{"id":151290,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151290","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016274d3f1226e92c6c58068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c94158e5f3beada05b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:55:26 - 12:11:14","影片長度":"00:15:48","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":948,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:11:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:55:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時55分）謝謝主席，那我們有請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。我們知道現在國軍正在如火如荼進行漢光演習的準備，在第二階段的電腦輔助指揮所演習，時間是在4月19號到26號的8天7夜。我想要先請問部長，我們在全國軍旅級以上需要參演的單位，他們在19到26號的假單，我們都簽核過了嗎？"],["邱部長國正：這是公務統一帶過來……"],["陳次長文星：報告委員，我是聯三次長。這一次我們只針對旅級以上的指揮所來實施演練。其他營級以下的，都是維持正常的運作，包含他的休假跟外散事務，我們都不管制。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們來看一下，因為有滿多人提出來的，我們看一下那張圖片，這個是他們在內部裡面談到所謂的請假的部分，陸勤部的參謀長昨天晚上跟我們回報，要禮拜四18號下班前才要去批示這個假單。","現在演習時間已經快到了，你可以看它這個對話內容是問有人要請假嗎？是不是19到26號？他說「對」。然後對方回答他說：「NO」。他就說：「可是如果我們是有合理事故加證明的情況之下」。對方回答他說：「我們沒有」，然後「還是因為你們連假單都不給送」。那對方回答說：「對」。","我想要請問一下，像這樣子的對話，它的情況是什麼？如果我們的軍人弟兄真的有要事要請假的話，現在的狀態是連假單都不能去遞送的情形嗎？"],["劉參謀長青勳：委員好，我是陸勤部參謀長，向您說明一下。因為這一次是8天7夜，我們也非常清楚說跟往常的休假方式有改變，因為以往是5天4夜……"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["劉參謀長青勳：那這一次的話，從這個禮拜五到下禮拜五。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們知道。"],["劉參謀長青勳：我們會審慎評估之後，跟我們同仁講清楚、說明白。基本上他們有相關事故的部分，完成相關的佐證資料，都已經奉核，可以批示，沒有問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。"],["劉參謀長青勳：那後續如果有靈機性的婚喪喜慶的情況之下，也會個案來處理，跟您報告。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。那我希望你們可以去調查一下你們在陸軍司令部裡面的情況，因為或許你的認知是如此，但是我們在執行下去的時候，我們可以看到很清楚，這裡面的對話，相關人我們都查核過，確認有此事，只是因為今天要保護人家，所以我們姑隱其名，但是我是確認過情況的。","所以既然你也說到了，如果今天我們的國軍弟兄即便在這個情況下他要請假，他有合理的理由，你們不應該連假單都不給送。假單送了之後，你要核或不核，他所謂的合理事故合不合理，你們可以做評斷，但是我覺得不應該讓我們的國軍弟兄連假單送出去都不行。這個部分可不可以回去研究一下？"],["劉參謀長青勳：是。跟委員報告，溝通上出點問題而已，基本上這個相關我們會依據他的實際需求來實質地審認。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝！麻煩這件事情你們要回去做處理。","再來我們要問的是潛艦國造的部分，大家都非常地關心。我想要問一下邱部長，去年9月的時候您談過，潛艦國造的進度都是按照節點在管制的，請問當時您談這件事情的理由是什麼？為什麼當時你談到，我們在後續的潛艦預算編列是用節點管制的方式，在接下來的幾個測試通過之後，我們會陸續再慢慢地建軍。我想請您再重新說明一下，當時在9月的時候我們的整個規劃方向。"],["邱部長國正：每個工作推動有它的階段性，這就叫節點管制，重要節點我們把它管控了以後，有什麼好處呢？他可能準備不夠周延的，我們已經看出來。你要準備不夠周延，這個節點你達不到，我們要督促他。至於後續艦的建造，我當時也有講過，沒有錯！一定要經過我們測評以後，第一艘原艦沒有問題，才能夠投注於後面。那目前測評正在做嘛！測評正在做，那我們就講也得要預劃。如果做成，後面就要建案，但是這個不是一蹴可成的。總目標不會變，國艦國造、國機國造，但是我們節點管控是有必要的。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，好。我是非常同意剛剛邱部長講到的節點管制的部分，因為我們大家對於國艦國造都有期待，我們也希望一艘一艘地能夠依次、依序做好、辦好，所以我也覺得當時沒有去編列後續的預算，是因為我們前面的測試還沒有完成，這樣子的一個處理方式跟措施是正確的。","所以我想要問一下，在接下來的海鯤號，你們有預計什麼時候要去做HAT跟SAT的測試了嗎？你們就針對可以說的部分說就好了。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["邵參事維揚：報告委員，海鯤號目前正在執行HAT測試，HAT測試要全部完成之後，我們接續才會執行出海測試，所以說現在並沒有一個很明確的時間表。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。沒有很明確的時間表的情況之下，我們又配合剛剛談到的整個節點管制，後續所謂編列第2艘國艦國造的部分，會不會跟著這個期程有所往後延期的情況？請教部長。"],["邱部長國正：起步，他一定會看前面的結果，才能夠決定哪一天下一個叫起步。但這個計畫的起步時間點，我們用X也可以，用D也可以。整個計畫已經在做了，至於哪一天，那會變……"],["徐委員巧芯：知道。"],["邱部長國正：計畫一樣要做。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問一下，我們在SAT測試完成之前，會去編列第2艘的潛艦預算嗎？"],["邱部長國正：你們看，要作業費嘛！"],["邵參事維揚：報告委員，我們國軍的建軍主要是計畫等於預算，如果我們等到第一條船交艦之後才開始整備這個計畫，那我們可能要花相當的時間。"],["徐委員巧芯：那我請問一下，我們在第一艘的SAT測試做完之前，會編列第3艘潛艦計畫的預算嗎？我們不要講第2艘，第3艘會編嗎？"],["邵參事維揚：其實我們現在正在洽談中，因為預算到底要多少，報紙上面寫了很多的數字，都不一樣。不管是委員從哪邊拿到的資料，都不一樣，代表這個計畫預算編列部分是相當複雜的。我們剛剛……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們談的是一個邏……"],["邵參事維揚：讓我多講30秒，好不好？"],["徐委員巧芯：好，沒問題。來，請說。"],["邵參事維揚：我們剛剛在機密會議裡面已經說過，影響到裝備價款的部分有很多因素，包括……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個部分我還沒有問啦！我沒有要你講機密的部分，因為我要問的是一個邏輯。如果我們剛剛談的是所謂的節點管制必要性，我們也同意部長的說法，那大家也覺得你今天有做完海上測試之後，確認沒問題，你要開始啟動下一艘船艦，依序、依次地做法是合理的，我們都來支持。如果您剛剛談到的是，怕第一艘完成之後才編第2艘，中間會有一個空窗期，可是怎麼會又編到第3艘去呢？就是說你第一艘海上測試完之後，到了第2艘，這個中間有一個空窗期，所以你先編一些業務的費用，這個我們也能夠理解。","但是如果一次地把第2艘，不要講第3艘了，直接編到第8艘，直接把第2艘編到第8艘，全部兩千多億元以上一次編進去，這個有符合我們剛剛所說的包含節點管制的邏輯嗎？在邏輯上面來說，是不是有一些相違背的地方呢？部長？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，像剛才前面有委員給我們指導，預算編列都還沒有定，是逐年編，還是專案編，這也在研擬當中……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我們問的是這個邏輯上面，您覺得怎麼樣做比較正確？"],["邱部長國正：邏輯就是，他剛剛已經講得很清楚，叫計畫等於預算。我計畫都出來了，對不對？哪怕講最後編滿，那個計畫都出來了，但哪一天開始那個D日，那就要看我們前面進展如何。"],["徐委員巧芯：計畫出來了，那它配著預算要通過嗎？這是兩件不同的事。我們並不反對要把整個計畫都準備好，但是預算要編列，然後先通過嗎？這個是問題啊！"],["邱部長國正：不一定……"],["徐委員巧芯：不一定？"],["邱部長國正：你前面測試沒有過，後面編了預算，我也用不了啊！因為前面缺點要改過來啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以這個方向上的邏輯，今天講得比較清楚了。那再來我想要問一下，陳建仁院長前幾天突然要求軍中要推行轉型正義的教育，請問一下邱部長，您覺得目前在國軍裡面，哪一個部分要轉型正義了？"],["邱部長國正：這個我還沒有了解，軍中哪邊要轉型正義，軍中……"],["徐委員巧芯：他叫你們一個月以內，要籌設軍中轉型正義的外部專家諮詢小組，要朝向軍中……"],["邱部長國正：其實我們平常都有在跟轉型正義的工作人員，有相關部隊的會或軍中的會，他們都找我去開，在開會當中我們也會表達。當然我們軍中有很多做法也不能完全違背外面，但軍中有些機敏的，它不能跟外面一樣，所以我們該要堅持的堅持。"],["徐委員巧芯：是。"],["邱部長國正：至於我們要成立一個小組，我研究的方向也就如此，哪些可以配合，哪些不能配合。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們現在軍中的轉型正義的推動，部長你自己感覺到，有哪些事情是行政院希望你們來推動的？他們有沒有告訴你們，他要在軍中推動轉型正義教育，到底是在哪一個方面上，他覺得軍中沒有，因為一定是他覺得沒有做好，做的不夠多，才會希望推動來做，那是哪一個部分呢？"],["邱部長國正：假如他把這個項目講得很明確的話，我們就針對這個項目，明確的……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我請問一下，因為陳院長也沒有講得很清楚，如果是要求軍中要去除所有的蔣介石的銅像，部長，這樣子的轉型正義，您同意嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我已經講過了，這方面我有討論過，當初的規範很清楚，在公開場合他要怎麼處理我沒有意見，但營區是我們的財產，營區裡面所有東西都是國軍的財產，只要沒有違法，為什麼要去變呢？這我一貫的堅持啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：好。"],["邱部長國正：目前假如說要我們來做的話，光這一點，我有我的堅持，但我絕對要講得很清楚，不要認為我們行政團隊在那邊攪局。假如那個界定不清楚，第一個你講軍中是個開放團體，那我就問各位能不能接受？就光這一條，我不是開放團體，不是開放團體，這代表我的資產，我的資產要怎麼用？只要沒有違法，沒有去變賣，沒有去改變，我為什麼要去讓別的人來改變這個現狀呢？"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我是支持部長您的這個堅持。但最後還要一點時間問一下，就是我們一直很關心憲指部211的案子。