{"id":151296,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151296","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627d0dd74dce529aa440915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c9405ff796f0744bca55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"12:02:24 - 12:12:47","影片長度":"00:10:23","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":623,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:12:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:02:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":709,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（12時2分）謝謝葉元之委員，我們對這個高齡教育的議題，在觀念上面是完全一致，共同努力。請潘部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["吳委員春城：今天都在談為私校請命，開放私校轉型，重啟教育生機，這個議題大家前面都有關注過了，那教改30年，現在廣設大學過剩，其實這個看起來破洞百出，縫縫補補，教育部、教育人員都很辛苦，所以看起來真的需要再一次重新的教改，教育需要大改革啦！因為這個問題非常複雜，我也相信我們的事務官都無力可回天，也因為這個問題很複雜，接任的部長一開始一定也是很保守地面對這麼複雜的問題，所以看起來改革的機會其實不大，這件事情又要再縫縫補補3年、錯過時機，潘部長算是在位最久的教育部長，你問題看得最深入，過去有很多事情因為你人在江湖、身不由己，這些我都可以理解，但是我希望這個時候你可以好好地把你的見解……因為必須要有這樣的見解才有辦法解決這個問題，你不是揮揮手，不留一片雲彩，我希望你還是可以繼續地貢獻長期以來你對教育的一些想法，過去有些可能不方便講，現在應該要大聲疾呼。","好，首先，我覺得應該可以承認廣設大學是錯誤的政策，因為要面對問題才有辦法可以解決問題，是嗎？部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，應該這樣子說，其實我有詳細地閱讀當時的審議報告書，其實它是一個方向，就是考量當時的狀況，但是處理的過程，第一個，這是結構的問題，當時增設的大學滿多都是從專科到技術學院、到科大。"],["吳委員春城：都是直接升級。"],["潘部長文忠：因為那是一個結構，委員大概瞭解我的意思，因為產業需求人力也是一個結構，整個社會、各個人力需求也是一個結構，如果要走一致化，我認為速度很快，因為短短不到10年，就是委員看到的這個數字變化，如果從這個角度來看，確實我們現在必須要面對當時的狀況，就是一個階段已經減少了。"],["吳委員春城：對，可是這個過程，我們不是要追究責任，其實這也不是你做的，這是30年前的事情，只是這條路線，至少從人口結構，因為當時是用前面這個金字塔型，但是這整個變遷過程你也看得出來，你看，1970年0到14歲有39.7%，到了2040年只剩下10.2%，剩下四分之一，這是一定的趨勢，所以未來這個問題會繼續，目前還不是探底的時候，所以我們必須要面對問題、承認問題，這樣我們才有辦法改善。改善也沒有關係，但是現在看起來，從我們推出退場條例之後，退場好像是剩下來唯一的路，而且目前這個退場政策還會加速死刑，私校工會預估未來5年將會有40所的私校面臨退場的危機，有將近7,600位教師會失業，請問教育部準備好了嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，當然，少子化是一個很清楚的數據，我也跟委員報告，今天的報告也有特別提出來，在大學校院，其實臺灣的高教資源和素質是不錯的，面對這方面，除了國內生源減少，其實這一段我們還是很努力地在做2件事，我就講關鍵的，一個就是學校在數量和自己的經營上有做一個比較合理的，就是我們講的「適格的瘦身」，因為過去有些學校的作法就是這樣。另外一個就是境外學生的招生，目前我們所採取的這些鼓勵學校的措施，這幾年雖然面對疫情，也有看到成效。但是這一段路學校也很辛苦，因為你要能夠有這樣的條件，我要跟委員說，它會是一個努力的過程，當然，如果這個過程學校投入得不夠，財務影響會是最大的因素。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝部長。