助要去幫助他們要去精進這高齡教育的課程我覺得才是我覺得才是比較有幫助的啦\n568851\t570653\t主席我要增加他30秒因為他扯到那裡我肯定委員還這麼說\n596135\t597895\t現在你知道大學大學現在面臨到一個問題就是除了招生困難之外還要留下學生你知道嗎\n622481\t622701\t最後我在30秒我講一下\n652386\t663732\t這是我一個陳情案有代理教師跟我陳情他說為什麼他們從別的縣市轉任過來到其他縣市過去在別的縣市的代理教師年資不能夠銜接這個部長你知道這個問題嗎這個有一個釋憲案這釋憲案我覺得問題根本就不需要釋憲嘛\n669956\t690073\t你教育部不能把這個東西推給地方啦為什麼呢因為每一個縣市政府也有約聘人員嘛那約聘人員能不能夠累積他過去在別的地方的年資都是可以為什麼因為這是中央統定定定的規定啊那為什麼只有在代理教師這一塊你就說我要尊重我要去尊重什麼地方自治各縣市自己決定\n690914\t703732\t這是教育部不願意沒有肩膀把這個東西甩鍋給地方你只要有肩膀你直接定說這個東西跟地方政府的約聘人員一樣我們統一一定要銜接年資就結了嘛為什麼要讓代理教師去釋憲\n705553\t722181\t我突然覺得那代理教室很可憐欸代理教室不是教師嗎?不是軍公教人員嗎?他們沒有去學校上課嗎?為什麼他們還需要為了自己權益去打憲法官司?部長你看到你的下面的這些老師你要照顧的老師需要這樣子維護自己權益你都不會覺得很難過喔?\n723061\t735025\t委員我們所努力的 發函代理老師的訊息 這都是在去年大家一起努力 跟縣市一起努力啦沒有我現在 我現在在講的是這個案子 這些訊息啊 等一下我又要加20秒了 你不要扯別的\n740046\t765078\t我先講回答委員的問題我先講是累積年資的問題委員 代理老師要不是去年全國一致代理老師的聘用年12個月幾個月都是不一致這個我都支持你啦我現在講的是別的議題啦不是啦 委員我們大家一起努力啦不是 你就肩膀扛起來你發一個文 各縣市政府說代理教師就跟縣市政府約聘人員一樣全國統一適用所有年資都可以累積\n765939\t766139\t主席\n","txt":"麻煩請部長謝謝好 部長委員好部長我們今天是討論教改議題講到教改就很難不講到一個人李遠哲因為我看到李遠哲昨天有出來謝哲他說其實教改沒有問題大家罵他是因為他2000年的時候支持民進黨你認同他講這句話嗎我不曉得李院長怎麼說他就這樣說你認同嗎\n我尊重他的說法尊重那你認同嗎沒有尊重我沒有什麼認同不認同你不敢講沒關係你不敢講我個人是非常不認同他說廣設大學和他無關而且他還拉台積電的董事長劉德英幫他背書他說劉德英講說教改會的成果真的是非常了不起這是李遠哲講的我們來看一下他2014年說什麼\n他2014年因為是當時教改虧弄20年嘛今年是30年嘛那李遠哲講說他自己講到教改沒有成功是因為社會沒有公平正義那你自己就已經講了教改沒成功了嘛你在10年前說教改沒成功10年後你說教育教改很棒連劉德英都稱讚我那我不懂這個李遠哲是不是10年來是不同的李遠哲講話可以這樣子前後矛盾啊\n然後我們再來看廣設大學和他有沒有關係喔我們特別去看了民國\n當時就是30年前教改會的報告你可以看到他其中有一個建議就是要發展各具特色高等學府其中就包括要有綜合型大學研究型大學技術學院多元技術學院科技大學開放大學社區學院要容納所有要接受不同型態高等教育的人口那台灣這麼小大學這麼有限你要符合這麼多的特色這麼多的類型你不管設大學要怎麼完成要怎麼達到\n所以這就明明就是當時他們的建議嘛現在可以甩鍋說這個東西跟他無關然後再來我們來看當時他說高等要發展廣設大學各具特色的高等教育學府有什麼配套措施我們來看他其中有一項他其中有一項就說要讓要解除學費的限制要讓各大學開放隨便他們去收學費我就問啊經歷了這30年經歷了這30年我沒有開放學費限制嗎\n有放寬嗎?沒有!