{"id":151301,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151301","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627475b382dfe6f7e02068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c9413ba9401abf90a7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:11:27 - 12:24:25","影片長度":"00:12:58","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":778,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:24:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:11:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":426,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時11分）你好，我請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。今天是潛艦國造相關的機密會報，我不想就技術細節來討論，因為這些技術細節說實在話，對於民眾的溝通上面，它除了增加理解的難度之外，它是屬於包含軍中或者是真的是在研究這一部分的人，所必須要去做技術細節的討論。但是對於風險溝通或者是對於我們民眾的溝通來講，我認為我們必須要很清晰的跟民眾談，目的的導向是什麼。我們從目的的導向來討論，為什麼需要潛艦？因應什麼樣的挑戰我們需要潛艦？部長可不可以不是像對我說的，也是對所有的民眾來簡單的讓他們知道這些基本的國防常識。"],["邱部長國正：我了解，一個國家要做防衛的話，主要還是要靠國防的力量，而國防力量包含了建軍跟備戰。將來要發展什麼樣戰爭，這是一直在研判的，為了因應將來作戰，我們要自我防衛，達到這個目標，我們要發展不對稱的戰爭。什麼叫不對稱？就是以我們比較簡單的裝備，對付你這個大，但是不好發揮的這個力量，這就叫不對稱。那潛艦不是這樣子嗎？如果一艘潛艦在某個地方潛到水裡面，你看水面艦它的顧慮有時候很多，就拿這種來做一個簡單描述，就是我們要強化我們戰力。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以潛艦它能夠發揮不對稱的戰力，它可以使出它的震懾的能量，讓敵方的水面艦會覺得受到威脅，所以會三思去決定是否要來進行對臺灣的攻擊。它是屬於戰略性的，能夠震懾的武器系統，可以這麼說嗎？"],["邱部長國正：可以這樣講，從戰略到戰術都會發生一個關聯性，可以這樣講。"],["陳委員冠廷：那為什麼要自主？為什麼在潛艦的這部分要國造，而不是透過採購的方式？"],["邱部長國正：好，跟委員報告，我們講的有形戰力、無形戰力，不是什麼賣弄的學問。有形戰力大家一聽就懂，什麼叫有形戰力？就是你有偵蒐的能力，偵蒐到敵情以後，你有傳達的通訊能力。第三，你有通訊能力得到敵情以後，你要去把它摧毀掉，要有機動能力跟要有足夠的火力。這四樣以後還有一樣更重要的後支力，什麼叫後支力？後續支援的能力，假如一個國家的裝備沒有辦法自我生產的話，一切找外購，外國裝備來，打掉一樣少一樣。可是自己有這個能耐建的話，打掉一架我再建一架。這個就是源源不斷的後支力，是重要有形戰力的一環。我想所以叫國機國造、國艦國造，聽了以後看有沒有這個必要，你就很明朗了。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，所以在面對這樣的挑戰的時候，可是我們現在面臨到的，可能不是需要十年、二十年之後才會面臨到的挑戰。其實各國的智庫都直接提到一個關鍵的年份，好像是2027年，那我們採取國艦國造這樣的狀況的話，有沒有辦法去因應立即的威脅？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，任何一個建軍，它是一個長遠的一個目標，但是我們難保達到目標之前沒有戰事發生，所以建軍跟備戰最大的差別在哪裡？建軍是未來的仗，你要籌獲跟軍備的支持，一件一件籌獲。但是備戰呢？你在籌獲當中敵人來了，我不能講我那邊還沒出來，你先不要過來，這不可能，所以這就是備戰的範疇。備戰就是說，你現在有什麼裝備，我們就要去應對。我們在建軍以外，這個備戰的工作是每天在做，每一年都要做檢討的。我們有十年建軍構想，五年的兵力整建計畫，但是唯獨備戰計畫是每一年要修訂。這就是為什麼我們要做漢光演習，為什麼要做專精管道，為什麼要做基地訓練，這個成效、這個建設，就是為了備戰。所以不管達到沒有，那是未來的，能夠有最好，但是總比我們連計畫都沒有，那未來是遙遙無期的，但我們在等待未來當中，我們現在有狀況來，一定要可以因應，正因為我們有備戰的概念。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，我為什麼問這些問題？從戰略性的問題開始講，可能大家會覺得是理所當然，可能甚至會覺得是不證自明的，它不需要被證明的、它不需要被解釋的。其實我們談論到的時候通常都不是以目標，比方說目標的導向是什麼，而是都已經確認我們要做這件案子了，我們要建這一個計畫了，然後我們再來闡述怎麼樣完成這件事情。但是目標要高於手段，我們先知道它的震懾性在哪裡，我們才有辦法一直談下去。","其實部長可能不知道，在我們的這些各個不同的社群媒體或者是在電視上面，都有很多人在討論，甚至有所謂的潛艦無用論。所以我們必須透過國會的殿堂，讓你用部長的身分來跟民眾談，它為什麼有這樣的震懾性。我想未來不管下一任的部長是誰，他都有責任來做好這些風險的溝通。","我們不斷談2027年，有這麼多的智庫學者來談這件事情的時候，我可以發覺到我們的經濟成長率都是不斷的在上升，我們對臺灣的投資也不斷的在上升。這有兩種可能性，一種可能性是國人跟國際社會對我們的建軍，覺得絕對有實力，覺得有能力。第二種可能性就是，我們把所有的可能潛在的風險，直接把它看成是零。