其實我來自於企業，企業中有一個心法，就是「阻力是進步的動力」，天下沒有都是很順的，廣設大學政策，然後哇！大學就很多了，現在因為少子化退場，那數量一定會下降，但我們有沒有辦法讓它再重生？其實企業是不斷的……如果事情都是順境的話，那就不會改革，也不會改變。同樣的，在公部門遇到問題就是最佳的改革時機，如果都很順的話，我們也不用討論這個問題，所以行政部門要重啟教育的生機就是在這個時候，這是最好的時機，如果你都很順，那沒有人會聽你的話，所以遇到困難就是我們進步的動力。","但是我們現在都只看到夕陽，我們都在等它下山，但是太陽下山之後就會更好嗎？會帶來多大的災難？我們有沒有看到旭日？現在都是重退場、輕轉型，所有的心力都在做退場，啊！你要不要退？如果是企業就不會這樣做事情，因為企業投入這麼多的資源，如果這條路走不順、走不通，外界環境改變的時候，我就會善用這些資源轉向另外一個，企業往往會在轉型的過程中發展得更好，所有企業成功的故事都是這個樣子，我希望我們的公部門也能夠這個樣子。","當然，「第三人生大學」已經談過很多了，剛才葉元之委員也有提到，現在日本不把樂齡大學當做休閒，而是重啟他的第三人生。為什麼我們的大學只能讓16歲的人入學，不能讓60歲的人入學？這個也是很奇怪的觀念。16歲入學就是從第一人生培養第二人生，那我們現在多出一個第三人生，從第二人生進入第三人生當然也要進大學，60歲不是進養老院，而是進大學，希望教育部高喊這樣子的主張，這樣會振奮人心，現在有600萬人等著教育部這樣振奮人心的政策，我們要有決心往這一條路走，而且要呼籲大家，這個可以讓你很充實且實現自我，而且還會讓整個社會、臺灣更強壯，讓整個產業及下一代有希望。"],["潘部長文忠：是，我跟委員報告，上次我跟委員請教得到委員這個訊息後，為什麼我會請終身司儘快組一個專案小組？原因就是在既有的基礎上，是不是委員所提到的這個，部分的學校可以開始展開這方面？我想這個後續再請委員繼續指教。"],["吳委員春城：好，最後，很感謝部長認同第三人生大學，而且現在還有推動小組，我們也有跟推動小組討論，不過目前這個好像還是在終身教育司，這個層次的編制、位階和經費是沒辦法解決這個問題的，請問現在有沒有一個組織、編制是由次長來督導？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，為什麼我當時會說先組小組？因為我們必須要先做盤整，我贊同委員剛才提到的，如果就教育部這個體系而言，這個應該要跨過終身司，因為這裡面有很多都跟高教、技職這2個司有關，後續比較合理的規劃會請一位督導的次長來擔任召集人。"],["吳委員春城：部長，你可不可以交待？至少你要把這個交下去。"],["潘部長文忠：OK！"],["吳委員春城：不然我們好不容易努力地走到這裡，可能又要走回頭路。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，因為時間有點短，但是我要跟委員報告，當時我覺得這個有必要，所以我就啟動了，目前我們和學界有一些討論，我想等基礎有些輪廓後，未來在推動上一定要跨司處。"],["吳委員春城：OK！部長，在你交棒的時候一定要把這個交下去。"],["潘部長文忠：我覺得這在臺灣高齡社會，未來高教資源在運用上，我認為這是很必要的。"],["吳委員春城：好，這點拜託部長。"],["潘部長文忠：瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝2位，謝謝。","接下來我們請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"151296","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151296","tool":"pyannote","id":"151296-pyannote"},"job_id":"ctXCjeRMvlLDyHjw","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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00:01:37,900\n因為這問題很複雜接任的部長一開始一定也很保守面對這麼複雜的問題所以看起來改革的機會其實不大所以這事情又要再逢逢不補三年那錯過時機所以今天我就是說這個潘部長算是我們在位最久的教育部長\n\n6\n00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:38,480\n主席\n\n7\n00:01:53,626 --> 00:01:53,866\n首先我覺得\n\n8\n00:02:18,410 --> 00:02:18,570\n是嗎?