先前已經兩次讓部長在這個地方，在我們委員會裡面談過了，您的態度我們都很認同，可是我們整個同仁在這個運作的過程當中，似乎是趕不太上的，所以已經過了好一陣子了，211的自傷案，你們也都提出，在這裡說要有檢討的報告，要來做，可是我們3月22號發函憲指部，跟4月12號發函國防部，都沒有回覆正式的公文。請問可不可以簡短的說明一下，當時承諾的211案？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，任何一件不幸的事情發生都讓大家遺憾，但我們依序追的話，一定從內部、外部通通來考量。記得上回我講一句話，有些人他的個性比較抗壓力不一樣的，後來委員就引用這句話，好像講得太殘酷了吧！我沒有要推這個責任，事情一發生，內部就要檢討，管理方面有沒有問題，工作分配是不是得當，有沒有管教不當的問題；外部他的感情方面、家庭方面、債務方面，這我們都要納入。檢討出來以後，我們不能公布，因為公布以後變成我們的獨斷了，會造成其他後遺症。既然檢調介入了，檢調的報告一定要為主，假如委員要這個報告，我們拿不出來，就是檢調還沒給我們，要是給我們檢調的就拿給委員看，這樣才公允。"],["徐委員巧芯：行政調查跟檢調的調查是兩件事情。"],["邱部長國正：不不不，但是我們知道行政調查的一發出去，人家就會立即偏頗。"],["徐委員巧芯：我舉一個例子來說，當初你們在質詢的時候，你們明明沒有去看班表，卻直接講已經確認過了，他就是站二歇六，這個不需要檢討嗎？這個部分的檢討報告跟檢察官有什麼關係？"],["邱部長國正：這個檢討報告不難，這檢討報告我們該要……"],["徐委員巧芯：那為什麼什麼都沒有呢？我們詢問了老半天也都沒有呢？所以我講的是，整個211的事件是非常多嘛！因為我時間不夠，所以不用給我答復，但是你們應該要提供書面的資料。"],["邱部長國正：委員又叫我不要答復，那結果就是我不理，好像我們在耍無賴一樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：不，我是說因為我的時間不夠，我要尊重主席，我時間夠的話你們可以講啊！主席如果同意的話可以讓他們講，我只是尊重主席的時間，好不好？那你們做答復，什麼時候……"],["主席：簡單回復一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：簡單好不好，後面還有很多人在排。"],["呂參謀長正芳：是，委員好。跟委員報告，因為當初我們做的這些行政調查，我們在3月26日移送給檢調的時候，都把我們當初所有的行政調查的報告，一併都移送給檢調。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們行政調查報告的部分，也不能提供給委員會？"],["呂參謀長正芳：因為我們都有提供給檢調的部分就沒辦法……"],["徐委員巧芯：行政調查的部分也都不能提供？"],["呂參謀長正芳：是，因為我們當初就是怕會有失公允，所以我們在行政調查的部分也一併給檢察官。"],["徐委員巧芯：最後我講一下，這就是我們現在的一個怪象，我告訴大家，剴剴案在衛環委員會，也是檢調在調查的案子，衛福部有沒有提供檢討報告給所有委員參考？是有的。所以這裡很多包含我們的主席都是非常資深的立法委員了，你剛剛的說法我是完全不能認同的，不然就是你說只有在國防委員會有這個狀況，其他的委員會裡面，行政調查跟檢調的調查是分開的，好不好，所以我想這個部分就到這裡，但是希望你們知道我的意思。"],["主席：其實行政調查部分也是大家現在在訴求的，到時候我覺得我們可能也要釐清清楚，就這個部分，謝謝！","接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"151290","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151290","tool":"pyannote","id":"151290-pyannote"},"job_id":"B4ekKNTSgegAVypV","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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\"報告委員現在海關號目前正在執行HAT測試那HAT測試要全部完成之後我們接續才會執行出海試測所以說現在並沒有一個很明確的時間表好那沒有很明確的時間表的情況之下我們又配合剛剛談到的整個節點管制那後續所謂編列第二艘這個國艦國造的部分那會不會跟著這個騎乘那有所往後延期的情況請教部長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 328.765, \"end\": 328.905, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 328.905, \"end\": 329.606, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 329.606, \"end\": 329.806, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"海\", \"start\": 329.806, \"end\": 330.266, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 330.266, \"end\": 330.446, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 330.446, \"end\": 330.707, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 330.707, \"end\": 330.867, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 330.867, \"end\": 331.187, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 331.187, \"end\": 331.507, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"H\", \"start\": 331.507, \"end\": 332.007, 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\"start\": 355.503, \"end\": 355.723, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 355.723, \"end\": 356.324, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"延\", \"start\": 356.324, \"end\": 356.624, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 356.624, \"end\": 356.764, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 356.764, \"end\": 356.924, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 356.924, \"end\": 357.064, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 357.064, \"end\": 357.084, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 357.084, \"end\": 357.104, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 358.865, \"end\": 361.708, \"text\": \"請問一下我們在SAT測試完成之前會去編列第二艘的潛艦預算嗎?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 358.865, \"end\": 359.126, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 359.126, \"end\": 359.306, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 359.306, \"end\": 359.746, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 359.746, \"end\": 360.046, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 360.046, \"end\": 360.066, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 360.066, \"end\": 360.206, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"T\", \"start\": 360.206, \"end\": 360.427, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"試\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 360.427, \"end\": 360.607, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 360.607, \"end\": 360.687, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 360.687, \"end\": 360.707, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 360.707, \"end\": 360.727, \"score\": 0.02}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 360.727, \"end\": 360.887, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"編\"}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 360.887, \"end\": 361.047, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 361.047, \"end\": 361.147, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 361.147, \"end\": 361.447, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"艘\", \"start\": 361.447, \"end\": 361.628, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 361.628, \"end\": 361.688, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"潛\"}, {\"word\": \"艦\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 361.688, \"end\": 361.708, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 384.954, \"end\": 408.399, \"text\": \"報告委員我們國軍的建軍主要是計劃等預算那如果我們等到第一條船交艦之後才開始準備這個計劃那我們可能要花相當的時間那我請問一下那我們在第一艘的SAT測試做完之前會編列第三艘的潛艦計劃嗎的預算嗎我們不要講第二艘第三艘要編嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 