因為看成是零的話，所以對自己的自信會不斷的成長，但是這不可以成為常態。就是說事實上的威脅就在對面，所以我為什麼要先從潛艦的這個部分說它的震懾性是什麼？為什麼要有這個目的性？為什麼要在國會的殿堂上講出來？就是必須要讓民眾知道這是有可能發生的。衝突是有可能發生，我們必須要面對它。","這樣子的建軍，不管是剛才提到的是2,800多億，還是多少億，我認為有一定的震懾性都是必要的。可是這個時候我們看到，我們現在的國防預算大概是6,000多億，占我國的GDP只有2.5%。我不希望我們國家是像烏克蘭一樣，在2022年之前他們國家的國防預算占比，從1.5%開始逐年遞升到3%、2%左右，直到2022年之後才一舉提高到33%。33%在當初已經面臨到戰爭的時候，那時候的投入就沒有辦法像剛才部長提到的，面臨現在、面臨未來的威脅它都沒有辦法去因應了。","其實很多，包含澤倫斯基總統都不斷的提到，他們的防空系統不足，能夠防空的導彈也不足，沒有辦法面臨到俄羅斯這樣子的襲擊。我的意思是，遇到這樣子的狀況的時候，我們必須要事先考量，因為面臨中國的挑戰是比俄羅斯，不管是他們的生產力量，剛才你提到國防自主，中國也國防自主，他能夠不斷的補充他的彈藥，不斷補充他的各型式的不管是水面艦、水下艦，或者是這些空軍的武器建置。所以我必須請部長，或者是我們國防部的這些官員能夠來先預想一下，假設我們面臨到像烏克蘭一樣的狀況的時候，我們的國防預算要怎麼樣逐年增加？我們當然在承平時間是不可能會一舉直接超過10%以上，但是面臨到相對威脅跟臺灣類似的國家，比方說以色列，他們的國防占比是多少？比方說這些面臨在旁邊有直接的侵襲的可能性，他們的國防占比是多少？是像我們一樣2.5%嗎？部長是不是可以簡單的回應一下。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，假如遇到戰爭再討論國防預算要怎麼樣增加，白搭！沒有意義的。但我們現在做的就是預防戰爭發生，這是講真話。我們為什麼那邊要紛紛擾擾呢？臺灣是個多元的社會，每一個人他要怎麼講是他的自由，他的認知如何，我無權過問，也不能去干涉。但我們已經看到這種形態，假如他的內心有主宰的話，他不會有所動。像我剛剛很信心滿滿的跟委員講，假如你知道目標為何，然後每隔多久要建或者要編列預算，我們內心有主宰，不會因為你講一句話，有用沒用我們要考慮，對喔！他說沒有用，不會的，因為建軍跟備戰我們劃分很清楚。","假如你要讓全民通通有共同認知的話，我覺得國防部大概沒有很大的能力去改變這個，因為這已經牽扯到其他方面的領域了。不管有心無心的，我不去多做考慮，但是目前國軍在做的一切，就剛剛委員所質疑的，一旦俄羅斯戰爭這種形態發生了再編多少預算，我的答案是編沒有用，因為到時候已經來不及了。所以我們現在編列預算，現在籌獲的就是預防，不要讓那一幕發生。這個投資看划得來划不來，我覺得挹注一些經費不讓戰爭發生絕對值得的。"],["陳委員冠廷：讓現在的投資決定未來的威脅，如果現在少投資，那未來的威脅就會相對的增高。","部長，我接下來談一下跟潛艦比較沒有直接關係，但是跟國防部關於食安的議題。國防部關於食安的議題，當然就是在臺北市的寶林事件，那影響到其他這些包含供應我們的這些餐點或者是採購的部分。其實對於我們嘉義地區來說，那其實是很多無妄之災，我們已經聽到很多鄉親來反映，包含各種的這一些我們的農業。我們在嘉義不管是稻米產業或者是木耳等等，都有反映這些供應站它是進行統一採買，但是目前聽起來是因為這些事件之後，減少整體的大概一成左右。我們必須要強調一下，在臺北市發生的這個食安裡面，都沒有上述講到的那些食材，都沒有發生問題。衛福部也是正式的有討論過，也直接說在他們採檢的35項食材裡面，不包含這些的農產品。那對臺灣，對嘉義來說，特別是對我們的鄉鎮中埔鄉，它的木耳產量，基本上是全國大概是超過5成以上，所以說這一次的食安案件，其實對於國防部的部分，馬上的反映，其實我們是有一點憂心。我們還是希望我們的基層部隊，因應這個食安的部分，是要針對這樣的問題，而不是針對我們這樣的產品，那是沒有關聯的，是不是可以請部長來跟他們講一下？"],["邱部長國正：我了解，委員現在擔憂的很多事情，講白了就是無妄之災。"],["陳委員冠廷：對。"],["邱部長國正：但國軍這個副供站，它的成立是有規定的。我們有25個副供站，全國包含外離島，但這裡面的規範就有一條，就是當衛福部或有關單位一旦提出警訊了，我們絕對配合，但我們這個配合也就界定它講的幾個項目，它沒有講的，我們不會增加，就是菇菌類的，連黑木耳、白木耳什麼都加，我們沒有這樣子。而且現在辦伙是各單位的權責，我們不給它禁止，但我不能去鼓勵。我就跟委員講明很多都是無妄之災，國軍有很多都無妄之災啊！我們知道這個嚴重性，大為宣導可以，但是菜單是他們自己單位的決定，我不會去主導。"],["陳委員冠廷：宣導。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請賴士葆委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"151301","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"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00:00:40,943\n那我不想就技術細節來去討論因為這些技術細節說實在話對於民眾的溝通上面它除了增加理解的難度之外它是屬於包含軍中或者是真的是在研究這一部分的人所必須要去做技術細節的討論\n\n3\n00:00:42,823 --> 00:00:54,308\n但是對於風險溝通或者是對於我們民眾的溝通來講那我認為我們必須要很清晰的跟民眾談目的的導向是什麼我們從目的的導向來去討論為什麼需要潛艦因應什麼樣的挑戰我們需要潛艦\n\n4\n00:00:58,129 --> 00:01:12,636\n部長可不可以不是這樣對我說而是對大概所有的民眾來去簡單的讓他們知道我了解一個國家認為一個國家要做防衛的話它主要還是要靠國防的力量而國防力量包含了建軍跟備戰那將來要發展什麼樣戰爭這是一直在研判的\n\n5\n00:01:16,358 --> 00:01:39,311\n為了因應將來作戰,我們要自我防衛,達到這個目標,我們要發展不對稱的戰爭。什麼叫不對稱?