部長\n\n9\n00:02:27,443 --> 00:02:51,582\n我應該這樣子說其實我有詳細閱讀當時的審議報告書它其實是一個方向考量當時的但是在整個處理的過程我覺得我應該這樣子說第一個是結構的問題當時增設的蠻多都是從專科到技術學院到科大因為那是一個結構我大概了解我意思因為產業需求人力也是一個結構\n\n10\n00:03:15,345 --> 00:03:15,765\n現在你看1970年又0到14歲39.7%\n\n11\n00:03:43,965 --> 00:04:01,010\n到2011年只剩下10.2%剩下三分之一四分之一這個是一定的趨勢所以未來一定這個問題會繼續目前還不是探底的時候所以我們必須要面對問題承認問題我們才有辦法改善來\n\n12\n00:04:05,567 --> 00:04:22,589\n但是好改善也沒有關係就是現在看起來從我們的退場條例之後這個退場好像只剩下唯一的路而且這個退場條例目前的這個政策有加速死刑\n\n13\n00:04:23,666 --> 00:04:25,126\n請問這樣子教育部準備好了嗎?\n\n14\n00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:57,803\n根文報告這個當然少子化是一個很清楚的數據那現在為根文報告今天的報告也特別提出來在大學校園其實台灣這個高校的資源還有我們的素質其實是不錯\n\n15\n00:04:58,885 --> 00:05:16,626\n面對這方面除了國內的生源減少其實這一段很努力的在做兩件我講關鍵的一個就是學校能夠在整個數量跟自己的經營上做一個比較合理的我們講的叫做事格的瘦身這個是一個因為過去有學學校是這樣的做法\n\n16\n00:05:16,946 --> 00:05:42,602\n另外一個就是對於一些境外的學生的招生目前我們所採取的這些鼓勵學校的措施這幾年雖然面對疫情也看到有成效但這一段路學校也很辛苦因為你要能夠有這樣的條件這個是我跟委員說他會是一個在努力的過程當然如果這個過程學校投入不夠財務影響是最大的因素那個謝謝部長\n\n17\n00:05:45,163 --> 00:06:12,357\n其實我是來自於企業啦企業當中有一個心法就是主力就是進步的動力沒有天下沒有那個很順的我們看到廣設大學政策然後就哇大學人很多嘛那些因為少子化退場一定會下降嘛有沒有辦法讓他再重生其實企業喔企業是不斷的因為人都很舒適的在一條如果事情都是順境的話都不會改革都不會改變\n\n18\n00:06:13,297 --> 00:06:34,951\n同樣的我們在公部門當中遇到的這就是改革的最佳時機如果很順的話我們也不用討論這個問題但是我們行政部門我們是重啟教育的生機就是在這時候最好的時機如果你很順沒有人會聽你的話所以遇到困難就是我們進步的動力有這個\n\n19\n00:06:36,673 --> 00:06:50,498\n但是呢我們現在都只看到夕陽都在等著它下山下山下山以後有什麼就會更好嗎而且會帶來多大的災難其實有沒有看到所以現在整個的就是重退場輕轉型\n\n20\n00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:53,020\n我看到我們的教育我們的公部門也能夠這樣子\n\n21\n00:07:18,939 --> 00:07:39,580\n那當然這個已經有談過很多的第三人生大學這個日本現在在這個就是剛才提到我們的議員之委員提到的就不是現在的樂齡大學把他當作休閒啦而是重啟他的第三人生因為我們的大學為什麼都是只是讓16歲入學呢不能讓60歲入學呢這個也是一個很奇怪的觀念\n\n22\n00:07:41,021 --> 00:08:06,916\n16歲入學就是從第一人生要培養第二人生那我們現在人生多出一個第三人生出來從第二人生進入第三人生當然你也要進大學啊60歲不是進年老院而是進大學希望教育部高喊這樣子的主張會振奮人心啊現在這個有600萬人在等著教育部這樣子振奮人心的有決心我們要往這條路走而且呼籲大家\n\n23\n00:08:08,217 --> 00:08:37,136\n您有一個有一個很充實的實現自我而且會讓整個社會讓台灣更強壯讓整個產業而且下一代有希望我跟委員報告上次跟委員請教得到委員這個訊息之後我為什麼會請鍾先生儘快組成一個專案小組原因我就覺得說在既有這樣的一個基礎上是不是委員所提到的這個能夠就有部分的學校可以開始做這方面展開這個我想後續來請\n\n24\n00:08:42,798 --> 00:08:59,987\n現在部長也很感謝部長對第三人生大學有認同而且現在有推動小組我們也跟推動小組討論不過現在目前好像還是在終身學習師這個層次因為他們的編制跟位置跟經費是沒辦法解決這個問題的\n\n25\n00:09:03,129 --> 00:09:20,408\n請問現在有沒有一個組織一個編制是由次長什麼樣來督導為什麼說當時先組小組因為這個其實是應該就目前我們所要先做一個盤整那這個後續我贊同委員剛才提到的\n\n26\n00:09:21,148 --> 00:09:36,897\n如果就教育部這個體系而言是應該要跨過中生師因為這個裡面很多都跟高教技職這兩個師啦如果後續這個我想比較合理的規劃會是請督導的一位次長來擔任召集人\n\n27\n00:09:37,958 --> 00:09:49,884\n那個部長你可不可以就要交代至少你要把這個交下去不然的話就是好不容易我們很努力的走到這裡因為時間有點短但是委員當時我跟委員報告說這個我覺得有必要我就啟動那我想現在目前他也找相關實務跟這個學界有一些討論我想這個基礎比較有一個輪廓後我想未來再推動上一定要跨市處\n\n28\n00:10:04,570 --> 00:10:17,137\n所以部長在你交棒的時候一定要把這個交下去我覺得這是一個未來很值得臺灣高齡社會在這個教育資源高教資源的應用上我認為是一個很必要的就是這一點這個拜託部長了解謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1752\t2015\t主席\n9056\t34176\t好 我們謝謝岳元智委員對我們在高齡教育的議題觀念上面是完全一致共同努力那我們請潘部長好 請部長我今天都在談為私校請命開放私校的轉型重啟教育的生機\n37168\t51764\t那這一題大家前面都關注過了那這個教改30年然後現在大學廣設大學過剩那其實這個是一個看起來\n52932\t57675\t我相信我們的事務官都無力可回天\n77266\t97900\t因為這問題很複雜接任的部長一開始一定也很保守面對這麼複雜的問題所以看起來改革的機會其實不大所以這事情又要再逢逢不補三年那錯過時機所以今天我就是說這個潘部長算是我們在位最久的教育部長\n98200\t98480\t主席\n113626\t113866\t首先我覺得\n138410\t138570\t是嗎?部長\n147443\t171582\t我應該這樣子說其實我有詳細閱讀當時的審議報告書它其實是一個方向考量當時的但是在整個處理的過程我覺得我應該這樣子說第一個是結構的問題當時增設的蠻多都是從專科到技術學院到科大因為那是一個結構我大概了解我意思因為產業需求人力也是一個結構\n172363\t195145\t對對對對對\n195345\t195765\t現在你看1970年又0到14歲39.7%\n223965\t241010\t到2011年只剩下10.2%剩下三分之一四分之一這個是一定的趨勢所以未來一定這個問題會繼續目前還不是探底的時候所以我們必須要面對問題承認問題我們才有辦法改善 來\n245567\t262589\t但是好改善也沒有關係就是現在看起來從我們的退場條例之後這個退場好像只剩下唯一的路而且這個退場條例目前的這個政策有加速死刑\n263666\t265126\t請問這樣子教育部準備好了嗎?\n283200\t297803\t根文報告這個當然少子化是一個很清楚的數據那現在為根文報告今天的報告也特別提出來在大學校園其實台灣這個高校的資源還有我們的素質其實是不錯\n298885\t316626\t面對這方面除了國內的生源減少其實這一段很努力的在做兩件我講關鍵的一個就是學校能夠在整個數量跟自己的經營上做一個比較合理的我們講的叫做事格的瘦身這個是一個因為過去有學學校是這樣的做法\n316946\t342602\t另外一個就是對於一些境外的學生的招生目前我們所採取的這些鼓勵學校的措施這幾年雖然面對疫情也看到有成效但這一段路學校也很辛苦因為你要能夠有這樣的條件這個是我跟委員說他會是一個在努力的過程當然如果這個過程學校投入不夠財務影響是最大的因素那個謝謝部長\n345163\t372357\t其實我是來自於企業啦企業當中有一個心法就是主力就是進步的動力沒有天下沒有那個很順的我們看到廣設大學政策然後就哇大學人很多嘛那些因為少子化退場一定會下降嘛有沒有辦法讓他再重生其實企業喔企業是不斷的因為人都很舒適的在一條如果事情都是順境的話都不會改革都不會改變\n373297\t394951\t同樣的我們在公部門當中遇到的這就是改革的最佳時機如果很順的話我們也不用討論這個問題但是我們行政部門我們是重啟教育的生機就是在這時候最好的時機如果你很順沒有人會聽你的話所以遇到困難就是我們進步的動力有這個\n396673\t410498\t但是呢我們現在都只看到夕陽都在等著它下山下山下山以後有什麼就會更好嗎而且會帶來多大的災難其實有沒有看到所以現在整個的就是重退場輕轉型\n412279\t413020\t我看到我們的教育我們的公部門也能夠這樣子\n438939\t459580\t那當然這個已經有談過很多的第三人生大學這個日本現在在這個就是剛才提到我們的議員之委員提到的就不是現在的樂齡大學把他當作休閒啦而是重啟他的第三人生因為我們的大學為什麼都是只是讓16歲入學呢不能讓60歲入學呢這個也是一個很奇怪的觀念\n461021\t486916\t16歲入學就是從第一人生要培養第二人生那我們現在人生多出一個第三人生出來從第二人生進入第三人生當然你也要進大學啊60歲不是進年老院而是進大學希望教育部高喊這樣子的主張會振奮人心啊現在這個有600萬人在等著教育部這樣子振奮人心的有決心我們要往這條路走而且呼籲大家\n488217\t517136\t您有一個有一個很充實的實現自我而且會讓整個社會讓台灣更強壯讓整個產業