384.954, \"end\": 385.234, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 385.234, \"end\": 386.354, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 386.354, \"end\": 386.954, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 386.954, \"end\": 387.094, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 387.094, \"end\": 387.674, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", 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393.015, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"船\", \"start\": 393.015, \"end\": 394.436, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 394.436, \"end\": 394.876, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"艦\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 394.876, \"end\": 395.016, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 395.016, \"end\": 395.276, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 395.276, \"end\": 395.716, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 395.716, \"end\": 395.896, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 395.896, \"end\": 397.176, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"劃\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 397.176, \"end\": 397.296, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 397.296, \"end\": 397.496, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 397.496, \"end\": 397.596, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 397.596, \"end\": 397.796, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 397.796, \"end\": 397.816, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 397.816, \"end\": 397.976, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 397.976, \"end\": 398.356, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 398.356, \"end\": 398.657, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 398.657, \"end\": 398.797, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 398.797, \"end\": 399.277, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 399.277, \"end\": 399.397, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 399.397, \"end\": 399.577, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 399.577, \"end\": 399.737, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 399.737, \"end\": 399.897, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 399.897, \"end\": 400.117, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 400.117, \"end\": 400.237, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 400.237, \"end\": 400.397, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"艘\", \"start\": 400.397, \"end\": 400.597, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 400.597, \"end\": 400.937, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 400.937, \"end\": 401.437, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 401.437, \"end\": 401.657, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"T\", \"start\": 401.657, \"end\": 401.837, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"試\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 401.837, \"end\": 401.997, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 401.997, \"end\": 402.197, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 402.197, \"end\": 402.377, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 402.377, \"end\": 403.057, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"編\"}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 403.057, \"end\": 403.278, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 403.278, \"end\": 403.518, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 403.518, \"end\": 403.758, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"艘\", \"start\": 403.758, \"end\": 403.958, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 403.958, \"end\": 405.378, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"潛\"}, {\"word\": \"艦\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"劃\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 405.378, \"end\": 405.638, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 405.638, \"end\": 406.838, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 406.838, \"end\": 406.998, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 406.998, \"end\": 407.098, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 407.098, \"end\": 407.418, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 407.418, \"end\": 407.558, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 407.558, \"end\": 407.698, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"艘\", \"start\": 407.698, \"end\": 407.879, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 407.879, \"end\": 408.039, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 408.039, \"end\": 408.259, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"艘\", \"start\": 408.259, \"end\": 408.379, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 408.379, \"end\": 408.399, \"score\": 0.007}, {\"word\": \"編\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 411.417, \"end\": 431.221, \"text\": \"其實我們現在正在洽談中因為預算到底要多少那些報紙上面寫的很多的數字都不一樣不管是委員從哪邊拿到的資料都不一樣那代表這個計劃預算兵的部分是相當複雜的我們談的是一個那我多講30秒來請說那我們剛剛在機密會議裡面已經說過影響到裝備價款的部分有很多因素\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 411.417, \"end\": 411.657, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 411.657, \"end\": 411.957, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 411.957, \"end\": 