就以我們比較簡單的裝備,對付你這個大但是不好發揮的力量,這就叫不對稱。那潛艦不是這樣子嗎?如果一艘潛艦在某個地方潛到水底邊,\n\n6\n00:01:40,111 --> 00:01:48,738\n所以潛艦它能夠發揮它不對稱的戰力它可以使出它的震懾的能量讓敵方的水面艦然後會覺得受到威脅那所以會三思來去決定是否要來進行對台灣的攻擊所以它是屬於\n\n7\n00:02:08,454 --> 00:02:33,249\n可以這樣講?從戰略到戰術都會發生一個相關關聯性我可以這樣講那為什麼要自主?為什麼在潛艦的這一個要國造而不是透過採購的方式?好跟委員報告我們講的有型戰力無型戰力不是什麼賣弄的學問有型戰力大家一聽就懂什麼叫有型戰力?就是你有徵收的能力\n\n8\n00:02:33,849 --> 00:02:58,818\n曾說到敵情以後你有傳達的通訊的能力第三你有通訊能力得到的敵情以後你要去把它給摧毀掉要有激動能力跟你要有足夠的火力這四樣以後還有一樣更重要的後支力什麼叫後支力後續支援的能力假如一個國家的裝備它沒有辦法自我來生產的話一切找的外購\n\n9\n00:02:59,958 --> 00:03:20,510\n外國裝備來打掉一樣掃一樣可是至於我這能耐建的話我打掉一架我另外再建一架這個就源源不斷的後之力這是重要有形戰略一環我想所以這國機國造國艦國造聽了以後看以後這個必要就很明朗了\n\n10\n00:03:21,192 --> 00:03:36,463\n部長所以在面對我們這樣的挑戰的時候可是我們現在面臨到的可能不是需要10年20年之後才會面臨到的挑戰就是各國的智庫都直接提到說一個關鍵的年份好像2027年那我們\n\n11\n00:03:37,303 --> 00:04:01,771\n採取國艦國造的這樣的狀況的話有沒有辦法去因應立即的威脅我跟委員報告任何建軍它是一個長遠的一個目標但是我們南寶想達到目標之前沒有戰事發生所以建軍跟備戰最大的差別在哪裡建軍是未來的戰你要籌貨跟軍備要支持一件件籌貨但是\n\n12\n00:04:04,132 --> 00:04:27,840\n備戰呢,你在籌貨當中敵人來了,我不能講我都還沒出來,你先不要過來,那不可能,所以這就備戰範疇。備戰就是說你現在你有什麼裝備,我們就要去應對。那我們在建軍以外,這個備戰工作是每天在做,每一年都要做檢討的。我有十年建軍構想,五年的兵力整建計畫,但是唯獨\n\n13\n00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:29,501\n﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷\n\n14\n00:04:59,661 --> 00:05:21,080\n謝謝部長我為什麼問這些問題從戰略性的問題開始講可能大家會覺得是理所當然可能甚至會覺得是不證自明的它不需要被證明的它不需要被解釋的那其實我們談論到的時候都是通常都是以不是以目標比方說目標的導向是什麼而是都已經確認我們要做這件案子了我們要建這一個計畫了\n\n15\n00:05:22,481 --> 00:05:22,601\n﹚陳冠廷\n\n16\n00:05:51,883 --> 00:05:55,666\n下一任的部長是誰他都有責任來做好這些風險的溝通\n\n17\n00:06:22,023 --> 00:06:22,523\n﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚\n\n18\n00:06:49,361 --> 00:07:17,031\n我認為有一定的正確性都是必要的可是這個時候我們看到說我們現在的國防預算大概是6000多與佔我們我國的GDP只有2.5%那我不希望說我們國家他是像烏克蘭一樣在正2022年之前他們國家的佔比國防預算佔比從1.5%開始逐年遞升到3%2%左右直到2022年之後才一舉提高到33%\n\n19\n00:07:20,069 --> 00:07:41,741\n33%在當初已經面臨到戰爭的時候你現在那時候的投入就沒有辦法像剛才部長你提到的面臨現在面臨未來的威脅他都沒有辦法去因應了那其實很多包含這一個責任司機總統他們都不斷的在提到說他們的防空系統不足能夠防空的導彈也不足沒有辦法面臨到俄羅斯的這樣子的襲擊\n\n20\n00:07:43,835 --> 00:08:05,348\n我的意思是說遇到這樣子的狀況的時候我們必須要事先考量因為面臨中國的挑戰是比俄羅斯不管是他們的生產力量剛才你提到國防自主中國也國防自主他能夠不斷的補充他的彈藥不斷補充他的各型式的不管是水面艦水下艦或者是這些空軍的武器建制\n\n21\n00:08:05,988 --> 00:08:29,998\n所以我必須要請部長或者是我們國防部的這些官員能夠來先預想一下假設我們面臨到像烏克蘭一樣的狀況的時候我們的國防預算要怎麼樣逐年增加我們當然在成平時間是不可能會一舉直接超過10%以上但是面臨到相對威脅跟台灣類似的國家比方說以色列他們的國防占比是多少\n\n22\n00:08:31,169 --> 00:08:33,370\n我跟委員報告喔,假如遇到戰爭在討論這個國防運動戰怎麼樣增加了,白搭,沒有意義的,但我們現在在做的就是預防戰爭發生\n\n23\n00:08:49,628 --> 00:09:13,902\n這是講真話。我們為什麼那麼樣紛紛擾擾的?台南這個地方社會是個多餘的社會。每一個人他要怎麼講,他自由。他的認知如何,我無權過問,也不能去干涉。但我們已經看到這種形態,假如他內心有主宰的話,他不會所動。