而且下一代有希望我跟委員報告上次跟委員請教得到委員這個訊息之後我為什麼會請鍾先生儘快組成一個專案小組原因我就覺得說在既有這樣的一個基礎上是不是委員所提到的這個能夠就有部分的學校可以開始做這方面展開這個我想後續來請\n522798\t539987\t現在部長也很感謝部長對第三人生大學有認同而且現在有推動小組我們也跟推動小組討論不過現在目前好像還是在終身學習師這個層次因為他們的編制跟位置跟經費是沒辦法解決這個問題的\n543129\t560408\t請問現在有沒有一個組織一個編制是由次長什麼樣來督導為什麼說當時先組小組因為這個其實是應該就目前我們所要先做一個盤整那這個後續我贊同委員剛才提到的\n561148\t576897\t如果就教育部這個體系而言是應該要跨過中生師因為這個裡面很多都跟高教技職這兩個師啦如果後續這個我想比較合理的規劃會是請督導的一位次長來擔任召集人\n577958\t589884\t那個部長你可不可以就要交代至少你要把這個交下去不然的話就是好不容易我們很努力的走到這裡因為時間有點短但是委員當時我跟委員報告說這個我覺得有必要我就啟動那我想現在目前他也找相關實務跟這個學界有一些討論我想這個基礎比較有一個輪廓後我想未來再推動上一定要跨市處\n604570\t617137\t所以部長在你交棒的時候一定要把這個交下去我覺得這是一個未來很值得臺灣高齡社會在這個教育資源高教資源的應用上我認為是一個很必要的就是這一點這個拜託部長了解謝謝委員謝謝\n","txt":"主席\n好 我們謝謝岳元智委員對我們在高齡教育的議題觀念上面是完全一致共同努力那我們請潘部長好 請部長我今天都在談為私校請命開放私校的轉型重啟教育的生機\n那這一題大家前面都關注過了那這個教改30年然後現在大學廣設大學過剩那其實這個是一個看起來\n我相信我們的事務官都無力可回天\n因為這問題很複雜接任的部長一開始一定也很保守面對這麼複雜的問題所以看起來改革的機會其實不大所以這事情又要再逢逢不補三年那錯過時機所以今天我就是說這個潘部長算是我們在位最久的教育部長\n主席\n首先我覺得\n是嗎?部長\n我應該這樣子說其實我有詳細閱讀當時的審議報告書它其實是一個方向考量當時的但是在整個處理的過程我覺得我應該這樣子說第一個是結構的問題當時增設的蠻多都是從專科到技術學院到科大因為那是一個結構我大概了解我意思因為產業需求人力也是一個結構\n對對對對對\n現在你看1970年又0到14歲39.7%\n到2011年只剩下10.2%剩下三分之一四分之一這個是一定的趨勢所以未來一定這個問題會繼續目前還不是探底的時候所以我們必須要面對問題承認問題我們才有辦法改善 來\n但是好改善也沒有關係就是現在看起來從我們的退場條例之後這個退場好像只剩下唯一的路而且這個退場條例目前的這個政策有加速死刑\n請問這樣子教育部準備好了嗎?\n根文報告這個當然少子化是一個很清楚的數據那現在為根文報告今天的報告也特別提出來在大學校園其實台灣這個高校的資源還有我們的素質其實是不錯\n面對這方面除了國內的生源減少其實這一段很努力的在做兩件我講關鍵的一個就是學校能夠在整個數量跟自己的經營上做一個比較合理的我們講的叫做事格的瘦身這個是一個因為過去有學學校是這樣的做法\n另外一個就是對於一些境外的學生的招生目前我們所採取的這些鼓勵學校的措施這幾年雖然面對疫情也看到有成效但這一段路學校也很辛苦因為你要能夠有這樣的條件這個是我跟委員說他會是一個在努力的過程當然如果這個過程學校投入不夠財務影響是最大的因素那個謝謝部長\n其實我是來自於企業啦企業當中有一個心法就是主力就是進步的動力沒有天下沒有那個很順的我們看到廣設大學政策然後就哇大學人很多嘛那些因為少子化退場一定會下降嘛有沒有辦法讓他再重生其實企業喔企業是不斷的因為人都很舒適的在一條如果事情都是順境的話都不會改革都不會改變\n同樣的我們在公部門當中遇到的這就是改革的最佳時機如果很順的話我們也不用討論這個問題但是我們行政部門我們是重啟教育的生機就是在這時候最好的時機如果你很順沒有人會聽你的話所以遇到困難就是我們進步的動力有這個\n但是呢我們現在都只看到夕陽都在等著它下山下山下山以後有什麼就會更好嗎而且會帶來多大的災難其實有沒有看到所以現在整個的就是重退場輕轉型\n我看到我們的教育我們的公部門也能夠這樣子\n那當然這個已經有談過很多的第三人生大學這個日本現在在這個就是剛才提到我們的議員之委員提到的就不是現在的樂齡大學把他當作休閒啦而是重啟他的第三人生因為我們的大學為什麼都是只是讓16歲入學呢不能讓60歲入學呢這個也是一個很奇怪的觀念\n16歲入學就是從第一人生要培養第二人生那我們現在人生多出一個第三人生出來從第二人生進入第三人生當然你也要進大學啊60歲不是進年老院而是進大學希望教育部高喊這樣子的主張會振奮人心啊現在這個有600萬人在等著教育部這樣子振奮人心的有決心我們要往這條路走而且呼籲大家\n您有一個有一個很充實的實現自我而且會讓整個社會讓台灣更強壯讓整個產業而且下一代有希望我跟委員報告上次跟委員請教得到委員這個訊息之後我為什麼會請鍾先生儘快組成一個專案小組原因我就覺得說在既有這