我們不僅是沒有放寬而且我們現在是讓大家學費幾乎一樣因為我們現在有補助私校的學生所以30年來他所謂的配套和他當時的主張根本背道而馳然後我們再來看當時的教改會也有推動一個叫做多元入學方案李遠哲說這個入學這是他講的2014年他說的他說多元入學考試\n就是不公不義啦因為他會造成更大的落差因為鄉下的孩子會提早在多元入學的這個規則下面出局這是他的原話我一個字都沒有加然後你去看他民國85年他的報告上面就寫著要推動多元入學制度就他講的喔然後甚至於多元入學制度的配套是什麼呢他的目標是什麼呢他寫說長期我們整個入學我們要以申請為主\n要以申請為主喔我們用紅色框下來說要申請為主啊那我問一下部長30年我們現在是申請為主嗎\n跟委員報告是不是還有考試有沒有學測有沒有指考有沒有講的是入學的幾個多元管道對嘛現在我們在進行的還有推薦繁星入學啊我知道啦那是不是以這個為主嘛是不是一半以上都是這個嘛是不是嘛現在推增加那個是超過50%超過50%那是多少50所以他講的為主是50喔\n我現在要講就是說一個當初提出要教改的人講話前後矛盾然後當初的主張後來不敢承認甚至於後來他的講法已經打臉了他當時的主張那這證明什麼一件事這證明說我們教改就失敗了嘛\n如果沒有失敗的話那教改會的召集人何必講話要這樣前後矛盾我都不曉得哪一個是李遠哲了啊\n所以現在被改得亂七八糟難道教育部你們不應該可是快要換部長但是現在還有一個多月難道教育部不該召開一個全國的教育會議嗎把這30年來這種亂七八糟亂象重新做一個檢討嗎不管是入學的升學制度或者是大學的這個廣設大學所造成的後遺症\n那麼多的問題 難道真的不應該開一個會讓大家重新定一個未來的發展方向嗎 部長你覺得咧跟我們報告 教育一直都在演變 環境也一直在演變適時的讓各界來參與 把現況做一些討論跟我覺得是有必要啦 因為教育跟著快的速度非常快 產業變化我也知道那個絕對不是我們當時所想像 所以整個30年台灣教育的變革即使是多面向\n那碰到嫂子林化後﹐確實我們面對當時﹐本來所希望讓孩子有更多接受高等教育的機會﹐以現在來看﹐確實是跟嫂子化這個有很大的﹐因為你都沒有正確我的問題回答﹐沒關係﹐我是覺得如果要負責任的話﹐應該真的要召開一個全國會議﹐因為說實在的﹐教改30年﹐他當初定的是一個長程的規劃﹐\n但是這個長程都沒有達到﹖所以我們是應該再開一個會﹖再重新訂一個短程、中程、長程的規劃﹖如果說你每一年在做小幅的調整﹖削足市旅﹖我覺得是達不到那個目標的﹖所以希望教育部可以真的是召集全國專家徹底的檢討一下﹖那也就是因為李遠哲他們廣設大學造成現在有很多大學要退場了﹖對吧﹖\n我們看到這個是教育部給我們的報告裡面就寫的一百年是我們所有學校的高峰163間嘛那112年現在只剩145間所以其實大學退場是很快的那現在很多大學因為因應超高齡的社會所以實際上是想要把原本的學校的校地去轉做長照對吧應該是這樣對不對\n應該說有些學校如果設有相關這個科系他是可以這樣分社好 那問題就在這裡了其實很多學校他們是設在偏鄉因為很多準備要退場的學校就是在偏鄉偏鄉他就是\n主席\n可不可以是在一定的規定底下讓他們也可以...應該不是唯一護理系是跟相關科系這個從學校來講因為學校主體還是辦學如果說他能夠增加這一方面科系的規劃而且也符合台灣未來高齡社會的需求教育部本身你的第一個就是他第一個門檻就比較高第二個教育部要更精益去輔導因為現在退場的非常多的學校然後第二我給教育部一個建議就是說\n如果有這些學校他未來退場之後做長照或做高齡教育啊你們要去稽查你們要去考核就是他高齡教育到底做的怎麼樣因為根據我個人我之前研究或是我的觀察很多高齡教育都開個課程長輩來上有吃東西了認識一些人就結束這個對於活躍老化一點幫助都沒有啊\n你真正要做活躍老化應該是一個班級你有系統性的針對身體心理心靈甚至人際健康各方面的課程規劃還有前側後側有一個整體系統性的讓他們來上這個才有幫助如果一般只是說來這邊老人共餐一下然後上個課然後怎麼一個禮拜來兩天然後愛來不來的其實這個效果是非常有限\n所以我們如果要做高齡教育我們要認真做要因應高齡社會的變化再來就是說未來的我們現在對待長輩的態度也要跟以前不一樣過去大家對待長輩就是好像就把長輩業務放在衛生局或放在社會局衛生局就是說\n你讓你健康好一點不要用太多健保社會就會給你一點福利現在對