我剛剛很信心滿滿跟委員講,假如你知道目標為何,\n\n24\n00:09:15,163 --> 00:09:15,283\n韓國瑜委員\n\n25\n00:09:35,822 --> 00:09:59,905\n但我覺得我國防部大概沒有很大能力去改變這個因為這已經牽扯到有些其他方面的領域了不管有心無心的我不去多做考慮但是我目前國軍在做的一切就剛剛委員所質疑的一旦惡武戰這種形態發生了再編多少預算我的答案就編沒有用了因為到時候已經來不及了\n\n26\n00:10:00,726 --> 00:10:06,291\n現在的投資決定未來的威脅如果現在少投資那未來的威脅就會相對的增高部長我接下來談一下\n\n27\n00:10:27,123 --> 00:10:48,095\n前件比較沒有直接關係但是是跟國防部關於實案的議題那關於實案的議題當然就是在台北市的這個保齡的事件那影響到其他這些包含這些供應我們的這些餐點或者是採購的部分那其實對於我們嘉義地區來說那其實是很多無望之災我們已經聽到很多鄉親來反映\n\n28\n00:10:49,696 --> 00:10:49,996\n衛福部也正式討論\n\n29\n00:11:19,389 --> 00:11:19,469\n陳冠廷\n\n30\n00:11:35,495 --> 00:11:37,776\n我了解,我現在擔憂很多事情講白就無望之災\n\n31\n00:12:02,364 --> 00:12:09,230\n但國軍這個複共戰它成立它是有規定的我們講25個複共戰全國包含外離島但這裡面的規範就有一條就是當衛福部或有關單位一旦提出警訊了我們絕對配合\n\n32\n00:12:21,420 --> 00:12:41,810\n但我這配合也就界定他講的幾個項目他沒有講的我們部會講的增加估計類的黑幕白幕我沒有這樣子而且現在半火是各單位的權責我們不給他禁止但我不能去鼓勵我就跟委員講明\n\n33\n00:12:42,850 --> 00:12:42,910\n：陳冠廷\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n503\t903\t今天是《潛艦國造》相關的機密的匯報\n23038\t40943\t那我不想就技術細節來去討論因為這些技術細節說實在話對於民眾的溝通上面它除了增加理解的難度之外它是屬於包含軍中或者是真的是在研究這一部分的人所必須要去做技術細節的討論\n42823\t54308\t但是對於風險溝通或者是對於我們民眾的溝通來講那我認為我們必須要很清晰的跟民眾談目的的導向是什麼我們從目的的導向來去討論為什麼需要潛艦因應什麼樣的挑戰我們需要潛艦\n58129\t72636\t部長可不可以不是這樣對我說而是對大概所有的民眾來去簡單的讓他們知道我了解一個國家認為一個國家要做防衛的話它主要還是要靠國防的力量而國防力量包含了建軍跟備戰那將來要發展什麼樣戰爭這是一直在研判的\n76358\t99311\t為了因應將來作戰,我們要自我防衛,達到這個目標,我們要發展不對稱的戰爭。什麼叫不對稱?就以我們比較簡單的裝備,對付你這個大但是不好發揮的力量,這就叫不對稱。那潛艦不是這樣子嗎?如果一艘潛艦在某個地方潛到水底邊,\n100111\t108738\t所以潛艦它能夠發揮它不對稱的戰力它可以使出它的震懾的能量讓敵方的水面艦然後會覺得受到威脅那所以會三思來去決定是否要來進行對台灣的攻擊所以它是屬於\n128454\t153249\t可以這樣講?從戰略到戰術都會發生一個相關關聯性我可以這樣講那為什麼要自主?為什麼在潛艦的這一個要國造而不是透過採購的方式?好跟委員報告我們講的有型戰力無型戰力不是什麼賣弄的學問有型戰力大家一聽就懂什麼叫有型戰力?就是你有徵收的能力\n153849\t178818\t曾說到敵情以後你有傳達的通訊的能力第三你有通訊能力得到的敵情以後你要去把它給摧毀掉要有激動能力跟你要有足夠的火力這四樣以後還有一樣更重要的後支力什麼叫後支力後續支援的能力假如一個國家的裝備它沒有辦法自我來生產的話一切找的外購\n179958\t200510\t外國裝備來打掉一樣掃一樣可是至於我這能耐建的話我打掉一架我另外再建一架這個就源源不斷的後之力這是重要有形戰略一環我想所以這國機國造國艦國造聽了以後看以後這個必要就很明朗了\n201192\t216463\t部長所以在面對我們這樣的挑戰的時候可是我們現在面臨到的可能不是需要10年20年之後才會面臨到的挑戰就是各國的智庫都直接提到說一個關鍵的年份好像2027年那我們\n217303\t241771\t採取國艦國造的這樣的狀況的話有沒有辦法去因應立即的威脅我跟委員報告任何建軍它是一個長遠的一個目標但是我們南寶想達到目標之前沒有戰事發生所以建軍跟備戰最大的差別在哪裡建軍是未來的戰你要籌貨跟軍備要支持一件件籌貨但是\n244132\t267840\t備戰呢,你在籌貨當中敵人來了,我不能講我都還沒出來,你先不要過來,那不可能,所以這就備戰範疇。備戰就是說你現在你有什麼裝備,我們就要去應對。那我們在建軍以外,這個備戰工作是每天在做,每一年都要做檢討的。我有十年建軍構想,五年的兵力整建計畫,但是唯獨\n268760\t269501\t﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷\n299661\t321080\t謝謝部長我為什麼問這些問題從戰略性的問題開始講可能大家會覺得是理所當然可能甚至會覺得是不證自明的它不需要被證明的它不需要被解釋的那其實我們談論到的時候都是通常都是以不是以目標比方說目標的導向是什麼而是都已經確認我們要做這件案子了我們要建這一個計畫了\n322481\t322601\t﹚陳冠廷\n351883\t355666\t下一任的部長是誰他都有責任來做好這些風險的溝通\n382023\t382523\t﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚\n409361\t437031\t我認為有一定的正確性都是必要的可是這個時候我們看到說我們現在的國防預算大概是6000多與佔我們我國的GDP只有2.5%那我不希望說我們國家他是像烏克蘭一樣在正2022年之前他們國家的佔比國防預算佔比從1.5%開始逐年遞升到3%2%左右直到2022年之後才一舉提高到33%\n440069\t461741\t33%在當初已經面臨到戰爭的時候你現在那時候的投入就沒有辦法像剛才部長你提到的面臨現在面臨未來的威脅他都沒有辦法去因應了那其實很多包含這一個責任司機總統他們都不斷的在提到說他們的防空系統不足能夠防空的導彈也不足沒有辦法面臨到俄羅斯的這樣子的襲擊\n463835\t485348\t我的意思是說遇到這樣子的狀況的時候我們必須要事先考量因為面臨中國的挑戰是比俄羅斯不管是他們的生產力量剛才你提到國防自主中國也國防自主他能夠不斷的補充他的彈藥不斷補充他的各型式的不管是水面艦水下艦或者是這些空軍的武器建制\n485988\t509998\t所以我必須要請部長或者是我們國防部的這些官員能夠來先預想一下假設我們面臨到像烏克蘭一樣的狀況的時候我們的國防預算要怎麼樣逐年增加我們當然在成平時間是不可能會一舉直接超過10%以上但是面臨到相對威脅跟台灣類似的國家比方說以色列他們的國防占比是多少\n511169\t513370\t我跟委員報告喔,假如遇到戰爭在討論這個國防運動戰怎麼樣增加了,白搭,沒有意義的,但我們現在在做的就是預防戰爭發生\n529628\t553902\t這是講真話。