412.077, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 412.077, \"end\": 412.237, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 412.237, \"end\": 413.257, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"洽\"}, {\"word\": 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808.128, \"end\": 808.348, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 808.348, \"end\": 808.508, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 808.508, \"end\": 809.449, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 809.449, \"end\": 809.75, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 809.75, \"end\": 810.13, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 810.13, \"end\": 810.251, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 810.251, \"end\": 810.591, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 810.591, \"end\": 811.132, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"假\", \"start\": 811.132, \"end\": 811.312, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 811.312, \"end\": 811.432, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 811.432, \"end\": 811.753, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 811.753, \"end\": 812.354, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 812.354, \"end\": 812.574, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 812.574, \"end\": 812.834, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 812.834, \"end\": 813.075, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 813.075, \"end\": 813.175, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 813.175, \"end\": 813.495, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 813.495, \"end\": 813.575, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 813.575, \"end\": 813.696, \"score\": 0.723}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 813.696, \"end\": 813.896, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 813.896, \"end\": 813.916, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 813.916, \"end\": 813.996, 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\"end\": 862.891, \"score\": 0.587}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 862.891, \"end\": 863.051, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"尊\", \"start\": 863.051, \"end\": 863.231, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 863.231, \"end\": 863.471, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 863.471, \"end\": 863.651, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 863.651, \"end\": 863.771, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 863.771, \"end\": 864.351, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 864.351, \"end\": 864.451, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 864.451, \"end\": 864.491, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 864.491, \"end\": 864.691, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 864.691, \"end\": 864.811, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 864.811, \"end\": 865.032, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 865.032, \"end\": 865.192, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": 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\"芯\", \"start\": 932.04, \"end\": 932.06, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,593 --> 00:00:02,243\n謝謝主席那我們有請部長請邱部長\n\n2\n00:00:11,963 --> 00:00:35,474\n徐委員好部長好我們知道現在國軍正在如火如荼進行這個漢光演習的準備那在第二階段的電腦輔助指揮所演習時間是在4月19號到26號的八天起夜那我想要先請問部長我們在全國軍旅級以上需要參演的單位他們在19到26號的假單我們都簽合過了嗎\n\n3\n00:00:47,761 --> 00:01:05,476\n這次我們只針對旅籍以上的指揮所來實施一個演練那其他的營籍以下的他都是維持正常的一個運作包含他的休假跟外産事務都不管這那我們來看一下因為就是有蠻多人他們來提出我們看一下那張圖片好不好\n\n4\n00:01:07,017 --> 00:01:28,924\n這個是他們在內部裡面在談到就是說所謂的請假的部分那入勤部的參謀長昨天晚上跟我們回報要禮拜四18號下班前才要去批示這個假單因為現在演習時間已經快到了那你可以看他這個對話內容是問說有人要請假嘛問說是不是19到26號他說對\n\n5\n00:01:30,945 --> 00:01:59,126\n然後對方回答他說NO他就說可是如果我們是有合理事故加證明的情況之下對方回答他說我們沒有然後還是呢因為你們連價單都不給送那對方回答說對我想要請問一下像這樣子的對話他的情況是什麼那我們現在的這一些如果我們的軍人弟兄如果他真的有要事要請假的話那我們現在的狀態是連價單都不能去遞送的情形嗎\n\n6\n00:02:00,509 --> 00:02:24,972\n委員好我是陸行部參謀長向您說明一下那因為這一次的話是8天7夜那我們也非常清楚說跟往常的一個這個休假方式有改變因為我預望的話是5天4夜那這一次的話從這個禮拜五到這個下禮拜五從未審慎評估之後根本同仁講清楚說明白那基本上他們有相關的事故的部分完成相關的佐證資料都已經奉核可以批示沒有問題\n\n7\n00:02:32,935 --> 00:02:52,203\n我希望你們可以去調查一下你們在陸軍司令部裡面的情況因為或許你的認知是如此但是我們在執行下去的時候我們可以看到很清楚這個裡面的對話相關人我們都查核過確認有此事只是因為今天要保護人家所以我們孤影其名但是我是確認過情況的\n\n8\n00:02:53,504 --> 00:03:17,860\n那所以既然你也說到了如果今天我們的國軍弟兄即便在這個情況下他要請假他有合理的理由你們不應該連假單都不給送假單送了之後你要合或不合他的事他的所謂的合理事故合不合理你們可以做評斷但是我覺得不應該對我們的國軍弟兄連假單送出去都不行這個部分可不可以回去研究一下\n\n9\n00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:18,640\n我們想要問一下邱部長\n\n10\n00:03:36,057 --> 00:03:38,758\n我們這個目前去年9月的時候您談過潛艦國造的進度我們都是按照節點在管制的那請問當時您談這件事情的理由是什麼為什麼當時呢你談到說我們在後續的潛艦預算編列\n\n11\n00:03:52,463 --> 00:03:52,583\n：徐巧芯\n\n12\n00:04:07,113 --> 00:04:22,908\n每個工作推動有它的一個階段性,這個就叫節點管制。重要節點我們把它管控了以後,有什麼好處呢?它可能準備不夠周圍的,我們已經看出來,你要準備不夠周圍,這個節點打不到,我們要督促它。\n\n13\n00:04:23,989 --> 00:04:51,181\n至於這個後續建的一個建造我當初也有講過沒有錯一定要經過我們測評以後第一艘人艦沒有問題才能夠投注於後面但目前測評正在做正在做那我們就講也得要預化如果做成的後面就要建案但是這個不是一觸可乘的總目標不會變國建國造國機國造但是我們節點管控是有必要的\n\n14\n00:04:51,981 --> 00:05:16,307\n我是非常同意剛剛邱部長您講到的節點管制的部分因為我們大家對於國艦國造都有期待我們也希望一艘一艘的能夠依次依序能夠做好辦好所以我也覺得目前當時沒有去編列後續的預算是因為我們前面的測試還沒有完成這樣子的一個處理方式跟措施是正確的\n\n15\n00:05:16,887 --> 00:05:24,057\n所以我想要問一下在接下來的這個海昆號我們有預計什麼時候要去做HAT跟SAT的測試了嗎?我們就針對可以說的部分說就好了\n\n16\n00:05:28,765 --> 00:05:57,104\n報告委員現在海關號目前正在執行HAT測試那HAT測試要全部完成之後我們接續才會執行出海試測所以說現在並沒有一個很明確的時間表好那沒有很明確的時間表的情況之下我們又配合剛剛談到的整個節點管制那後續所謂編列第二艘這個國艦國造的部分那會不會跟著這個騎乘那有所往後延期的情況請教部長\n\n17\n00:05:58,865 --> 00:06:01,708\n請問一下我們在SAT測試完成之前會去編列第二艘的潛艦預算嗎?