樣的一個基礎上是不是委員所提到的這個能夠就有部分的學校可以開始做這方面展開這個我想後續來請\n現在部長也很感謝部長對第三人生大學有認同而且現在有推動小組我們也跟推動小組討論不過現在目前好像還是在終身學習師這個層次因為他們的編制跟位置跟經費是沒辦法解決這個問題的\n請問現在有沒有一個組織一個編制是由次長什麼樣來督導為什麼說當時先組小組因為這個其實是應該就目前我們所要先做一個盤整那這個後續我贊同委員剛才提到的\n如果就教育部這個體系而言是應該要跨過中生師因為這個裡面很多都跟高教技職這兩個師啦如果後續這個我想比較合理的規劃會是請督導的一位次長來擔任召集人\n那個部長你可不可以就要交代至少你要把這個交下去不然的話就是好不容易我們很努力的走到這裡因為時間有點短但是委員當時我跟委員報告說這個我覺得有必要我就啟動那我想現在目前他也找相關實務跟這個學界有一些討論我想這個基礎比較有一個輪廓後我想未來再推動上一定要跨市處\n所以部長在你交棒的時候一定要把這個交下去我覺得這是一個未來很值得臺灣高齡社會在這個教育資源高教資源的應用上我認為是一個很必要的就是這一點這個拜託部長了解謝謝委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.752 --> 00:02.015\n主席\n\n00:09.056 --> 00:34.176\n好我們謝謝岳元智委員對我們在高齡教育的議題觀念上面是完全一致共同努力那我們請潘部長好請部長我今天都在談為私校請命開放私校的轉型重啟教育的生機\n\n00:37.168 --> 00:51.764\n那這一題大家前面都關注過了那這個教改30年然後現在大學廣設大學過剩那其實這個是一個看起來\n\n00:52.932 --> 00:57.675\n我相信我們的事務官都無力可回天\n\n01:17.266 --> 01:37.900\n因為這問題很複雜接任的部長一開始一定也很保守面對這麼複雜的問題所以看起來改革的機會其實不大所以這事情又要再逢逢不補三年那錯過時機所以今天我就是說這個潘部長算是我們在位最久的教育部長\n\n01:38.200 --> 01:38.480\n主席\n\n01:53.626 --> 01:53.866\n首先我覺得\n\n02:18.410 --> 02:18.570\n是嗎?部長\n\n02:27.443 --> 02:51.582\n我應該這樣子說其實我有詳細閱讀當時的審議報告書它其實是一個方向考量當時的但是在整個處理的過程我覺得我應該這樣子說第一個是結構的問題當時增設的蠻多都是從專科到技術學院到科大因為那是一個結構我大概了解我意思因為產業需求人力也是一個結構\n\n03:15.345 --> 03:15.765\n現在你看1970年又0到14歲39.7%\n\n03:43.965 --> 04:01.010\n到2011年只剩下10.2%剩下三分之一四分之一這個是一定的趨勢所以未來一定這個問題會繼續目前還不是探底的時候所以我們必須要面對問題承認問題我們才有辦法改善來\n\n04:05.567 --> 04:22.589\n但是好改善也沒有關係就是現在看起來從我們的退場條例之後這個退場好像只剩下唯一的路而且這個退場條例目前的這個政策有加速死刑\n\n04:23.666 --> 04:25.126\n請問這樣子教育部準備好了嗎?\n\n04:43.200 --> 04:57.803\n根文報告這個當然少子化是一個很清楚的數據那現在為根文報告今天的報告也特別提出來在大學校園其實台灣這個高校的資源還有我們的素質其實是不錯\n\n04:58.885 --> 05:16.626\n面對這方面除了國內的生源減少其實這一段很努力的在做兩件我講關鍵的一個就是學校能夠在整個數量跟自己的經營上做一個比較合理的我們講的叫做事格的瘦身這個是一個因為過去有學學校是這樣的做法\n\n05:16.946 --> 05:42.602\n另外一個就是對於一些境外的學生的招生目前我們所採取的這些鼓勵學校的措施這幾年雖然面對疫情也看到有成效但這一段路學校也很辛苦因為你要能夠有這樣的條件這個是我跟委員說他會是一個在努力的過程當然如果這個過程學校投入不夠財務影響是最大的因素那個謝謝部長\n\n05:45.163 --> 06:12.357\n其實我是來自於企業啦企業當中有一個心法就是主力就是進步的動力沒有天下沒有那個很順的我們看到廣設大學政策然後就哇大學人很多嘛那些因為少子化退場一定會下降嘛有沒有辦法讓他再重生其實企業喔企業是不斷的因為人都很舒適的在一條如果事情都是順境的話都不會改革都不會改變\n\n06:13.297 --> 06:34.951\n同樣的我們在公部門當中遇到的這就是改革的最佳時機如果很順的話我們也不用討論這個問題但是我們行政部門我們是重啟教育的生機就是在這時候最好的時機如果你很順沒有人會聽你的話所以遇到困難就是我們進步的動力有這個\n\n06:36.673 --> 06:50.498\n但是呢我們現在都只看到夕陽都在等著它下山下山下山以後有什麼就會更好嗎而且會帶來多大的災難其實有沒有看到所以現在整個的就是重退場輕轉型\n\n06:52.279 --> 06:53.020\n我看到我們的教育我們的公部門也能夠這樣子\n\n07:18.939 --> 07:39.580\n那當然這個已經有談過很多的第三人生大學這個日本現在在這個就是剛才提到我們的議員之委員提到的就不是現在的樂齡大學把他當作休閒啦而是重啟他的第三人生因為我們的大學為什麼都是只是讓16歲入學呢不能讓60歲入學呢這個也是一個很奇怪的觀念\n\n07:41.021 --> 08:06.916\n16歲入學就是從第一人生要培養第二人生那我們現在人生多出一個第三人生出來從第二人生進入第三人生當然你也要進大學啊60歲不是進年老院而是進大學希望教育部高喊這樣子的主張會振奮人心啊現在這個有600萬人在等著教育部這樣子振奮人心的有決心我們要往這條路走而且呼籲大家\n\n08:08.217 --> 08:37.136\n您有一個有一個很充實的實現自我而且會讓整個社會讓台灣更強壯讓整個產業而且下一代有希望我跟委員報告上次跟委員請教得到委員這個訊息之後我為什麼會請鍾先生儘快組成一個專案小組原因我就覺得說在既有這樣的一個基礎上是不是委員所提到的這個能夠就有部分的學校可以開始做這方面展開這個我想後續來請\n\n08:42.798 --> 08:59.987\n現在部長也很感謝部長對第三人生大學有認同而且現在有推動小組我們也跟推動小組討論不過現在目前好像還是在終身學習師這個層次因為他們的編制跟位置跟經費是沒辦法解決這個問題的\n\n09:03.129 --> 09:20.408\n請問現在有沒有一個組織一個編制是由次長什麼樣來督導為什麼說當時先組小組因為這個其實是應該就目前我們所要先做一個盤整那這個後續我贊同委員剛才提到的\n\n09:21.148 --> 09:36.897\n如果就教育部這個體系而言是應該要跨過中生師因為這個裡面很多都跟高教技職這兩個師啦如果後續這個我想比較合理的規劃會是請督導的一位次長來擔任召集人\n\n09:37.958 --> 09:49.884\n那個部長你可不可以就要交代至少你要把這個交下去不然的話就是好不容易我們很努力的走到這裡因為時間有點短但是委員當時我跟委員報告說這個我覺得有必要我就啟動那我想現在目前他也找相關實務跟這個學界有一些討論我想這個基礎比較有一個輪廓後我想未來再推動上一定要跨市處\n\n10:04.570 --> 10:17.137\n所以部長在你交棒的時候一定要把這個交下去我覺得這是一個未來很值得臺灣高齡社會在這個教育資源高教資源的應用上我認為是一個很必要的就是這一點這個拜託部長了解謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.752,"end":2.015,"text":"主席"},{"start":9.056,"end":34.176,"text":"好 我們謝謝岳元智委員對我們在高齡教育的議題觀念上面是完全一致共同努力那我們請潘部長好 請部長我今天都在談為私校請命開放私校的轉型重啟教育的生機"},{"start":37.168,"end":51.764,"text":"那這一題大家前面都關注過了那這個教改30年然後現在大學廣設大學過剩那其實這個是一個看起來"},{"start":52.932,"end":57.675,"text":"我相信我們的事務官都無力可回天"},{"start":77.266,"end":97.9,"text":"因為這問題很複雜接任的部長一開始一定也很保守面對這麼複雜的問題所以看起來改革的機會其實不大所以這事情又要再逢逢不補三年那錯過時機所以今天我就是說這個潘部長算是我們在位最久的教育部長"},{"start":98.2,"end":98.48,"text":"主席"},{"start":113.626,"end":113.866,"text":"首先我覺得"},{"start":138.41,"end":138.57,"text":"是嗎?部長"},{"start":147.443,"end":171.582,"text":"我應該這樣子說其實我有詳細閱讀當時的審議報告書它其實是一個方向考量當時的但是在整個處理的過程我覺得我應該這樣子說第一個是結構的問題當時增設的蠻多都是從專科到技術學院到科大因為那是一個結構我大概了解我意思因為產業需求人力也是一個結構"},{"start":172.363,"end":195.145,"text":"對對對對對"},{"start":195.345,"end":195.765,"text":"現在你看1970年又0到14歲39.7%"},{"start":223.965,"end":241.01,"text":"到2011年只剩下10.2%剩下三分之一四分之一這個是一定的趨勢所以未來一定這個問題會繼續目前還不是探底的時候所以我們必須要面對問題承認問題我們才有辦法改善 來"},{"start":245.567,"end":262.589,"text":"但是好改善也沒有關係就是現在看起來從我們的退場條例之後這個退場好像只剩下唯一的路而且這個退場條例目前的這個政策有加速死刑"},{"start":263.666,"end":265.126,"text":"請問這樣子教育部準備好了嗎?"