我們為什麼那麼樣紛紛擾擾的?台南這個地方社會是個多餘的社會。每一個人他要怎麼講,他自由。他的認知如何,我無權過問,也不能去干涉。但我們已經看到這種形態,假如他內心有主宰的話,他不會所動。我剛剛很信心滿滿跟委員講,假如你知道目標為何,\n555163\t555283\t韓國瑜委員\n575822\t599905\t但我覺得我國防部大概沒有很大能力去改變這個因為這已經牽扯到有些其他方面的領域了不管有心無心的我不去多做考慮但是我目前國軍在做的一切就剛剛委員所質疑的一旦惡武戰這種形態發生了再編多少預算我的答案就編沒有用了因為到時候已經來不及了\n600726\t606291\t現在的投資決定未來的威脅如果現在少投資那未來的威脅就會相對的增高部長我接下來談一下\n627123\t648095\t前件比較沒有直接關係但是是跟國防部關於實案的議題那關於實案的議題當然就是在台北市的這個保齡的事件那影響到其他這些包含這些供應我們的這些餐點或者是採購的部分那其實對於我們嘉義地區來說那其實是很多無望之災我們已經聽到很多鄉親來反映\n649696\t649996\t衛福部也正式討論\n679389\t679469\t陳冠廷\n695495\t697776\t我了解,我現在擔憂很多事情講白就無望之災\n722364\t729230\t但國軍這個複共戰它成立它是有規定的我們講25個複共戰全國包含外離島但這裡面的規範就有一條就是當衛福部或有關單位一旦提出警訊了我們絕對配合\n741420\t761810\t但我這配合也就界定他講的幾個項目他沒有講的我們部會講的增加估計類的黑幕白幕我沒有這樣子而且現在半火是各單位的權責我們不給他禁止但我不能去鼓勵我就跟委員講明\n762850\t762910\t：陳冠廷\n","txt":"今天是《潛艦國造》相關的機密的匯報\n那我不想就技術細節來去討論因為這些技術細節說實在話對於民眾的溝通上面它除了增加理解的難度之外它是屬於包含軍中或者是真的是在研究這一部分的人所必須要去做技術細節的討論\n但是對於風險溝通或者是對於我們民眾的溝通來講那我認為我們必須要很清晰的跟民眾談目的的導向是什麼我們從目的的導向來去討論為什麼需要潛艦因應什麼樣的挑戰我們需要潛艦\n部長可不可以不是這樣對我說而是對大概所有的民眾來去簡單的讓他們知道我了解一個國家認為一個國家要做防衛的話它主要還是要靠國防的力量而國防力量包含了建軍跟備戰那將來要發展什麼樣戰爭這是一直在研判的\n為了因應將來作戰,我們要自我防衛,達到這個目標,我們要發展不對稱的戰爭。什麼叫不對稱?就以我們比較簡單的裝備,對付你這個大但是不好發揮的力量,這就叫不對稱。那潛艦不是這樣子嗎?如果一艘潛艦在某個地方潛到水底邊,\n所以潛艦它能夠發揮它不對稱的戰力它可以使出它的震懾的能量讓敵方的水面艦然後會覺得受到威脅那所以會三思來去決定是否要來進行對台灣的攻擊所以它是屬於\n可以這樣講?從戰略到戰術都會發生一個相關關聯性我可以這樣講那為什麼要自主?為什麼在潛艦的這一個要國造而不是透過採購的方式?好跟委員報告我們講的有型戰力無型戰力不是什麼賣弄的學問有型戰力大家一聽就懂什麼叫有型戰力?就是你有徵收的能力\n曾說到敵情以後你有傳達的通訊的能力第三你有通訊能力得到的敵情以後你要去把它給摧毀掉要有激動能力跟你要有足夠的火力這四樣以後還有一樣更重要的後支力什麼叫後支力後續支援的能力假如一個國家的裝備它沒有辦法自我來生產的話一切找的外購\n外國裝備來打掉一樣掃一樣可是至於我這能耐建的話我打掉一架我另外再建一架這個就源源不斷的後之力這是重要有形戰略一環我想所以這國機國造國艦國造聽了以後看以後這個必要就很明朗了\n部長所以在面對我們這樣的挑戰的時候可是我們現在面臨到的可能不是需要10年20年之後才會面臨到的挑戰就是各國的智庫都直接提到說一個關鍵的年份好像2027年那我們\n採取國艦國造的這樣的狀況的話有沒有辦法去因應立即的威脅我跟委員報告任何建軍它是一個長遠的一個目標但是我們南寶想達到目標之前沒有戰事發生所以建軍跟備戰最大的差別在哪裡建軍是未來的戰你要籌貨跟軍備要支持一件件籌貨但是\n備戰呢,你在籌貨當中敵人來了,我不能講我都還沒出來,你先不要過來,那不可能,所以這就備戰範疇。備戰就是說你現在你有什麼裝備,我們就要去應對。那我們在建軍以外,這個備戰工作是每天在做,每一年都要做檢討的。我有十年建軍構想,五年的兵力整建計畫,但是唯獨\n﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷\n謝謝部長我為什麼問這些問題從戰略性的問題開始講可能大家會覺得是理所當然可能甚至會覺得是不證自明的它不需要被證明的它不需要被解釋的那其實我們談論到的時候都是通常都是以不是以目標比方說目標的導向是什麼而是都已經確認我們要做這件案子了我們要建這一個計畫了\n﹚陳冠廷\n下一任的部長是誰他都有責任來做好這些風險的溝通\n﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚\n我認為有一定的正確性都是必要的可是這個時候我們看到說我們現在的國防預算大概是6000多與佔我們我國的GDP只有2.5%那我不希望說我們國家他是像烏克蘭一樣在正2022年之前他們國家的佔比國防預算佔比從1.5%開始逐年遞升到3%2%左右直到2022年之後才一舉提高到33%\n33%在當初已經面臨到戰爭的時候你現在那時候的投入就沒有辦法像剛才部長你提到的面臨現在面臨未來的威脅他都沒有辦法去因應了那其實很多包含這一個責任司機總統他們都不斷的在提到說他們的防空系統不足能夠防空的導彈也不足沒有辦法面臨到俄羅斯的這樣子的襲擊\n我的意思是說遇到這樣子的狀況的時候我們必須要事先考量因為面臨中國的挑戰是比俄羅斯不管是他們的生產力量剛才你提到國防自主中國也國防自主他能夠不斷的補充他的彈藥不斷補充他的各型式的不管是水面艦水下艦或者是這些空軍的武器建制\n所以我必須要請部長或者是我們國防部的這些官員能夠來先預想一下假設我們面臨到像烏克蘭一樣的狀況的時候我們的國防預算要怎麼樣逐年增加我們當然在成平時間是不可能會一舉直接超過10%以上但是面臨到相對威脅跟台灣類似的國家比方說以色列他們的國防占比是多少\n我跟委員報告喔,假如遇到戰爭在討論這個國防運動戰怎麼樣增加了,白搭,沒有意義的,但我們現在在做的就是預防戰爭發生\n這是講真話。