\n\n18\n00:06:24,954 --> 00:06:48,399\n報告委員我們國軍的建軍主要是計劃等預算那如果我們等到第一條船交艦之後才開始準備這個計劃那我們可能要花相當的時間那我請問一下那我們在第一艘的SAT測試做完之前會編列第三艘的潛艦計劃嗎的預算嗎我們不要講第二艘第三艘要編嗎\n\n19\n00:06:51,417 --> 00:07:11,221\n其實我們現在正在洽談中因為預算到底要多少那些報紙上面寫的很多的數字都不一樣不管是委員從哪邊拿到的資料都不一樣那代表這個計劃預算兵的部分是相當複雜的我們談的是一個那我多講30秒來請說那我們剛剛在機密會議裡面已經說過影響到裝備價款的部分有很多因素\n\n20\n00:07:19,683 --> 00:07:45,462\n這個部分我還沒有問啦所以這個部分這個我沒有要你講機密的部分我們就是按照因為我現在問的是一個邏輯如果我們當談的是所謂的節點管制它必要性我們也同意部長的這個說法那大家也覺得你今天有做完海上測試之後確認沒問題你要開始啟動下一艘船艦那我們也覺得這樣依序依次的做法是合理的我們都來支持\n\n21\n00:07:46,142 --> 00:08:03,584\n如果您剛談到的是說怕第一艘完成之後才編第二艘中間會有一個空窗期那可是怎麼會又編到第三艘去呢就是說你第一艘海上測試完之後到了第二艘這個中間有個空窗期所以你先編一些業務的費用這個我們也能夠理解\n\n22\n00:08:04,085 --> 00:08:27,762\n但是如果一次的把第二艘不要講第三艘了直接編到第八艘直接把第二艘編到第八艘全部兩千多億以上一次編進去這個有符合我們剛剛所說的包含節點管制的邏輯嗎?在邏輯上面來說是不是有一些相違背的地方呢?部長我跟委員報告這剛才前面有委員給我們指導\n\n23\n00:08:28,964 --> 00:08:42,285\n這預算編列都還沒有定逐年編和專案編這也在研擬當中對我們問的是這個邏輯上面您覺得怎麼樣做比較正確邏輯就台灣人講的很清楚計劃等預算我計劃都出來了\n\n24\n00:08:43,388 --> 00:09:04,071\n對,我哪怕講到最後編滿那個計畫都出來了,但哪一天開始這個第一日,那就要看我們那個前面進展的部分了。計畫出來了,那它配著預算要通過嗎?這是兩件不同的事。我們並不反對說要把整個計畫都準備好,但是預算要編列然後先通過嗎?這個是問題啊。\n\n25\n00:09:05,472 --> 00:09:12,793\n所以這個方向上的邏輯今天講的比較清楚了那再來我想要問一下陳建仁院長前幾天突然要求軍中要推行轉型正義的教育請問一下邱部長您覺得目前在國軍裡面哪一個部分要轉型正義了\n\n26\n00:09:32,301 --> 00:10:00,704\n我還沒有了解軍中哪邊叫轉型正義他叫你們一個月以內要籌設軍中轉型正義的外部專家諮詢小組要朝向軍中都有在跟轉型正義的工作人員有相關部隊的會或軍中的會他們都找我們去開我們在開當中我們也會表達我們也會表達當然我們軍中有很多做法\n\n27\n00:10:01,505 --> 00:10:01,665\n所以我們現在軍中\n\n28\n00:10:17,210 --> 00:10:17,871\n那是哪一個部分呢?\n\n29\n00:10:38,717 --> 00:10:56,239\n那假如說他把這個這個項目講得很明確的話我們就針對這個項目明確的好那我請問一下如果因為陳院長他也沒有講得很清楚如果是要求軍中要去除所有的蔣介石的同項部長這樣子的轉型正義您同意嗎\n\n30\n00:10:56,900 --> 00:11:06,888\n我已經講過了這個上面有討論過當初的規範很清楚在公開場合他要怎麼處理我沒有意見但銀區是我們的財產銀區裡面所有東西都是國軍的財產我財產我只要沒有違法\n\n31\n00:11:15,214 --> 00:11:35,695\n那為什麼要去辯呢?所以我一貫的堅持啊。對,多年前講說要我們來做的話,光這一點我有我的堅持。對,但我絕對要跟你講得很清楚。不要認為講我們這個行政團隊在那邊攪局。講這個界定不清楚。第一個,你想想,軍中是個開放團體,那我就問各位能不能接受。\n\n32\n00:11:36,917 --> 00:11:37,538\n徐巧芯\n\n33\n00:11:50,345 --> 00:11:51,226\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n34\n00:12:09,156 --> 00:12:23,286\n但是您的態度我們都很認同可是我們整個同仁在這個運作的過程當中似乎是感不太上的所以已經過了好一陣子了211的自傷案你們也都提出在這裡說要\n\n35\n00:12:24,827 --> 00:12:38,264\n有檢討的報告要來做可是我們3月22號發函縣指部跟4月12號發函國防部都沒有回覆正式的公文請問可不可以簡短的說明一下當時承諾的211案\n\n36\n00:12:42,332 --> 00:13:05,704\n我跟委員報告,任何一件不幸的事情發生,都大家遺憾。但我們就一去追的話,一定從內部外部通通來考量。我記得上回委員我講一句話,有一些人他的個性比較,抗壓力不一樣的。但後來委員就引用這句話,好像在講太殘酷了吧。我沒有要推這個責任。事情一發生,\n\n37\n00:13:07,024 --> 00:13:21,138\n內部要檢討管理方面有問題打邊方面工作分配是否得到有管教不當的問題外部他的感情方面家庭方面債務方面這我們就要納入檢討出來以後我們不能公佈\n\n38\n00:13:22,279 --> 00:13:34,056\n我們不能公布,因為公布以後被我們的獨斷了,會造成其他後遺症。既然檢調介入了,檢調的報告依那個為主。假如委員要這個報告,我們拿不出來,所以檢調還沒給我們。要給我們,我們檢調了。\n\n39\n00:13:37,088 --> 00:13:40,790\n我舉一個例子來說當初你們在質詢的時候你們明明沒有去看班表卻直接講說已經確認過了他就是戰二邪六這個不需要檢討嗎?這個部分的檢討報告跟檢察官有什麼關係?\n\n40\n00:14:01,322 --> 00:14:25,432\n那為什麼什麼都沒有呢?我們詢問了老半天也都沒有呢?所以我講的是整個211的事件是非常多嘛因為我時間不夠所以不用給我答覆但是你們應該要提供書面的資料我是說因為我時間不夠我要尊重主席我時間夠的話你們可以講啊那個主席如果同意的話可以讓他們講或者是尊重主席的時間好不好那你們做答覆\n\n41\n00:14:26,454 --> 00:14:28,435\n所以你們行政調查報告的部分也不能提供給委員會?\n\n42\n00:14:46,238 --> 00:15:09,817\n因為我們都有提供給檢調部份就沒辦法行政調查的部份也都不能提供當初就是怕會有失公允所以我們在行政調查部份那也一併有來做啊給檢查官那最後我講一下這就是我們現在的一個怪象我告訴大家喔凱凱案在未還委員會他也是檢調在調查的案子衛福部有沒有提供\n\n43\n00:15:11,897 --> 00:15:30,385\n簡討報告給所有委員參考是有的所以這裡的很多包括我們的主席都是非常資深的立法委員了你剛剛的說法我是完全不能認同的不然就是你說只有在國防委員會有這個狀況其他的委員會裡面行政調查跟檢調的調查它是分開的\n\n44\n00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:32,060\n徐巧芯\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n593\t2243\t謝謝主席 那我們有請部長請邱部長\n11963\t35474\t徐委員好部長好我們知道現在國軍正在如火如荼進行這個漢光演習的準備那在第二階段的電腦輔助指揮所演習時間是在4月19號到26號的八天起夜那我想要先請問部長我們在全國軍旅級以上需要參演的單位他們在19到26號的假單我們都簽合過了嗎\n47761\t65476\t這次我們只針對旅籍以上的指揮所來實施一個演練那其他的營籍以下的他都是維持正常的一個運作包含他的休假跟外産事務都不管這那我們來看一下因為就是有蠻多人他們來提出我們看一下那張圖片好不好\n67017\t88924\t這個是他們在內部裡面在談到就是說所謂的請假的部分那入勤部的參謀長昨天晚上跟我們回報要禮拜四18號下班前才要去批示這個假單因為現在演習時間已經快到了那你可以看他這個對話內容是問說有人要請假嘛問說是不是19到26號他說對\n90945\t119126\t然後對方回答他說NO他就說可是如果我們是有合理事故加證明的情況之下對方回答他說我們沒有然後還是呢因為你們連價單都不給送那對方回答說對我想要請問一下像這樣子的對話他的情況是什麼那我們現在的這一些如果我們的軍人弟兄如果他真的有要事要請假的話那我們現在的狀態是連價單都不能去遞送的情形嗎\n120509\t144972\t委員好 我是陸行部參謀長向您說明一下那因為這一次的話是8天7夜那我們也非常清楚說跟往常的一個這個休假方式有改變因為我預望的話是5天4夜那這一次的話從這個禮拜五到這個下禮拜五從未審慎評估之後根本同仁講清楚說明白那基本上他們有相關的事故的部分完成相關的佐證資料都已經奉核可以批示沒有問題\n152935\t172203\t我希望你們可以去調查一下你們在陸軍司令部裡面的情況因為或許你的認知是如此但是我們在執行下去的時候我們可以看到很清楚這個裡面的對話相關人我們都查核過確認有此事只是因為今天要保護人家所以我們孤影其名但是我是確認過情況的\n173504\t197860\t那所以既然你也說到了如果今天我們的國軍弟兄即便在這個情況下他要請假他有合理的理由你們不應該連假單都不給送假單送了之後你要合或不合他的事他的所謂的合理事故合不合理你們可以做評斷但是我覺得不應該對我們的國軍弟兄連假單送出去都不行這個部分可不可以回去研究一下\n198200\t198640\t我們想要問一下邱部長\n216057\t218758\t我們這個目前去年9月的時候您談過潛艦國造的進度我們都是按照節點在管制的那請問當時您談這件事情的理由是什麼為什麼當時呢你談到說我們在後續的潛艦預算編列\n232463\t232583\t：徐巧芯\n247113\t262908\t每個工作推動有它的一個階段性,這個就叫節點管制。重要節點我們把它管控了以後,有什麼好處呢?它可能準備不夠周圍的,我們已經看出來,你要準備不夠周圍,這個節點打不到,我們要督促它。\n263989\t291181\t至於這個後續建的一個建造我當初也有講過沒有錯一定要經過我們測評以後第一艘人艦沒有問題才能夠投注於後面但目前測評正在做正在做那我們就講也得要預化如果做成的後面就要建案但是這個不是一觸可乘的總目標不會變國建國造國機國造但是我們節點管控是有必要的\n291981\t316307\t我是非常同意剛剛邱部長您講到的節點管制的部分因為我們大家對於國艦國造都有期待我們也希望一艘一艘的能夠依次依序能夠做好辦好所以我也覺得目前當時沒有去編列後續的預算是因為我們前面的測試還沒有完成這樣子的一個處理方式跟措施是正確的\n316887\t324057\t所以我想要問一下在接下來的這個海昆號我們有預計什麼時候要去做HAT跟SAT的測試了嗎?我們就針對可以說的部分說就好了\n328765\t357104\t報告委員現在海關號目前正在執行HAT測試那HAT測試要全部完成之後我們接續才會執行出海試測所以說現在並沒有一個很明確的時間表好那沒有很明確的時間表的情況之下我們又配合剛剛談到的整個節點管制那後續所謂編列第二艘這個國艦國造的部分那會不會跟著這個騎乘那有所往後延期的情況請教部長\n358865\t361708\t請問一下我們在SAT測試完成之前會去編列第二艘的潛艦預算嗎?\n384954\t408399\t報告委員我們國軍的建軍主要是計劃等預算那如果我們等到第一條船交艦之後才開始準備這個計劃那我們可能要花相當的時間那我請問一下那我們在第一艘的SAT測試做完之前會編列第三艘的潛艦計劃嗎的預算嗎我們不要講第二艘第三艘要編嗎\n411417\t431221\t其實我們現在正在洽談中因為預算到底要多少那些報紙上面寫的很多的數字都不一樣不管是委員從哪邊拿到的資料都不一樣那代表這個計劃預算兵的部分是相當複雜的我們談的是一個那我多講30秒來請說那我們剛剛在機密會議裡面已經說過影響到裝備價款的部分有很多因素\n439683\t465462\t這個部分我還沒有問啦所以這個部分這個我沒有要你講機密的部分我們就是按照因為我現在問的是一個邏輯如果我們當談的是所謂的節點管制它必要性我們也同意部長的這個說法那大家也覺得你今天有做完海上測試之後確認沒問題你要開始啟動下一艘船艦那我們也覺得這樣依序依次的做法是合理的我們都來支持\n466142\t483584\t如果您剛談到的是說怕第一艘完成之後才編第二艘中間會有一個空窗期那可是怎麼會又編到第三艘去呢就是說你第一艘海上測試完之後到了第二艘這個中間有個空窗期所以你先編一些業務的費用這個我們也能夠理解\n484085\t507762\t但是如果一次的把第二艘不要講第三艘了直接編到第八艘直接把第二艘編到第八艘全部兩千多億以上一次編進去這個有符合我們剛剛所說的包含節點管制的邏輯嗎?