待長輩不是用這種態度他們已經成為我們社會的主體了我們要把長輩當作目的不是只是把他當作好像會連累我們社會的一群人我們要以他們為主所以你在做高齡教育的時候也要實際上去調查這些長輩他實際上他想要學的課程是什麼他能不能透過他比如說退休之後學習到東西可以補足他這人生也許他兒童年齡童年時代的缺憾\n就說大家要去調查一下長輩的需求所以我覺得大學退場做長照我非常支持希望教育部可以鬆綁看是法律上面還是怎麼樣然後要協助要去幫助他們要去精進這高齡教育的課程我覺得才是我覺得才是比較有幫助的啦\n主席我要增加他30秒因為他扯到那裡我肯定委員還這麼說\n現在你知道大學大學現在面臨到一個問題就是除了招生困難之外還要留下學生你知道嗎\n最後我在30秒我講一下\n這是我一個陳情案有代理教師跟我陳情他說為什麼他們從別的縣市轉任過來到其他縣市過去在別的縣市的代理教師年資不能夠銜接這個部長你知道這個問題嗎這個有一個釋憲案這釋憲案我覺得問題根本就不需要釋憲嘛\n你教育部不能把這個東西推給地方啦為什麼呢因為每一個縣市政府也有約聘人員嘛那約聘人員能不能夠累積他過去在別的地方的年資都是可以為什麼因為這是中央統定定定的規定啊那為什麼只有在代理教師這一塊你就說我要尊重我要去尊重什麼地方自治各縣市自己決定\n這是教育部不願意沒有肩膀把這個東西甩鍋給地方你只要有肩膀你直接定說這個東西跟地方政府的約聘人員一樣我們統一一定要銜接年資就結了嘛為什麼要讓代理教師去釋憲\n我突然覺得那代理教室很可憐欸代理教室不是教師嗎?不是軍公教人員嗎?他們沒有去學校上課嗎?為什麼他們還需要為了自己權益去打憲法官司?部長你看到你的下面的這些老師你要照顧的老師需要這樣子維護自己權益你都不會覺得很難過喔?\n委員我們所努力的 發函代理老師的訊息 這都是在去年大家一起努力 跟縣市一起努力啦沒有我現在 我現在在講的是這個案子 這些訊息啊 等一下我又要加20秒了 你不要扯別的\n我先講回答委員的問題我先講是累積年資的問題委員 代理老師要不是去年全國一致代理老師的聘用年12個月幾個月都是不一致這個我都支持你啦我現在講的是別的議題啦不是啦 委員我們大家一起努力啦不是 你就肩膀扛起來你發一個文 各縣市政府說代理教師就跟縣市政府約聘人員一樣全國統一適用所有年資都可以累積\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.671 --> 00:35.754\n麻煩請部長謝謝好部長委員好部長我們今天是討論教改議題講到教改就很難不講到一個人李遠哲因為我看到李遠哲昨天有出來謝哲他說其實教改沒有問題大家罵他是因為他2000年的時候支持民進黨你認同他講這句話嗎我不曉得李院長怎麼說他就這樣說你認同嗎\n\n00:37.642 --> 01:02.571\n我尊重他的說法尊重那你認同嗎沒有尊重我沒有什麼認同不認同你不敢講沒關係你不敢講我個人是非常不認同他說廣設大學和他無關而且他還拉台積電的董事長劉德英幫他背書他說劉德英講說教改會的成果真的是非常了不起這是李遠哲講的我們來看一下他2014年說什麼\n\n01:03.831 --> 01:27.898\n他2014年因為是當時教改虧弄20年嘛今年是30年嘛那李遠哲講說他自己講到教改沒有成功是因為社會沒有公平正義那你自己就已經講了教改沒成功了嘛你在10年前說教改沒成功10年後你說教育教改很棒連劉德英都稱讚我那我不懂這個李遠哲是不是10年來是不同的李遠哲講話可以這樣子前後矛盾啊\n\n01:28.678 --> 01:33.411\n然後我們再來看廣設大學和他有沒有關係喔我們特別去看了民國\n\n01:35.481 --> 02:02.163\n當時就是30年前教改會的報告你可以看到他其中有一個建議就是要發展各具特色高等學府其中就包括要有綜合型大學研究型大學技術學院多元技術學院科技大學開放大學社區學院要容納所有要接受不同型態高等教育的人口那台灣這麼小大學這麼有限你要符合這麼多的特色這麼多的類型你不管設大學要怎麼完成要怎麼達到\n\n02:03.164 --> 02:27.773\n所以這就明明就是當時他們的建議嘛現在可以甩鍋說這個東西跟他無關然後再來我們來看當時他說高等要發展廣設大學各具特色的高等教育學府有什麼配套措施我們來看他其中有一項他其中有一項就說要讓要解除學費的限制要讓各大學開放隨便他們去收學費我就問啊經歷了這30年經歷了這30年我沒有開放學費限制嗎\n\n02:31.934 --> 02:56.187\n有放寬嗎?