我們為什麼那麼樣紛紛擾擾的?台南這個地方社會是個多餘的社會。每一個人他要怎麼講,他自由。他的認知如何,我無權過問,也不能去干涉。但我們已經看到這種形態,假如他內心有主宰的話,他不會所動。我剛剛很信心滿滿跟委員講,假如你知道目標為何,\n韓國瑜委員\n但我覺得我國防部大概沒有很大能力去改變這個因為這已經牽扯到有些其他方面的領域了不管有心無心的我不去多做考慮但是我目前國軍在做的一切就剛剛委員所質疑的一旦惡武戰這種形態發生了再編多少預算我的答案就編沒有用了因為到時候已經來不及了\n現在的投資決定未來的威脅如果現在少投資那未來的威脅就會相對的增高部長我接下來談一下\n前件比較沒有直接關係但是是跟國防部關於實案的議題那關於實案的議題當然就是在台北市的這個保齡的事件那影響到其他這些包含這些供應我們的這些餐點或者是採購的部分那其實對於我們嘉義地區來說那其實是很多無望之災我們已經聽到很多鄉親來反映\n衛福部也正式討論\n陳冠廷\n我了解,我現在擔憂很多事情講白就無望之災\n但國軍這個複共戰它成立它是有規定的我們講25個複共戰全國包含外離島但這裡面的規範就有一條就是當衛福部或有關單位一旦提出警訊了我們絕對配合\n但我這配合也就界定他講的幾個項目他沒有講的我們部會講的增加估計類的黑幕白幕我沒有這樣子而且現在半火是各單位的權責我們不給他禁止但我不能去鼓勵我就跟委員講明\n：陳冠廷\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.503 --> 00:00.903\n今天是《潛艦國造》相關的機密的匯報\n\n00:23.038 --> 00:40.943\n那我不想就技術細節來去討論因為這些技術細節說實在話對於民眾的溝通上面它除了增加理解的難度之外它是屬於包含軍中或者是真的是在研究這一部分的人所必須要去做技術細節的討論\n\n00:42.823 --> 00:54.308\n但是對於風險溝通或者是對於我們民眾的溝通來講那我認為我們必須要很清晰的跟民眾談目的的導向是什麼我們從目的的導向來去討論為什麼需要潛艦因應什麼樣的挑戰我們需要潛艦\n\n00:58.129 --> 01:12.636\n部長可不可以不是這樣對我說而是對大概所有的民眾來去簡單的讓他們知道我了解一個國家認為一個國家要做防衛的話它主要還是要靠國防的力量而國防力量包含了建軍跟備戰那將來要發展什麼樣戰爭這是一直在研判的\n\n01:16.358 --> 01:39.311\n為了因應將來作戰,我們要自我防衛,達到這個目標,我們要發展不對稱的戰爭。什麼叫不對稱?就以我們比較簡單的裝備,對付你這個大但是不好發揮的力量,這就叫不對稱。那潛艦不是這樣子嗎?如果一艘潛艦在某個地方潛到水底邊,\n\n01:40.111 --> 01:48.738\n所以潛艦它能夠發揮它不對稱的戰力它可以使出它的震懾的能量讓敵方的水面艦然後會覺得受到威脅那所以會三思來去決定是否要來進行對台灣的攻擊所以它是屬於\n\n02:08.454 --> 02:33.249\n可以這樣講?從戰略到戰術都會發生一個相關關聯性我可以這樣講那為什麼要自主?為什麼在潛艦的這一個要國造而不是透過採購的方式?好跟委員報告我們講的有型戰力無型戰力不是什麼賣弄的學問有型戰力大家一聽就懂什麼叫有型戰力?就是你有徵收的能力\n\n02:33.849 --> 02:58.818\n曾說到敵情以後你有傳達的通訊的能力第三你有通訊能力得到的敵情以後你要去把它給摧毀掉要有激動能力跟你要有足夠的火力這四樣以後還有一樣更重要的後支力什麼叫後支力後續支援的能力假如一個國家的裝備它沒有辦法自我來生產的話一切找的外購\n\n02:59.958 --> 03:20.510\n外國裝備來打掉一樣掃一樣可是至於我這能耐建的話我打掉一架我另外再建一架這個就源源不斷的後之力這是重要有形戰略一環我想所以這國機國造國艦國造聽了以後看以後這個必要就很明朗了\n\n03:21.192 --> 03:36.463\n部長所以在面對我們這樣的挑戰的時候可是我們現在面臨到的可能不是需要10年20年之後才會面臨到的挑戰就是各國的智庫都直接提到說一個關鍵的年份好像2027年那我們\n\n03:37.303 --> 04:01.771\n採取國艦國造的這樣的狀況的話有沒有辦法去因應立即的威脅我跟委員報告任何建軍它是一個長遠的一個目標但是我們南寶想達到目標之前沒有戰事發生所以建軍跟備戰最大的差別在哪裡建軍是未來的戰你要籌貨跟軍備要支持一件件籌貨但是\n\n04:04.132 --> 04:27.840\n備戰呢,你在籌貨當中敵人來了,我不能講我都還沒出來,你先不要過來,那不可能,所以這就備戰範疇。備戰就是說你現在你有什麼裝備,我們就要去應對。那我們在建軍以外,這個備戰工作是每天在做,每一年都要做檢討的。我有十年建軍構想,五年的兵力整建計畫,但是唯獨\n\n04:28.760 --> 04:29.501\n﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷\n\n04:59.661 --> 05:21.080\n謝謝部長我為什麼問這些問題從戰略性的問題開始講可能大家會覺得是理所當然可能甚至會覺得是不證自明的它不需要被證明的它不需要被解釋的那其實我們談論到的時候都是通常都是以不是以目標比方說目標的導向是什麼而是都已經確認我們要做這件案子了我們要建這一個計畫了\n\n05:22.481 --> 05:22.601\n﹚陳冠廷\n\n05:51.883 --> 05:55.666\n下一任的部長是誰他都有責任來做好這些風險的溝通\n\n06:22.023 --> 06:22.523\n﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚\n\n06:49.361 --> 