在邏輯上面來說是不是有一些相違背的地方呢?部長我跟委員報告這剛才前面有委員給我們指導\n508964\t522285\t這預算編列都還沒有定逐年編和專案編這也在研擬當中對我們問的是這個邏輯上面您覺得怎麼樣做比較正確邏輯就台灣人講的很清楚計劃等預算我計劃都出來了\n523388\t544071\t對,我哪怕講到最後編滿那個計畫都出來了,但哪一天開始這個第一日,那就要看我們那個前面進展的部分了。計畫出來了,那它配著預算要通過嗎?這是兩件不同的事。我們並不反對說要把整個計畫都準備好,但是預算要編列然後先通過嗎?這個是問題啊。\n545472\t552793\t所以這個方向上的邏輯今天講的比較清楚了那再來我想要問一下陳建仁院長前幾天突然要求軍中要推行轉型正義的教育請問一下邱部長您覺得目前在國軍裡面哪一個部分要轉型正義了\n572301\t600704\t我還沒有了解軍中哪邊叫轉型正義他叫你們一個月以內要籌設軍中轉型正義的外部專家諮詢小組要朝向軍中都有在跟轉型正義的工作人員有相關部隊的會或軍中的會他們都找我們去開我們在開當中我們也會表達我們也會表達當然我們軍中有很多做法\n601505\t601665\t所以我們現在軍中\n617210\t617871\t那是哪一個部分呢?\n638717\t656239\t那假如說他把這個這個項目講得很明確的話我們就針對這個項目明確的好那我請問一下如果因為陳院長他也沒有講得很清楚如果是要求軍中要去除所有的蔣介石的同項部長這樣子的轉型正義您同意嗎\n656900\t666888\t我已經講過了 這個上面有討論過當初的規範很清楚在公開場合他要怎麼處理我沒有意見但銀區是我們的財產銀區裡面所有東西都是國軍的財產我財產我只要沒有違法\n675214\t695695\t那為什麼要去辯呢?所以我一貫的堅持啊。對,多年前講說要我們來做的話,光這一點我有我的堅持。對,但我絕對要跟你講得很清楚。不要認為講我們這個行政團隊在那邊攪局。講這個界定不清楚。第一個,你想想,軍中是個開放團體,那我就問各位能不能接受。\n696917\t697538\t徐巧芯\n710345\t711226\t徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n729156\t743286\t但是您的態度我們都很認同可是我們整個同仁在這個運作的過程當中似乎是感不太上的所以已經過了好一陣子了211的自傷案你們也都提出在這裡說要\n744827\t758264\t有檢討的報告要來做可是我們3月22號發函縣指部跟4月12號發函國防部都沒有回覆正式的公文請問可不可以簡短的說明一下當時承諾的211案\n762332\t785704\t我跟委員報告,任何一件不幸的事情發生,都大家遺憾。但我們就一去追的話,一定從內部外部通通來考量。我記得上回委員我講一句話,有一些人他的個性比較,抗壓力不一樣的。但後來委員就引用這句話,好像在講太殘酷了吧。我沒有要推這個責任。事情一發生,\n787024\t801138\t內部要檢討管理方面有問題打邊方面工作分配是否得到有管教不當的問題外部他的感情方面家庭方面債務方面這我們就要納入檢討出來以後我們不能公佈\n802279\t814056\t我們不能公布,因為公布以後被我們的獨斷了,會造成其他後遺症。既然檢調介入了,檢調的報告依那個為主。假如委員要這個報告,我們拿不出來,所以檢調還沒給我們。要給我們,我們檢調了。\n817088\t820790\t我舉一個例子來說當初你們在質詢的時候你們明明沒有去看班表卻直接講說已經確認過了他就是戰二邪六這個不需要檢討嗎?這個部分的檢討報告跟檢察官有什麼關係?\n841322\t865432\t那為什麼什麼都沒有呢?我們詢問了老半天也都沒有呢?所以我講的是整個211的事件是非常多嘛因為我時間不夠所以不用給我答覆但是你們應該要提供書面的資料我是說因為我時間不夠我要尊重主席我時間夠的話你們可以講啊那個主席如果同意的話可以讓他們講或者是尊重主席的時間好不好那你們做答覆\n866454\t868435\t所以你們行政調查報告的部分也不能提供給委員會?\n886238\t909817\t因為我們都有提供給檢調部份就沒辦法行政調查的部份也都不能提供當初就是怕會有失公允所以我們在行政調查部份那也一併有來做啊給檢查官那最後我講一下這就是我們現在的一個怪象我告訴大家喔凱凱案在未還委員會他也是檢調在調查的案子衛福部有沒有提供\n911897\t930385\t簡討報告給所有委員參考是有的所以這裡的很多包括我們的主席都是非常資深的立法委員了你剛剛的說法我是完全不能認同的不然就是你說只有在國防委員會有這個狀況其他的委員會裡面行政調查跟檢調的調查它是分開的\n931920\t932060\t徐巧芯\n","txt":"謝謝主席 那我們有請部長請邱部長\n徐委員好部長好我們知道現在國軍正在如火如荼進行這個漢光演習的準備那在第二階段的電腦輔助指揮所演習時間是在4月19號到26號的八天起夜那我想要先請問部長我們在全國軍旅級以上需要參演的單位他們在19到26號的假單我們都簽合過了嗎\n這次我們只針對旅籍以上的指揮所來實施一個演練那其他的營籍以下的他都是維持正常的一個運作包含他的休假跟外産事務都不管這那我們來看一下因為就是有蠻多人他們來提出我們看一下那張圖片好不好\n這個是他們在內部裡面在談到就是說所謂的請假的部分那入勤部的參謀長昨天晚上跟我們回報要禮拜四18號下班前才要去批示這個假單因為現在演習時間已經快到了那你可以看他這個對話內容是問說有人要請假嘛問說是不是19到26號他說對\n然後對方回答他說NO他就說可是如果我們是有合理事故加證明的情況之下對方回答他說我們沒有然後還是呢因為你們連價單都不給送那對方回答說對我想要請問一下像這樣子的對話他的情況是什麼那我們現在的這一些如果我們的軍人弟兄如果他真的有要事要請假的話那我們現在的狀態是連價單都不能去遞送的情形嗎\n委員好 我是陸行部參謀長向您說明一下那因為這一次的話是8天7夜那我們也非常清楚說跟往常的一個這個休假方式有改變因為我預望的話是5天4夜那這一次的話從這個禮拜五到這個下禮拜五從未審慎評估之後根本同仁講清楚說明白那基本上他們有相關的事故的部分完成相關的佐證資料都已經奉核可以批示沒有問題\n我希望你們可以去調查一下你們在陸軍司令部裡面的情況因為或許你的認知是如此但是我們在執行下去的時候我們可以看到很清楚這個裡面的對話相關人我們都查核過確認有此事只是因為今天要保護人家所以我們孤影其名但是我是確認過情況的\n那所以既然你也說到了如果今天我們的國軍弟兄即便在這個情況下他要請假他有合理的理由你們不應該連假單都不給送假單送了之後你要合或不合他的事他的所謂的合理事故合不合理你們可以做評斷但是我覺得不應該對我們的國軍弟兄連假單送出去都不行這個部分可不可以回去研究一下\n我們想要問一下邱部長\n我們這個目前去年9月的時候您談過潛艦國造的進度我們都是按照節點在管制的那請問當時您談這件事情的理由是什麼為什麼當時呢你談到說我們在後續的潛艦預算編列\n：徐巧芯\n每個工作推動有它的一個階段性,這個就叫節點管制。重要節點我們把它管控了以後,有什麼好處呢?它可能準備不夠周圍的,我們已經看出來,你要準備不夠周圍,這個節點打不到,我們要督促它。\n至於這個後續建的一個建造我當初也有講過沒有錯一定要經過我們測評以後第一艘人艦沒有問題才能夠投注於後面但目前測評正在做正在做那我們就講也得要預化如果做成的後面就要建案但是這個不是一觸可乘的總目標不會變國建國造國機國造但是我們節點管控是有必要的\n我是非常同意剛剛邱部長您講到的節點管制的部分因為我們大家對於國艦國造都有期待我們也希望一艘一艘的能夠依次依序能夠做好辦好所以我也覺得目前當時沒有去編列後續的預算是因為我們前面的測試還沒有完成這樣子的一個處理方式跟措施是正確的\n所以我想要問一下在接下來的這個海昆號我們有預計什麼時候要去做HAT跟SAT的測試了嗎?我們就針對可以說的部分說就好了\n報告委員現在海關號目前正在執行HAT測試那HAT測試要全部完成之後我們接續才會執行出海試測所以說現在並沒有一個很明確的時間表好那沒有很明確的時間表的情況之下我們又配合剛剛談到的整個節點管制那後續所謂編列第二艘這個國艦國造的部分那會不會跟著這個騎乘那有所往後延期的情況請教部長\n請問一下我們在SAT測試完成之前會去編列第二艘的潛艦預算嗎?\n報告委員我們國軍的建軍主要是計劃等預算那如果我們等到第一條船交艦之後才開始準備這個計劃那我們可能要花相當的時間那我請問一下那我們在第一艘的SAT測試做完之前會編列第三艘的潛艦計劃嗎的預算嗎我們不要講第二艘第三艘要編嗎\n其實我們現在正在洽談中因為預算到底要多少那些報紙上面寫的很多的數字都不一樣不管是委員從哪邊拿到的資料都不一樣那代表這個計劃預算兵的部分是相當複雜的我們談的是一個那我多講30秒來請說那我們剛剛在機密會議裡面已經說過影響到裝備價款的部分有很多因素\n這個部分我還沒有問啦所以這個部分這個我沒有要你講機密的部分我們就是按照因為我現在問的是一個邏輯如果我們當談的是所謂的節點管制它必要性我們也同意部長的這個說法那大家也覺得你今天有做完海上測試之後確認沒問題你要開始啟動下一艘船艦那我們也覺得這樣依序依次的做法是合理的我們都來支持\n如果您剛談到的是說怕第一艘完成之後才編第二艘中間會有一個空窗期那可是怎麼會又編到第三艘去呢就是說你第一艘海上測試完之後到了第二艘這個中間有個空窗期所以你先編一些業務的費用這個我們也能夠理解\n但是如果一次的把第二艘不要講第三艘了直接編到第八艘直接把第二艘編到第八艘全部兩千多億以上一次編進去這個有符合我們剛剛所說的包含節點管制的邏輯嗎?在邏輯上面來說是不是有一些相違背的地方呢?部長我跟委員報告這剛才前面有委員給我們指導\n這預算編列都還沒有定逐年編和專案編這也在研擬當中對我們問的是這個邏輯上面您覺得怎麼樣做比較正確邏輯就台灣人講的很清楚計劃等預算我計劃都出來了\n對,我哪怕講到最後編滿那個計畫都出來了,但哪一天開始這個第一日,那就要看我們那個前面進展的部分了。計畫出來了,那它配著預算要通過嗎?這是兩件不同的事。我們並不反對說要把整個計畫都準備好,但是預算要編列然後先通過嗎?這個是問題啊。\n所以這個方向上的邏輯今天講的比較清楚了那再來我想要問一下陳建仁院長前幾天突然要求軍中要推行轉型正義的教育請問一下邱部長您覺得目前在國軍裡面哪一個部分要轉型正義了\n我還沒有了解軍中哪邊叫轉型正義他叫你們一個月以內要籌設軍中轉型正義的外部專家諮詢小組要朝向軍中都有在跟轉型正義的工作人員有相關部隊的會或軍中的會他們都找我們去開我們在開當中我們也會表達我們也會表達當然我們軍中有很多做法\n所以我們現在軍中\n那是哪一個部分呢?\n那假如說他把這個這個項目講得很明確的話我們就針對這個項目明確的好那我請問一下如果因為陳院長他也沒有講得很清楚如果是要求軍中要去除所有的蔣介石的同項部長這樣子的轉型正義您同意嗎\n我已經講過了 這個上面有討論過當初的規範很清楚在公開場合他要怎麼處理我沒有意見但銀區是我們的財產銀區裡面所有東西都是國軍的財產我財產我只要沒有違法\n那為什麼要去辯呢?所以我一貫的堅持啊。對,多年前講說要我們來做的話,光這一點我有我的堅持。對,但我絕對要跟你講得很清楚。不要認為講我們這個行政團隊在那邊攪局。講這個界定不清楚。第一個,你想想,軍中是個開放團體,那我就問各位能不能接受。\n徐巧芯\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n但是您的態度我們都很認同可是我們整個同仁在這個運作的過程當中似乎是感不太上的所以已經過了好一陣子了211的自傷案你們也都提出在這裡說要\n有檢討的報告要來做可是我們3月22號發函縣指部跟4月12號發函國防部都沒有回覆正式的公文請問可不可以簡短的說明一下當時承諾的211案\n我跟委員報告,任何一件不幸的事情發生,都大家遺憾。但我們就一去追的話,一定從內部外部通通來考量。我記得上回委員我講一句話,有一些人他的個性比較,抗壓力不一樣的。但後來委員就引用這句話,好像在講太殘酷了吧。我沒有要推這個責任。事情一發生,\n內部要檢討管理方面有問題打邊方面工作分配是否得到有管教不當的問題外部他的感情方面家庭方面債務方面這我們就要納入檢討出來以後我們不能公佈\n我們不能公布,因為公布以後被我們的獨斷了,會造成其他後遺症。既然檢調介入了,檢調的報告依那個為主。假如委員要這個報告,我們拿不出來,所以檢調還沒給我們。要給我們,我們檢調了。