沒有!我們不僅是沒有放寬而且我們現在是讓大家學費幾乎一樣因為我們現在有補助私校的學生所以30年來他所謂的配套和他當時的主張根本背道而馳然後我們再來看當時的教改會也有推動一個叫做多元入學方案李遠哲說這個入學這是他講的2014年他說的他說多元入學考試\n\n02:57.728 --> 03:26.767\n就是不公不義啦因為他會造成更大的落差因為鄉下的孩子會提早在多元入學的這個規則下面出局這是他的原話我一個字都沒有加然後你去看他民國85年他的報告上面就寫著要推動多元入學制度就他講的喔然後甚至於多元入學制度的配套是什麼呢他的目標是什麼呢他寫說長期我們整個入學我們要以申請為主\n\n03:28.290 --> 03:34.867\n要以申請為主喔我們用紅色框下來說要申請為主啊那我問一下部長30年我們現在是申請為主嗎\n\n03:36.211 --> 03:55.707\n跟委員報告是不是還有考試有沒有學測有沒有指考有沒有講的是入學的幾個多元管道對嘛現在我們在進行的還有推薦繁星入學啊我知道啦那是不是以這個為主嘛是不是一半以上都是這個嘛是不是嘛現在推增加那個是超過50%超過50%那是多少50所以他講的為主是50喔\n\n03:58.689 --> 04:05.894\n我現在要講就是說一個當初提出要教改的人講話前後矛盾然後當初的主張後來不敢承認甚至於後來他的講法已經打臉了他當時的主張那這證明什麼一件事這證明說我們教改就失敗了嘛\n\n04:27.589 --> 04:34.111\n如果沒有失敗的話那教改會的召集人何必講話要這樣前後矛盾我都不曉得哪一個是李遠哲了啊\n\n04:34.844 --> 04:58.064\n所以現在被改得亂七八糟難道教育部你們不應該可是快要換部長但是現在還有一個多月難道教育部不該召開一個全國的教育會議嗎把這30年來這種亂七八糟亂象重新做一個檢討嗎不管是入學的升學制度或者是大學的這個廣設大學所造成的後遺症\n\n04:59.085 --> 05:27.681\n那麼多的問題難道真的不應該開一個會讓大家重新定一個未來的發展方向嗎部長你覺得咧跟我們報告教育一直都在演變環境也一直在演變適時的讓各界來參與把現況做一些討論跟我覺得是有必要啦因為教育跟著快的速度非常快產業變化我也知道那個絕對不是我們當時所想像所以整個30年台灣教育的變革即使是多面向\n\n05:28.641 --> 05:45.172\n那碰到嫂子林化後﹐確實我們面對當時﹐本來所希望讓孩子有更多接受高等教育的機會﹐以現在來看﹐確實是跟嫂子化這個有很大的﹐因為你都沒有正確我的問題回答﹐沒關係﹐我是覺得如果要負責任的話﹐應該真的要召開一個全國會議﹐因為說實在的﹐教改30年﹐他當初定的是一個長程的規劃﹐\n\n05:54.699 --> 06:19.194\n但是這個長程都沒有達到﹖所以我們是應該再開一個會﹖再重新訂一個短程、中程、長程的規劃﹖如果說你每一年在做小幅的調整﹖削足市旅﹖我覺得是達不到那個目標的﹖所以希望教育部可以真的是召集全國專家徹底的檢討一下﹖那也就是因為李遠哲他們廣設大學造成現在有很多大學要退場了﹖對吧﹖\n\n06:20.074 --> 06:39.452\n我們看到這個是教育部給我們的報告裡面就寫的一百年是我們所有學校的高峰163間嘛那112年現在只剩145間所以其實大學退場是很快的那現在很多大學因為因應超高齡的社會所以實際上是想要把原本的學校的校地去轉做長照對吧應該是這樣對不對\n\n06:41.153 --> 06:55.127\n應該說有些學校如果設有相關這個科系他是可以這樣分社好那問題就在這裡了其實很多學校他們是設在偏鄉因為很多準備要退場的學校就是在偏鄉偏鄉他就是\n\n06:55.908 --> 06:56.108\n主席\n\n07:15.143 --> 07:24.611\n可不可以是在一定的規定底下讓他們也可以...