07:17.031\n我認為有一定的正確性都是必要的可是這個時候我們看到說我們現在的國防預算大概是6000多與佔我們我國的GDP只有2.5%那我不希望說我們國家他是像烏克蘭一樣在正2022年之前他們國家的佔比國防預算佔比從1.5%開始逐年遞升到3%2%左右直到2022年之後才一舉提高到33%\n\n07:20.069 --> 07:41.741\n33%在當初已經面臨到戰爭的時候你現在那時候的投入就沒有辦法像剛才部長你提到的面臨現在面臨未來的威脅他都沒有辦法去因應了那其實很多包含這一個責任司機總統他們都不斷的在提到說他們的防空系統不足能夠防空的導彈也不足沒有辦法面臨到俄羅斯的這樣子的襲擊\n\n07:43.835 --> 08:05.348\n我的意思是說遇到這樣子的狀況的時候我們必須要事先考量因為面臨中國的挑戰是比俄羅斯不管是他們的生產力量剛才你提到國防自主中國也國防自主他能夠不斷的補充他的彈藥不斷補充他的各型式的不管是水面艦水下艦或者是這些空軍的武器建制\n\n08:05.988 --> 08:29.998\n所以我必須要請部長或者是我們國防部的這些官員能夠來先預想一下假設我們面臨到像烏克蘭一樣的狀況的時候我們的國防預算要怎麼樣逐年增加我們當然在成平時間是不可能會一舉直接超過10%以上但是面臨到相對威脅跟台灣類似的國家比方說以色列他們的國防占比是多少\n\n08:31.169 --> 08:33.370\n我跟委員報告喔,假如遇到戰爭在討論這個國防運動戰怎麼樣增加了,白搭,沒有意義的,但我們現在在做的就是預防戰爭發生\n\n08:49.628 --> 09:13.902\n這是講真話。我們為什麼那麼樣紛紛擾擾的?台南這個地方社會是個多餘的社會。每一個人他要怎麼講,他自由。他的認知如何,我無權過問,也不能去干涉。但我們已經看到這種形態,假如他內心有主宰的話,他不會所動。我剛剛很信心滿滿跟委員講,假如你知道目標為何,\n\n09:15.163 --> 09:15.283\n韓國瑜委員\n\n09:35.822 --> 09:59.905\n但我覺得我國防部大概沒有很大能力去改變這個因為這已經牽扯到有些其他方面的領域了不管有心無心的我不去多做考慮但是我目前國軍在做的一切就剛剛委員所質疑的一旦惡武戰這種形態發生了再編多少預算我的答案就編沒有用了因為到時候已經來不及了\n\n10:00.726 --> 10:06.291\n現在的投資決定未來的威脅如果現在少投資那未來的威脅就會相對的增高部長我接下來談一下\n\n10:27.123 --> 10:48.095\n前件比較沒有直接關係但是是跟國防部關於實案的議題那關於實案的議題當然就是在台北市的這個保齡的事件那影響到其他這些包含這些供應我們的這些餐點或者是採購的部分那其實對於我們嘉義地區來說那其實是很多無望之災我們已經聽到很多鄉親來反映\n\n10:49.696 --> 10:49.996\n衛福部也正式討論\n\n11:19.389 --> 11:19.469\n陳冠廷\n\n11:35.495 --> 11:37.776\n我了解,我現在擔憂很多事情講白就無望之災\n\n12:02.364 --> 12:09.230\n但國軍這個複共戰它成立它是有規定的我們講25個複共戰全國包含外離島但這裡面的規範就有一條就是當衛福部或有關單位一旦提出警訊了我們絕對配合\n\n12:21.420 --> 12:41.810\n但我這配合也就界定他講的幾個項目他沒有講的我們部會講的增加估計類的黑幕白幕我沒有這樣子而且現在半火是各單位的權責我們不給他禁止但我不能去鼓勵我就跟委員講明\n\n12:42.850 --> 12:42.910\n：陳冠廷\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.503,"end":0.903,"text":"今天是《潛艦國造》相關的機密的匯報"},{"start":23.038,"end":40.943,"text":"那我不想就技術細節來去討論因為這些技術細節說實在話對於民眾的溝通上面它除了增加理解的難度之外它是屬於包含軍中或者是真的是在研究這一部分的人所必須要去做技術細節的討論"},{"start":42.823,"end":54.308,"text":"但是對於風險溝通或者是對於我們民眾的溝通來講那我認為我們必須要很清晰的跟民眾談目的的導向是什麼我們從目的的導向來去討論為什麼需要潛艦因應什麼樣的挑戰我們需要潛艦"},{"start":58.129,"end":72.636,"text":"部長可不可以不是這樣對我說而是對大概所有的民眾來去簡單的讓他們知道我了解一個國家認為一個國家要做防衛的話它主要還是要靠國防的力量而國防力量包含了建軍跟備戰那將來要發展什麼樣戰爭這是一直在研判的"},{"start":76.358,"end":99.311,"text":"為了因應將來作戰,我們要自我防衛,達到這個目標,我們要發展不對稱的戰爭。什麼叫不對稱?就以我們比較簡單的裝備,對付你這個大但是不好發揮的力量,這就叫不對稱。那潛艦不是這樣子嗎?如果一艘潛艦在某個地方潛到水底邊,"},{"start":100.111,"end":108.738,"text":"所以潛艦它能夠發揮它不對稱的戰力它可以使出它的震懾的能量讓敵方的水面艦然後會覺得受到威脅那所以會三思來去決定是否要來進行對台灣的攻擊所以它是屬於"},{"start":128.454,"end":153.249,"text":"可以這樣講?從戰略到戰術都會發生一個相關關聯性我可以這樣講那為什麼要自主?為什麼在潛艦的這一個要國造而不是透過採購的方式?好跟委員報告我們講的有型戰力無型戰力不是什麼賣弄的學問有型戰力大家一聽就懂什麼叫有型戰力?就是你有徵收的能力"},{"start":153.849,"end":178.818,"text":"曾說到敵情以後你有傳達的通訊的能力第三你有通訊能力得到的敵情以後你要去把它給摧毀掉要有激動能力跟你要有足夠的火力這四樣以後還有一樣更重要的後支力什麼叫後支力後續支援的能力假如一個國家的裝備它沒有辦法自我來生產的話一切找的外購"},{"start":179.958,"end":200.51,"text":"外國裝備來打掉一樣掃一樣可是至於我這能耐建的話我打掉一架我另外再建一架這個就源源不斷的後之力這是重要有形戰略一環我想所以這國機國造國艦國造聽了以後看以後這個必要就很明朗了"},{"start":201.192,"end":216.463,"text":"部長所以在面對我們這樣的挑戰的時候可是我們現在面臨到的可能不是需要10年20年之後才會面臨到的挑戰就是各國的智庫都直接提到說一個關鍵的年份好像2027年那我們"},{"start":217.303,"end":241.771,"text":"採取國艦國造的這樣的狀況的話有沒有辦法去因應立即的威脅我跟委員報告任何建軍它是一個長遠的一個目標但是我們南寶想達到目標之前沒有戰事發生所以建軍跟備戰最大的差別在哪裡建軍是未來的戰你要籌貨跟軍備要支持一件件籌貨但是"},{"start":244.132,"end":267.84,"text":"備戰呢,你在籌貨當中敵人來了,我不能講我都還沒出來,你先不要過來,那不可能,所以這就備戰範疇。