\n我舉一個例子來說當初你們在質詢的時候你們明明沒有去看班表卻直接講說已經確認過了他就是戰二邪六這個不需要檢討嗎?這個部分的檢討報告跟檢察官有什麼關係?\n那為什麼什麼都沒有呢?我們詢問了老半天也都沒有呢?所以我講的是整個211的事件是非常多嘛因為我時間不夠所以不用給我答覆但是你們應該要提供書面的資料我是說因為我時間不夠我要尊重主席我時間夠的話你們可以講啊那個主席如果同意的話可以讓他們講或者是尊重主席的時間好不好那你們做答覆\n所以你們行政調查報告的部分也不能提供給委員會?\n因為我們都有提供給檢調部份就沒辦法行政調查的部份也都不能提供當初就是怕會有失公允所以我們在行政調查部份那也一併有來做啊給檢查官那最後我講一下這就是我們現在的一個怪象我告訴大家喔凱凱案在未還委員會他也是檢調在調查的案子衛福部有沒有提供\n簡討報告給所有委員參考是有的所以這裡的很多包括我們的主席都是非常資深的立法委員了你剛剛的說法我是完全不能認同的不然就是你說只有在國防委員會有這個狀況其他的委員會裡面行政調查跟檢調的調查它是分開的\n徐巧芯\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.593 --> 00:02.243\n謝謝主席那我們有請部長請邱部長\n\n00:11.963 --> 00:35.474\n徐委員好部長好我們知道現在國軍正在如火如荼進行這個漢光演習的準備那在第二階段的電腦輔助指揮所演習時間是在4月19號到26號的八天起夜那我想要先請問部長我們在全國軍旅級以上需要參演的單位他們在19到26號的假單我們都簽合過了嗎\n\n00:47.761 --> 01:05.476\n這次我們只針對旅籍以上的指揮所來實施一個演練那其他的營籍以下的他都是維持正常的一個運作包含他的休假跟外産事務都不管這那我們來看一下因為就是有蠻多人他們來提出我們看一下那張圖片好不好\n\n01:07.017 --> 01:28.924\n這個是他們在內部裡面在談到就是說所謂的請假的部分那入勤部的參謀長昨天晚上跟我們回報要禮拜四18號下班前才要去批示這個假單因為現在演習時間已經快到了那你可以看他這個對話內容是問說有人要請假嘛問說是不是19到26號他說對\n\n01:30.945 --> 01:59.126\n然後對方回答他說NO他就說可是如果我們是有合理事故加證明的情況之下對方回答他說我們沒有然後還是呢因為你們連價單都不給送那對方回答說對我想要請問一下像這樣子的對話他的情況是什麼那我們現在的這一些如果我們的軍人弟兄如果他真的有要事要請假的話那我們現在的狀態是連價單都不能去遞送的情形嗎\n\n02:00.509 --> 02:24.972\n委員好我是陸行部參謀長向您說明一下那因為這一次的話是8天7夜那我們也非常清楚說跟往常的一個這個休假方式有改變因為我預望的話是5天4夜那這一次的話從這個禮拜五到這個下禮拜五從未審慎評估之後根本同仁講清楚說明白那基本上他們有相關的事故的部分完成相關的佐證資料都已經奉核可以批示沒有問題\n\n02:32.935 --> 02:52.203\n我希望你們可以去調查一下你們在陸軍司令部裡面的情況因為或許你的認知是如此但是我們在執行下去的時候我們可以看到很清楚這個裡面的對話相關人我們都查核過確認有此事只是因為今天要保護人家所以我們孤影其名但是我是確認過情況的\n\n02:53.504 --> 03:17.860\n那所以既然你也說到了如果今天我們的國軍弟兄即便在這個情況下他要請假他有合理的理由你們不應該連假單都不給送假單送了之後你要合或不合他的事他的所謂的合理事故合不合理你們可以做評斷但是我覺得不應該對我們的國軍弟兄連假單送出去都不行這個部分可不可以回去研究一下\n\n03:18.200 --> 03:18.640\n我們想要問一下邱部長\n\n03:36.057 --> 03:38.758\n我們這個目前去年9月的時候您談過潛艦國造的進度我們都是按照節點在管制的那請問當時您談這件事情的理由是什麼為什麼當時呢你談到說我們在後續的潛艦預算編列\n\n03:52.463 --> 03:52.583\n：徐巧芯\n\n04:07.113 --> 04:22.908\n每個工作推動有它的一個階段性,這個就叫節點管制。重要節點我們把它管控了以後,有什麼好處呢?它可能準備不夠周圍的,我們已經看出來,你要準備不夠周圍,這個節點打不到,我們要督促它。\n\n04:23.989 --> 04:51.181\n至於這個後續建的一個建造我當初也有講過沒有錯一定要經過我們測評以後第一艘人艦沒有問題才能夠投注於後面但目前測評正在做正在做那我們就講也得要預化如果做成的後面就要建案但是這個不是一觸可乘的總目標不會變國建國造國機國造但是我們節點管控是有必要的\n\n04:51.981 --> 05:16.307\n我是非常同意剛剛邱部長您講到的節點管制的部分因為我們大家對於國艦國造都有期待我們也希望一艘一艘的能夠依次依序能夠做好辦好所以我也覺得目前當時沒有去編列後續的預算是因為我們前面的測試還沒有完成這樣子的一個處理方式跟措施是正確的\n\n05:16.887 --> 05:24.057\n所以我想要問一下在接下來的這個海昆號我們有預計什麼時候要去做HAT跟SAT的測試了嗎?我們就針對可以說的部分說就好了\n\n05:28.765 --> 05:57.104\n報告委員現在海關號目前正在執行HAT測試那HAT測試要全部完成之後我們接續才會執行出海試測所以說現在並沒有一個很明確的時間表好那沒有很明確的時間表的情況之下我們又配合剛剛談到的整個節點管制那後續所謂編列第二艘這個國艦國造的部分那會不會跟著這個騎乘那有所往後延期的情況請教部長\n\n05:58.865 --> 06:01.708\n請問一下我們在SAT測試完成之前會去編列第二艘的潛艦預算嗎?\n\n06:24.954 --> 06:48.399\n報告委員我們國軍的建軍主要是計劃等預算那如果我們等到第一條船交艦之後才開始準備這個計劃那我們可能要花相當的時間那我請問一下那我們在第一艘的SAT測試做完之前會編列第三艘的潛艦計劃嗎的預算嗎我們不要講第二艘第三艘要編嗎\n\n06:51.417 --> 07:11.221\n其實我們現在正在洽談中因為預算到底要多少那些報紙上面寫的很多的數字都不一樣不管是委員從哪邊拿到的資料都不一樣那代表這個計劃預算兵的部分是相當複雜的我們談的是一個那我多講30秒來請說那我們剛剛在機密會議裡面已經說過影響到裝備價款的部分有很多因素\n\n07:19.683 --> 07:45.462\n這個部分我還沒有問啦所以這個部分這個我沒有要你講機密的部分我們就是按照因為我現在問的是一個邏輯如果我們當談的是所謂的節點管制它必要性我們也同意部長的這個說法那大家也覺得你今天有做完海上測試之後確認沒問題你要開始啟動下一艘船艦那我們也覺得這樣依序依次的做法是合理的我們都來支持\n\n07:46.142 --> 08:03.584\n如果您剛談到的是說怕第一艘完成之後才編第二艘中間會有一個空窗期那可是怎麼會又編到第三艘去呢就是說你第一艘海上測試完之後到了第二艘這個中間有個空窗期所以你先編一些業務的費用這個我們也能夠理解\n\n08:04.085 --> 08:27.762\n但是如果一次的把第二艘不要講第三艘了直接編到第八艘直接把第二艘編到第八艘全部兩千多億以上一次編進去這個有符合我們剛剛所說的包含節點管制的邏輯嗎?在邏輯上面來說是不是有一些相違背的地方呢?部長我跟委員報告這剛才前面有委員給我們指導\n\n08:28.964 --> 08:42.285\n這預算編列都還沒有定逐年編和專案編這也在研擬當中對我們問的是這個邏輯上面您覺得怎麼樣做比較正確邏輯就台灣人講的很清楚計劃等預算我計劃都出來了\n\n08:43.388 --> 09:04.071\n對,我哪怕講到最後編滿那個計畫都出來了,但哪一天開始這個第一日,那就要看我們那個前面進展的部分了。計畫出來了,那它配著預算要通過嗎?這是兩件不同的事。我們並不反對說要把整個計畫都準備好,但是預算要編列然後先通過嗎?這個是問題啊。\n\n09:05.472 --> 09:12.793\n所以這個方向上的邏輯今天講的比較清楚了那再來我想要問一下陳建仁院長前幾天突然要求軍中要推行轉型正義的教育請問一下邱部長您覺得目前在國軍裡面哪一個部分要轉型正義了\n\n09:32.301 --> 10:00.704\n我還沒有了解軍中哪邊叫轉型正義他叫你們一個月以內要籌設軍中轉型正義的外部專家諮詢小組要朝向軍中都有在跟轉型正義的工作人員有相關部隊的會或軍中的會他們都找我們去開我們在開當中我們也會表達我們也會表達當然我們軍中有很多做法\n\n10:01.505 --> 10:01.665\n所以我們現在軍中\n\n10:17.210 --> 10:17.871\n那是哪一個部分呢?\n\n10:38.717 --> 10:56.239\n那假如說他把這個這個項目講得很明確的話我們就針對這個項目明確的好那我請問一下如果因為陳院長他也沒有講得很清楚如果是要求軍中要去除所有的蔣介石的同項部長這樣子的轉型正義您同意嗎\n\n10:56.900 --> 11:06.888\n我已經講過了這個上面有討論過當初的規範很清楚在公開場合他要怎麼處理我沒有意見但銀區是我們的財產銀區裡面所有東西都是國軍的財產我財產我只要沒有違法\n\n11:15.214 --> 11:35.695\n那為什麼要去辯呢?所以我一貫的堅持啊。對,多年前講說要我們來做的話,光這一點我有我的堅持。對,但我絕對要跟你講得很清楚。不要認為講我們這個行政團隊在那邊攪局。講這個界定不清楚。第一個,你想想,軍中是個開放團體,那我就問各位能不能接受。\n\n11:36.917 --> 11:37.538\n徐巧芯\n\n11:50.345 --> 11:51.226\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n12:09.156 --> 12:23.286\n但是您的態度我們都很認同可是我們整個同仁在這個運作的過程當中似乎是感不太上的所以已經過了好一陣子了211的自傷案你們也都提出在這裡說要\n\n12:24.827 --> 12:38.264\n有檢討的報告要來做可是我們3月22號發函縣指部跟4月12號發函國防部都沒有回覆正式的公文請問可不可以簡短的說明一下當時承諾的211案\n\n12:42.332 --> 13:05.704\n我跟委員報告,任何一件不幸的事情發生,都大家遺憾。但我們就一去追的話,一定從內部外部通通來考量。我記得上回委員我講一句話,有一些人他的個性比較,抗壓力不一樣的。但後來委員就引用這句話,好像在講太殘酷了吧。我沒有要推這個責任。事情一發生,\n\n13:07.024 --> 13:21.138\n內部要檢討管理方面有問題打邊方面工作分配是否得到有管教不當的問題外部他的感情方面家庭方面債務方面這我們就要納入檢討出來以後我們不能公佈\n\n13:22.279 --> 13:34.056\n我們不能公布,因為公布以後被我們的獨斷了,會造成其他後遺症。既然檢調介入了,檢調的報告依那個為主。假如委員要這個報告,我們拿不出來,所以檢調還沒給我們。要給我們,我們檢調了。\n\n13:37.088 --> 13:40.790\n我舉一個例子來說當初你們在質詢的時候你們明明沒有去看班表卻直接講說已經確認過了他就是戰二邪六這個不需要檢討嗎?這個部分的檢討報告跟檢察官有什麼關係?\n\n14:01.322 --> 14:25.432\n那為什麼什麼都沒有呢?我們詢問了老半天也都沒有呢?所以我講的是整個211的事件是非常多嘛因為我時間不夠所以不用給我答覆但是你們應該要提供書面的資料我是說因為我時間不夠我要尊重主席我時間夠的話你們可以講啊那個主席如果同意的話可以讓他們講或者是尊重主席的時間好不好那你們做答覆\n\n14:26.454 --> 14:28.435\n所以你們行政調查報告的部分也不能提供給委員會?