應該不是唯一護理系是跟相關科系這個從學校來講因為學校主體還是辦學如果說他能夠增加這一方面科系的規劃而且也符合台灣未來高齡社會的需求教育部本身你的第一個就是他第一個門檻就比較高第二個教育部要更精益去輔導因為現在退場的非常多的學校然後第二我給教育部一個建議就是說\n\n07:43.487 --> 08:01.045\n如果有這些學校他未來退場之後做長照或做高齡教育啊你們要去稽查你們要去考核就是他高齡教育到底做的怎麼樣因為根據我個人我之前研究或是我的觀察很多高齡教育都開個課程長輩來上有吃東西了認識一些人就結束這個對於活躍老化一點幫助都沒有啊\n\n08:01.385 --> 08:26.020\n你真正要做活躍老化應該是一個班級你有系統性的針對身體心理心靈甚至人際健康各方面的課程規劃還有前側後側有一個整體系統性的讓他們來上這個才有幫助如果一般只是說來這邊老人共餐一下然後上個課然後怎麼一個禮拜來兩天然後愛來不來的其實這個效果是非常有限\n\n08:26.520 --> 08:41.889\n所以我們如果要做高齡教育我們要認真做要因應高齡社會的變化再來就是說未來的我們現在對待長輩的態度也要跟以前不一樣過去大家對待長輩就是好像就把長輩業務放在衛生局或放在社會局衛生局就是說\n\n08:43.129 --> 09:11.722\n你讓你健康好一點不要用太多健保社會就會給你一點福利現在對待長輩不是用這種態度他們已經成為我們社會的主體了我們要把長輩當作目的不是只是把他當作好像會連累我們社會的一群人我們要以他們為主所以你在做高齡教育的時候也要實際上去調查這些長輩他實際上他想要學的課程是什麼他能不能透過他比如說退休之後學習到東西可以補足他這人生也許他兒童年齡童年時代的缺憾\n\n09:12.082 --> 09:28.063\n就說大家要去調查一下長輩的需求所以我覺得大學退場做長照我非常支持希望教育部可以鬆綁看是法律上面還是怎麼樣然後要協助要去幫助他們要去精進這高齡教育的課程我覺得才是我覺得才是比較有幫助的啦\n\n09:28.851 --> 09:30.653\n主席我要增加他30秒因為他扯到那裡我肯定委員還這麼說\n\n09:56.135 --> 09:57.895\n現在你知道大學大學現在面臨到一個問題就是除了招生困難之外還要留下學生你知道嗎\n\n10:22.481 --> 10:22.701\n最後我在30秒我講一下\n\n10:52.386 --> 11:03.732\n這是我一個陳情案有代理教師跟我陳情他說為什麼他們從別的縣市轉任過來到其他縣市過去在別的縣市的代理教師年資不能夠銜接這個部長你知道這個問題嗎這個有一個釋憲案這釋憲案我覺得問題根本就不需要釋憲嘛\n\n11:09.956 --> 11:30.073\n你教育部不能把這個東西推給地方啦為什麼呢因為每一個縣市政府也有約聘人員嘛那約聘人員能不能夠累積他過去在別的地方的年資都是可以為什麼因為這是中央統定定定的規定啊那為什麼只有在代理教師這一塊你就說我要尊重我要去尊重什麼地方自治各縣市自己決定\n\n11:30.914 --> 11:43.732\n這是教育部不願意沒有肩膀把這個東西甩鍋給地方你只要有肩膀你直接定說這個東西跟地方政府的約聘人員一樣我們統一一定要銜接年資就結了嘛為什麼要讓代理教師去釋憲\n\n11:45.553 --> 12:02.181\n我突然覺得那代理教室很可憐欸代理教室不是教師嗎?不是軍公教人員嗎?他們沒有去學校上課嗎?為什麼他們還需要為了自己權益去打憲法官司?部長你看到你的下面的這些老師你要照顧的老師需要這樣子維護自己權益你都不會覺得很難過喔?