},{"start":283.2,"end":297.803,"text":"根文報告這個當然少子化是一個很清楚的數據那現在為根文報告今天的報告也特別提出來在大學校園其實台灣這個高校的資源還有我們的素質其實是不錯"},{"start":298.885,"end":316.626,"text":"面對這方面除了國內的生源減少其實這一段很努力的在做兩件我講關鍵的一個就是學校能夠在整個數量跟自己的經營上做一個比較合理的我們講的叫做事格的瘦身這個是一個因為過去有學學校是這樣的做法"},{"start":316.946,"end":342.602,"text":"另外一個就是對於一些境外的學生的招生目前我們所採取的這些鼓勵學校的措施這幾年雖然面對疫情也看到有成效但這一段路學校也很辛苦因為你要能夠有這樣的條件這個是我跟委員說他會是一個在努力的過程當然如果這個過程學校投入不夠財務影響是最大的因素那個謝謝部長"},{"start":345.163,"end":372.357,"text":"其實我是來自於企業啦企業當中有一個心法就是主力就是進步的動力沒有天下沒有那個很順的我們看到廣設大學政策然後就哇大學人很多嘛那些因為少子化退場一定會下降嘛有沒有辦法讓他再重生其實企業喔企業是不斷的因為人都很舒適的在一條如果事情都是順境的話都不會改革都不會改變"},{"start":373.297,"end":394.951,"text":"同樣的我們在公部門當中遇到的這就是改革的最佳時機如果很順的話我們也不用討論這個問題但是我們行政部門我們是重啟教育的生機就是在這時候最好的時機如果你很順沒有人會聽你的話所以遇到困難就是我們進步的動力有這個"},{"start":396.673,"end":410.498,"text":"但是呢我們現在都只看到夕陽都在等著它下山下山下山以後有什麼就會更好嗎而且會帶來多大的災難其實有沒有看到所以現在整個的就是重退場輕轉型"},{"start":412.279,"end":413.02,"text":"我看到我們的教育我們的公部門也能夠這樣子"},{"start":438.939,"end":459.58,"text":"那當然這個已經有談過很多的第三人生大學這個日本現在在這個就是剛才提到我們的議員之委員提到的就不是現在的樂齡大學把他當作休閒啦而是重啟他的第三人生因為我們的大學為什麼都是只是讓16歲入學呢不能讓60歲入學呢這個也是一個很奇怪的觀念"},{"start":461.021,"end":486.916,"text":"16歲入學就是從第一人生要培養第二人生那我們現在人生多出一個第三人生出來從第二人生進入第三人生當然你也要進大學啊60歲不是進年老院而是進大學希望教育部高喊這樣子的主張會振奮人心啊現在這個有600萬人在等著教育部這樣子振奮人心的有決心我們要往這條路走而且呼籲大家"},{"start":488.217,"end":517.136,"text":"您有一個有一個很充實的實現自我而且會讓整個社會讓台灣更強壯讓整個產業而且下一代有希望我跟委員報告上次跟委員請教得到委員這個訊息之後我為什麼會請鍾先生儘快組成一個專案小組原因我就覺得說在既有這樣的一個基礎上是不是委員所提到的這個能夠就有部分的學校可以開始做這方面展開這個我想後續來請"},{"start":522.798,"end":539.987,"text":"現在部長也很感謝部長對第三人生大學有認同而且現在有推動小組我們也跟推動小組討論不過現在目前好像還是在終身學習師這個層次因為他們的編制跟位置跟經費是沒辦法解決這個問題的"},{"start":543.129,"end":560.408,"text":"請問現在有沒有一個組織一個編制是由次長什麼樣來督導為什麼說當時先組小組因為這個其實是應該就目前我們所要先做一個盤整那這個後續我贊同委員剛才提到的"},{"start":561.148,"end":576.897,"text":"如果就教育部這個體系而言是應該要跨過中生師因為這個裡面很多都跟高教技職這兩個師啦如果後續這個我想比較合理的規劃會是請督導的一位次長來擔任召集人"},{"start":577.958,"end":589.884,"text":"那個部長你可不可以就要交代至少你要把這個交下去不然的話就是好不容易我們很努力的走到這裡因為時間有點短但是委員當時我跟委員報告說這個我覺得有必要我就啟動那我想現在目前他也找相關實務跟這個學界有一些討論我想這個基礎比較有一個輪廓後我想未來再推動上一定要跨市處"},{"start":604.57,"end":617.137,"text":"所以部長在你交棒的時候一定要把這個交下去我覺得這是一個未來很值得臺灣高齡社會在這個教育資源高教資源的應用上我認為是一個很必要的就是這一點這個拜託部長了解謝謝委員謝謝"}]}}}}