備戰就是說你現在你有什麼裝備,我們就要去應對。那我們在建軍以外,這個備戰工作是每天在做,每一年都要做檢討的。我有十年建軍構想,五年的兵力整建計畫,但是唯獨"},{"start":268.76,"end":269.501,"text":"﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷"},{"start":299.661,"end":321.08,"text":"謝謝部長我為什麼問這些問題從戰略性的問題開始講可能大家會覺得是理所當然可能甚至會覺得是不證自明的它不需要被證明的它不需要被解釋的那其實我們談論到的時候都是通常都是以不是以目標比方說目標的導向是什麼而是都已經確認我們要做這件案子了我們要建這一個計畫了"},{"start":322.481,"end":322.601,"text":"﹚陳冠廷"},{"start":351.883,"end":355.666,"text":"下一任的部長是誰他都有責任來做好這些風險的溝通"},{"start":382.023,"end":382.523,"text":"﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚"},{"start":409.361,"end":437.031,"text":"我認為有一定的正確性都是必要的可是這個時候我們看到說我們現在的國防預算大概是6000多與佔我們我國的GDP只有2.5%那我不希望說我們國家他是像烏克蘭一樣在正2022年之前他們國家的佔比國防預算佔比從1.5%開始逐年遞升到3%2%左右直到2022年之後才一舉提高到33%"},{"start":440.069,"end":461.741,"text":"33%在當初已經面臨到戰爭的時候你現在那時候的投入就沒有辦法像剛才部長你提到的面臨現在面臨未來的威脅他都沒有辦法去因應了那其實很多包含這一個責任司機總統他們都不斷的在提到說他們的防空系統不足能夠防空的導彈也不足沒有辦法面臨到俄羅斯的這樣子的襲擊"},{"start":463.835,"end":485.348,"text":"我的意思是說遇到這樣子的狀況的時候我們必須要事先考量因為面臨中國的挑戰是比俄羅斯不管是他們的生產力量剛才你提到國防自主中國也國防自主他能夠不斷的補充他的彈藥不斷補充他的各型式的不管是水面艦水下艦或者是這些空軍的武器建制"},{"start":485.988,"end":509.998,"text":"所以我必須要請部長或者是我們國防部的這些官員能夠來先預想一下假設我們面臨到像烏克蘭一樣的狀況的時候我們的國防預算要怎麼樣逐年增加我們當然在成平時間是不可能會一舉直接超過10%以上但是面臨到相對威脅跟台灣類似的國家比方說以色列他們的國防占比是多少"},{"start":511.169,"end":513.37,"text":"我跟委員報告喔,假如遇到戰爭在討論這個國防運動戰怎麼樣增加了,白搭,沒有意義的,但我們現在在做的就是預防戰爭發生"},{"start":529.628,"end":553.902,"text":"這是講真話。我們為什麼那麼樣紛紛擾擾的?台南這個地方社會是個多餘的社會。每一個人他要怎麼講,他自由。他的認知如何,我無權過問,也不能去干涉。但我們已經看到這種形態,假如他內心有主宰的話,他不會所動。我剛剛很信心滿滿跟委員講,假如你知道目標為何,"},{"start":555.163,"end":555.283,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":575.822,"end":599.905,"text":"但我覺得我國防部大概沒有很大能力去改變這個因為這已經牽扯到有些其他方面的領域了不管有心無心的我不去多做考慮但是我目前國軍在做的一切就剛剛委員所質疑的一旦惡武戰這種形態發生了再編多少預算我的答案就編沒有用了因為到時候已經來不及了"},{"start":600.726,"end":606.291,"text":"現在的投資決定未來的威脅如果現在少投資那未來的威脅就會相對的增高部長我接下來談一下"},{"start":627.123,"end":648.095,"text":"前件比較沒有直接關係但是是跟國防部關於實案的議題那關於實案的議題當然就是在台北市的這個保齡的事件那影響到其他這些包含這些供應我們的這些餐點或者是採購的部分那其實對於我們嘉義地區來說那其實是很多無望之災我們已經聽到很多鄉親來反映"},{"start":649.696,"end":649.996,"text":"衛福部也正式討論"},{"start":679.389,"end":679.469,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":695.495,"end":697.776,"text":"我了解,我現在擔憂很多事情講白就無望之災"},{"start":722.364,"end":729.23,"text":"但國軍這個複共戰它成立它是有規定的我們講25個複共戰全國包含外離島但這裡面的規範就有一條就是當衛福部或有關單位一旦提出警訊了我們絕對配合"},{"start":741.42,"end":761.81,"text":"但我這配合也就界定他講的幾個項目他沒有講的我們部會講的增加估計類的黑幕白幕我沒有這樣子而且現在半火是各單位的權責我們不給他禁止但我不能去鼓勵我就跟委員講明"},{"start":762.85,"end":762.91,"text":"：陳冠廷"}]}}}}