\n\n12:03.061 --> 12:15.025\n委員我們所努力的發函代理老師的訊息這都是在去年大家一起努力跟縣市一起努力啦沒有我現在我現在在講的是這個案子這些訊息啊等一下我又要加20秒了你不要扯別的\n\n12:20.046 --> 12:45.078\n我先講回答委員的問題我先講是累積年資的問題委員代理老師要不是去年全國一致代理老師的聘用年12個月幾個月都是不一致這個我都支持你啦我現在講的是別的議題啦不是啦委員我們大家一起努力啦不是你就肩膀扛起來你發一個文各縣市政府說代理教師就跟縣市政府約聘人員一樣全國統一適用所有年資都可以累積\n\n12:45.939 --> 12:46.139\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.671,"end":35.754,"text":"麻煩請部長謝謝好 部長委員好部長我們今天是討論教改議題講到教改就很難不講到一個人李遠哲因為我看到李遠哲昨天有出來謝哲他說其實教改沒有問題大家罵他是因為他2000年的時候支持民進黨你認同他講這句話嗎我不曉得李院長怎麼說他就這樣說你認同嗎"},{"start":37.642,"end":62.571,"text":"我尊重他的說法尊重那你認同嗎沒有尊重我沒有什麼認同不認同你不敢講沒關係你不敢講我個人是非常不認同他說廣設大學和他無關而且他還拉台積電的董事長劉德英幫他背書他說劉德英講說教改會的成果真的是非常了不起這是李遠哲講的我們來看一下他2014年說什麼"},{"start":63.831,"end":87.898,"text":"他2014年因為是當時教改虧弄20年嘛今年是30年嘛那李遠哲講說他自己講到教改沒有成功是因為社會沒有公平正義那你自己就已經講了教改沒成功了嘛你在10年前說教改沒成功10年後你說教育教改很棒連劉德英都稱讚我那我不懂這個李遠哲是不是10年來是不同的李遠哲講話可以這樣子前後矛盾啊"},{"start":88.678,"end":93.411,"text":"然後我們再來看廣設大學和他有沒有關係喔我們特別去看了民國"},{"start":95.481,"end":122.163,"text":"當時就是30年前教改會的報告你可以看到他其中有一個建議就是要發展各具特色高等學府其中就包括要有綜合型大學研究型大學技術學院多元技術學院科技大學開放大學社區學院要容納所有要接受不同型態高等教育的人口那台灣這麼小大學這麼有限你要符合這麼多的特色這麼多的類型你不管設大學要怎麼完成要怎麼達到"},{"start":123.164,"end":147.773,"text":"所以這就明明就是當時他們的建議嘛現在可以甩鍋說這個東西跟他無關然後再來我們來看當時他說高等要發展廣設大學各具特色的高等教育學府有什麼配套措施我們來看他其中有一項他其中有一項就說要讓要解除學費的限制要讓各大學開放隨便他們去收學費我就問啊經歷了這30年經歷了這30年我沒有開放學費限制嗎"},{"start":151.934,"end":176.187,"text":"有放寬嗎?沒有!我們不僅是沒有放寬而且我們現在是讓大家學費幾乎一樣因為我們現在有補助私校的學生所以30年來他所謂的配套和他當時的主張根本背道而馳然後我們再來看當時的教改會也有推動一個叫做多元入學方案李遠哲說這個入學這是他講的2014年他說的他說多元入學考試"},{"start":177.728,"end":206.767,"text":"就是不公不義啦因為他會造成更大的落差因為鄉下的孩子會提早在多元入學的這個規則下面出局這是他的原話我一個字都沒有加然後你去看他民國85年他的報告上面就寫著要推動多元入學制度就他講的喔然後甚至於多元入學制度的配套是什麼呢他的目標是什麼呢他寫說長期我們整個入學我們要以申請為主"},{"start":208.29,"end":214.867,"text":"要以申請為主喔我們用紅色框下來說要申請為主啊那我問一下部長30年我們現在是申請為主嗎"},{"start":216.211,"end":235.707,"text":"跟委員報告是不是還有考試有沒有學測有沒有指考有沒有講