\n\n14:46.238 --> 15:09.817\n因為我們都有提供給檢調部份就沒辦法行政調查的部份也都不能提供當初就是怕會有失公允所以我們在行政調查部份那也一併有來做啊給檢查官那最後我講一下這就是我們現在的一個怪象我告訴大家喔凱凱案在未還委員會他也是檢調在調查的案子衛福部有沒有提供\n\n15:11.897 --> 15:30.385\n簡討報告給所有委員參考是有的所以這裡的很多包括我們的主席都是非常資深的立法委員了你剛剛的說法我是完全不能認同的不然就是你說只有在國防委員會有這個狀況其他的委員會裡面行政調查跟檢調的調查它是分開的\n\n15:31.920 --> 15:32.060\n徐巧芯\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.593,"end":2.243,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們有請部長請邱部長"},{"start":11.963,"end":35.474,"text":"徐委員好部長好我們知道現在國軍正在如火如荼進行這個漢光演習的準備那在第二階段的電腦輔助指揮所演習時間是在4月19號到26號的八天起夜那我想要先請問部長我們在全國軍旅級以上需要參演的單位他們在19到26號的假單我們都簽合過了嗎"},{"start":47.761,"end":65.476,"text":"這次我們只針對旅籍以上的指揮所來實施一個演練那其他的營籍以下的他都是維持正常的一個運作包含他的休假跟外産事務都不管這那我們來看一下因為就是有蠻多人他們來提出我們看一下那張圖片好不好"},{"start":67.017,"end":88.924,"text":"這個是他們在內部裡面在談到就是說所謂的請假的部分那入勤部的參謀長昨天晚上跟我們回報要禮拜四18號下班前才要去批示這個假單因為現在演習時間已經快到了那你可以看他這個對話內容是問說有人要請假嘛問說是不是19到26號他說對"},{"start":90.945,"end":119.126,"text":"然後對方回答他說NO他就說可是如果我們是有合理事故加證明的情況之下對方回答他說我們沒有然後還是呢因為你們連價單都不給送那對方回答說對我想要請問一下像這樣子的對話他的情況是什麼那我們現在的這一些如果我們的軍人弟兄如果他真的有要事要請假的話那我們現在的狀態是連價單都不能去遞送的情形嗎"},{"start":120.509,"end":144.972,"text":"委員好 我是陸行部參謀長向您說明一下那因為這一次的話是8天7夜那我們也非常清楚說跟往常的一個這個休假方式有改變因為我預望的話是5天4夜那這一次的話從這個禮拜五到這個下禮拜五從未審慎評估之後根本同仁講清楚說明白那基本上他們有相關的事故的部分完成相關的佐證資料都已經奉核可以批示沒有問題"},{"start":152.935,"end":172.203,"text":"我希望你們可以去調查一下你們在陸軍司令部裡面的情況因為或許你的認知是如此但是我們在執行下去的時候我們可以看到很清楚這個裡面的對話相關人我們都查核過確認有此事只是因為今天要保護人家所以我們孤影其名但是我是確認過情況的"},{"start":173.504,"end":197.86,"text":"那所以既然你也說到了如果今天我們的國軍弟兄即便在這個情況下他要請假他有合理的理由你們不應該連假單都不給送假單送了之後你要合或不合他的事他的所謂的合理事故合不合理你們可以做評斷但是我覺得不應該對我們的國軍弟兄連假單送出去都不行這個部分可不可以回去研究一下"},{"start":198.2,"end":198.64,"text":"我們想要問一下邱部長"},{"start":216.057,"end":218.758,"text":"我們這個目前去年9月的時候您談過潛艦國造的進度我們都是按照節點在管制的那請問當時您談這件事情的理由是什麼為什麼當時呢你談到說我們在後續的潛艦預算編列"},{"start":232.463,"end":232.583,"text":"：徐巧芯"},{"start":247.113,"end":262.908,"text":"每個工作推動有它的一個階段性,這個就叫節點管制。重要節點我們把它管控了以後,有什麼好處呢?它可能準備不夠周圍的,我們已經看出來,你要準備不夠周圍,這個節點打不到,我們要督促它。"},{"start":263.989,"end":291.181,"text":"至於這個後續建的一個建造我當初也有講過沒有錯一定要經過我們測評以後第一艘人艦沒有問題才能夠投注於後面但目前測評正在做正在做那我們就講也得要預化如果做成的後面就要建案但是這個不是一觸可乘的總目標不會變國建國造國機國造但是我們節點管控是有必要的"},{"start":291.981,"end":316.307,"text":"我是非常同意剛剛邱部長您講到的節點管制的部分因為我們大家對於國艦國造都有期待我們也希望一艘一艘的能夠依次依序能夠做好辦好所以我也覺得目前當時沒有去編列後續的預算是因為我們前面的測試還沒有完成這樣子的一個處理方式跟措施是正確的"},{"start":316.887,"end":324.057,"text":"所以我想要問一下在接下來的這個海昆號我們有預計什麼時候要去做HAT跟SAT的測試了嗎?我們就針對可以說的部分說就好了"},{"start":328.765,"end":357.104,"text":"報告委員現在海關號目前正在執行HAT測試那HAT測試要全部完成之後我們接續才會執行出海試測所以說現在並沒有一個很明確的時間表好那沒有很明確的時間表的情況之下我們又配合剛剛談到的整個節點管制那後續所謂編列第二艘這個國艦國造的部分那會不會跟著這個騎乘那有所往後延期的情況請教部長"},{"start":358.865,"end":361.708,"text":"請問一下我們在SAT測試完成之前會去編列第二艘的潛艦預算嗎?"},{"start":384.954,"end":408.399,"text":"報告委員我們國軍的建軍主要是計劃等預算那如果我們等到第一條船交艦之後才開始準備這個計劃那我們可能要花相當的時間那我請問一下那我們在第一艘的SAT測試做完之前會編列第三艘的潛艦計劃嗎的預算嗎我們不要講第二艘第三艘要編嗎"},{"start":411.417,"end":431.221,"text":"其實我們現在正在洽談中因為預算到底要多少那些報紙上面寫的很多的數字都不一樣不管是委員從哪邊拿到的資料都不一樣那代表這個計劃預算兵的部分是相當複雜的我們談的是一個那我多講30秒來請說那我們剛剛在機密會議裡面已經說過影響到裝備價款的部分有很多因素"},{"start":439.683,"end":465.462,"text":"這個部分我還沒有問啦所以這個部分這個我沒有要你講機密的部分我們就是按照因為我現在問的是一個邏輯如果我們當談的是所謂的節點管制它必要性我們也同意部長的這個說法那大家也覺得你今天有做完海上測試之後確認沒問題你要開始啟動下一艘船艦那我們也覺得這樣依序依次的做法是合理的我們都來支持"},{"start":466.142,"end":483.584,"text":"如果您剛談到的是說怕第一艘完成之後才編第二艘中間會有一個空窗期那可是怎麼會又編到第三艘去呢就是說你第一艘海上測試完之後到了第二艘這個中間有個空窗期所以你先編一些業務的費用這個我們也能夠理解"},{"start":484.085,"end":507.762,"text":"但是如果一次的把第二艘不要講第三艘了直接編到第八艘直接把第二艘編到第八艘全部兩千多億以上一次編進去這個有符合我們剛剛所說的包含節點管制的邏輯嗎?在邏輯上面來說是不是有一些相違背的地方呢?部長我跟委員報告這剛才前面有委員給我們指導"},{"start":508.964,"end":522.285,"text":"這預算編列都還沒有定逐年編和專案編這也在研擬當中對我們問的是這個邏輯上面您覺得怎麼樣做比較正確邏輯就台灣人講的很清楚計劃等預算我計劃都出來了"},{"start":523.388,"end":544.071,"text":"對,我哪怕講到最後編滿那個計畫都出來了,但哪一天開始這個第一日,那就要看我們那個前面進展的部分了。計畫出來了,那它配著預算要通過嗎?這是兩件不同的事。我們並不反對說要把整個計畫都準備好,但是預算要編列然後先通過嗎?這個是問題啊。"},{"start":545.472,"end":552.793,"text":"所以這個方向上的邏輯今天講的比較清楚了那再來我想要問一下陳建仁院長前幾天突然要求軍中要推行轉型正義的教育請問一下邱部長您覺得目前在國軍裡面哪一個部分要轉型正義了"},{"start":572.301,"end":600.704,"text":"我還沒有了解軍中哪邊叫轉型正義他叫你們一個月以內要籌設軍中轉型正義的外部專家諮詢小組要朝向軍中都有在跟轉型正義的工作人員有相關部隊的會或軍中的會他們都找我們去開我們在開當中我們也會表達我們也會表達當然我們軍中有很多做法"},{"start":601.505,"end":601.665,"text":"所以我們現在軍中"},{"start":617.21,"end":617.871,"text":"那是哪一個部分呢?"},{"start":638.717,"end":656.239,"text":"那假如說他把這個這個項目講得很明確的話我們就針對這個項目明確的好那我請問一下如果因為陳院長他也沒有講得很清楚如果是要求軍中要去除所有的蔣介石的同項部長這樣子的轉型正義您同意嗎"},{"start":656.9,"end":666.888,"text":"我已經講過了 這個上面有討論過當初的規範很清楚在公開場合他要怎麼處理我沒有意見但銀區是我們的財產銀區裡面所有東西都是國軍的財產我財產我只要沒有違法"},{"start":675.214,"end":695.695,"text":"那為什麼要去辯呢?所以我一貫的堅持啊。對,多年前講說要我們來做的話,光這一點我有我的堅持。對,但我絕對要跟你講得很清楚。不要認為講我們這個行政團隊在那邊攪局。講這個界定不清楚。第一個,你想想,軍中是個開放團體,那我就問各位能不能接受。"},{"start":696.917,"end":697.538,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":710.345,"end":711.226,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":729.156,"end":743.286,"text":"但是您的態度我們都很認同可是我們整個同仁在這個運作的過程當中似乎是感不太上的所以已經過了好一陣子了211的自傷案你們也都提出在這裡說要"},{"start":744.827,"end":758.264,"text":"有檢討的報告要來做可是我們3月22號發函縣指部跟4月12號發函國防部都沒有回覆正式的公文請問可不可以簡短的說明一下當時承諾的211案"},{"start":762.332,"end":785.704,"text":"我跟委員報告,任何一件不幸的事情發生,都大家遺憾。但我們就一去追的話,一定從內部外部通通來考量。我記得上回委員我講一句話,有一些人他的個性比較,抗壓力不一樣的。但後來委員就引用這句話,好像在講太殘酷了吧。我沒有要推這個責任。事情一發生,"},{"start":787.024,"end":801.138,"text":"內部要檢討管理方面有問題打邊方面工作分配是否得到有管教不當的問題外部他的感情方面家庭方面債務方面這我們就要納入檢討出來以後我們不能公佈"},{"start":802.279,"end":814.056,"text":"我們不能公布,因為公布以後被我們的獨斷了,會造成其他後遺症。既然檢調介入了,檢調的報告依那個為主。假如委員要這個報告,我們拿不出來,所以檢調還沒給我們。要給我們,我們檢調了。"},{"start":817.088,"end":820.79,"text":"我舉一個例子來說當初你們在質詢的時候你們明明沒有去看班表卻直接講說已經確認過了他就是戰二邪六這個不需要檢討嗎?這個部分的檢討報告跟檢察官有什麼關係?"},{"start":841.322,"end":865.432,"text":"那為什麼什麼都沒有呢?我們詢問了老半天也都沒有呢?所以我講的是整個211的事件是非常多嘛因為我時間不夠所以不用給我答覆但是你們應該要提供書面的資料我是說因為我時間不夠我要尊重主席我時間夠的話你們可以講啊那個主席如果同意的話可以讓他們講或者是尊重主席的時間好不好那你們做答覆"},{"start":866.454,"end":868.435,"text":"所以你們行政調查報告的部分也不能提供給委員會?"},{"start":886.238,"end":909.817,"text":"因為我們都有提供給檢調部份就沒辦法行政調查的部份也都不能提供當初就是怕會有失公允所以我們在行政調查部份那也一併有來做啊給檢查官那最後我講一下這就是我們現在的一個怪象我告訴大家喔凱凱案在未還委員會他也是檢調在調查的案子衛福部有沒有提供"},{"start":911.897,"end":930.385,"text":"簡討報告給所有委員參考是有的所以這裡的很多包括我們的主席都是非常資深的立法委員了你剛剛的說法我是完全不能認同的不然就是你說只有在國防委員會有這個狀況其他的委員會裡面行政調查跟檢調的調查它是分開的"},{"start":931.92,"end":932.06,"text":"徐巧芯"}]}}}}