的是入學的幾個多元管道對嘛現在我們在進行的還有推薦繁星入學啊我知道啦那是不是以這個為主嘛是不是一半以上都是這個嘛是不是嘛現在推增加那個是超過50%超過50%那是多少50所以他講的為主是50喔"},{"start":238.689,"end":245.894,"text":"我現在要講就是說一個當初提出要教改的人講話前後矛盾然後當初的主張後來不敢承認甚至於後來他的講法已經打臉了他當時的主張那這證明什麼一件事這證明說我們教改就失敗了嘛"},{"start":267.589,"end":274.111,"text":"如果沒有失敗的話那教改會的召集人何必講話要這樣前後矛盾我都不曉得哪一個是李遠哲了啊"},{"start":274.844,"end":298.064,"text":"所以現在被改得亂七八糟難道教育部你們不應該可是快要換部長但是現在還有一個多月難道教育部不該召開一個全國的教育會議嗎把這30年來這種亂七八糟亂象重新做一個檢討嗎不管是入學的升學制度或者是大學的這個廣設大學所造成的後遺症"},{"start":299.085,"end":327.681,"text":"那麼多的問題 難道真的不應該開一個會讓大家重新定一個未來的發展方向嗎 部長你覺得咧跟我們報告 教育一直都在演變 環境也一直在演變適時的讓各界來參與 把現況做一些討論跟我覺得是有必要啦 因為教育跟著快的速度非常快 產業變化我也知道那個絕對不是我們當時所想像 所以整個30年台灣教育的變革即使是多面向"},{"start":328.641,"end":345.172,"text":"那碰到嫂子林化後﹐確實我們面對當時﹐本來所希望讓孩子有更多接受高等教育的機會﹐以現在來看﹐確實是跟嫂子化這個有很大的﹐因為你都沒有正確我的問題回答﹐沒關係﹐我是覺得如果要負責任的話﹐應該真的要召開一個全國會議﹐因為說實在的﹐教改30年﹐他當初定的是一個長程的規劃﹐"},{"start":354.699,"end":379.194,"text":"但是這個長程都沒有達到﹖所以我們是應該再開一個會﹖再重新訂一個短程、中程、長程的規劃﹖如果說你每一年在做小幅的調整﹖削足市旅﹖我覺得是達不到那個目標的﹖所以希望教育部可以真的是召集全國專家徹底的檢討一下﹖那也就是因為李遠哲他們廣設大學造成現在有很多大學要退場了﹖對吧﹖"},{"start":380.074,"end":399.452,"text":"我們看到這個是教育部給我們的報告裡面就寫的一百年是我們所有學校的高峰163間嘛那112年現在只剩145間所以其實大學退場是很快的那現在很多大學因為因應超高齡的社會所以實際上是想要把原本的學校的校地去轉做長照對吧應該是這樣對不對"},{"start":401.153,"end":415.127,"text":"應該說有些學校如果設有相關這個科系他是可以這樣分社好 那問題就在這裡了其實很多學校他們是設在偏鄉因為很多準備要退場的學校就是在偏鄉偏鄉他就是"},{"start":415.908,"end":416.108,"text":"主席"},{"start":435.143,"end":444.611,"text":"可不可以是在一定的規定底下讓他們也可以...應該不是唯一護理系是跟相關科系這個從學校來講因為學校主體還是辦學如果說他能夠增加這一方面科系的規劃而且也符合台灣未來高齡社會的需求教育部本身你的第一個就是他第一個門檻就比較高第二個教育部要更精益去輔導因為現在退場的非常多的學校然後第二我給教育部一個建議就是說"},{"start":463.487,"end":481.045,"text":"如果有這些學校他未來退場之後做長照或做高齡教育啊你們要去稽查你們要去考核就是他高齡教育到底做的怎麼樣因為根據我個人我之前研究或是我的觀察很多高齡教育都開個課程長輩來上有吃東西了認識一些人就結束這個對於活躍老化一點幫助都沒有啊"},{"start":481.385,"end":506.02,"text":"你真正要做活躍老化應該是一個班級你有系統性的針對身體心理心靈甚至人際健康各方面的課程規劃還有前側後側有一個整體系統性的讓他們來上這個才有幫助如果一般只是說來這邊老人共餐一下然後上個課然後怎麼一個禮拜來兩天然後愛來不來的其實這個效果是非常有限"},{"start":506.52,"end":521.889,"text":"所以我們如果要做高齡教育我們要認真做要因應高齡社會的變化再來就是說未來的我們現在對待長輩的態度也要跟以前不一樣過去大家對待長輩就是好像就把長輩業務放在衛生局或放在社會局衛生局就是說"},{"start":523.129,"end":551.722,"text":"你讓你健康好一點不要用太多健保社會就會給你一點福利現在對待長輩不是用這種態度他們已經成為我們社會的主體了我們要把長輩當作目的不是只是把他當作好像會連累我們社會的一群人我們要以他們為主所以你在做高齡教育的時候也要實際上去調查這些長輩他實際上他想要學的課程是什麼他能不能透過他比如說退休之後學習到東西可以補足他這人生也許他兒童年齡童年時代的缺憾"},{"start":552.082,"end":568.063,"text":"就說大家要去調查一下長輩的需求所以我覺得大學退場做長照我非常支持希望教育部可以鬆綁看是法律上面還是怎麼樣然後要協助要去幫助他們要去精進這高齡教育的課程我覺得才是我覺得才是比較有幫助的啦"},{"start":568.851,"end":570.653,"text":"主席我要增加他30秒因為他扯到那裡我肯定委員還這麼說"},{"start":596.135,"end":597.895,"text":"現在你知道大學大學現在面臨到一個問題就是除了招生困難之外還要留下學生你知道嗎"},{"start":622.481,"end":622.701,"text":"最後我在30秒我講一下"},{"start":652.386,"end":663.732,"text":"這是我一個陳情案有代理教師跟我陳情他說為什麼他們從別的縣市轉任過來到其他縣市過去在別的縣市的代理教師年資不能夠銜接這個部長你知道這個問題嗎這個有一個釋憲案這釋憲案我覺得問題根本就不需要釋憲嘛"},{"start":669.956,"end":690.073,"text":"你教育部不能把這個東西推給地方啦為什麼呢因為每一個縣市政府也有約聘人員嘛那約聘人員能不能夠累積他過去在別的地方的年資都是可以為什麼因為這是中央統定定定的規定啊那為什麼只有在代理教師這一塊你就說我要尊重我要去尊重什麼地方自治各縣市自己決定"},{"start":690.914,"end":703.732,"text":"這是教育部不願意沒有肩膀把這個東西甩鍋給地方你只要有肩膀你直接定說這個東西跟地方政府的約聘人員一樣我們統一一定要銜接年資就結了嘛為什麼要讓代理教師去釋憲"},{"start":705.553,"end":722.181,"text":"我突然覺得那代理教室很可憐欸代理教室不是教師嗎?不是軍公教人員嗎?他們沒有去學校上課嗎?為什麼他們還需要為了自己權益去打憲法官司?部長你看到你的下面的這些老師你要照顧的老師需要這樣子維護自己權益你都不會覺得很難過喔?"},{"start":723.061,"end":735.025,"text":"委員我們所努力的 發函代理老師的訊息 這都是在去年大家一起努力 跟縣市一起努力啦沒有我現在 我現在在講的是這個案子 這些訊息啊 等一下我又要加20秒了 你不要扯別的"},{"start":740.046,"end":765.078,"text":"我先講回答委員的問題我先講是累積年資的問題委員 代理老師要不是去年全國一致代理老師的聘用年12個月幾個月都是不一致這個我都支持你啦我現在講的是別的議題啦不是啦 委員我們大家一起努力啦不是 你就肩膀扛起來你發一個文 各縣市政府說代理教師就跟縣市政府約聘人員一樣全國統一適用所有年資都可以累積"},{"start":765.939,"end":766.139,"text":"主席"}]}}}}